Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everybody. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am the host
Joanne Lockwood: for Inclusion Bites Podcast. In this series, I will be
Joanne Lockwood: interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having conversations
Joanne Lockwood: around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the
Joanne Lockwood: world a better place for everyone to thrive in. If you'd like to join
Joanne Lockwood: me in future, then please do drop me a line to Jo Lockwood at
Joanne Lockwood: seechangehappen co UK. You'll be to catch up with all of
Joanne Lockwood: the shows on itunes, Spotify and of course, all the usual
Joanne Lockwood: places. So please plug in your headphones, grab a
Joanne Lockwood: decaf and let's get going. Today
Joanne Lockwood: is episode four with the title of how good humour
Joanne Lockwood: can be used to nurture inclusive cultures. And I have
Joanne Lockwood: the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Jeremy.
Joanne Lockwood: Nicholas and I first met Jeremy at a Speaking Association
Joanne Lockwood: conference in 2018 and we also shared a weekend in
Joanne Lockwood: Edinburgh at a professional speaker weekend there. Jeremy is
Joanne Lockwood: a keynote speaker on Communication in Business, specialising
Joanne Lockwood: in adding humour to presentations. So I asked
Joanne Lockwood: Jeremy to describe his superpower and he said
Joanne Lockwood: finding the funny in everything, getting serious
Joanne Lockwood: laughs in serious talks. Hello, Jeremy, welcome
Joanne Lockwood: to the show. So how can good humour be used to
Joanne Lockwood: nurture inclusive cultures? Hi, Jo. Yeah, well, I
Jeremy Nicholas: think humour is important because people bond
Jeremy Nicholas: when you have a laugh together. People that laugh together tend to
Jeremy Nicholas: stay together. And so I think any kind of
Jeremy Nicholas: humour that you can put into a situation, it will
Jeremy Nicholas: make people like you, but that's not why you're doing it. You'll then like people
Jeremy Nicholas: that are funny. So I just think it's just that little bit it's like putting
Jeremy Nicholas: a bit of sugar in your tea. It's just a little bit nicer. Although, actually,
Jeremy Nicholas: that's a bad example because I don't put sugar in my tea.
Joanne Lockwood: So it's a very human cup of tea. Do you think it's a very human
Joanne Lockwood: thing to have humour? I think so,
Jeremy Nicholas: yeah. I think you see apes messing around as well, and
Jeremy Nicholas: dogs have a bit of a laugh, but none of them use humour with
Jeremy Nicholas: words because they can't talk. Well, they can, but we don't know what they're saying.
Jeremy Nicholas: I've never laughed at a dog. I've never enjoyed their
Jeremy Nicholas: material very much. Yeah, no, I think it's a very human
Jeremy Nicholas: thing. It's in our sort of
Jeremy Nicholas: needs that we have, but people always rank it very low down, they
Jeremy Nicholas: always go for security and warmth and friendship and things. But I
Jeremy Nicholas: think humour is something that everything's just better. It's like
Jeremy Nicholas: seeing the world in colour. If it's funny, it's in colour, otherwise it's just in
Jeremy Nicholas: black and white. Do you find that some people try to
Joanne Lockwood: mask their personality by downplaying
Joanne Lockwood: the lighter side of them? And when we talk about some people never growing
Joanne Lockwood: up or being a kid, where some people
Joanne Lockwood: portray this very stiff, very rigid outer
Joanne Lockwood: frame, do you think some people find it very difficult to let
Joanne Lockwood: go. Yeah, I think they do. I think
Jeremy Nicholas: sometimes you think people look like they've still got the coat hanger in
Jeremy Nicholas: their jacket, so their shoulders like that, I think just
Jeremy Nicholas: calm and relax. And that's why
Jeremy Nicholas: it's so much better if people can have face to face
Jeremy Nicholas: meetings. And you could have a business
Jeremy Nicholas: meeting with someone once a month for five years and never really get much
Jeremy Nicholas: beyond a certain stage. But you could have a retreat with them at a weekend,
Jeremy Nicholas: where you could then have a drink in the evening and chat and relax, and
Jeremy Nicholas: people start telling stories. And that's what we've done for years. We've
Jeremy Nicholas: sat around campfires, told stories and perhaps
Jeremy Nicholas: shared an alcoholic beverage, and that just relaxes
Jeremy Nicholas: people. And you then feel like, oh, yeah,
Jeremy Nicholas: they're the person I had that laugh with. Like you said, we had the weekend
Jeremy Nicholas: in Edinburgh with the professional speaking people. It was a Burns supper event
Jeremy Nicholas: and we had a tour of the castle and it was fantastic weekend. And
Jeremy Nicholas: then when I then see people from that weekend at other
Jeremy Nicholas: professional speaking events, I feel like I know them better than others that I've known
Jeremy Nicholas: longer, that I've only ever seen at an event, perhaps an evening event
Jeremy Nicholas: once a month for a few years. Yeah. Walking around a windy
Joanne Lockwood: Glasgow up to the castle and standing there in that big square and taking
Joanne Lockwood: photographs and having other people take photographs of them. Rightly.
Jeremy Nicholas: You say windy Glasgow, but it was Edinburgh. Edinburgh.
Jeremy Nicholas: That's where Edinburgh Castle is. The way I remember it. The way
Jeremy Nicholas: I remember where Edinburgh Castle is. It's in the title. So that's how just a
Jeremy Nicholas: little numeric you might want to use. So it's near Glasgow, but not in
Joanne Lockwood: Glasgow. Yeah. Never ever get Edinburgh and
Jeremy Nicholas: Glasgow confused. People from
Jeremy Nicholas: Glasgow will tell you the trouble with Edinburgh is it's full of English people,
Jeremy Nicholas: and Edinburgh people are too polite to say what they think of
Jeremy Nicholas: Glasgow. But as a comedian, particularly an English
Jeremy Nicholas: comedian, it's much harder to go down well in
Jeremy Nicholas: Glasgow than it is in
Jeremy Nicholas: know there are certain places so I know there are places in the country
Jeremy Nicholas: where I go down very well, and there's places I don't go down very well.
Jeremy Nicholas: Liverpool. No, I'm not funny in
Jeremy Nicholas: Liverpool. I'm funny in Manchester, which is not very far away, so I don't know
Jeremy Nicholas: why, but I'm not funny in Yorkshire. I'm very
Jeremy Nicholas: funny up about as far up the M one to
Jeremy Nicholas: about redford north Nottinghamshire. Well, redford is on the
Jeremy Nicholas: A one. And then I lose my
Jeremy Nicholas: superpowers Rotherham Sheffield, all the way up Leeds. I'm not
Jeremy Nicholas: funny. Not funny. And then I start getting funny again about Middlesbrough, and then
Jeremy Nicholas: I'm funny all the way up to Scotland and Edinburgh. I'm very funny, but I
Jeremy Nicholas: go across to Glasgow. Not funny at all. Okay, so
Joanne Lockwood: that's like localization of what's funny and humour
Joanne Lockwood: and accent, is it some accents they find funny, some accents they find
Joanne Lockwood: elitist, maybe, I don't know. I think a lot of
Jeremy Nicholas: it would just be things that people laugh at and I think people in Liverpool
Jeremy Nicholas: laugh at different things to people in Manchester laugh
Jeremy Nicholas: know, I go down very well in London because I live in London and I
Jeremy Nicholas: grew up in London and other
Jeremy Nicholas: places. I think it's just if you're seen as a bit of an
Jeremy Nicholas: outsider so somewhere like Cornwall, that has very much its
Jeremy Nicholas: own identity and know you come down here with your fancy ways,
Jeremy Nicholas: then you might struggle and that's in their
Jeremy Nicholas: mind. I went to university in the north and I never got much
Jeremy Nicholas: beyond. You're not from around here, are
Jeremy Nicholas: know, eventually with friends, they forget that you're
Jeremy Nicholas: from a different part, but for an audience, when there's a lot of them en
Jeremy Nicholas: masse, you can seem like a bit of an outsider. So the way to then
Jeremy Nicholas: break that down is always make yourself the butt of the
Jeremy Nicholas: so and then people will
Jeremy Nicholas: warm to you. But I couldn't go to Glasgow and start having a go
Jeremy Nicholas: at in Glasgow you do this. I can't believe, you know, that's not going to
Jeremy Nicholas: go down well, but if I start saying it's lovely, here what you do, isn't
Jeremy Nicholas: it? In London we do this and then they'll oh yeah, they'll laugh at that.
Joanne Lockwood: London, right, okay, so you have to create the other group.
Joanne Lockwood: Often when we talk about inclusive cultures, we end up using
Joanne Lockwood: comedy or banter to create another group
Joanne Lockwood: and quite often you can find yourself being on the in group
Joanne Lockwood: and using humour against the other, whereas what you're suggesting there
Joanne Lockwood: is be the other and use your otherness
Joanne Lockwood: to bring you into the in group if you like. Whereas banter is often
Joanne Lockwood: about creating an other and then taking the mickey out of it.
Jeremy Nicholas: Yes. So my rule on that is that I don't
Jeremy Nicholas: ever want anyone in the room to feel threatened.
Jeremy Nicholas: I don't like any sort of cruel humour. So you'll see a lot of stand
Jeremy Nicholas: up comedians that are very cruel in their humour and they're laughing at a very
Jeremy Nicholas: specific group. I don't like to do that and
Jeremy Nicholas: the only specific group I laugh at would be a group that I might belong
Jeremy Nicholas: to. So it might be Londoners or it might be men
Jeremy Nicholas: with bald heads or it might be glasses wearers and all things. It's
Jeremy Nicholas: clear that I'm making a joke about myself and
Jeremy Nicholas: I think that's really important not to have any
Jeremy Nicholas: cruelty. And the thing is, you can do the same stuff in different places and
Jeremy Nicholas: some people will regard it as funny and others will regard
Jeremy Nicholas: it as oh, we shouldn't say that. So, for example, Jimmy Carr
Jeremy Nicholas: did a story about he was working with
Jeremy Nicholas: injured soldiers from Afghanistan
Jeremy Nicholas: and the Gulf conflict, and he was working with them, and a lot of them
Jeremy Nicholas: had lost limbs, and there was a sort of a charity day,
Jeremy Nicholas: bonding day, and he went in and did a free gig for them and but
Jeremy Nicholas: he'd spent the whole day working with them and chatting with them and having pictures
Jeremy Nicholas: taken, and they thought he was great. So when he came on and did a
Jeremy Nicholas: show especially for them, and he said, say what you like about the war in
Jeremy Nicholas: Afghanistan, we're going to have a great team for the Paralympics, they
Jeremy Nicholas: all laughed because they knew that he had judged that that would be all right,
Jeremy Nicholas: because that was the sort of thing that they'd all been saying to him. And
Jeremy Nicholas: they'd had banter amongst themselves. So he knew that was fine.
Jeremy Nicholas: Encouraged by that, he then put it in his set the next night in
Jeremy Nicholas: Manchester to a theatre audience, and people booed him.
Jeremy Nicholas: And the difference was, the soldiers in the audience and their families all
Jeremy Nicholas: knew that he had done so much to help and that that's the sort of
Jeremy Nicholas: thing they would say. And he knew he wasn't having a go at them, he
Jeremy Nicholas: was laughing with them, whereas in Manchester it looked like he
Jeremy Nicholas: was picking on soldiers that lost limbs. And so that was very different. And
Jeremy Nicholas: he's spoken about that and he doesn't do that now. So
Jeremy Nicholas: it's just the difference between looking like you're having a go at
Jeremy Nicholas: people and looking like you're laughing with people. Are you laughing with
Jeremy Nicholas: or at? Yes. When I talk about
Joanne Lockwood: DNI World, it's understanding your intent and then
Joanne Lockwood: the impact. I didn't intend to cause offence, but in this scenario,
Joanne Lockwood: in this context, offence was taken
Joanne Lockwood: because the context was different. Humour.
Joanne Lockwood: You got to understand the context of the humour, haven't you? Yeah.
Jeremy Nicholas: The trouble with analysing humour too much is that inevitably you
Jeremy Nicholas: kill it's like dissecting a frog. You find out how the frog works, but
Jeremy Nicholas: the frog dies. And that's the thing with comedy, you look at it too much,
Jeremy Nicholas: it's like, yes, okay, we've got a bit serious about that. But,
Jeremy Nicholas: yeah, you are right. I suppose as a comedian, you
Joanne Lockwood: probably learn that you can't be funny to all people every time,
Joanne Lockwood: everywhere, and you just have to roll with that and just pick yourself up and
Joanne Lockwood: carry on. Yes. So I
Jeremy Nicholas: did last year at the Edinburgh Fringe, I did 27 shows on
Jeremy Nicholas: 27 days in a row and I was happy with 23 of
Jeremy Nicholas: them. And there were four that I wasn't happy with.
Jeremy Nicholas: But of those four gigs, people came
Jeremy Nicholas: up to me at the end and said, I like that. That's the best show
Jeremy Nicholas: I've seen since I've been at the Fringe. And I'd say, when did you arrive?
Jeremy Nicholas: And they said, about an hour ago. Just a joke I've
Jeremy Nicholas: thrown in. That didn't happen. It just occurred to me now,
Jeremy Nicholas: but the point being the four that I wasn't happy
Jeremy Nicholas: with, it's often because there were people sitting there folding their arms or there was
Jeremy Nicholas: just a person with a grumpy face in the front row. And that is
Jeremy Nicholas: the thing with a fringe venue, the way a
Jeremy Nicholas: comedy gig is set up, the light's very bright on the stage, the audience is
Jeremy Nicholas: in darkness, so you can perhaps only see the front two rows. And if there's
Jeremy Nicholas: one person in the front two rows who has their arm folded, it looks like
Jeremy Nicholas: maybe their partner dragged them along and it's not really their sort of thing and
Jeremy Nicholas: they'd much rather have gone somewhere else. You've just got to
Jeremy Nicholas: zone them out of your head, because if you look at them, you think, this
Jeremy Nicholas: is going really badly. And most comedians have a bit of an insecurity
Jeremy Nicholas: that, oh, I'm not funny anymore.
Jeremy Nicholas: And you've just got to rely on the fact that every night you've done
Jeremy Nicholas: this material, when you've been practising, when you did your previous shows, and when you
Jeremy Nicholas: did it at the event, it got a laugh, so it probably is still funny.
Jeremy Nicholas: So never mind that bloke with a grumpy face in the front row, just ignore
Jeremy Nicholas: them from those four gigs. I got other referrals
Jeremy Nicholas: from people because they said, no, that was really good, but
Jeremy Nicholas: I had times when I thought I might need to just run off this stage
Jeremy Nicholas: and run out into the road screaming because it's going so badly. But it never
Jeremy Nicholas: was. It never was. But most people who do humorous stuff have a little bit
Jeremy Nicholas: of an insecurity about, oh, my goodness, is this funny anymore? Especially if you've
Jeremy Nicholas: done stuff before and so you've got used to it.
Jeremy Nicholas: The things that make me laugh the most are unexpected things.
Jeremy Nicholas: So if I've done a show four times in a row, I think, well, fed
Jeremy Nicholas: up with this now. And the tendency then is to start chucking in
Jeremy Nicholas: new stuff that's just occurring to you like I did about that person. I've
Jeremy Nicholas: just got here an hour ago, which is mildly amusing, but
Jeremy Nicholas: I don't think I'll ever say that ever again in my life. The danger is
Jeremy Nicholas: you get some people who start then riffing and doing stuff that
Jeremy Nicholas: they're thinking of sort of stream of consciousness type stuff, and
Jeremy Nicholas: that's when the danger is, because then you haven't filtered it. The stuff that
Jeremy Nicholas: you've written, you've checked, is there anything offensive in it?
Jeremy Nicholas: It's when people start ad libbing that their true
Jeremy Nicholas: personality might come out and they might say it's something racist or sexist
Jeremy Nicholas: or homophobic if they have that in them. Now, I don't have that in me,
Jeremy Nicholas: so I'm unlikely to do that, but I might go too far
Jeremy Nicholas: just on a particular point. I might be not
Jeremy Nicholas: offensive, but I might just go a little bit too far with something
Jeremy Nicholas: you think probably best not to do that again. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: what you may have done is inadvertently just use language
Joanne Lockwood: that wasn't good language. You wouldn't necessarily be
Joanne Lockwood: offensive, but the language in the context of the way you use that language, someone
Joanne Lockwood: might have detected some sort of element of racism. I think
Joanne Lockwood: you see it politicians all the time. Instead of referring to a person of colour,
Joanne Lockwood: they talked about a coloured person. That's because their
Joanne Lockwood: skill about how to describe somebody and the use of
Joanne Lockwood: adjectives isn't quite right. So, as you say, when they go off
Joanne Lockwood: piece and wing it, they can sometimes
Joanne Lockwood: their inner brain kicks in and then they lose the context or
Joanne Lockwood: sentence that they haven't thought about. And, yeah, I guess
Joanne Lockwood: comedy, it's even more risky to go off
Joanne Lockwood: script, because then how do you get yourself back in again, then? That must
Joanne Lockwood: be quite tricky, but I know what you
Joanne Lockwood: mean about yeah, I. Really like the.
Joanne Lockwood: Carry on. Sorry, I was just going to say I really like
Jeremy Nicholas: the Claire in the Community sitcom on Radio Four. I
Jeremy Nicholas: don't know if you know, I've. Not heard that one. Claire is a social worker,
Jeremy Nicholas: played by she's a social worker, played by Sally Phillips. It's based on a
Jeremy Nicholas: long running comic strip in The Guardian, and she's a social worker, so
Jeremy Nicholas: she tries all the time to use the correct
Jeremy Nicholas: language and be very PC, but occasionally she'll start
Jeremy Nicholas: censoring herself when there's no need to. So they
Jeremy Nicholas: have a meeting and they're talking all about in one of the episodes, they're talking
Jeremy Nicholas: about humour. And she says, yes, we can't have any black humour,
Jeremy Nicholas: dark humour. She just immediately corrects herself on that,
Jeremy Nicholas: as though anyone would have any sort of problem with that.
Jeremy Nicholas: But, yeah, people do tie themselves in circles.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I know what you're saying. Also, when you're on stage, you're delivering
Joanne Lockwood: either as a professional speaker, as a comedian, I've done a few stand up gigs
Joanne Lockwood: and I know if you've got the wrong audience or the
Joanne Lockwood: audience that's not quite in the right eyeline, you've got one person, as you say,
Joanne Lockwood: is looking, playing with their phone, arms crossed, not
Joanne Lockwood: interested. That can almost your brain just locks onto that negativity sometimes,
Joanne Lockwood: isn't it? And I often find when I talk on stage, if I just need
Joanne Lockwood: one person to smile at me in the first couple of sentences and
Joanne Lockwood: I've got them, and that's the person I can work with. I can then blank
Joanne Lockwood: everybody else out. But, yeah, I do a little stand up routine, which
Joanne Lockwood: I've done a few times now, and I delivered it the other day. And the
Joanne Lockwood: audience, it's like a square audience, so I had nobody in front of me, everyone
Joanne Lockwood: was in the periphery and there was no one I could focus on. I couldn't
Joanne Lockwood: hear the laughter. And that's a really tricky thing to sort of pick up on,
Joanne Lockwood: isn't it? And as you said, you start to
Joanne Lockwood: doubt yourself how funny you are. You think, that should have got a laugh and
Joanne Lockwood: it got a titter. It didn't get a belly laugh. And it's a really tricky
Joanne Lockwood: thing. Without wanting
Joanne Lockwood: to date this podcast too much. We're now, in this sort of like, world
Joanne Lockwood: pandemic situation. We hear these words
Joanne Lockwood: unprecedented, and I think we hear about 15 times a day.
Joanne Lockwood: And I think by now it's kind of the norm. I think we can move
Joanne Lockwood: past unprecedented now. So how can we, as
Joanne Lockwood: humans, keep our
Joanne Lockwood: smiles up? The British have this spirit of
Joanne Lockwood: soldiering on stiff upper lip. But how can we now come together as a
Joanne Lockwood: country and laugh about stuff? Yes,
Jeremy Nicholas: so people have different approaches. One thing that a lot of people send to me
Jeremy Nicholas: are lots of little internet memes, little funny images or videos.
Jeremy Nicholas: And to be honest, if I'm working and they start flying in, I
Jeremy Nicholas: just switch my notifications off because I think, no, hang on, I'm busy, and do
Jeremy Nicholas: that. But then I'll settle down the evening and then I'll see them coming in.
Jeremy Nicholas: Someone sent me one the other day and it was a picture of the Last
Jeremy Nicholas: Supper, as though it was a Zoom call. They'd taken all
Jeremy Nicholas: the people, so you've got Jesus in the middle with nobody else on the table.
Jeremy Nicholas: And then all of the disciples have been put into little zoom windows.
Jeremy Nicholas: And that was a funny image. And I felt like, yeah, because that's how I
Jeremy Nicholas: spend my life now, talking to people on zoom.
Jeremy Nicholas: I just think, just pick up the phone to people that always make you
Jeremy Nicholas: laugh, that you always tell good stories with and just have
Jeremy Nicholas: a really good rant about all the things that are annoying you,
Jeremy Nicholas: because it's a great way to release
Jeremy Nicholas: some tension and a lot of comedy
Jeremy Nicholas: just to release a tension. You build up that pressure, build it up, build it
Jeremy Nicholas: up, and then the laughter is the pressure being
Jeremy Nicholas: released. And so we call it truth and
Jeremy Nicholas: pain, where you just moan about stuff
Jeremy Nicholas: and the other
Jeremy Nicholas: that's something that annoys them. Then you'll have a shared bond and you can laugh
Jeremy Nicholas: at it. And you can make your problems smaller by laughing at it. No
Jeremy Nicholas: matter how big something seems, if you laugh at it, what a great weapon that
Jeremy Nicholas: is. It just brings it down to size. So that's called truth and
Jeremy Nicholas: pain. And if you think about a comedian or a professional
Jeremy Nicholas: speaker, when they come on, they don't ever start by saying, I'll tell you what
Jeremy Nicholas: I really like. And if they told you all the stuff they liked
Jeremy Nicholas: and that they're happy with, that's not funny. But if they go, oh, it drives
Jeremy Nicholas: me mad when so Billy Connolly would be the best at
Jeremy Nicholas: know when the person in front of you plays with a cheque or you pick
Jeremy Nicholas: the wrong queue at the post office. Yeah,
Jeremy Nicholas: Ulster is going to the days when we were allowed outside, of course,
Jeremy Nicholas: but it's that common shared thing. So
Jeremy Nicholas: I have a programme called Talking Funny for Speakers,
Jeremy Nicholas: where I give them exercises to do on
Jeremy Nicholas: how to make their talks funnier. And week one, the exercise is write
Jeremy Nicholas: down all the things that annoy you, and then in the group, we all share
Jeremy Nicholas: all the things that annoy us. And then you think, right, what is funny about
Jeremy Nicholas: that? And then what else is funny about that? And what would be even more?
Jeremy Nicholas: And it'll go to like, four stages and what else? And what else? And what
Jeremy Nicholas: else until you get that little bit of gold that like, yep, that's the line.
Jeremy Nicholas: That's what really annoys me. Yeah, I like that,
Joanne Lockwood: because the routine I do, I think you've heard it, is all around the pain
Joanne Lockwood: in my life and the sort of ironic examples of
Joanne Lockwood: how just being me in the world. And
Joanne Lockwood: people laugh at it because they'd never thought of those things in that context
Joanne Lockwood: before. And it allows them to get an insight onto the pain and the
Joanne Lockwood: irony that I face every day. If I just said, I'm really happy
Joanne Lockwood: walking down the street, there's no humour in that, is there? But,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, if I say I'm walking. Down the street,
Jeremy Nicholas: what gets the biggest laugh in your routine? What is the line that you think
Jeremy Nicholas: always that's the killer line. I
Joanne Lockwood: talk about the airport scanner and the punchline to that
Joanne Lockwood: is unexpected item in the bagging area. And that always gets the
Joanne Lockwood: sort of people come up to me afterwards and they're still laughing about that one
Joanne Lockwood: bit because it's a common phrase
Joanne Lockwood: used in a different context and I don't kind of signpost
Joanne Lockwood: it enough and then I land it and it kind of just makes people go,
Joanne Lockwood: wow, where did that come from? Yeah, I see what you say. Oh, yeah, I
Joanne Lockwood: get it now. And it's a way of being crude without being
Joanne Lockwood: crude, isn't it, as well? And I think when you have a
Jeremy Nicholas: good line like that, what I always encourage people to do is then say, and
Jeremy Nicholas: what else could you say about that? What other things would go along with
Jeremy Nicholas: unexpected item in the baggage area? I actually
Joanne Lockwood: now talk about the fact that so women out there,
Joanne Lockwood: if you want to smuggle cocaine, make it look like you're trans, it's much easier
Joanne Lockwood: to get through customs that way. Very good
Jeremy Nicholas: line. Yeah, we've got a laugh as well.
Joanne Lockwood: Do you find sometimes people kind of mask an
Joanne Lockwood: underlying mental health problem by using humour? They're using it as a way
Joanne Lockwood: of covering their life and how can we stop or
Joanne Lockwood: how can we spot that and help people who are just
Joanne Lockwood: masking their underlying conditions?
Jeremy Nicholas: Yes, I think a lot of people that
Jeremy Nicholas: a lot of professional comedians have over the years have
Jeremy Nicholas: mental health problems. There's a very high rate of suicide
Jeremy Nicholas: amongst comedians, and alcoholism and drugs, but then there's an awful
Jeremy Nicholas: lot that don't have any problems with it at all.
Jeremy Nicholas: But I think people that
Jeremy Nicholas: just think a little bit differently are often very good
Jeremy Nicholas: at making humour.
Jeremy Nicholas: I don't know how you spot it and I don't really know how you help,
Jeremy Nicholas: because that's not really my end of things. No,
Joanne Lockwood: so, Robin Williams, for example, everyone thought he was the life and soul of the
Joanne Lockwood: party and quite clearly had some very underlying mental health
Joanne Lockwood: conditions, and everyone thought he was okay,
Joanne Lockwood: that was how he was. But I guess he must have gone home at night,
Joanne Lockwood: switched off the microphone, switched off the camera
Joanne Lockwood: and turned in on himself, maybe. Yeah, because
Joanne Lockwood: as a speaker, and I know many speakers, we kind of thrive
Joanne Lockwood: on the audience appreciation, don't we? We thrive on
Joanne Lockwood: that brain drug that we like to be liked.
Joanne Lockwood: And sometimes when you're not in front of the camera, not without an
Joanne Lockwood: audience, the vacuum appears, isn't it? And you're then living on your own
Joanne Lockwood: with yourself again and no one to find you. So I
Jeremy Nicholas: think my thing is that it's important
Jeremy Nicholas: not to care too much whether they laugh or not, because if you're
Jeremy Nicholas: really craving that laughter like it's heroin,
Jeremy Nicholas: then on the days when you haven't got a show, you're going to
Jeremy Nicholas: struggle. So I think just think of
Jeremy Nicholas: it, it's nice if they smile.
Jeremy Nicholas: If they laugh, it's better. But if they don't do anything, they've still
Jeremy Nicholas: had the story that you're telling. That's my big thing. It's always got to
Jeremy Nicholas: be I don't ever think of myself as a comedian,
Jeremy Nicholas: I think of myself as a storyteller with some kind of a learning
Jeremy Nicholas: message. So they're getting the learning, they're hearing the story,
Jeremy Nicholas: and then instantly, if they laugh as well, that's a bonus. And usually they do,
Jeremy Nicholas: but I wouldn't ever want to go out and just do did you hear the
Jeremy Nicholas: one about because to me, there's no point. I don't crave
Jeremy Nicholas: the laughter enough for that, and I'm not funny enough either for
Jeremy Nicholas: that, because all of my background is I was a BBC
Jeremy Nicholas: broadcaster journalist for years, so it's always been about the
Jeremy Nicholas: content. And the humour for me is only ever the icing on the
Jeremy Nicholas: cake. It's not the actual cake itself, it's just a little bit of
Jeremy Nicholas: sprinkle of sugar to help that medicine go down. Good
Joanne Lockwood: point. I've seen you MC some
Joanne Lockwood: events, and I think you're a fantastic MC, and I know you even coach
Joanne Lockwood: MCs for events as well. So how important it is? Is
Joanne Lockwood: it to have a great MC or someone facilitating? Because some content
Joanne Lockwood: in some conference could be quite straight laced or do need
Joanne Lockwood: this icebreaker. So how do you see your role in that situation?
Jeremy Nicholas: Yeah, so I see the role of the MC to set the tone for the
Jeremy Nicholas: event, to answer any questions that the audience might
Jeremy Nicholas: have. So, first of all, what's the WiFi
Jeremy Nicholas: password? Where are the toilets? When's the break? How long is
Jeremy Nicholas: this going on? When can I get out of here so that people can plan
Jeremy Nicholas: that? Any other questions? Like, if they're gluten
Jeremy Nicholas: free, there's gluten free sandwiches at
Jeremy Nicholas: the far end in the breakout sessions. Do I have to pick now?
Jeremy Nicholas: So, any question. So I just think, what do the audience need to know? And
Jeremy Nicholas: then it's about giving a build up to all of the speakers. And
Jeremy Nicholas: most speakers give me introductions that are far too long and I just say,
Jeremy Nicholas: all I need to know is who you are, what you're speaking about, why we
Jeremy Nicholas: should listen. Please welcome your name. That's all I need, four lines, but
Jeremy Nicholas: still people send me biographies and I don't care about that. I don't care
Jeremy Nicholas: how many universities you went to and how many degrees you've got and what your
Jeremy Nicholas: names of your children are, just who you are, what you're talking about, why you're
Jeremy Nicholas: here, why we should listen. What's your name? Off you go. And
Jeremy Nicholas: then it's coordinating the clapping, really.
Jeremy Nicholas: Organisers often haven't got a clue how to do this. A number of times they'll
Jeremy Nicholas: say, well, the chief executive is going to say a few words and then welcome
Jeremy Nicholas: you as the MC. That's something I get all the time. And whenever I have
Jeremy Nicholas: the meeting, I say, okay, that's mad. I need to come on
Jeremy Nicholas: first to hush them up. Tell them the rules, tell them about
Jeremy Nicholas: switching their phone to silent, tell them the hashtag, all those things they need to
Jeremy Nicholas: know, and then, please welcome the chief exec. So he come or he or she
Jeremy Nicholas: comes on to applause. And I said, if the chief exec goes
Jeremy Nicholas: on, then he or she will then
Jeremy Nicholas: have to hush them up. Well, that's not a good way to do it. And
Jeremy Nicholas: then welcome me. Why welcoming me? I'm just some bloke you've paid, so all right,
Jeremy Nicholas: yes, okay, we'll do it that way around. And then with the speakers, you need
Jeremy Nicholas: to make sure that they start well and
Jeremy Nicholas: any kind of showing off that they were going to do, you do for them.
Jeremy Nicholas: So if someone's written a book, I don't want them coming on waving their book
Jeremy Nicholas: around. I'll go, oh, they've written this book, they must be worth listening to. And
Jeremy Nicholas: then I'm giving them a plug and then they come on to applause.
Jeremy Nicholas: And then my other big tip for MCs, sorry, I'm a bit fanatical about this,
Jeremy Nicholas: is that when you get to a break, when you get to a break, you
Jeremy Nicholas: want to leave the stage to applause. The number of times people go, Well, I
Jeremy Nicholas: think we'll take a break there. See you back in 15 minutes. And then everyone
Jeremy Nicholas: shuffles out quietly. What you need to say
Jeremy Nicholas: is, coming up after the break, we've got Dave, who's
Jeremy Nicholas: going to do this, we've got Miranda, who's going to do a session on this,
Jeremy Nicholas: and Leslie will be here to share these thoughts. But let's hear it for the
Jeremy Nicholas: two speakers we've heard so far, joe and Marion.
Jeremy Nicholas: And then there's clapping. You walk off, it's not your clapping, they're clapping. Jo and
Jeremy Nicholas: Marion. But it means that everyone knows that that's the thing. And they're
Jeremy Nicholas: not just shuffling out quietly to get a coffee. No great
Joanne Lockwood: ideas, great tips. And I think when you're in the audience, you can experience the
Joanne Lockwood: difference. As you say, there's the chalk and cheese there, and
Joanne Lockwood: a great MC adds to the event. There's a valuable part of it, and
Joanne Lockwood: it makes the segue between the speakers
Joanne Lockwood: far more relevant. You get the takeaway summarised, you get build
Joanne Lockwood: up energy in the room. And I know when I come on stage, I love
Joanne Lockwood: the energy as I come in. And the one thing
Jeremy Nicholas: people often say is, oh, you don't notice a good MC. If they've done their
Jeremy Nicholas: job, you shouldn't notice them. If they don't notice me, I haven't done my
Jeremy Nicholas: job. I want them to notice me because I want them to think, oh, that
Jeremy Nicholas: was really good. It reflowed. Well, because of the MC, I'll recommend him to somebody
Jeremy Nicholas: else. So forget that rubbish about you don't notice a good MC. That's
Jeremy Nicholas: rubbish. No, I agree with that. I've MC'd a couple of
Joanne Lockwood: events and I really want to be building them up. I want the audience
Joanne Lockwood: to start clapping. I even get to practise clapping while we're in the dead space
Joanne Lockwood: before the thing starts. I want a couple of whoops. I get competition going
Joanne Lockwood: between the sides, and then when someone comes on, they're already in that zone where
Joanne Lockwood: they don't mind clapping and being vocal, which is what you
Joanne Lockwood: want as a stage performer, as a speaker, you want that
Joanne Lockwood: energy because that's what you soak up when you first come on, isn't it?
Joanne Lockwood: And I love the point about you introducing my book and not me,
Joanne Lockwood: because it's having someone else talk about you as an authority
Joanne Lockwood: is far more powerful than saying about yourself, isn't it?
Jeremy Nicholas: Yeah, absolutely. I think that all speakers would welcome a good MC
Jeremy Nicholas: because then they're coming on, they've started the fire, and then the speaker will just
Jeremy Nicholas: come on and throw paraffin on the fire and get it all going. But if
Jeremy Nicholas: they come on dead, it's really hard to lift it. And especially if you've
Jeremy Nicholas: had a session and the speaker before you wasn't very good or the
Jeremy Nicholas: subject was very serious, so it brought the mood down a bit, then
Jeremy Nicholas: the job of the MC is to, oh, I can't let the next person start
Jeremy Nicholas: like that. So it's basically like a barbecue, where occasionally, as
Jeremy Nicholas: the MC, you've got to put a few bits of paper, a bit of a
Jeremy Nicholas: bit of opening the air valve belonging to get it going,
Jeremy Nicholas: so that the next person starts it's like a spinning top. You've just got to
Jeremy Nicholas: whip it a few times to get the top going so that the
Jeremy Nicholas: next speaker at least starts with a decent chance of doing a good gig.
Joanne Lockwood: Well, thank you for your time, Jeremy. I really appreciate you taking
Joanne Lockwood: some time out in your busy pre Easter schedule.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm sure you have lots of things planned, like going to the side or maybe
Joanne Lockwood: going for a walk in the forest. But maybe next week.
Joanne Lockwood: Well, maybe August, but keep safe. So,
Joanne Lockwood: for my listeners, many thanks to Jeremy. I'm sure you'll agree there's plenty of humour
Joanne Lockwood: for thought. We talked a bit about MCE as well. And a huge thank
Joanne Lockwood: you to you all for listening in. So please do subscribe
Joanne Lockwood: to keep updated on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast.
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Joanne Lockwood: So, my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast
Joanne Lockwood: for you today.