WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.490 --> 00:00:04.094 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am the host of the 2 00:00:04.132 --> 00:00:07.886 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a 3 00:00:07.908 --> 00:00:11.726 number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the 4 00:00:11.748 --> 00:00:15.566 subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a 5 00:00:15.588 --> 00:00:18.862 place for everyone to thrive in. If you'd like to join me in the future, 6 00:00:18.916 --> 00:00:20.574 then please do drop me a line to 7 00:00:20.612 --> 00:00:24.030 jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 8 00:00:24.530 --> 00:00:28.262 You'll be able to catch up with all of the shows on itunes, Spotify and 9 00:00:28.316 --> 00:00:32.162 all of the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf 10 00:00:32.226 --> 00:00:35.634 and let's get going. Today is episode 11 00:00:35.682 --> 00:00:39.234 three with the title of Diversity 12 00:00:39.362 --> 00:00:43.178 fatigue through the lens of a middle aged white guy. 13 00:00:43.344 --> 00:00:46.646 And I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Scott 14 00:00:46.678 --> 00:00:50.374 MacArthur, no less. And I first met Scott at a Professional 15 00:00:50.422 --> 00:00:54.126 Speaking Association conference in 2018, and we hit it 16 00:00:54.148 --> 00:00:57.966 off straight away. Scott is a mentor, a speaker, a 17 00:00:57.988 --> 00:01:01.214 writer, and, as he says, has worked with 18 00:01:01.412 --> 00:01:05.250 musical producers as a rock musical producer, a TEDx speaker, a business 19 00:01:05.320 --> 00:01:09.022 consultant, an HR director, a zoo ambassador, 20 00:01:09.086 --> 00:01:12.926 research scientist. And today, Scott focuses his writing and keynote 21 00:01:12.958 --> 00:01:16.758 speeches on the employee experience and the workplace of 22 00:01:16.764 --> 00:01:20.534 the future. This is all through his lens experiences of science and 23 00:01:20.572 --> 00:01:23.826 technology. He has a particular interest in emergent 24 00:01:23.858 --> 00:01:27.706 technologies and cognitive diversity. Scott has 25 00:01:27.728 --> 00:01:30.938 worked in over 300 companies worldwide wow. 26 00:01:31.104 --> 00:01:34.902 Including PwC atos, Superdry, 27 00:01:34.966 --> 00:01:38.646 Willis Deloitte, Specsavers, Capgemini and the Chinese 28 00:01:38.678 --> 00:01:42.222 Olympic Authority. I bet they've got problems at the moment. So I asked 29 00:01:42.276 --> 00:01:45.758 Scott to describe his superpower and he said, 30 00:01:45.924 --> 00:01:49.726 I know how to read, so hello, Scott. How are 31 00:01:49.748 --> 00:01:53.486 you? Hi, Jo. Nice to speak to you. How are you? I'm very good, 32 00:01:53.508 --> 00:01:57.300 thank you. We met 33 00:01:58.550 --> 00:02:01.940 a year and a bit ago at that PSA conference in 34 00:02:02.470 --> 00:02:06.166 where was it? Coventry way, wasn't it? Coventry, yes. That was 35 00:02:06.188 --> 00:02:09.766 an interesting experience in itself, wasn't it? Yeah, we kind of 36 00:02:09.788 --> 00:02:13.426 gravitated, kind of kindred like minded 37 00:02:13.458 --> 00:02:15.160 spirits. Yeah, 38 00:02:21.870 --> 00:02:25.546 it was good. It was interesting because I think, if I remember rightly, there 39 00:02:25.568 --> 00:02:29.146 was quite a lot of people knew each other, and you and 40 00:02:29.168 --> 00:02:32.874 I didn't really know many people there. That's why 41 00:02:32.912 --> 00:02:36.458 we gravitated. But it was a good force of gravity. 42 00:02:36.554 --> 00:02:39.998 I'll never forget that. It was a good introduction. It was, yeah. 43 00:02:40.164 --> 00:02:43.566 It's quite daunting when you go to these events for the first time on your 44 00:02:43.588 --> 00:02:47.038 own. Yes. And everybody seems to know each other, don't 45 00:02:47.054 --> 00:02:50.818 they? I think we looked after each other well. I 46 00:02:50.824 --> 00:02:54.500 think we did. And I mean, actually, if I'm absolutely honest, 47 00:02:55.450 --> 00:02:59.142 despite the fact I'm a public speaker these days, I feel 48 00:02:59.196 --> 00:03:02.360 quite uncomfortable in social environments like that. 49 00:03:04.170 --> 00:03:07.774 For example, I dread dinner parties 50 00:03:07.842 --> 00:03:11.530 and I can't stand formal networking events. 51 00:03:13.470 --> 00:03:17.226 I think I can empathise with people who struggle with it, kind 52 00:03:17.248 --> 00:03:21.002 of to. Collect sort of self professed introvert. Is that how you describe yourself 53 00:03:21.056 --> 00:03:24.030 or. Is it just I don't think I'm an introvert. 54 00:03:24.690 --> 00:03:28.480 I've done all the tests and you know that I'm not a great 55 00:03:29.010 --> 00:03:32.734 believer in the science is very poor behind most of these 56 00:03:32.772 --> 00:03:35.982 tests, but I guess I'm maybe an 57 00:03:36.036 --> 00:03:39.330 introverted extrovert. I don't know if that makes any sense, 58 00:03:39.400 --> 00:03:43.122 but I like my own company. I really like my own company. 59 00:03:43.176 --> 00:03:46.100 And I think it's partly why my superpower is reading books, because 60 00:03:46.950 --> 00:03:49.800 I love being in the company of Tolstoy or, 61 00:03:50.650 --> 00:03:53.160 you know, and I can do that by opening a book. 62 00:03:54.170 --> 00:03:57.570 And I can be quite difficult to get to know as well, because 63 00:03:57.740 --> 00:04:01.562 I put up this shield quite often that's not always 64 00:04:01.616 --> 00:04:04.678 particularly welcoming. So, yeah, I'm 65 00:04:04.854 --> 00:04:08.380 introverted extrovert. I'm extroverted introvert. I don't really know 66 00:04:08.750 --> 00:04:11.020 ambivert, I think is the kind of 67 00:04:12.430 --> 00:04:16.126 yeah, I've read. About that as well, but maybe I don't know. 68 00:04:16.148 --> 00:04:19.998 But certainly I don't feel comfortable in social environments and this is 69 00:04:20.004 --> 00:04:23.120 easy because I know you and I could talk to you all day, 70 00:04:23.570 --> 00:04:27.266 but certainly in these environments I feel 71 00:04:27.288 --> 00:04:31.134 quite uncomfortable. But the PSA, the Professional Speakers Association, does get easier, 72 00:04:31.182 --> 00:04:34.382 doesn't it, once you get into it and you crack the veneer 73 00:04:34.446 --> 00:04:36.980 of you get to know these 74 00:04:37.910 --> 00:04:41.494 think. Because as 75 00:04:41.532 --> 00:04:44.934 speakers, we're all opinionated, we all want to sell our 76 00:04:44.972 --> 00:04:48.422 ideas, we all have a certain stagecraft and presence about 77 00:04:48.476 --> 00:04:51.942 us. That's probably why it's daunting, I think. Once you realise 78 00:04:52.006 --> 00:04:55.626 that you are the same ilk, if you 79 00:04:55.648 --> 00:04:59.398 like, and then people start finding us daunting now, don't 80 00:04:59.414 --> 00:05:03.214 they? And it's kind of oh, they do. I think it's just a case 81 00:05:03.252 --> 00:05:06.926 of breaking that ice and just jumping in. I think 82 00:05:06.948 --> 00:05:10.798 both feet first isn't mean. There's a Scottish saying, I don't know 83 00:05:10.804 --> 00:05:13.706 how well it translates, but it's we're all Jock Thompson's 84 00:05:13.738 --> 00:05:17.486 Bayams. And what that basically says is we're all the 85 00:05:17.588 --> 00:05:21.220 know, we're all from the same place, but 86 00:05:21.670 --> 00:05:25.300 sometimes you have to rediscover that you're just the same as everybody else. 87 00:05:25.750 --> 00:05:28.866 And in that environment, it can be quite difficult. I noticed you've done a couple 88 00:05:28.888 --> 00:05:32.166 of ten X's over your life. I watched a few on the YouTube the other 89 00:05:32.188 --> 00:05:35.910 day and if anyone's listening in, do look up Scott MacArthur's 90 00:05:36.250 --> 00:05:39.626 couple of TEDx on YouTube. If you tell us the titles and just tell us 91 00:05:39.648 --> 00:05:43.242 what that experience is like. Well, I've done two. 92 00:05:43.376 --> 00:05:46.454 One was one of the biggest ones in Europe, which was TEDx 93 00:05:46.502 --> 00:05:49.980 Warwick. There was a couple of thousand people there. 94 00:05:53.730 --> 00:05:57.514 That was quite a moment for me. I call it a threshold 95 00:05:57.562 --> 00:06:00.974 moment. You have these experiences in your life that suddenly you go, 96 00:06:01.012 --> 00:06:04.786 Whoa. And you see things differently. So at that 97 00:06:04.808 --> 00:06:08.494 TEDx, I spoke about why facts don't 98 00:06:08.542 --> 00:06:12.274 change people and it's all about how important storytelling is 99 00:06:12.312 --> 00:06:16.114 and how important cognitive bias is, et cetera. And I was coming 100 00:06:16.152 --> 00:06:19.622 at that from my scientific and psychological training and 101 00:06:19.676 --> 00:06:23.286 past. But I'll tell you what the best that was, it wasn't the 102 00:06:23.308 --> 00:06:27.062 TEDx. I mean, that was daunting. I'd done lots of speaking at that point, 103 00:06:27.116 --> 00:06:30.826 but having 2000 people in front of you and a red dot, it 104 00:06:30.848 --> 00:06:34.346 was quite scary. But it was the meal afterwards that was 105 00:06:34.368 --> 00:06:38.186 actually the threshold moment because they took us out to a really 106 00:06:38.208 --> 00:06:41.930 nice hotel to have dinner and I'm sat there 107 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:45.774 with I'll just give you a few. There was a guy who's become 108 00:06:45.812 --> 00:06:49.150 a dear friend who's one of the UK's leading AI experts. 109 00:06:49.490 --> 00:06:52.990 There was a guy who was a prison guard from California. 110 00:06:53.330 --> 00:06:57.026 There was a professor from Bristol who's one of the world's leading authorities on 111 00:06:57.048 --> 00:07:00.846 Nanotechnology. She's an incredible creature. There was a woman 112 00:07:00.878 --> 00:07:04.658 there who was an opera singer, who was one of the she was 113 00:07:04.744 --> 00:07:08.418 lead soprano in the Covent 114 00:07:08.434 --> 00:07:12.246 Garden Opera Company. Unbelievably different people. And we 115 00:07:12.268 --> 00:07:15.430 were all sitting there giving each other feedback 116 00:07:16.490 --> 00:07:19.846 and it was just like it was 117 00:07:19.868 --> 00:07:23.706 incredible. You wouldn't, on the face of it, think that an opera singer could tell 118 00:07:23.728 --> 00:07:27.434 somebody from a scientific background about how to improve his talk, 119 00:07:27.472 --> 00:07:31.014 but she really could. So that was a threshold 120 00:07:31.062 --> 00:07:34.846 moment. The second one I did was TEDx Telford, which 121 00:07:34.868 --> 00:07:38.634 is a much smaller 100 people, much, much smaller 122 00:07:38.762 --> 00:07:42.286 experience. But the interview set up was terrific. And at that 123 00:07:42.308 --> 00:07:46.126 one I did something that I never thought I would do. I spoke 124 00:07:46.158 --> 00:07:49.250 about my relationship with my grandfather 125 00:07:49.830 --> 00:07:53.666 who was very dear to me and the talk was called 126 00:07:53.848 --> 00:07:57.154 who is paying for Your attention? And it was all about how 127 00:07:57.352 --> 00:08:01.046 the analogue technologies, which is the future. I mean, analogue is the 128 00:08:01.068 --> 00:08:04.786 next big thing. Digital is coming to the end of its time and analogue 129 00:08:04.818 --> 00:08:08.598 is going to be next. And I was basically going back to the future. I 130 00:08:08.604 --> 00:08:12.314 was explaining to them why a letter I'd had 131 00:08:12.352 --> 00:08:14.986 from my grandfather and I've got a box of them that are foot deep and 132 00:08:15.008 --> 00:08:18.246 I call it my grandfather's foot, which always cocks people's 133 00:08:18.278 --> 00:08:22.106 attention. But I could smell his aftershave, I 134 00:08:22.128 --> 00:08:25.726 could feel his writing and where he changed his mind and there was all these 135 00:08:25.748 --> 00:08:29.454 people crying in the audience. It was wonderful. So 136 00:08:29.572 --> 00:08:32.846 that one was more I guess it was slightly more about 137 00:08:33.028 --> 00:08:36.738 myself. It was about my own story and telling it for the 138 00:08:36.744 --> 00:08:40.466 first time publicly, which was something I do as a speaker a lot. But 139 00:08:40.488 --> 00:08:43.998 that was a really intimate one. I was in tears. 140 00:08:44.094 --> 00:08:47.718 I came out off the stage and I was crying. You can't see that in 141 00:08:47.724 --> 00:08:51.478 the video. But I was I was crying. And so it was a 142 00:08:51.484 --> 00:08:54.840 complete two different experiences. But I'll tell you what 143 00:08:55.690 --> 00:08:59.458 and I know some people criticise TEDx and say there's 144 00:08:59.474 --> 00:09:03.066 too many of them now and you don't get paid to do it. 145 00:09:03.248 --> 00:09:06.554 That's a load of nonsense. I absolutely 146 00:09:06.752 --> 00:09:10.218 love it and I cannot wait to do the next one. It's a 147 00:09:10.224 --> 00:09:13.982 privilege to have the opportunity to stand up there and meet 148 00:09:14.036 --> 00:09:17.086 these incredible people. I mean, the one at 149 00:09:17.188 --> 00:09:20.910 Telford, funny enough, there was a diversity expert, 150 00:09:21.730 --> 00:09:24.820 there was a marketing guru, there was a guy who 151 00:09:25.350 --> 00:09:28.820 is a design expert, there was a chap who was a 152 00:09:29.910 --> 00:09:31.890 global warming expert. 153 00:09:35.750 --> 00:09:39.240 We've lost Scott. Hold on, something just happened. 154 00:09:39.850 --> 00:09:43.394 We've got a global warming expert and. An incredible 155 00:09:43.442 --> 00:09:47.286 array of different types of people. So it 156 00:09:47.308 --> 00:09:51.114 was a privilege, and it is a privilege to be associated with it. 157 00:09:51.152 --> 00:09:54.778 So bring on the next one. Yeah, I've not done one yet. 158 00:09:54.944 --> 00:09:58.634 I have applied once. I didn't get accepted. I don't think I found 159 00:09:58.672 --> 00:10:02.182 my story. I need to find something unique, 160 00:10:02.246 --> 00:10:05.662 something I've got a passion about, and crystallise it as a one 161 00:10:05.716 --> 00:10:09.566 off. Whereas I think before, the mistake I made was I tried 162 00:10:09.588 --> 00:10:12.960 to just tell a general, sort of like, doesn't work. 163 00:10:15.730 --> 00:10:19.520 It's not repurposing an existing keynote. This is developing something specific. 164 00:10:21.670 --> 00:10:25.278 And I think the other thing is the mistake I made well, not a mistake, 165 00:10:25.374 --> 00:10:28.934 it was a learning thing. The first one. Well, they both get good 166 00:10:28.972 --> 00:10:32.678 titles. Why facts don't change. People are you paying attention? Or who is paying for 167 00:10:32.684 --> 00:10:36.438 your attention? They're both easy to remember, they're both easy to say. And 168 00:10:36.524 --> 00:10:40.134 people, they are what I call generative. You immediately think, 169 00:10:40.172 --> 00:10:43.978 what's he going to be talking about? And I think that helps. So if 170 00:10:43.984 --> 00:10:46.666 you go in there, and some people do, and I don't think you should, but 171 00:10:46.688 --> 00:10:50.510 you go in there and you're selling a book or you're selling a product, 172 00:10:50.580 --> 00:10:52.960 I don't think that works. You just have to be yourself 173 00:10:54.130 --> 00:10:56.640 and come up with something from your experience 174 00:10:57.730 --> 00:11:00.480 that really captures people. 175 00:11:01.490 --> 00:11:04.960 Actually, I'll tell you what you can speak about. I remember you telling me this. 176 00:11:05.810 --> 00:11:08.846 You said to me, and this is quite personal, so you might want to edit 177 00:11:08.878 --> 00:11:12.434 this out, Jo, but you said to me, one of my 178 00:11:12.472 --> 00:11:16.086 stories is about how I turned my wife into a lesbian. Yes. 179 00:11:16.268 --> 00:11:19.910 That would get 100,000 bites in a second on a TEDx. 180 00:11:20.410 --> 00:11:24.006 It would, because what's that 181 00:11:24.028 --> 00:11:27.854 about? It's got, obviously, sex, it's got all sorts of funny. 182 00:11:27.922 --> 00:11:31.290 And it's that sort of title that works as a TEDx. 183 00:11:32.750 --> 00:11:35.930 One of my mentees just now, she's 184 00:11:36.350 --> 00:11:39.814 the chief executive at Twycross Zoo and I'm zoo ambassador 185 00:11:39.862 --> 00:11:43.166 there, and she's just done one, and it was 186 00:11:43.348 --> 00:11:46.030 called How To Be More Bonobo. 187 00:11:46.850 --> 00:11:50.490 And it's rocketed it's over 40,000 hits. 188 00:11:50.570 --> 00:11:54.400 Wow. Because it's just this unusual title and folk go, who's that about? 189 00:11:54.930 --> 00:11:58.146 There's an art to it, and I'm not saying I'm particularly good at it, but 190 00:11:58.168 --> 00:12:01.714 there's an art to it, and I think it is about having one simple thing 191 00:12:01.752 --> 00:12:05.460 that you talk about for 15 minutes. Yeah, no, 192 00:12:05.990 --> 00:12:09.538 I don't half forgotten about that as a talk title. 193 00:12:09.714 --> 00:12:12.578 I've still got it in me. I've still got it in me and maybe that's 194 00:12:12.594 --> 00:12:15.880 the one I expand and go for. 195 00:12:17.850 --> 00:12:20.346 I'm not going to edit this out. I mean, for the benefit of people who 196 00:12:20.368 --> 00:12:24.218 are curious. It's about how I took part. My wife and I took part in 197 00:12:24.224 --> 00:12:28.038 a Channel Four documentary which documented 198 00:12:28.214 --> 00:12:32.014 my gender transition. So we went from what people would 199 00:12:32.052 --> 00:12:35.534 label us as a heterosexual couple into 200 00:12:35.732 --> 00:12:39.482 a same gender couple. So on national 201 00:12:39.546 --> 00:12:43.306 TV, she kind of became a lesbian. And that's kind of the basis 202 00:12:43.338 --> 00:12:46.180 of the talk. But I would go into a lot more about 203 00:12:47.350 --> 00:12:51.186 how we like to label people, how we feel more comfortable, and we put people 204 00:12:51.208 --> 00:12:54.674 in boxes, which is probably the basis of that talk, 205 00:12:54.872 --> 00:12:58.530 that people want to assume that those are our labels. 206 00:12:58.610 --> 00:13:02.246 And actually, we're not sure what our labels are. In fact, we don't bother with 207 00:13:02.268 --> 00:13:05.846 labels in a marriage. That's how we would 208 00:13:05.868 --> 00:13:08.940 describe ourselves. Yes. Of two people. 209 00:13:11.310 --> 00:13:14.300 That's probably a good point. What I need to do is I probably need to 210 00:13:14.910 --> 00:13:18.166 dig out some applications and go on a hunt 211 00:13:18.198 --> 00:13:21.760 for a TEDx opportunity somewhere. Yeah, good point. 212 00:13:23.570 --> 00:13:26.720 It's a great experience. I titled this 213 00:13:27.490 --> 00:13:31.086 when we talked about diversity fatigues with a 214 00:13:31.188 --> 00:13:34.640 lens of a middle aged white guy. And the reason I suggest this is 215 00:13:35.490 --> 00:13:39.278 we hear this expression, white male panellist tail banded around. For me, it's 216 00:13:39.294 --> 00:13:42.606 a horrible expression. It's discriminatory, it's 217 00:13:42.638 --> 00:13:46.120 insulting and doesn't have any place in my world. 218 00:13:47.450 --> 00:13:51.234 But also, I am aware there is diversity fatigue. We're always quoting 219 00:13:51.282 --> 00:13:54.914 McKinsey, we're always quoting these stats. We're throwing 220 00:13:54.962 --> 00:13:58.746 millions and millions globally on unconscious bias training. But I think we 221 00:13:58.768 --> 00:14:02.086 both know it's not working. We're 222 00:14:02.118 --> 00:14:05.290 not causing a shift change in culture 223 00:14:06.110 --> 00:14:09.914 overnight, or even at all. I think the latest stats on gender pay 224 00:14:09.952 --> 00:14:13.470 gap, we're looking at 2080 before we get even gender parity, 225 00:14:14.530 --> 00:14:17.120 almost. We're making it worse before we get there. So 226 00:14:17.970 --> 00:14:21.726 I'm also conscious that I speak to many men and 227 00:14:21.748 --> 00:14:25.586 they're starting to feel marginalised. They're not being involved in the conversation. So how do 228 00:14:25.608 --> 00:14:29.346 you feel as a man, as a white guy in 229 00:14:29.368 --> 00:14:32.878 that space, talking about diversity and cognitive diversity? 230 00:14:33.054 --> 00:14:36.674 Well, there's two parts to that. The professional 231 00:14:36.722 --> 00:14:40.470 part, which I spent 15 232 00:14:40.540 --> 00:14:44.390 years working in the HR world. 233 00:14:44.460 --> 00:14:48.266 I was an HR director, I worked in British gas, I worked in 234 00:14:48.288 --> 00:14:52.138 Scottish and Newcastle, quite male environments, but I worked in what 235 00:14:52.144 --> 00:14:55.180 they used to call equal opportunities for 15 years. 236 00:14:56.350 --> 00:14:59.590 And I professionally 237 00:14:59.670 --> 00:15:03.198 feel excited, actually, about what's happening, because 238 00:15:03.364 --> 00:15:07.214 what you've currently got, and it's a bit like politics at the moment, there 239 00:15:07.252 --> 00:15:10.874 are interim moments. Remember I said that phrase threshold 240 00:15:10.922 --> 00:15:14.378 moments before? I take great pride in being 241 00:15:14.404 --> 00:15:18.062 involved in the laying, the foundation 242 00:15:18.126 --> 00:15:21.970 that's come to today. I think it has moved. 243 00:15:22.710 --> 00:15:26.446 If you'd gone to a gas engineer in the back of a van 244 00:15:26.558 --> 00:15:30.386 in the 1980s when I was a British gas, they would 245 00:15:30.408 --> 00:15:33.894 have laughed at you. And I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about me talking 246 00:15:33.932 --> 00:15:36.934 about equal opportunities. They would just laugh at you. What are you talking about little 247 00:15:36.972 --> 00:15:40.422 girls? But they've got no role in this. Blah, blah, blah. 248 00:15:40.566 --> 00:15:44.170 And now we're at a point where, yeah, it's everywhere. 249 00:15:44.910 --> 00:15:48.586 And for me, it's an interim step because it 250 00:15:48.608 --> 00:15:51.854 shouldn't be like this. It shouldn't be everywhere. It should be like 251 00:15:51.892 --> 00:15:55.726 electricity. It should just be there, but invisible. It shouldn't be something we have to 252 00:15:55.748 --> 00:15:58.654 talk about. That's the next phase. So 253 00:15:58.692 --> 00:16:02.250 professionally, it's amazing. 254 00:16:02.420 --> 00:16:06.238 I'm really excited about it. But personally, 255 00:16:06.414 --> 00:16:08.930 there are things that are getting in my Wick 256 00:16:10.870 --> 00:16:13.730 labelling just drives me nuts. 257 00:16:14.550 --> 00:16:18.134 I hate that toxic masculinity phrase. I 258 00:16:18.172 --> 00:16:21.234 cannot stand it because not just because it's 259 00:16:21.282 --> 00:16:24.774 stupid, but because we all 260 00:16:24.812 --> 00:16:28.474 know you, and I definitely know that if you label somebody something, they 261 00:16:28.512 --> 00:16:32.198 take on that label. So it's completely counterintuitive. 262 00:16:32.294 --> 00:16:35.930 It's crazy. But as a bloke who looks 263 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:39.130 for work in the conference environment, 264 00:16:39.630 --> 00:16:42.654 I now have this monster that I'm competing against, and it's called 265 00:16:42.692 --> 00:16:46.350 diversity, and it hurts my business 266 00:16:46.420 --> 00:16:50.206 right now. So there's a professional side of me 267 00:16:50.228 --> 00:16:53.978 is quite comfortable with it, but in terms of opportunities, for me, it's 268 00:16:53.994 --> 00:16:57.806 had a negative impact. So I have to balance that. And, I mean, 269 00:16:57.828 --> 00:17:01.346 I'm obviously very happy about it in terms of the humanity side of it, but 270 00:17:01.368 --> 00:17:05.218 being in the interim phase is quite complex. And I think one 271 00:17:05.224 --> 00:17:07.606 of the reasons you and I hit off is we can have that sort of 272 00:17:07.628 --> 00:17:11.046 conversation. I don't know what to 273 00:17:11.068 --> 00:17:14.918 say. What do I say? Jo, one of your other phrases that could be 274 00:17:14.924 --> 00:17:18.230 another good TEDx title is, don't be a dick. 275 00:17:18.890 --> 00:17:22.490 You know that you've said that to me a million times. And I think that 276 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:26.362 is really telling because the environment is full of people 277 00:17:26.416 --> 00:17:30.266 on one side being offended. They become professional at being offended. I think that's a 278 00:17:30.288 --> 00:17:33.980 horrible trait. And another side are just becoming more and more 279 00:17:34.290 --> 00:17:37.882 toxic because of the labelling. So, actually, we've got to be really careful 280 00:17:37.946 --> 00:17:41.790 about how we because we're all Jock Thompson's bands, we're all just people 281 00:17:41.860 --> 00:17:45.570 try to do our best. And I think you said in your introduction, helping people 282 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:49.246 thrive. And that's ultimately where I think we're heading. 283 00:17:49.358 --> 00:17:52.018 We're on a journey, and I think we're getting there. I think we're making real 284 00:17:52.104 --> 00:17:55.838 amazing progress. Amazing progress. Yeah. There's 285 00:17:55.854 --> 00:17:59.320 some great points you've pulled up there. And I find sometimes, 286 00:18:00.090 --> 00:18:03.494 let's call it in the DNI space, the conversations go on. You end up these 287 00:18:03.532 --> 00:18:07.234 two polarised camps, the people who won't 288 00:18:07.282 --> 00:18:10.886 change and the people who demand change. And then there's often no room for the 289 00:18:10.908 --> 00:18:14.362 centrist view, where people come together, where people are able to have these, 290 00:18:14.496 --> 00:18:18.234 I don't know, conversations. Please help me understand this. I want 291 00:18:18.272 --> 00:18:21.306 to make things better. I want to make change, and I'd love you to help 292 00:18:21.328 --> 00:18:24.606 me type conversations, but we keep getting caught up with 293 00:18:24.788 --> 00:18:28.206 bad language. We throw in phobias and isms all the 294 00:18:28.228 --> 00:18:31.822 time. Let's be clear, there are some people 295 00:18:31.876 --> 00:18:35.474 who are toxic. There are people out there, it's not males, it's not white 296 00:18:35.512 --> 00:18:39.118 people, there are toxic people, people on both sides of the argument 297 00:18:39.214 --> 00:18:42.770 that won't come together and have conversations. And I understand 298 00:18:42.840 --> 00:18:46.534 why people have entrenched views, having been oppressed, having been 299 00:18:46.572 --> 00:18:49.766 brought up in an environment where they have lived experience 300 00:18:49.948 --> 00:18:53.526 of being discriminated against and bullied and 301 00:18:53.548 --> 00:18:56.710 beaten up and violent. So I understand fully why people have 302 00:18:56.860 --> 00:19:00.442 protection views. But I think in a corporate world, we need to start coming 303 00:19:00.496 --> 00:19:03.562 together in this centrist ground, having open, honest 304 00:19:03.616 --> 00:19:06.986 conversations without fear of 305 00:19:07.088 --> 00:19:10.762 reprisal. If you get it wrong, if you're coming 306 00:19:10.816 --> 00:19:14.110 from a position of respect, from open 307 00:19:14.180 --> 00:19:17.998 heart, to listen, to learn, then we should embrace people like that. And I 308 00:19:18.004 --> 00:19:20.000 think that's the challenge we have at the moment. 309 00:19:21.410 --> 00:19:25.182 But I think we still do detect some 310 00:19:25.316 --> 00:19:28.610 protectionists from the middle aged white guys sometimes, 311 00:19:28.680 --> 00:19:32.178 because often we see initiatives that favour 312 00:19:32.264 --> 00:19:35.794 women, that favour ethnic minorities, that favour to people of different 313 00:19:35.832 --> 00:19:39.318 faith. Almost the point where we're saying, well, actually, if you're the white guy on 314 00:19:39.324 --> 00:19:42.946 this slate for his role, 315 00:19:43.058 --> 00:19:46.386 you stand less change than a diversity candidate. That's 316 00:19:46.418 --> 00:19:49.954 right, yeah. And I mean, that's why we formed 317 00:19:50.082 --> 00:19:53.706 I'm part of a group called the Whole Man Academy. The whole Man Academy, which 318 00:19:53.728 --> 00:19:57.546 is a group of guys. There's three of us, four 319 00:19:57.568 --> 00:20:01.294 of us mainly, who are looking at initially, it was to create a space for 320 00:20:01.332 --> 00:20:04.654 men to talk, because men aren't as 321 00:20:04.692 --> 00:20:08.462 good as others at speaking and 322 00:20:08.596 --> 00:20:12.446 getting airing their feelings, talking about how 323 00:20:12.468 --> 00:20:16.062 they're coping with the label of things like toxic, masculinity 324 00:20:16.126 --> 00:20:19.266 and tim has been really interesting. Jo, our 325 00:20:19.368 --> 00:20:22.670 audience is men only, right? It's 326 00:20:22.750 --> 00:20:26.242 absolutely and deliberately and unashamedly men 327 00:20:26.296 --> 00:20:30.020 only. We've had our biggest audience is women, 328 00:20:30.390 --> 00:20:34.034 which is really interesting. We'll come back to that. And our second biggest 329 00:20:34.082 --> 00:20:37.818 audience is the bisexual and gay community and the 330 00:20:37.824 --> 00:20:41.226 trans community, and our third community is men. 331 00:20:41.408 --> 00:20:44.758 So we seem to be getting this upside 332 00:20:44.854 --> 00:20:48.650 down response and it's really 333 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:51.580 because I'm just watching it what's going on. 334 00:20:52.270 --> 00:20:55.966 And on the whole, I'm speaking in stereotypes, but on the 335 00:20:55.988 --> 00:20:59.534 whole, women are coming because they want their men to come. 336 00:20:59.732 --> 00:21:03.394 So they're saying, I'm going to buy John a ticket because John needs to talk 337 00:21:03.432 --> 00:21:07.278 to somebody about his feelings or about his biases, 338 00:21:07.454 --> 00:21:10.100 and we give them that environment and that's great. 339 00:21:11.350 --> 00:21:15.026 The bi and gay and trans community see to be, and this 340 00:21:15.048 --> 00:21:18.674 is terrible stereotype, I'd love to know what you think of this, but the 341 00:21:18.712 --> 00:21:21.826 impression we are getting is they are more in touch with our feelings, so they're 342 00:21:21.858 --> 00:21:25.480 coming anyway. Half of our audience, literally, in every event, 343 00:21:25.850 --> 00:21:29.660 is from that community. And then finally, we're getting 344 00:21:30.270 --> 00:21:31.500 very few 345 00:21:33.870 --> 00:21:37.594 heterosexual men coming into that environment that want to actually 346 00:21:37.632 --> 00:21:41.166 talk about how they feel. They're just not coming. So it's a 347 00:21:41.188 --> 00:21:44.474 fascinating as an experiment, it's 348 00:21:44.522 --> 00:21:48.366 fascinating. And we've had events where our 349 00:21:48.388 --> 00:21:51.786 last event had Rob Rinder, Judge Render 350 00:21:51.978 --> 00:21:55.614 from the television, that chap, he spoke, 351 00:21:55.662 --> 00:21:59.458 charlie King, who's from TOWIE, came along. I was speaking, 352 00:21:59.544 --> 00:22:03.060 we had some others and we attracted 25 people, 353 00:22:04.070 --> 00:22:06.878 whereas if I do a talk in London, over 100 people turn up if I'm 354 00:22:06.894 --> 00:22:09.574 doing an open thing in a pub. So I get more than the whole man 355 00:22:09.612 --> 00:22:13.000 academy. I think it's the label, it's the man bit. 356 00:22:14.250 --> 00:22:17.734 We're not giving up because I think it's a really worthwhile and an important 357 00:22:17.852 --> 00:22:21.626 piece, particularly given, if you look at the mental health part of it, 358 00:22:21.728 --> 00:22:24.220 so many young men killing themselves 359 00:22:25.310 --> 00:22:28.620 that we need to do something about it, we need to help. 360 00:22:28.990 --> 00:22:32.270 But it's a very interesting social experiment, Jo, 361 00:22:33.170 --> 00:22:36.682 you think of that and it's partly in reaction 362 00:22:36.746 --> 00:22:39.982 to everything's about not 363 00:22:40.036 --> 00:22:43.794 me, and I think that's fair, that's a good 364 00:22:43.832 --> 00:22:47.346 natural human reaction. I'm not sorry for that, not in the 365 00:22:47.368 --> 00:22:49.140 slightest, no. 366 00:22:50.950 --> 00:22:54.580 Speaking from my own lens, my own perspective, and my own lived experience. 367 00:22:55.270 --> 00:22:58.710 What you're saying about people who may be LGBT 368 00:23:00.250 --> 00:23:03.894 I certainly went through a phase in my life where I had to think about 369 00:23:03.932 --> 00:23:07.686 me, who I was, my identity, relationships I 370 00:23:07.708 --> 00:23:11.466 have with other people, some of the things in my life that 371 00:23:11.488 --> 00:23:15.082 I liked disliked, places I want to move from 372 00:23:15.136 --> 00:23:18.886 and to. When I consider my own gender 373 00:23:18.918 --> 00:23:22.598 transition. I had to think about collateral damage, who I was going to hurt. 374 00:23:22.774 --> 00:23:26.158 Was it worth it? Who am I? All this kind of stuff is going on 375 00:23:26.164 --> 00:23:29.962 my head. So I probably did a lot of self reflection, self analysis 376 00:23:30.106 --> 00:23:32.590 about my own sense of self and identity. 377 00:23:34.050 --> 00:23:37.874 And I think many people who go through whatever transition that is in their life, 378 00:23:37.912 --> 00:23:41.358 whether they've had an illness, an incapacity, 379 00:23:41.454 --> 00:23:44.722 or they've had a major death in their family or close 380 00:23:44.776 --> 00:23:48.494 friends, we all start to then think about our own mortality and humanity, 381 00:23:48.542 --> 00:23:52.134 don't we, at that point? Yeah. And I think it's quite probably a true 382 00:23:52.172 --> 00:23:55.638 observation that in my previous life, 383 00:23:55.804 --> 00:23:59.370 I didn't do that. I was so focused on 384 00:23:59.520 --> 00:24:02.170 being the head of the family, earning income, 385 00:24:03.790 --> 00:24:07.126 delivering my job, hunter killer 386 00:24:07.238 --> 00:24:10.730 protectionist type role, showing no weakness 387 00:24:11.710 --> 00:24:15.406 and being there a 100% 24 x seven to make sure I was 388 00:24:15.428 --> 00:24:19.006 delivering what I could at work, living what I could for the family. And then 389 00:24:19.028 --> 00:24:22.814 I realised that there was no fulfilment in that, it was just an empty 390 00:24:22.862 --> 00:24:26.146 life. I wasn't living to live, I was living to 391 00:24:26.168 --> 00:24:28.900 work, and I was working to live. 392 00:24:30.310 --> 00:24:34.050 As a result of my change, I rebalanced my entire 393 00:24:34.120 --> 00:24:37.846 life that actually, I want to live my life, I want to live my 394 00:24:37.868 --> 00:24:41.654 life, I want to enjoy my downtime and I want to enjoy what I 395 00:24:41.692 --> 00:24:45.526 do. And I was thinking about I was 396 00:24:45.548 --> 00:24:49.030 out shopping in the local tesco's at the weekend with my wife 397 00:24:49.690 --> 00:24:53.034 and I remember we filled our trolley up and we got such a cashier and 398 00:24:53.072 --> 00:24:56.762 I remember there's been times in my life where I dreaded having to pay 399 00:24:56.816 --> 00:25:00.442 the bill, thinking, Will this card work? Have I got enough 400 00:25:00.496 --> 00:25:03.550 money? Can we pay the rent? Can we pay the mortgage? Can we do this? 401 00:25:03.700 --> 00:25:07.518