WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.050 --> 00:00:04.814 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am the host of the 2 00:00:04.852 --> 00:00:08.686 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number 3 00:00:08.708 --> 00:00:12.366 of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the 4 00:00:12.388 --> 00:00:16.014 subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the 5 00:00:16.052 --> 00:00:19.198 world a better place for everyone to thrive in. If you want to join me 6 00:00:19.204 --> 00:00:22.654 in the future and be a guest, then please do drop me a line to 7 00:00:22.692 --> 00:00:24.400 jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 8 00:00:26.490 --> 00:00:30.162 You'll also be able to catch up with all of the shows on itunes, Spotify 9 00:00:30.306 --> 00:00:33.766 and all of the users. Plug in your headphones, grab a 10 00:00:33.788 --> 00:00:37.586 decaf and let's get going. Today's episode 11 00:00:37.698 --> 00:00:41.094 is episode two with a title Embracing 12 00:00:41.142 --> 00:00:44.906 Diversity and Inclusion. As a small business owner and 13 00:00:44.928 --> 00:00:48.294 I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined 14 00:00:48.342 --> 00:00:51.994 by my friend Katie Neves. I first met 15 00:00:52.032 --> 00:00:55.614 Katie at a true inclusion event last summer in London, but we've been 16 00:00:55.652 --> 00:00:59.498 online business associates for much longer. Katie 17 00:00:59.514 --> 00:01:03.198 is a photographer and she also runs a speaking business and advocacy called Call to 18 00:01:03.204 --> 00:01:06.514 be Trans. So earlier, I asked Katie to describe her 19 00:01:06.552 --> 00:01:10.130 superpower and she said being able to connect 20 00:01:10.200 --> 00:01:13.666 with people, be very honest and to be able to get her 21 00:01:13.688 --> 00:01:17.526 passion across, isn't that amazing? So, hello, Katie, how 22 00:01:17.548 --> 00:01:20.934 are you? Hello, Joe. Thanks very much for inviting me on 23 00:01:20.972 --> 00:01:22.440 podcast number two. 24 00:01:24.490 --> 00:01:27.880 Exciting. So, tell us a bit about yourself. 25 00:01:28.590 --> 00:01:32.058 What is your business? What do you do? Right, well, 26 00:01:32.144 --> 00:01:35.482 basically, I've been a photographer and filmmaker for 27 00:01:35.616 --> 00:01:39.354 33 years, but two years ago I came out 28 00:01:39.392 --> 00:01:43.054 very publicly as being transgender after living for 48 years 29 00:01:43.092 --> 00:01:46.766 as a man. So I now have a new business as a 30 00:01:46.788 --> 00:01:50.510 trans ambassador, which runs alongside my photography business. So I help 31 00:01:50.580 --> 00:01:54.414 companies with their diversity and inclusion by doing trans 32 00:01:54.452 --> 00:01:58.098 awareness training, public speaking and media appearances. But I'm still doing the 33 00:01:58.104 --> 00:02:01.220 photography as well, so I've got those two things on the go, 34 00:02:01.750 --> 00:02:05.286 but they fulfil both of my passions. So 35 00:02:05.308 --> 00:02:09.026 I'm passionate about photography and video and I'm passionate about helping 36 00:02:09.058 --> 00:02:12.450 people with their diversity and inclusion, 37 00:02:12.610 --> 00:02:16.406 particularly, I think, with trans. I think what I 38 00:02:16.428 --> 00:02:20.038 find is that a lot of trans people don't know that it's 39 00:02:20.054 --> 00:02:21.660 okay to be trans, and 40 00:02:23.950 --> 00:02:27.738 it really is. I don't think so many 41 00:02:27.744 --> 00:02:31.574 trans people don't know that. And so I want to try and fucking 42 00:02:31.622 --> 00:02:34.160 lead by example and just show people that 43 00:02:35.170 --> 00:02:38.960 I'm so much happier as I am now. And 44 00:02:40.290 --> 00:02:43.634 life's good. Yeah. So you must have had a 45 00:02:43.672 --> 00:02:46.740 dilemma those two or three years ago about your business, 46 00:02:47.670 --> 00:02:51.170 how people would accept you and the world was ready 47 00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:53.620 for a Katie like you, or whether 48 00:02:54.790 --> 00:02:58.438 you'd find your business falling apart. I mean, how have you found the world to 49 00:02:58.444 --> 00:03:02.118 be in the last couple of years? It's been an interesting couple of 50 00:03:02.124 --> 00:03:05.974 years, I say. Good, though. It's good on the whole, good. 51 00:03:06.172 --> 00:03:10.002 I've had some challenges along the way. The first challenge was 52 00:03:10.076 --> 00:03:13.798 the name of my photography business was, and still is named 53 00:03:13.814 --> 00:03:17.574 after my old male name, which is Martin. So it's called Martin Neves 54 00:03:17.622 --> 00:03:21.434 photography and film. Now, I think when I 55 00:03:21.472 --> 00:03:25.194 was about to come out, it had been an established brand 56 00:03:25.242 --> 00:03:28.926 for 22 years then, and I felt that I didn't want to 57 00:03:28.948 --> 00:03:32.794 change the name of the business because I could have changed it to Katie Neves 58 00:03:32.842 --> 00:03:36.514 Photography and Film. But then I thought, well, nobody would know 59 00:03:36.552 --> 00:03:40.306 who I was, so I thought I 60 00:03:40.328 --> 00:03:43.842 had to keep the name of the business the same, otherwise it'd be like starting 61 00:03:43.896 --> 00:03:46.706 from scratch. So I thought the only way I could do it was to come 62 00:03:46.728 --> 00:03:50.402 out very openly and very honestly as being transgender 63 00:03:50.546 --> 00:03:54.054 and continue to do that to this day, which I am. 64 00:03:54.252 --> 00:03:57.494 So I thought the only thing to do is just to be very open and 65 00:03:57.532 --> 00:04:00.360 honest and be big, bold and out there. 66 00:04:02.030 --> 00:04:05.340 What I did, I made a coming out video 67 00:04:06.030 --> 00:04:09.658 and I sent that to all my clients and I put it on all 68 00:04:09.664 --> 00:04:12.862 my social media and then sat back 69 00:04:12.916 --> 00:04:16.714 and worried. I didn't know what the reaction 70 00:04:16.762 --> 00:04:20.560 would be. I was absolutely bricking it, joe I'll. Say. 71 00:04:23.170 --> 00:04:26.722 Technical term absolutely. I really didn't know because 72 00:04:26.776 --> 00:04:30.414 everything was riding on my whole livelihood, my reputation, 73 00:04:30.542 --> 00:04:34.194 everything was resting on the reaction to that video. I was 74 00:04:34.232 --> 00:04:36.580 so worried. But what 75 00:04:38.390 --> 00:04:42.134 it the first social media I put it out on was Facebook. And I 76 00:04:42.172 --> 00:04:46.006 remember my finger hovering over the mouse, very nervously, thinking, as soon as 77 00:04:46.028 --> 00:04:49.606 I make that click, my life will never be the same again. 78 00:04:49.788 --> 00:04:53.578 Anyway, I made the click and then I waited. But then I 79 00:04:53.584 --> 00:04:56.186 had a job that I had to go out on and I went out on 80 00:04:56.208 --> 00:04:59.786 this job very clearly. Now my mind wasn't on the job at 81 00:04:59.808 --> 00:05:02.746 all. I just wanted to get it done as quickly as possible. The client was 82 00:05:02.768 --> 00:05:06.126 very happy with the pictures and everything, but I couldn't wait to get back just 83 00:05:06.148 --> 00:05:09.982 to see what's happening on Facebook. And I tell you, I needn't have worried because 84 00:05:10.036 --> 00:05:13.874 when I got back, I was inundated with literally hundreds of 85 00:05:13.912 --> 00:05:17.666 messages of support. It was amazing. I 86 00:05:17.688 --> 00:05:21.122 felt so loved, I really did. And it went from being 87 00:05:21.176 --> 00:05:25.026 something that was something that I was 88 00:05:25.048 --> 00:05:28.194 absolutely dreading, to being one of the most uplifting 89 00:05:28.242 --> 00:05:31.510 experiences of my life. It was absolutely incredible. 90 00:05:34.570 --> 00:05:38.358 As well as being inundated with messages of support 91 00:05:38.444 --> 00:05:40.470 from friends and from clients, 92 00:05:42.570 --> 00:05:46.266 I also had a lot of messages from other trans people saying that they'd been 93 00:05:46.288 --> 00:05:49.866 struggling with it. But what I'd said had really helped and they thanked me for 94 00:05:49.888 --> 00:05:53.610 it, so that really spurred me on. It's 95 00:05:53.690 --> 00:05:57.502 been incredible. But say you're asking 96 00:05:57.556 --> 00:06:00.750 about the reaction from clients. 97 00:06:02.210 --> 00:06:06.018 I have lost some clients through it and I expected that I 98 00:06:06.024 --> 00:06:09.826 would, because the problem is that as a photographer, I 99 00:06:09.848 --> 00:06:11.650 haven't got any long term 100 00:06:13.350 --> 00:06:16.990 contracts. It's all short term stuff. So people phone up on freelance, 101 00:06:17.070 --> 00:06:20.806 people phone up, they want a job, doing a quote for it. If 102 00:06:20.828 --> 00:06:24.038 they find it acceptable, I do it and that's it, and then it's on to 103 00:06:24.044 --> 00:06:27.846 the next one. And so if they've got a problem with 104 00:06:27.868 --> 00:06:31.366 it, then they just don't ring me, the phone stops 105 00:06:31.398 --> 00:06:35.226 ringing. So I felt very vulnerable, to 106 00:06:35.248 --> 00:06:39.030 be honest. I had no laws of discrimination. 107 00:06:39.110 --> 00:06:42.526 If you work for a company, you can't be 108 00:06:42.548 --> 00:06:46.160 discriminated. Well, you can be, but you get taken to a tribunal, if you do, 109 00:06:47.410 --> 00:06:51.214 you're protected. I had no protection at all. So running 110 00:06:51.252 --> 00:06:54.414 a small business and coming out as trans, very 111 00:06:54.532 --> 00:06:58.106 challenging. Very. So, yeah, I have lost some 112 00:06:58.148 --> 00:07:01.458 clients, but in the main, most of them have been very good and 113 00:07:01.544 --> 00:07:04.658 supportive, and I've had some that have been really good, and I think some of 114 00:07:04.664 --> 00:07:07.954 them actually I might have actually had a little bit of positive 115 00:07:08.002 --> 00:07:10.758 discrimination because I think I might have ticked a few boxes for them. And I 116 00:07:10.764 --> 00:07:13.400 think, well, actually, I'll take that, because I've lost a few, 117 00:07:16.970 --> 00:07:20.502 and I have had a few issues 118 00:07:20.556 --> 00:07:24.346 in. So I did quite a bit of business networking and stuff as well. I 119 00:07:24.368 --> 00:07:27.418 have run into a few issues with some people there as well. I think that 120 00:07:27.504 --> 00:07:30.138 some people just didn't want to hear about my trans stuff, they just wanted to 121 00:07:30.144 --> 00:07:33.994 hear about my photography stuff. So, yeah, 122 00:07:34.032 --> 00:07:37.454 I have had a few problems like that and you get some people who 123 00:07:37.572 --> 00:07:41.102 just they don't want to know about anything, about diversity and they just say, oh, 124 00:07:41.156 --> 00:07:44.494 I'm old school. Well, I'm sorry, they need to old 125 00:07:44.532 --> 00:07:47.922 school, they do. I've had that said to me, I'm old school. 126 00:07:47.976 --> 00:07:51.746 And they say that after they've just misgendered me and I think, oh, come 127 00:07:51.768 --> 00:07:53.380 on, get real. 128 00:07:56.550 --> 00:08:00.342 But in the main, I think because I've approached it how I have, and 129 00:08:00.396 --> 00:08:04.102 I've approached it very head on and been very open. 130 00:08:04.156 --> 00:08:07.014 And I said to people, I've cut people quite a lot of slack. The people 131 00:08:07.052 --> 00:08:10.898 who have known me as Martin for years, I know that they're 132 00:08:10.914 --> 00:08:13.254 going to slip up from time to time and they're going to call me Martin 133 00:08:13.302 --> 00:08:17.066 sometimes, or they're going to say he and him. Because 134 00:08:17.088 --> 00:08:20.860 I know the people who are supportive and the people who are not. So 135 00:08:22.430 --> 00:08:26.174 I know if it's somebody who is supportive and they normally get it 136 00:08:26.212 --> 00:08:29.886 right and they just slip up, it's not a big deal at all, I'm not 137 00:08:29.908 --> 00:08:33.518 offended in the slightest. And they beat themselves up about I don't beat them up, 138 00:08:33.524 --> 00:08:37.374 I just sort of say, no, don't worry about it, they just apologise 139 00:08:37.422 --> 00:08:41.220 and move on. But I know they're beating themselves up about it. But 140 00:08:41.590 --> 00:08:45.374 I also know the people who aren't supportive and the people that deliberately misgender 141 00:08:45.422 --> 00:08:49.138 me and then that's abuse and I won't stand for that. But you 142 00:08:49.144 --> 00:08:52.726 know, don't you? You know the people, yeah, I have a very similar outlook on 143 00:08:52.748 --> 00:08:56.502 life that I kind of categorise people into several boxes. One box 144 00:08:56.556 --> 00:09:00.218 being, you've known me for 30, 40 years, it's difficult 145 00:09:00.304 --> 00:09:03.914 and I know it's difficult and you 146 00:09:03.952 --> 00:09:07.500 can't bully people. You have to work with them and educate them 147 00:09:07.870 --> 00:09:11.546 and give them time, as you say, cut them some slack. And then there's other 148 00:09:11.568 --> 00:09:15.086 people who have only known me as Joe, and that's where I get more 149 00:09:15.108 --> 00:09:18.830 frustrated, where people have only known me as me and 150 00:09:18.900 --> 00:09:22.686 they're lazy or they don't make the effort or randomly, they just get it 151 00:09:22.708 --> 00:09:26.370 wrong. And that's a bit more frustrating, I find. Exactly 152 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:30.290 the same, yeah. Because generally, the people, the new friends, the people who have 153 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:34.146 only known me as Katie, tend not to get it wrong. Then 154 00:09:34.168 --> 00:09:37.758 when they do, it does hurt, doesn't it? It's confusing. It's 155 00:09:37.774 --> 00:09:41.526 like, Where did that come from? And 156 00:09:41.548 --> 00:09:44.520 they go, I don't know, it just came out. Sorry. 157 00:09:46.330 --> 00:09:49.786 The previous podcast, episode one, I talked to Dr Linda Shaw about this, about how 158 00:09:49.808 --> 00:09:53.260 the brain and heuristics and the biases kick in and 159 00:09:54.750 --> 00:09:58.522 reptilian fast brain stuff kicks in and you can't always control 160 00:09:58.576 --> 00:10:02.110 it. So, yeah, it's strange. I suppose I get mostly frustrated 161 00:10:02.610 --> 00:10:05.934 by service providers. So someone who's working in a shop, a 162 00:10:05.972 --> 00:10:09.770 restaurant, airport Cheque in Trains, 163 00:10:09.850 --> 00:10:13.394 where people are paid and their role is customer service, that's where I get most 164 00:10:13.432 --> 00:10:16.180 frustrated because I would like to think 165 00:10:21.670 --> 00:10:25.282 I find often people not either 166 00:10:25.336 --> 00:10:29.058 educated or they're just a bit lazy beyond what they should be. So those are 167 00:10:29.064 --> 00:10:32.674 the people I tend to get most frustrated with, ordering coffee in Starbucks 168 00:10:32.722 --> 00:10:36.486 or Costa or one of the concessions on Waterloo Station. And you get, what 169 00:10:36.508 --> 00:10:40.140 do you want, mate? Or you ask her and you think, Come on, really? 170 00:10:40.590 --> 00:10:44.106 I've had a long day. Can I just go home without you adding to my 171 00:10:44.128 --> 00:10:46.940 burden? Yeah, exactly. 172 00:10:49.230 --> 00:10:52.958 I did a job recently for a photography job and it was on a 173 00:10:52.964 --> 00:10:56.570 building site and the client 174 00:10:56.730 --> 00:11:00.490 was actually there. He's a developer and he was there. And it's funny, 175 00:11:00.650 --> 00:11:04.426 when he phoned me, he found my website. Of course, it's got Martin Neves 176 00:11:04.458 --> 00:11:06.686 Photography all over it, but it's got a bit about me. It's got a picture 177 00:11:06.718 --> 00:11:10.466 of me and it says, I'm Katie, and explains all about my 178 00:11:10.488 --> 00:11:14.206 transition and things. I'm very open about it. And so he phoned 179 00:11:14.238 --> 00:11:17.378 me to get me to, quote, for this job and he subsequently booked me for 180 00:11:17.384 --> 00:11:21.174 the job. And then when he was on the phone, he so he 181 00:11:21.212 --> 00:11:24.678 hadn't read it all properly. So who's Martin, then? So I said, oh, 182 00:11:24.844 --> 00:11:28.374 I used to be called Martin, but I'm in transition. And he said, oh, right, 183 00:11:28.412 --> 00:11:32.086 okay. And I assumed just he accepted 184 00:11:32.118 --> 00:11:35.962 it fine. I then got the job and I went out on the building 185 00:11:36.016 --> 00:11:38.940 site to do this job 186 00:11:39.970 --> 00:11:43.678 and all the builders that spoke to him, they were fine. They 187 00:11:43.764 --> 00:11:47.134 clearly saw me as the real me 188 00:11:47.172 --> 00:11:50.798 and calling me my dear and 189 00:11:50.804 --> 00:11:54.606 everything and fine. But then at one 190 00:11:54.628 --> 00:11:58.446 point when we were talking as a group and there's some builders 191 00:11:58.478 --> 00:12:02.242 there, and then him and me, and then he referred to me as he 192 00:12:02.296 --> 00:12:05.842 and him. Where did that come from? 193 00:12:05.976 --> 00:12:09.462 So I just corrected him so she. And then after that, 194 00:12:09.596 --> 00:12:12.920 he couldn't actually bring himself to say she or her. 195 00:12:13.530 --> 00:12:16.840 He was just saying Katie the whole time, so 196 00:12:17.210 --> 00:12:20.598 he couldn't get the pronoun. I thought, well, okay, well, that's a win. So I 197 00:12:20.604 --> 00:12:24.394 don't know whether that was him just not accepting me as 198 00:12:24.432 --> 00:12:27.766 female, but I don't know. But it just seemed a bit odd that he couldn't 199 00:12:27.798 --> 00:12:30.700 actually bring himself to say her or she. 200 00:12:31.310 --> 00:12:35.110 Yeah. I find some people it's easier to use your name, and I 201 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:38.846 say this to people when I'm training, that if you're not sure you're not 202 00:12:38.868 --> 00:12:42.318 comfortable, just use someone's name all the time because they say that's their name. You 203 00:12:42.324 --> 00:12:45.826 can't get it wrong. That is often the best way 204 00:12:45.848 --> 00:12:49.298 out. If you're worried about making a slip up, just stick to the 205 00:12:49.304 --> 00:12:53.090 name. Yeah. Or even just go for they them. 206 00:12:53.160 --> 00:12:56.978 Because that covers everyone. You can't get it 207 00:12:56.984 --> 00:13:00.662 wrong that way, can you? No, not at all. Well, there's some people do 208 00:13:00.716 --> 00:13:04.546 question the use of a singular. They them. But we all know the challenge 209 00:13:04.578 --> 00:13:06.200 with that as well. But yeah, 210 00:13:08.570 --> 00:13:12.346 as you said just now, you had this big dilemma. You'd obviously planned it, you 211 00:13:12.368 --> 00:13:16.140 were going to do what you had to do, and you picked a date. 212 00:13:16.590 --> 00:13:20.346 So how many times, maybe in the last year before that, had you 213 00:13:20.368 --> 00:13:23.982 had that go no go situation? Or was this kind of this was the first 214 00:13:24.036 --> 00:13:27.854 attempt at doing it, or. Had you backed off before it was 215 00:13:27.892 --> 00:13:30.000 actually the first attempt at doing it? Yeah, 216 00:13:31.490 --> 00:13:35.166 I did it all pretty much to plan. Yeah. It's 217 00:13:35.198 --> 00:13:39.026 funny, actually, because I did it, I only admitted to 218 00:13:39.048 --> 00:13:42.434 myself that I've had gender dysphoria all my life 219 00:13:42.472 --> 00:13:45.746 and previously considered myself as a cross 220 00:13:45.778 --> 00:13:48.440 dresser. So that was right up until 221 00:13:50.570 --> 00:13:53.506 what was it? October November 222 00:13:53.698 --> 00:13:57.510 2017, when my gender dysphoria just went through the roof? I 223 00:13:57.580 --> 00:14:01.338 wasn't expecting it to do it at all, but it just went through the 224 00:14:01.344 --> 00:14:04.954 roof. And then I just didn't know what gender I was at all. And then 225 00:14:04.992 --> 00:14:08.634 after a whole journey of discovery, then went up 226 00:14:08.672 --> 00:14:12.230 to it was January the 11th, 227 00:14:12.310 --> 00:14:15.840 2018. That's when I admitted to myself that I was trans. 228 00:14:16.290 --> 00:14:19.754 And then it was then, like, full steam 229 00:14:19.802 --> 00:14:23.470 ahead, right. I've missed myself. I need to do something about it. 230 00:14:23.540 --> 00:14:27.186 And then I just started planning for it. And because of some of the 231 00:14:27.208 --> 00:14:30.498 work that I had in some of the weddings that I was photographing, particularly, that 232 00:14:30.504 --> 00:14:34.274 was the main concern. I wanted to start living full 233 00:14:34.312 --> 00:14:38.162 time as female from early September. And that's exactly 234 00:14:38.216 --> 00:14:41.958 what happened. It was September the second 2018 that I 235 00:14:41.964 --> 00:14:45.734 started living full time as female. But what I did do, I came out to 236 00:14:45.772 --> 00:14:49.190 everyone earlier. I came out on the 26 April 237 00:14:49.610 --> 00:14:53.354 2018, so I had quite a few months in between and that was 238 00:14:53.392 --> 00:14:57.146 really, really awkward. If I had the time again, I wouldn't come out 239 00:14:57.168 --> 00:15:00.938 as early. But what I did, I did a straw poll of quite a lot 240 00:15:00.944 --> 00:15:04.750 of my trans friends to say, well, look, I'm planning on 241 00:15:04.820 --> 00:15:08.046 coming out in September. Sorry, going full time in 242 00:15:08.068 --> 00:15:11.726 September. Should I come out earlier because should I come out 243 00:15:11.748 --> 00:15:15.406 now or should I wait till a few weeks before? Because the original 244 00:15:15.438 --> 00:15:19.246 plan was to come out just a few weeks before and then just go straight 245 00:15:19.278 --> 00:15:22.658 into it. And pretty much unanimously they said, 246 00:15:22.744 --> 00:15:26.450 no, come out earlier, come out now, sooner rather than later. 247 00:15:26.520 --> 00:15:30.166 Give people time to get their heads around it. I 248 00:15:30.188 --> 00:15:33.814 thought, okay, so I did so say 26 April. That's when I came 249 00:15:33.852 --> 00:15:37.654 out. But people actually got their heads around it a lot 250 00:15:37.692 --> 00:15:41.426 quicker than I gave them credit for. And then I found that they started 251 00:15:41.468 --> 00:15:45.210 getting impatient with me because what was happening is I was living that double life 252 00:15:45.280 --> 00:15:48.954 where people knew that I was trans, I'd come out as trans. They 253 00:15:48.992 --> 00:15:52.800 knew my female name was Katie, but 254 00:15:53.250 --> 00:15:56.846 business networking and on jobs, I was still presenting as 255 00:15:56.868 --> 00:16:00.480 male. So it was a very confusing time, all 256 00:16:01.090 --> 00:16:04.514 getting a lot of people some people were calling me 257 00:16:04.552 --> 00:16:08.034 Martin, some people were calling me Katie, some people were calling me 258 00:16:08.072 --> 00:16:11.634 Matey, and I had a lot 259 00:16:11.672 --> 00:16:13.860 of hello you. 260 00:16:15.290 --> 00:16:18.934 They didn't know what to call me. It was a very confusing time for them, 261 00:16:18.972 --> 00:16:22.578 bless them. I love matey. I think Matey's fantastic, isn't 262 00:16:22.594 --> 00:16:23.160 it? 263 00:16:26.330 --> 00:16:29.610 I never expected at all I had. A similar experience 264 00:16:29.680 --> 00:16:33.226 because I called it transitioning in 265 00:16:33.248 --> 00:16:37.066 chunks. So I basically picked things off that I was doing and sort 266 00:16:37.088 --> 00:16:40.826 of transitioned in those roles. And it became the point where 267 00:16:40.848 --> 00:16:44.014 I got to a tipping point where most of me was Joe and the rest 268 00:16:44.052 --> 00:16:46.926 of me was sort of like just the dreg. Well, actually the dregs was my 269 00:16:46.948 --> 00:16:50.174 major employment. Yeah. And I found 270 00:16:50.212 --> 00:16:53.918 that personally quite tricky. And also for the 271 00:16:53.924 --> 00:16:57.726 people who knew both sides of me, that was also tricky for them. And 272 00:16:57.748 --> 00:17:00.466 I kind of had to explain to them, if you can't see me and you 273 00:17:00.488 --> 00:17:03.826 can't tell, call me my old name. If you can see me and it looks 274 00:17:03.848 --> 00:17:07.686 like if I look like Joe and dress like Joe, then call me 275 00:17:07.708 --> 00:17:10.198 Joe. If you can't tell, call me the old name. And that's kind of the 276 00:17:10.204 --> 00:17:11.720 way I worked it. But. 277 00:17:15.850 --> 00:17:19.458 I think with hindsight, ripping the plaster off and jumping 278 00:17:19.634 --> 00:17:23.366 all in as quick as you can for me, with 279 00:17:23.388 --> 00:17:26.710 hindsight would have been a better way of doing it. I would have definitely delayed. 280 00:17:26.790 --> 00:17:29.546 I wouldn't have come out if I did it again, I wouldn't come out as 281 00:17:29.568 --> 00:17:33.262 early as April. I think going full time in 282 00:17:33.316 --> 00:17:36.510 early September, I would have maybe come out in August. 283 00:17:39.090 --> 00:17:42.686 I think that would have been the right time frame. What was the difference in 284 00:17:42.708 --> 00:17:46.058 your life between April and September then? What was that 285 00:17:46.084 --> 00:17:49.810 lag? What was the hold off? What that was, was that it was 286 00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:53.534 the wedding side of my business that I was worried about. The weddings 287 00:17:53.582 --> 00:17:56.942 was where I felt most vulnerable, to be honest. 288 00:17:57.016 --> 00:18:00.678 Because at weddings you get all sorts of 289 00:18:00.684 --> 00:18:04.200 people there, from very young to very old, and in my experience, 290 00:18:04.730 --> 00:18:08.362 it tends to be the older people who have trouble getting their heads around 291 00:18:08.416 --> 00:18:11.020 this and understanding it, 292 00:18:12.350 --> 00:18:16.182 whereas I think younger people generally accept it a lot more readily 293 00:18:16.326 --> 00:18:20.166 than older people. So I was really 294 00:18:20.208 --> 00:18:23.754 worried about that, and I was worried also at weddings. 295 00:18:23.882 --> 00:18:27.626 So as well as you could have bigoted old aunts 296 00:18:27.658 --> 00:18:30.320 and uncles as well as that, 297 00:18:33.170 --> 00:18:36.910 there's lots of booze, isn't there, at weddings? And not just that it's free booze, 298 00:18:36.990 --> 00:18:40.194 so free booze and bigots is not a great 299 00:18:40.392 --> 00:18:44.226 recipe. So I just thought, well, that's where I felt my most 300 00:18:44.248 --> 00:18:47.346 vulnerable. So I thought, well, I had a load of weddings that were booked up 301 00:18:47.368 --> 00:18:51.062 to then and I'd already made a decision, because 302 00:18:51.116 --> 00:18:54.690 I don't just do weddings, I do a lot of commercial photography. It was mainly 303 00:18:54.770 --> 00:18:57.720 corporate photography and videography and that sort of thing, 304 00:18:58.490 --> 00:19:02.118 but the weddings were about a third of my income. I'd 305 00:19:02.134 --> 00:19:05.674 already decided I used to do lots of wedding fairs, so nearly every 306 00:19:05.712 --> 00:19:09.478 Sunday I was off doing a wedding fair. But wedding fairs 307 00:19:09.494 --> 00:19:13.178 are very competitive, there are just so many photographers around and 308 00:19:13.264 --> 00:19:16.800 they can book loads of photographers in at these wedding fairs. So 309 00:19:17.330 --> 00:19:21.086 even the smallest wedding fair, you'd have four photographers there, and larger ones, you'd have 310 00:19:21.108 --> 00:19:24.894 like ten or something, and they're so competitive. And where I am, 311 00:19:24.932 --> 00:19:28.002 I'm sort of aimed more at the mid to top end of the market anyway, 312 00:19:28.056 --> 00:19:30.898 so already a lot of my market isn't there because a lot of people that 313 00:19:30.904 --> 00:19:34.242 go to wedding fairs, they're looking for a bargain, they just want something 314 00:19:34.296 --> 00:19:37.590 cheap. They're not in my market 315 00:19:37.660 --> 00:19:40.994 anyway, so already I'm limiting 316 00:19:41.042 --> 00:19:44.726 myself. But then I just felt really 317 00:19:44.748 --> 00:19:47.910 uneasy, particularly mainly because of my voice, 318 00:19:50.250 --> 00:19:54.026 because what I didn't want often, you can grab hold of it or you can 319 00:19:54.048 --> 00:19:57.610 call people over just to get their attention, because you have to be super confident 320 00:19:57.950 --> 00:20:01.786 when you're doing these wedding fairs. And I wasn't confident particularly with my 321 00:20:01.808 --> 00:20:05.374 voice. Now my voice hasn't it's lightened a bit from what it was, but it 322 00:20:05.412 --> 00:20:09.150 hasn't lightened that much. I know I still sound like a bloke. 323 00:20:09.970 --> 00:20:13.598 Now, when people see me in person, that's not too bad. On the phone, I 324 00:20:13.604 --> 00:20:16.894 just get misgendered all the time. But I just find 325 00:20:16.932 --> 00:20:20.686 that at a wedding fair, I wasn't 326 00:20:20.718 --> 00:20:23.634 confident enough to be able to stand there. Because I think if I called someone 327 00:20:23.672 --> 00:20:26.466 over, if I grabbed someone, they might hear my voice, but then not see me 328 00:20:26.488 --> 00:20:29.654 straight away. And then they'd see me standing there in front of the banner saying, 329 00:20:29.692 --> 00:20:33.366 martin needs photography and film. And I just thought, I'm just 330 00:20:33.388 --> 00:20:36.642 loading the dice against me, because I thought, well, even though young couples 331 00:20:36.706 --> 00:20:40.426 might be okay with me being trans, they 332 00:20:40.448 --> 00:20:42.860 probably would be. Most, I think, would be 333 00:20:44.110 --> 00:20:47.834 apart from some that may be very religious, they might 334 00:20:47.872 --> 00:20:51.658 not, because a lot of those aren't. I just thought 335 00:20:51.744 --> 00:20:55.558 they just might think, well, what about our guests? And what guests 336 00:20:55.574 --> 00:20:58.446 are we inviting? And we've got a load of elderly ones. If they know that 337 00:20:58.468 --> 00:21:01.406 some of them are a bit outspoken or a bit bigoted, they might just feel 338 00:21:01.428 --> 00:21:05.074 a bit awkward about booking a trans photographer because they might think, well, 339 00:21:05.272 --> 00:21:09.010 is it a problem that we just needn't have? And it 340 00:21:09.080 --> 00:21:12.930 just might be easier to book a non transphotographer? 341 00:21:14.150 --> 00:21:17.810 You say that I've experienced that 342 00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:21.654 in my life, where the person you're talking to is kind of, 343 00:21:21.692 --> 00:21:25.526 I'm okay with you, I haven't got a problem with you, whoever you are, 344 00:21:25.548 --> 00:21:29.046 you're fine. But I'm worried about what other people will think. And what they're saying 345 00:21:29.068 --> 00:21:32.858 is, I'm worried what other people will think of me if I introduce you. And 346 00:21:32.864 --> 00:21:36.186 I'm worried that they're going to be dangerous, and so therefore, I'd rather not take 347 00:21:36.208 --> 00:21:39.706 a risk, so I'll go somewhere else. And that's kind 348 00:21:39.728 --> 00:21:43.242 of this bias by proxy. You're almost imprinting your biases 349 00:21:43.306 --> 00:21:46.590 onto somebody else and assuming the worst. Absolutely, 350 00:21:46.740 --> 00:21:50.574 yeah. And I think I've had that with my commercial work as well. 351 00:21:50.692 --> 00:21:53.920 I've definitely lost some work because of that, definitely. 352 00:21:54.370 --> 00:21:57.746 But with the weddings, I just decided to preempt it. And so I just thought, 353 00:21:57.768 --> 00:22:01.618 well, I'm just going to take the hit. And so I stopped doing the 354 00:22:01.624 --> 00:22:05.394 wedding fest, and consequently, the income from the wedding side 355 00:22:05.432 --> 00:22:08.642 of my business has dropped massively. I don't do that many 356 00:22:08.696 --> 00:22:12.438 now, so I just do the ones where people are recommended and 357 00:22:12.444 --> 00:22:15.346 they know that I can do a good job and I get recommended and they're 358 00:22:15.378 --> 00:22:18.954 fine and I just do it. But I did have an interesting one, 359 00:22:18.992 --> 00:22:22.602 actually, over the time of my transition, where I 360 00:22:22.656 --> 00:22:26.506 photographed the wedding ceremony as Martin and 361 00:22:26.528 --> 00:22:30.366 the reception as Katie. I probably 362 00:22:30.388 --> 00:22:34.158 ought to expand on that. They weren't on the 363 00:22:34.164 --> 00:22:37.678 same day. They were months apart. It was a 364 00:22:37.684 --> 00:22:41.294 couple that they actually got married in 365 00:22:41.332 --> 00:22:45.102 secret and there were only four people there, 366 00:22:45.156 --> 00:22:48.498 including the couple. Well, it was four people plus me and a 367 00:22:48.504 --> 00:22:52.226 videographer. So they just got married at a registry office and then I 368 00:22:52.248 --> 00:22:55.586 had the two witnesses and then went off just for photo shoot. 369 00:22:55.618 --> 00:22:59.366 So that was in April 2018. So 370 00:22:59.388 --> 00:23:03.014 that was just a few weeks just before I came out. But 371 00:23:03.052 --> 00:23:06.758 then their reception was 372 00:23:06.844 --> 00:23:10.306 in late August. It was the late August bank holiday in 373 00:23:10.348 --> 00:23:12.540 2018. So it was those few months 374 00:23:14.030 --> 00:23:17.754 I photographed the wedding ceremony and then I came out and the couple were 375 00:23:17.792 --> 00:23:21.306 brilliant, they were so supportive of me. They're brilliant, they were sort of following me 376 00:23:21.328 --> 00:23:25.134 all the way through, it was great. And although their 377 00:23:25.252 --> 00:23:28.798 wedding reception was just before 378 00:23:28.964 --> 00:23:32.666 I was going to be living full time as female, because originally I was planning 379 00:23:32.698 --> 00:23:36.366 to do that as Martin. Because a whole load that I had lined up that 380 00:23:36.388 --> 00:23:38.866 was going to be as Martin. And I was just going to do that and 381 00:23:38.888 --> 00:23:42.670 just do that and put it to bed. That's it. But they were so supportive, 382 00:23:42.750 --> 00:23:45.298 they really encouraged me and they said, oh, we'd really like you to do it 383 00:23:45.304 --> 00:23:49.154 as Katie. And I didn't know whether 384 00:23:49.192 --> 00:23:52.230 I'd be able to, and I was I don't know, I was really nervous 385 00:23:54.730 --> 00:23:57.766 and I said, I'm going to have to leave it to the last minute to 386 00:23:57.788 --> 00:24:01.126 decide whether I can do it or not. But I did it and I'm so 387 00:24:01.148 --> 00:24:04.570 glad I did, because they were brilliant and I didn't have any problems at all. 388 00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:08.106 And the majority of the sort of style of photography that I do 389 00:24:08.208 --> 00:24:11.894 weddings is repertoire, so it's very natural documentary photography, a lot of candid 390 00:24:11.942 --> 00:24:15.566 photography, because I think it's so much nicer and it brings out the 391 00:24:15.588 --> 00:24:19.246 characters of people. Also, it's less intrusive on the 392 00:24:19.268 --> 00:24:22.766 wedding. So that was the majority of it. So the majority of the 393 00:24:22.788 --> 00:24:26.242 time, most people didn't hear 394 00:24:26.296 --> 00:24:29.986 me speaking loudly anyway, so that 395 00:24:30.008 --> 00:24:32.914 wasn't a problem. But the only problem was that they did want a few group 396 00:24:32.952 --> 00:24:36.722 shots, which most couples do. Of course, with those, I had to. Project 397 00:24:36.776 --> 00:24:40.086 my voice, of course, put row them in. Yes. There's one 398 00:24:40.108 --> 00:24:43.606 thing talking in a more feminine voice anyway. There's another thing 399 00:24:43.788 --> 00:24:47.080 actually projecting your voice, doing it. It's really hard, 400 00:24:48.170 --> 00:24:52.018 you know that? It's hard, isn't it? So I was 401 00:24:52.044 --> 00:24:55.786