WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.410 --> 00:00:04.158 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the 2 00:00:04.164 --> 00:00:07.886 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number of 3 00:00:07.908 --> 00:00:11.326 amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subject of 4 00:00:11.348 --> 00:00:14.958 inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place 5 00:00:15.044 --> 00:00:18.574 for everyone to thrive in. If you'd like to join me in the future, then 6 00:00:18.612 --> 00:00:20.046 please do drop me a line to 7 00:00:20.068 --> 00:00:23.498 jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 8 00:00:23.594 --> 00:00:26.534 That's seechangehappen.co 9 00:00:26.652 --> 00:00:30.402 .uk. You'll be able to catch up with all of the shows on itunes, 10 00:00:30.466 --> 00:00:34.226 Spotify, and, of course, all of the other usual places. So plug 11 00:00:34.258 --> 00:00:37.720 in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. 12 00:00:38.510 --> 00:00:42.074 Today is episode nine with the title a 13 00:00:42.112 --> 00:00:45.574 perspective from the first black, openly 14 00:00:45.622 --> 00:00:49.386 gay, now retired police officer. And I have 15 00:00:49.408 --> 00:00:52.530 the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Gamal 16 00:00:52.550 --> 00:00:56.206 Tuawa, affectionately known as G. 17 00:00:56.388 --> 00:01:00.014 And I first met G when we both spoke at a mentoring day 18 00:01:00.052 --> 00:01:03.230 for Sussex and Surrey police forces back in 2019. 19 00:01:04.150 --> 00:01:07.582 G describes himself as a diversity and dignity 20 00:01:07.646 --> 00:01:10.514 facilitator and who says his 21 00:01:10.552 --> 00:01:13.010 superpower is invisibility? 22 00:01:14.070 --> 00:01:16.440 So. Hello, G. Welcome to the show. 23 00:01:18.010 --> 00:01:21.574 Hello, Jo, How are you doing? I'm great, thank you. 24 00:01:21.692 --> 00:01:25.414 So tell me, why do we need a more 25 00:01:25.452 --> 00:01:27.510 open dialogue on race? 26 00:01:28.990 --> 00:01:32.474 I think we need a more open dialogue because there's a lot 27 00:01:32.512 --> 00:01:36.266 of emotions. There's a 28 00:01:36.288 --> 00:01:39.430 lot of emotions, deep emotions like anger, 29 00:01:39.510 --> 00:01:42.990 frustration, fear, 30 00:01:43.490 --> 00:01:47.178 all this in this mix that is in the middle of this dialogue. 31 00:01:47.274 --> 00:01:50.734 And until we get through that, we 32 00:01:50.772 --> 00:01:54.254 can't get to the point where we can start to talk to each other. 33 00:01:54.452 --> 00:01:57.922 And what I try and do is I try and be a bridge through those 34 00:01:57.976 --> 00:02:01.826 emotions to navigate that stuff, so that we can get to 35 00:02:01.848 --> 00:02:05.474 a place where we can actually hear each other rather than tell 36 00:02:05.512 --> 00:02:09.220 each other. That's the big thing. 37 00:02:11.930 --> 00:02:15.494 I'm white. Whilst I know people 38 00:02:15.612 --> 00:02:18.986 of all skin colours, ethnicities and 39 00:02:19.008 --> 00:02:22.300 races, I predominantly have, I suppose, white friends 40 00:02:22.670 --> 00:02:25.914 in my close circle. And I see a lot of 41 00:02:25.952 --> 00:02:29.610 dialogue on Facebook and in the media and things that 42 00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:33.386 people are kind of shocked by. This sort of kind of the passion that's come 43 00:02:33.408 --> 00:02:37.166 out. Where's this come from? Where's this been bubbling into? We, 44 00:02:37.188 --> 00:02:40.218 as white people, thought it was kind of okay, but we got it wrong, didn't 45 00:02:40.234 --> 00:02:42.880 we? Where did we miss? What did we miss here? 46 00:02:44.630 --> 00:02:48.386 I like to flip that question. I think what white people have missed is 47 00:02:48.488 --> 00:02:51.954 what it means to be white. We 48 00:02:51.992 --> 00:02:55.746 ask people of colour, like myself, black people, what is 49 00:02:55.768 --> 00:02:59.474 racism like to you? And we're expected to be the medicine 50 00:02:59.522 --> 00:03:03.206 and the cure. But the real question that I think 51 00:03:03.228 --> 00:03:06.934 is coming out now, and from some of the dialogues and conversations I've been having, 52 00:03:06.972 --> 00:03:10.610 is that white people are now getting to that point of saying, Hang on a 53 00:03:10.620 --> 00:03:14.378 minute. What does it mean to be white? What does privilege actually 54 00:03:14.464 --> 00:03:18.282 mean? What does this mean? And that's the key question. 55 00:03:18.336 --> 00:03:21.662 Because once you start to get that, the 56 00:03:21.716 --> 00:03:24.110 conversation can then start to flow 57 00:03:25.410 --> 00:03:26.640 in the same way. 58 00:03:28.850 --> 00:03:31.920 Completely. And I think when you've never 59 00:03:32.530 --> 00:03:36.306 experienced a lack of privilege, whatever that may be, 60 00:03:36.488 --> 00:03:40.306 you really don't understand the impact of 61 00:03:40.328 --> 00:03:43.682 that is when people glide through life without ever 62 00:03:43.736 --> 00:03:47.526 questioning who they are, their lived experience, it 63 00:03:47.548 --> 00:03:51.218 just becomes okay. And many people don't 64 00:03:51.234 --> 00:03:54.758 realise what it's like not to have that privilege, do they? No, 65 00:03:54.844 --> 00:03:58.626 they don't. The way I describe 66 00:03:58.658 --> 00:04:02.300 it is like there's two boxes, one box on top of the other box, 67 00:04:02.830 --> 00:04:06.140 and there's a group of people that live in the top box 68 00:04:06.830 --> 00:04:10.460 and in that box, they don't see any of these issues, 69 00:04:10.990 --> 00:04:14.122 but it's their box. And they look around and when the people in the bottom 70 00:04:14.176 --> 00:04:17.326 box are saying, this is what it's like to be in the bottom, they're sort 71 00:04:17.348 --> 00:04:20.862 of like, we don't get that because they don't even acknowledge that the bottom 72 00:04:20.916 --> 00:04:24.482 box exists. It's almost like, in my 73 00:04:24.536 --> 00:04:28.066 world, I can't see this. So 74 00:04:28.248 --> 00:04:30.260 what you're telling me doesn't make sense. 75 00:04:32.310 --> 00:04:36.082 And the barrier is, how do we 76 00:04:36.216 --> 00:04:40.006 build a bridge between those two boxes that can move the 77 00:04:40.028 --> 00:04:43.682 boxes next to each other or even integrated 78 00:04:43.746 --> 00:04:47.526 with each other, rather than one on top and one on the 79 00:04:47.548 --> 00:04:51.298 bottom? I love the words you use there, because 80 00:04:51.324 --> 00:04:55.098 one thing I've started talking about recently in the DNI space when I talk, 81 00:04:55.184 --> 00:04:59.018 is about building this empathy bridge. So what I need to 82 00:04:59.024 --> 00:05:02.442 do is take a position for my lived experience and your 83 00:05:02.576 --> 00:05:06.398 experience, so I can create a bridge between our two experiences. So 84 00:05:06.484 --> 00:05:10.222 I can sometimes maybe use something I can relate to, that I can apply 85 00:05:10.276 --> 00:05:13.886 it to what you're saying. Otherwise, all I do is I hear you, but I 86 00:05:13.908 --> 00:05:17.746 can't apply it. I don't have a reference point. So this is 87 00:05:17.768 --> 00:05:20.386 this empathy bridge that you use the word bridge, and I love that. And I 88 00:05:20.408 --> 00:05:23.890 think we'll try and do is create this bridge. Because 89 00:05:24.040 --> 00:05:27.806 often, I'm sure you find this as a person with a minority 90 00:05:27.918 --> 00:05:31.458 characteristic, if you like. You seem to be the one doing all the empathy 91 00:05:31.634 --> 00:05:35.334 and actually you want to share that responsibility. So we both meet in the middle 92 00:05:35.372 --> 00:05:38.406 of the bridge rather than coming to my side or coming to your side all 93 00:05:38.428 --> 00:05:42.106 the time. Yeah. One of the things I always add to that is 94 00:05:42.128 --> 00:05:45.210 that I always try and remove the word understanding 95 00:05:45.950 --> 00:05:49.610 because I think that word understanding becomes a big barrier to that 96 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:53.454 building that bridge. You will never understand the 97 00:05:53.492 --> 00:05:57.034 world I live in, no matter how much I try and describe 98 00:05:57.082 --> 00:06:00.698 it. So it's not about understand, it's just about to me, it's 99 00:06:00.714 --> 00:06:04.050 about appreciating that we live in different worlds. 100 00:06:06.470 --> 00:06:10.098 I remember a conversation I had with 101 00:06:10.184 --> 00:06:12.980 a senior police officers a few years ago, 102 00:06:13.990 --> 00:06:17.800 and they were talking about trans issues, and they said, 103 00:06:18.410 --> 00:06:22.200 I really don't get trans issues. I can't get my head around it 104 00:06:22.570 --> 00:06:25.080 and I said, It's not yours to get. 105 00:06:26.490 --> 00:06:29.206 And she looks at me and she goes, what do you mean? I said, all 106 00:06:29.228 --> 00:06:32.854 you have to do is appreciate that it's somebody else's 107 00:06:32.902 --> 00:06:36.586 world. That's the world that they live in. You don't have to get it, you 108 00:06:36.608 --> 00:06:40.254 don't have to understand it. You just have to appreciate that it's different to your 109 00:06:40.292 --> 00:06:44.046 world. And that's what people want, to be appreciated, to 110 00:06:44.068 --> 00:06:47.774 be recognised for who they are, not who you think they should 111 00:06:47.812 --> 00:06:51.134 be. Oh, completely. Yeah, 112 00:06:51.332 --> 00:06:55.102 that's completely true. When you talk about identity, you don't have to get someone's identity, 113 00:06:55.246 --> 00:06:58.802 you just have to embrace the fact that they have an identity and it's important 114 00:06:58.856 --> 00:07:00.420 to them. Exactly. 115 00:07:05.270 --> 00:07:08.726 I cast myself as non religious, but I don't try 116 00:07:08.748 --> 00:07:12.306 and disagree with somebody who has a faith or a belief, because that's 117 00:07:12.338 --> 00:07:16.166 important to them. I don't have that. I accept and 118 00:07:16.188 --> 00:07:19.382 I recognise and I celebrate the fact that that makes you special 119 00:07:19.436 --> 00:07:23.162 and that's who you are. And I need to value you, 120 00:07:23.216 --> 00:07:26.986 including that element of your life. Yeah, you just 121 00:07:27.008 --> 00:07:30.234 highlighted the other thing is the other thing for me is that identity is not 122 00:07:30.272 --> 00:07:33.610 fixed. We all have multiple identities. 123 00:07:34.750 --> 00:07:38.560 I mean, looking at this whole scenario and 124 00:07:38.930 --> 00:07:42.718 this movement that is happening at the moment, I can look at it as 125 00:07:42.724 --> 00:07:46.442 a black man, I can look at it as an ex police officer as well, 126 00:07:46.516 --> 00:07:50.146 so there's so many different hats that I can use to look at this 127 00:07:50.168 --> 00:07:53.986 scenario. I can look at it as a facilitator. So I think 128 00:07:54.008 --> 00:07:57.846 the other thing is recognising that our identity is not fixed and 129 00:07:57.868 --> 00:08:01.622 sometimes I could be speaking to you, but I may be speaking to you 130 00:08:01.676 --> 00:08:05.478 as a facilitator, but you might be hearing me as a 131 00:08:05.484 --> 00:08:09.066 black man, so then the 132 00:08:09.088 --> 00:08:11.370 conversation gets kind of lost. 133 00:08:13.070 --> 00:08:16.714 So I think it's about being clear of where we're speaking from and 134 00:08:16.752 --> 00:08:20.060 how we're speaking. Yeah. 135 00:08:21.230 --> 00:08:24.926 In a parallel way of bridging what you've just said. 136 00:08:25.108 --> 00:08:28.878 I get that, because often I see people talking to me as a 137 00:08:28.884 --> 00:08:32.158 trans person, rather than talking to me as an entrepreneur, a 138 00:08:32.164 --> 00:08:36.014 businesswoman, a speaker, a trainer. They're seeing 139 00:08:36.052 --> 00:08:39.838 my primary identity of, oh, she's trans as being. And then there's 140 00:08:39.854 --> 00:08:43.650 always thoughts in their head about whether they're confused by that or not before 141 00:08:43.800 --> 00:08:47.266 I have to wade through that. So what you're saying there is this would be 142 00:08:47.288 --> 00:08:50.646 building my bridge to you, is trying to relate to saying people are judging you 143 00:08:50.668 --> 00:08:53.894 as a black man first or a gay man first, or sometimes a gay black 144 00:08:53.932 --> 00:08:56.200 man first, before they understand 145 00:08:57.530 --> 00:09:01.174 your perspective, intelligence, your insight, et cetera, et cetera. 146 00:09:01.302 --> 00:09:05.062 Yeah. And that's why I say invisibility is my superpower. 147 00:09:05.206 --> 00:09:08.758 Because one of the things I'd like to think I'm good at is when I'm 148 00:09:08.774 --> 00:09:12.446 facilitating groups. I get to a point where they forget that 149 00:09:12.468 --> 00:09:16.206 I'm black, they forget that I'm a gay man, and they get 150 00:09:16.228 --> 00:09:19.406 so engrossed in the conversation that I fade into the 151 00:09:19.428 --> 00:09:23.186 background and can work with the conversation. And to 152 00:09:23.208 --> 00:09:25.700 me, that's the beautiful thing about the work I do. 153 00:09:29.030 --> 00:09:32.626 I just think of you as g, but I 154 00:09:32.648 --> 00:09:36.194 don't erase your gayness or your 155 00:09:36.232 --> 00:09:39.538 blackness. I don't erase that because that's part of you. As far as I'm 156 00:09:39.554 --> 00:09:42.680 concerned, I would never describe you as my gay black friend. 157 00:09:43.610 --> 00:09:46.760 You're my friend. But I understand 158 00:09:47.210 --> 00:09:50.954 if I need some insight, perhaps some of the conversation we're having 159 00:09:50.992 --> 00:09:54.538 today. I know you're a great person because you have the insight and 160 00:09:54.544 --> 00:09:58.234 the lived experience that is valuable for the world, not just 161 00:09:58.272 --> 00:10:02.106 me. Yeah. And what's beautiful about relationships 162 00:10:02.138 --> 00:10:05.422 like yours and mine, Joe, is that what I like about my life 163 00:10:05.476 --> 00:10:09.280 is I've managed to meet and 164 00:10:10.210 --> 00:10:13.834 form relationships or friendships with people from across 165 00:10:13.972 --> 00:10:17.300 a wide spectrum. And to me, 166 00:10:17.750 --> 00:10:21.300 it's not what a person is, it's who they are in their heart. 167 00:10:22.150 --> 00:10:25.570 What do they stand for, what are their values? That's what I like to connect 168 00:10:25.640 --> 00:10:29.174 with. I'm not about whether 169 00:10:29.212 --> 00:10:32.630 they're this or they're that, but actually, do you believe 170 00:10:32.780 --> 00:10:36.518 in humanity? Do you believe we work together? Do you 171 00:10:36.524 --> 00:10:40.338 believe we are one? That's what's important to 172 00:10:40.364 --> 00:10:43.126 me. One of the things you picked up then is one of the things I've 173 00:10:43.158 --> 00:10:46.860 been working on recently is that there's a phrase people use 174 00:10:47.950 --> 00:10:50.970 which is actually quite insulting, 175 00:10:51.630 --> 00:10:55.454 when people say things like and I've had it said, 176 00:10:55.492 --> 00:10:58.666 it was said to me yesterday, actually, and says, when I see you, I don't 177 00:10:58.698 --> 00:11:02.206 see your colour. And I find that 178 00:11:02.228 --> 00:11:05.760 phrase, my colour is a very important part 179 00:11:06.150 --> 00:11:09.538 of my identity. You don't have to judge me by it, but 180 00:11:09.624 --> 00:11:13.246 recognise that it is a part of my identity. So when you don't 181 00:11:13.278 --> 00:11:16.360 see that, you actually don't see a part of me. 182 00:11:18.250 --> 00:11:21.400 Completely. And I say that about many different people. 183 00:11:22.010 --> 00:11:25.720 Whilst I don't want to be known as Joe, the trans person, 184 00:11:26.170 --> 00:11:29.946 I want you to know the fact that that is part of my identity and 185 00:11:29.968 --> 00:11:33.686 that is what gives me some strength, because I'm 186 00:11:33.718 --> 00:11:37.114 sure you have resilience inside you 187 00:11:37.232 --> 00:11:40.060 that has come from your lived experience. 188 00:11:41.070 --> 00:11:44.720 And that's important to celebrate, isn't it? Yeah. 189 00:11:47.250 --> 00:11:49.774 Sorry, I was going to say one of the things, and I don't know whether 190 00:11:49.812 --> 00:11:53.362 it's similar for people of the trans 191 00:11:53.416 --> 00:11:56.610 community, but one of the things for me 192 00:11:56.760 --> 00:11:59.700 is I have had to work hard 193 00:12:00.390 --> 00:12:03.890 to value my blackness, to value my gayness. 194 00:12:06.710 --> 00:12:08.950 It took me to the point of suicide. 195 00:12:11.210 --> 00:12:14.870 I didn't actually come out until I was in my 40s, early 196 00:12:14.940 --> 00:12:18.726 forty, s. And the reason why it took me so long is because 197 00:12:18.908 --> 00:12:22.554 I was listening to all the negative messages in the world that 198 00:12:22.592 --> 00:12:26.234 told me that being gay was wrong. I was 199 00:12:26.272 --> 00:12:29.882 listening to all the negative messages in the world who told me that being black, 200 00:12:29.936 --> 00:12:33.262 I was less than and all of those 201 00:12:33.316 --> 00:12:37.120 things, all that negativity built up. And 202 00:12:37.490 --> 00:12:41.326 I say I was lucky to have a breakdown. I was lucky to get to 203 00:12:41.348 --> 00:12:45.010 that point of suicide, because at that point, the question 204 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:48.660 came up about, okay, who actually are you? 205 00:12:49.510 --> 00:12:52.814 And I remember being asked a question of who defines 206 00:12:52.862 --> 00:12:56.638 you? And I'm sort of like coming up to my 207 00:12:56.664 --> 00:13:00.386 40s thinking, I've never heard that phrase before. No one's 208 00:13:00.418 --> 00:13:03.814 ever actually asked me to define myself. I thought I had to 209 00:13:03.852 --> 00:13:07.080 be what people expected me to be, 210 00:13:08.170 --> 00:13:11.546 not who I could be. And I thought that for me to say this is 211 00:13:11.568 --> 00:13:15.286 who I am, was selfish. That was my conditioning, 212 00:13:15.318 --> 00:13:19.066 that was my thought process. So to get to 213 00:13:19.088 --> 00:13:22.862 that point where I'm now saying I am a black gay man has 214 00:13:22.916 --> 00:13:25.550 taken a lot of internal 215 00:13:26.050 --> 00:13:29.854 battles and struggle and strife. So when somebody says, 216 00:13:29.892 --> 00:13:33.582 I don't see it or I don't recognise it, you're dismissing 217 00:13:33.646 --> 00:13:34.610 that battle. 218 00:13:37.270 --> 00:13:41.086 Does that make sense, as you're talking. That I'm 219 00:13:41.118 --> 00:13:44.130 thinking about, wow, this is so parallel. 220 00:13:46.470 --> 00:13:49.986 I have the same thing society says, trans is 221 00:13:50.088 --> 00:13:53.878 misunderstood, it's discriminated against. You can be rejected, humiliated, you can 222 00:13:53.884 --> 00:13:57.720 lose your house, your car, your wife, your family, everything's going to go. 223 00:13:58.330 --> 00:14:02.170 So being trans is bad and it's kind of weird. So 224 00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:05.626 you carry that through all your life and this is what keeps this secret in, 225 00:14:05.648 --> 00:14:09.446 isn't it? Because you're almost internalising 226 00:14:09.478 --> 00:14:12.460 your own transphobia or your own homophobic against yourself 227 00:14:13.230 --> 00:14:16.320 and thinking, I shouldn't succeed. And then when you open, 228 00:14:17.170 --> 00:14:20.366 I always talk about having this shield where you carry this in front of you 229 00:14:20.388 --> 00:14:23.726 going, you won't like me because I'm trans. You won't like me because I'm trans. 230 00:14:23.828 --> 00:14:27.594 And that kind of almost like, influences every conversation where you're assuming 231 00:14:27.642 --> 00:14:31.346 you're going to get scrimmage against all the time because you're trans. And 232 00:14:31.368 --> 00:14:33.954 the thing that got me out of bed when I was going through a very 233 00:14:33.992 --> 00:14:37.490 dark time, I wouldn't say I was thinking 234 00:14:37.560 --> 00:14:41.254 suicidal thoughts at any point, but why? I got to a point where 235 00:14:41.372 --> 00:14:44.742 I seriously could not get out of bed. I could not function as a human 236 00:14:44.796 --> 00:14:48.566 being. And the thing that got me off this roundabout that I couldn't get 237 00:14:48.588 --> 00:14:52.394 off was saying, I am and I am. Is a really powerful thing. I am 238 00:14:52.432 --> 00:14:55.898 trans. Then you don't have to explain it, you don't have to 239 00:14:55.904 --> 00:14:59.658 justify, you don't have to find a reason in your perspective of, why am 240 00:14:59.664 --> 00:15:03.158 I trans? It doesn't matter, I just am. And they go, oh, that's the jigsaw. 241 00:15:03.174 --> 00:15:06.814 That's the missing piece of the jigsaw. I am. And when you said that just 242 00:15:06.852 --> 00:15:10.506 then, I thought, wow, that is such a powerful thing to have, isn't 243 00:15:10.538 --> 00:15:14.306 it? Yeah. And the beauty of what you're saying there, this is what I 244 00:15:14.328 --> 00:15:18.174 talk about when we work together, is that the labels 245 00:15:18.222 --> 00:15:22.002 at either end may be different, whether it's black 246 00:15:22.056 --> 00:15:25.554 or trans or straight or gay or male or female. But the 247 00:15:25.592 --> 00:15:29.254 process in the middle is exactly the same for 248 00:15:29.292 --> 00:15:33.014 all of us. We all have to come to terms with something about our 249 00:15:33.052 --> 00:15:36.630 identity at some point. And that, to me, is the key 250 00:15:36.780 --> 00:15:40.282 to the bridge building, finding that point where we all 251 00:15:40.336 --> 00:15:43.900 connect and then extrapolating it from 252 00:15:45.630 --> 00:15:49.366 mean. I consider myself a bit lucky, where privileged. 253 00:15:49.478 --> 00:15:53.146 I've worked all over the world. I've worked in countries where English 254 00:15:53.178 --> 00:15:56.206 isn't the first language. I've worked in Hong Kong and 255 00:15:56.228 --> 00:16:00.030 Singapore, where my skin colour has been a minority. 256 00:16:01.330 --> 00:16:04.782 I've been in rooms, in meetings, in social 257 00:16:04.836 --> 00:16:08.366 situations. In Germany, where I don't speak German, everyone has to speak in German. So 258 00:16:08.388 --> 00:16:10.798 I know what it's like to be not in part of the conversation. I know 259 00:16:10.804 --> 00:16:12.974 what it feels like to feel included. And all of a sudden someone says, oh, 260 00:16:13.012 --> 00:16:16.706 Joe, sorry, we've lift you out of that. And he go, it's okay. And you'll 261 00:16:16.738 --> 00:16:20.406 just sit there mindlessly numb, listening to these people talk in German and you're not 262 00:16:20.428 --> 00:16:23.986 including the conversation. And in Hong Kong, I very much felt 263 00:16:24.178 --> 00:16:27.878 that I was racially different to the majority there, even. I was working in a 264 00:16:27.884 --> 00:16:31.274 kind of a British bank with lots of white people out in 265 00:16:31.312 --> 00:16:35.034 society. I still found that people were looking at me strange because I was 266 00:16:35.072 --> 00:16:38.826 tall, big white person walking around. And I felt this 267 00:16:38.848 --> 00:16:42.426 sort of kind of like, weirdness of being unique, if you like, or 268 00:16:42.448 --> 00:16:46.078 different. So whilst that doesn't go any way to 269 00:16:46.244 --> 00:16:49.838 it's, my empathy bridge to you to say, whilst I don't understand what it's like 270 00:16:49.844 --> 00:16:53.598 to be black, I can understand what it's like to be excluded or in a 271 00:16:53.604 --> 00:16:57.426 minority. And also, these are my trans. I know what it's like to 272 00:16:57.448 --> 00:17:01.166 have people judge me by not necessarily the colour of my skin, 273 00:17:01.278 --> 00:17:04.482 but my facial characteristics and my voice and my hand 274 00:17:04.536 --> 00:17:08.142 size and that I get looked at on the tube. 275 00:17:08.206 --> 00:17:11.618 I get looked at when I'm doing things. I get looked at when I'm buying 276 00:17:11.634 --> 00:17:15.314 a coffee. I pick up on these body language 277 00:17:15.362 --> 00:17:19.174 signs and you may feel, well, oh, wow, big 278 00:17:19.212 --> 00:17:22.886 black there. And so you create a reaction. I create a reaction. 279 00:17:22.918 --> 00:17:26.634 So that's my empathy bridge. So when you tell me those 280 00:17:26.672 --> 00:17:30.090 things, I go, I get it from my perspective. I understand 281 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:33.966 through my empathy bridge to you what that means. And then if you 282 00:17:33.988 --> 00:17:37.630 take that to the next level, it's almost like, okay, so now you understand 283 00:17:37.700 --> 00:17:41.486 what that means, let's look at how 284 00:17:41.508 --> 00:17:45.346 we can work with that. What do we do with 285 00:17:45.448 --> 00:17:49.234 that empathy? And when we start to work 286 00:17:49.272 --> 00:17:52.526 with that empathy, what we do is we start to value each other's 287 00:17:52.558 --> 00:17:53.330 dignity. 288 00:17:56.170 --> 00:17:59.766 And that's where the real work, the real magic for me starts to 289 00:17:59.788 --> 00:18:03.014 happen, is when we jump from our 290 00:18:03.052 --> 00:18:06.822 difference to our empathy to 291 00:18:06.876 --> 00:18:10.634 our dignity, and 292 00:18:10.672 --> 00:18:14.330 then it becomes a powerful and profound conversation. 293 00:18:16.030 --> 00:18:19.210 Because we both understand, we're both just human beings. 294 00:18:19.630 --> 00:18:23.194 We both live, love, want to do a great job, be 295 00:18:23.232 --> 00:18:26.846 recognised, be celebrated and enjoy our lives. We 296 00:18:26.868 --> 00:18:30.714 both achieve the same. And our brains probably aren't that different. They were both pink 297 00:18:30.762 --> 00:18:34.338 or grey gooey masses. You've opened your head. The rest of us is just 298 00:18:34.424 --> 00:18:38.274 skin and bones, but our intelligence is probably no real difference, just 299 00:18:38.312 --> 00:18:40.820 different experience. Yeah, exactly. 300 00:18:41.910 --> 00:18:45.698 How that stuff is influenced. I mean, some of the work I think I've 301 00:18:45.714 --> 00:18:49.446 been speaking to you about recently is working with. I 302 00:18:49.468 --> 00:18:53.142 was fostered as a child, and between 303 00:18:53.196 --> 00:18:56.102 the 1950s to the early 304 00:18:56.156 --> 00:18:59.834 80s, thousands of Nigerian children were 305 00:18:59.872 --> 00:19:03.494 fostered in this country with various degrees 306 00:19:03.542 --> 00:19:07.210 of success or failure. And one of the things we're working on now 307 00:19:07.280 --> 00:19:10.854 is how do we get those voices heard? Because you're 308 00:19:10.902 --> 00:19:14.586 brought up in two different worlds. You're brought up with a clash 309 00:19:14.618 --> 00:19:17.870 of cultures, you're brought up with a clash of your own 310 00:19:17.940 --> 00:19:21.582 internal identity. Okay, I've got this white 311 00:19:21.636 --> 00:19:25.378 experience, then I've got this Nigerian experience and I'm somewhere in the 312 00:19:25.384 --> 00:19:26.820 middle. What does that mean? 313 00:19:29.030 --> 00:19:32.354 Who am I? Who am 314 00:19:32.392 --> 00:19:35.718 I? There's a lot of people in that group. 315 00:19:35.884 --> 00:19:39.560 Sorry, go on. I was going to say, this overlapping identity where 316 00:19:40.010 --> 00:19:43.574 you're not British, you're not Nigerian, you're kind of 317 00:19:43.772 --> 00:19:47.478 an expat in both worlds, aren't? Yeah, yeah. I 318 00:19:47.484 --> 00:19:51.234 mean, one of the sad things, I've had some incredible stories 319 00:19:51.282 --> 00:19:54.426 around it, but one of the stories or some of the themes that have come 320 00:19:54.448 --> 00:19:57.850 up from it is people who were taken from England 321 00:19:58.190 --> 00:20:02.038 to Nigeria, and they're in Nigeria for a few years. They managed to get back 322 00:20:02.064 --> 00:20:05.566 to England, thinking they're coming back home, but they've now developed a 323 00:20:05.588 --> 00:20:09.434 Nigerian accent and they come back to England and suddenly 324 00:20:09.482 --> 00:20:13.214 realise they don't fit in here. They've spent eight 325 00:20:13.252 --> 00:20:16.978 years or so thinking, I don't fit in in Nigeria, I'll fit in in 326 00:20:16.984 --> 00:20:20.766 England when I get back. And then they come back with this accent and suddenly 327 00:20:20.798 --> 00:20:24.562 realise they don't fit in. Mean, if I use myself 328 00:20:24.616 --> 00:20:28.030 as an example, when I first came back from Nigeria, I met up with my 329 00:20:28.040 --> 00:20:31.682 old school friends and then sat around with them and realised 330 00:20:31.746 --> 00:20:35.526 I had nothing in common with them anymore. I mean, 331 00:20:35.548 --> 00:20:38.866 they were all willing to help and engage, but I just thought, we're on totally 332 00:20:38.898 --> 00:20:42.440 different planets. I've had this whole other, 333 00:20:43.850 --> 00:20:47.626 you know, everybody has, but there's nothing that connects us. They've all 334 00:20:47.648 --> 00:20:51.194 grown up together, they've been around each other's houses and everything that for the past 335 00:20:51.232 --> 00:20:54.270 day, I've been in this whole total different existence 336 00:20:55.570 --> 00:20:59.358 and trying to find a way to fit in and connect. It's almost like you 337 00:20:59.364 --> 00:21:03.214 have to go back to basics and restart your life all over 338 00:21:03.252 --> 00:21:07.074 again and reform and start new friendships. So 339 00:21:07.112 --> 00:21:10.914 you press pause on your British life, so you did something 340 00:21:10.952 --> 00:21:14.786 else, but in the meantime, time continued for everybody who was here. So when 341 00:21:14.808 --> 00:21:18.574 you joined back, you pressed pause again and started 342 00:21:18.632 --> 00:21:22.226 play, but you were eight years behind them and you go, Hang on a minute, 343 00:21:22.258 --> 00:21:25.560 I expected it to be the same. But it wasn't, was it? Yeah, exactly. 344 00:21:26.090 --> 00:21:29.394 And that's a beautiful way of putting it, but you don't realise 345 00:21:29.522 --> 00:21:33.366 consciously that that's what's happening, because you're 346 00:21:33.388 --> 00:21:36.698 going off. And doing your thing and you forget that other people are moving on, 347 00:21:36.704 --> 00:21:40.506 doing their own thing as well. Yeah, that's really interesting. Can I ask 348 00:21:40.528 --> 00:21:44.302 you, were your foster parents in the UK, were they black or were they white? 349 00:21:44.436 --> 00:21:48.074 They were white. They were white. So you had that mixed 350 00:21:48.122 --> 00:21:51.742 identity as well. So you're a black child being raised in a white 351 00:21:51.796 --> 00:21:55.202 family with not racism as such, 352 00:21:55.256 --> 00:21:58.866 but they weren't valuing your racial identity at that point, were 353 00:21:58.888 --> 00:22:02.686 they white? Yeah. And they used to make jokes 354 00:22:02.798 --> 00:22:06.546 to me, like, don't send him out in the dark, we'll 355 00:22:06.578 --> 00:22:07.800 never find him again. 356 00:22:11.450 --> 00:22:15.218 I remember watching Tarzan and they would say things, know that's 357 00:22:15.234 --> 00:22:17.960 where you come from in the jungle, you're lucky to be living with us. 358 00:22:19.050 --> 00:22:22.714 So I grew up for the first few years thinking all black people 359 00:22:22.752 --> 00:22:26.154 lived in the jungle, and I was lucky to be living in 360 00:22:26.192 --> 00:22:30.026 this village in Kent. Little village in Kent. And 361 00:22:30.048 --> 00:22:32.960 then the other thing about it was I was going to the 362 00:22:33.330 --> 00:22:37.054 Sunday school every Sunday, and then 363 00:22:37.092 --> 00:22:40.750 when my dad kidnapped me from my foster parents, 364 00:22:41.090 --> 00:22:44.938 I went from this white, British Kent 365 00:22:45.034 --> 00:22:48.802 rural life to suddenly in the middle of Halston in London, which was 366 00:22:48.856 --> 00:22:52.574 a totally black area. My father was a Muslim, which was a religion 367 00:22:52.622 --> 00:22:56.370 I knew nothing about, never even heard of it. So I was in this whole 368 00:22:56.440 --> 00:23:00.286 culture. The food was different, the culture was different, the rules 369 00:23:00.318 --> 00:23:03.718 were different. I mean, I remember coming home from school one day and there was 370 00:23:03.724 --> 00:23:07.078 a packet of biscuits on the table. So I came in, took a packet of 371 00:23:07.084 --> 00:23:10.726 biscuit, took a biscuit, put on the TV, sat down, eating the biscuit, and my 372 00:23:10.748 --> 00:23:14.586 dad came in and slapped me around the face. Who gave you 373 00:23:14.608 --> 00:23:18.426 permission to put the TV on? Who gave you that biscuit? I took 374 00:23:18.448 --> 00:23:22.286 it from there. You stole it. And it was suddenly I was in 375 00:23:22.308 --> 00:23:25.774 this whole different world. I didn't understand the rules, I didn't know what was going 376 00:23:25.812 --> 00:23:29.082 on. And you become a traumatised 377 00:23:29.146 --> 00:23:32.606 child, but then going through all those 378 00:23:32.628 --> 00:23:35.760 experiences, I think I'm one of the lucky ones, 379 00:23:36.770 --> 00:23:39.922 because I know there's a lot of people that had that experience that ended up 380 00:23:39.976 --> 00:23:43.758 in the judicial system or ended up on drugs. And I'm 381 00:23:43.774 --> 00:23:47.554 aware of people who've committed suicide because they couldn't reconcile those 382 00:23:47.592 --> 00:23:51.286 identities. I'm one of the lucky ones. I've got through 383 00:23:51.308 --> 00:23:54.726 the other side and I've come to a point where I can see it, I 384 00:23:54.748 --> 00:23:58.314 can understand it, but I can also use that experience to help 385 00:23:58.352 --> 00:24:01.020 others, to understand where they're coming from. 386 00:24:03.790 --> 00:24:05.050 That's really powerful. 387 00:24:08.350 --> 00:24:12.006 I'm struggling to build the bridge here because that is such an alien 388 00:24:12.038 --> 00:24:15.550 lived experience to me. And I'm rapidly thinking because I've got other friends 389 00:24:15.620 --> 00:24:19.246 who are black or are fostered by white parents and 390 00:24:19.268 --> 00:24:23.086 they've again grown up with this mixed culture. But to have that sort 391 00:24:23.108 --> 00:24:26.926 of that British culture that wasn't quite right for 392 00:24:26.948 --> 00:24:30.226 you, to be whisked into a Nigerian culture that again, was alien to you at 393 00:24:30.248 --> 00:24:32.898 the wrong age, then you're trying to put yourself back into the first culture in 394 00:24:32.904 --> 00:24:36.040 a different scenario. That must have been a real 395 00:24:36.570 --> 00:24:40.358 mind bending sense of identity. What's going on in 396 00:24:40.364 --> 00:24:43.894 my life? What's my anchor point here? Who am I? Who am 397 00:24:43.932 --> 00:24:46.360 I? I am? What am I? 398 00:24:47.470 --> 00:24:51.130 And that question, those questions so go on, Jay. 399 00:24:54.830 --> 00:24:58.234 You go first. I'll let you talk. Go for it. I was going to say, 400 00:24:58.272 --> 00:25:01.660 those questions are not always conscious questions. 401 00:25:02.210 --> 00:25:05.326