WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.730 --> 00:00:04.446 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for 2 00:00:04.468 --> 00:00:08.126 the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be 3 00:00:08.148 --> 00:00:11.934 interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around 4 00:00:11.972 --> 00:00:15.726 the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a 5 00:00:15.748 --> 00:00:19.038 better place for everyone to thrive in. If you'd like to join me in the 6 00:00:19.044 --> 00:00:21.118 future, then please do drop me a line to 7 00:00:21.204 --> 00:00:25.590 jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 8 00:00:25.740 --> 00:00:29.174 You'll be able to catch up with all of the shows on itunes, Spotify and 9 00:00:29.212 --> 00:00:32.834 all of the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a. Decaf 10 00:00:32.882 --> 00:00:36.514 and let's get going. Today is episode 11 00:00:36.562 --> 00:00:40.202 eight with the title how the Term Queer Became Cool 12 00:00:40.256 --> 00:00:43.866 Again. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by 13 00:00:43.888 --> 00:00:47.738 Joseph Galliano. I met Joe following an introduction from a 14 00:00:47.744 --> 00:00:51.466 mutual friend, Kate Bosnsworth, who was the CMO at 15 00:00:51.488 --> 00:00:55.134 M&C Saachi. She thought we'd have loads to talk. About and we 16 00:00:55.172 --> 00:00:58.894 did, and I don't. Think we've stopped talking since. Joe is the co 17 00:00:58.932 --> 00:01:02.366 founder and CEO of Queer Britain, a charity working to 18 00:01:02.388 --> 00:01:06.046 establish the first national LGBTQ Plus museum. 19 00:01:06.158 --> 00:01:09.682 But he's been a journalist, editor of the Gay Times, 20 00:01:09.816 --> 00:01:12.894 a book editor, a third sector major donor 21 00:01:12.942 --> 00:01:16.606 fundraiser, an ambassador manager and a senior corporate 22 00:01:16.638 --> 00:01:20.374 network leader. Surprised? I guess I can't do anything else. And I asked 23 00:01:20.412 --> 00:01:23.670 Joe to describe his. Superpower and he said, 24 00:01:23.820 --> 00:01:27.218 other people. So. Hello, Joe. 25 00:01:27.314 --> 00:01:31.126 Welcome to the show. Hello. I'm 26 00:01:31.158 --> 00:01:33.580 exhausted hearing that. I think I need to have a lie down. 27 00:01:35.630 --> 00:01:38.060 Well, we'll have plenty of time for that later, I'm sure. 28 00:01:39.070 --> 00:01:42.382 So tell me, how did the term Queer become cool 29 00:01:42.436 --> 00:01:46.190 again? It's funny, because we had quite a long 30 00:01:46.340 --> 00:01:49.726 discussion as an organisation about what we were going to call ourselves, which 31 00:01:49.748 --> 00:01:53.506 was that was always the hardest thing to 32 00:01:53.528 --> 00:01:56.740 do, really, in the early stages. And 33 00:01:57.670 --> 00:02:01.506 we really thought about what is it that young people in particular, how 34 00:02:01.528 --> 00:02:05.374 do they refer to themselves now, and 35 00:02:05.512 --> 00:02:09.174 what is also the most inclusive term under that big long 36 00:02:09.212 --> 00:02:12.582 acronym that rolls on and on? 37 00:02:12.716 --> 00:02:16.374 And Queer was the only moniker under 38 00:02:16.412 --> 00:02:19.466 that acronym that actually everybody can stand 39 00:02:19.648 --> 00:02:23.306 underneath. So for us, it was about being as inclusive as 40 00:02:23.328 --> 00:02:27.146 possible. But also, I 41 00:02:27.168 --> 00:02:29.100 think it's that last little bit of 42 00:02:30.210 --> 00:02:33.566 reclaiming, because it's still 43 00:02:33.668 --> 00:02:35.360 problematic for a lot of people 44 00:02:37.570 --> 00:02:41.374 yeah. Of a certain generation. I know many people that when they hear that 45 00:02:41.412 --> 00:02:43.650 word, it sends shivers down their spine. 46 00:02:45.030 --> 00:02:48.050 They've heard it so many times as a word of abuse 47 00:02:48.390 --> 00:02:52.158 directed towards them. I guess it's 48 00:02:52.174 --> 00:02:55.918 about time. It's definitely been a stick 49 00:02:56.094 --> 00:02:59.734 to beat people and it has 50 00:02:59.772 --> 00:03:02.920 been used for a long time, I think. Right back to 51 00:03:03.370 --> 00:03:06.310 Lord Queensbury, oscar Wilde 52 00:03:06.890 --> 00:03:10.358 Bosey's father, oscar Wilde's lover's 53 00:03:10.374 --> 00:03:12.620 father, who 54 00:03:14.030 --> 00:03:16.860 used queer in that pejorative sense. 55 00:03:19.550 --> 00:03:23.294 One of the things I thought was quite I certainly make absolutely no claim to 56 00:03:23.332 --> 00:03:26.640 having been key in 57 00:03:27.410 --> 00:03:29.680 disarming that word. But 58 00:03:31.410 --> 00:03:34.810 if you go back to the early ninety s and you look at an organisation 59 00:03:34.890 --> 00:03:38.514 like group like Queer Nation, which was a split off 60 00:03:38.552 --> 00:03:41.650 from the HIV AIDS 61 00:03:41.990 --> 00:03:44.500 activist group Act Up. And 62 00:03:45.910 --> 00:03:49.430 they obviously embraced the word queer 63 00:03:50.010 --> 00:03:52.310 as an act of radical defiance. 64 00:03:54.330 --> 00:03:58.074 Yeah, I think the the fact that. Most people 65 00:03:58.112 --> 00:04:01.882 now use LGBTQ Plus, the queue obviously being 66 00:04:01.936 --> 00:04:05.770 queer, it's gained acceptance and 67 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:09.418 it's belonging normal conversation. It's part of the acronym, if you 68 00:04:09.424 --> 00:04:12.542 like, for anyone who doesn't identify either 69 00:04:12.596 --> 00:04:15.470 sexually or gender 70 00:04:16.450 --> 00:04:20.206 hetero, CIS, normative, if you like. It's a term for anyone who wants 71 00:04:20.228 --> 00:04:24.078 to be who is just themselves. It's 72 00:04:24.094 --> 00:04:27.570 that kind of sexual and gender nonconforming 73 00:04:27.990 --> 00:04:31.794 and I think there's a beautiful plasticity to 74 00:04:31.832 --> 00:04:35.630 it that it can 75 00:04:35.640 --> 00:04:38.886 be embraced to mean what you want it to mean 76 00:04:39.068 --> 00:04:42.886 and outside of kind 77 00:04:42.908 --> 00:04:46.646 of academic circles, I think that's what people do with it and 78 00:04:46.748 --> 00:04:50.482 that's what I find most exciting about it. Yeah. Personally 79 00:04:50.546 --> 00:04:54.346 I'm quite comfortable describing myself as queer in 80 00:04:54.368 --> 00:04:58.042 a queer community around queer people. I think if someone, 81 00:04:58.096 --> 00:05:01.934 as you said, used it pejoratively or weaponized it against me, I'd find it 82 00:05:01.972 --> 00:05:05.578 offensive but as an I am moniker 83 00:05:05.674 --> 00:05:09.262 it works quite. Well for me and that's about control and self 84 00:05:09.316 --> 00:05:12.080 identification, isn't that? Yeah, completely. 85 00:05:12.950 --> 00:05:16.226 Where does the power reside in the use of a 86 00:05:16.248 --> 00:05:19.700 word? If you can take it and use it for yourself 87 00:05:21.270 --> 00:05:25.006 and you can use it affectionately, then you're holding 88 00:05:25.038 --> 00:05:28.866 that power and I think that it 89 00:05:28.888 --> 00:05:31.570 comes back to exactly like you say, though the intent, 90 00:05:32.470 --> 00:05:36.230 where is the violent? If there's violent intent, then actually you hear the violence 91 00:05:37.550 --> 00:05:41.034 rather than the word. Yeah, I suppose you could use any word with 92 00:05:41.072 --> 00:05:43.690 violent intent and it would sound violent. 93 00:05:45.310 --> 00:05:48.854 Flowers. Don't 94 00:05:48.902 --> 00:05:51.710 you dare hit me with those flowers. 95 00:05:54.050 --> 00:05:57.280 With the right intent or the wrong intent, you can weaponize anything, I guess, 96 00:05:59.170 --> 00:06:02.758 as you say, by reclaiming the queer and identity that I'm proud 97 00:06:02.794 --> 00:06:06.578 of, I own that and I take the power back. So I 98 00:06:06.584 --> 00:06:09.826 completely understand that. And this is why also, 99 00:06:10.008 --> 00:06:13.700 particularly for some older people in particular 100 00:06:14.230 --> 00:06:17.990 who have had it used against them as a slur, 101 00:06:20.890 --> 00:06:24.614 it can be hard for people to kind of step outside, step away from that 102 00:06:24.652 --> 00:06:25.240 pain, 103 00:06:28.330 --> 00:06:32.006 which is tough. So 104 00:06:32.188 --> 00:06:35.640 you had this crazy idea of 105 00:06:36.170 --> 00:06:39.110 co founding the first LGBT 106 00:06:40.050 --> 00:06:43.566 museum in the UK, or 107 00:06:43.748 --> 00:06:46.990 fixed space LGBTQ Plus Museum. 108 00:06:47.570 --> 00:06:51.166 There's been many roaming ones, hasn't there? But this is kind of the first one. 109 00:06:51.188 --> 00:06:54.962 You're aiming to have a fixed permanent home? Yeah, I mean, there have been 110 00:06:55.096 --> 00:06:58.786 plenty of really good exhibitions and 111 00:06:58.968 --> 00:07:02.546 great community projects and so 112 00:07:02.568 --> 00:07:06.294 forth. This is the first, actually not 113 00:07:06.332 --> 00:07:09.686 the first attempt to get project like this up and 114 00:07:09.708 --> 00:07:12.520 running, but the first attempt for a while 115 00:07:13.370 --> 00:07:16.818 to establish a national bricks and mortar 116 00:07:16.914 --> 00:07:20.646 museum. We'll also always do 117 00:07:20.668 --> 00:07:24.330 pop ups around the country and so forth, but 118 00:07:24.400 --> 00:07:28.026 it feels like bricks and mortar is a really important thing in terms of the 119 00:07:28.048 --> 00:07:31.040 sort of symbolism of what does it mean? In terms of 120 00:07:33.090 --> 00:07:36.766 how do we show, as a country whose stories and artefacts we 121 00:07:36.788 --> 00:07:40.174 value and how can we own them for ourselves as 122 00:07:40.212 --> 00:07:43.890 well? So that was the why? That was the reason 123 00:07:43.960 --> 00:07:47.154 that you felt it was important to create this sort of 124 00:07:47.192 --> 00:07:50.462 snapshot, this storytelling, 125 00:07:50.606 --> 00:07:53.460 capturing the lives and the moments of people 126 00:07:54.550 --> 00:07:57.974 for future generations, queer and non queer people. Yeah. And 127 00:07:58.012 --> 00:08:01.254 actually, that's absolutely, really 128 00:08:01.292 --> 00:08:04.726 vital, is that we think of it as the 129 00:08:04.748 --> 00:08:08.406 LGBTQ plus museum for all, regardless of sexuality or 130 00:08:08.428 --> 00:08:12.278 gender identity. I keep coming back to it's. The image and I know we've 131 00:08:12.294 --> 00:08:15.946 talked about this before, but it's the image of young woman who's just come out 132 00:08:15.968 --> 00:08:19.686 to a mother and trying to create somewhere 133 00:08:19.718 --> 00:08:23.230 that they can both go to together so they can both come away feeling 134 00:08:24.450 --> 00:08:27.818 excited to be a part of this set of communities 135 00:08:27.994 --> 00:08:31.694 and understanding their own family a lot 136 00:08:31.732 --> 00:08:35.186 better and coming away just excited with the 137 00:08:35.208 --> 00:08:38.980 possibilities of the world and all it can offer. 138 00:08:39.990 --> 00:08:42.900 So have you found it's been received by, 139 00:08:43.430 --> 00:08:46.578 A, I suppose, the queer community, and B, by the non queer community? Have you 140 00:08:46.584 --> 00:08:50.342 found there's a real kind of yeah, we need this, 141 00:08:50.396 --> 00:08:54.166 or has it been a struggle? No, I've been 142 00:08:54.188 --> 00:08:57.382 pushing against it feels like I've been pushing against one open door after 143 00:08:57.436 --> 00:09:01.098 another. It feels like an idea whose time 144 00:09:01.264 --> 00:09:02.460 really has come. 145 00:09:06.830 --> 00:09:10.414 It's so funny, Joe, because I started off, in some 146 00:09:10.452 --> 00:09:14.094 ways, just sort of thinking, like, what's the most exciting thing I could do right 147 00:09:14.132 --> 00:09:15.840 now? And 148 00:09:18.210 --> 00:09:21.886 I knew emotionally what it meant to me. I 149 00:09:21.908 --> 00:09:25.682 know emotionally what it would have meant for me to see myself better 150 00:09:25.736 --> 00:09:28.770 reflected in the culture. 151 00:09:30.950 --> 00:09:34.740 I hadn't somehow made that leap as to how that would feel for other people. 152 00:09:35.290 --> 00:09:38.520 Quite often I've been talking to people about what we're doing, 153 00:09:38.970 --> 00:09:41.960 actually, strangely, in business meetings or 154 00:09:43.610 --> 00:09:45.430 with community activists, 155 00:09:47.950 --> 00:09:51.766 and you suddenly realise that they're talking to you, but there's 156 00:09:51.798 --> 00:09:55.626 a tear in it, they've kind of welled up. And 157 00:09:55.808 --> 00:09:58.540 I think the first few times that happened, 158 00:10:00.210 --> 00:10:03.950 that was a real signal for me, that it was like, okay, 159 00:10:04.100 --> 00:10:07.694 this is really important, this is something to be 160 00:10:07.732 --> 00:10:11.520 carried with a great sense of responsibility. And 161 00:10:13.110 --> 00:10:16.562 I feel very privileged to be able 162 00:10:16.616 --> 00:10:20.322 to do everything in my power to hold 163 00:10:20.376 --> 00:10:22.500 that and make that happen. 164 00:10:23.990 --> 00:10:27.630 So I suppose in the same way that a church is not 165 00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:31.446 the building, it's the people. The Cream museum, effectively, is the community, 166 00:10:31.548 --> 00:10:34.978 the people coming together, the memories it holds that you treasure 167 00:10:35.074 --> 00:10:38.918 beyond just the bricks and mortar. Yes. Although I see the bricks 168 00:10:38.934 --> 00:10:42.330 and mortar being a very strong signal, 169 00:10:43.150 --> 00:10:45.660 and that's kind of 170 00:10:46.910 --> 00:10:50.442 creating the what would the 171 00:10:50.496 --> 00:10:54.346 right word be? The crucible for the beacon to be sitting 172 00:10:54.378 --> 00:10:58.126 in, so that that can be then seen around the world 173 00:10:58.228 --> 00:11:01.850 and so that people can see the value in these stories. 174 00:11:01.930 --> 00:11:05.780 And understand why this is important, that this is important. 175 00:11:06.790 --> 00:11:10.340 Some sort of North Star shining light that everyone could focus on. 176 00:11:13.430 --> 00:11:17.186 One of the things that I became, I suppose, aware of when I first 177 00:11:17.208 --> 00:11:20.310 met you, we started talking about this. It was just a conversation 178 00:11:20.650 --> 00:11:24.246 over a coffee in a cafe, effectively, I 179 00:11:24.268 --> 00:11:27.638 think. Then I came to some of the launch events and I met some of 180 00:11:27.644 --> 00:11:31.306 the other people who are involved with the project. And I think you hear so 181 00:11:31.328 --> 00:11:35.146 much from the community, or wherever the community is. The 182 00:11:35.168 --> 00:11:38.630 population of people who are queer about negativity, 183 00:11:38.710 --> 00:11:41.118 around business, around 184 00:11:41.284 --> 00:11:44.800 Pinkwashing, around the government, 185 00:11:45.490 --> 00:11:49.294 MPs, parliament, civil service, not representing or not 186 00:11:49.332 --> 00:11:53.070 considering queer people. But what I was struck by was 187 00:11:53.140 --> 00:11:56.706 the depth and breadth of people involved with the project, who are 188 00:11:56.728 --> 00:11:59.906 sponsoring it, who are promoting it, who are happy to stand shoulder to 189 00:11:59.928 --> 00:12:03.666 shoulder with the museum from that 190 00:12:03.688 --> 00:12:07.446 launch at Dover House. Number of people there and the Demershire Club, the 191 00:12:07.468 --> 00:12:11.046 one there. There was such a number of diverse people 192 00:12:11.228 --> 00:12:14.646 from all over. Okay, maybe the privileged side of 193 00:12:14.668 --> 00:12:18.506 London, maybe. To be fair, we started off with 194 00:12:18.688 --> 00:12:21.500 very much a focus on developing a donor community. 195 00:12:22.430 --> 00:12:23.820 In those early days, 196 00:12:26.990 --> 00:12:30.730 there was definitely privilege in those rooms. 197 00:12:32.110 --> 00:12:35.886 You need that to get things going. But I felt it's being wielded for the 198 00:12:35.908 --> 00:12:39.534 benefit of the community. It wasn't privileged for privilege sake. It's privileged using its 199 00:12:39.572 --> 00:12:43.230 privilege for amplification and to 200 00:12:43.380 --> 00:12:47.106 establish this and be a part of it and be proud. And 201 00:12:47.128 --> 00:12:50.754 to be proud. I mean, there's many people who are not 202 00:12:50.792 --> 00:12:54.546 proud to be openly queer. But in those rooms there were people who 203 00:12:54.568 --> 00:12:58.166 were prepared to be openly queer. And back the project. 204 00:12:58.348 --> 00:13:01.654 And what is wonderful is the amount of times those people, they 205 00:13:01.692 --> 00:13:05.480 say, how can I help? And that 206 00:13:06.250 --> 00:13:09.686 some of the most powerful four words you can hear, aren't they? 207 00:13:09.708 --> 00:13:13.226 Really? Yeah. Because that was a real powerful amount, I think. Last year there was 208 00:13:13.248 --> 00:13:17.098 that event that Coots organised in 440 Strand, wasn't there? 209 00:13:17.104 --> 00:13:20.798 Where they had the massive rainbow stripes on the 210 00:13:20.804 --> 00:13:24.634 outside of their main office, their flagship, global 211 00:13:24.682 --> 00:13:28.506 flagship office in London. I can't 212 00:13:28.538 --> 00:13:31.870 tell you how much that made me both sort of 213 00:13:31.940 --> 00:13:35.354 proud and give a wry 214 00:13:35.402 --> 00:13:39.054 smile. The fact that Coots 215 00:13:39.102 --> 00:13:42.180 had taken such a bold move to 216 00:13:46.310 --> 00:13:49.734 know it's a private bank, that's kind of pretty 217 00:13:49.772 --> 00:13:53.446 conservative type of organisation, one would think the 218 00:13:53.468 --> 00:13:57.286 Queen's Bank. And we've slapped the word queer on the front 219 00:13:57.308 --> 00:14:00.826 of it in one of the most high profile locations in the 220 00:14:00.848 --> 00:14:04.682 country. And you can talk about Pinkwashing. And I don't think 221 00:14:04.736 --> 00:14:08.454 in that particular instance that was a demonstration of Pinkwashing in the slightest. 222 00:14:08.502 --> 00:14:09.660 I think that was done 223 00:14:12.270 --> 00:14:15.920 well within that sector. A bit of bravery, actually. 224 00:14:16.850 --> 00:14:19.966 Yeah, it was. I worked for Coops in the in 225 00:14:19.988 --> 00:14:23.694 the whole place at 440 226 00:14:23.732 --> 00:14:27.486 Strand was so controlled about who could be seen 227 00:14:27.508 --> 00:14:30.900 on the on the banking floor, which entrance you could come into, 228 00:14:31.990 --> 00:14:35.586 which escalator what you were allowed to wear as an 229 00:14:35.608 --> 00:14:39.118 employee. They still have the frock coats. Have frock 230 00:14:39.134 --> 00:14:42.866 coats and they used to have that massive revolving tree 231 00:14:43.058 --> 00:14:46.886 in the foyer right on the ground floor, which used to rotate once every 232 00:14:46.908 --> 00:14:49.880 24 hours really slowly. I didn't know that. 233 00:14:50.250 --> 00:14:53.914 Yeah, you wouldn't notice because it rotated so slowly because 234 00:14:53.952 --> 00:14:57.498 obviously they wanted the tree to grow upwards, not twist and things into the 235 00:14:57.504 --> 00:14:59.770 sunlight, so they had to rotate it. Fantastic. 236 00:15:01.070 --> 00:15:04.460 And a massive koi carp pond in the middle. It was like 237 00:15:04.830 --> 00:15:08.422 still there. I found it clear 238 00:15:08.576 --> 00:15:12.366 that night there were what, 100, 200 people in the 239 00:15:12.388 --> 00:15:15.150 foyer there in a reception 240 00:15:16.210 --> 00:15:19.070 celebrating pride. Celebrating coots's 241 00:15:19.970 --> 00:15:23.538 celebration of pride with queer Britain dead centre. I thought that 242 00:15:23.544 --> 00:15:27.366 was. You know we've done other things with them 243 00:15:27.388 --> 00:15:31.158 as well. They've been sort of happy to introduce us to 244 00:15:31.164 --> 00:15:34.760 some of their clients. They've been happy to 245 00:15:35.770 --> 00:15:39.418 hosted us for a donor dinner and 246 00:15:39.584 --> 00:15:43.114 actually just some of the staff there 247 00:15:43.152 --> 00:15:46.842 are there at the end of the phone when you need to talk things 248 00:15:46.896 --> 00:15:49.100 through. Yeah. 249 00:15:50.510 --> 00:15:53.846 So we're now in June, aren't we? So this 2 June 250 00:15:53.878 --> 00:15:56.960 2020 is it June? I've lost track. 251 00:15:57.890 --> 00:16:00.400 I actually googled the day the other day. 252 00:16:01.810 --> 00:16:05.326 What day is it today? It's funny, my wife and 253 00:16:05.348 --> 00:16:09.166 I had this routine when she was being furloughed. We 254 00:16:09.188 --> 00:16:11.778 lost track of days so we got in the habit of wake up in the 255 00:16:11.784 --> 00:16:14.786 morning shouting out the day of the week it was so we both remember what 256 00:16:14.808 --> 00:16:18.654 day of the week. And religiously we always do pinch punch 257 00:16:18.702 --> 00:16:22.198 the first of the month when we wake up in the morning. It's kind of 258 00:16:22.204 --> 00:16:25.746 like a commando assault on each other. The first one to get in wins. It's 259 00:16:25.778 --> 00:16:29.494 kind of like we've had for years and 260 00:16:29.532 --> 00:16:33.306 sometimes it can get quite over the top. I wouldn't say violent, but 261 00:16:33.328 --> 00:16:37.082 certainly it gets a bit risky with people looping each other and 262 00:16:37.136 --> 00:16:40.886 I've got this app on my phone and I just realised that my lockdown effectively 263 00:16:40.918 --> 00:16:44.266 starts on the 13 March and that's eleven weeks ago and it's 264 00:16:44.298 --> 00:16:46.640 like, where's that time going? 265 00:16:48.530 --> 00:16:52.346 It's funny. How are you coping with it all? How are you? I've 266 00:16:52.378 --> 00:16:56.114 worked from home on and off for quite a while and in the last 267 00:16:56.152 --> 00:16:59.826 couple of years quite a bit. But I'd always intersperse working from 268 00:16:59.848 --> 00:17:03.470 home or working remotely with trips to London, clients 269 00:17:03.550 --> 00:17:06.994 delivering, travelling the world. So this is the first 270 00:17:07.032 --> 00:17:10.674 time I've been consciously at home so 271 00:17:10.712 --> 00:17:14.214 much and occasionally I go a bit stir crazy. I need to get 272 00:17:14.252 --> 00:17:17.926 out. I realise that I haven't really been out much for four or 273 00:17:17.948 --> 00:17:21.098 five days and even then it's just to put the bins out or have a 274 00:17:21.104 --> 00:17:24.778 quick look outside. So we're starting to make the most of the 275 00:17:24.784 --> 00:17:28.620 weekends now. It's socially acceptable to 276 00:17:28.990 --> 00:17:32.506 be out more, to social distance more and to sort of 277 00:17:32.688 --> 00:17:36.334 put some deck chairs in a local park. So, yeah, I'm capping. Okay. 278 00:17:36.452 --> 00:17:40.142 I've got plenty to keep me busy. This podcast, for one, and 279 00:17:40.276 --> 00:17:43.986 having conversations with people on Zoom. Yeah, I'm doing all right. How 280 00:17:44.008 --> 00:17:45.940 about yourself? Yeah, 281 00:17:47.430 --> 00:17:50.706 I'm lucky enough to 282 00:17:50.728 --> 00:17:54.514 be living in a sort of fairly rural part 283 00:17:54.552 --> 00:17:56.310 of North Essex. 284 00:17:58.490 --> 00:18:02.246 We have shops just down the road. Local shops just down the road. 285 00:18:02.348 --> 00:18:05.430 My husband's a gardener, so the garden's lovely. 286 00:18:07.290 --> 00:18:10.902 I think it would be churlish 287 00:18:10.966 --> 00:18:14.774 to say that I haven't been enjoying some aspects of that. I'm certainly not missing 288 00:18:14.822 --> 00:18:18.140 commuting. I was travelling about 4 hours a day, 289 00:18:19.310 --> 00:18:23.086 so I'm not missing that at all. But it does make me 290 00:18:23.108 --> 00:18:26.794 think, what would this be like for the single parent living on the 17th 291 00:18:26.842 --> 00:18:27.470 floor 292 00:18:30.610 --> 00:18:34.270 who doesn't have those luxuries? Must be tough. 293 00:18:35.010 --> 00:18:38.434 Yeah, it's not easy in those situations. We're in a first 294 00:18:38.472 --> 00:18:42.258 floor, two bed flat with one living room, so, yeah, we can 295 00:18:42.264 --> 00:18:44.866 get on top of each other and we don't see a lot of the outside. 296 00:18:44.968 --> 00:18:48.626 There's not a lot out there apart from a road. So, yeah, we do need 297 00:18:48.648 --> 00:18:51.478 to get out of it. But, yeah, you're right. There's a lot of people out 298 00:18:51.484 --> 00:18:55.318 there who are either living alone, who've been very isolated, or, as you 299 00:18:55.324 --> 00:18:59.174 say, a single parent, or even worse, in some respects, 300 00:18:59.222 --> 00:19:02.982 a different problem, where there's multiple generations living in the same household, 301 00:19:03.046 --> 00:19:06.006 all trying to compete for space, internet, computers, 302 00:19:06.118 --> 00:19:09.370 tabletops, which can be equally stressful. 303 00:19:10.530 --> 00:19:14.030 Yeah, I think it can throw people together 304 00:19:14.180 --> 00:19:14.880 into 305 00:19:17.970 --> 00:19:21.214 emotional soups that they might not 306 00:19:21.252 --> 00:19:24.946 have either wanted to find themselves in or they may 307 00:19:24.968 --> 00:19:28.498 have had other way, other releases for and actually, as 308 00:19:28.504 --> 00:19:32.062 well for some queer people. Particularly 309 00:19:32.206 --> 00:19:33.540 tough times 310 00:19:36.950 --> 00:19:40.674 if you're stuck in a hostile environment, if you're stuck in an environment 311 00:19:40.722 --> 00:19:44.486 where you can't be yourself and there's no 312 00:19:44.508 --> 00:19:47.960 way of actually going out to the places where you can be yourself. 313 00:19:49.230 --> 00:19:51.370 If you're in the closet. 314 00:19:53.710 --> 00:19:57.258 Yeah, it must be must be very tough for I think there 315 00:19:57.264 --> 00:20:00.522 are particular challenges, I think, 316 00:20:00.576 --> 00:20:04.140 for many LGBTQ plus people. 317 00:20:07.470 --> 00:20:11.246 I think we're starting by saying that the Pride Month is cancelled. So this 318 00:20:11.268 --> 00:20:14.994 was obviously a global celebration month for 319 00:20:15.032 --> 00:20:18.766 people that all the marches, all the Pride 320 00:20:18.798 --> 00:20:22.626 events have now been virtualized. It's hard to 321 00:20:22.648 --> 00:20:25.714 imagine some of them taking place over Zoom 322 00:20:25.842 --> 00:20:29.014 until Eurovision. I 323 00:20:29.052 --> 00:20:32.118 really had an amazing night watching the 324 00:20:32.284 --> 00:20:35.190 Eurovision Revisited, the online version, 325 00:20:35.930 --> 00:20:39.414 the way that the production company still put an event on 326 00:20:39.532 --> 00:20:43.218 in a different way. And I thought it was fantastic. I thought 327 00:20:43.244 --> 00:20:46.026 they missed a trip, though. They could have still done the voting. They could have 328 00:20:46.048 --> 00:20:49.846 played all the songs and still had the voting. We could have all joined 329 00:20:49.878 --> 00:20:53.646 in still. I didn't see it. And I sometimes wonder if 330 00:20:53.668 --> 00:20:54.880 I'm not gay enough. 331 00:20:58.290 --> 00:21:02.078 I didn't realise there was a sighting scale. I didn't realise you could be a 332 00:21:02.084 --> 00:21:04.980 bit gay. Yeah, very definitely. 333 00:21:09.110 --> 00:21:12.914 You're right. It's impacting on people and just the fact that they can't get 334 00:21:12.952 --> 00:21:15.880 out, they can't meet people, they can't be themselves. 335 00:21:16.650 --> 00:21:20.054 I'm hyper aware of the impact on people who maybe have 336 00:21:20.252 --> 00:21:23.698 a gender identity, the trans or non 337 00:21:23.714 --> 00:21:27.398 binary, where they live in a family environment or with people who 338 00:21:27.484 --> 00:21:31.258 they're not open with, they're not out. And that could be a 339 00:21:31.264 --> 00:21:34.922 real challenge. There's no way they can 340 00:21:34.976 --> 00:21:38.486 sort of get any respite in that situation. Maybe, unless they're 341 00:21:38.518 --> 00:21:42.286 zooming, even though that's difficult. I 342 00:21:42.308 --> 00:21:45.854 know some trans people who are out at work 343 00:21:46.052 --> 00:21:49.790 but not out or not fully out at home, or that 344 00:21:49.940 --> 00:21:53.538 they're not out with their kids, or they're living in a 345 00:21:53.544 --> 00:21:56.420 marriage where it's not acceptable to be themselves. 346 00:21:57.030 --> 00:22:00.446 So work is their respite, and now they have to do zoom 347 00:22:00.478 --> 00:22:03.620 calls in. An environment where 348 00:22:04.150 --> 00:22:07.938 they don't want to. Go back to their birth gender for a 349 00:22:07.944 --> 00:22:11.686 zoom call for work, but then. They can't fully express themselves when they're. In 350 00:22:11.708 --> 00:22:15.254 a household with other people. So it's a real dilemma for certain 351 00:22:15.292 --> 00:22:18.826 people. Yeah, it must be. I think this also goes to 352 00:22:18.848 --> 00:22:21.994 show why the 353 00:22:22.032 --> 00:22:25.866 workplace for many people is such an 354 00:22:25.888 --> 00:22:26.940 important place. 355 00:22:29.150 --> 00:22:32.974 And I shy away from 356 00:22:33.012 --> 00:22:36.734 this kind of use of the word authentic, which kind of it does, 357 00:22:36.772 --> 00:22:40.398 I think gets I think gets perhaps overused in a 358 00:22:40.404 --> 00:22:43.780 corporate setting. But that said, 359 00:22:45.350 --> 00:22:47.940 where cultures within companies can be 360 00:22:49.670 --> 00:22:52.340 made to be 361 00:22:53.430 --> 00:22:57.174 inclusion. And I'm not talking about diversity in the sense 362 00:22:57.212 --> 00:23:01.030 of headcounts and making sure that we've 363 00:23:01.530 --> 00:23:04.982 tick got one of them. Tick got one of them. I'm talking 364 00:23:05.036 --> 00:23:08.826 about how do you make the workplace somewhere that actually 365 00:23:08.928 --> 00:23:11.740 you can feel celebrated in and accepted in 366 00:23:13.390 --> 00:23:16.860 and that you can bring your best professional self to work in 367 00:23:17.870 --> 00:23:21.610 without worrying about too much of that other baggage. 368 00:23:21.690 --> 00:23:24.640 And there's not enough companies that are like that. 369 00:23:26.690 --> 00:23:30.286 Are we getting better? Obviously still a long way to go, 370 00:23:30.308 --> 00:23:34.146 but is it better than it was? Certainly, I 371 00:23:34.168 --> 00:23:37.826 would say obviously I don't want to speak for trans. I certainly can't speak for 372 00:23:37.848 --> 00:23:41.570 trans people. Certainly as a certainly 373 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:45.300 as a gay man seems better to me. 374 00:23:46.630 --> 00:23:49.640 But if we're talking about where 375 00:23:50.250 --> 00:23:53.622 a white, middle class gay man sits on 376 00:23:53.676 --> 00:23:57.422 that privilege ladder 377 00:23:57.586 --> 00:24:01.386 within the sets of communities, then it's possible that 378 00:24:01.408 --> 00:24:04.826 I'm not getting the best view for other 379 00:24:04.848 --> 00:24:08.426 people. I suppose my 380 00:24:08.448 --> 00:24:11.594 experience is variable, it's 381 00:24:11.642 --> 00:24:15.200 situational. There are pockets of 382 00:24:17.410 --> 00:24:21.166 issues, but there are large swathes of places that 383 00:24:21.188 --> 00:24:24.434 are fully accepting. I spend most of my time in the world 384 00:24:24.632 --> 00:24:28.318 being embraced for who I am. It could well be that I've 385 00:24:28.334 --> 00:24:31.906 got my blinkers on and my hearing aid turned down, 386 00:24:31.928 --> 00:24:35.220 so I don't hear the negativity, but 387 00:24:36.390 --> 00:24:39.666 I don't experience much of an issue these days. But then again, I'm 388 00:24:39.698 --> 00:24:43.510 white, I'm relatively privileged, and 389 00:24:43.660 --> 00:24:47.318 I live in a world that is quite comfortable. So, yeah, maybe I'm not the 390 00:24:47.324 --> 00:24:51.146 best judge. Yeah. And it comes back to it's funny, I always sort of 391 00:24:51.168 --> 00:24:54.970 think about the William Gibson quote, 392 00:24:55.390 --> 00:24:59.014 which is the future's here. It's just not very evenly 393 00:24:59.062 --> 00:25:00.170 distributed, 394 00:25:02.370 --> 00:25:05.040 and I think that's true. 395 00:25:05.570 --> 00:25:09.120 Obviously, the experience of somebody who is 396 00:25:10.450 --> 00:25:14.226 black and trans or sort of 397 00:25:14.248 --> 00:25:15.940 genderqueer in some other way 398 00:25:18.790 --> 00:25:22.420 is going to be very different than for somebody who 399 00:25:22.870 --> 00:25:26.482 looks like me. And it's also going to be different if 400 00:25:26.616 --> 00:25:29.394 in the sort of company that you're working, are you working in a big corporate 401 00:25:29.442 --> 00:25:33.240