Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host. The
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a
Joanne Lockwood: number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subject of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to
Joanne Lockwood: thrive in. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop
Joanne Lockwood: me a line to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Joanne Lockwood: and that's
Joanne Lockwood: you be able to catch up with all of the episodes on itunes, Spotify and
Joanne Lockwood: all the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf
Joanne Lockwood: and let's get going. Today is
Joanne Lockwood: episode six with the title It's all about acceptance
Joanne Lockwood: and authenticity in order to be able to achieve.
Joanne Lockwood: I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined
Joanne Lockwood: by Michael Jarasi. I met Michael
Joanne Lockwood: randomly on LinkedIn, like you do, and Michael described
Joanne Lockwood: himself as a transformational life coach. So I asked Michael
Joanne Lockwood: to tell me about his superpower and he said he's an active listener
Joanne Lockwood: and full of compassion. So hello, Michael,
Joanne Lockwood: welcome to the show. Lovely to be here, joanne, I'm excited
Michael Cerasi: to chat to you today. So tell,
Joanne Lockwood: why is it all about acceptance and authenticity in
Joanne Lockwood: order to be able to achieve? Well, actually, for me, I believe
Michael Cerasi: this is my philosophy when working with clients. I call it AAA.
Michael Cerasi: It's an easy abbreviation to remember. You think
Michael Cerasi: of your AAA batteries, and here today, I hope
Michael Cerasi: to kind of supercharge people's journey into
Michael Cerasi: success and achieving. Wow. AAA
Joanne Lockwood: batteries. So they're fully rechargeable. So
Joanne Lockwood: you pop on charge overnight or a good session with you and that charges people's
Joanne Lockwood: batteries run up again. That's right. And I think it's important
Michael Cerasi: to know your own values, to be able to navigate
Michael Cerasi: success and know which direction to go in.
Joanne Lockwood: So how does your superpower of your
Joanne Lockwood: listening compassion come into that, to play in
Joanne Lockwood: that? Well, when I tell people my superpower is active
Michael Cerasi: listening, a lot of people think, oh, my God, listening is so easy, anyone can
Michael Cerasi: do that. But in actual fact,
Michael Cerasi: it takes a lot of concentration to listen to someone
Michael Cerasi: properly, especially not giving them advice.
Michael Cerasi: A lot of family members will think that they're listening to you, but in actual
Michael Cerasi: fact tell you what to do. So I
Michael Cerasi: think it's important to be able to take what
Michael Cerasi: someone's saying and let them have the opportunity
Michael Cerasi: to make the decisions themselves. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: that's a really good point. I know myself sometimes when
Joanne Lockwood: I'm zoned out, I've got my black mirror in my hand, I'm playing
Joanne Lockwood: with my phone, my mind's elsewhere and someone's trying to talk to me. I know
Joanne Lockwood: myself that sometimes I'm not giving people that respect of
Joanne Lockwood: listening. And not only I'm not listening, I'm not hearing them either,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not hearing their words. So what sort of techniques have you
Joanne Lockwood: learned in order to help yourself become an active listener? I
Michael Cerasi: think today in the modern world, we have so many distractions and
Michael Cerasi: that could be your phone, it could be the television, so I have to
Michael Cerasi: switch everything off. I dedicate that
Michael Cerasi: specific time to my clients and ensure that
Michael Cerasi: I'm completely concentrated on the conversation. And
Michael Cerasi: whenever I do work with clients, I tend to reflect back
Michael Cerasi: what they're saying to be sure that what I've understood is
Michael Cerasi: correct. And my second
Michael Cerasi: superpower I did mention is compassion. And I think it's important
Michael Cerasi: to be able to truly understand your client in order to be able to
Michael Cerasi: help them in their
Michael Cerasi: endeavours. Yeah. No, I completely agree. I think
Joanne Lockwood: compassion is something that I think is a very human trait
Joanne Lockwood: and something we often don't use enough. We
Joanne Lockwood: often jump to judgement without using our
Joanne Lockwood: compassion first. Would you say that you use
Michael Cerasi: compassion in your own work? I do. Personally, I think
Joanne Lockwood: I'm sure I do. And it's trying to blend empathy,
Joanne Lockwood: compassion, vulnerability, allowing somebody else to be vulnerable
Joanne Lockwood: and that someone else to show to talk about
Joanne Lockwood: themselves and give them that space to be able to communicate in that way. And
Joanne Lockwood: I think having someone listen to you is a really powerful
Joanne Lockwood: thing that not everybody experiences. And when you have had someone
Joanne Lockwood: just listen to you without saying a word, it is so powerful. So
Joanne Lockwood: that must be something that you're experiencing often.
Michael Cerasi: Yeah, I mean, I've had clients before that have
Michael Cerasi: told me sincerely that they've never felt listened to ever.
Michael Cerasi: And for them it's quite a magical experience that someone is
Michael Cerasi: very much dedicated their time to them and
Michael Cerasi: towards their own. Well, it's
Joanne Lockwood: interesting, I seem to remember when we met back in the days when you could
Joanne Lockwood: meet physically. We're obviously in the height of
Joanne Lockwood: lockdown season, it's the new norm, apparently.
Joanne Lockwood: But we met in London, didn't we? And I remember we sat down for probably
Joanne Lockwood: what I thought was going to be a half hour meeting or half hour conversation
Joanne Lockwood: and I think it was about 4 hours later. And
Joanne Lockwood: although I felt drained, it was a very cathartic experience
Joanne Lockwood: because you are a very good listening and I hadn't
Joanne Lockwood: realised that that was what was happening until afterwards. So it was a very
Joanne Lockwood: powerful process. And I've probably talked
Joanne Lockwood: more to you about stuff than I've ever talked to somebody else
Joanne Lockwood: because you are such an engaging listener, if you
Joanne Lockwood: like. And you were able to just prompt me every so often with
Joanne Lockwood: some additional bits of conversation that just kept me pouring it out,
Joanne Lockwood: if you like. Well, you know, Joanne, I always enjoy our conversations
Michael Cerasi: together and whenever we plan to have a quick call, it
Michael Cerasi: always ends up being a few hours I love
Michael Cerasi: to have a chat with. So do you
Joanne Lockwood: find maybe when you're doing coaching that
Joanne Lockwood: it takes a while for people to open up? I mean, are people used to
Joanne Lockwood: being able to be honest and vulnerable with you? I mean, is that something they
Joanne Lockwood: have to learn themselves. It really depends on the client.
Michael Cerasi: Usually I work with clients for about six sessions
Michael Cerasi: and that allows us to kind of go deep into the
Michael Cerasi: topic or challenge that they have. But for
Michael Cerasi: some clients, maybe only a few sessions would be
Michael Cerasi: enough. It really depends how
Michael Cerasi: long it might take them to go into
Michael Cerasi: the topic or how vulnerable they're able to be from the get go
Michael Cerasi: in order to see change. Do you
Joanne Lockwood: ever find that you've opened a box
Joanne Lockwood: and they let something out that's really hard for them to
Joanne Lockwood: process at that time? Or do you find generally people are
Joanne Lockwood: quite reserved still and you have to tease things out of them.
Michael Cerasi: So people come to me as a coach because they feel stuck and they don't
Michael Cerasi: know what the next step is. So
Michael Cerasi: they wouldn't be coming to me if they knew what to do.
Michael Cerasi: There is a challenge around that. But
Michael Cerasi: sometimes I do get clients that are confused between
Michael Cerasi: what coaching is compared to, for example, counselling or mentoring,
Michael Cerasi: when all three are quite different. And so if
Michael Cerasi: there is a topic that feels more towards the
Michael Cerasi: counselling angle, I wouldn't be able to help them in that respect.
Joanne Lockwood: Okay, so counselling is where you're trying to resolve a problem, coaching is where you're
Joanne Lockwood: trying to unlock yourself. Is that the difference? So
Michael Cerasi: counselling is helping to cure
Michael Cerasi: past trauma that you might have had, whereas
Michael Cerasi: coaching looks at what is going on for you now and how is that
Michael Cerasi: affecting your future. And so it's always future looking
Michael Cerasi: in that sense. It's also non advisory as well. So
Michael Cerasi: that's the main difference between coaching and mentoring. For example.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I remember doing an Introduction to
Joanne Lockwood: Coaching course myself a couple of years ago, and some of
Joanne Lockwood: the exercise we did were really powerful where
Joanne Lockwood: even by the way you look, a gesture,
Joanne Lockwood: a body movement, or even the way you respond with a certain tone
Joanne Lockwood: can almost imply approval or disapproval
Joanne Lockwood: or acknowledgment or recognition. And you've also got to try and
Joanne Lockwood: be very neutral in your reactions to someone when they talk to you in a
Joanne Lockwood: coaching model, haven't they? Yeah, I mean, the main focus of
Michael Cerasi: a coaching conversation are the powerful questions. And so
Michael Cerasi: it's very much how you word those questions
Michael Cerasi: because you don't want to be asking closed questions or leading
Michael Cerasi: questions, because then that's essentially giving them
Michael Cerasi: subconscious advice. And
Michael Cerasi: that's not the point of a coaching conversation.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes, you're not after a yes or no type answer with a right or wrong.
Joanne Lockwood: It's kind of a how do you feel? Or what does that look like to
Joanne Lockwood: you? Or what does that feel like to you? What does success feel like
Joanne Lockwood: questions. Isn't that exactly you've got it down perfectly. You'll
Michael Cerasi: be stealing my job next. I still remember the course I did
Joanne Lockwood: and the grow model and all this other stuff and the learning ladders
Joanne Lockwood: and all this kind of stuff. I remember the wheel of life or whatever the
Joanne Lockwood: techniques are. Yeah. But I think today
Michael Cerasi: a lot of people either focus on academics or their
Michael Cerasi: physical well being and often forget their own mental
Michael Cerasi: state and how that can impact where they're going
Michael Cerasi: in their purpose or direction in life. And so
Michael Cerasi: a coaching session really allows someone to
Michael Cerasi: focus on that and also invest in themselves for
Michael Cerasi: that hour or a few hours that they have with the coach.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. So what got you into coaching in the first place? I mean, you like
Joanne Lockwood: listening to people or you just came into it by
Joanne Lockwood: mistake or by accident or was it a lifeguard? Well, I
Michael Cerasi: actually had a life changing experience when I volunteered as a massage
Michael Cerasi: therapist for St Joseph's Hospice in Hackney in East
Michael Cerasi: London. I was volunteering in the
Michael Cerasi: palliative care unit where I was working with people in end of
Michael Cerasi: life. And going into it, I thought that people would be
Michael Cerasi: quite sad and kind of ready to kind of complete
Michael Cerasi: their life when in actual fact,
Michael Cerasi: most of the patients that I worked with really had a zest for
Michael Cerasi: life and that's what inspired me. And I
Michael Cerasi: meant that I wanted to kind of take that zest
Michael Cerasi: and have that same outlook in my own life and also help other
Michael Cerasi: people do the same.
Joanne Lockwood: Wow, that's quite a life changing moment.
Joanne Lockwood: I've never worked in that kind of environment or been around people in that kind
Joanne Lockwood: of situation. I've never physically
Joanne Lockwood: avoided it, but it's not something that I would think
Joanne Lockwood: of working with people at that stage of their life.
Joanne Lockwood: It's quite a challenging thing to do. Whenever I would
Michael Cerasi: meet a new patient, they would always be excited to tell me their story
Michael Cerasi: or little anecdotes about their life and
Michael Cerasi: couldn't wait to see my reaction to the stories that they would
Michael Cerasi: tell me. And that kind of
Michael Cerasi: excitement was wonderful to see in someone,
Michael Cerasi: maybe in the last few moments that they would have.
Joanne Lockwood: I watch people's stories on television, in documentaries, where
Joanne Lockwood: they're going through their end of life parenthood scare typing, and I
Joanne Lockwood: get so emotionally connected with people, even through the television,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not sure that I could isolate my own self
Joanne Lockwood: enough to be in that environment on a day in, day out basis. So that
Joanne Lockwood: I got to admire the fact you can do that and you're able to partition
Joanne Lockwood: that off in your head somehow. Thank you. I mean, it was
Michael Cerasi: definitely extremely rewarding and I really enjoyed my experience there.
Michael Cerasi: It became one of the highlights of my week, going
Michael Cerasi: into the hospice and helping the patients.
Joanne Lockwood: The dangers, I'm going to say the word, some sort of false
Joanne Lockwood: platitudes. And no, I do mean this with all sincerity, that
Joanne Lockwood: it's quite a valuable thing that you're able to do there.
Joanne Lockwood: So we mentioned the COVID thing, we're right in the
Joanne Lockwood: middle of this and whilst this podcast will be on the internet, I hope
Joanne Lockwood: for a long time to come. It's worth maybe putting a marker in the ground
Joanne Lockwood: at this time, like the end of May, beginning of June 2020,
Joanne Lockwood: to sort of try and reflect on some of the challenges you're seeing
Joanne Lockwood: with people, some of your people. You're coaching or maybe you're
Joanne Lockwood: observing behaviours from leaders or team members
Joanne Lockwood: and what people could be maybe doing better or what help people would
Joanne Lockwood: use with in terms of your speciality, which is
Joanne Lockwood: coaching. So what are you saying at the moment? I think times
Michael Cerasi: like this are extremely important
Michael Cerasi: in speaking to a coach because we're really
Michael Cerasi: in uncertain times, we don't know what the next step is. And
Michael Cerasi: so having someone that is there to support you
Michael Cerasi: or to help you kind of figure out what might
Michael Cerasi: be right for you and it could be to do with
Michael Cerasi: the relationships with the people that you have that you're currently
Michael Cerasi: living with. So because we're at the
Michael Cerasi: moment maybe stuck in a home or self isolated altogether,
Michael Cerasi: it can be complicated at times, or it
Michael Cerasi: could be maybe you've lost your job because
Michael Cerasi: of the pandemic and figuring out what the next step is in terms of your
Michael Cerasi: career or how can you
Michael Cerasi: improve your confidence in this type of situation.
Michael Cerasi: There are loads of different topics that people might want to discuss.
Michael Cerasi: In actual fact, at the moment, I'm offering my
Michael Cerasi: coaching through a website called More Happy to
Michael Cerasi: frontline key Workers and people who Have Lost Their
Michael Cerasi: Businesses because of COVID and I Hope to be
Michael Cerasi: Able To support the people that have been affected. So
Joanne Lockwood: more happy. That's M-O-R-E-H-A-P-P-I. Is that
Joanne Lockwood: right? That's right, yes. And people can obviously Google that and find out
Joanne Lockwood: more if they want to. Yeah. And they can look up my profile
Michael Cerasi: on there. Oh, fantastic.
Joanne Lockwood: We talk about authentic leadership and we see
Joanne Lockwood: leaders, if you like, themselves, having to adjust this
Joanne Lockwood: change.
Joanne Lockwood: I speak often about the fact that we sometimes
Joanne Lockwood: transform people from being a team member into a leader without always giving them the
Joanne Lockwood: right tools in order to be a great leader. And I
Joanne Lockwood: think none of us were prepared for this lockdown, none of us were
Joanne Lockwood: prepared to go completely virtual or not many of us were. So
Joanne Lockwood: I think leaders themselves are everyone's looking to them for
Joanne Lockwood: guidance, everyone's looking to them for leadership and direction and
Joanne Lockwood: they struggle themselves, aren't they? And not every leader has
Joanne Lockwood: got the tools in their own toolbox to self coach,
Joanne Lockwood: self manage, to self motivate in this time. They've
Joanne Lockwood: got their own struggles. So what advice would you give to someone who's maybe
Joanne Lockwood: in a leadership role about how to maybe look after themselves,
Joanne Lockwood: put their own oxygen mask on and also help their team?
Michael Cerasi: I guess a lot of leaders end up kind of jumping into the deep end
Michael Cerasi: because that is the role that they've been given and they forget their own self
Michael Cerasi: development. And I think it's important to
Michael Cerasi: look at how your own growth and how your new
Michael Cerasi: kind of leadership title has affected you and how you plan
Michael Cerasi: to build your relationships with your colleagues and
Michael Cerasi: staff and
Michael Cerasi: how can you? Better. Maybe, for example, manage your work life balance.
Michael Cerasi: At the moment, there's so much push
Michael Cerasi: and pull from either your work or your family, and
Michael Cerasi: a lot of people don't know how to navigate that. So
Michael Cerasi: it's a topic that I work with clients a lot actually, on how to
Michael Cerasi: manage their time better. Yeah, because
Joanne Lockwood: this is also because you don't drive home, get on the train.
Joanne Lockwood: Some people are feeling like a slave to the black mirror,
Joanne Lockwood: aren't they? They're feeling like they've got to work when they can, they're getting
Joanne Lockwood: up earlier, they're working later, or because
Joanne Lockwood: maybe they've got other responsibilities, whether that's childcare
Joanne Lockwood: or they're caring for relatives or they're
Joanne Lockwood: performing other shopping tasks or whatever else they may be doing, they've almost felt they've
Joanne Lockwood: got to make up time. So people I think I'm hearing that people are burning
Joanne Lockwood: out more and getting more and more stressed. They're certainly burning out from zoom calls
Joanne Lockwood: and video calls now, aren't they? I think at the moment, a lot of
Michael Cerasi: parents have to suddenly homeschool their children at the same time
Michael Cerasi: as continue doing their own job and
Michael Cerasi: understanding how to manage that. At the same time,
Michael Cerasi: with quite maybe active children, how can you keep them
Michael Cerasi: entertained but also be continuing your
Michael Cerasi: professional life? It can be quite difficult to manage.
Joanne Lockwood: Obviously, as a coach, you're not here to sort of solve anyone's problem. You're not
Joanne Lockwood: here to sort of come up with all the thoughts and answers yourself. But
Joanne Lockwood: what kind of questions would you ask somebody who is
Joanne Lockwood: maybe feeling a bit sort of trapped or in that locked in a cycle? How
Joanne Lockwood: would you help them unlock that? Well, my role as a
Michael Cerasi: coach is to empower the person to understand their own
Michael Cerasi: situation. So I wouldn't be able to give you
Michael Cerasi: example questions that I would ask them because it would really
Michael Cerasi: depend on the conversation and what they would like to bring up.
Michael Cerasi: So whenever I work with a client, the questions are
Michael Cerasi: unique to that client.
Michael Cerasi: If I worked from template questions, I'd feel like
Michael Cerasi: the coach wouldn't necessarily be listening to the client, they would just be
Michael Cerasi: using the questions that they know and the
Michael Cerasi: conversation wouldn't be bespoke at all. Okay.
Joanne Lockwood: So you'd be looking to try and find out why they wanted to feel they
Joanne Lockwood: needed to change, what was their why,
Joanne Lockwood: what's going wrong, and let them unlock that themselves
Joanne Lockwood: as to whatever comes out of why they want to change or why they think
Joanne Lockwood: they need help. So in coaching, we often talk about what's called
Michael Cerasi: limiting beliefs. And these beliefs
Michael Cerasi: are, let's say, barriers or stumbling blocks that might
Michael Cerasi: stop you from getting to where you want to go. And so we
Michael Cerasi: would work together in kind of unpacking that and seeing
Michael Cerasi: how that is affecting them now and what
Michael Cerasi: ways they can kind of work on that or try and
Michael Cerasi: go around it to be able to get to their goal. Right,
Joanne Lockwood: I got you. Okay. I've had some pretty limiting
Joanne Lockwood: beliefs in my own life over the years, and I've
Joanne Lockwood: broken through a few of them, but they're still there. I think it's a
Joanne Lockwood: human thing. We all wish to be
Joanne Lockwood: accepted for who we are, embrace who we are. And sometimes we're
Joanne Lockwood: too worried or get very nervous about pushing ourselves into our stretch
Joanne Lockwood: zone or into our panic zone without really
Joanne Lockwood: we like to be safe, don't we? And sometimes the limiting beliefs is that we
Joanne Lockwood: need to be safe, need to feel that we've got respect for
Joanne Lockwood: people around us. And by going to our stretch, we sometimes feel, well, maybe
Joanne Lockwood: what's, some of them judge us at this point. What if I'm not quite good
Joanne Lockwood: enough? What if I can't succeed? So, yeah, I completely get that.
Joanne Lockwood: And as I said, I had to
Joanne Lockwood: overcome a few of those challenges myself. Exactly. Limiting
Michael Cerasi: beliefs are just part of being human and it makes us who we are.
Michael Cerasi: And so I'm not saying that we would want to be in
Michael Cerasi: a situation where we don't have any limiting beliefs at all, because that would make
Michael Cerasi: us not human. But what I'm saying is that there are ways to be able
Michael Cerasi: to overcome them, to be able to reach the challenge that
Michael Cerasi: you reach the goal that you want to achieve.
Joanne Lockwood: One thing that I realised when I was
Joanne Lockwood: feeling this intense impostor syndrome, which I guess is
Joanne Lockwood: another side of limiting beliefs, where you just feel you're not good enough,
Joanne Lockwood: you got to be discovered, it's all part of feeling that same sort of part
Joanne Lockwood: of your psyche. What I suddenly realised was I was
Joanne Lockwood: benchmarking myself against myself,
Joanne Lockwood: so I could never escape my shadow. So no matter how
Joanne Lockwood: much I improved, I always saw my shadow with me. And therefore that was
Joanne Lockwood: my reference point. So I never felt I was achieving anything. So
Joanne Lockwood: one of the things I learned was to be able to anchor a moment in
Joanne Lockwood: time where I could see the difference between me today
Joanne Lockwood: and me then, and not judge myself about how I was
Joanne Lockwood: yesterday, but how I was three months ago. And then learn to listen to
Joanne Lockwood: people who said, that's good, that's fantastic, well done, really
Joanne Lockwood: appreciate that. And take that as a compliment and lock it in and say,
Joanne Lockwood: okay, I did a good job. I'm not going to beat myself up or double
Joanne Lockwood: think that or go, no, you're only kidding, I don't believe you type
Joanne Lockwood: thing, which is often. We do that as well, don't we? So I've learned to
Joanne Lockwood: accept praise, recognition, feedback and positively.
Joanne Lockwood: And I've also learned to anchor points in
Joanne Lockwood: my life so I can go back and benchmark myself against an anchor point. I
Joanne Lockwood: think that really helped me in those terms. That sounds
Michael Cerasi: like a fantastic breakthrough to me. But we must
Michael Cerasi: be conscious that a lot of people won't know how to kind of
Michael Cerasi: break that down in their head completely. Yeah, completely. And so
Michael Cerasi: working with a coach, it might help them kind of see that perspective and
Michael Cerasi: get to the breakthrough that you've obviously achieved. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: I think mine was hyper amplified by the fact I work
Joanne Lockwood: alone a lot and I do lots of short term gig type
Joanne Lockwood: work. So I'm always doing something new. I'm always meeting new
Joanne Lockwood: people. I'm always doing another talk or another training session for different people.
Joanne Lockwood: So therefore it's always hard to have any comparison between two
Joanne Lockwood: days or two weeks. So I guess if you're more closely aligned with the
Joanne Lockwood: team, it may be easier to benchmark yourself. But when you are
Joanne Lockwood: literally a loner, sometimes that's the hard
Joanne Lockwood: thing. And I guess going back to the AAA theme
Michael Cerasi: or the supercharging is that getting
Michael Cerasi: to that breakthrough moment would be much quicker with a
Michael Cerasi: coach. So a lot of people just don't have the
Michael Cerasi: time to do that. And so it's important to kind
Michael Cerasi: of supercharge it and get to that step
Michael Cerasi: quicker in many cases. So it's recognising. Your
Joanne Lockwood: batteries are starting to get depleted of power
Joanne Lockwood: and learning. You've got to take them out of the back of the bunny
Joanne Lockwood: and put them on charge overnight or use the coach to be
Joanne Lockwood: able to top up your charge again. That's kind of what you're saying, make time
Joanne Lockwood: for yourself. Well, I wouldn't want to say that the batteries are
Michael Cerasi: depleted because that just doesn't sound very friendly to my clients.
Michael Cerasi: But what I would say is that recognising that
Michael Cerasi: you're in a situation where you don't know how to get to the next step
Michael Cerasi: and allowing yourself that time with someone who's there to support
Michael Cerasi: you and kind of gifting that time
Michael Cerasi: to yourself. Yeah. Okay. So literally
Joanne Lockwood: carving out a space in your schedule and say, this is me time, this
Joanne Lockwood: is investment time, this is to help me move
Joanne Lockwood: past my block time. So almost like a reward for giving that time up
Joanne Lockwood: is that you make progress, you develop yourself. I mean, a lot of my
Michael Cerasi: clients aren't used to setting aside time just for themselves
Michael Cerasi: in the same way that they might have never been listened to. They're not
Michael Cerasi: used to investing in themselves. And so
Michael Cerasi: just giving themselves an hour, that's an hour of
Michael Cerasi: just them talking about themselves can be quite
Michael Cerasi: cathartic in that sense.
Joanne Lockwood: What other stuff have you done in your life? I mean, you've obviously done
Joanne Lockwood: this with people at end of life,
Joanne Lockwood: you've become a coach. What else have you
Joanne Lockwood: done? You're obviously worldly and
Joanne Lockwood: wise. With my
Michael Cerasi: coaching, I'm currently working on a workshop called Thriving
Michael Cerasi: amid Change Challenge and Uncertainty that I'm hoping
Michael Cerasi: to help people during the coronavirus time. Also,
Michael Cerasi: I'm developing my own podcast called Your Hero Is
Michael Cerasi: You. And outside
Michael Cerasi: of my coaching, I am
Michael Cerasi: working alongside a fabulous team to create an online digital
Michael Cerasi: magazine for the LGBT plus community and its allies called
Michael Cerasi: Queer Community.
Michael Cerasi: I personally identify as Bi
Michael Cerasi: and it also meant that I
Michael Cerasi: volunteered at By Pride as head of stages
Michael Cerasi: to help develop the first By Pride
Michael Cerasi: last year in September. It's in London. Yeah,
Michael Cerasi: in London. That's right. The 7 September in London.
Michael Cerasi: It was the biggest buy event in the world and we welcomed just over.
Joanne Lockwood: 1000 people and allies
Joanne Lockwood: and all over the community. Exactly. I
Michael Cerasi: personally was very proud because Stonewall
Michael Cerasi: recommended it as one of the most inclusive Pride events ever.
Michael Cerasi: And so for us, By Pride at the time, it was a huge
Michael Cerasi: success. Fantastic. So did you march
Joanne Lockwood: through London? Did you or was it just a static event? So
Michael Cerasi: it was a static event. We
Michael Cerasi: also marched at Pride of London as well, but
Michael Cerasi: our event was hosted with two stages, so I was
Michael Cerasi: head of stages, so my responsibility was kind of
Michael Cerasi: managing what was the performers on the
Michael Cerasi: main stage and also the speakers on the I Am Proud stage.
Michael Cerasi: I also spoke myself on my own coaching
Michael Cerasi: with a talk called By Leaving Yourself and Dream Big.
Michael Cerasi: So you have to mind the pun there.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, by leaving yourself. No, I got that.
Joanne Lockwood: So you manage two stages. Have you got a background in
Joanne Lockwood: rock star management or that or dealing with
Joanne Lockwood: divas? Well, before
Michael Cerasi: working in health and wellbeing, my background was in fashion, so I worked
Michael Cerasi: on fashion show production. I worked on, for
Michael Cerasi: example, Martin Margiela's Show or London Fashion Week.
Michael Cerasi: So in these types of events, you're
Michael Cerasi: used to working with very high profile people.
Joanne Lockwood: So any big name bands we would have heard of that were there,
Joanne Lockwood: or up and coming artists, were they? So
Michael Cerasi: for us, it wasn't necessarily getting the biggest names.
Michael Cerasi: We definitely wanted more by representation,
Michael Cerasi: but we did have some kind of
Michael Cerasi: famous bistars or LGBT
Michael Cerasi: groups and so it was a really magical day and for
Michael Cerasi: me, just to see a whole room of Bi people
Michael Cerasi: all under one roof was really
Michael Cerasi: awesome. Back in
Joanne Lockwood: my youth, I was in the RAF for a few years and
Joanne Lockwood: I used to look after entertainment for the Nafi,
Joanne Lockwood: for the non commissioned
Joanne Lockwood: bar club, for the station I was at.
Joanne Lockwood: And one of my kind of claims to fame is that
Joanne Lockwood: I booked Katrina and The Waves a number of
Joanne Lockwood: times. This is back in the early 80s, before they got it big,
Joanne Lockwood: before Walking on Sunshine became a massive hit.
Joanne Lockwood: I saw them perform that live. I was drinking,
Joanne Lockwood: I think, beers or cocktails with them in the green room,
Joanne Lockwood: which is actually a TV room upstairs, I think, in the club where people used
Joanne Lockwood: to watch television screen off. But there's Katrina, The Waves and the band,
Joanne Lockwood: all sort of like getting changed, drinking, having chats with them. I booked
Joanne Lockwood: them several times. I never classed myself
Joanne Lockwood: as a friend, but more a good acquaintance, because we were
Joanne Lockwood: kind of familiar. So to see them succeed in
Joanne Lockwood: the Eurovision and see them still going is quite proud
Joanne Lockwood: of that. And I've got their first album. I used to have their first
Joanne Lockwood: album on vinyl, which is a pre production press with a couple
Joanne Lockwood: of typos. So, yeah, I was quite pleased about
Joanne Lockwood: that. So now I've got memories of my own stage
Joanne Lockwood: production and stuff like that as well. That's really fantastic and great that
Michael Cerasi: you met those people and you could follow
Michael Cerasi: on with By Pride because we had two stages, each
Michael Cerasi: stage was 7 hours each, so it meant that we were organising
Michael Cerasi: 14 hours of content, so it was a lot of
Michael Cerasi: pressure. With it also being the first event,
Michael Cerasi: I'm pleased that we got a lot of very good reviews.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes, I know. It's like when you're doing something the first time and
Joanne Lockwood: only time, it's not like you can say, right, that was brilliant, we'll do it
Joanne Lockwood: again tomorrow and the day after, the day after. It's very hard to learn the
Joanne Lockwood: lesson because even next year something will be different. It'll be a slightly
Joanne Lockwood: different field, a slight different weather condition, slight different stage crew or something.
Joanne Lockwood: At least I had the luck in this NAFFI that the building wasn't going to
Joanne Lockwood: change and the stage wasn't going to change, and generally thing was pretty static.
Joanne Lockwood: It was just a case of weeding somebody and put them on the stage and
Joanne Lockwood: they got on with no hats off to you. That must have
Joanne Lockwood: been a big learning exercise. And it was
Michael Cerasi: wonderful to work with the team at By Pride as well. And I've
Michael Cerasi: made some friends for life. From the people that I've
Michael Cerasi: met there. I can imagine those sort of things.
Joanne Lockwood: They're quite bonding, aren't they? That shared experience is
Joanne Lockwood: really powerful. Definitely.
Joanne Lockwood: So you mentioned this queer community, this online magazine.
Joanne Lockwood: Tell me a bit more about that. We're hoping to launch in
Michael Cerasi: September. The aim of the magazine is to
Michael Cerasi: amplify the voices of LGBT Plus and its
Michael Cerasi: allies. We want to make it a really inclusive
Michael Cerasi: magazine and share the stories of real
Michael Cerasi: people. So it could be, let's
Michael Cerasi: say, your next door neighbour giving their story about
Michael Cerasi: their, for example, I don't know, gender identity or their sexual
Michael Cerasi: orientation, or it could be nothing to do with that,
Michael Cerasi: it could be anything
Michael Cerasi: under the sun. But we just want to have a
Michael Cerasi: magazine that is a home
Michael Cerasi: somewhere, a safe space where people feel welcome and
Michael Cerasi: able to kind of learn about each other and interact.
Joanne Lockwood: So have you got any guests lined up, features lined
Joanne Lockwood: up?
Michael Cerasi: Well, if you don't mind me sharing, we're hoping to feature
Michael Cerasi: you in our first issue.
Joanne Lockwood: If I ever pull my finger out and get it back. To
Michael Cerasi: which I'm really excited to
Michael Cerasi: include you because you have such a powerful story in all of
Michael Cerasi: your work that you're doing. And I
Michael Cerasi: can't wait to kind of see the article that you
Michael Cerasi: write and the content that you share with us.
Joanne Lockwood: That's a good bit of chasing up, isn't it? I can't wait to the article
Joanne Lockwood: I'm going to write either.
Joanne Lockwood: Maybe I need some coaching on how to unlock that.
Michael Cerasi: But also we're a small team now. We're all volunteers
Michael Cerasi: and I've spoken to them about you and they're also very excited
Michael Cerasi: to hear more about your story. And
Michael Cerasi: it's great that in these difficult times of the pandemic,
Michael Cerasi: we're all open to kind of offer our time for free to make
Michael Cerasi: this online magazine a reality and to
Michael Cerasi: help others along the way. I'm really thankful that my
Michael Cerasi: team is there to make it happen.
Joanne Lockwood: So you mentioned that you identify as by yourself.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I'm sure you do.
Joanne Lockwood: I certainly do come across a lot of misunderstandings of what that means, what
Joanne Lockwood: that term is. Even within the LGBT community,
Joanne Lockwood: it's still often misunderstood identity.
Joanne Lockwood: Do you want to take this opportunity just to maybe sort of tell our listeners
Joanne Lockwood: what being bi means to you?
Michael Cerasi: Being bi means that I'm
Michael Cerasi: attracted to anyone
Michael Cerasi: beyond gender. So it doesn't necessarily
Michael Cerasi: just mean that I'm attracted to just men or just women
Michael Cerasi: or both. And it's not trans
Michael Cerasi: exclusionary either. A lot of people make that assumption
Michael Cerasi: and it doesn't exclude non binary people
Michael Cerasi: either. I think
Michael Cerasi: for a person that's bi, they're just open to
Michael Cerasi: any gender in that sense, but different
Michael Cerasi: bi people have their own definitions of what being bi
Michael Cerasi: is. But this is my personal definition. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And whenever I talk about identities, it's how you identify
Joanne Lockwood: and how you would describe it. That's the important thing. And other people, as
Joanne Lockwood: you say, may have a different definition, but no one should
Joanne Lockwood: be arguing about who's more right on that. It's about how you feel and how
Joanne Lockwood: I feel about my identity because I get
Joanne Lockwood: myself confused about whether I'm straight, bi or
Joanne Lockwood: pan because I'm still married to the person I
Joanne Lockwood: married 30 years ago. Their
Joanne Lockwood: gender and sexuality hasn't changed, but my
Joanne Lockwood: gender has. And people get very curious about how I now
Joanne Lockwood: identify and I would rather not identify as anything other
Joanne Lockwood: than married. It's kind of my identity as married to
Joanne Lockwood: a spouse who's a woman. But
Joanne Lockwood: I often locked onto using pansexual as a term
Joanne Lockwood: pan because that, for me, if you get the
Joanne Lockwood: Wikipedia definition out, pan is more how you describe
Joanne Lockwood: your definition of bi, which is more of a contemporary
Joanne Lockwood: identity way of describing bisexuality. So I
Joanne Lockwood: was curious about how you saw yourself in relation to the term
Joanne Lockwood: pan. Maybe for me, I view bi and
Michael Cerasi: pan interchangeably. I would
Michael Cerasi: very much be open to calling myself pan as well.
Michael Cerasi: But the thing is that when you
Michael Cerasi: tell people a lot of people have no idea what pan is,
Michael Cerasi: so that's why it just tends to be more comfortable to tell
Michael Cerasi: people I'm bi, whereas I probably identify
Michael Cerasi: more as pan. On the Wikipedia
Joanne Lockwood: definitions, it's more pan, but your definition of
Joanne Lockwood: by is pan or pan buy. So it's just that you're
Joanne Lockwood: comfortable. I get what you mean. Sometimes you've got to go for the easy
Joanne Lockwood: phrase to fit in with the masses, haven't you?
Michael Cerasi: Unfortunately, as you mentioned, there's a lot of stigma around
Michael Cerasi: being bi. Also even more stigma about
Michael Cerasi: being bi and male.
Michael Cerasi: So I've been told to my face by people that bisexuality
Michael Cerasi: doesn't exist, or that I'm just on the way to
Michael Cerasi: becoming gay, or
Michael Cerasi: that I'm too greedy, or that I could never be faithful, or
Michael Cerasi: that I'm just doing it for the
Michael Cerasi: attention, which is I personally believe
Michael Cerasi: that it's very sad. And I guess my response to that
Michael Cerasi: is, I do exist. I'm not the Tooth Fairy or Father
Michael Cerasi: Christmas,
Michael Cerasi: and it's something that
Michael Cerasi: people should become more aware of in many
Michael Cerasi: cases. And I thought being trans was complicated. I mean,
Joanne Lockwood: it sounds like you've got the same sort of challenges. People
Joanne Lockwood: think I'm the Tooth Fairy sometimes as well.
Michael Cerasi: I think the trans community and the bi community
Michael Cerasi: can help each other out in many ways and support
Michael Cerasi: each other in terms of raising awareness for each other.
Michael Cerasi: And
Michael Cerasi: my purpose is to help kind of educate people
Michael Cerasi: in understanding sexual orientation
Michael Cerasi: or not judging people from what they might have heard.
Joanne Lockwood: Is that why you call yourself the Rainbow Coach? Is it?
Michael Cerasi: So I chose the Rainbow Coach because,
Michael Cerasi: first of all, a rainbow is extremely colourful and joyous.
Michael Cerasi: Second of all, it has the myth
Michael Cerasi: of going towards a pot of gold
Michael Cerasi: if you follow the rainbow. And so I quite like that idea
Michael Cerasi: of kind of following your journey to find your pot of gold. And your
Michael Cerasi: pot of gold could be whatever goal you
Michael Cerasi: give yourself. Also,
Michael Cerasi: obviously, because I specialise with working
Michael Cerasi: with the LGBT plus community, the rainbow
Michael Cerasi: flag is symbolic for them in terms of Pride and it's what
Michael Cerasi: makes up the Pride flag itself.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I'm not sure how many people realise
Joanne Lockwood: this, but the Pride flag or the LGBT flag or
Joanne Lockwood: the rainbow flag isn't actually the same colours as a rainbow in the
Joanne Lockwood: sky, is it? The Pride flag has six
Joanne Lockwood: colours. It used to have pink, but apparently
Joanne Lockwood: it was hard to get hold of or something at the time when they're producing
Joanne Lockwood: them, so they dropped it. So there was a hot pink in there, wasn't there?
Michael Cerasi: There was a hot pink and a turquoise. Yeah. And they blended those
Joanne Lockwood: colours out because they're hard to reproduce or they were difficult to get hold of.
Joanne Lockwood: What we got now is not a rainbow rainbow. It is the Pride
Joanne Lockwood: flag. And people often don't get
Joanne Lockwood: confused about a rainbow and a Pride flag,
Joanne Lockwood: but they are different things and different colours, although most people don't notice,
Joanne Lockwood: which is. Very disappointing for me on a personal level, because they got rid of
Michael Cerasi: turquoise. And I'm half Turkish,
Michael Cerasi: so it's the colour from my country.
Joanne Lockwood: Is that where the name comes from? Is it Frenchism of Turkey?
Michael Cerasi: Yeah. I believe that it was derived from
Michael Cerasi: Turkey. Exactly. Because turquoise sounds
Joanne Lockwood: French to me. In my sort of language,
Joanne Lockwood: it would. Be pronounced originally as chocoise, which is in French.
Michael Cerasi: That's right. And that's of
Joanne Lockwood: Turkey. Exactly. From Turkish origin.
Joanne Lockwood: Okay. Well, if nothing else, this podcast, we've heard that
Joanne Lockwood: today where Turkey came from. Where turquoise came from, but also
Michael Cerasi: now we also have an even
Michael Cerasi: more inclusive flag with the brown and black colour
Michael Cerasi: that has been added. Or there's another flag as well, with
Michael Cerasi: the trans symbol as well. So there are several flags
Michael Cerasi: that we can be using.
Joanne Lockwood: There's lots of debate within the we call it a community.
Joanne Lockwood: We call it in the LGBT population, whichever word sort of seems
Joanne Lockwood: to fit about these different flags and
Joanne Lockwood: whether we're being too inclusionary now or whether we've complicated things and
Joanne Lockwood: supporting everybody, I'm sure that debate will go far onto the future
Joanne Lockwood: and probably nothing we could contribute right here. But yeah, there are lots
Joanne Lockwood: of I did some research myself on Pride flags around
Joanne Lockwood: gender identities, and I'm trying to pull together a collection of them.
Joanne Lockwood: And just looking at different identities is such
Joanne Lockwood: a lot of different ways people do
Joanne Lockwood: relate to their own gender, from grey to
Joanne Lockwood: demi and various other ones, which
Joanne Lockwood: I think when we started this off, this conversation earlier, we talked about how
Joanne Lockwood: you identify how you describe yourself. And if there's not a phrase that
Joanne Lockwood: describes you in the way you describe yourself, then this is where people
Joanne Lockwood: are evolving these identities to allow them to feel more comfortable with that
Joanne Lockwood: as a definition of who they are. I think as long as the flags
Michael Cerasi: bring us together rather than see us apart, that's the main
Michael Cerasi: goal in itself. Just more like the Olympic
Joanne Lockwood: flags rather than the football team flags, where people are competing. This is kind
Joanne Lockwood: of competing together as a collaborative sort
Joanne Lockwood: of celebration of each other rather than against each other.
Michael Cerasi: Exactly. We should celebrate each other rather than pit
Michael Cerasi: ourselves against each other.
Joanne Lockwood: So what things have you overcome in your life, then,
Joanne Lockwood: when you coached yourself? Kind of things have you overcome?
Michael Cerasi: I would say I found it challenging in terms of accepting who I
Michael Cerasi: am and choosing to lead an authentic
Michael Cerasi: life. I guess
Michael Cerasi: because of the stigma around being bisexual, it took me a long time,
Michael Cerasi: first of all, to learn about
Michael Cerasi: what bisexual was when I was growing
Michael Cerasi: up. It wasn't a term that was used very
Michael Cerasi: commonly, and also
Michael Cerasi: because of the stigma around it, it probably delayed
Michael Cerasi: me into coming to terms with my own sexual
Michael Cerasi: orientation. And so
Michael Cerasi: today, now, for me, it's a constant
Michael Cerasi: choice to kind of live authentically and to
Michael Cerasi: be myself. And it's something that
Michael Cerasi: I now have the luxury to be able to choose.
Joanne Lockwood: Is the word authentic authenticity? Is it an overused and
Joanne Lockwood: abused term? It is, because I've seen what I would call
Joanne Lockwood: influencers and role models on Instagram and
Joanne Lockwood: YouTubers, using the fact they're
Joanne Lockwood: authentic as an excuse to be rude,
Joanne Lockwood: to be nasty to people.
Joanne Lockwood: So how would you sort of see authentic
Joanne Lockwood: should be seen? I
Michael Cerasi: think authentic should be seen as having the power to be your
Michael Cerasi: true self and to be unique and to
Michael Cerasi: for example, we started off the call about superpowers.
Michael Cerasi: So knowing your own superpowers and being able to embrace
Michael Cerasi: those as well. Of course any
Michael Cerasi: word can be used in the wrong way and
Michael Cerasi: unfortunately, authentic can, as you've
Michael Cerasi: said online, be used in a negative sense.
Michael Cerasi: And a lot of people do use it on social media. But I think
Michael Cerasi: it's because we didn't have the awareness
Michael Cerasi: before or we didn't necessarily allow ourselves to be
Michael Cerasi: authentic in the past and this is now. We're in a time
Michael Cerasi: of change in that and people are slowly opening themselves up to
Michael Cerasi: their own identities. So
Joanne Lockwood: it's not an excuse to be rude. It's not an excuse to hide behind my
Joanne Lockwood: authenticity or actually what they're saying is
Joanne Lockwood: authentically. I'm a bad person on the inside and I'm just showing this.
Joanne Lockwood: It's kind of what they're saying, isn't it, really? By being openly authentic,
Joanne Lockwood: telling the truth, it's not authenticity. I would
Michael Cerasi: say there's never an excuse to be rude, to be honest.
Michael Cerasi: You'd hope people wouldn't be.
Joanne Lockwood: But I've seen many conversations
Joanne Lockwood: on some of these platforms where people are using the word they're
Joanne Lockwood: banning around the word authentic like some sort of
Joanne Lockwood: right to express themselves because they're just being authentic
Joanne Lockwood: about what they think. Well, obviously
Joanne Lockwood: maturity comes into that lived experience.
Joanne Lockwood: Not wishing to put other people down and thinking about the good things
Joanne Lockwood: that come out of authenticity, which is about understanding about self expression,
Joanne Lockwood: understanding about identity, understanding speaking from the eye, speaking from with your
Joanne Lockwood: passion and speaking with your own desires is more the authenticity I would start
Joanne Lockwood: from. Yes, I think it's also remembering that authenticity comes
Michael Cerasi: from you. So a lot of people
Michael Cerasi: might think that for me, as a life coach, I'm just going to tell
Michael Cerasi: them what authenticity is and then give them
Michael Cerasi: the step by step plan of how to become more authentic.
Michael Cerasi: In actual fact, that's not the case. I
Michael Cerasi: could spend 1000 hours with a client and I still won't know them as well
Michael Cerasi: as they know themselves. And in that
Michael Cerasi: being said, they might choose specific stories
Michael Cerasi: to tell me and might not tell me their complete
Michael Cerasi: self. So I work with my clients to be able
Michael Cerasi: to enable them or to be able to uplift them, to be able to
Michael Cerasi: give them more recognition of themselves,
Michael Cerasi: to be able to feel empowered and
Michael Cerasi: to understand that authenticity within themselves.
Joanne Lockwood: That is really powerful.
Joanne Lockwood: I don't think I discovered what authenticity meant
Joanne Lockwood: to me until I transitioned.
Joanne Lockwood: At that point there, I think I was so brought up
Joanne Lockwood: on the escalator of life, just heading in a direction that I didn't
Joanne Lockwood: ever stop in question who I was, what my values
Joanne Lockwood: were. And I think that's often the case for many people, that
Joanne Lockwood: unless they have some checkpoint in their life where it
Joanne Lockwood: causes them to reflect that you off blindly follow
Joanne Lockwood: this course without even thinking about it.
Michael Cerasi: I think we mentioned challenges earlier on. I think
Michael Cerasi: for me, I did have challenges in terms of accepting my
Michael Cerasi: sexual orientation, but also
Michael Cerasi: in terms of accepting myself
Michael Cerasi: for who I am. I personally am
Michael Cerasi: not the most masculine of men, and it's something that
Michael Cerasi: I did try to hide for a very long amount of time and
Michael Cerasi: not embrace my feminine side because I felt that at the
Michael Cerasi: time, it just wasn't perceived very
Michael Cerasi: well. And that's something that I've worked on in myself
Michael Cerasi: to kind of be more open to my feminine side
Michael Cerasi: and embrace. That
Joanne Lockwood: the world hasn't stopped and everything's carried on.
Joanne Lockwood: And you're still okay. Yes, exactly.
Joanne Lockwood: He talked about some of the stuff you're doing at the moment, so more happy
Joanne Lockwood: by Pride pre community, your workshop on
Joanne Lockwood: thriving and change and challenge and uncertainty and your
Joanne Lockwood: podcast coming out. What does kind of like
Joanne Lockwood: the future hold for you? Where are you going with your life? Or are
Joanne Lockwood: you just wandering around, see what happens? So
Michael Cerasi: I'm hoping to help more and more people
Michael Cerasi: with my coaching. My coaching is
Michael Cerasi: all done online, so it means that I'm able to access more and more
Michael Cerasi: people. And even during this kind of
Michael Cerasi: corona pandemic time, we're still able to communicate
Michael Cerasi: in that sense. And I'd like to be able to,
Michael Cerasi: with the magazine, raise more awareness of the
Michael Cerasi: LGBTQ plus community. And
Michael Cerasi: I want to be able to kind of grow my network
Michael Cerasi: to be able to help more people.
Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. So people are trying to get hold of you. How do people get
Joanne Lockwood: hold of you? Obviously, you'd welcome people to connect with you
Joanne Lockwood: on things like LinkedIn or Instagram. How do they find you?
Michael Cerasi: So, yeah, they're welcome to connect with me on LinkedIn. I have my
Michael Cerasi: website, https://TheRainbowCoach.com, or they
Michael Cerasi: can connect with me on Instagram at The underscore
Michael Cerasi: "_" Rainbow underscore "_" Coach.
Joanne Lockwood: And your name is Cerasi, which is
Joanne Lockwood: C-E-R-A-S-I. For those who are trying to Google yours
Joanne Lockwood: or type you into LinkedIn. Yeah, that's right. It actually means cherry tree in
Michael Cerasi: another language. Oh, wow, that's beautiful.
Michael Cerasi: So michael tarassi. That's right. I hope
Michael Cerasi: so.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. That's really great. Well, many. Thank you, Michael. I'm sure that the listeners will
Joanne Lockwood: agree there's much to ponder there and take inspiration from, and I
Joanne Lockwood: really appreciate everyone's time for tuning in and listening today. So
Joanne Lockwood: please do subscribe to keep updated on future episodes of
Joanne Lockwood: the Inclusion Bites podcast that's B-I-T-E-S. Please
Joanne Lockwood: tell your friends, please tell your colleagues. I have a number of exciting
Joanne Lockwood: guests lined up and I'm sure you'll be inspired by them over the next weeks
Joanne Lockwood: and months, whenever this lockdown may end.
Joanne Lockwood: So remember, if you'd like to be a guest, please let me know. You're most
Joanne Lockwood: welcome. And if you have any feedback or suggestions, then please do send me a
Joanne Lockwood: message to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Joanne Lockwood: - that's jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk for
Joanne Lockwood: any of the future shows or how we can improve. So it's been
Joanne Lockwood: a pleasure. And if you hadn't worked out already, my name is Joanne Lockwood, and
Joanne Lockwood: I've been your host, the Inclusion Bites Podcast today. Catch you next
Joanne Lockwood: time.