Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host
Joanne Lockwood: for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be
Joanne Lockwood: interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation
Joanne Lockwood: around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making
Joanne Lockwood: the world a better place for everyone to thrive in. If you'd like to join
Joanne Lockwood: me in the future, then please do drop me a line to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: You'll be able to catch up with all of the shows on itunes,
Joanne Lockwood: Spotify and all the usual places. So plug in your
Joanne Lockwood: headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going.
Joanne Lockwood: Today is episode five with the title
Joanne Lockwood: Swimming Upstream Against The Flow, and I have
Joanne Lockwood: the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Lewis
Joanne Lockwood: Bell-Cawthra. I recently met Lewis online via
Joanne Lockwood: LinkedIn just prior to the lockdown and we seemed to hit it off straight
Joanne Lockwood: away. Lewis is a principal consultant and recruitment
Joanne Lockwood: manager who is currently on furlough. He advocates for
Joanne Lockwood: LGBTQ rights, along with trying to create a more inclusive
Joanne Lockwood: space in the tech and recruitment world. So I asked
Joanne Lockwood: Lewis to describe his passion and he said giving
Joanne Lockwood: people a voice. Hello, Lewis,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: welcome to the show. When did you first realise
Joanne Lockwood: you had been swimming upstream against the flow?
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Hi, Jo, thank you so much for having me today.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I guess for me, I kind of first
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: realised when I first started recruitment, actually
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: previously to that I was working in an industry that was very
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: inclusive and very accepting. So I was in the travel industry
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: for about ten years. I kind of went in the travel
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: industry to escape and get away from everything and
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I became a holiday rep. And most people do say that if you become a
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: holiday rep, you're going to escape or run away from something. And I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: was kind of going to run away from myself and not wanting to be
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: gay and not wanting to be something that wasn't the norm.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: So even from being a holiday rep, I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: knew I wasn't going in the same direction as everybody wanted me to go in,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: as society would want me to. But I felt that the
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: travel industry was so accepting and it didn't matter who you were, what you
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: were and what you believed in, you could just be yourself. It wasn't really until
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: then. I came back to the UK and then went into the
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: corporate world and started working in recruitment and then see
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: a totally different way of being treated because I was
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: gay. I guess the first sort
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: of small things after a few weeks of being in the
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: office and my manager asked me why I never told her I was
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: gay during my interview process. And that raised
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: the lion bells for me straight
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: into, it doesn't matter if I was gay, I didn't need to go into an
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: interview and say, hi, I'm Lewis, I'm gay. Like, I wouldn't expect them to say
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: hi, I'm such and such. I'm straight. It's not something that gets
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: brought up into conversation. Was this in the Dark Ages?
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, back in the 18 hundreds? No, this is kind of no, this is
Joanne Lockwood: recently. When was I I started in
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: 2015,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: five years ago.
Joanne Lockwood: So we're not talking about a lifetime ago. This is recent history. You
Joanne Lockwood: were still asked about why you hadn't told.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: So yeah, it was a bit strange. I kind of let it go, thinking,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: do you know what? Right? I'm new to a business,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I don't feel like I should bring this should bring it up as a problem,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: so I just carried on as normal. I am
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: a massive football fan and I love football,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: but the office didn't invite me to watch football
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: matches because they didn't assume I liked football because I was gay as
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: well. And that kind
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: of annoyed me more because that was something that
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: liking football has got nothing to do with being gay or anything anyway. So it
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: was kind of, I can't enjoy a passion of
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: mine because I'm gay. And that was when I kind of questioned
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: it and my questions were ignored.
Joanne Lockwood: Okay, so what did they assume you would like doing?
Joanne Lockwood: Karaoke, bars, naba or something? Was it.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I didn't really ask. I was just like, okay. And the thing is, I didn't
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: want to say anything. It was only because I spoke to all my colleague and
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: they asked me if I was going to the match and I went, oh, I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: didn't get like, I'm
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: not going to say anything. Everybody, all the lads in the office got invited apart
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: from me. And then they said something in the office in
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: front of everybody and said, look, why aren't you inviting Lewis? And then someone piled
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: up saying, why would he like football?
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: It was just a bit of was. It an all male environment?
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: No, predominantly, I probably
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: say it was about 70%
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: male, 30% female. So they didn't invade the women
Joanne Lockwood: to the football either, then? It was kind of
Joanne Lockwood: male guy bro thing. They were the only ones allowed to
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: go. So then I was like, you know what,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: if I left, it'd be like I'm running away from it and not
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: tackling it head on. I need to do
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: something about this to try and change the way that people
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: are treated, because I'm quite a strong person. If there was
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: somebody else that probably wasn't as strong as me, they probably would have just walked
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: away and thought, you know what, the recruitment industry isn't for me.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I'm going to get treated differently because I am gay, so
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: let's find another industry. And I was like, no, I'm going to continue
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: doing it. Luckily, there was another
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: gay guy that worked in another office near to me for the same company.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: So I kind of just reached out to him just to see how he got
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: on with things. He recruited into quite a male dominated
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: industry as well, so he kind of had to tackle that.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Whereas for me, I recruited into a dominantly female
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: industry. I recruited originally for
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Pas secretaries, office managers,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: which is obviously totally different to what I do now. So
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I use my recruitment platform to try and educate not just my
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: office, but to try and actually get people in
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Devon and CEO to actually start discussing
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: diversity and inclusion. And it's not just a tick box to have on
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: an application form, and it's not just a quota that they need to
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: fulfil to make themselves feel a bit better,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: which the impression I was getting from them.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: So I first thought, you know, what, the biggest platform for me
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: that I could probably get involved with in Exeter, where I can
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: influence businesses more, was to become a trustee for Exeter
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Pride. So I signed up for that, became
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: their communications manager, had
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: no idea, if I'm honest, what I was doing, but
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I kind of enjoyed those challenges more than going into a challenge where I know
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: exactly what I'm supposed to be doing. I don't feel I learn as much if
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I go straight in and do what I'm supposed to do sort of
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: thing. I joined Extra Pride.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I was lucky enough then to be able to go out to businesses and
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: explain what Extra Pride was and the need for it and the
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: understanding of it and how they can get involved and make a
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: difference. This then opened up more avenues for the charities that
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: we were working alongside as well. I was able to go out
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: to schools and do story times with them and then give
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: them an understanding of what Pride was and actually get to ask the kids
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: what they thought Pride was about. And that was actually really
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: good to understand that and to see what impression they had, to see if
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: their parents were actually educating them at home as well. Because I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: know a lot of my friends are teachers and they spend so much time trying
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: to educate the children in school, it's when they leave school
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and go home and then normal society changes
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: everything they've learned in school and said, no, you're a boy, you must
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: do that. Or if you're gay, then you're not going
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: to be able to go down this avenue for your career and things like that.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I spent the first year working with Extra Pride.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I got my company that I worked for to sponsor it as well,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: to try and change the way that they thought about
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: it. So is that the same company where you weren't invited to the
Joanne Lockwood: football, so you were starting to bring change already into that environment?
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I wasn't doing it. I don't think you can make change overnight and I don't
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: think you need to throw it in somebody's face. I think it just needs to
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: be gradual. And it was the little things like
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I put flags up in the office during sort of Pride
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Month and things like that.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: We would do like a lunch and learn and I would talk more about
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: diversity and inclusion in general, just to give them more of an
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: understanding of it. One of the events that
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I did with extra pride. We go to UK Pom, which is the
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: UK Pride Organisations Network, and there's an organisation
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: you're probably aware of called My Umbrella. And they gave us a
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: talk and they gave us lots of documents and flyers and posters that we
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: could use to put around the office, just to give people more of an
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: understanding of the way people identify
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: the different flags and what they represent. So just putting them up in the Office
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: started to make a little bit of a
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: kind of I did a lot of work, obviously, as I said, with
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: diversity at that current company. I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: was really heavily involved with the local PA network
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and they were very much trying to push it so I can go out and
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: talk to big bosses about inclusion, diversity and trying to use
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: their platform to extend mine as well. And
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: then I was probably with the company for about two
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: years, and then we were on a night out and
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: it was probably the first time in about five or six
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: years I've ever had homophobic
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: abuse thrown at me. Now,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: obviously, I know we're using words
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: now to keep in the past
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: been used negatively. Obviously, the word queer,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: for me, that word has always been a negative because it was what I was
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: bullied with and that was what I was thrown at. There's words
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: that people don't like that I find more accepting, because that's just
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: how I perceived it when I was younger. But, yeah, I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: was on a night out and someone I worked with shouted and called
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: me a dirty queer and went to punch me.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: And because the leaders watched
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: it and pulled away and told me to ignore
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: it, I was like, yeah, this isn't for me.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I went to HR and I was kind of
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: forced into not taking my complaint further
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: because they said it would be too much
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: involvement with the rest of the Office and it would bring up
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: bad memories for everybody as well. It
Joanne Lockwood: put a dark moment on the whole evening for everybody to do it. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: you felt that you had to suppress that and there was no
Joanne Lockwood: support, there was no understanding of what you. Went
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: through, there was no support. It was kind
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: of, yes, HR spoke to me and they came to the Office and we had
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: a chat and they would have probably pursued it,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: but my director, no,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: let's sort this out outside of disciplinary, let's try and get it, let's
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: just get them to apologise to you. I think
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: at that time anyway, my mind was probably made up. I was
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: going to leave, so I was like you know what? Which I do regret now
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I probably thought I probably should pursue this because it may have made a difference
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and made changes in the future so
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I left and it was
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: weird. The next sort of interviews that I had, I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: purposely made them aware I was gay. During interview,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: it kind of changed, which is strange,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: but it kind of just came into conversation. When they asked me about my
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: interests and what I did, I thought, well, maybe I need to then,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: because obviously in my last employer, they felt it was a bit of an issue.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I didn't so I brought it up in conversation
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: it was just by chance I just said oh I help out of extra pride
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I'm getting married to I told him my husband's
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: name to be in a few months time and they were like
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: yeah great. And it was fine, absolutely fine and it
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: changed my whole perception of recruitment
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: companies.
Joanne Lockwood: So by telling people up front did you feel like you had to, you wanted
Joanne Lockwood: to or you did? It almost like trying to
Joanne Lockwood: prevent a problem in the future what was the motivation? You felt comfortable doing it
Joanne Lockwood: or you felt pressured into it?
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Probably I felt I had to do it because I didn't want to.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: It's weird isn't it? Because
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: whatever you identify as. But I do feel like every time I go into
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: a new environment, I got to come out all over again.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: You have to. And this may come across the wrong way, but
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I'm not always the typical as people will say, like,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: you don't look gay. And I'm like, okay, I'll put a flag on my
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: head. I love that. Okay so
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: sometimes it is harder because then I've got because they're asking me like questions
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: like oh have you got a girlfriend? And now I've got a boyfriend or got
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: a husband that's what I'll be like now but I want to prevent that. I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: don't want that awkwardness. And then sometimes I can be
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: a bit like I like to play and they're trying to guess if I'm gay
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: or not. And I'm not telling them I'm the same partner just
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: because I sometimes find it funny with some of my colleagues when they first start.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: But when I first went into my new
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: business, I felt I just thought, you know what? Let's just be out and open
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: with them from day. One, and it won't make a difference
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: because it shouldn't do. If it does make a difference, then they're not the right
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: company for me. So, yeah, I just felt like it would be
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: easier in the long run to prevent any awkward conversations in the
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: future. And they
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: were interested that they asked me more about what DIVIDEX surprise and
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: how they can get. Involved more we're
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: very small companies and like twelve of us so they don't have any
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: sort of inclusion officers and things like that within the company. So
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: it was kind of interesting for them to learn more from me. So if you
Joanne Lockwood: compare the two organisations, then, so the first one, where
Joanne Lockwood: you felt discriminated against, you were bullied, you had an
Joanne Lockwood: incident compared with the second one. What was the
Joanne Lockwood: difference in culture? How did the organisations
Joanne Lockwood: differ in how that culture evolved? I mean, what can you say?
Joanne Lockwood: What was it? I think with the new company,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: there was no sort of hierarchy, there was no sort of level of
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: seniority within the business. It was just very much open door policy and
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: everybody was everybody. You knew everyone from day one.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: It just felt a lot more welcoming. The other
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: company is very much more corporate, very process driven.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: It just felt a lot more relaxed. Where I went to now,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: would you. Say that the first organisation was more institutionalised
Joanne Lockwood: homophobia? It was kind of almost like, it's okay,
Joanne Lockwood: this is what we do, we're all blokes, we'll have this banter and
Joanne Lockwood: you have to just put up with it. Was that kind of the attitude? Yeah.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: And it was, I have banter now in the office
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and I can give as good as I get, really with it,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I'm not afraid, but it's when
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: you don't expect it from day one sort of thing. And
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: it was just really because they're a very well respected company and it
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: just threw me. And going into a smaller company, I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: always thought that I've always worked for big companies. I was with Thomas Cook
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: before and I was with large corporate companies and I always thought they were
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: the best ones to go down to get the experience and the
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: training, which you do. But joining a smaller company,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I feel like now I've got more influence in their culture, I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: can impact what their decisions are going to be regarding diversity
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and inclusion. Our office
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: is very diverse and it's
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: lovely to work in with a team that is so diverse and so
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: different and we work a lot well together. We are
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: so different, a lot of us, that that works better. I feel like we've got
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: people at one end of the spectrum to the other and we just sort of
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: fill up the gaps in the middle and work as a cohesive team.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: And what was nice with this company while I was with
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: my previous company, there were so many events that I wanted to go on.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Sorry, turn this on silent. There
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: were lots of diversity events that I wish I could have gone on, but
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: they wouldn't allow me to. Being corporate
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: companies trying to put claims through for finance takes weeks and
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: weeks. Whereas here
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: there is a Diversity in tech. Conference in London for two
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: days. And I was like, you know what? I really want to go because
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I think I come from recruitment for Pas, where it's predominantly female.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: And if you dare to put a male PA in front of someone,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: the hiring manager was like, oh, I don't know if I want that.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: And then going to the other end where it's predominantly
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: male people working in the environment. But when I got into the
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: depths of it and started speaking to LGBT
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: leaders within tech companies, they were
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: like, we struggle really to bring on more people
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: that come from our community because they don't feel that technology is
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: the right industry for them. They don't have
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: the people in the public eye that are fighting for those rights in that
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: industry. They don't have people they can look up to in the industry, and that's
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: where they really struggle. So you mentioned
Joanne Lockwood: about the fact that the previous role
Joanne Lockwood: were mainly PA and stereotypical
Joanne Lockwood: gender expectation would be a female person doing that role. And you're in a tech
Joanne Lockwood: world now, and the assumption would be it's more male bias role.
Joanne Lockwood: So do you have challenges in trying to change
Joanne Lockwood: people's perceptions about candidates? How do you encourage
Joanne Lockwood: more women to apply? How do you encourage more employers to actually hire the
Joanne Lockwood: women that do apply? Yeah, so for
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: me, the little things, my LinkedIn profile,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I've got my flags on it, I have my pronouns on it, I have
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: that on my signature as well. And the amount of companies that have
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: approached me directly on LinkedIn because I have my flags on my
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: profile. There aren't that many openly gay
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: recruiters out there. And the fact that you're so passionate about it
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and you're so open about it is fantastic. And we want a
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: recruiter that is like that, that will attract more candidates
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: from your own community, so people know. They can trust
Joanne Lockwood: you with their identity, so come to you. And
Joanne Lockwood: they don't have to out themselves, they just be themselves.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: It's weird. I've had HR managers and directors
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: email me back saying, what does he and him mean on your
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: signature? I'm like you work in HR. I didn't say that
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: to him. But I'm thinking, really, I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: think as recruiters, we probably got one of the biggest platforms to make change
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: in trying to build more diverse pools of candidates,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: because internal recruiters, they sometimes
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: don't have as much time as what we do to spend time with the candidates.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: So with my job adverts, I will tend to put three or four different job
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: adverts up for the same job to try and attract different people
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: from different backgrounds, identities, genders,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: because you do. You read things differently and
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: you are attracted to certain words in a job advert
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and you are attracted to certain benefits that some
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: people like the nicer, as they say, like the fluffier benefits,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: like the working from home and the cycle to
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: work schemes and the childcare vouchers and things like that. Other
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: people don't really know about that. And I think
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: the different adverts also brings in people from different ages as well. So
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: it helps on that area of diversity to make sure you're not. Is that
Joanne Lockwood: something you've initiated or was that a company thing? Anyway, how did you
Joanne Lockwood: go about implementing those? That was me.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I started to look at job adverts and which ones I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: would apply for and where I would apply to them and then sort of
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: spoke to my colleagues and said, right, these are the job adverts. Which one
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: would you sort of apply for and why? And we were all getting
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: the same. Yes, predominantly the ladies in the office were
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: going for this job advert because of the word in, because of the additional
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: benefits. And then I started to look at
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: candidate CVS and how they sort
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: of differentiate as well and what
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I did find as well with
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: the male female gender CVS, yes, they
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: were different, but then when I would be speaking to a game now,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: theirs would be slightly different again. And I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: would ask them because I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: feel that putting the things you're interested not the things you're interested
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: in, but if you're involved with some groups at the university, if it's an LGBT
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: group, a lot of them wouldn't put that on their CV and you
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: wouldn't be able to tell that they were by looking at the CV and know
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: if they were gay or not. Anyway. But it was only when you called them
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and spoke to them and I started to ask them more questions
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and then you'd be like, okay. And
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: they'd be like me, look, I am gay. They'd come out to me over the
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: phone and say, look, the only reason I'm telling you is because I know you're
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: not going to judge me and I know you're not going to feel it makes
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: a difference. Of course it's not. I'm not going to put on your CV.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: This is the gay candidate. I stopped putting names on
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: CVS as well with clients that I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: knew were gender bias.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: So I stopped all that and said, right, you know what? You're not going to
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: find out what their name is. They didn't like it to start with.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I said, well, this is how I'm going to work and if you don't want
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: to work that way, then fine, but this is important
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: to me and this is what I feel like. You need to make the small
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: changes I did and they were happy with that. It was interesting what you
Joanne Lockwood: said when you looked at the CVS. You could tell there was a different
Joanne Lockwood: voice in the CVS you're reading. And I've
Joanne Lockwood: see some studies on this where if you anonymize CVS,
Joanne Lockwood: people tend to still prefer the male voice in many
Joanne Lockwood: roles, even women tend to prefer the male
Joanne Lockwood: CV. So it's really hard when we talk
Joanne Lockwood: about anonymisation of content and data and
Joanne Lockwood: CVS because what you end up doing is you end
Joanne Lockwood: up stripping all your USP away. What makes you
Joanne Lockwood: you can no longer sell you you have to sell this
Joanne Lockwood: sanitised robot which
Joanne Lockwood: HR recruitment should be about people. You hiring people,
Joanne Lockwood: but people brings in bias. As soon as you got biases, we
Joanne Lockwood: either like you or we don't like you. So if you're a likeable person, you
Joanne Lockwood: actually want that positive bias where you're less
Joanne Lockwood: typical, you don't want to suffer the negative bias. We all want to win
Joanne Lockwood: by having good bias.
Joanne Lockwood: How do you rationalise that then, when you've got different job specs, which is fantastic,
Joanne Lockwood: I love people that do that, but how do you try and
Joanne Lockwood: get CVS through that, obviously in a different tone? Yeah,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: well, my CVS are basic, they're formatted
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: the same way, so I will get someone's CV and put it in the
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: format I was taught so they all look the same to start up anyway.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I will get them to write a personal sort of
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: overview or a covering letter as such, but quite a small one to put attached
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: to the CV, make the CV look as
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: possible. But what I tend to do with all my clients anyway,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: as soon as I send the CV over, I will call up my client and
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: then speak to them over the phone about the candidate. Because
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I know that I'm better in person or speaking than I am
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: putting stuff to paper that's just me as a person. And I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: know that I can describe a candidate a lot better over the phone and I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: can get very passionate about it over the phone. Trying to bring across
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: passion sometimes on a CV is quite difficult,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: unless obviously when you go into creative market with marketing
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and developers like front End and UX designers, they can make their CVS
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: look beautiful and look very attractive. But I think
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Bestly with some developers, their CVS can be
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: very much quite straight to the
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: point list of experience that they have got. But I feel like using
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: my voice to actually describe those candidates over the phone is a
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: lot better than just sending a CV over. So you're
Joanne Lockwood: brokering you're wellbeing, aren't you? You're brokering that person and saying,
Joanne Lockwood: I've spoken to this person, this person sounds fantastic. So you're literally bigging
Joanne Lockwood: them up and creating this persona for them? Yeah,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and that's the best thing. It's no different to when I used to sell
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: holidays. I couldn't sell a holiday. I could send them an email with some nice
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: photos on. But me actually speaking to them and saying, look, I've been to that
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: country. It's fantastic. You can do this there, you can do this there. You'll
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: get this when you go to this pub or hotel, whatever.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: And it's the same when you're trying to sell in person, in theory.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: And I'll try and do as many interviews we can because
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: obviously we recruit globally, so it's quite difficult to meet people in person.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: So it's all done via zoom and Skype and hangouts and stuff like that.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: And I will make sure that every candidate that I speak with that we do
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: over zoom to start with, or at least the second call is so I can
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: get more of an understanding of their personality and how they're going to
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: come across as well on a zoom call.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: But, yeah, my companies that we're at now,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: that they've really let me explore diversity more within the tech
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: space. The tech conference I went to about diversity was
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: phenomenal. What was really not
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: surprising, but it made a lot of sense, is obviously these new
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: tech companies, likes of Deliveroo
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and Uber Airbnb and things like that, they're not
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: having to change their culture because their culture has been set like this from day
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: one. So they're kind of leading the way and then you've
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: got the big banks or some of the big corporate companies
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: who have been going for many, many years, and those are the ones that are
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: having to change their culture totally.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: It's a whole new fill game for them. So they're really
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: interested in speaking to people like me when I speak to them on the phone.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: If I'm trying to do new business, I will bring up diversity
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: probably within the first five minutes of the conversation,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: just to find out what their views are of it.
Joanne Lockwood: Have you ever walked away? Have you ever said, no, I can't help you?
Joanne Lockwood: Someone says, I'm looking for a young girl,
Joanne Lockwood: 20s, been to a red brick
Joanne Lockwood: university. Must be attractive.
Joanne Lockwood: Do you still get wrecked like that? Yeah,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: especially where I'm from. It's beautiful. Devon is
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: lovely, but we are a little bit behind
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: in the time. They don't mean
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: it offensively, they just. Say they just create this picture in their head of their
Joanne Lockwood: ideal candidate.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: But on the flip side now as well, I've had clients
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: say to me, right, I would like you to get me a lesbian.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: How am I going to do that then? I can see some
Joanne Lockwood: advantages in that personally, but, yeah, I don't know, I'd ask for it in that
Joanne Lockwood: way, so. It'S like, right, okay, I'll see what I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: can do. Okay. But no,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: before I walk away, I'll try and say, look, I'm not going to do that
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: for you. I will get you the right person for it.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: And I try and make sure that
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: if I send them four CVS, I'll try and do a 50 50 split.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: We sort of male to female ratio, but as
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I said, I try not to put the names on it. The
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: university side of things, I think
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: companies, they're moving away from it now
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: slightly. Yes. A lot of them will ask for red
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: brick universities and that's going to take a while, I believe, for
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: them to change the way that they're recruiting.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: But I think if I walk away, it'd be no different to be walking away
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and giving up. And if I can influence a business to change
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: their recruitment process, then I will stay and plug away at
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: them and. Just try and get them to change it. So you would say
Joanne Lockwood: that people are receptive to
Joanne Lockwood: diversity, to inclusion, to looking at candidates from all
Joanne Lockwood: backgrounds? I'm not saying
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: all clients are no, without a doubt, I'm not going to agree that not all
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: clients are, but there
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: are clients that I have said no to and I won't work with them,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and mainly because they've got offices in certain countries where
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: it's illegal to be gay. So I cannot physically
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: recruit for those companies, because if you can't be
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: yourself, then there's no point in doing anything,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: really. So I don't work with those
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: companies and I've told them that and I've been upfront and blunt
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: with them and they've we do really appreciate
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: like most. Companies in that position are almost ashamed if they're
Joanne Lockwood: UK based anyway, aren't they? They almost say, Look, I'm really sorry, but I know
Joanne Lockwood: we've got an office in Saudi or Middle East
Joanne Lockwood: or in Russia, I know we can't recruit openly
Joanne Lockwood: LGBT people in those territories. I wish we could, but we
Joanne Lockwood: can't. And it's a real moral dilemma where. You it is, yeah.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: And I know that some of the big companies, they're doing stuff abroad to try
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and make it more inclusive, to try and tackle it and help it and brilliant,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: that's fantastic, but they can do that. But for me,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I want to recruit into companies where no matter
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: where you work in the world or what division you're in,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: what industry, what sector, it doesn't matter
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: if you're gay, you don't have to walk in and come out. I love
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: the internal networks that are being set up. I think that's phenomenal,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: the LGBT internal networks, plus the allies and things like that.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: There are companies that are leading the way on that and I think that is
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: fantastic to have. I think having an ally for
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: me would have been fantastic when I was at my previous
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: recruitment company, because knowing I could go to someone if I did
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: feel a little bit disrespected
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: or a bit homophobic, abuse was sent towards me. I had someone I could
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: go to. And I think that does help a lot of people come
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: out. And I'll support the ally scheme as much as I can
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: as well. We're a small company, but all my
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: colleagues say that they're allies and they will
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: continue to support me and back me with what I want to
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: do. We do training now. Well, not at the
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: moment, but every Thursday we do a training morning and
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: it's usually on something tech. I tend not
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: to, because I will do it on diversity and inclusion
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and I will try and educate them on the updates on that side of it
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and make it a bit more interactive and then go through any awkward questions that
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: they have got that they feel worried about asking,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: especially when it comes down to gender. I'm still learning
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: a lot of it as well, because it's a learning curve for everybody.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I don't think everybody knows the right way to say things or to
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: approach things at the moment anyway. It's just we're all trying to educate each
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: other, I think, the likes of people like me and
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: yourself, that will educate people, and I don't get
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: offended if somebody asks me a question that I know could
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: offend somebody. That makes sense. Yeah. I'll quite
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: happily just probably not the right way of asking
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: it. My boss has said some things in the past that
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I know he doesn't mean it, but I'll say, look, this is really how you
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: should be questioning opening up this conversation. If you're going to say it to anybody
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: else, use this word, this tone of voice, this
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: pronoun instead.
Joanne Lockwood: That's a good thing if you're an ally, an advocate, even if you're in the
Joanne Lockwood: LGBT community yourself, there's still people out there that need to be educated.
Joanne Lockwood: And I always approach the world with an educational slant, if I
Joanne Lockwood: can, first, because I think as soon as you detach, switch
Joanne Lockwood: off, argue, get offended, you lose the opportunity to educate.
Joanne Lockwood: But sometimes it's exhausting. I'm sure you find that it's
Joanne Lockwood: like, here we go again. I've got to explain about this
Joanne Lockwood: one more time.
Joanne Lockwood: My other half is a man. And yes, if we want children,
Joanne Lockwood: we'll have children, and we can do that. It's amazing. It's amazing what we can
Joanne Lockwood: do. It's called adoption or surrogacy. There's so many options that are open to
Joanne Lockwood: us just the same as
Joanne Lockwood: traditional, archetypal, sort of opposite
Joanne Lockwood: sex couples. They can adopt, they can have test, few babies, they can have surrogacy.
Joanne Lockwood: So can we all. And so people still look shocked to go, oh, how
Joanne Lockwood: does that work? Hello. And I'm married to a drag queen.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Wow. Yeah,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: that's very different.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: He wasn't doing drag when we first met. It was only just
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Paul, we're getting married. He said, I really want to do drag. I was like,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: okay, fine. Do it.
Joanne Lockwood: To be fair, that's an easier conversation
Joanne Lockwood: in a gay relationship, I guess, than in a hetero relationship, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? I want to do drag from now on. Is that okay? I
Joanne Lockwood: remember my own conversation. I'm not
Joanne Lockwood: drag, I trans. But, yeah, it's not an easy conversation to have,
Joanne Lockwood: but I guess in an open, contemporary
Joanne Lockwood: LGBT relationship, it's a more dereg kind of
Joanne Lockwood: what? Yeah, it took me a while to get used to
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: it because I was looking at my husband but not seeing my
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: husband. Okay. And then
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I seen it more as an art rather than him doing
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: drag. It's a performance. It's a performance. The room I'm
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: in now, this is his drag room. Like, there's wigs everywhere and mannequins and stuff
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: like that, but we have to educate people all the time as well,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: because he thinks that people think
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: that drag is trans. It can be.
Joanne Lockwood: Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. They think that he's
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: trans. He's a drag queen and
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: he's there to entertain and to perform and to be an
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: artist. That's what he wants to do with it.
Joanne Lockwood: But people confuse identity and expression.
Joanne Lockwood: You can be queer and have a different sense of identity.
Joanne Lockwood: A contemporary version of not being a stereotypical man, not being a stereotypical
Joanne Lockwood: woman. And how you want to express yourself as a performance or
Joanne Lockwood: how you are, really is completely taxed. So to some
Joanne Lockwood: extent, it fits under the gender non conforming box. I
Joanne Lockwood: e trans. But, yeah, drag is a performance art. And
Joanne Lockwood: people do get confused, aren't they? They do, yeah.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: And my bosses and my colleagues,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: obviously. Devon, again, Isn't said it's quite
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: behind every other place in the world. And drag in
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Devon has gone from non existent to there's quite a
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: big scene now. And we've played a part in
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: that. But I guess one thing I have forgot, actually, I know
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: we've run out of time shortly, but what I did do
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: in response to me not being allowed to go to watch a football
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: match about two years ago now, so I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: started an LGBT football team. Okay, fantastic. You
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: know what? If I'm not allowed to go and watch or play football with you
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: lot, I'll start my own team up and get people that
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: are in the same boat as me that don't feel like they can go to
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: straight team and go and play football. I used
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: to go and sit in the pub. My husband hates football, so I would go
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and sit in the pub on my own and watch football. And to be honest,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: that's why I set up the football team, was the social aspect as well,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: just having someone I can watch football with.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: And we've been going now for two years, and we've
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: got people identify as everything.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: So we've got straight people coming along as well. So it is fantastic
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: that we've created a team now of nearly 30 members
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: from all different backgrounds, all different identities, and
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: we're all safe on one pitch, which is phenomenal.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: But that was kind of me sticking my fingers up, really,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: to my old colleagues saying, you know what? I can't watch football
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: with you, but I'll make my own team and watch football with them.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Fantastic. And that's kind of how I do a lot of
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: things. I find a way to you're pretty
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: positive. You said your passion is
Joanne Lockwood: about having a voice and making the world change,
Joanne Lockwood: and you seem to do that relentlessly. So how do
Joanne Lockwood: you keep this motivation? Like the rest of you,
Joanne Lockwood: you must have these down days. You're furloughed now people
Joanne Lockwood: can't go out, okay.
Joanne Lockwood: Being married, I suppose you're not on the pull anymore, so you don't need to
Joanne Lockwood: go out and socialise.
Joanne Lockwood: How do you keep your motivation? How do you stay focused in this tough time,
Joanne Lockwood: emotionally and physically? Well, with the football team,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: we do a fitness on a Thursday night,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: so we get one of the cheesy fitness
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: DVDs and we'll do it online together.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Saturday night, we do a virtual pub as well.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I love Benedict on the TV programme. I do a Benedictine quiz every
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Wednesday, so I try and do little
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: things that I know are going to make me happy. And
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: for me, as cheesy as it sounds, I know that
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: me putting on these little events is helping people all
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: over. And that's how I motivate myself,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: really, knowing that I'm helping someone else. My
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: partner set up a thing called Drag Diva Lockdown, which is with two of his
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: friends, so they're doing drag shows live and getting other drag queens to do it.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: So I'm getting involved with that as well, to try and help that. And
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: if we can help just two or three people, then
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: that's what motivates me. Awesome. That's fantastic.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. This weekend I should be doing London marathon, so
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I'm a little bit gutted because I spent seven
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: months training for it. So I'm doing
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: 6.5 miles every day, today, tomorrow, Saturday
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and Sunday to make up my 26 miles because I've had a month off training.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Now I can't do 26 in one go. All right, so I'm going to
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: still, that's motivating me as well. And I'm doing the
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: marathon in October instead now. So there are little
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: things, yes, I do get down days, but
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I'll stick on a comedy on TV, go and sit in the
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: garden and listen to some Spice Girl music or Disney
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: anthem. There's little things that I just find if I find little things that
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I know that make me happy and I'll do 510 minutes of that
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: each day, then that keeps me going.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I'm learning new skills, I'm learning how to build a website and to do
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: coding. I'm doing a British sign language language course
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: as well, and they're all
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: free. None of this is costing me any money,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: so I think there's so much out there that people can find that will help
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: them. And, yeah, that's me.
Joanne Lockwood: So this so is it okay to be
Joanne Lockwood: gay now? Is it okay or
Joanne Lockwood: has it still got a long way to go? I still think it's got a
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: long way to go.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: This is just me. I want to be able to hold my husband's hand
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: in public, but I can't, because
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I know if someone says something, I say something back. I find it
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: hard. Like, yes, I give people a voice, but sometimes my voice can
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: not always be the best one because I can
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: retaliate and I know I shouldn't. I should just walk away from it.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: So I think we've got a long way to go. There's always going to be
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: people that are going to be prejudiced against us,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I think. Is it easier? It
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: possibly is easier. Every year it gets
Joanne Lockwood: better. Still a long way to go. Yeah, there is
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: a long way to go, but I think it's getting better.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Obviously. Being able to get married was huge for me because that was the
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: biggest thing that I hated about being gay
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: when I was younger. Like, when I thought I was gay to start with, I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: was like, I really want to get married and have kids and now we
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: can. It changed my life totally.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Not that I jumped in and got married with the first man I come across.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Now I can actually settle down with someone, have a normal life,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: so to speak. It changed
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: things. And I think the more things are getting changed,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: like now we can give blood and things like that. I think every
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: time something changes for us, it's going to make things a lot easier and better
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: for us. I think people will ask me all
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: the time, why do you need a gay football team?
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Homophobia in football is ridiculous. All the other ones are all
Joanne Lockwood: straight representation.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: There's no out gay footballer in any professional
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: football league and we have to have gay football teams for that
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: reason. So when you are growing up, if you don't feel like you can go
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: to your we've had so many parents come to us say, look, can you
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: start a gay youth football team? I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: can't yet. I'm trying to figure out how to run a adult
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: football team at the moment. One thing at a time. I've done my level
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: one coaching, so I can for FA football, so I can
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: eventually help set up, hopefully an LGBT football team
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: for the youth. But that years ahead
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: when I'm probably a bit older. But,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: yeah, I think there's a lot that can be done still, and
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I think it is getting done. I think there's more work to be done
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: within our own community because we
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: can support each other phenomenally, but then we
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: can be the nastiest of people to each other as well. And that
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: needs to change. And the perception
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: of what people think people are from a certain identity needs to change
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: because it is not true. And
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I'll first hold my hands up and know that. I used to think that when
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I first came out of being gay, because that's what people told me
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: that the DS and the B's and the G's all were. And I'm like,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: okay, because I'm new to the industry, I'm new
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: to the community, I'll go with the flow.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: And then I was like, you know what? I need to get to know these
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: people for myself and understand them more, and which is
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: what I've done with all the community.
Joanne Lockwood: You got the ear of some recruiters out there. What advice or what
Joanne Lockwood: have you learned as a recruiter that allows
Joanne Lockwood: you to be more inclusive and more passionate
Joanne Lockwood: about promoting people of difference, whatever that may be. So
Joanne Lockwood: what advice would you give to other people based on your experience? I think
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: the biggest thing that I learned for myself was
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: that you have to be open and honest about it and
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: not shy away from bringing up a conversation. Yes,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: they hate talking about it. Clients do not want to talk about it with me,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: but I'm like, you know what, you're going to have to. So
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: we're talking about it now. So not shy away from opening
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: up conversations on that and discussing and offer it as
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: a service, like an additional service. I wouldn't ever charge to talk
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: to somebody about inclusivity and diversity and it's an extra add on
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: that I will give all my clients say, look, I've looked at your diversity
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: inclusion policy, I've done this, I've done that for you. Let's look at your
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: quota staff, let's look at where you do need to probably improve on bringing a
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: more diverse team in and how your culture can change.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: So I think, yeah, the biggest thing that I would say with recruiters is that
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: use it as a tool to not
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: gain clients at all, but as a tool to educate.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: We have got a massive platform as recruiters to be able to
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: start at the ground and educate people from day one
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and express how we I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: think the biggest four, I find that I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: don't know any other apart from one or maybe two. I don't know
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: many out and proud recruiters,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: which I think that and I know there are so many out
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: there, and I think by just sticking
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: your pronouns on, your signature might be a tiny little thing
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and might not mean a lot, but it means a massive deal to so
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: many people that you understand what it means to have
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: a pronoun. That might not be the norm of what people
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: think. And that's what I get with people that will identify as
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: that day and then they will approach me because that they've seen my signature
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and it says, he, him is and they feel like that, they
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: don't need to explain it or they don't
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: need to spend time having that awkward conversation.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: So I think use the little things like with the flag
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and stuff like that. If you do identify
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: within our own community, just be proud and out about it and not shy
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: away. And if you feel like you're in a company that
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: won't let you do that, then do what I do and leave and find a
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: company that will. I often say that if you can't
Joanne Lockwood: make the change, walk away, vote with your fate, find somebody who will. There's plenty
Joanne Lockwood: of organisations out there that will value you for being you
Joanne Lockwood: and. I think you still need to try and make the change. I won't walk
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: away straight away. Try and make the change if you can,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: and to see what you can do. And sometimes you're not going to get
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: the support of the seniors and I think that's in with any industry or any
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: business, you're not always going to get your direct line manager
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: supporting what you want to do, but there'll be other people that
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: will. And you can
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: connect with other people on LinkedIn or with other communities in your
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: area that will help you do what you want to do and get the end
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: goal. I got with Extra Pride to
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: try and give it a platform
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: for businesses as well as our community, to teach businesses about
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: the LGBT community and the power that we do have and the
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: influences that we have. And what we're doing
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: as a community for Exeter is for the whole of the community,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: not just for the LGBT community. And
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: that's really what I feel a lot of people do need to
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: sort of get involved with and just try and find other avenues.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I'm a suicide first aid for Prevention
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: against Suicide because they wanted someone
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: from the LGBT community that could be on call if anyone
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: needs to speak to somebody that identifies as gay or lesbian or
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: trans or bi. So I signed up for that as well and I
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: did that on my own. That's got no impact into my recruitment
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: job. But for me,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: because of my network, I have got I can reach out to
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: companies now on behalf of the suicide
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: company for support and to train them on suicide
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: prevention in the workplace and stuff like that. So there are lots of other
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: organisations outside of your own workplace that you get involved with that you
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: can then bring into the workplace. That makes sense. Yeah. We could talk all
Joanne Lockwood: day. I'm sure
Joanne Lockwood: our listeners have got so many more questions. So how can people get hold of
Joanne Lockwood: you if they want to continue the conversation? Presume you're on LinkedIn. How would they
Joanne Lockwood: find you on LinkedIn? LinkedIn. This is one thing
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: as well. I will quickly do this with my LinkedIn. Originally, I had flag
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Lewis Bell-Cawthra flag. Don't put your flag
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: at the front of your name because they can't find you. Okay,
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: I didn't know that. So, Lewis l-e-w-i-s-l-b-e-l-l-c-a-w-t-h-r-a,
Joanne Lockwood: is
Joanne Lockwood: that right? Yes, that's right. See you on there.
Joanne Lockwood: And you're open to connections and direct messages, so
Joanne Lockwood: please get in contact. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Whatever you want to talk about, I'm
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: always open. Yeah. So, a bit of advice on diversity recruitment
Joanne Lockwood: from LGBT and from a people perspective, I
Joanne Lockwood: guess maybe a holiday in the West Country
Joanne Lockwood: afterwards. Lovely.
Lewis Bell-Cawthra: Not at the moment. No, not at the moment. Well, thank you,
Joanne Lockwood: Lewis. I'm sure everyone will agree there's much to ponder upon
Joanne Lockwood: there. And a huge thank you to you for listening in and tuning
Joanne Lockwood: in. So please do subscribe to keep updated on future
Joanne Lockwood: episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's
Joanne Lockwood: bites. Please tell your friends and
Joanne Lockwood: colleagues. I have a number of exciting guests lined up that I'm
Joanne Lockwood: sure you'll be inspired by over the next few weeks and even months. So
Joanne Lockwood: remember also, you'd like to be a guest in the future. Please let me
Joanne Lockwood: know. I welcome any feedback and suggestions to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: That's jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: for future shows and how we can improve your
Joanne Lockwood: feedback would be immense and awesome. So my name is Joanne
Joanne Lockwood: Lockwood. It's been an absolute pleasure to host.