WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.600 Hello, everybody, and welcome to the very first podcast in my 2 00:00:03.600 --> 00:00:07.440 no new show called Inclusion Bites. In this series, I'll be 3 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:11.095 interviewing a number of amazing people simply having a conversation 4 00:00:11.635 --> 00:00:15.475 around the subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a 5 00:00:15.475 --> 00:00:19.260 better place for everyone to thrive in. Would like to join me in the 6 00:00:19.260 --> 00:00:21.599 future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seachangehappen.co.uk. 7 00:00:24.699 --> 00:00:28.244 You'll be at a catch up with all of the shows on iTunes, Spotify, and 8 00:00:28.244 --> 00:00:32.005 all the user places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf, and let's 9 00:00:32.005 --> 00:00:35.710 get going. Well, today, I have the absolute honor and privilege 10 00:00:35.710 --> 00:00:39.550 to be joined by Dr Lynda Shaw. I first met Lynda at 11 00:00:39.550 --> 00:00:43.305 a mess musical, at the Professional Speaking Association, and was recently 12 00:00:43.305 --> 00:00:47.145 amused by her entertaining the audience in a musical comedy sketch playing 13 00:00:47.145 --> 00:00:50.990 in the triangle in a different dialect. I asked Lynda 14 00:00:50.990 --> 00:00:54.610 to describe her superpower, as she said, her superpower 15 00:00:54.990 --> 00:00:58.825 is always loving change while the rest of us try to 16 00:00:58.825 --> 00:01:02.285 resist change, this is something Lynda does to great effect. 17 00:01:03.225 --> 00:01:06.285 And today, we're gonna tackle the topic entitled 18 00:01:06.960 --> 00:01:10.640 It's the brain stupid. So Dr Lynda Shaw, good 19 00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:14.320 morning. How are you? Good morning, Joanne. Really good. Thank you. How are 20 00:01:14.320 --> 00:01:17.905 you? I'm fantastic. Thank you. Really looking forward to this. We planned this a 21 00:01:17.905 --> 00:01:21.745 couple of months ago, and I'm really, really excited to, finally have the 22 00:01:21.745 --> 00:01:25.450 opportunity to catch up. So do you want to tell me and 23 00:01:25.450 --> 00:01:29.210 the listeners a bit more about yourself? So who is Dr Lynda 24 00:01:29.210 --> 00:01:32.830 Shaw? Yep. I'm, I've got a doctorate in neuroscience. 25 00:01:33.505 --> 00:01:37.284 My, specialty is unconscious processing of emotion, 26 00:01:37.345 --> 00:01:41.185 and it's morphed into, other things as well. 27 00:01:41.185 --> 00:01:44.750 Basically, because I had 3 businesses before I went back to academia, 28 00:01:45.370 --> 00:01:49.210 and I've got a psychology in my background. So, my biggest 29 00:01:49.210 --> 00:01:52.575 business, I had 2, 20 staff and 2000 members of a health 30 00:01:52.575 --> 00:01:55.875 club. So I sort of get what it's like 31 00:01:56.335 --> 00:01:58.755 to manage people to understand 32 00:01:59.970 --> 00:02:03.570 how to motivate them, how to dis how to create decent 33 00:02:03.570 --> 00:02:07.305 decision making processes, how to judgments, all of those things 34 00:02:07.705 --> 00:02:11.165 that the cognitive brain does. So my discipline is cognitive 35 00:02:11.625 --> 00:02:15.225 neuroscience. So I basically am a specialist in how the brain 36 00:02:15.225 --> 00:02:17.950 changes behavior and behavior changes the brain. 37 00:02:18.890 --> 00:02:22.269 And because of that, what people don't realize 38 00:02:22.730 --> 00:02:25.390 is just how much control they really have. 39 00:02:26.504 --> 00:02:30.284 They can control their behavior to a certain extent, not completely, 40 00:02:31.224 --> 00:02:34.985 but to a certain extent, more than they realize if they just were aware 41 00:02:34.985 --> 00:02:38.670 of it, understood how to do it, how to, 42 00:02:38.970 --> 00:02:42.810 how to change willingly. So that's what I rang on about when I go 43 00:02:42.810 --> 00:02:46.625 around to companies and senior people in on in the city and such 44 00:02:46.625 --> 00:02:49.605 like. So it's almost like saying to yourself, 45 00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:54.840 before something comes out your mouth before a thought becomes locked in, how 46 00:02:54.840 --> 00:02:58.120 can I change that thought? How can I reframe that? How can I nudge it 47 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:01.855 into a different orbit maybe? Yeah. I mean, as soon as 48 00:03:01.855 --> 00:03:05.315 you, create a different way of thinking on a particular 49 00:03:05.375 --> 00:03:09.150 topic or a particular person or particular object, you'll actually 50 00:03:09.150 --> 00:03:12.989 rewire the brain. You've lead our new neural pathways and new 51 00:03:12.989 --> 00:03:16.525 connections, new synapses, new dendrites, new everything. So it 52 00:03:16.685 --> 00:03:20.205 and then if you keep rolling that thought, you 53 00:03:20.205 --> 00:03:23.965 will strengthen it, and it will become your default thought instead of 54 00:03:23.965 --> 00:03:27.670 the more destructive one. So if we Yeah. 55 00:03:27.670 --> 00:03:31.510 So, you know, we are we can do that, and we do it all 56 00:03:31.510 --> 00:03:35.265 the time. But what people don't realize is they can do it deliberately. 57 00:03:36.125 --> 00:03:39.644 And by doing it deliberately, you have that you're in more in control of your 58 00:03:39.644 --> 00:03:43.160 destiny, which is really cool. So I I heard 59 00:03:43.160 --> 00:03:46.780 recently that most of the biases we have are learned. 60 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:51.340 Okay. We we do have some protection type biases, some subliminal 61 00:03:51.560 --> 00:03:55.405 reptilian buses, but we do learn a lot of biases, over the 62 00:03:55.405 --> 00:03:56.945 course of our lifetime, don't we? 63 00:03:58.105 --> 00:04:01.800 Wellbeing has come from heuristics. 64 00:04:02.340 --> 00:04:05.220 Heuristics is a method the brain uses to, 65 00:04:05.780 --> 00:04:09.335 create shortcuts to lay down information because 66 00:04:09.335 --> 00:04:12.875 we we are bombarded with this cacophony of stimuli 67 00:04:13.735 --> 00:04:17.570 all the time, and the brain can't cope with it. So it relegates everything 68 00:04:17.570 --> 00:04:21.250 to unconscious processing, automatic processing that does not 69 00:04:21.250 --> 00:04:25.030 take attention as quickly as possible. So we're locking away 70 00:04:25.170 --> 00:04:28.625 all of this huge amounts of data. Now, if I said to 71 00:04:28.625 --> 00:04:32.305 you, if this was, is this a four sheet of 72 00:04:32.305 --> 00:04:35.840 paper here, was a, as the was the 73 00:04:35.840 --> 00:04:39.300 brain. And, part of it's conscious 74 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:43.065 processing, and part of it is unconscious processing. How much would 75 00:04:43.065 --> 00:04:46.205 you say that sheet of paper is conscious processing? 76 00:04:49.385 --> 00:04:52.910 I'd have to say with a that's the thing I'm slightly educated. So I left, 77 00:04:52.910 --> 00:04:56.530 I just say that probably 80% was probably unconscious and 20% 78 00:04:56.590 --> 00:05:00.325 conscious. 20% conscious is what you reckon. 79 00:05:00.325 --> 00:05:04.005 Yeah? Well, in actual fact, it's 80 00:05:04.005 --> 00:05:07.360 probably that much. So That little dog. 81 00:05:07.479 --> 00:05:11.099 A couple of stuff. All the rest is unconscious processing. 82 00:05:12.039 --> 00:05:15.475 So what we do with heuristics is we think 83 00:05:15.635 --> 00:05:19.075 Okay. That person has, has a 84 00:05:19.075 --> 00:05:22.515 green skin with things sticking out of his head, must be a Martian, put them 85 00:05:22.515 --> 00:05:25.539 in the Martian book. That person has, 86 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:29.280 that that thing has four legs of tail and ears. It must be a dog 87 00:05:29.280 --> 00:05:32.960 in the dog box. The unconscious processing, it gets it could so 88 00:05:32.960 --> 00:05:36.705 it's speed of efficiency for the brain to operate. But then 89 00:05:36.705 --> 00:05:39.825 we get these biases, because they were all of a sudden thinking, well, that means 90 00:05:39.825 --> 00:05:43.600 that all green people our martians when it could be 91 00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:47.120 the Grinch, or it could be, you know, that dog is 92 00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:50.824 actually a cat. So we we start get it wrong, 93 00:05:50.824 --> 00:05:54.365 biases are, are not very, very helpful 94 00:05:55.065 --> 00:05:58.880 in terms of being accurate because we stereotyped 95 00:05:59.180 --> 00:06:03.020 people, immediately into, because they've got that accent, 96 00:06:03.020 --> 00:06:06.695 that must mean they're ABC. In a box. It's stereotypical. 97 00:06:07.395 --> 00:06:10.915 So, it's not helpful because we get that wrong, but 98 00:06:10.915 --> 00:06:14.700 equally, it's helpful because it enables us process so much 99 00:06:14.700 --> 00:06:18.400 information so quickly. So the heuristics are great, 100 00:06:18.460 --> 00:06:22.115 but the side effect of the biases And the site, the 101 00:06:22.115 --> 00:06:25.794 biases are the things that we're trying to tackle so much in commerce now, which 102 00:06:25.794 --> 00:06:29.095 is a very difficult thing to tackle. And, 103 00:06:29.955 --> 00:06:33.640 it's it's a conundrum. It's it's actually a really big problem. 104 00:06:34.340 --> 00:06:38.100 I heard somewhere that, the the, if you 105 00:06:38.100 --> 00:06:41.635 like, this unconscious brain is really fast, whereas the conscious 106 00:06:41.635 --> 00:06:45.235 brain is quite slow and expensive in terms of 107 00:06:45.235 --> 00:06:48.910 brain cycles. It costs more process things consciously 108 00:06:49.050 --> 00:06:52.570 than it does unconsciously. Is is that a truism, or is that just a No. 109 00:06:52.570 --> 00:06:56.185 It's it's it's fairly true. We've got to be careful of these 110 00:06:56.505 --> 00:07:00.264 grant statements in neuroscience, the pop the popular press get hold of 111 00:07:00.264 --> 00:07:02.985 this stuff. I mean, may I give you an example of what it's like to 112 00:07:02.985 --> 00:07:06.620 be a neuroscientist to give you to give you context? Okay. 113 00:07:06.620 --> 00:07:10.380 So we have an idea. And we've got our little idea, 114 00:07:10.380 --> 00:07:13.665 and we think, okay, this is a really good idea. I want to research this 115 00:07:13.665 --> 00:07:17.105 I wonder if anybody else has researched it and what's been said 116 00:07:17.105 --> 00:07:20.805 before. So our little idea becomes this great big 117 00:07:20.920 --> 00:07:24.680 piece of work where we're doing a massive literature review, and we're reading up on 118 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:28.440 it. We've realized then I'm going, okay. My dear's sound. I could do 119 00:07:28.440 --> 00:07:31.735 that. So we break it right the way down, to our hypothesis. 120 00:07:32.515 --> 00:07:35.635 And then we think, right, I'm going to design my experiment now. So we open 121 00:07:35.635 --> 00:07:39.235 it up, we design the experiment, we run the experiment, we get the 122 00:07:39.235 --> 00:07:42.970 results, And then we they finally take hold, not quite finally. 123 00:07:42.970 --> 00:07:46.509 They're being brought back down to those tiny results in about 124 00:07:46.889 --> 00:07:50.705 half a page. And then we open it up again, in our discussion, 125 00:07:51.245 --> 00:07:55.004 looking back at the literature review. So we're now Lockwood we've now 126 00:07:55.004 --> 00:07:58.280 got our discussion. We've opened it up and we're trying to make sense of the 127 00:07:58.280 --> 00:08:01.800 results. And then we'd close it down, get it down, and down, and down, and 128 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:05.555 to our conclusion, nice and neat, saying what needs to be done 129 00:08:05.555 --> 00:08:09.095 next. And then with a bit of luck and a fair wind, 130 00:08:09.235 --> 00:08:12.800 we are published in a peer review paper, and it 131 00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:16.479 goes out there to the, to, the enlightened ones. And then 132 00:08:16.479 --> 00:08:20.020 the popular press get hold of it, and that's all how it breaks loose, 133 00:08:20.400 --> 00:08:23.915 because it goes wrong. So so you get this lovely 134 00:08:23.915 --> 00:08:27.615 neuroscientific, of explanations and ideas 135 00:08:27.915 --> 00:08:31.500 and what is going on in the brain, then popular press get hold of it 136 00:08:31.500 --> 00:08:35.340 somebody says, oh, that's gonna fit my business model. I'm gonna say I can make 137 00:08:35.340 --> 00:08:38.940 that fit because of what I'm selling or what my products or my 138 00:08:38.940 --> 00:08:40.780 services. And then it goes really 139 00:08:40.851 --> 00:08:44.525 Wellbeing, Mike, I'm I'm on a 140 00:08:44.525 --> 00:08:47.964 mission to stop this. It's not I'm not gonna stop it, but I will 141 00:08:47.964 --> 00:08:51.680 enlighten everybody I because, so we have to be very careful of grant 142 00:08:51.680 --> 00:08:55.520 statements when it comes to neuroscience. It's a very serious 143 00:08:55.520 --> 00:08:59.204 science, but it's an embryonic science. It's brand new in science 144 00:08:59.204 --> 00:09:02.824 speak, and so we're learning new stuff all the time. 145 00:09:02.884 --> 00:09:06.725 So I I believe that when we get the next generation of 146 00:09:06.725 --> 00:09:10.490 neuroimaging equipment, we will probably unlearn 147 00:09:11.430 --> 00:09:14.970 and discover things again that we have no idea about. 148 00:09:15.335 --> 00:09:19.015 That's what's exciting about neuroscience. Okay. So so 149 00:09:19.015 --> 00:09:22.075 we've been living in a world of kind of 150 00:09:22.590 --> 00:09:25.950 fake news is it in terms of what we believe about the brain, and we've 151 00:09:25.950 --> 00:09:29.790 had all these, you know, I, you know, you hear that Myers Briggs is is 152 00:09:29.790 --> 00:09:33.404 is as interesting as horoscope and you hear the introvert extrovert, 153 00:09:34.105 --> 00:09:37.944 the binary parallels that we thought they were before and the and the brain 154 00:09:37.944 --> 00:09:41.700 is far more complex. So are we even now saying that men aren't for Mars 155 00:09:41.700 --> 00:09:45.300 and women aren't for Venus anymore? Is is there no male brain, female brain, or 156 00:09:45.300 --> 00:09:48.965 is that another myth? I worry about this. This this 157 00:09:48.965 --> 00:09:52.485 labeling like this, it's it's the brain isn't that simple. We're 158 00:09:52.485 --> 00:09:55.785 simplifying it too much. We are products 159 00:09:56.110 --> 00:09:59.790 of our, of our chemicals and our biology, but 160 00:09:59.790 --> 00:10:02.610 we're also products our environmental and social upbringing. 161 00:10:03.445 --> 00:10:06.885 So, therefore, we can't just say a male. I mean, I I know that it 162 00:10:06.885 --> 00:10:10.725 girls are little tomboys in the playground. I know that little boys who would rather 163 00:10:10.725 --> 00:10:13.880 play with the prime or chair or, you know, or dolls. 164 00:10:14.100 --> 00:10:17.780 It's, how do we talk about the so called male and female 165 00:10:17.780 --> 00:10:21.320 brain like that, especially when you consider how we 166 00:10:21.415 --> 00:10:25.014 treat our boys and girls differently. And there's been some 167 00:10:25.014 --> 00:10:28.795 really good documentaries on on mainstream television here in the UK, 168 00:10:29.014 --> 00:10:32.800 about this and how, you know, boys, we 169 00:10:32.800 --> 00:10:36.399 push a little bit to be more physical because we're a little bit more 170 00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:40.195 protected with. We don't need to be But it's the way we're programmed as 171 00:10:40.195 --> 00:10:43.955 parents and as teachers and carers. So I think to 172 00:10:43.955 --> 00:10:47.015 talk about a male and female brain is really misleading. 173 00:10:48.190 --> 00:10:50.769 It's almost, I think it's quite 174 00:10:51.870 --> 00:10:55.635 demeaning often to women to say, well, the female brain is 175 00:10:55.635 --> 00:10:59.075 different to the male brain. Therefore, you can't be as effective as a 176 00:10:59.075 --> 00:11:02.835 man. And it's almost like it's almost like creating 2nd class of citizen 177 00:11:02.835 --> 00:11:06.470 by by using this malefemale brain thing and men is strong women a 178 00:11:06.470 --> 00:11:10.310 week. Men men don't quote. Women do quote. And then that's the 179 00:11:10.310 --> 00:11:14.135 kind of the label we're given as women. That we have to perform 180 00:11:14.135 --> 00:11:17.975 to our stereotype. Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, we 181 00:11:17.975 --> 00:11:21.335 have this, this idea of of the masculine, you know, 182 00:11:21.335 --> 00:11:24.760 engineers of of men, mathematicians on men. What 183 00:11:24.760 --> 00:11:28.060 nonsense? There's plenty of it female in in men mathematicians 184 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:32.185 and plenty of female engineers out there, but it's this you know, and one of 185 00:11:32.185 --> 00:11:35.225 my kids, so when they were at university, one of their friends was done on 186 00:11:35.225 --> 00:11:39.040 engineering course, she was the only girl in the auditorium. You know, in the 187 00:11:39.040 --> 00:11:42.500 lecture theater, everyone else was a guy, and I just thought, that's so sad. 188 00:11:42.560 --> 00:11:46.295 Yeah. You know, that's it. And I did some covert of research in a 189 00:11:46.295 --> 00:11:49.415 senior school, not far from here, and I was looking at year 9, so they 190 00:11:49.415 --> 00:11:52.935 were fourteen to fifteen year olds. And, I said, 191 00:11:52.935 --> 00:11:56.610 okay. Let's look at the jobs of nurse, doctor, 192 00:11:56.829 --> 00:12:00.430 what secretary, and she was a 193 00:12:00.430 --> 00:12:03.805 nurse. He was a doctor, and I'm thinking, 194 00:12:03.865 --> 00:12:07.485 really? Still we're doing this? And, you know, 195 00:12:07.705 --> 00:12:11.370 it still goes on. It perpetuates everywhere. I mean, I think I remember one of 196 00:12:11.370 --> 00:12:15.210 the BBC TV programs where they talked about boys and girls, and they kind 197 00:12:15.210 --> 00:12:18.865 of identified around about the age of and 7 is where we start locking in 198 00:12:18.865 --> 00:12:22.705 these identities within us, and a lot of that is 199 00:12:22.705 --> 00:12:26.380 socialized. And there was big great examples about if you dress 200 00:12:26.620 --> 00:12:30.380 a a baby in girl clothes at the age of 201 00:12:30.380 --> 00:12:34.060 6 months to 18 months. People treated them in a different way than if you 202 00:12:34.060 --> 00:12:37.625 dressed them in boy clothes regard their actual sex drug gender. 203 00:12:38.565 --> 00:12:42.325 And, yeah, I was talking to some people that was like, because I work on 204 00:12:42.325 --> 00:12:45.990 the recruitment HR space. And one of the challenges is trying to 205 00:12:45.990 --> 00:12:49.750 attract more young girls, women, into stem 206 00:12:49.750 --> 00:12:53.269 subjects, into into subjects where traditionally it's been 207 00:12:53.269 --> 00:12:56.925 operated by men. I I think it's I was 208 00:12:56.925 --> 00:13:00.605 actually speaking it to a an organization, and 209 00:13:00.605 --> 00:13:04.240 they said, well, it's not our problem so much. Society's problem, 210 00:13:04.300 --> 00:13:07.100 and I said, well, hang on a minute. If you're running a business, you've gotta 211 00:13:07.100 --> 00:13:10.700 take some responsibility to invest in the future and go out 212 00:13:10.700 --> 00:13:14.085 into schools, go out into the into the work beyond your workplace 213 00:13:14.625 --> 00:13:18.305 to make your subjects aspirational and to try and overcome those 214 00:13:18.305 --> 00:13:21.750 biases by having great female role models great role models from 215 00:13:21.750 --> 00:13:25.510 underprivilege or underrepresented communities, not just sit back and go, 216 00:13:25.510 --> 00:13:29.350 well, we can't do anything in society. And that that's a challenge 217 00:13:29.350 --> 00:13:32.795 I see. And I almost a demand where we have to start 218 00:13:32.935 --> 00:13:36.715 maybe into anti nation classes. We start 219 00:13:36.775 --> 00:13:40.150 trying to educate parents on how to debise how to 220 00:13:40.150 --> 00:13:43.210 degenerate a lot of the stuff they and the message that they give their children. 221 00:13:43.510 --> 00:13:46.550 The schools are now doing a fantastic job. I I I speak to a lot 222 00:13:46.550 --> 00:13:49.675 of pair and the schools are putting a lot of effort into making sure that 223 00:13:49.675 --> 00:13:53.435 boys and girls feel equally aspirational. But, of course, you come home, you 224 00:13:53.435 --> 00:13:57.269 then get socialized back into the boy girl. And then the friends and all 225 00:13:57.269 --> 00:14:00.790 your peers kick in, and and they just reinforce the terrorist. So all the great 226 00:14:00.790 --> 00:14:04.305 work the schools are doing is being deprogrammed by the parent 227 00:14:04.385 --> 00:14:08.165 and society around them. And that's that's all. I think we've gotta 228 00:14:08.305 --> 00:14:12.050 pre we gotta tackle pre parents and change 229 00:14:12.050 --> 00:14:15.889 the generation. Otherwise, we're never gonna make a difference. I I I'm 230 00:14:15.889 --> 00:14:19.615 I'm looking forward to the day when we do not discuss gender at all. 231 00:14:19.755 --> 00:14:23.515 Yes. Amen. Yeah. Yeah. I'm look yeah. I'm really am looking forward to that 232 00:14:23.515 --> 00:14:27.035 day. I'm looking forward to the day when somebody gets a job on their 233 00:14:27.035 --> 00:14:30.510 merit. On their capability and their experiences so 234 00:14:30.510 --> 00:14:34.350 far. I'm looking forward to that. I'm a mother of a son and a 235 00:14:34.350 --> 00:14:37.855 daughter. I don't want to either of them to have a 236 00:14:37.855 --> 00:14:41.455 problem because of their gender. So I worry about us saying we 237 00:14:41.455 --> 00:14:44.870 need more women in on the board or we need more women 238 00:14:44.870 --> 00:14:48.390 somewhere. Yes, we do, but surely we 239 00:14:48.390 --> 00:14:52.075 are doing the same as we did with the other with the opposite 240 00:14:52.075 --> 00:14:55.835 gender, but just change the label. You know, we to 241 00:14:55.835 --> 00:14:59.620 to it's it's a it's a labeling thing. I would rather just say, let's 242 00:14:59.779 --> 00:15:03.620 the north gender. Did you know I did a documentary with Karen Brady on 243 00:15:03.620 --> 00:15:07.345 channel 5 new? No? Okay. We 244 00:15:07.665 --> 00:15:10.465 sorry. I'm cracked. Tell me if you just want me to be quiet, Jo. Oh, 245 00:15:10.465 --> 00:15:11.925 that's good. I get very excited. 246 00:15:14.150 --> 00:15:17.590 15 minutes a final hour frame. Definitely. Yeah. Care for it. 247 00:15:17.590 --> 00:15:21.350 Okay. We we did this we did this program. I set 248 00:15:21.350 --> 00:15:25.005 up an experiment, and we we've gotten some recruiters from an in 249 00:15:25.245 --> 00:15:29.005 different employment agencies, half old guys, half old girls. We split them 250 00:15:29.005 --> 00:15:32.800 into 2 groups. And we hid them away in the side rooms. We 251 00:15:32.800 --> 00:15:35.380 had CVs stuck up on the wall. 252 00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:40.175 Half the CVs had the name of the applicant 253 00:15:40.555 --> 00:15:44.235 and the photograph, half of the CDs had no name and 254 00:15:44.235 --> 00:15:47.870 no photograph. So you would think that was not you couldn't tell what 255 00:15:47.870 --> 00:15:51.170 gender they were because of that. With them, 256 00:15:51.310 --> 00:15:54.990 the first group of the, of the first group of recruiters 257 00:15:54.990 --> 00:15:58.485 came in, and they saw with photo first and 258 00:15:58.485 --> 00:16:01.925 without, and we swapped it around for the second group. So we mixed it up 259 00:16:01.925 --> 00:16:04.105 a bit, so there wasn't any kind of ordering problem. 260 00:16:05.740 --> 00:16:09.420 The brief was they didn't know why they were there, but the brief 261 00:16:09.420 --> 00:16:12.640 was that they had to, decide 262 00:16:13.315 --> 00:16:17.075 on one applicant for a first interview in 263 00:16:17.075 --> 00:16:20.295 an engineering firm as an IT expert. 264 00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:24.600 Traditionally so called a male role, engineering firm, 265 00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:28.200 IT, and that was it. I think it was 266 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:31.945 95 percent of the result, 95% 267 00:16:32.325 --> 00:16:35.845 of them chose men. Even with 268 00:16:35.845 --> 00:16:39.540 the CVs without a photograph or a name. 269 00:16:40.160 --> 00:16:43.940 And when we told them that there was a bias going on, they were mortified. 270 00:16:44.225 --> 00:16:48.065 Because they're recruiters. They understand what bias means. And they just 271 00:16:48.065 --> 00:16:50.704 say, no. No. No. No. No. What was it? Well, why did you choose that 272 00:16:50.704 --> 00:16:54.380 person? Well, because they've got a better degree was more suitable. No. 273 00:16:54.380 --> 00:16:58.060 They've all got suitable degrees, every one of them. And but it 274 00:16:58.060 --> 00:17:01.875 turned out that it was the language in the CVs that 275 00:17:01.875 --> 00:17:05.474 that gave them the idea of which gender it was. So the 276 00:17:05.474 --> 00:17:09.234 female CVs were words like team building, and, 277 00:17:09.555 --> 00:17:13.280 things like that, that looks the more cohesive, type 278 00:17:13.280 --> 00:17:16.819 of words, whereas the guy words were all about ambition and 279 00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:20.734 those words. And that that gave a clue as to what the recruiters 280 00:17:20.734 --> 00:17:23.474 were looking at. And it was quite enlightening 281 00:17:24.335 --> 00:17:27.710 that, and they were really upset with themselves. And 282 00:17:27.710 --> 00:17:31.170 argued big time pushed back. Yeah. But, 283 00:17:31.630 --> 00:17:35.230 it, it was true. You know, but people will have biases. You know, the only 284 00:17:35.230 --> 00:17:38.965 people that don't have biases are dead people. So, you, you 285 00:17:38.965 --> 00:17:42.804 know, so it's not a bad thing. We just need to be aware 286 00:17:42.804 --> 00:17:46.470 of them and work with them sensibly. Yes. I 287 00:17:46.470 --> 00:17:50.250 mean, the whole, meritocracy in recruitment and 288 00:17:50.390 --> 00:17:54.150 opportunity is a whole new topic, which I'm I'm planning on tackling the other 289 00:17:54.150 --> 00:17:57.835 day, but, I often find merit pushing meritoxi 290 00:17:58.055 --> 00:18:01.895 forward is an excuse to keep the status quo because what we're saying 291 00:18:01.895 --> 00:18:05.720 is based on the based on the merits we've decided, this is the best 292 00:18:05.720 --> 00:18:09.400 person, but we often don't include in 293 00:18:09.400 --> 00:18:13.135 that merit autocracy scoring other skills that 294 00:18:13.135 --> 00:18:16.975 are maybe more appropriate to the workplace, about collaboration, about teamwork, about 295 00:18:16.975 --> 00:18:19.235 empathy, about building relationships. 296 00:18:20.340 --> 00:18:24.100 So often we're building the meritocracy with male bias in 297 00:18:24.100 --> 00:18:27.620 mind, and that that's that's the challenge I have with meritocracy. And, yes, we'd all 298 00:18:27.620 --> 00:18:31.125 love to be equal, but I think some people need 299 00:18:31.505 --> 00:18:35.024 equity, which means give them a leg up to give them equality, if you like, 300 00:18:35.024 --> 00:18:38.789 or equal chance. So Yeah. Yeah. So that, yeah, I think currently 301 00:18:39.409 --> 00:18:42.629 meritocracy is almost an excuse to keep status quo. 302 00:18:43.250 --> 00:18:47.065 And sometimes I I feel that a diversity hire, 303 00:18:47.065 --> 00:18:50.825 whether that's gender ethnicity is somehow somehow seems 304 00:18:50.825 --> 00:18:54.630 2nd best. I'm hiring for diversity, 305 00:18:54.929 --> 00:18:57.990 not for the best person, but I have to hire someone who's different. 306 00:18:59.090 --> 00:19:02.805 They won't be as good. So you're almost pre bias in person to be 307 00:19:03.105 --> 00:19:06.785 not as good as the obvious candidate. And, anyway, that's a 308 00:19:06.785 --> 00:19:10.419 that's a topic for all of you in the future. Unless you've got 309 00:19:10.419 --> 00:19:14.100 some Sorry, Jeremy. You've just really touched on something that's 310 00:19:14.100 --> 00:19:17.080 really interesting there. If we are, 311 00:19:18.505 --> 00:19:21.245 feeding the status quo, 312 00:19:22.105 --> 00:19:25.865 we're actually going to become dinosaurs because things are 313 00:19:25.865 --> 00:19:29.360 changing so rapidly, we really have got to think 314 00:19:29.360 --> 00:19:32.960 in in much more creatively, with with much more 315 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:36.794 innovation. So In actual fact, if we've got a job speaker, we're looking 316 00:19:36.794 --> 00:19:40.475 for a certain type of person and we're trying not to be gender biased or 317 00:19:40.475 --> 00:19:44.320 any bias whatsoever, maybe we're looking at the rock, maybe obscapes, 318 00:19:44.380 --> 00:19:47.440 not correct. Oh, completely. Completely. It's 319 00:19:48.139 --> 00:19:51.759 a whole whole recruitment industry, and it is is shaking itself up. 320 00:19:51.995 --> 00:19:55.835 Is based on a CV, which is a historical document. And 321 00:19:55.835 --> 00:19:59.515 that was only invented in the eighties when we started having fax machines, and we 322 00:19:59.515 --> 00:20:03.140 could start writing CVs on computers. Before that, we used to fill an application 323 00:20:03.140 --> 00:20:06.600 form. So we we constructed the CV as the official document. 324 00:20:07.380 --> 00:20:11.140 People Wellbeing at video interviews, again, video interviews could have their own 325 00:20:11.140 --> 00:20:14.695 buy you know, you see somebody at the way they talk, the way they 326 00:20:14.835 --> 00:20:18.570 sound, the way they all these other facts kicking. But yeah, it's 327 00:20:18.570 --> 00:20:22.090 I think the the more forward looking companies now are being more 328 00:20:22.090 --> 00:20:25.309 objective in their approach where they were set 329 00:20:25.664 --> 00:20:29.505 defined criteria, you would maybe rate yourself, someone else would rate you on 330 00:20:29.505 --> 00:20:33.265 the answer to a question. So for the time you get around to say 331 00:20:33.265 --> 00:20:37.029 that the second round, there's always there's always that affinity, but as you 332 00:20:37.029 --> 00:20:40.870 already know, that person has capability. So you're more likely to you're more likely 333 00:20:40.870 --> 00:20:44.555 to welcome everybody whereas first system of CV is 334 00:20:44.555 --> 00:20:48.075 down to how good you are at creating a CV, whether you've paid 335 00:20:48.075 --> 00:20:51.890 someone or or what it is a whole load of factors that CVs often are 336 00:20:51.890 --> 00:20:55.650 written by professionals to get people jobs, not actually to 337 00:20:55.650 --> 00:20:59.075 do the job. And, often, the the interview process is 338 00:20:59.475 --> 00:21:03.315 is two people lying to each other, about the demo 339 00:21:03.315 --> 00:21:06.455 mode of the game, if you're like, rather than actual actual game footage. 340 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:11.039 So, yeah, it's, it I think the forward looking companies are starting to 341 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:14.399 address the way they recruit, the way they attract. The whole 342 00:21:14.399 --> 00:21:18.164 candidate experience, and also understand that the step is 343 00:21:18.164 --> 00:21:21.924 about their brand and about their, what they're offering people in terms of 344 00:21:21.924 --> 00:21:25.520 flex ability and the skills they need because they don't want 345 00:21:25.580 --> 00:21:29.100 the hierarchical businesses in the past. They want more neural 346 00:21:29.100 --> 00:21:32.895 networks, and that requires different skill sets, which can't always pick up in 347 00:21:32.895 --> 00:21:36.495 a CV. Absolutely. There's a lot you can't pick up in a 348 00:21:36.495 --> 00:21:40.255 CV. But, of course, as soon as you get somebody in front of a 349 00:21:40.255 --> 00:21:43.840 panel, the the, perceptions of each 350 00:21:43.840 --> 00:21:47.520 panelist will be, unique to 351 00:21:47.520 --> 00:21:51.365 only them. So they'll be looking with their with their buyers views as well, 352 00:21:51.365 --> 00:21:54.245 you know, it's one of the big different. To be honest with you, when I 353 00:21:54.245 --> 00:21:57.765 go into companies, one of the things I talk about is if you have got 354 00:21:57.765 --> 00:22:01.600 an interview panel, or a board or whatever is that you 355 00:22:01.600 --> 00:22:05.380 come to a point of agreement that you are 356 00:22:06.080 --> 00:22:09.905 if you display a bias, which you're bound to 357 00:22:09.905 --> 00:22:13.665 do, the others pointed out to you. Yes. I'd just 358 00:22:13.665 --> 00:22:17.185 say, hang on a minute. Little Jiminy cricket here. We're all watching on your 359 00:22:17.185 --> 00:22:21.000 shoulder. You just did X Y Zed. The problem with that 360 00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:24.140 is that somebody might feel they're being got at 361 00:22:24.679 --> 00:22:28.015 by their peers. So it has to be really a place 362 00:22:28.075 --> 00:22:31.135 of where everybody consents to the same thing. 363 00:22:31.835 --> 00:22:35.230 And, you know, you actually are looking after one another, so you are not 364 00:22:35.230 --> 00:22:38.910 demonstrating or using buyers because you're being pulled up on it. So 365 00:22:38.910 --> 00:22:42.669 it raises awareness of of, you 366 00:22:42.669 --> 00:22:46.315 know, what what is your default button? Yeah. And I think, 367 00:22:46.315 --> 00:22:49.755 again, look at some of the forward looking companies, they're they're a lot more 368 00:22:49.755 --> 00:22:53.375 effort into training their recruiters. They're also 369 00:22:53.760 --> 00:22:57.200 trying to avoid groupthink or dominance within an interview 370 00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:00.880 board where each person has to rate and review against a set 371 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:04.524 of objective criteria before they discuss. And 372 00:23:04.524 --> 00:23:08.284 only then do you do you consolidate the results and try and average 373 00:23:08.284 --> 00:23:12.060 out those biases if you can? And 374 00:23:12.520 --> 00:23:15.240 some of those are done blindly, and some of those are done, 375 00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:20.135 as I say, just using objective based questions. So, you know, find the error in 376 00:23:20.135 --> 00:23:23.274 this code, write me 5 lines of code that will do this. 377 00:23:23.975 --> 00:23:27.669 So really testing in job experience, and some are even 378 00:23:27.669 --> 00:23:31.510 saying come in and work for us for a day, do the job and 379 00:23:31.510 --> 00:23:34.870 see how it goes. And and those are kind of a better, better ways of 380 00:23:34.870 --> 00:23:37.415 evaluating someone's fit performance, 381 00:23:38.915 --> 00:23:42.455 capability than a 5 minute interview, which really, 382 00:23:42.755 --> 00:23:46.530 I think people are saying now that an interview and a CV and application 383 00:23:46.530 --> 00:23:50.210 video only gets you a month or 2's head start. It's the actual the 384 00:23:50.210 --> 00:23:53.695 person that's gonna thrive after the 3 or 4 months, when they've they've picked up 385 00:23:53.695 --> 00:23:55.155 the job, they've picked up the opportunity. 386 00:23:57.335 --> 00:24:01.030 And, they're actually enrolled I think what we 387 00:24:01.030 --> 00:24:03.590 tend to do is we we tend to go for the person who's got the 388 00:24:03.590 --> 00:24:07.350 extrovert personality or the or the person more like us 389 00:24:07.350 --> 00:24:10.255 or the more like the person just left or the other people in the team. 390 00:24:10.255 --> 00:24:13.455 And that's that's when we're right at the job set, we often think of the 391 00:24:13.455 --> 00:24:16.975 person we want to hire, and then we match everybody against that 392 00:24:16.975 --> 00:24:20.630 person other than the actual needs of the role. 393 00:24:21.429 --> 00:24:25.269 But, yeah, that that's that's that's the way the 394 00:24:25.269 --> 00:24:28.985 world is moving, and it slowly in some areas, but people organizing 395 00:24:29.125 --> 00:24:32.745 are really focused on that. Yeah. I think it's it's all about group membership. 396 00:24:33.660 --> 00:24:37.500 You know, we, we identify with people like us, and 397 00:24:37.500 --> 00:24:40.880 we need our group membership, and we will fight for our group. 398 00:24:41.965 --> 00:24:45.645 As you've seen everywhere, absolutely, every week, just listen to the news 399 00:24:45.645 --> 00:24:49.485 anytime, and you will find people fighting for their group that they feel 400 00:24:49.485 --> 00:24:53.090 a member of, and anybody out side of that group is a threat. 401 00:24:53.470 --> 00:24:57.150