WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.490 --> 00:00:04.154 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host 2 00:00:04.202 --> 00:00:07.806 for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be 3 00:00:07.828 --> 00:00:11.434 interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation 4 00:00:11.562 --> 00:00:15.294 around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making 5 00:00:15.332 --> 00:00:19.146 the world a better place for everyone to thrive in. If you'd like to join 6 00:00:19.178 --> 00:00:21.854 me in the future, then please do drop me a line to 7 00:00:21.892 --> 00:00:26.146 jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 8 00:00:26.338 --> 00:00:29.554 You'll be able to catch up with all of the shows on itunes, 9 00:00:29.682 --> 00:00:33.206 Spotify and all the usual places. So plug in your 10 00:00:33.228 --> 00:00:36.840 headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. 11 00:00:38.110 --> 00:00:41.130 Today is episode five with the title 12 00:00:41.550 --> 00:00:45.386 Swimming Upstream Against The Flow, and I have 13 00:00:45.408 --> 00:00:48.646 the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Lewis 14 00:00:48.678 --> 00:00:52.498 Bell-Cawthra. I recently met Lewis online via 15 00:00:52.534 --> 00:00:55.866 LinkedIn just prior to the lockdown and we seemed to hit it off straight 16 00:00:55.898 --> 00:00:59.354 away. Lewis is a principal consultant and recruitment 17 00:00:59.402 --> 00:01:03.054 manager who is currently on furlough. He advocates for 18 00:01:03.092 --> 00:01:06.574 LGBTQ rights, along with trying to create a more inclusive 19 00:01:06.622 --> 00:01:10.274 space in the tech and recruitment world. So I asked 20 00:01:10.312 --> 00:01:13.666 Lewis to describe his passion and he said giving 21 00:01:13.768 --> 00:01:17.266 people a voice. Hello, Lewis, 22 00:01:17.458 --> 00:01:20.914 welcome to the show. When did you first realise 23 00:01:21.042 --> 00:01:24.470 you had been swimming upstream against the flow? 24 00:01:24.970 --> 00:01:27.800 Hi, Jo, thank you so much for having me today. 25 00:01:28.590 --> 00:01:31.770 I guess for me, I kind of first 26 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:35.578 realised when I first started recruitment, actually 27 00:01:35.744 --> 00:01:39.386 previously to that I was working in an industry that was very 28 00:01:39.408 --> 00:01:42.954 inclusive and very accepting. So I was in the travel industry 29 00:01:43.002 --> 00:01:46.622 for about ten years. I kind of went in the travel 30 00:01:46.676 --> 00:01:50.446 industry to escape and get away from everything and 31 00:01:50.468 --> 00:01:53.838 I became a holiday rep. And most people do say that if you become a 32 00:01:53.844 --> 00:01:57.666 holiday rep, you're going to escape or run away from something. And I 33 00:01:57.688 --> 00:02:01.346 was kind of going to run away from myself and not wanting to be 34 00:02:01.368 --> 00:02:04.820 gay and not wanting to be something that wasn't the norm. 35 00:02:05.590 --> 00:02:09.366 So even from being a holiday rep, I 36 00:02:09.388 --> 00:02:12.854 knew I wasn't going in the same direction as everybody wanted me to go in, 37 00:02:12.892 --> 00:02:16.694 as society would want me to. But I felt that the 38 00:02:16.732 --> 00:02:20.566 travel industry was so accepting and it didn't matter who you were, what you 39 00:02:20.588 --> 00:02:24.362 were and what you believed in, you could just be yourself. It wasn't really until 40 00:02:24.416 --> 00:02:27.978 then. I came back to the UK and then went into the 41 00:02:27.984 --> 00:02:31.774 corporate world and started working in recruitment and then see 42 00:02:31.892 --> 00:02:35.742 a totally different way of being treated because I was 43 00:02:35.796 --> 00:02:39.566 gay. I guess the first sort 44 00:02:39.588 --> 00:02:43.406 of small things after a few weeks of being in the 45 00:02:43.428 --> 00:02:47.026 office and my manager asked me why I never told her I was 46 00:02:47.048 --> 00:02:50.894 gay during my interview process. And that raised 47 00:02:50.942 --> 00:02:52.610 the lion bells for me straight 48 00:02:55.190 --> 00:02:58.946 into, it doesn't matter if I was gay, I didn't need to go into an 49 00:02:58.968 --> 00:03:02.454 interview and say, hi, I'm Lewis, I'm gay. Like, I wouldn't expect them to say 50 00:03:02.492 --> 00:03:06.294 hi, I'm such and such. I'm straight. It's not something that gets 51 00:03:06.332 --> 00:03:10.054 brought up into conversation. Was this in the Dark Ages? 52 00:03:10.102 --> 00:03:13.770 I mean, back in the 18 hundreds? No, this is kind of no, this is 53 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:17.306 recently. When was I I started in 54 00:03:17.328 --> 00:03:18.410 2015, 55 00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:22.270 five years ago. 56 00:03:22.420 --> 00:03:26.126 So we're not talking about a lifetime ago. This is recent history. You 57 00:03:26.148 --> 00:03:29.120 were still asked about why you hadn't told. 58 00:03:32.290 --> 00:03:36.046 So yeah, it was a bit strange. I kind of let it go, thinking, 59 00:03:36.148 --> 00:03:38.500 do you know what? Right? I'm new to a business, 60 00:03:39.830 --> 00:03:43.282 I don't feel like I should bring this should bring it up as a problem, 61 00:03:43.336 --> 00:03:47.126 so I just carried on as normal. I am 62 00:03:47.228 --> 00:03:50.790 a massive football fan and I love football, 63 00:03:51.690 --> 00:03:55.346 but the office didn't invite me to watch football 64 00:03:55.378 --> 00:03:59.226 matches because they didn't assume I liked football because I was gay as 65 00:03:59.248 --> 00:04:02.602 well. And that kind 66 00:04:02.656 --> 00:04:06.220 of annoyed me more because that was something that 67 00:04:07.070 --> 00:04:10.318 liking football has got nothing to do with being gay or anything anyway. So it 68 00:04:10.324 --> 00:04:13.966 was kind of, I can't enjoy a passion of 69 00:04:13.988 --> 00:04:17.786 mine because I'm gay. And that was when I kind of questioned 70 00:04:17.818 --> 00:04:21.310 it and my questions were ignored. 71 00:04:21.810 --> 00:04:25.380 Okay, so what did they assume you would like doing? 72 00:04:26.070 --> 00:04:28.580 Karaoke, bars, naba or something? Was it. 73 00:04:30.790 --> 00:04:34.238 I didn't really ask. I was just like, okay. And the thing is, I didn't 74 00:04:34.254 --> 00:04:36.978 want to say anything. It was only because I spoke to all my colleague and 75 00:04:36.984 --> 00:04:39.606 they asked me if I was going to the match and I went, oh, I 76 00:04:39.628 --> 00:04:43.378 didn't get like, I'm 77 00:04:43.394 --> 00:04:46.946 not going to say anything. Everybody, all the lads in the office got invited apart 78 00:04:46.978 --> 00:04:50.746 from me. And then they said something in the office in 79 00:04:50.768 --> 00:04:54.278 front of everybody and said, look, why aren't you inviting Lewis? And then someone piled 80 00:04:54.294 --> 00:04:56.810 up saying, why would he like football? 81 00:05:02.670 --> 00:05:06.250 It was just a bit of was. It an all male environment? 82 00:05:06.910 --> 00:05:10.718 No, predominantly, I probably 83 00:05:10.804 --> 00:05:14.094 say it was about 70% 84 00:05:14.212 --> 00:05:18.002 male, 30% female. So they didn't invade the women 85 00:05:18.056 --> 00:05:20.100 to the football either, then? It was kind of 86 00:05:21.190 --> 00:05:24.898 male guy bro thing. They were the only ones allowed to 87 00:05:24.904 --> 00:05:28.680 go. So then I was like, you know what, 88 00:05:29.450 --> 00:05:33.030 if I left, it'd be like I'm running away from it and not 89 00:05:33.100 --> 00:05:36.662 tackling it head on. I need to do 90 00:05:36.716 --> 00:05:40.342 something about this to try and change the way that people 91 00:05:40.396 --> 00:05:44.154 are treated, because I'm quite a strong person. If there was 92 00:05:44.192 --> 00:05:46.918 somebody else that probably wasn't as strong as me, they probably would have just walked 93 00:05:46.934 --> 00:05:50.220 away and thought, you know what, the recruitment industry isn't for me. 94 00:05:50.690 --> 00:05:54.160 I'm going to get treated differently because I am gay, so 95 00:05:54.930 --> 00:05:58.558 let's find another industry. And I was like, no, I'm going to continue 96 00:05:58.644 --> 00:06:01.966 doing it. Luckily, there was another 97 00:06:02.068 --> 00:06:05.780 gay guy that worked in another office near to me for the same company. 98 00:06:06.550 --> 00:06:10.194 So I kind of just reached out to him just to see how he got 99 00:06:10.232 --> 00:06:14.062 on with things. He recruited into quite a male dominated 100 00:06:14.126 --> 00:06:17.606 industry as well, so he kind of had to tackle that. 101 00:06:17.708 --> 00:06:21.202 Whereas for me, I recruited into a dominantly female 102 00:06:21.266 --> 00:06:24.566 industry. I recruited originally for 103 00:06:24.668 --> 00:06:27.350 Pas secretaries, office managers, 104 00:06:28.650 --> 00:06:30.940 which is obviously totally different to what I do now. So 105 00:06:32.270 --> 00:06:35.866 I use my recruitment platform to try and educate not just my 106 00:06:35.888 --> 00:06:39.082 office, but to try and actually get people in 107 00:06:39.136 --> 00:06:42.518 Devon and CEO to actually start discussing 108 00:06:42.614 --> 00:06:46.446 diversity and inclusion. And it's not just a tick box to have on 109 00:06:46.468 --> 00:06:49.934 an application form, and it's not just a quota that they need to 110 00:06:49.972 --> 00:06:53.150 fulfil to make themselves feel a bit better, 111 00:06:53.220 --> 00:06:55.940 which the impression I was getting from them. 112 00:06:56.950 --> 00:07:00.722 So I first thought, you know, what, the biggest platform for me 113 00:07:00.776 --> 00:07:04.274 that I could probably get involved with in Exeter, where I can 114 00:07:04.312 --> 00:07:07.706 influence businesses more, was to become a trustee for Exeter 115 00:07:07.758 --> 00:07:11.506 Pride. So I signed up for that, became 116 00:07:11.538 --> 00:07:15.110 their communications manager, had 117 00:07:15.180 --> 00:07:18.998 no idea, if I'm honest, what I was doing, but 118 00:07:19.084 --> 00:07:22.874 I kind of enjoyed those challenges more than going into a challenge where I know 119 00:07:22.912 --> 00:07:26.714 exactly what I'm supposed to be doing. I don't feel I learn as much if 120 00:07:26.752 --> 00:07:30.138 I go straight in and do what I'm supposed to do sort of 121 00:07:30.144 --> 00:07:33.790 thing. I joined Extra Pride. 122 00:07:34.610 --> 00:07:38.430 I was lucky enough then to be able to go out to businesses and 123 00:07:38.580 --> 00:07:41.886 explain what Extra Pride was and the need for it and the 124 00:07:41.908 --> 00:07:45.266 understanding of it and how they can get involved and make a 125 00:07:45.288 --> 00:07:49.106 difference. This then opened up more avenues for the charities that 126 00:07:49.128 --> 00:07:52.914 we were working alongside as well. I was able to go out 127 00:07:52.952 --> 00:07:56.706 to schools and do story times with them and then give 128 00:07:56.728 --> 00:08:00.438 them an understanding of what Pride was and actually get to ask the kids 129 00:08:00.524 --> 00:08:04.294 what they thought Pride was about. And that was actually really 130 00:08:04.332 --> 00:08:08.086 good to understand that and to see what impression they had, to see if 131 00:08:08.108 --> 00:08:11.866 their parents were actually educating them at home as well. Because I 132 00:08:11.888 --> 00:08:15.226 know a lot of my friends are teachers and they spend so much time trying 133 00:08:15.248 --> 00:08:18.778 to educate the children in school, it's when they leave school 134 00:08:18.864 --> 00:08:22.586 and go home and then normal society changes 135 00:08:22.688 --> 00:08:26.478 everything they've learned in school and said, no, you're a boy, you must 136 00:08:26.564 --> 00:08:30.398 do that. Or if you're gay, then you're not going 137 00:08:30.404 --> 00:08:33.280 to be able to go down this avenue for your career and things like that. 138 00:08:35.170 --> 00:08:38.850 I spent the first year working with Extra Pride. 139 00:08:39.430 --> 00:08:43.140 I got my company that I worked for to sponsor it as well, 140 00:08:43.990 --> 00:08:47.522 to try and change the way that they thought about 141 00:08:47.576 --> 00:08:51.238 it. So is that the same company where you weren't invited to the 142 00:08:51.244 --> 00:08:55.058 football, so you were starting to bring change already into that environment? 143 00:08:55.234 --> 00:08:59.078 I wasn't doing it. I don't think you can make change overnight and I don't 144 00:08:59.084 --> 00:09:02.298 think you need to throw it in somebody's face. I think it just needs to 145 00:09:02.304 --> 00:09:05.660 be gradual. And it was the little things like 146 00:09:06.190 --> 00:09:09.750 I put flags up in the office during sort of Pride 147 00:09:09.830 --> 00:09:11.420 Month and things like that. 148 00:09:13.730 --> 00:09:17.566 We would do like a lunch and learn and I would talk more about 149 00:09:17.588 --> 00:09:21.006 diversity and inclusion in general, just to give them more of an 150 00:09:21.028 --> 00:09:24.786 understanding of it. One of the events that 151 00:09:24.808 --> 00:09:28.546 I did with extra pride. We go to UK Pom, which is the 152 00:09:28.568 --> 00:09:32.158 UK Pride Organisations Network, and there's an organisation 153 00:09:32.254 --> 00:09:36.066 you're probably aware of called My Umbrella. And they gave us a 154 00:09:36.088 --> 00:09:39.926 talk and they gave us lots of documents and flyers and posters that we 155 00:09:39.948 --> 00:09:43.590 could use to put around the office, just to give people more of an 156 00:09:43.660 --> 00:09:46.470 understanding of the way people identify 157 00:09:47.450 --> 00:09:51.210 the different flags and what they represent. So just putting them up in the Office 158 00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:53.100 started to make a little bit of a 159 00:09:56.830 --> 00:10:00.474 kind of I did a lot of work, obviously, as I said, with 160 00:10:00.512 --> 00:10:03.966 diversity at that current company. I 161 00:10:03.988 --> 00:10:07.550 was really heavily involved with the local PA network 162 00:10:08.050 --> 00:10:11.774 and they were very much trying to push it so I can go out and 163 00:10:11.812 --> 00:10:15.442 talk to big bosses about inclusion, diversity and trying to use 164 00:10:15.496 --> 00:10:19.346 their platform to extend mine as well. And 165 00:10:19.368 --> 00:10:22.882 then I was probably with the company for about two 166 00:10:22.936 --> 00:10:26.630 years, and then we were on a night out and 167 00:10:26.700 --> 00:10:30.486 it was probably the first time in about five or six 168 00:10:30.508 --> 00:10:34.162 years I've ever had homophobic 169 00:10:34.226 --> 00:10:37.320 abuse thrown at me. Now, 170 00:10:37.710 --> 00:10:41.002 obviously, I know we're using words 171 00:10:41.056 --> 00:10:44.810 now to keep in the past 172 00:10:44.880 --> 00:10:48.330 been used negatively. Obviously, the word queer, 173 00:10:48.910 --> 00:10:52.426 for me, that word has always been a negative because it was what I was 174 00:10:52.448 --> 00:10:56.110 bullied with and that was what I was thrown at. There's words 175 00:10:56.180 --> 00:10:59.918 that people don't like that I find more accepting, because that's just 176 00:11:00.004 --> 00:11:03.778 how I perceived it when I was younger. But, yeah, I 177 00:11:03.784 --> 00:11:07.634 was on a night out and someone I worked with shouted and called 178 00:11:07.672 --> 00:11:10.340 me a dirty queer and went to punch me. 179 00:11:11.350 --> 00:11:15.146 And because the leaders watched 180 00:11:15.198 --> 00:11:18.834 it and pulled away and told me to ignore 181 00:11:18.882 --> 00:11:21.640 it, I was like, yeah, this isn't for me. 182 00:11:22.490 --> 00:11:25.830 I went to HR and I was kind of 183 00:11:25.900 --> 00:11:29.130 forced into not taking my complaint further 184 00:11:30.270 --> 00:11:33.626 because they said it would be too much 185 00:11:33.728 --> 00:11:37.530 involvement with the rest of the Office and it would bring up 186 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:41.306 bad memories for everybody as well. It 187 00:11:41.328 --> 00:11:44.814 put a dark moment on the whole evening for everybody to do it. Yeah, 188 00:11:44.932 --> 00:11:48.526 you felt that you had to suppress that and there was no 189 00:11:48.548 --> 00:11:51.854 support, there was no understanding of what you. Went 190 00:11:51.892 --> 00:11:55.714 through, there was no support. It was kind 191 00:11:55.752 --> 00:11:59.186 of, yes, HR spoke to me and they came to the Office and we had 192 00:11:59.208 --> 00:12:02.866 a chat and they would have probably pursued it, 193 00:12:02.888 --> 00:12:06.180 but my director, no, 194 00:12:06.570 --> 00:12:10.306 let's sort this out outside of disciplinary, let's try and get it, let's 195 00:12:10.338 --> 00:12:14.166 just get them to apologise to you. I think 196 00:12:14.188 --> 00:12:18.006 at that time anyway, my mind was probably made up. I was 197 00:12:18.028 --> 00:12:21.386 going to leave, so I was like you know what? Which I do regret now 198 00:12:21.408 --> 00:12:25.258 I probably thought I probably should pursue this because it may have made a difference 199 00:12:25.344 --> 00:12:29.146 and made changes in the future so 200 00:12:29.168 --> 00:12:32.634 I left and it was 201 00:12:32.672 --> 00:12:36.014 weird. The next sort of interviews that I had, I 202 00:12:36.052 --> 00:12:39.470 purposely made them aware I was gay. During interview, 203 00:12:39.810 --> 00:12:43.434 it kind of changed, which is strange, 204 00:12:43.482 --> 00:12:47.146 but it kind of just came into conversation. When they asked me about my 205 00:12:47.188 --> 00:12:50.642 interests and what I did, I thought, well, maybe I need to then, 206 00:12:50.696 --> 00:12:54.050 because obviously in my last employer, they felt it was a bit of an issue. 207 00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:57.742 I didn't so I brought it up in conversation 208 00:12:57.886 --> 00:13:00.946 it was just by chance I just said oh I help out of extra pride 209 00:13:01.138 --> 00:13:04.834 I'm getting married to I told him my husband's 210 00:13:04.882 --> 00:13:08.666 name to be in a few months time and they were like 211 00:13:08.688 --> 00:13:12.442 yeah great. And it was fine, absolutely fine and it 212 00:13:12.496 --> 00:13:16.294 changed my whole perception of recruitment 213 00:13:16.342 --> 00:13:16.940 companies. 214 00:13:19.950 --> 00:13:23.574 So by telling people up front did you feel like you had to, you wanted 215 00:13:23.632 --> 00:13:27.166 to or you did? It almost like trying to 216 00:13:27.188 --> 00:13:30.558 prevent a problem in the future what was the motivation? You felt comfortable doing it 217 00:13:30.564 --> 00:13:32.320 or you felt pressured into it? 218 00:13:35.590 --> 00:13:39.060 Probably I felt I had to do it because I didn't want to. 219 00:13:39.430 --> 00:13:40.980 It's weird isn't it? Because 220 00:13:43.030 --> 00:13:46.866 whatever you identify as. But I do feel like every time I go into 221 00:13:46.888 --> 00:13:49.400 a new environment, I got to come out all over again. 222 00:13:50.650 --> 00:13:54.390 You have to. And this may come across the wrong way, but 223 00:13:54.460 --> 00:13:58.102 I'm not always the typical as people will say, like, 224 00:13:58.156 --> 00:14:01.946 you don't look gay. And I'm like, okay, I'll put a flag on my 225 00:14:01.968 --> 00:14:05.242 head. I love that. Okay so 226 00:14:05.376 --> 00:14:09.194 sometimes it is harder because then I've got because they're asking me like questions 227 00:14:09.312 --> 00:14:12.826 like oh have you got a girlfriend? And now I've got a boyfriend or got 228 00:14:12.848 --> 00:14:16.638 a husband that's what I'll be like now but I want to prevent that. I 229 00:14:16.644 --> 00:14:20.446 don't want that awkwardness. And then sometimes I can be 230 00:14:20.468 --> 00:14:23.818 a bit like I like to play and they're trying to guess if I'm gay 231 00:14:23.834 --> 00:14:27.426 or not. And I'm not telling them I'm the same partner just 232 00:14:27.448 --> 00:14:30.322 because I sometimes find it funny with some of my colleagues when they first start. 233 00:14:30.376 --> 00:14:33.954 But when I first went into my new 234 00:14:33.992 --> 00:14:37.042 business, I felt I just thought, you know what? Let's just be out and open 235 00:14:37.096 --> 00:14:40.930 with them from day. One, and it won't make a difference 236 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:43.654 because it shouldn't do. If it does make a difference, then they're not the right 237 00:14:43.692 --> 00:14:47.542 company for me. So, yeah, I just felt like it would be 238 00:14:47.596 --> 00:14:51.146 easier in the long run to prevent any awkward conversations in the 239 00:14:51.168 --> 00:14:54.858 future. And they 240 00:14:54.864 --> 00:14:58.426 were interested that they asked me more about what DIVIDEX surprise and 241 00:14:58.528 --> 00:15:02.374 how they can get. Involved more we're 242 00:15:02.422 --> 00:15:06.190 very small companies and like twelve of us so they don't have any 243 00:15:06.260 --> 00:15:09.886 sort of inclusion officers and things like that within the company. So 244 00:15:09.988 --> 00:15:13.746 it was kind of interesting for them to learn more from me. So if you 245 00:15:13.768 --> 00:15:16.980 compare the two organisations, then, so the first one, where 246 00:15:18.070 --> 00:15:21.426 you felt discriminated against, you were bullied, you had an 247 00:15:21.448 --> 00:15:25.198 incident compared with the second one. What was the 248 00:15:25.224 --> 00:15:28.630 difference in culture? How did the organisations 249 00:15:29.130 --> 00:15:32.934 differ in how that culture evolved? I mean, what can you say? 250 00:15:33.052 --> 00:15:36.200 What was it? I think with the new company, 251 00:15:38.330 --> 00:15:41.626 there was no sort of hierarchy, there was no sort of level of 252 00:15:41.728 --> 00:15:45.370 seniority within the business. It was just very much open door policy and 253 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:48.540 everybody was everybody. You knew everyone from day one. 254 00:15:49.470 --> 00:15:53.166 It just felt a lot more welcoming. The other 255 00:15:53.188 --> 00:15:56.270 company is very much more corporate, very process driven. 256 00:15:57.890 --> 00:16:01.280 It just felt a lot more relaxed. Where I went to now, 257 00:16:02.690 --> 00:16:05.514 would you. Say that the first organisation was more institutionalised 258 00:16:05.562 --> 00:16:09.218 homophobia? It was kind of almost like, it's okay, 259 00:16:09.304 --> 00:16:13.106 this is what we do, we're all blokes, we'll have this banter and 260 00:16:13.128 --> 00:16:16.118 you have to just put up with it. Was that kind of the attitude? Yeah. 261 00:16:16.284 --> 00:16:19.862 And it was, I have banter now in the office 262 00:16:19.916 --> 00:16:23.494 and I can give as good as I get, really with it, 263 00:16:23.612 --> 00:16:26.600 I'm not afraid, but it's when 264 00:16:27.530 --> 00:16:30.680 you don't expect it from day one sort of thing. And 265 00:16:33.530 --> 00:16:37.338 it was just really because they're a very well respected company and it 266 00:16:37.344 --> 00:16:41.194 just threw me. And going into a smaller company, I 267 00:16:41.232 --> 00:16:45.018 always thought that I've always worked for big companies. I was with Thomas Cook 268 00:16:45.034 --> 00:16:48.878 before and I was with large corporate companies and I always thought they were 269 00:16:48.884 --> 00:16:52.334 the best ones to go down to get the experience and the 270 00:16:52.372 --> 00:16:56.002 training, which you do. But joining a smaller company, 271 00:16:56.056 --> 00:16:59.714 I feel like now I've got more influence in their culture, I 272 00:16:59.752 --> 00:17:03.534 can impact what their decisions are going to be regarding diversity 273 00:17:03.582 --> 00:17:07.000 and inclusion. Our office 274 00:17:07.450 --> 00:17:11.106 is very diverse and it's 275 00:17:11.138 --> 00:17:14.934 lovely to work in with a team that is so diverse and so 276 00:17:14.972 --> 00:17:18.614 different and we work a lot well together. We are 277 00:17:18.652 --> 00:17:21.958 so different, a lot of us, that that works better. I feel like we've got 278 00:17:21.964 --> 00:17:25.146 people at one end of the spectrum to the other and we just sort of 279 00:17:25.248 --> 00:17:28.380 fill up the gaps in the middle and work as a cohesive team. 280 00:17:28.990 --> 00:17:32.838 And what was nice with this company while I was with 281 00:17:32.864 --> 00:17:35.934 my previous company, there were so many events that I wanted to go on. 282 00:17:36.132 --> 00:17:39.966 Sorry, turn this on silent. There 283 00:17:39.988 --> 00:17:43.634 were lots of diversity events that I wish I could have gone on, but 284 00:17:43.752 --> 00:17:47.326 they wouldn't allow me to. Being corporate 285 00:17:47.358 --> 00:17:50.706 companies trying to put claims through for finance takes weeks and 286 00:17:50.728 --> 00:17:53.860 weeks. Whereas here 287 00:17:54.310 --> 00:17:57.794 there is a Diversity in tech. Conference in London for two 288 00:17:57.832 --> 00:18:01.670 days. And I was like, you know what? I really want to go because 289 00:18:01.820 --> 00:18:05.442 I think I come from recruitment for Pas, where it's predominantly female. 290 00:18:05.506 --> 00:18:08.918 And if you dare to put a male PA in front of someone, 291 00:18:09.084 --> 00:18:12.860 the hiring manager was like, oh, I don't know if I want that. 292 00:18:13.310 --> 00:18:16.570 And then going to the other end where it's predominantly 293 00:18:16.910 --> 00:18:20.606 male people working in the environment. But when I got into the 294 00:18:20.628 --> 00:18:24.234 depths of it and started speaking to LGBT 295 00:18:24.282 --> 00:18:27.806 leaders within tech companies, they were 296 00:18:27.828 --> 00:18:31.534 like, we struggle really to bring on more people 297 00:18:31.572 --> 00:18:35.326 that come from our community because they don't feel that technology is 298 00:18:35.348 --> 00:18:38.660 the right industry for them. They don't have 299 00:18:39.030 --> 00:18:42.594 the people in the public eye that are fighting for those rights in that 300 00:18:42.632 --> 00:18:46.114 industry. They don't have people they can look up to in the industry, and that's 301 00:18:46.162 --> 00:18:49.702 where they really struggle. So you mentioned 302 00:18:49.836 --> 00:18:53.394 about the fact that the previous role 303 00:18:53.522 --> 00:18:57.218 were mainly PA and stereotypical 304 00:18:57.394 --> 00:19:00.922 gender expectation would be a female person doing that role. And you're in a tech 305 00:19:00.976 --> 00:19:04.742 world now, and the assumption would be it's more male bias role. 306 00:19:04.886 --> 00:19:08.634 So do you have challenges in trying to change 307 00:19:08.672 --> 00:19:12.314 people's perceptions about candidates? How do you encourage 308 00:19:12.362 --> 00:19:16.206 more women to apply? How do you encourage more employers to actually hire the 309 00:19:16.228 --> 00:19:19.806 women that do apply? Yeah, so for 310 00:19:19.828 --> 00:19:23.338 me, the little things, my LinkedIn profile, 311 00:19:23.514 --> 00:19:27.298 I've got my flags on it, I have my pronouns on it, I have 312 00:19:27.304 --> 00:19:30.866 that on my signature as well. And the amount of companies that have 313 00:19:30.888 --> 00:19:34.194 approached me directly on LinkedIn because I have my flags on my 314 00:19:34.232 --> 00:19:37.614 profile. There aren't that many openly gay 315 00:19:37.662 --> 00:19:41.366 recruiters out there. And the fact that you're so passionate about it 316 00:19:41.388 --> 00:19:45.126 and you're so open about it is fantastic. And we want a 317 00:19:45.148 --> 00:19:48.890 recruiter that is like that, that will attract more candidates 318 00:19:49.710 --> 00:19:53.354 from your own community, so people know. They can trust 319 00:19:53.392 --> 00:19:56.586 you with their identity, so come to you. And 320 00:19:56.608 --> 00:20:00.060 they don't have to out themselves, they just be themselves. 321 00:20:01.710 --> 00:20:05.242 It's weird. I've had HR managers and directors 322 00:20:05.306 --> 00:20:08.446 email me back saying, what does he and him mean on your 323 00:20:08.468 --> 00:20:12.318 signature? I'm like you work in HR. I didn't say that 324 00:20:12.324 --> 00:20:16.094 to him. But I'm thinking, really, I 325 00:20:16.132 --> 00:20:19.874 think as recruiters, we probably got one of the biggest platforms to make change 326 00:20:19.992 --> 00:20:23.262 in trying to build more diverse pools of candidates, 327 00:20:23.326 --> 00:20:26.962 because internal recruiters, they sometimes 328 00:20:27.016 --> 00:20:30.150 don't have as much time as what we do to spend time with the candidates. 329 00:20:30.810 --> 00:20:34.614 So with my job adverts, I will tend to put three or four different job 330 00:20:34.652 --> 00:20:38.314 adverts up for the same job to try and attract different people 331 00:20:38.352 --> 00:20:41.974 from different backgrounds, identities, genders, 332 00:20:42.102 --> 00:20:45.786 because you do. You read things differently and 333 00:20:45.888 --> 00:20:49.130 you are attracted to certain words in a job advert 334 00:20:49.710 --> 00:20:53.422 and you are attracted to certain benefits that some 335 00:20:53.476 --> 00:20:57.230 people like the nicer, as they say, like the fluffier benefits, 336 00:20:57.300 --> 00:21:01.086 like the working from home and the cycle to 337 00:21:01.108 --> 00:21:04.754 work schemes and the childcare vouchers and things like that. Other 338 00:21:04.792 --> 00:21:08.420 people don't really know about that. And I think 339 00:21:09.430 --> 00:21:13.218 the different adverts also brings in people from different ages as well. So 340 00:21:13.304 --> 00:21:16.774 it helps on that area of diversity to make sure you're not. Is that 341 00:21:16.812 --> 00:21:20.598 something you've initiated or was that a company thing? Anyway, how did you 342 00:21:20.604 --> 00:21:23.000 go about implementing those? That was me. 343 00:21:25.370 --> 00:21:29.126 I started to look at job adverts and which ones I 344 00:21:29.148 --> 00:21:32.978 would apply for and where I would apply to them and then sort of 345 00:21:33.004 --> 00:21:36.554 spoke to my colleagues and said, right, these are the job adverts. Which one 346 00:21:36.592 --> 00:21:40.362 would you sort of apply for and why? And we were all getting 347 00:21:40.496 --> 00:21:43.902 the same. Yes, predominantly the ladies in the office were 348 00:21:43.956 --> 00:21:47.770 going for this job advert because of the word in, because of the additional 349 00:21:47.850 --> 00:21:51.566 benefits. And then I started to look at 350 00:21:51.588 --> 00:21:55.426 candidate CVS and how they sort 351 00:21:55.448 --> 00:21:59.266 of differentiate as well and what 352 00:21:59.288 --> 00:22:01.380 I did find as well with 353 00:22:02.870 --> 00:22:06.646 the male female gender CVS, yes, they 354 00:22:06.668 --> 00:22:10.440 were different, but then when I would be speaking to a game now, 355 00:22:11.130 --> 00:22:14.614 theirs would be slightly different again. And I 356 00:22:14.652 --> 00:22:17.400 would ask them because I 357 00:22:18.330 --> 00:22:22.134 feel that putting the things you're interested not the things you're interested 358 00:22:22.172 --> 00:22:25.622 in, but if you're involved with some groups at the university, if it's an LGBT 359 00:22:25.686 --> 00:22:29.386 group, a lot of them wouldn't put that on their CV and you 360 00:22:29.408 --> 00:22:32.538 wouldn't be able to tell that they were by looking at the CV and know 361 00:22:32.544 --> 00:22:34.926 if they were gay or not. Anyway. But it was only when you called them 362 00:22:34.948 --> 00:22:38.446 and spoke to them and I started to ask them more questions 363 00:22:38.628 --> 00:22:42.446 and then you'd be like, okay. And 364 00:22:42.468 --> 00:22:45.406 they'd be like me, look, I am gay. They'd come out to me over the 365 00:22:45.428 --> 00:22:48.238 phone and say, look, the only reason I'm telling you is because I know you're 366 00:22:48.244 --> 00:22:50.734 not going to judge me and I know you're not going to feel it makes 367 00:22:50.772 --> 00:22:54.346 a difference. Of course it's not. I'm not going to put on your CV. 368 00:22:54.458 --> 00:22:58.086 This is the gay candidate. I stopped putting names on 369 00:22:58.108 --> 00:23:01.686 CVS as well with clients that I 370 00:23:01.708 --> 00:23:04.390 knew were gender bias. 371 00:23:05.530 --> 00:23:08.118 So I stopped all that and said, right, you know what? You're not going to 372 00:23:08.124 --> 00:23:11.960 find out what their name is. They didn't like it to start with. 373 00:23:12.430 --> 00:23:15.466 I said, well, this is how I'm going to work and if you don't want 374 00:23:15.488 --> 00:23:19.322 to work that way, then fine, but this is important 375 00:23:19.376 --> 00:23:21.962 to me and this is what I feel like. You need to make the small 376 00:23:22.016 --> 00:23:25.726 changes I did and they were happy with that. It was interesting what you 377 00:23:25.748 --> 00:23:29.182 said when you looked at the CVS. You could tell there was a different 378 00:23:29.236 --> 00:23:32.978 voice in the CVS you're reading. And I've 379 00:23:32.984 --> 00:23:36.690 see some studies on this where if you anonymize CVS, 380 00:23:37.510 --> 00:23:41.122 people tend to still prefer the male voice in many 381 00:23:41.176 --> 00:23:44.414 roles, even women tend to prefer the male 382 00:23:44.462 --> 00:23:47.746 CV. So it's really hard when we talk 383 00:23:47.768 --> 00:23:51.526 about anonymisation of content and data and 384 00:23:51.548 --> 00:23:55.238 CVS because what you end up doing is you end 385 00:23:55.244 --> 00:23:58.954 up stripping all your USP away. What makes you 386 00:23:58.992 --> 00:24:01.994 you can no longer sell you you have to sell this 387 00:24:02.032 --> 00:24:05.370 sanitised robot which 388 00:24:05.520 --> 00:24:09.162 HR recruitment should be about people. You hiring people, 389 00:24:09.296 --> 00:24:13.098 but people brings in bias. As soon as you got biases, we 390 00:24:13.104 --> 00:24:16.766 either like you or we don't like you. So if you're a likeable person, you 391 00:24:16.788 --> 00:24:20.254 actually want that positive bias where you're less 392 00:24:20.292 --> 00:24:24.030 typical, you don't want to suffer the negative bias. We all want to win 393 00:24:24.100 --> 00:24:25.490 by having good bias. 394 00:24:27.750 --> 00:24:31.390 How do you rationalise that then, when you've got different job specs, which is fantastic, 395 00:24:31.470 --> 00:24:34.580 I love people that do that, but how do you try and 396 00:24:35.190 --> 00:24:38.886 get CVS through that, obviously in a different tone? Yeah, 397 00:24:38.988 --> 00:24:42.754 well, my CVS are basic, they're formatted 398 00:24:42.802 --> 00:24:46.566 the same way, so I will get someone's CV and put it in the 399 00:24:46.588 --> 00:24:50.300 format I was taught so they all look the same to start up anyway. 400 00:24:51.550 --> 00:24:55.066 I will get them to write a personal sort of 401 00:24:55.088 --> 00:24:58.886