WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.410 --> 00:00:04.170 Hello, everybody. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am the host 2 00:00:04.250 --> 00:00:07.646 for Inclusion Bites Podcast. In this series, I will be 3 00:00:07.668 --> 00:00:11.402 interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having conversations 4 00:00:11.466 --> 00:00:15.246 around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the 5 00:00:15.268 --> 00:00:19.018 world a better place for everyone to thrive in. If you'd like to join 6 00:00:19.034 --> 00:00:22.206 me in future, then please do drop me a line to Jo Lockwood at 7 00:00:22.228 --> 00:00:26.038 seechangehappen co UK. You'll be to catch up with all of 8 00:00:26.044 --> 00:00:29.634 the shows on itunes, Spotify and of course, all the usual 9 00:00:29.682 --> 00:00:32.998 places. So please plug in your headphones, grab a 10 00:00:33.004 --> 00:00:36.646 decaf and let's get going. Today 11 00:00:36.828 --> 00:00:40.646 is episode four with the title of how good humour 12 00:00:40.758 --> 00:00:44.586 can be used to nurture inclusive cultures. And I have 13 00:00:44.608 --> 00:00:48.166 the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Jeremy. 14 00:00:48.198 --> 00:00:51.674 Nicholas and I first met Jeremy at a Speaking Association 15 00:00:51.722 --> 00:00:55.566 conference in 2018 and we also shared a weekend in 16 00:00:55.588 --> 00:00:59.406 Edinburgh at a professional speaker weekend there. Jeremy is 17 00:00:59.428 --> 00:01:03.246 a keynote speaker on Communication in Business, specialising 18 00:01:03.278 --> 00:01:06.994 in adding humour to presentations. So I asked 19 00:01:07.032 --> 00:01:10.580 Jeremy to describe his superpower and he said 20 00:01:11.270 --> 00:01:14.542 finding the funny in everything, getting serious 21 00:01:14.606 --> 00:01:18.422 laughs in serious talks. Hello, Jeremy, welcome 22 00:01:18.476 --> 00:01:21.926 to the show. So how can good humour be used to 23 00:01:21.948 --> 00:01:25.798 nurture inclusive cultures? Hi, Jo. Yeah, well, I 24 00:01:25.804 --> 00:01:29.618 think humour is important because people bond 25 00:01:29.794 --> 00:01:33.434 when you have a laugh together. People that laugh together tend to 26 00:01:33.472 --> 00:01:36.860 stay together. And so I think any kind of 27 00:01:37.230 --> 00:01:40.986 humour that you can put into a situation, it will 28 00:01:41.008 --> 00:01:44.378 make people like you, but that's not why you're doing it. You'll then like people 29 00:01:44.464 --> 00:01:48.014 that are funny. So I just think it's just that little bit it's like putting 30 00:01:48.052 --> 00:01:51.534 a bit of sugar in your tea. It's just a little bit nicer. Although, actually, 31 00:01:51.572 --> 00:01:54.180 that's a bad example because I don't put sugar in my tea. 32 00:01:55.830 --> 00:01:59.362 So it's a very human cup of tea. Do you think it's a very human 33 00:01:59.416 --> 00:02:02.738 thing to have humour? I think so, 34 00:02:02.824 --> 00:02:06.674 yeah. I think you see apes messing around as well, and 35 00:02:06.712 --> 00:02:10.534 dogs have a bit of a laugh, but none of them use humour with 36 00:02:10.572 --> 00:02:14.040 words because they can't talk. Well, they can, but we don't know what they're saying. 37 00:02:14.410 --> 00:02:17.846 I've never laughed at a dog. I've never enjoyed their 38 00:02:17.868 --> 00:02:21.194 material very much. Yeah, no, I think it's a very human 39 00:02:21.232 --> 00:02:24.874 thing. It's in our sort of 40 00:02:24.912 --> 00:02:28.666 needs that we have, but people always rank it very low down, they 41 00:02:28.688 --> 00:02:32.426 always go for security and warmth and friendship and things. But I 42 00:02:32.448 --> 00:02:36.222 think humour is something that everything's just better. It's like 43 00:02:36.276 --> 00:02:39.886 seeing the world in colour. If it's funny, it's in colour, otherwise it's just in 44 00:02:39.908 --> 00:02:43.394 black and white. Do you find that some people try to 45 00:02:43.432 --> 00:02:47.134 mask their personality by downplaying 46 00:02:47.182 --> 00:02:50.926 the lighter side of them? And when we talk about some people never growing 47 00:02:50.958 --> 00:02:54.642 up or being a kid, where some people 48 00:02:54.776 --> 00:02:58.058 portray this very stiff, very rigid outer 49 00:02:58.094 --> 00:03:01.334 frame, do you think some people find it very difficult to let 50 00:03:01.372 --> 00:03:04.742 go. Yeah, I think they do. I think 51 00:03:04.796 --> 00:03:08.554 sometimes you think people look like they've still got the coat hanger in 52 00:03:08.592 --> 00:03:12.250 their jacket, so their shoulders like that, I think just 53 00:03:12.320 --> 00:03:14.620 calm and relax. And that's why 54 00:03:16.110 --> 00:03:19.498 it's so much better if people can have face to face 55 00:03:19.584 --> 00:03:23.130 meetings. And you could have a business 56 00:03:23.200 --> 00:03:26.974 meeting with someone once a month for five years and never really get much 57 00:03:27.012 --> 00:03:30.346 beyond a certain stage. But you could have a retreat with them at a weekend, 58 00:03:30.458 --> 00:03:33.954 where you could then have a drink in the evening and chat and relax, and 59 00:03:33.992 --> 00:03:37.566 people start telling stories. And that's what we've done for years. We've 60 00:03:37.598 --> 00:03:41.438 sat around campfires, told stories and perhaps 61 00:03:41.534 --> 00:03:44.942 shared an alcoholic beverage, and that just relaxes 62 00:03:45.006 --> 00:03:48.786 people. And you then feel like, oh, yeah, 63 00:03:48.808 --> 00:03:51.266 they're the person I had that laugh with. Like you said, we had the weekend 64 00:03:51.298 --> 00:03:54.966 in Edinburgh with the professional speaking people. It was a Burns supper event 65 00:03:55.068 --> 00:03:58.406 and we had a tour of the castle and it was fantastic weekend. And 66 00:03:58.428 --> 00:04:02.154 then when I then see people from that weekend at other 67 00:04:02.192 --> 00:04:05.686 professional speaking events, I feel like I know them better than others that I've known 68 00:04:05.718 --> 00:04:09.562 longer, that I've only ever seen at an event, perhaps an evening event 69 00:04:09.616 --> 00:04:13.386 once a month for a few years. Yeah. Walking around a windy 70 00:04:13.418 --> 00:04:16.734 Glasgow up to the castle and standing there in that big square and taking 71 00:04:16.772 --> 00:04:20.430 photographs and having other people take photographs of them. Rightly. 72 00:04:22.290 --> 00:04:26.026 You say windy Glasgow, but it was Edinburgh. Edinburgh. 73 00:04:26.058 --> 00:04:29.826 That's where Edinburgh Castle is. The way I remember it. The way 74 00:04:29.848 --> 00:04:33.458 I remember where Edinburgh Castle is. It's in the title. So that's how just a 75 00:04:33.464 --> 00:04:36.854 little numeric you might want to use. So it's near Glasgow, but not in 76 00:04:36.892 --> 00:04:40.294 Glasgow. Yeah. Never ever get Edinburgh and 77 00:04:40.332 --> 00:04:44.086 Glasgow confused. People from 78 00:04:44.108 --> 00:04:47.240 Glasgow will tell you the trouble with Edinburgh is it's full of English people, 79 00:04:47.690 --> 00:04:51.066 and Edinburgh people are too polite to say what they think of 80 00:04:51.088 --> 00:04:54.534 Glasgow. But as a comedian, particularly an English 81 00:04:54.582 --> 00:04:58.026 comedian, it's much harder to go down well in 82 00:04:58.048 --> 00:04:59.420 Glasgow than it is in 83 00:05:01.470 --> 00:05:05.182 know there are certain places so I know there are places in the country 84 00:05:05.316 --> 00:05:08.414 where I go down very well, and there's places I don't go down very well. 85 00:05:08.452 --> 00:05:11.838 Liverpool. No, I'm not funny in 86 00:05:11.844 --> 00:05:15.106 Liverpool. I'm funny in Manchester, which is not very far away, so I don't know 87 00:05:15.128 --> 00:05:18.674 why, but I'm not funny in Yorkshire. I'm very 88 00:05:18.712 --> 00:05:22.386 funny up about as far up the M one to 89 00:05:22.408 --> 00:05:26.178 about redford north Nottinghamshire. Well, redford is on the 90 00:05:26.184 --> 00:05:29.446 A one. And then I lose my 91 00:05:29.468 --> 00:05:33.158 superpowers Rotherham Sheffield, all the way up Leeds. I'm not 92 00:05:33.164 --> 00:05:36.966 funny. Not funny. And then I start getting funny again about Middlesbrough, and then 93 00:05:36.988 --> 00:05:40.758 I'm funny all the way up to Scotland and Edinburgh. I'm very funny, but I 94 00:05:40.764 --> 00:05:44.266 go across to Glasgow. Not funny at all. Okay, so 95 00:05:44.368 --> 00:05:48.022 that's like localization of what's funny and humour 96 00:05:48.086 --> 00:05:51.820 and accent, is it some accents they find funny, some accents they find 97 00:05:52.670 --> 00:05:56.446 elitist, maybe, I don't know. I think a lot of 98 00:05:56.468 --> 00:05:59.594 it would just be things that people laugh at and I think people in Liverpool 99 00:05:59.642 --> 00:06:02.030 laugh at different things to people in Manchester laugh 100 00:06:04.130 --> 00:06:07.538 know, I go down very well in London because I live in London and I 101 00:06:07.544 --> 00:06:11.282 grew up in London and other 102 00:06:11.336 --> 00:06:14.626 places. I think it's just if you're seen as a bit of an 103 00:06:14.648 --> 00:06:18.294 outsider so somewhere like Cornwall, that has very much its 104 00:06:18.332 --> 00:06:21.942 own identity and know you come down here with your fancy ways, 105 00:06:22.076 --> 00:06:25.446 then you might struggle and that's in their 106 00:06:25.468 --> 00:06:29.174 mind. I went to university in the north and I never got much 107 00:06:29.212 --> 00:06:31.080 beyond. You're not from around here, are 108 00:06:33.450 --> 00:06:37.158 know, eventually with friends, they forget that you're 109 00:06:37.174 --> 00:06:39.706 from a different part, but for an audience, when there's a lot of them en 110 00:06:39.728 --> 00:06:43.486 masse, you can seem like a bit of an outsider. So the way to then 111 00:06:43.508 --> 00:06:46.320 break that down is always make yourself the butt of the 112 00:06:47.010 --> 00:06:50.814 so and then people will 113 00:06:50.852 --> 00:06:54.062 warm to you. But I couldn't go to Glasgow and start having a go 114 00:06:54.116 --> 00:06:57.879 at in Glasgow you do this. I can't believe, you know, that's not going to 115 00:06:57.879 --> 00:07:01.678 go down well, but if I start saying it's lovely, here what you do, isn't 116 00:07:01.694 --> 00:07:04.834 it? In London we do this and then they'll oh yeah, they'll laugh at that. 117 00:07:04.872 --> 00:07:08.200 London, right, okay, so you have to create the other group. 118 00:07:10.170 --> 00:07:13.718 Often when we talk about inclusive cultures, we end up using 119 00:07:13.804 --> 00:07:17.560 comedy or banter to create another group 120 00:07:18.170 --> 00:07:21.946 and quite often you can find yourself being on the in group 121 00:07:22.128 --> 00:07:25.706 and using humour against the other, whereas what you're suggesting there 122 00:07:25.728 --> 00:07:29.530 is be the other and use your otherness 123 00:07:30.350 --> 00:07:34.142 to bring you into the in group if you like. Whereas banter is often 124 00:07:34.196 --> 00:07:37.760 about creating an other and then taking the mickey out of it. 125 00:07:38.210 --> 00:07:42.058 Yes. So my rule on that is that I don't 126 00:07:42.074 --> 00:07:44.990 ever want anyone in the room to feel threatened. 127 00:07:46.290 --> 00:07:49.554 I don't like any sort of cruel humour. So you'll see a lot of stand 128 00:07:49.592 --> 00:07:52.994 up comedians that are very cruel in their humour and they're laughing at a very 129 00:07:53.032 --> 00:07:56.020 specific group. I don't like to do that and 130 00:07:56.630 --> 00:08:00.434 the only specific group I laugh at would be a group that I might belong 131 00:08:00.482 --> 00:08:04.214 to. So it might be Londoners or it might be men 132 00:08:04.252 --> 00:08:07.938 with bald heads or it might be glasses wearers and all things. It's 133 00:08:07.954 --> 00:08:11.674 clear that I'm making a joke about myself and 134 00:08:11.712 --> 00:08:15.066 I think that's really important not to have any 135 00:08:15.168 --> 00:08:18.794 cruelty. And the thing is, you can do the same stuff in different places and 136 00:08:18.832 --> 00:08:22.654 some people will regard it as funny and others will regard 137 00:08:22.692 --> 00:08:26.190 it as oh, we shouldn't say that. So, for example, Jimmy Carr 138 00:08:27.490 --> 00:08:30.798 did a story about he was working with 139 00:08:30.884 --> 00:08:34.698 injured soldiers from Afghanistan 140 00:08:34.794 --> 00:08:37.646 and the Gulf conflict, and he was working with them, and a lot of them 141 00:08:37.668 --> 00:08:41.358 had lost limbs, and there was a sort of a charity day, 142 00:08:41.444 --> 00:08:45.238 bonding day, and he went in and did a free gig for them and but 143 00:08:45.244 --> 00:08:48.274 he'd spent the whole day working with them and chatting with them and having pictures 144 00:08:48.322 --> 00:08:51.846 taken, and they thought he was great. So when he came on and did a 145 00:08:51.868 --> 00:08:54.486 show especially for them, and he said, say what you like about the war in 146 00:08:54.508 --> 00:08:58.246 Afghanistan, we're going to have a great team for the Paralympics, they 147 00:08:58.268 --> 00:09:01.894 all laughed because they knew that he had judged that that would be all right, 148 00:09:01.932 --> 00:09:04.778 because that was the sort of thing that they'd all been saying to him. And 149 00:09:04.784 --> 00:09:07.978 they'd had banter amongst themselves. So he knew that was fine. 150 00:09:08.144 --> 00:09:11.594 Encouraged by that, he then put it in his set the next night in 151 00:09:11.632 --> 00:09:15.422 Manchester to a theatre audience, and people booed him. 152 00:09:15.556 --> 00:09:19.326 And the difference was, the soldiers in the audience and their families all 153 00:09:19.348 --> 00:09:23.198 knew that he had done so much to help and that that's the sort of 154 00:09:23.204 --> 00:09:26.250 thing they would say. And he knew he wasn't having a go at them, he 155 00:09:26.260 --> 00:09:30.018 was laughing with them, whereas in Manchester it looked like he 156 00:09:30.024 --> 00:09:33.746 was picking on soldiers that lost limbs. And so that was very different. And 157 00:09:33.848 --> 00:09:37.606 he's spoken about that and he doesn't do that now. So 158 00:09:37.788 --> 00:09:41.606 it's just the difference between looking like you're having a go at 159 00:09:41.628 --> 00:09:45.254 people and looking like you're laughing with people. Are you laughing with 160 00:09:45.292 --> 00:09:48.886 or at? Yes. When I talk about 161 00:09:48.988 --> 00:09:52.746 DNI World, it's understanding your intent and then 162 00:09:52.768 --> 00:09:56.598 the impact. I didn't intend to cause offence, but in this scenario, 163 00:09:56.694 --> 00:09:59.420 in this context, offence was taken 164 00:10:00.130 --> 00:10:03.738 because the context was different. Humour. 165 00:10:03.834 --> 00:10:07.600 You got to understand the context of the humour, haven't you? Yeah. 166 00:10:08.210 --> 00:10:11.934 The trouble with analysing humour too much is that inevitably you 167 00:10:11.972 --> 00:10:15.806 kill it's like dissecting a frog. You find out how the frog works, but 168 00:10:15.828 --> 00:10:18.930 the frog dies. And that's the thing with comedy, you look at it too much, 169 00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:22.482 it's like, yes, okay, we've got a bit serious about that. But, 170 00:10:22.536 --> 00:10:26.306 yeah, you are right. I suppose as a comedian, you 171 00:10:26.328 --> 00:10:29.990 probably learn that you can't be funny to all people every time, 172 00:10:30.060 --> 00:10:33.606 everywhere, and you just have to roll with that and just pick yourself up and 173 00:10:33.628 --> 00:10:37.254 carry on. Yes. So I 174 00:10:37.292 --> 00:10:40.954 did last year at the Edinburgh Fringe, I did 27 shows on 175 00:10:40.992 --> 00:10:44.746 27 days in a row and I was happy with 23 of 176 00:10:44.768 --> 00:10:47.738 them. And there were four that I wasn't happy with. 177 00:10:47.904 --> 00:10:51.754 But of those four gigs, people came 178 00:10:51.792 --> 00:10:53.786 up to me at the end and said, I like that. That's the best show 179 00:10:53.808 --> 00:10:57.178 I've seen since I've been at the Fringe. And I'd say, when did you arrive? 180 00:10:57.194 --> 00:11:00.938 And they said, about an hour ago. Just a joke I've 181 00:11:00.954 --> 00:11:03.280 thrown in. That didn't happen. It just occurred to me now, 182 00:11:04.450 --> 00:11:08.138 but the point being the four that I wasn't happy 183 00:11:08.164 --> 00:11:11.074 with, it's often because there were people sitting there folding their arms or there was 184 00:11:11.112 --> 00:11:14.866 just a person with a grumpy face in the front row. And that is 185 00:11:14.888 --> 00:11:18.706 the thing with a fringe venue, the way a 186 00:11:18.728 --> 00:11:22.406 comedy gig is set up, the light's very bright on the stage, the audience is 187 00:11:22.428 --> 00:11:26.194 in darkness, so you can perhaps only see the front two rows. And if there's 188 00:11:26.242 --> 00:11:29.174 one person in the front two rows who has their arm folded, it looks like 189 00:11:29.212 --> 00:11:32.726 maybe their partner dragged them along and it's not really their sort of thing and 190 00:11:32.748 --> 00:11:36.378 they'd much rather have gone somewhere else. You've just got to 191 00:11:36.464 --> 00:11:38.586 zone them out of your head, because if you look at them, you think, this 192 00:11:38.608 --> 00:11:42.270 is going really badly. And most comedians have a bit of an insecurity 193 00:11:42.770 --> 00:11:45.390 that, oh, I'm not funny anymore. 194 00:11:47.730 --> 00:11:51.486 And you've just got to rely on the fact that every night you've done 195 00:11:51.508 --> 00:11:54.638 this material, when you've been practising, when you did your previous shows, and when you 196 00:11:54.644 --> 00:11:57.694 did it at the event, it got a laugh, so it probably is still funny. 197 00:11:57.742 --> 00:12:01.486 So never mind that bloke with a grumpy face in the front row, just ignore 198 00:12:01.518 --> 00:12:05.038 them from those four gigs. I got other referrals 199 00:12:05.134 --> 00:12:08.740 from people because they said, no, that was really good, but 200 00:12:09.670 --> 00:12:13.058 I had times when I thought I might need to just run off this stage 201 00:12:13.074 --> 00:12:16.854 and run out into the road screaming because it's going so badly. But it never 202 00:12:16.892 --> 00:12:20.518 was. It never was. But most people who do humorous stuff have a little bit 203 00:12:20.524 --> 00:12:24.326 of an insecurity about, oh, my goodness, is this funny anymore? Especially if you've 204 00:12:24.358 --> 00:12:27.834 done stuff before and so you've got used to it. 205 00:12:28.032 --> 00:12:31.402 The things that make me laugh the most are unexpected things. 206 00:12:31.536 --> 00:12:34.918 So if I've done a show four times in a row, I think, well, fed 207 00:12:34.934 --> 00:12:38.654 up with this now. And the tendency then is to start chucking in 208 00:12:38.692 --> 00:12:42.506 new stuff that's just occurring to you like I did about that person. I've 209 00:12:42.538 --> 00:12:46.366 just got here an hour ago, which is mildly amusing, but 210 00:12:46.388 --> 00:12:50.066 I don't think I'll ever say that ever again in my life. The danger is 211 00:12:50.168 --> 00:12:53.986 you get some people who start then riffing and doing stuff that 212 00:12:54.008 --> 00:12:57.726 they're thinking of sort of stream of consciousness type stuff, and 213 00:12:57.768 --> 00:13:01.558 that's when the danger is, because then you haven't filtered it. The stuff that 214 00:13:01.564 --> 00:13:04.840 you've written, you've checked, is there anything offensive in it? 215 00:13:05.370 --> 00:13:08.918 It's when people start ad libbing that their true 216 00:13:09.004 --> 00:13:12.806 personality might come out and they might say it's something racist or sexist 217 00:13:12.838 --> 00:13:16.106 or homophobic if they have that in them. Now, I don't have that in me, 218 00:13:16.128 --> 00:13:19.580 so I'm unlikely to do that, but I might go too far 219 00:13:20.910 --> 00:13:24.014 just on a particular point. I might be not 220 00:13:24.132 --> 00:13:27.982 offensive, but I might just go a little bit too far with something 221 00:13:28.036 --> 00:13:30.720 you think probably best not to do that again. Yeah, 222 00:13:33.490 --> 00:13:36.990 what you may have done is inadvertently just use language 223 00:13:37.150 --> 00:13:40.770 that wasn't good language. You wouldn't necessarily be 224 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:44.194 offensive, but the language in the context of the way you use that language, someone 225 00:13:44.232 --> 00:13:47.998 might have detected some sort of element of racism. I think 226 00:13:48.104 --> 00:13:51.318 you see it politicians all the time. Instead of referring to a person of colour, 227 00:13:51.404 --> 00:13:54.934 they talked about a coloured person. That's because their 228 00:13:54.972 --> 00:13:58.726 skill about how to describe somebody and the use of 229 00:13:58.748 --> 00:14:02.250 adjectives isn't quite right. So, as you say, when they go off 230 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:05.770 piece and wing it, they can sometimes 231 00:14:05.920 --> 00:14:09.226 their inner brain kicks in and then they lose the context or 232 00:14:09.408 --> 00:14:13.002 sentence that they haven't thought about. And, yeah, I guess 233 00:14:13.056 --> 00:14:16.558 comedy, it's even more risky to go off 234 00:14:16.644 --> 00:14:20.366 script, because then how do you get yourself back in again, then? That must 235 00:14:20.388 --> 00:14:24.066 be quite tricky, but I know what you 236 00:14:24.088 --> 00:14:26.740 mean about yeah, I. Really like the. 237 00:14:29.510 --> 00:14:33.138 Carry on. Sorry, I was just going to say I really like 238 00:14:33.224 --> 00:14:37.058 the Claire in the Community sitcom on Radio Four. I 239 00:14:37.064 --> 00:14:39.506 don't know if you know, I've. Not heard that one. Claire is a social worker, 240 00:14:39.538 --> 00:14:43.078 played by she's a social worker, played by Sally Phillips. It's based on a 241 00:14:43.164 --> 00:14:46.694 long running comic strip in The Guardian, and she's a social worker, so 242 00:14:46.732 --> 00:14:50.138 she tries all the time to use the correct 243 00:14:50.224 --> 00:14:53.834 language and be very PC, but occasionally she'll start 244 00:14:53.872 --> 00:14:57.706 censoring herself when there's no need to. So they 245 00:14:57.728 --> 00:15:01.354 have a meeting and they're talking all about in one of the episodes, they're talking 246 00:15:01.392 --> 00:15:04.762 about humour. And she says, yes, we can't have any black humour, 247 00:15:04.906 --> 00:15:08.542 dark humour. She just immediately corrects herself on that, 248 00:15:08.596 --> 00:15:11.998 as though anyone would have any sort of problem with that. 249 00:15:12.084 --> 00:15:15.470 But, yeah, people do tie themselves in circles. 250 00:15:16.050 --> 00:15:19.806 Yeah, I know what you're saying. Also, when you're on stage, you're delivering 251 00:15:19.918 --> 00:15:23.278 either as a professional speaker, as a comedian, I've done a few stand up gigs 252 00:15:23.374 --> 00:15:27.014 and I know if you've got the wrong audience or the 253 00:15:27.052 --> 00:15:30.886 audience that's not quite in the right eyeline, you've got one person, as you say, 254 00:15:31.068 --> 00:15:34.614 is looking, playing with their phone, arms crossed, not 255 00:15:34.652 --> 00:15:38.502 interested. That can almost your brain just locks onto that negativity sometimes, 256 00:15:38.556 --> 00:15:42.214 isn't it? And I often find when I talk on stage, if I just need 257 00:15:42.252 --> 00:15:45.946 one person to smile at me in the first couple of sentences and 258 00:15:45.968 --> 00:15:49.206 I've got them, and that's the person I can work with. I can then blank 259 00:15:49.238 --> 00:15:52.986 everybody else out. But, yeah, I do a little stand up routine, which 260 00:15:53.008 --> 00:15:56.814 I've done a few times now, and I delivered it the other day. And the 261 00:15:56.852 --> 00:16:00.334 audience, it's like a square audience, so I had nobody in front of me, everyone 262 00:16:00.372 --> 00:16:03.786 was in the periphery and there was no one I could focus on. I couldn't 263 00:16:03.818 --> 00:16:07.018 hear the laughter. And that's a really tricky thing to sort of pick up on, 264 00:16:07.044 --> 00:16:10.786 isn't it? And as you said, you start to 265 00:16:10.808 --> 00:16:13.938 doubt yourself how funny you are. You think, that should have got a laugh and 266 00:16:13.944 --> 00:16:17.746 it got a titter. It didn't get a belly laugh. And it's a really tricky 267 00:16:17.778 --> 00:16:21.618 thing. Without wanting 268 00:16:21.634 --> 00:16:24.840 to date this podcast too much. We're now, in this sort of like, world 269 00:16:25.210 --> 00:16:28.662 pandemic situation. We hear these words 270 00:16:28.716 --> 00:16:31.820 unprecedented, and I think we hear about 15 times a day. 271 00:16:32.270 --> 00:16:35.594 And I think by now it's kind of the norm. I think we can move 272 00:16:35.632 --> 00:16:39.434 past unprecedented now. So how can we, as 273 00:16:39.472 --> 00:16:42.974 humans, keep our 274 00:16:43.012 --> 00:16:46.638 smiles up? The British have this spirit of 275 00:16:46.804 --> 00:16:50.638 soldiering on stiff upper lip. But how can we now come together as a 276 00:16:50.644 --> 00:16:54.430 country and laugh about stuff? Yes, 277 00:16:54.500 --> 00:16:58.126 so people have different approaches. One thing that a lot of people send to me 278 00:16:58.148 --> 00:17:01.920 are lots of little internet memes, little funny images or videos. 279 00:17:02.370 --> 00:17:06.086 And to be honest, if I'm working and they start flying in, I 280 00:17:06.108 --> 00:17:09.286 just switch my notifications off because I think, no, hang on, I'm busy, and do 281 00:17:09.308 --> 00:17:12.358 that. But then I'll settle down the evening and then I'll see them coming in. 282 00:17:12.444 --> 00:17:15.110 Someone sent me one the other day and it was a picture of the Last 283 00:17:15.180 --> 00:17:18.966 Supper, as though it was a Zoom call. They'd taken all 284 00:17:18.988 --> 00:17:22.242 the people, so you've got Jesus in the middle with nobody else on the table. 285 00:17:22.306 --> 00:17:25.750 And then all of the disciples have been put into little zoom windows. 286 00:17:25.830 --> 00:17:29.226 And that was a funny image. And I felt like, yeah, because that's how I 287 00:17:29.328 --> 00:17:32.410 spend my life now, talking to people on zoom. 288 00:17:33.570 --> 00:17:37.374 I just think, just pick up the phone to people that always make you 289 00:17:37.412 --> 00:17:40.974 laugh, that you always tell good stories with and just have 290 00:17:41.092 --> 00:17:44.370 a really good rant about all the things that are annoying you, 291 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:47.730 because it's a great way to release 292 00:17:48.230 --> 00:17:51.170 some tension and a lot of comedy 293 00:17:52.230 --> 00:17:55.366 just to release a tension. You build up that pressure, build it up, build it 294 00:17:55.388 --> 00:17:58.662 up, and then the laughter is the pressure being 295 00:17:58.716 --> 00:18:02.006 released. And so we call it truth and 296 00:18:02.028 --> 00:18:05.094 pain, where you just moan about stuff 297 00:18:05.212 --> 00:18:07.800 and the other 298 00:18:08.730 --> 00:18:11.986 that's something that annoys them. Then you'll have a shared bond and you can laugh 299 00:18:12.018 --> 00:18:15.818 at it. And you can make your problems smaller by laughing at it. No 300 00:18:15.824 --> 00:18:18.986 matter how big something seems, if you laugh at it, what a great weapon that 301 00:18:19.008 --> 00:18:22.586 is. It just brings it down to size. So that's called truth and 302 00:18:22.608 --> 00:18:26.346 pain. And if you think about a comedian or a professional 303 00:18:26.378 --> 00:18:29.486 speaker, when they come on, they don't ever start by saying, I'll tell you what 304 00:18:29.508 --> 00:18:33.354 I really like. And if they told you all the stuff they liked 305 00:18:33.402 --> 00:18:36.746 and that they're happy with, that's not funny. But if they go, oh, it drives 306 00:18:36.778 --> 00:18:40.370 me mad when so Billy Connolly would be the best at 307 00:18:40.520 --> 00:18:43.826 know when the person in front of you plays with a cheque or you pick 308 00:18:43.848 --> 00:18:47.380 the wrong queue at the post office. Yeah, 309 00:18:48.570 --> 00:18:51.560 Ulster is going to the days when we were allowed outside, of course, 310 00:18:52.650 --> 00:18:56.440 but it's that common shared thing. So 311 00:18:57.850 --> 00:19:01.234 I have a programme called Talking Funny for Speakers, 312 00:19:01.282 --> 00:19:05.094 where I give them exercises to do on 313 00:19:05.132 --> 00:19:08.854 how to make their talks funnier. And week one, the exercise is write 314 00:19:08.892 --> 00:19:12.350 down all the things that annoy you, and then in the group, we all share 315 00:19:12.420 --> 00:19:15.534 all the things that annoy us. And then you think, right, what is funny about 316 00:19:15.572 --> 00:19:18.446 that? And then what else is funny about that? And what would be even more? 317 00:19:18.468 --> 00:19:21.246 And it'll go to like, four stages and what else? And what else? And what 318 00:19:21.268 --> 00:19:24.958 else until you get that little bit of gold that like, yep, that's the line. 319 00:19:25.124 --> 00:19:28.770 That's what really annoys me. Yeah, I like that, 320 00:19:28.840 --> 00:19:32.450 because the routine I do, I think you've heard it, is all around the pain 321 00:19:32.520 --> 00:19:36.306 in my life and the sort of ironic examples of 322 00:19:36.328 --> 00:19:40.054 how just being me in the world. And 323 00:19:40.172 --> 00:19:43.602 people laugh at it because they'd never thought of those things in that context 324 00:19:43.666 --> 00:19:47.366 before. And it allows them to get an insight onto the pain and the 325 00:19:47.388 --> 00:19:51.034 irony that I face every day. If I just said, I'm really happy 326 00:19:51.072 --> 00:19:54.298 walking down the street, there's no humour in that, is there? But, 327 00:19:54.464 --> 00:19:57.180 yeah, if I say I'm walking. Down the street, 328 00:20:01.650 --> 00:20:05.214 what gets the biggest laugh in your routine? What is the line that you think 329 00:20:05.252 --> 00:20:08.894 always that's the killer line. I 330 00:20:08.932 --> 00:20:12.686 talk about the airport scanner and the punchline to that 331 00:20:12.708 --> 00:20:16.546 is unexpected item in the bagging area. And that always gets the 332 00:20:16.568 --> 00:20:20.194 sort of people come up to me afterwards and they're still laughing about that one 333 00:20:20.232 --> 00:20:23.950 bit because it's a common phrase 334 00:20:24.030 --> 00:20:27.726 used in a different context and I don't kind of signpost 335 00:20:27.758 --> 00:20:31.094 it enough and then I land it and it kind of just makes people go, 336 00:20:31.132 --> 00:20:33.958 wow, where did that come from? Yeah, I see what you say. Oh, yeah, I 337 00:20:33.964 --> 00:20:37.526 get it now. And it's a way of being crude without being 338 00:20:37.548 --> 00:20:41.318 crude, isn't it, as well? And I think when you have a 339 00:20:41.324 --> 00:20:44.954 good line like that, what I always encourage people to do is then say, and 340 00:20:44.992 --> 00:20:48.794 what else could you say about that? What other things would go along with 341 00:20:48.832 --> 00:20:52.666 unexpected item in the baggage area? I actually 342 00:20:52.688 --> 00:20:56.400 now talk about the fact that so women out there, 343 00:20:56.850 --> 00:21:00.506 if you want to smuggle cocaine, make it look like you're trans, it's much easier 344 00:21:00.538 --> 00:21:04.322 to get through customs that way. Very good 345 00:21:04.376 --> 00:21:07.380 line. Yeah, we've got a laugh as well. 346 00:21:10.710 --> 00:21:14.130 Do you find sometimes people kind of mask an 347 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:17.986 underlying mental health problem by using humour? They're using it as a way 348 00:21:18.008 --> 00:21:21.766 of covering their life and how can we stop or 349 00:21:21.788 --> 00:21:24.870 how can we spot that and help people who are just 350 00:21:24.940 --> 00:21:27.350 masking their underlying conditions? 351 00:21:28.990 --> 00:21:32.540 Yes, I think a lot of people that 352 00:21:33.470 --> 00:21:37.306 a lot of professional comedians have over the years have 353 00:21:37.328 --> 00:21:41.114 mental health problems. There's a very high rate of suicide 354 00:21:41.162 --> 00:21:44.986 amongst comedians, and alcoholism and drugs, but then there's an awful 355 00:21:45.018 --> 00:21:48.110 lot that don't have any problems with it at all. 356 00:21:48.260 --> 00:21:51.440 But I think people that 357 00:21:52.390 --> 00:21:56.066 just think a little bit differently are often very good 358 00:21:56.088 --> 00:21:58.450 at making humour. 359 00:22:02.950 --> 00:22:05.780 I don't know how you spot it and I don't really know how you help, 360 00:22:06.230 --> 00:22:08.980 because that's not really my end of things. No, 361 00:22:11.050 --> 00:22:14.038 so, Robin Williams, for example, everyone thought he was the life and soul of the 362 00:22:14.044 --> 00:22:17.654 party and quite clearly had some very underlying mental health 363 00:22:17.692 --> 00:22:21.494 conditions, and everyone thought he was okay, 364 00:22:21.612 --> 00:22:24.586 that was how he was. But I guess he must have gone home at night, 365 00:22:24.768 --> 00:22:27.450 switched off the microphone, switched off the camera 366 00:22:28.830 --> 00:22:32.334 and turned in on himself, maybe. Yeah, because 367 00:22:32.532 --> 00:22:35.946 as a speaker, and I know many speakers, we kind of thrive 368 00:22:36.138 --> 00:22:39.374 on the audience appreciation, don't we? We thrive on 369 00:22:39.572 --> 00:22:43.322 that brain drug that we like to be liked. 370 00:22:43.386 --> 00:22:47.186 And sometimes when you're not in front of the camera, not without an 371 00:22:47.208 --> 00:22:51.042 audience, the vacuum appears, isn't it? And you're then living on your own 372 00:22:51.096 --> 00:22:54.866 with yourself again and no one to find you. So I 373 00:22:54.888 --> 00:22:58.326 think my thing is that it's important 374 00:22:58.428 --> 00:23:02.114 not to care too much whether they laugh or not, because if you're 375 00:23:02.162 --> 00:23:05.506 really craving that laughter like it's heroin, 376 00:23:05.618 --> 00:23:09.098 then on the days when you haven't got a show, you're going to 377 00:23:09.104 --> 00:23:12.746 struggle. So I think just think of 378 00:23:12.768 --> 00:23:16.582 it, it's nice if they smile. 379 00:23:16.646 --> 00:23:20.042 If they laugh, it's better. But if they don't do anything, they've still 380 00:23:20.096 --> 00:23:23.806 had the story that you're telling. That's my big thing. It's always got to 381 00:23:23.828 --> 00:23:27.594 be I don't ever think of myself as a comedian, 382 00:23:27.642 --> 00:23:31.310 I think of myself as a storyteller with some kind of a learning 383 00:23:31.380 --> 00:23:34.990 message. So they're getting the learning, they're hearing the story, 384 00:23:35.060 --> 00:23:38.514 and then instantly, if they laugh as well, that's a bonus. And usually they do, 385 00:23:38.552 --> 00:23:40.818 but I wouldn't ever want to go out and just do did you hear the 386 00:23:40.824 --> 00:23:44.606 one about because to me, there's no point. I don't crave 387 00:23:44.638 --> 00:23:48.454 the laughter enough for that, and I'm not funny enough either for 388 00:23:48.492 --> 00:23:51.714 that, because all of my background is I was a BBC 389 00:23:51.762 --> 00:23:55.126 broadcaster journalist for years, so it's always been about the 390 00:23:55.148 --> 00:23:58.678 content. And the humour for me is only ever the icing on the 391 00:23:58.684 --> 00:24:02.026 cake. It's not the actual cake itself, it's just a little bit of 392 00:24:02.128 --> 00:24:05.914 sprinkle of sugar to help that medicine go down. Good 393 00:24:05.952 --> 00:24:09.354 point. I've seen you MC some 394 00:24:09.392 --> 00:24:13.014 events, and I think you're a fantastic MC, and I know you even coach 395 00:24:13.062 --> 00:24:16.894 MCs for events as well. So how important it is? Is 396 00:24:16.932 --> 00:24:20.590 it to have a great MC or someone facilitating? Because some content 397 00:24:20.660 --> 00:24:24.446 in some conference could be quite straight laced or do need 398 00:24:24.468 --> 00:24:28.020 this icebreaker. So how do you see your role in that situation? 399 00:24:29.670 --> 00:24:32.338 Yeah, so I see the role of the MC to set the tone for the 400 00:24:32.344 --> 00:24:35.922 event, to answer any questions that the audience might 401 00:24:35.976 --> 00:24:39.194