Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number of
Joanne Lockwood: amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subject of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place
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Joanne Lockwood: Today is episode nine with the title a
Joanne Lockwood: perspective from the first black, openly
Joanne Lockwood: gay, now retired police officer. And I have
Joanne Lockwood: the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Gamal
Joanne Lockwood: Tuawa, affectionately known as G.
Joanne Lockwood: And I first met G when we both spoke at a mentoring day
Joanne Lockwood: for Sussex and Surrey police forces back in 2019.
Joanne Lockwood: G describes himself as a diversity and dignity
Joanne Lockwood: facilitator and who says his
Joanne Lockwood: superpower is invisibility?
Joanne Lockwood: So. Hello, G. Welcome to the show.
Gamal Turawa: Hello, Jo, How are you doing? I'm great, thank you.
Joanne Lockwood: So tell me, why do we need a more
Joanne Lockwood: open dialogue on race?
Gamal Turawa: I think we need a more open dialogue because there's a lot
Gamal Turawa: of emotions. There's a
Gamal Turawa: lot of emotions, deep emotions like anger,
Gamal Turawa: frustration, fear,
Gamal Turawa: all this in this mix that is in the middle of this dialogue.
Gamal Turawa: And until we get through that, we
Gamal Turawa: can't get to the point where we can start to talk to each other.
Gamal Turawa: And what I try and do is I try and be a bridge through those
Gamal Turawa: emotions to navigate that stuff, so that we can get to
Gamal Turawa: a place where we can actually hear each other rather than tell
Gamal Turawa: each other. That's the big thing.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm white. Whilst I know people
Joanne Lockwood: of all skin colours, ethnicities and
Joanne Lockwood: races, I predominantly have, I suppose, white friends
Joanne Lockwood: in my close circle. And I see a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: dialogue on Facebook and in the media and things that
Joanne Lockwood: people are kind of shocked by. This sort of kind of the passion that's come
Joanne Lockwood: out. Where's this come from? Where's this been bubbling into? We,
Joanne Lockwood: as white people, thought it was kind of okay, but we got it wrong, didn't
Joanne Lockwood: we? Where did we miss? What did we miss here?
Gamal Turawa: I like to flip that question. I think what white people have missed is
Gamal Turawa: what it means to be white. We
Gamal Turawa: ask people of colour, like myself, black people, what is
Gamal Turawa: racism like to you? And we're expected to be the medicine
Gamal Turawa: and the cure. But the real question that I think
Gamal Turawa: is coming out now, and from some of the dialogues and conversations I've been having,
Gamal Turawa: is that white people are now getting to that point of saying, Hang on a
Gamal Turawa: minute. What does it mean to be white? What does privilege actually
Gamal Turawa: mean? What does this mean? And that's the key question.
Gamal Turawa: Because once you start to get that, the
Gamal Turawa: conversation can then start to flow
Gamal Turawa: in the same way.
Joanne Lockwood: Completely. And I think when you've never
Joanne Lockwood: experienced a lack of privilege, whatever that may be,
Joanne Lockwood: you really don't understand the impact of
Joanne Lockwood: that is when people glide through life without ever
Joanne Lockwood: questioning who they are, their lived experience, it
Joanne Lockwood: just becomes okay. And many people don't
Joanne Lockwood: realise what it's like not to have that privilege, do they? No,
Gamal Turawa: they don't. The way I describe
Gamal Turawa: it is like there's two boxes, one box on top of the other box,
Gamal Turawa: and there's a group of people that live in the top box
Gamal Turawa: and in that box, they don't see any of these issues,
Gamal Turawa: but it's their box. And they look around and when the people in the bottom
Gamal Turawa: box are saying, this is what it's like to be in the bottom, they're sort
Gamal Turawa: of like, we don't get that because they don't even acknowledge that the bottom
Gamal Turawa: box exists. It's almost like, in my
Gamal Turawa: world, I can't see this. So
Gamal Turawa: what you're telling me doesn't make sense.
Gamal Turawa: And the barrier is, how do we
Gamal Turawa: build a bridge between those two boxes that can move the
Gamal Turawa: boxes next to each other or even integrated
Gamal Turawa: with each other, rather than one on top and one on the
Gamal Turawa: bottom? I love the words you use there, because
Joanne Lockwood: one thing I've started talking about recently in the DNI space when I talk,
Joanne Lockwood: is about building this empathy bridge. So what I need to
Joanne Lockwood: do is take a position for my lived experience and your
Joanne Lockwood: experience, so I can create a bridge between our two experiences. So
Joanne Lockwood: I can sometimes maybe use something I can relate to, that I can apply
Joanne Lockwood: it to what you're saying. Otherwise, all I do is I hear you, but I
Joanne Lockwood: can't apply it. I don't have a reference point. So this is
Joanne Lockwood: this empathy bridge that you use the word bridge, and I love that. And I
Joanne Lockwood: think we'll try and do is create this bridge. Because
Joanne Lockwood: often, I'm sure you find this as a person with a minority
Joanne Lockwood: characteristic, if you like. You seem to be the one doing all the empathy
Joanne Lockwood: and actually you want to share that responsibility. So we both meet in the middle
Joanne Lockwood: of the bridge rather than coming to my side or coming to your side all
Joanne Lockwood: the time. Yeah. One of the things I always add to that is
Gamal Turawa: that I always try and remove the word understanding
Gamal Turawa: because I think that word understanding becomes a big barrier to that
Gamal Turawa: building that bridge. You will never understand the
Gamal Turawa: world I live in, no matter how much I try and describe
Gamal Turawa: it. So it's not about understand, it's just about to me, it's
Gamal Turawa: about appreciating that we live in different worlds.
Gamal Turawa: I remember a conversation I had with
Gamal Turawa: a senior police officers a few years ago,
Gamal Turawa: and they were talking about trans issues, and they said,
Gamal Turawa: I really don't get trans issues. I can't get my head around it
Gamal Turawa: and I said, It's not yours to get.
Gamal Turawa: And she looks at me and she goes, what do you mean? I said, all
Gamal Turawa: you have to do is appreciate that it's somebody else's
Gamal Turawa: world. That's the world that they live in. You don't have to get it, you
Gamal Turawa: don't have to understand it. You just have to appreciate that it's different to your
Gamal Turawa: world. And that's what people want, to be appreciated, to
Gamal Turawa: be recognised for who they are, not who you think they should
Gamal Turawa: be. Oh, completely. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: that's completely true. When you talk about identity, you don't have to get someone's identity,
Joanne Lockwood: you just have to embrace the fact that they have an identity and it's important
Joanne Lockwood: to them. Exactly.
Joanne Lockwood: I cast myself as non religious, but I don't try
Joanne Lockwood: and disagree with somebody who has a faith or a belief, because that's
Joanne Lockwood: important to them. I don't have that. I accept and
Joanne Lockwood: I recognise and I celebrate the fact that that makes you special
Joanne Lockwood: and that's who you are. And I need to value you,
Joanne Lockwood: including that element of your life. Yeah, you just
Gamal Turawa: highlighted the other thing is the other thing for me is that identity is not
Gamal Turawa: fixed. We all have multiple identities.
Gamal Turawa: I mean, looking at this whole scenario and
Gamal Turawa: this movement that is happening at the moment, I can look at it as
Gamal Turawa: a black man, I can look at it as an ex police officer as well,
Gamal Turawa: so there's so many different hats that I can use to look at this
Gamal Turawa: scenario. I can look at it as a facilitator. So I think
Gamal Turawa: the other thing is recognising that our identity is not fixed and
Gamal Turawa: sometimes I could be speaking to you, but I may be speaking to you
Gamal Turawa: as a facilitator, but you might be hearing me as a
Gamal Turawa: black man, so then the
Gamal Turawa: conversation gets kind of lost.
Gamal Turawa: So I think it's about being clear of where we're speaking from and
Gamal Turawa: how we're speaking. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: In a parallel way of bridging what you've just said.
Joanne Lockwood: I get that, because often I see people talking to me as a
Joanne Lockwood: trans person, rather than talking to me as an entrepreneur, a
Joanne Lockwood: businesswoman, a speaker, a trainer. They're seeing
Joanne Lockwood: my primary identity of, oh, she's trans as being. And then there's
Joanne Lockwood: always thoughts in their head about whether they're confused by that or not before
Joanne Lockwood: I have to wade through that. So what you're saying there is this would be
Joanne Lockwood: building my bridge to you, is trying to relate to saying people are judging you
Joanne Lockwood: as a black man first or a gay man first, or sometimes a gay black
Joanne Lockwood: man first, before they understand
Joanne Lockwood: your perspective, intelligence, your insight, et cetera, et cetera.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And that's why I say invisibility is my superpower.
Gamal Turawa: Because one of the things I'd like to think I'm good at is when I'm
Gamal Turawa: facilitating groups. I get to a point where they forget that
Gamal Turawa: I'm black, they forget that I'm a gay man, and they get
Gamal Turawa: so engrossed in the conversation that I fade into the
Gamal Turawa: background and can work with the conversation. And to
Gamal Turawa: me, that's the beautiful thing about the work I do.
Joanne Lockwood: I just think of you as g, but I
Joanne Lockwood: don't erase your gayness or your
Joanne Lockwood: blackness. I don't erase that because that's part of you. As far as I'm
Joanne Lockwood: concerned, I would never describe you as my gay black friend.
Joanne Lockwood: You're my friend. But I understand
Joanne Lockwood: if I need some insight, perhaps some of the conversation we're having
Joanne Lockwood: today. I know you're a great person because you have the insight and
Joanne Lockwood: the lived experience that is valuable for the world, not just
Joanne Lockwood: me. Yeah. And what's beautiful about relationships
Gamal Turawa: like yours and mine, Joe, is that what I like about my life
Gamal Turawa: is I've managed to meet and
Gamal Turawa: form relationships or friendships with people from across
Gamal Turawa: a wide spectrum. And to me,
Gamal Turawa: it's not what a person is, it's who they are in their heart.
Gamal Turawa: What do they stand for, what are their values? That's what I like to connect
Gamal Turawa: with. I'm not about whether
Gamal Turawa: they're this or they're that, but actually, do you believe
Gamal Turawa: in humanity? Do you believe we work together? Do you
Gamal Turawa: believe we are one? That's what's important to
Gamal Turawa: me. One of the things you picked up then is one of the things I've
Gamal Turawa: been working on recently is that there's a phrase people use
Gamal Turawa: which is actually quite insulting,
Gamal Turawa: when people say things like and I've had it said,
Gamal Turawa: it was said to me yesterday, actually, and says, when I see you, I don't
Gamal Turawa: see your colour. And I find that
Gamal Turawa: phrase, my colour is a very important part
Gamal Turawa: of my identity. You don't have to judge me by it, but
Gamal Turawa: recognise that it is a part of my identity. So when you don't
Gamal Turawa: see that, you actually don't see a part of me.
Joanne Lockwood: Completely. And I say that about many different people.
Joanne Lockwood: Whilst I don't want to be known as Joe, the trans person,
Joanne Lockwood: I want you to know the fact that that is part of my identity and
Joanne Lockwood: that is what gives me some strength, because I'm
Joanne Lockwood: sure you have resilience inside you
Joanne Lockwood: that has come from your lived experience.
Joanne Lockwood: And that's important to celebrate, isn't it? Yeah.
Gamal Turawa: Sorry, I was going to say one of the things, and I don't know whether
Gamal Turawa: it's similar for people of the trans
Gamal Turawa: community, but one of the things for me
Gamal Turawa: is I have had to work hard
Gamal Turawa: to value my blackness, to value my gayness.
Gamal Turawa: It took me to the point of suicide.
Gamal Turawa: I didn't actually come out until I was in my 40s, early
Gamal Turawa: forty, s. And the reason why it took me so long is because
Gamal Turawa: I was listening to all the negative messages in the world that
Gamal Turawa: told me that being gay was wrong. I was
Gamal Turawa: listening to all the negative messages in the world who told me that being black,
Gamal Turawa: I was less than and all of those
Gamal Turawa: things, all that negativity built up. And
Gamal Turawa: I say I was lucky to have a breakdown. I was lucky to get to
Gamal Turawa: that point of suicide, because at that point, the question
Gamal Turawa: came up about, okay, who actually are you?
Gamal Turawa: And I remember being asked a question of who defines
Gamal Turawa: you? And I'm sort of like coming up to my
Gamal Turawa: 40s thinking, I've never heard that phrase before. No one's
Gamal Turawa: ever actually asked me to define myself. I thought I had to
Gamal Turawa: be what people expected me to be,
Gamal Turawa: not who I could be. And I thought that for me to say this is
Gamal Turawa: who I am, was selfish. That was my conditioning,
Gamal Turawa: that was my thought process. So to get to
Gamal Turawa: that point where I'm now saying I am a black gay man has
Gamal Turawa: taken a lot of internal
Gamal Turawa: battles and struggle and strife. So when somebody says,
Gamal Turawa: I don't see it or I don't recognise it, you're dismissing
Gamal Turawa: that battle.
Gamal Turawa: Does that make sense, as you're talking. That I'm
Joanne Lockwood: thinking about, wow, this is so parallel.
Joanne Lockwood: I have the same thing society says, trans is
Joanne Lockwood: misunderstood, it's discriminated against. You can be rejected, humiliated, you can
Joanne Lockwood: lose your house, your car, your wife, your family, everything's going to go.
Joanne Lockwood: So being trans is bad and it's kind of weird. So
Joanne Lockwood: you carry that through all your life and this is what keeps this secret in,
Joanne Lockwood: isn't it? Because you're almost internalising
Joanne Lockwood: your own transphobia or your own homophobic against yourself
Joanne Lockwood: and thinking, I shouldn't succeed. And then when you open,
Joanne Lockwood: I always talk about having this shield where you carry this in front of you
Joanne Lockwood: going, you won't like me because I'm trans. You won't like me because I'm trans.
Joanne Lockwood: And that kind of almost like, influences every conversation where you're assuming
Joanne Lockwood: you're going to get scrimmage against all the time because you're trans. And
Joanne Lockwood: the thing that got me out of bed when I was going through a very
Joanne Lockwood: dark time, I wouldn't say I was thinking
Joanne Lockwood: suicidal thoughts at any point, but why? I got to a point where
Joanne Lockwood: I seriously could not get out of bed. I could not function as a human
Joanne Lockwood: being. And the thing that got me off this roundabout that I couldn't get
Joanne Lockwood: off was saying, I am and I am. Is a really powerful thing. I am
Joanne Lockwood: trans. Then you don't have to explain it, you don't have to
Joanne Lockwood: justify, you don't have to find a reason in your perspective of, why am
Joanne Lockwood: I trans? It doesn't matter, I just am. And they go, oh, that's the jigsaw.
Joanne Lockwood: That's the missing piece of the jigsaw. I am. And when you said that just
Joanne Lockwood: then, I thought, wow, that is such a powerful thing to have, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? Yeah. And the beauty of what you're saying there, this is what I
Gamal Turawa: talk about when we work together, is that the labels
Gamal Turawa: at either end may be different, whether it's black
Gamal Turawa: or trans or straight or gay or male or female. But the
Gamal Turawa: process in the middle is exactly the same for
Gamal Turawa: all of us. We all have to come to terms with something about our
Gamal Turawa: identity at some point. And that, to me, is the key
Gamal Turawa: to the bridge building, finding that point where we all
Gamal Turawa: connect and then extrapolating it from
Gamal Turawa: mean. I consider myself a bit lucky, where privileged.
Joanne Lockwood: I've worked all over the world. I've worked in countries where English
Joanne Lockwood: isn't the first language. I've worked in Hong Kong and
Joanne Lockwood: Singapore, where my skin colour has been a minority.
Joanne Lockwood: I've been in rooms, in meetings, in social
Joanne Lockwood: situations. In Germany, where I don't speak German, everyone has to speak in German. So
Joanne Lockwood: I know what it's like to be not in part of the conversation. I know
Joanne Lockwood: what it feels like to feel included. And all of a sudden someone says, oh,
Joanne Lockwood: Joe, sorry, we've lift you out of that. And he go, it's okay. And you'll
Joanne Lockwood: just sit there mindlessly numb, listening to these people talk in German and you're not
Joanne Lockwood: including the conversation. And in Hong Kong, I very much felt
Joanne Lockwood: that I was racially different to the majority there, even. I was working in a
Joanne Lockwood: kind of a British bank with lots of white people out in
Joanne Lockwood: society. I still found that people were looking at me strange because I was
Joanne Lockwood: tall, big white person walking around. And I felt this
Joanne Lockwood: sort of kind of like, weirdness of being unique, if you like, or
Joanne Lockwood: different. So whilst that doesn't go any way to
Joanne Lockwood: it's, my empathy bridge to you to say, whilst I don't understand what it's like
Joanne Lockwood: to be black, I can understand what it's like to be excluded or in a
Joanne Lockwood: minority. And also, these are my trans. I know what it's like to
Joanne Lockwood: have people judge me by not necessarily the colour of my skin,
Joanne Lockwood: but my facial characteristics and my voice and my hand
Joanne Lockwood: size and that I get looked at on the tube.
Joanne Lockwood: I get looked at when I'm doing things. I get looked at when I'm buying
Joanne Lockwood: a coffee. I pick up on these body language
Joanne Lockwood: signs and you may feel, well, oh, wow, big
Joanne Lockwood: black there. And so you create a reaction. I create a reaction.
Joanne Lockwood: So that's my empathy bridge. So when you tell me those
Joanne Lockwood: things, I go, I get it from my perspective. I understand
Joanne Lockwood: through my empathy bridge to you what that means. And then if you
Gamal Turawa: take that to the next level, it's almost like, okay, so now you understand
Gamal Turawa: what that means, let's look at how
Gamal Turawa: we can work with that. What do we do with
Gamal Turawa: that empathy? And when we start to work
Gamal Turawa: with that empathy, what we do is we start to value each other's
Gamal Turawa: dignity.
Gamal Turawa: And that's where the real work, the real magic for me starts to
Gamal Turawa: happen, is when we jump from our
Gamal Turawa: difference to our empathy to
Gamal Turawa: our dignity, and
Gamal Turawa: then it becomes a powerful and profound conversation.
Joanne Lockwood: Because we both understand, we're both just human beings.
Joanne Lockwood: We both live, love, want to do a great job, be
Joanne Lockwood: recognised, be celebrated and enjoy our lives. We
Joanne Lockwood: both achieve the same. And our brains probably aren't that different. They were both pink
Joanne Lockwood: or grey gooey masses. You've opened your head. The rest of us is just
Joanne Lockwood: skin and bones, but our intelligence is probably no real difference, just
Joanne Lockwood: different experience. Yeah, exactly.
Gamal Turawa: How that stuff is influenced. I mean, some of the work I think I've
Gamal Turawa: been speaking to you about recently is working with. I
Gamal Turawa: was fostered as a child, and between
Gamal Turawa: the 1950s to the early
Gamal Turawa: 80s, thousands of Nigerian children were
Gamal Turawa: fostered in this country with various degrees
Gamal Turawa: of success or failure. And one of the things we're working on now
Gamal Turawa: is how do we get those voices heard? Because you're
Gamal Turawa: brought up in two different worlds. You're brought up with a clash
Gamal Turawa: of cultures, you're brought up with a clash of your own
Gamal Turawa: internal identity. Okay, I've got this white
Gamal Turawa: experience, then I've got this Nigerian experience and I'm somewhere in the
Gamal Turawa: middle. What does that mean?
Gamal Turawa: Who am I? Who am
Gamal Turawa: I? There's a lot of people in that group.
Gamal Turawa: Sorry, go on. I was going to say, this overlapping identity where
Joanne Lockwood: you're not British, you're not Nigerian, you're kind of
Joanne Lockwood: an expat in both worlds, aren't? Yeah, yeah. I
Gamal Turawa: mean, one of the sad things, I've had some incredible stories
Gamal Turawa: around it, but one of the stories or some of the themes that have come
Gamal Turawa: up from it is people who were taken from England
Gamal Turawa: to Nigeria, and they're in Nigeria for a few years. They managed to get back
Gamal Turawa: to England, thinking they're coming back home, but they've now developed a
Gamal Turawa: Nigerian accent and they come back to England and suddenly
Gamal Turawa: realise they don't fit in here. They've spent eight
Gamal Turawa: years or so thinking, I don't fit in in Nigeria, I'll fit in in
Gamal Turawa: England when I get back. And then they come back with this accent and suddenly
Gamal Turawa: realise they don't fit in. Mean, if I use myself
Gamal Turawa: as an example, when I first came back from Nigeria, I met up with my
Gamal Turawa: old school friends and then sat around with them and realised
Gamal Turawa: I had nothing in common with them anymore. I mean,
Gamal Turawa: they were all willing to help and engage, but I just thought, we're on totally
Gamal Turawa: different planets. I've had this whole other,
Gamal Turawa: you know, everybody has, but there's nothing that connects us. They've all
Gamal Turawa: grown up together, they've been around each other's houses and everything that for the past
Gamal Turawa: day, I've been in this whole total different existence
Gamal Turawa: and trying to find a way to fit in and connect. It's almost like you
Gamal Turawa: have to go back to basics and restart your life all over
Gamal Turawa: again and reform and start new friendships. So
Joanne Lockwood: you press pause on your British life, so you did something
Joanne Lockwood: else, but in the meantime, time continued for everybody who was here. So when
Joanne Lockwood: you joined back, you pressed pause again and started
Joanne Lockwood: play, but you were eight years behind them and you go, Hang on a minute,
Joanne Lockwood: I expected it to be the same. But it wasn't, was it? Yeah, exactly.
Gamal Turawa: And that's a beautiful way of putting it, but you don't realise
Gamal Turawa: consciously that that's what's happening, because you're
Gamal Turawa: going off. And doing your thing and you forget that other people are moving on,
Joanne Lockwood: doing their own thing as well. Yeah, that's really interesting. Can I ask
Joanne Lockwood: you, were your foster parents in the UK, were they black or were they white?
Gamal Turawa: They were white. They were white. So you had that mixed
Joanne Lockwood: identity as well. So you're a black child being raised in a white
Joanne Lockwood: family with not racism as such,
Joanne Lockwood: but they weren't valuing your racial identity at that point, were
Joanne Lockwood: they white? Yeah. And they used to make jokes
Gamal Turawa: to me, like, don't send him out in the dark, we'll
Gamal Turawa: never find him again.
Gamal Turawa: I remember watching Tarzan and they would say things, know that's
Gamal Turawa: where you come from in the jungle, you're lucky to be living with us.
Gamal Turawa: So I grew up for the first few years thinking all black people
Gamal Turawa: lived in the jungle, and I was lucky to be living in
Gamal Turawa: this village in Kent. Little village in Kent. And
Gamal Turawa: then the other thing about it was I was going to the
Gamal Turawa: Sunday school every Sunday, and then
Gamal Turawa: when my dad kidnapped me from my foster parents,
Gamal Turawa: I went from this white, British Kent
Gamal Turawa: rural life to suddenly in the middle of Halston in London, which was
Gamal Turawa: a totally black area. My father was a Muslim, which was a religion
Gamal Turawa: I knew nothing about, never even heard of it. So I was in this whole
Gamal Turawa: culture. The food was different, the culture was different, the rules
Gamal Turawa: were different. I mean, I remember coming home from school one day and there was
Gamal Turawa: a packet of biscuits on the table. So I came in, took a packet of
Gamal Turawa: biscuit, took a biscuit, put on the TV, sat down, eating the biscuit, and my
Gamal Turawa: dad came in and slapped me around the face. Who gave you
Gamal Turawa: permission to put the TV on? Who gave you that biscuit? I took
Gamal Turawa: it from there. You stole it. And it was suddenly I was in
Gamal Turawa: this whole different world. I didn't understand the rules, I didn't know what was going
Gamal Turawa: on. And you become a traumatised
Gamal Turawa: child, but then going through all those
Gamal Turawa: experiences, I think I'm one of the lucky ones,
Gamal Turawa: because I know there's a lot of people that had that experience that ended up
Gamal Turawa: in the judicial system or ended up on drugs. And I'm
Gamal Turawa: aware of people who've committed suicide because they couldn't reconcile those
Gamal Turawa: identities. I'm one of the lucky ones. I've got through
Gamal Turawa: the other side and I've come to a point where I can see it, I
Gamal Turawa: can understand it, but I can also use that experience to help
Gamal Turawa: others, to understand where they're coming from.
Joanne Lockwood: That's really powerful.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm struggling to build the bridge here because that is such an alien
Joanne Lockwood: lived experience to me. And I'm rapidly thinking because I've got other friends
Joanne Lockwood: who are black or are fostered by white parents and
Joanne Lockwood: they've again grown up with this mixed culture. But to have that sort
Joanne Lockwood: of that British culture that wasn't quite right for
Joanne Lockwood: you, to be whisked into a Nigerian culture that again, was alien to you at
Joanne Lockwood: the wrong age, then you're trying to put yourself back into the first culture in
Joanne Lockwood: a different scenario. That must have been a real
Joanne Lockwood: mind bending sense of identity. What's going on in
Joanne Lockwood: my life? What's my anchor point here? Who am I? Who am
Joanne Lockwood: I? I am? What am I?
Gamal Turawa: And that question, those questions so go on, Jay.
Joanne Lockwood: You go first. I'll let you talk. Go for it. I was going to say,
Gamal Turawa: those questions are not always conscious questions.
Gamal Turawa: Sometimes they're deep in your subconscious, they're happening underneath the
Gamal Turawa: surface. All you're doing is reacting to everything,
Gamal Turawa: so you don't even realise that those questions need to be answered.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Again, as you're talking, I'm thinking here
Joanne Lockwood: about the announcement for the BBC last night, Netflix, etc, for about
Joanne Lockwood: Pulling Little Britain. Gone With The Wind has now
Joanne Lockwood: been withdrawn and re released with different
Joanne Lockwood: narrative around it. And I'm sitting there thinking, OK,
Joanne Lockwood: let me unpack that, let me understand what they're trying to say, rather than just
Joanne Lockwood: have an opinion. Either way, I want to understand why I've got an
Joanne Lockwood: opinion. And as I'm sitting there thinking about it, I'm thinking about I
Joanne Lockwood: grew up as a white kid in the 60s. I'm 55, so I was born
Joanne Lockwood: now 65, and the
Joanne Lockwood: stereotypical racial
Joanne Lockwood: portrayal of people in the media, in society
Joanne Lockwood: was very fixed. Tarzan tarzan was around black people
Joanne Lockwood: running around the jungle in edible
Joanne Lockwood: skin, underpants, swinging from trees,
Joanne Lockwood: basically monkey type. Gorilla
Joanne Lockwood: monkey. Then we had Mouthlie and we had The Jungle Book. Again, mowgli is kind
Joanne Lockwood: of like living in the jungle. This whole Tarzan thing we have with kids,
Joanne Lockwood: we grew up in a very white, middle class society, so we
Joanne Lockwood: didn't see black people, or if we saw black people, they were unusual go, oh,
Joanne Lockwood: there's a black person. Or the people who maybe who are
Joanne Lockwood: brown, Chinese, Indian, were performing a service
Joanne Lockwood: role, maybe in a restaurant,
Joanne Lockwood: maybe in a lower paid role.
Joanne Lockwood: So we were brought up with the tele programmes, the Alf Garnets, the
Joanne Lockwood: Black and white minstrel shows, the comedy at the time.
Joanne Lockwood: And that was just how I was brought up to thinking. That
Joanne Lockwood: was it. So my generation, certainly, I don't know how big
Joanne Lockwood: my generation is, but for my certain view, is that I had
Joanne Lockwood: no other reference point to people who were black or brown
Joanne Lockwood: than what I was told by the media. And so now I look
Joanne Lockwood: at the Pulling Little Britain, I'm thinking, yeah, I get that, because what they
Joanne Lockwood: did was they propagated these racial
Joanne Lockwood: stereotypes, they exaggerated features, and they did with gay
Joanne Lockwood: people and they did with trans people and they did with women and
Joanne Lockwood: disabled people. So that they were literally pulling at the stereotypes and
Joanne Lockwood: replaying those tropes for comedy. And I thought,
Joanne Lockwood: well, actually, I took a lot of offence as a trans person at some of
Joanne Lockwood: their sketches. That's just
Joanne Lockwood: a small part of the bigger picture, just being a trans person.
Joanne Lockwood: So I've now got this empathy bridge thing. Actually, I didn't like that
Joanne Lockwood: at the time. I didn't like the are you being served the
Joanne Lockwood: portrayal of John Inman as a gay man, the way they were using his gayness
Joanne Lockwood: as comedy, the way that you see drag
Joanne Lockwood: in performing arts is yes, okay, I understand drag is a performance culture, but
Joanne Lockwood: sometimes drag, to me, can also be a parody of
Joanne Lockwood: my identity.
Joanne Lockwood: To recognise in history that that's who we were,
Joanne Lockwood: I think we need to recognise that. But then we need to put this wrapper
Joanne Lockwood: of contemporary interpretation of that history and
Joanne Lockwood: say, this is how the Romans used to invade countries.
Joanne Lockwood: This is how the Egyptians used to be. This is how
Joanne Lockwood: colonialists, if you want to call this colonialists used to be.
Joanne Lockwood: They used to think they could come into countries, take all of their assets,
Joanne Lockwood: give them religion, and then leave and takes and slaves back
Joanne Lockwood: as well, and then assume that the people they've helped
Joanne Lockwood: are grateful for that. And that's how colonials behave. So we
Joanne Lockwood: can always categorise our generation as post colonial,
Joanne Lockwood: but still living through the ill gotten
Joanne Lockwood: gains of suffering and people's lives.
Joanne Lockwood: So that's how I'm kind of framing it now to try and try and see
Joanne Lockwood: it. So it's important to keep these statues with the graffiti on it in a
Joanne Lockwood: museum to say, this is what happens when
Joanne Lockwood: a cultural revolution occurs. We now understand that this stuff
Joanne Lockwood: is of the past contextually happened, but
Joanne Lockwood: we now recognise that it shouldn't happen again. Yeah,
Gamal Turawa: I totally agree. I mean, that's one of the arguments I've been saying with people,
Gamal Turawa: that we shouldn't get rid of this stuff. We should have a place
Gamal Turawa: where we can keep it, where it's recognised that whether
Gamal Turawa: we like it or not, it's a part of our history.
Gamal Turawa: And at some point we have to recognise, if we don't know where we're
Gamal Turawa: coming from, how do we know where we're going?
Gamal Turawa: And there's an important part. Yes, we can remove it from the
Gamal Turawa: plinths and wherever, but I was watching something about
Gamal Turawa: Winston Churchill yesterday and how
Gamal Turawa: divisive a figure he was.
Gamal Turawa: And in some areas he was racist, in some areas he was
Gamal Turawa: a patriot. He helped Britain through the
Gamal Turawa: Second World War. He was an inspiration. He's one of the greatest Britons.
Gamal Turawa: So at what point what it speaks
Gamal Turawa: to to me, it goes back to that very same thing of we
Gamal Turawa: have multiple layers to our identity.
Gamal Turawa: We have the tate. Gallery, which was built on the
Gamal Turawa: sugar plantations of Tate and Lyle.
Gamal Turawa: Yet today, you go there and you see some of the finest art in the
Gamal Turawa: world. Are we going to tear down the.
Joanne Lockwood: You know, where is the Egyptian pyramids?
Joanne Lockwood: Egyptians enslaved half of that region.
Joanne Lockwood: The Ottoman Empire. The Persian Empire. All of these people in the
Joanne Lockwood: past have built countries and
Joanne Lockwood: societies on the past,
Joanne Lockwood: and none of us are innocent in that. And we've all
Joanne Lockwood: benefited from other colonialism maybe further back in
Joanne Lockwood: time. And it's about recognising. This colonialism
Joanne Lockwood: was a point in time and that we need to learn from it
Joanne Lockwood: and do right where we can. Yeah. And
Gamal Turawa: I look at know when they're taking down the statues, I see them as
Gamal Turawa: symbolic gestures. They are symbolic
Gamal Turawa: of what people want to be. But if you really want to look
Gamal Turawa: at some of this stuff, everything that you almost touch within London or
Gamal Turawa: within, you know, I look at that. I said, for example, the British
Gamal Turawa: lion. Everyone talks about the good British lion. And you thought,
Gamal Turawa: Where is the lion? Is not even a British animal.
Gamal Turawa: So the British lion that they hold up to be the British is not a
Gamal Turawa: British animal when they say good cup of English tea,
Gamal Turawa: where's it growth.
Gamal Turawa: So there's a lot of stuff within our society that you sit down
Gamal Turawa: and say, okay, if you really want to go down that road, how deep
Gamal Turawa: down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Well, because
Gamal Turawa: once you start to open. Up that door yeah, fish
Joanne Lockwood: and potato. The potato
Joanne Lockwood: came from was it Walter Raleigh, whoever bought the potato
Joanne Lockwood: back, didn't he? And the pineapple. I mean, all this stuff was ill
Joanne Lockwood: gotten gate of the colonial sort
Joanne Lockwood: of path we led. Yeah. Some of the
Gamal Turawa: banking institutions that we respect today were the insurers of
Gamal Turawa: the slave ships. And you sort of sit there, so you think, if
Gamal Turawa: we want to look at this stuff, how far down the rabbit? So I see
Gamal Turawa: removal of statues as a symbolic gesture or a
Gamal Turawa: symbolic recognition of those
Gamal Turawa: things, but they shouldn't be the only
Gamal Turawa: thing that's done. We pulled down that statue. That's it, everything's fine now.
Gamal Turawa: No, it's symbolic, but there is still other stuff that's within the
Gamal Turawa: system that is endemic within the system that needs to be addressed.
Joanne Lockwood: Do you think there's a desire for change now? Do you think there is a
Joanne Lockwood: momentum? I'm an
Gamal Turawa: optimist. I like to hope so. I mean, the thing about this, I've
Gamal Turawa: had and I get emotional when I say this, but I've
Gamal Turawa: had some incredible conversations with some
Gamal Turawa: amazing people and white people as well,
Gamal Turawa: who have come back and they're asking for
Gamal Turawa: guidance, they're asking for understanding. And that's
Gamal Turawa: never happened before. When I saw the police officers in
Gamal Turawa: America taking a knee and police officers coming out on
Gamal Turawa: YouTube saying, this is not being done in my name, that
Gamal Turawa: has never happened before. And I'm hoping that there's a lot
Gamal Turawa: of profound moments that are happening, and
Gamal Turawa: I'm hoping that, yes, it does lead to something more
Gamal Turawa: significant to me, it's opened
Gamal Turawa: up the dialogue, and I think that's the first
Gamal Turawa: stage we have to get through, we have to have this dialogue, and it's
Gamal Turawa: not going to be an overnight thing. I think everyone's looking for a quick, fixed
Gamal Turawa: solution. If we do this, have we done it? And it's like, no, it's
Gamal Turawa: taken hundreds of years to get here. It's not going to take five
Gamal Turawa: minutes to get away from it. It's a gradual, slow
Gamal Turawa: process. I was listening to Sadiq Khan the other night, or the
Joanne Lockwood: other day about his mission or his
Joanne Lockwood: passion is to sort of look at statues, road names, et cetera, et cetera,
Joanne Lockwood: et cetera. And I thought, well, when we talk about inclusion, we're not talking
Joanne Lockwood: about taking something away from you, we're about giving people more, it's
Joanne Lockwood: about giving people access. So when I was listening to
Joanne Lockwood: saying, we want to look at the road names, we're going to this, to me,
Joanne Lockwood: it wasn't about removing white names, it was
Joanne Lockwood: about giving prominence to people of
Joanne Lockwood: colour, to black people, to brown people, to people who've helped us in
Joanne Lockwood: a more modern time and celebrating them. And yes, at some
Joanne Lockwood: point, you got to displace history with modern history. So
Joanne Lockwood: I thought that was a really symbolic way of saying,
Joanne Lockwood: it's not about condemning the past, it's about recognising, there's a new
Joanne Lockwood: future and we can use new names to celebrate new things.
Joanne Lockwood: And I thought that was quite a powerful way of doing. As you say, it's
Joanne Lockwood: symbolic, but it's symbolic to me. But for someone of
Joanne Lockwood: a black culture, it must be extremely powerful to see
Joanne Lockwood: people you celebrate, you revere being recognised in the
Joanne Lockwood: society you're a part of. Yeah. And I think when you say that,
Gamal Turawa: it's not about moving to a new future, it's about
Gamal Turawa: recognising an unspoken past.
Gamal Turawa: It's not about, okay, we are now recognising. We were here all the time.
Gamal Turawa: All this stuff has been happening all the time. It's about now
Gamal Turawa: recognising that that was going on, recognising that. These
Gamal Turawa: historic figures were there all the time, we
Gamal Turawa: just didn't acknowledge them.
Gamal Turawa: So it's not about moving forward in a new way, it's about recognising the old
Gamal Turawa: way. Yeah. So think about
Joanne Lockwood: let's just take the last two years. I think two years is probably the time
Joanne Lockwood: frame. We've had Grenfield Tower, and that,
Joanne Lockwood: significantly, was rooted in the black community as
Joanne Lockwood: being the people in that tower, the people that mostly affected, okay, there are other
Joanne Lockwood: people of all races in there, but predominantly it was
Joanne Lockwood: black people were affected the most in that tower. And
Joanne Lockwood: that instigated some level of change in building regulations,
Joanne Lockwood: and it shined a big spotlight on that social deprivation
Joanne Lockwood: type issue. And then we've had the Windrush
Joanne Lockwood: scandal. That the unpicking of that. And I watched a BBC
Joanne Lockwood: drama the other night on that, about that one
Joanne Lockwood: character and his lived experience. And, yes, it was a
Joanne Lockwood: dramatisation, but I felt physically sick,
Joanne Lockwood: my empathy, everything was triggering. And I just thought the
Joanne Lockwood: injustice, the way that person was portrayed, the way
Joanne Lockwood: that people talked to them, the way the white people
Joanne Lockwood: almost had, you're guilty, you're just trash, we've got to get
Joanne Lockwood: you out of this country. Whatever you say is a lie type mentality. And I
Joanne Lockwood: just thought, we look in shock and horror about
Joanne Lockwood: Britons who are imprisoned in Iraq or Iran and
Joanne Lockwood: imprisoned the schoolteacher over there for being a spy or whatever,
Joanne Lockwood: and we're looking at the Iranian culture going, well, they're barbarians.
Joanne Lockwood: Can't they see this nice white girl is innocent? Or this nice Asian girl is
Joanne Lockwood: innocent. It's so barbaric. Yet
Joanne Lockwood: we in what we believe is our perfect British
Joanne Lockwood: justice system. We're doing that to our own people.
Joanne Lockwood: And I felt physically sick watching that and I cried
Joanne Lockwood: at the end of it. I just sat there, I was numb, because that had
Joanne Lockwood: such an impact of the travesty that we, our
Joanne Lockwood: society, and I talk about our society as Brits,
Joanne Lockwood: everybody that's you, me and everybody we are doing to
Joanne Lockwood: people, and it's incredible we can still do that. And that
Joanne Lockwood: was two years ago, three years ago, how
Joanne Lockwood: COVID is affecting people in a disproportionate way
Joanne Lockwood: and how the BBC imagery of showing that people who died
Joanne Lockwood: recently was disproportionately white, the faces they were
Joanne Lockwood: showing. And you think, are people not having any
Joanne Lockwood: sensitivity about understanding the messages that are going out? And
Joanne Lockwood: then finally the Black Lives Matter, the
Joanne Lockwood: things that are going on, it's been an evolution over the last two years now
Joanne Lockwood: of, as you say, awakening
Joanne Lockwood: and sorry, carry on. You were going to say something there. No,
Gamal Turawa: what I was going to say is that when people are saying, and you did
Gamal Turawa: it there, we were disgusted and we're now waking up.
Gamal Turawa: And I'm like, well, who's we? Because some of us have been aware of this
Gamal Turawa: and been saying this for years, all our lives. This is our lived experience.
Gamal Turawa: So when there's a we, it's not a we for
Gamal Turawa: us. Yeah, you're just finally recognising the
Gamal Turawa: world we've been talking about for years. And that, to me, is the
Gamal Turawa: difference. But even in the language of
Gamal Turawa: talking around that change, people are still saying we and we thought, there's not
Gamal Turawa: a we, there's a you and an us at the moment, right?
Gamal Turawa: We've got to get to the we. So what's the
Joanne Lockwood: bridge to get to the we, then? How can I use we in a
Joanne Lockwood: different context? I would say it's about
Gamal Turawa: recognising the emotion, recognise the injustice,
Gamal Turawa: right? And the we for me is people who
Gamal Turawa: want change. I
Gamal Turawa: speak as a person who wants change and I
Gamal Turawa: stand shoulder to shoulder with people that want change. That's
Gamal Turawa: the we,
Gamal Turawa: the we that's disgusted and angered to me,
Gamal Turawa: that's an us and them, because we've been disgusted and angered for years.
Gamal Turawa: We've been saying it for years. That isn't the we that's you and
Gamal Turawa: us, but the people that want to stand shoulder to shoulder,
Gamal Turawa: want to make a difference, want to change things, want to improve things
Gamal Turawa: for the better. That's the we I want to be part of.
Joanne Lockwood: Okay, so can I pull up a chair at
Joanne Lockwood: your table and be we disgusted with you? Because
Joanne Lockwood: I want to join the I am disgusted table now. I want to
Joanne Lockwood: wake up to this injustice. I want to be part of that change. So
Joanne Lockwood: that's the table I want to sit at. Those are the conversations I want to
Joanne Lockwood: have. And that's what highlighted to me that I wasn't at the right table. I've
Joanne Lockwood: always been on the wrong table, having the wrong conversations. Yeah.
Gamal Turawa: And the other part is be disgusted. But if you're going to sit at the
Gamal Turawa: table, come to the table to do something.
Gamal Turawa: It's not enough to be disgusted, it's not
Gamal Turawa: enough to be angry,
Gamal Turawa: because that can go away. It's almost
Gamal Turawa: like the Angela Davis quote, it's not about being
Gamal Turawa: non racist, it's about being
Gamal Turawa: antiracist.
Gamal Turawa: It's not about being nondiscriminatory. Yeah. So it's not enough to
Gamal Turawa: say you're offended. What do you do with that?
Joanne Lockwood: You can't sit on the fence and take a middle ground. You have to stand
Joanne Lockwood: for something. Yeah. That's the important part. Wherever
Joanne Lockwood: is you see me speak. And one of the things I talk about is
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion is about it's holistic, active and
Joanne Lockwood: deliberate. You can't be passively inclusive. You can't be accidentally
Joanne Lockwood: inclusive. By doing nothing, you're saying nothing. By saying nothing, you're
Joanne Lockwood: letting it pass. So you have to reach out and say, I stand
Joanne Lockwood: for this, I'm being active about this. And I'm not saying
Joanne Lockwood: when I talk about holistic, it can't be a bit of, well, you're okay, but
Joanne Lockwood: you're not. I think it's about recognising that you got to be inclusive for all
Joanne Lockwood: people at this moment, we talk about Black Lives Matter,
Joanne Lockwood: but when we also talk about other things in their context,
Joanne Lockwood: we can't say, well, black lives matter, but trans lives don't. But this is a
Joanne Lockwood: different time. We're talking about Black Lives Matter at the moment, so other
Joanne Lockwood: things are not relevant in the conversation. But we've also got to look at those
Joanne Lockwood: things in its own right. We're not trading one hashtag for another hashtag.
Joanne Lockwood: We recognise that each hashtag has its own message, its own importance
Joanne Lockwood: that we have to amplify. This is going back to
Gamal Turawa: that bridge of empathy, right? It may be about Black Lives Matter
Gamal Turawa: at the moment, but what happens is,
Gamal Turawa: once we start to cross that bridge, we recognise that actually,
Gamal Turawa: other people need to be on this bridge with us.
Gamal Turawa: Once we've started to have this dialogue, it says, So why
Gamal Turawa: can't we now have this dialogue about trans people? Why can't we not have
Gamal Turawa: this dialogue about gay people? Why can't we not have this
Gamal Turawa: dialogue about, I don't know, people with
Gamal Turawa: disabilities? If we can have this
Gamal Turawa: dialogue in this space, we can have this dialogue in other spaces as
Gamal Turawa: well, because what this
Gamal Turawa: proves is that we can have the dialogue.
Gamal Turawa: That's the important part for me. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: That's so right. I was talking to someone the other day in an
Joanne Lockwood: HR perspective. They had an incident where one of their team
Joanne Lockwood: made a homophobic remark to another member of their team,
Joanne Lockwood: and they were wondering about how much of a big deal they should make about
Joanne Lockwood: this. So I sort of said to them, So imagine they punched
Joanne Lockwood: them. How would you feel then? Well, that's completely unacceptable.
Joanne Lockwood: What's the difference between a punch and words? One you
Joanne Lockwood: can see, one is visible, one is physical pain, one is
Joanne Lockwood: emotional, mental and microaggressions. Is there a
Joanne Lockwood: difference? And I tried to get to understand that sometimes
Joanne Lockwood: words and language are as painful as a physical punch. Sometimes a
Joanne Lockwood: physical punch is over and done with in five minutes, and you brush yourself
Joanne Lockwood: off. And then I said to them, okay, so now we understand that
Joanne Lockwood: words and actions can have equal impact.
Joanne Lockwood: If it wasn't a homophobic remark, it was a racist remark, how would you
Joanne Lockwood: feel now? I'd be completely abhorrent. I wouldn't
Joanne Lockwood: tolerate that at all. So homophobia is okay, but racism
Joanne Lockwood: isn't. So what we end up trying to do is trying to understand that we
Joanne Lockwood: have to have a zero tolerance for a holistic inclusion. And
Joanne Lockwood: by saying that, we can't say that racism is bad, homophobia
Joanne Lockwood: is good, or not so bad, we have to put everything on the
Joanne Lockwood: table and say, all of this is not acceptable in a
Joanne Lockwood: polite and contemporary society. Yeah.
Gamal Turawa: And that's the dream, the hope to get
Gamal Turawa: to. One of the things I look at is
Gamal Turawa: that I'm not here to solve this problem.
Gamal Turawa: It may not be solved in my lifetime. In fact, it won't
Gamal Turawa: be solved in my lifetime. But what it will be
Gamal Turawa: is what we can all do is do our bit
Gamal Turawa: to progress it. Yeah.
Gamal Turawa: And I think when you look at it from completely yeah, just do your
Gamal Turawa: bit to progress it forward. We all
Joanne Lockwood: have to take a step forward and keep taking a step forward and keep
Joanne Lockwood: being visible, active, and
Joanne Lockwood: deliberate about our actions and being vocal and not letting it
Joanne Lockwood: pass. Keeping that in tug of war
Joanne Lockwood: terms. We got to keep the tension on the rope, otherwise we go backwards. And
Joanne Lockwood: that's what we don't want to do. We got to keep that tension there. Yeah.
Gamal Turawa: I remember having a conversation so I had a conversation with my nephew a while
Gamal Turawa: back, and he's a very vocal that guy's not erased him
Gamal Turawa: in another I said, you know what? Do you know how much sacrifice was
Gamal Turawa: made for you to have that voice?
Gamal Turawa: I said, that's the progress
Gamal Turawa: you have that voice, but you don't recognise what
Gamal Turawa: has happened to give you that voice, because
Gamal Turawa: there were some of us that grew up in a time where we weren't
Gamal Turawa: allowed to have that voice and if we did speak up,
Gamal Turawa: we were beaten down. Yeah, that's
Joanne Lockwood: progress. It is. We're finding is that
Joanne Lockwood: people who have voice now, having voice is a privilege, and
Joanne Lockwood: that's a privilege that you earned for them.
Joanne Lockwood: So they haven't earned that right to have that voice. They've been given that voice,
Joanne Lockwood: whereas you had to earn that voice, which is where the privilege and not
Joanne Lockwood: privilege? I think when we look
Joanne Lockwood: at the people who are vocal today, they're
Joanne Lockwood: building on the struggles of the previous
Joanne Lockwood: generation and the previous generation. The previous generation. So you have the privilege
Joanne Lockwood: of not ever multigeneration back
Joanne Lockwood: from the colonial past? I have the privilege of
Joanne Lockwood: not being part of that colonial past, living in poverty. So I have a voice
Joanne Lockwood: because I've got an education, so that's a privilege. But, yeah, you're so right
Joanne Lockwood: that people should remember that they have a privilege by having a
Joanne Lockwood: voice, or the freedom to choose, the freedom to express, the freedom to
Joanne Lockwood: not feel they're going to be arrested, or freedom that they're going to be treated
Joanne Lockwood: fairly. That, again, is a privilege, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, one of the biggest
Gamal Turawa: privileges for me as a black gay man, I know there are countries in
Gamal Turawa: the world where I could be stoned to death, I could be killed or I
Gamal Turawa: could be imprisoned for life. I live in a society
Gamal Turawa: where I can say, I am a black gay man and say
Gamal Turawa: openly, and that's a privilege.
Gamal Turawa: So privilege looks different in so many different
Gamal Turawa: areas. Privilege is not just about
Gamal Turawa: colour. Privilege can be about status, privilege can be about the life
Gamal Turawa: you're living. And that's what I think people forget.
Gamal Turawa: Privilege is on so many different levels.
Joanne Lockwood: Love the way you just said that about
Joanne Lockwood: as a black gay. I don't mean a fact I love you could get stoned
Joanne Lockwood: to death or arrested to be a gay man, but I
Joanne Lockwood: love the way you brought that into the conversation, because I,
Joanne Lockwood: as a trans person, I'm very conscious about where in the world I can
Joanne Lockwood: be, where I can travel to. If I'm
Joanne Lockwood: flying to Australia, where can I stop off? Do I go to
Joanne Lockwood: Dubai, UAE? Is that a safe space for me to go? Could I go via
Joanne Lockwood: China? Is that safe? I'm not sure. So I'm now
Joanne Lockwood: double thinking my travel arrangements, my destinations.
Joanne Lockwood: I did some work in the Ukraine and I politely asked
Joanne Lockwood: the conference organiser would I be safe in Ukraine, and I didn't want
Joanne Lockwood: to put my bias on there because I assumed that it wouldn't be safe. But
Joanne Lockwood: you hear some stuff in the press about gay rights in Ukraine and other
Joanne Lockwood: places like that, so what I wanted to do was make sure that I was
Joanne Lockwood: safe ten years ago, that wouldn't have even been a conflict. I
Joanne Lockwood: would have just gone, yeah, we're going to Ukraine and turn up as a
Joanne Lockwood: privileged white person, CIS,
Joanne Lockwood: het, perceived white.
Joanne Lockwood: So I'm breaking off my own monologue here,
Joanne Lockwood: but I was at this LGBT conference, and one
Joanne Lockwood: of the people on the panel, who I believe identified
Joanne Lockwood: as a gay man said, yes,
Joanne Lockwood: when a gay person travels what they have to do is pack their gayness away
Joanne Lockwood: in a suitcase while they're away and do their job, then come home
Joanne Lockwood: and unpack their suitcase again. And I said, well, excuse
Joanne Lockwood: me, that may be a privilege. You have to be able to pack your suitcase,
Joanne Lockwood: but I wear my transiness, if you
Joanne Lockwood: like, all the time. And the same way that you wear your
Joanne Lockwood: blackness all the time, you can't not be black today, can you? You can't say,
Joanne Lockwood: what? Today? I'm going to go, I'm going to white face today,
Joanne Lockwood: and it'd be okay. Yeah. It's a
Joanne Lockwood: really tricky thing that we have to double think this stuff that
Joanne Lockwood: people who have a privilege of not having
Joanne Lockwood: to double think, never experience. And that's
Joanne Lockwood: a real extra burden to our processing power that we have to live every day,
Joanne Lockwood: isn't it? Oh, it is. I mean, like you, I've done a lot of work
Gamal Turawa: around the world, and there were places that I won't mention
Gamal Turawa: the country, but I was going to do a conference there,
Gamal Turawa: and they asked me to send through a pen picture, which
Gamal Turawa: they put in their conference brochure. And they were happy
Gamal Turawa: with the gay thing. It wasn't a problem with that.
Gamal Turawa: And then they asked me to send a photograph, and I sent
Gamal Turawa: the photograph, and within an hour of sending the photograph, they sent
Gamal Turawa: me back a message saying, when you get to the airport, you need to wait
Gamal Turawa: at this point, and we will have a police escort to escort you to the
Gamal Turawa: hotel. Wow.
Gamal Turawa: And I was thinking, okay, what's this about?
Gamal Turawa: And when I got there, they said there's been a spate of
Gamal Turawa: attacks on black people on the transit
Gamal Turawa: systems, and they didn't want to risk that happening to
Gamal Turawa: me. Wow. Yeah. And you sort of
Gamal Turawa: sit there and you think, wow, I have to have an armed guard
Gamal Turawa: to take me from the airport to my hotel.
Gamal Turawa: That is scary.
Joanne Lockwood: The only slight way I can relate to that is when I was
Joanne Lockwood: in Miami, I was
Joanne Lockwood: briefed by the bank I was working for where I couldn't
Joanne Lockwood: go as a white mean. That's my
Joanne Lockwood: only bit of empathy. And also in La. Downtown,
Joanne Lockwood: around once you get out of the nice bit of La. As a
Joanne Lockwood: white person, I would have to be careful as well, but
Joanne Lockwood: I have the privilege as a white person to be able to go the rest
Joanne Lockwood: of the places. So, yeah, at the time I thought,
Joanne Lockwood: oh, so you mean the scary black people down that road and I
Joanne Lockwood: would have been really careful. So looking back on that, that was
Joanne Lockwood: quite a negative experience, because it reinforced the
Joanne Lockwood: stereotype that all black people are bad if you go down there. And as
Joanne Lockwood: a white person, you shouldn't dare venture down there. I'm going
Joanne Lockwood: to say something which I hope doesn't sound offensive, which
Joanne Lockwood: inevitably say that it probably will be offensive, but I almost felt
Joanne Lockwood: like that was the black zone, the cordon zone.
Joanne Lockwood: Was it like a zoo or something? I couldn't venture in there because
Joanne Lockwood: I needed bars on the windows or keep the car windows rolled up, put the
Joanne Lockwood: roof up on the car to venture into those areas. So I
Joanne Lockwood: was almost like a safari park experience.
Joanne Lockwood: Is this how I'm feeling now about how that was
Joanne Lockwood: categorised as stereotyping, these different groups? And maybe
Joanne Lockwood: that's how the people who live there felt about the segregation and how
Joanne Lockwood: there was that much of a divide between the two communities or the two
Joanne Lockwood: populations. But the interesting thing about that as well,
Gamal Turawa: Joe, is that you have that level where we can sit
Gamal Turawa: there and we can rationalise, but we can think about
Gamal Turawa: it. But actually, there comes a point for some people where you've hit
Gamal Turawa: that point where fear kicks in. I mean,
Gamal Turawa: look at Amy Cooper recently, the woman with the dog. I mean,
Gamal Turawa: she was an Obama supporter, a signed up Democrat, she
Gamal Turawa: was part of so many groups. Yet when it came
Gamal Turawa: to that point of fear, that stuff
Gamal Turawa: just came up from nowhere. Well,
Gamal Turawa: it came from somewhere, obviously, and there's a wonderful book by
Gamal Turawa: a guy called Studs Turkel, and it's called Race.
Gamal Turawa: And basically what Stud does, or did, I think he's dead
Gamal Turawa: now. He goes around
Gamal Turawa: just interviewing people about a particular subject and he just writes their
Gamal Turawa: monologues. And the opening paragraph on this thing
Gamal Turawa: was about a guy talking about his wife. He said his wife
Gamal Turawa: was driving down this street and a group of black guys started
Gamal Turawa: shouting at her. Her first response was to
Gamal Turawa: lock all the car doors and put her foot down and go
Gamal Turawa: faster. He said it wasn't until she got to the end
Gamal Turawa: of the road before she realised what they were trying to tell her is
Gamal Turawa: that she was going the wrong way down a one way street.
Gamal Turawa: And he said, look, my wife would not say she was racist,
Gamal Turawa: but in that moment it came up.
Joanne Lockwood: And I. Said, So when we want to do that work, it's, how
Gamal Turawa: deeply do we want to get to this stuff? Because we can sit in
Gamal Turawa: the classroom and talk about it and say, yes, this is that. And one
Gamal Turawa: goes yes. But when it comes to actually living,
Gamal Turawa: there's those points when you find out who you are,
Gamal Turawa: if you pay attention, and that's where you
Gamal Turawa: know whether or not you've changed.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, that's very insightful. Yeah. Because the inner
Joanne Lockwood: fight or flight trigger is your default inner self, isn't it?
Gamal Turawa: Yeah. I had an experience
Joanne Lockwood: in Germany, actually. I'd left the after party at a
Joanne Lockwood: conference, thinking I knew the way back to the hotel and somehow
Joanne Lockwood: my compass must have been pointing the wrong way because I ended up going completely
Joanne Lockwood: the wrong direction and ended up walking through this
Joanne Lockwood: park and my mobile phone battery was dead. So I had my satnav
Joanne Lockwood: wasn't working, I had my laptop with me and I had a couple of drinks.
Joanne Lockwood: I probably wasn't making the best decisions. And I got into this park and it
Joanne Lockwood: was dark, and as I got further and further, it became
Joanne Lockwood: blacker, for want of a better way of describing, I moved out of
Joanne Lockwood: a white district into a much more racial diversity
Joanne Lockwood: and then more completely black territory. And I was walking through this park and there
Joanne Lockwood: were gangs of youth, groups of youth. I mean,
Joanne Lockwood: gang has its own connotations about the imagery it creates, but there are
Joanne Lockwood: groups of people who were black gathering in this park,
Joanne Lockwood: playing with bikes. They were playing music, enjoying each
Joanne Lockwood: other's company. And I felt really unsafe.
Joanne Lockwood: One, because I didn't know where I was, I was lost. Two, I was a
Joanne Lockwood: woman, they were all men. And
Joanne Lockwood: if I'm really honest and reflect, it wasn't so much they were black,
Joanne Lockwood: it was just they had this sort of threatening, sort of Gangy type
Joanne Lockwood: in a place. I didn't speak the language and I was feeling really uncomfortable and
Joanne Lockwood: it was dark and I had to walk through this park twice because I walked
Joanne Lockwood: through it and then realised I went the wrong way and I walked back through
Joanne Lockwood: it. And I think my biggest fear was as a woman,
Joanne Lockwood: not as a white person. So I was conscious that I was now walking through
Joanne Lockwood: a group of people who were men, young men,
Joanne Lockwood: and I was more worried about it being as a woman
Joanne Lockwood: than being a white person. And I think that was the end. And I
Joanne Lockwood: got out that park and I got back to my hotel and I sat there
Joanne Lockwood: and thought, lesson learned, I'm now a woman, I can't do this.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not invincible anymore. I think in my old
Joanne Lockwood: life as a man, if I'd done that, I'd be more worried about
Joanne Lockwood: my whiteness. But actually, my primary concern was
Joanne Lockwood: about my femininity, my gender. But,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, as you were talking, that really brought
Joanne Lockwood: back that fight or flight thing I had, and I was trying to judge
Joanne Lockwood: it on whether it was racially motivated or whether it was gender
Joanne Lockwood: motivated. I think it was more gender at the time that I was worried
Joanne Lockwood: about. But I projected this stereotype onto the people saying,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm at risk here from
Joanne Lockwood: sexual violence for want of a better way or being misappropriated. It didn't help.
Joanne Lockwood: Some of them were trying to whistle me and chat me up
Joanne Lockwood: and talk to me, and I was like, Get me out of it. Just get
Joanne Lockwood: me out of it. When you talk about that, that's one of the
Gamal Turawa: beauties I talk about, is that it's not about being perfect,
Gamal Turawa: but it's about I mean, the scenario I would give that sort
Gamal Turawa: of ties into what you just said on. I'd gone off to
Gamal Turawa: Edinburgh to do some work and it was a great
Gamal Turawa: course, great everything. And I'm sitting on the plane at Edinburgh Airport, waiting
Gamal Turawa: for takeoff, and there's a voice comes over to Tanoi and the
Gamal Turawa: voice says, we'll be taken off in about 1015 minutes time. We're waiting
Gamal Turawa: for whatever we're waiting for. And this is your captain, Mary
Gamal Turawa: Jane Smith. And it was a female captain.
Gamal Turawa: I immediately felt my body tense up.
Gamal Turawa: I'm a diversity trainer, I've been teaching this stuff for
Gamal Turawa: years. But something about that suddenly thought, oh, my God, a
Gamal Turawa: woman pilot. And I froze
Gamal Turawa: and I felt my arms grab the chair.
Joanne Lockwood: Right. And then it took me about a minute
Gamal Turawa: or two and then I suddenly stopped and I started laughing.
Gamal Turawa: And my first thought was, Where the hell did that come
Gamal Turawa: from? And to me,
Gamal Turawa: it's not about the feeling, it's about recognising. The gift is
Gamal Turawa: recognising when it surfaces and
Gamal Turawa: having the awareness to stop yourself
Gamal Turawa: and not to keep following that path. And that's the gift
Gamal Turawa: for me, is recognising that you're not perfect.
Gamal Turawa: You've got this stuff by the very nature of your social
Gamal Turawa: conditioning. You have got baggage.
Gamal Turawa: And it's recognising that that baggage is going to surface every now and
Gamal Turawa: again. But are you paying attention enough to recognise when
Gamal Turawa: it's happening or are you
Gamal Turawa: just following it? It's learned to be
Joanne Lockwood: able to question your own biases, isn't it? Or your own
Joanne Lockwood: panic. Better press pause. Step back. Why do I
Joanne Lockwood: think that actually, that's irrational, that's not
Joanne Lockwood: logical. I'm using my biases there.
Joanne Lockwood: Ignore that. Now that thought can just go straight out of my head, move on.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's learning to learn how to press that pause and question yourself, isn't it?
Gamal Turawa: That is it exactly. It's
Gamal Turawa: beautiful when you level. Yeah. It's been
Joanne Lockwood: fascinating just to put a timestamp
Joanne Lockwood: on this. We're sort of early June 2020, we're right in the middle of
Joanne Lockwood: COVID we've just had some of the Black
Joanne Lockwood: Matters, erupting, around the world.
Joanne Lockwood: Where are we going now? We're coming out of lockdown. The Government's under pressure
Joanne Lockwood: to let's go to the pubs and socialise, and we're reducing two metres down
Joanne Lockwood: to one metre. So whilst we're not ever going to change
Joanne Lockwood: and go back to the way we were, I mean, certainly in terms of what's
Joanne Lockwood: happened, in terms of the Black Lives Matter, in terms of the COVID in terms
Joanne Lockwood: of working, whatever else we're doing, so where are we going now?
Joanne Lockwood: What's society going to look like this time next year? Oh, gosh,
Gamal Turawa: thanks. That's an easy one, right? Yeah.
Gamal Turawa: Wow. Do you know something?
Gamal Turawa: I honestly don't know,
Gamal Turawa: but I recognise we've never. Been here before.
Gamal Turawa: It's almost like, to me, it feels as a black man, it's
Gamal Turawa: like we're touching the
Gamal Turawa: goal. And we've never come this close to the goal before.
Gamal Turawa: It's unknown territory. Okay?
Gamal Turawa: Yeah, it's exciting. I
Gamal Turawa: love it. Personally, I love this. The energy behind it
Gamal Turawa: is incredible and I'm hoping that
Gamal Turawa: it will create something
Gamal Turawa: that we can't go back from. But I
Gamal Turawa: don't know what that looks just I'm just riding this wave. And
Gamal Turawa: there was John Amici, I was on TV with him the other day, said this
Gamal Turawa: thing. He said, diversity is like pushing a
Gamal Turawa: boulder uphill. Right? And there are those of us that
Gamal Turawa: have been pushing it for years and years and years, and we're pushing it and
Gamal Turawa: it's a slow push because it's a heavy boulder. Things like this
Gamal Turawa: come along and a few more hands join
Gamal Turawa: and it becomes a little easier to push it up the
Gamal Turawa: hill. But the question is, how long do those hands stay
Gamal Turawa: with us?
Gamal Turawa: And how much hill is left or how much hill are we going to move
Gamal Turawa: up? The exciting thing
Gamal Turawa: is there are now loads of hands on this boulder and
Gamal Turawa: it's about how do we maximise? And this is where people like yourself and
Gamal Turawa: myself and other people that do this wonderful work come into our
Gamal Turawa: own. This is
Gamal Turawa: where we're now the motivators.
Gamal Turawa: Come on, you can do this. We know what
Gamal Turawa: to use. Martin Luther King we've been to the promised land. We've seen the mountain.
Gamal Turawa: We've been to the mountaintop. We know what the goal can be
Gamal Turawa: and it's just helping people get there. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: It's standing at the top, looking down, saying, Come on, we can do this, and
Joanne Lockwood: then making sure that the way down isn't full of crocodile pits on the way
Joanne Lockwood: down either. Once we get over that top, we've got to make sure that the
Joanne Lockwood: journey the other side is safe because we can't fall down a
Joanne Lockwood: crevice and go back to the start again. This is not Snakes and Ladders, where
Joanne Lockwood: we get mick with this gain and then we drop down a hole. Yeah, exactly.
Gamal Turawa: The sadness to this and this kind of links into something I was watching
Gamal Turawa: this morning, is that there are people out there
Gamal Turawa: that seem hell bent to destroy this.
Gamal Turawa: And you see some of the stuff that's going on. I mean, there was a
Gamal Turawa: video that's come out this morning of a group
Gamal Turawa: of people attacking two police officers in
Gamal Turawa: London, and it is vile.
Gamal Turawa: The officers are on the floor and these people are dancing round them with their
Gamal Turawa: mobile phones. And you sort of look
Gamal Turawa: at something like that and you think, and there were black youths.
Gamal Turawa: That was what was so annoying. And you sit there and you think, that gives
Gamal Turawa: certain people permission to take their hand off the boulder.
Gamal Turawa: And that's the sadness. That's
Gamal Turawa: the sadness for me, yeah. Without detracting
Joanne Lockwood: anything from what you just said, I see that in my own life.
Joanne Lockwood: It only takes one celebrity to start
Joanne Lockwood: banding around negativity and it
Joanne Lockwood: then calls into question the legitimacy
Joanne Lockwood: and plays back into that trope that black people are
Joanne Lockwood: angry, aggressive people, trans people are predators. It
Joanne Lockwood: allows people to start playing on those tropes, to seed that division again, should
Joanne Lockwood: say, try and removing hands from that boulder to allow it to roll back because
Joanne Lockwood: they've got a protected interest in keeping that boulder backwards, not
Joanne Lockwood: forwards. That's what we see all the time. Yeah. Quick question
Gamal Turawa: for you, if I may. Are you aware of the
Gamal Turawa: JK. Rowling comments?
Joanne Lockwood: I am. And as we were talking, that was the person
Joanne Lockwood: and the fact that Daniel Radcliffe took in there as well and
Joanne Lockwood: posted some stuff. So. Yeah, it's a JK Rowling type
Joanne Lockwood: visibility that makes MPs
Joanne Lockwood: lawmakers policymakers kind of scared because they think
Joanne Lockwood: if someone's has got a high profile, they've got a higher mountain to shout
Joanne Lockwood: from sometimes, and that's the kind of person that does more
Joanne Lockwood: damage. The other side of that is it
Joanne Lockwood: creates angry activists that don't do sometimes
Joanne Lockwood: the cause of favour because they're giving people a reason to
Joanne Lockwood: think, actually trans people are dangerous, they're angry,
Joanne Lockwood: they're just this, that and the other. And you almost like, reinforce the
Joanne Lockwood: stereotype and it's making sure that we
Joanne Lockwood: amplify the good voices and attenuate the bad voices and
Joanne Lockwood: learning to ignore JK. Rowling and saying she has an
Joanne Lockwood: opinion. It's not my opinion, it's not the opinion of the world.
Joanne Lockwood: And actually, just because she writes good books doesn't mean say she's an expert.
Gamal Turawa: Yeah. And the other side of that as well is
Gamal Turawa: about, and I've learned this recently, very much recently,
Gamal Turawa: giving yourself permission to be angry.
Gamal Turawa: It's okay to be angry. It's okay to be upset. It's okay
Gamal Turawa: to be frustrated. It's not okay to be
Gamal Turawa: destructive.
Gamal Turawa: And I got that from I had a friend
Gamal Turawa: know, when this first happened in
Gamal Turawa: Minneapolis with the was the whole of that
Gamal Turawa: weekend. I was really, really angry. And a friend of mine, she's a very
Gamal Turawa: good friend, at reflecting back what she sees. And she goes,
Gamal Turawa: I've never seen that before. She goes, what? She goes, you were angry, but it
Gamal Turawa: was a focused anger. You were angry that you wanted but you
Gamal Turawa: wanted to do something, you didn't want to destroy something, you wanted to
Gamal Turawa: build something from this. And I think that's the thing is about
Gamal Turawa: recognising that, yes, I'm going to be angry, I'm going to be frustrated, I'm going
Gamal Turawa: to be pissed off, but what do I do with that?
Gamal Turawa: What do I do with it?
Gamal Turawa: Because that's what gives me the permission to move forward. That's what
Gamal Turawa: motivates me. If I just sit with it and allow it to talk, like
Gamal Turawa: just do nothing, then it becomes destructive.
Gamal Turawa: I'm angry, but what am I going to do with it?
Gamal Turawa: And I think out of, if anything, for me, that's the biggest lesson that's
Gamal Turawa: come out of this for me. I have every right to be
Gamal Turawa: angry.
Joanne Lockwood: Wow. That is
Joanne Lockwood: a powerful close. Amazing.
Gamal Turawa: Thanks, G. You're welcome.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, thank you. Well, I'm sure everyone who's listening
Joanne Lockwood: is going to agree there's lots to ponder there and take inspiration from.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's okay to be angry. It's what we do with that anger that's the
Joanne Lockwood: important thing, how we focus that. So how can our listeners get in touch with
Joanne Lockwood: you? You can get in touch with me on my email, which
Gamal Turawa: is
Gamal Turawa: info@purplefrogonnections.com,
Gamal Turawa: or you can cheque out my LinkedIn profile. I'm sure that you will
Gamal Turawa: have my name spelt on your website, on the
Gamal Turawa: podcast, either of those, or you can contact me via
Gamal Turawa: Twitter. Purple wisdom is my Twitter handle. More than
Gamal Turawa: happy to talk there or my website,
Gamal Turawa: www.purplefrogconnections.com.
Joanne Lockwood: Awesome. I'm sure many people are going to be in contact with you.
Joanne Lockwood: It's been extreme privilege to have this just over
Joanne Lockwood: an hour with you today and hear your thoughts, insights and also a huge
Joanne Lockwood: thank you to the listeners for tuning in and listening.
Joanne Lockwood: Please do subscribe to keep updated on future episodes of the Inclusion
Joanne Lockwood: Bites podcast that's bites. Please tell your friends
Joanne Lockwood: and your colleagues. I have a number of exciting guests lined up
Joanne Lockwood: over the next few weeks and months that I'm sure you'll also be inspired by.
Joanne Lockwood: Remember, if you'd like to be a guest, then please let me know. I'd also
Joanne Lockwood: welcome any feedback and suggestions you may have to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: So, to wrap up, my name is Joanne Lockwood and.