WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.250 --> 00:00:07.866 Hello everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host 2 00:00:07.978 --> 00:00:11.706 for the Inclusion Bytes podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing 3 00:00:11.738 --> 00:00:15.358 a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the 4 00:00:15.364 --> 00:00:19.102 subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world 5 00:00:19.156 --> 00:00:22.846 a better place for everyone to thrive in. If you would like to 6 00:00:22.868 --> 00:00:26.406 join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to 7 00:00:26.428 --> 00:00:30.178 jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 8 00:00:30.274 --> 00:00:33.990 That's seechangehappen.co.uk. 9 00:00:34.730 --> 00:00:38.486 You'll be able to catch up with all of the shows on iTunes, Spotify, and 10 00:00:38.508 --> 00:00:41.862 of course, all of the usual places. So plug in your headphones, 11 00:00:42.006 --> 00:00:44.620 grab a decaf and let's get going. 12 00:00:45.710 --> 00:00:48.758 Today is episode ten with the title 13 00:00:48.934 --> 00:00:52.182 Understanding the conflict between culture 14 00:00:52.326 --> 00:00:55.966 versus humanity, and I have the absolute honour and 15 00:00:55.988 --> 00:00:59.614 privilege to be joined by Hend Halim. I 16 00:00:59.652 --> 00:01:03.406 met Hend at several CIPD events and true events in London over 17 00:01:03.428 --> 00:01:07.134 the past year or so, and Hend describes herself as an HR 18 00:01:07.182 --> 00:01:10.242 professional who is passionate about giving 19 00:01:10.296 --> 00:01:13.906 underrepresented people a voice. So I asked Hen to 20 00:01:13.928 --> 00:01:17.714 describe her superpower and she said being cheerful 21 00:01:17.842 --> 00:01:21.558 and diligent. So hello Hend. Welcome to the 22 00:01:21.564 --> 00:01:25.318 show. Hi Jo. It's a pleasure to be with you 23 00:01:25.404 --> 00:01:29.194 and all the guests. Ah, thank you. So tell 24 00:01:29.232 --> 00:01:32.966 me, why is it important to understand this conflict 25 00:01:32.998 --> 00:01:34.650 between culture and humanity? 26 00:01:37.070 --> 00:01:40.842 It starts with liberating yourself out 27 00:01:40.896 --> 00:01:44.686 of everything you grew up learning by 28 00:01:44.788 --> 00:01:48.160 interacting with people and finding the truth yourself. 29 00:01:49.410 --> 00:01:53.098 Because I personally grew up in Egypt, 30 00:01:53.274 --> 00:01:56.606 I lived in Holland and I lived in the UK. 31 00:01:56.798 --> 00:02:00.494 I have three life experiences, so I'm 32 00:02:00.542 --> 00:02:03.874 going to share more details during this 33 00:02:03.912 --> 00:02:07.718 podcast about it. For me, as a 34 00:02:07.804 --> 00:02:11.526 cis straight Muslim, it's a 35 00:02:11.548 --> 00:02:15.314 fight against discrimination and promoting equal 36 00:02:15.362 --> 00:02:19.034 opportunities to create a space for 37 00:02:19.072 --> 00:02:21.530 everyone to be treated with respect 38 00:02:22.190 --> 00:02:25.882 and to not feel 39 00:02:26.016 --> 00:02:28.954 different. Because people 40 00:02:29.152 --> 00:02:31.558 usually have 41 00:02:31.744 --> 00:02:34.846 stereotypes, they have certain 42 00:02:34.948 --> 00:02:38.378 ideas. If they don't deal with the person directly, 43 00:02:38.554 --> 00:02:41.470 they will keep having them until maybe they die. 44 00:02:43.750 --> 00:02:47.314 So I used to come to London as a kid with my 45 00:02:47.352 --> 00:02:51.060 parents every summer holiday since I was ten. 46 00:02:51.510 --> 00:02:55.010 I would see people who look 47 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:58.566 completely different from what I used to see back in 48 00:02:58.588 --> 00:03:02.326 Egypt, because we don't have much diversity in Egypt. We 49 00:03:02.348 --> 00:03:05.842 don't have other nationalities until the Arab Spring 50 00:03:05.906 --> 00:03:09.622 started and then we started to have some Syrians or Iraqis 51 00:03:09.766 --> 00:03:12.220 and so on. So 52 00:03:13.310 --> 00:03:17.066 the first ever challenge between 53 00:03:17.168 --> 00:03:20.554 culture and humanity was at the age of 54 00:03:20.592 --> 00:03:23.914 17. I studied a Canadian 55 00:03:23.962 --> 00:03:27.742 degree and we had a professor who taught us 56 00:03:27.876 --> 00:03:31.694 human rights. It was a core module and 57 00:03:31.732 --> 00:03:33.920 we had a project about 58 00:03:34.390 --> 00:03:37.250 LGBT and Islam. 59 00:03:38.310 --> 00:03:41.874 At first we were all shocked and 60 00:03:41.992 --> 00:03:45.700 because it's something hush hush, nobody speaks about. 61 00:03:46.090 --> 00:03:49.894 It's frowned upon, it's not accepted, and so 62 00:03:49.932 --> 00:03:53.686 on. But she insisted that this is the topic we are 63 00:03:53.708 --> 00:03:56.840 going to do our graduation project about. 64 00:03:58.010 --> 00:04:01.626 So it was a big eye opener to all of 65 00:04:01.648 --> 00:04:05.386 us growing up knowing that those people 66 00:04:05.488 --> 00:04:08.780 are wrong or not doing something right 67 00:04:09.390 --> 00:04:11.690 or going against nature. 68 00:04:12.530 --> 00:04:16.094 Again, Egypt is 80% Muslims and 69 00:04:16.132 --> 00:04:19.630 20% Christians, and both of them again 70 00:04:19.780 --> 00:04:22.590 under the Middle Eastern culture. 71 00:04:22.930 --> 00:04:26.594 So everyone is homophobic by 72 00:04:26.632 --> 00:04:30.466 nature. So we 73 00:04:30.488 --> 00:04:33.954 did a lot of research. We were 74 00:04:34.072 --> 00:04:34.740 completely 75 00:04:37.930 --> 00:04:41.030 surprised that there is a huge 76 00:04:41.180 --> 00:04:44.070 community of Muslims 77 00:04:46.410 --> 00:04:49.914 in Canada who are LGBTQ. They are 78 00:04:49.952 --> 00:04:52.570 welcome. They have their own mosques. 79 00:04:53.950 --> 00:04:57.466 You cannot lose your faith and stop being a 80 00:04:57.488 --> 00:05:01.100 Muslim if you're an LGBTQ person. 81 00:05:02.130 --> 00:05:05.774 So that was something against everything we grew up 82 00:05:05.812 --> 00:05:09.214 learning, that if you do that, you lose your 83 00:05:09.252 --> 00:05:12.590 faith, you will not be accepted, 84 00:05:12.930 --> 00:05:16.690 and so on. So that was the first ever 85 00:05:16.840 --> 00:05:20.386 eye opening experience. And now 86 00:05:20.568 --> 00:05:24.162 attending webinars or events where people speak 87 00:05:24.216 --> 00:05:27.734 about they are in the learning phase, getting to 88 00:05:27.772 --> 00:05:30.946 know the problems of the black people, ethnic 89 00:05:30.978 --> 00:05:34.754 minorities, Muslims, or whatsoever. So I can relate 90 00:05:34.802 --> 00:05:38.470 to that because I used to have an 91 00:05:38.540 --> 00:05:41.962 opponing point of view 92 00:05:42.096 --> 00:05:45.722 against a group I never dealt with or 93 00:05:45.776 --> 00:05:49.402 know anything about. But it just built in 94 00:05:49.456 --> 00:05:52.880 through culture that they are not good 95 00:05:53.810 --> 00:05:56.560 for no reason. So 96 00:05:57.650 --> 00:06:01.166 a few years later, I moved to London to do my 97 00:06:01.188 --> 00:06:04.450 master's degree. That was the first 98 00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:08.126 ever direct contact with gay 99 00:06:08.158 --> 00:06:11.858 people. I had some at my class. 100 00:06:12.024 --> 00:06:15.762 One was open about his sexuality, the other one 101 00:06:15.816 --> 00:06:19.254 was keeping it a secret. I only 102 00:06:19.372 --> 00:06:22.866 knew that with my classmates 103 00:06:22.978 --> 00:06:26.518 during the pride when she was part of it. 104 00:06:26.684 --> 00:06:29.880 So that took me some time 105 00:06:30.510 --> 00:06:33.820 to think that they are not different. 106 00:06:34.910 --> 00:06:38.570 They are really good people, very nice 107 00:06:38.640 --> 00:06:42.250 to us. They have good manners, 108 00:06:42.330 --> 00:06:45.726 they are successful, smart. They wouldn't go to 109 00:06:45.748 --> 00:06:48.960 postgraduate school if they are. So 110 00:06:50.210 --> 00:06:53.770 that showed me the reality that 111 00:06:53.860 --> 00:06:57.378 sometimes someone who is 112 00:06:57.464 --> 00:07:00.942 LGBTQ, according to culture and religion, 113 00:07:01.006 --> 00:07:04.194 who's not good enough 114 00:07:04.312 --> 00:07:07.542 or on the right path, can 115 00:07:07.596 --> 00:07:11.346 be better than someone who's born 116 00:07:11.378 --> 00:07:14.486 and raised Muslim, but who would be a 117 00:07:14.508 --> 00:07:18.280 thief or a murderer or whatsoever. So 118 00:07:19.150 --> 00:07:22.970 what you do in the bedroom has nothing 119 00:07:23.120 --> 00:07:26.618 to do with how good you are. 120 00:07:26.784 --> 00:07:29.740 And from then, I started 121 00:07:31.810 --> 00:07:35.614 loving them, accepting them, giving them all the 122 00:07:35.652 --> 00:07:38.880 respect they deserve, because I saw 123 00:07:39.410 --> 00:07:42.400 and I've dealt with someone for a whole year, 124 00:07:42.930 --> 00:07:46.660 and I loved her so much, and I had no idea 125 00:07:47.670 --> 00:07:51.234 about her sexuality. So it 126 00:07:51.272 --> 00:07:54.740 taught me a very good lesson that what 127 00:07:55.750 --> 00:07:59.414 you built in or get 128 00:07:59.452 --> 00:08:03.080 planted in the culture is not always right. 129 00:08:04.250 --> 00:08:08.022 It's because you never dealt with them. So you have 130 00:08:08.076 --> 00:08:11.802 those wrong stereotypes even 131 00:08:11.856 --> 00:08:14.060 though in the Egyptian media 132 00:08:15.470 --> 00:08:18.090 it's really visible, 133 00:08:18.990 --> 00:08:22.160 and they feature themes about 134 00:08:24.290 --> 00:08:27.470 trans people and 135 00:08:27.540 --> 00:08:31.342 gender, cross dressing and everything. So 136 00:08:31.396 --> 00:08:34.594 it was accepted in the media, but not in 137 00:08:34.632 --> 00:08:37.250 reality. The latest 138 00:08:38.230 --> 00:08:40.690 survey was launched in Egypt 139 00:08:41.910 --> 00:08:45.426 in 2017. The result 140 00:08:45.528 --> 00:08:48.520 showed that 95% of people 141 00:08:49.370 --> 00:08:52.550 agreed that human 142 00:08:52.620 --> 00:08:54.710 sexuality should not be accepted. 143 00:08:56.170 --> 00:08:58.600 So that's a very large number. 144 00:09:03.230 --> 00:09:05.660 From my perspective. So I'm obviously 145 00:09:06.750 --> 00:09:10.506 a person born who lived in England all of my 146 00:09:10.528 --> 00:09:14.126 life, almost all my life. So I would see the 147 00:09:14.148 --> 00:09:16.800 Middle east as a very 148 00:09:18.050 --> 00:09:20.640 unfriendly place for LGBT people. 149 00:09:21.570 --> 00:09:24.926 We hear of imprisonment, 150 00:09:25.118 --> 00:09:28.802 beatings, lashes and even 151 00:09:28.856 --> 00:09:32.286 death for people who've 152 00:09:32.318 --> 00:09:36.094 been found guilty of being gay 153 00:09:36.142 --> 00:09:39.974 or lesbian or trans. I 154 00:09:40.012 --> 00:09:43.238 find that personally really tricky to kind of understand 155 00:09:43.324 --> 00:09:46.694 because. And I also see that with maybe 156 00:09:46.812 --> 00:09:50.506 some cultures within the UK, so we look 157 00:09:50.528 --> 00:09:53.686 at some fundamental Christians, there's some Muslim 158 00:09:53.718 --> 00:09:57.414 communities, there are people who are still anti 159 00:09:57.462 --> 00:10:01.206 gay, anti trans, anti LGBT, who live in this country. 160 00:10:01.328 --> 00:10:05.006 And I think recently there was an incident where there were some schools in 161 00:10:05.028 --> 00:10:08.800 Birmingham that were trying to ban the education of their children 162 00:10:10.050 --> 00:10:13.866 around LGBT people. But the culture, 163 00:10:13.898 --> 00:10:17.586 I suppose, where Islam is sort of 164 00:10:17.608 --> 00:10:21.246 rooted in the Middle east is very strong anti 165 00:10:21.278 --> 00:10:24.626 LGBT. But there's nothing, from what I understand, nothing in the religion or the 166 00:10:24.648 --> 00:10:28.006 faith that says LGBT is bad, is it? It's not an 167 00:10:28.028 --> 00:10:31.830 Islamic doctrine. It's an interpretation 168 00:10:33.210 --> 00:10:36.920 by the people in power. That's the problem. 169 00:10:37.370 --> 00:10:40.838 An Arabic word can have up to 18 170 00:10:41.014 --> 00:10:44.794 meaning. So it depends on the scholar to 171 00:10:44.832 --> 00:10:48.538 choose and manipulate whatever he wants 172 00:10:48.704 --> 00:10:52.400 to deliver. That's why 173 00:10:52.850 --> 00:10:55.440 when the ISIS movements and so on 174 00:10:56.690 --> 00:11:00.218 were going on, they started targeting non 175 00:11:00.234 --> 00:11:04.034 Arabic speaking Muslim because they are easier to manipulate. They 176 00:11:04.072 --> 00:11:07.794 don't understand Arabic. They will believe whatever you 177 00:11:07.832 --> 00:11:11.490 tell them. They wouldn't target someone like me because 178 00:11:11.560 --> 00:11:14.786 I know Arabic, I can read. And the problem 179 00:11:14.888 --> 00:11:17.910 again is the script 180 00:11:19.290 --> 00:11:23.078 was released over 1400 181 00:11:23.164 --> 00:11:26.630 years ago, so we need scholars 182 00:11:27.370 --> 00:11:31.030 to introduce new updates 183 00:11:31.110 --> 00:11:34.758 like the iPhone. We keep getting updates 184 00:11:34.854 --> 00:11:38.540 because there's a new software. So what was 185 00:11:39.550 --> 00:11:42.910 understandable or accepted 1400 years 186 00:11:42.980 --> 00:11:46.558 ago should match the current 187 00:11:46.724 --> 00:11:50.382 and new situation and give a space 188 00:11:50.516 --> 00:11:54.162 to everyone. Because in Islam, we start like 189 00:11:54.216 --> 00:11:57.122 every prayer that God is the most merciful and 190 00:11:57.176 --> 00:12:00.930 compassionate. I don't think God creates faulty, 191 00:12:01.830 --> 00:12:05.394 so you can't really dismiss a 192 00:12:05.432 --> 00:12:08.680 certain group. When God 193 00:12:09.930 --> 00:12:13.766 created them, he wouldn't create something and ask us to 194 00:12:13.788 --> 00:12:17.266 hate them. That's a very valid 195 00:12:17.298 --> 00:12:21.066 point. I think that's so true, where if you have a faith and 196 00:12:21.088 --> 00:12:24.906 a belief that you have a God that you 197 00:12:24.928 --> 00:12:28.646 believe in and is part of your faith, then you generally don't 198 00:12:28.678 --> 00:12:32.414 believe that. That God is imperfect. You believe that God has 199 00:12:32.452 --> 00:12:35.920 perfection. And why bring hate into the world? 200 00:12:38.930 --> 00:12:42.698 We're talking about culture versus humanity here, and it's 201 00:12:42.714 --> 00:12:46.018 become a cultural thing, as you say, 1400 years of 202 00:12:46.104 --> 00:12:49.874 evolution of scripture and text without being 203 00:12:49.992 --> 00:12:53.758 upgraded to iOS or Quran 204 00:12:53.934 --> 00:12:57.254 version six to meet the context. So people are 205 00:12:57.292 --> 00:13:00.882 interpreting the way that people existed 206 00:13:01.026 --> 00:13:04.726 and gathered 1400 years ago about the 207 00:13:04.748 --> 00:13:08.022 way people work, computers, online, 208 00:13:08.156 --> 00:13:11.802 internet, relationships, clothing, different 209 00:13:11.856 --> 00:13:15.626 countries. The culture has changed completely 210 00:13:15.728 --> 00:13:18.986 underlying that text. And you're right, we need to 211 00:13:19.008 --> 00:13:22.640 reinterpret it with a modern lens, maybe, yeah. 212 00:13:23.090 --> 00:13:26.640 Because sometimes you get attacked from 213 00:13:27.250 --> 00:13:30.702 my friends and stuff that I 214 00:13:30.756 --> 00:13:34.146 promote and support the 215 00:13:34.168 --> 00:13:37.634 LGBTQ and so on. So I keep telling them, 216 00:13:37.832 --> 00:13:41.614 defending black people will not make me black. Defending 217 00:13:41.662 --> 00:13:45.042 disabled people will not make me disabled. So 218 00:13:45.176 --> 00:13:48.854 defending LGBTQ will not make me one as 219 00:13:48.892 --> 00:13:52.134 well. It's just a matter of 220 00:13:52.172 --> 00:13:54.898 respect and accepting 221 00:13:54.994 --> 00:13:58.642 understanding, because I'm different at 222 00:13:58.716 --> 00:14:01.900 workplace. I look different, I sound different. 223 00:14:02.510 --> 00:14:05.580 So I know how much courage for someone 224 00:14:06.670 --> 00:14:09.420 from the LGBTQ or any other 225 00:14:10.590 --> 00:14:14.430 diversity focuses. Come to work, 226 00:14:14.580 --> 00:14:18.190 take the courage to get dressed and meet people who 227 00:14:18.260 --> 00:14:22.080 are mostly homogeneous and don't accept you. 228 00:14:23.250 --> 00:14:27.074 So they should be greeted with so 229 00:14:27.112 --> 00:14:30.914 much respect and love for trying to show 230 00:14:30.952 --> 00:14:34.754 who they really are. So you said 231 00:14:34.792 --> 00:14:38.294 yourself you emigrated or 232 00:14:38.412 --> 00:14:42.066 you came to this country. How many years ago was that now? Several 233 00:14:42.098 --> 00:14:45.814 years. I've done my 234 00:14:45.852 --> 00:14:49.702 master's in 2014, went back to Egypt for a year, 235 00:14:49.836 --> 00:14:53.594 got married and moved to Holland for two years and now four 236 00:14:53.632 --> 00:14:56.938 years in the UK. So you've been in the UK four years 237 00:14:57.104 --> 00:15:00.634 as a person that you would be 238 00:15:00.672 --> 00:15:04.382 labelled as know in the broad sense of it. So your 239 00:15:04.436 --> 00:15:08.250 ethnic minority, you also have a faith, 240 00:15:08.330 --> 00:15:12.174 which is Muslim with an Islamic background, you 241 00:15:12.212 --> 00:15:15.906 speak Arabic, you spent most of your life in a culture in 242 00:15:15.928 --> 00:15:19.380 Egypt, but you've also had exposure to a more 243 00:15:20.150 --> 00:15:23.870 northern European, Western type upbringing. Canada, 244 00:15:23.950 --> 00:15:27.654 Holland, UK. So how have you 245 00:15:27.692 --> 00:15:31.254 found it to adjust to 246 00:15:31.372 --> 00:15:35.206 the lifestyle in the UK versus maybe the 247 00:15:35.228 --> 00:15:38.680 lifestyle in Egypt? What sort of big things you notice different? 248 00:15:40.430 --> 00:15:44.042 The difference is there is a room for everyone to be 249 00:15:44.096 --> 00:15:46.460 quirky and different, 250 00:15:47.550 --> 00:15:51.138 but it comes with a huge responsibility 251 00:15:51.254 --> 00:15:53.280 to educate others. 252 00:15:54.850 --> 00:15:58.526 And the involvement of the law 253 00:15:58.708 --> 00:16:01.630 is protecting all those groups. 254 00:16:02.130 --> 00:16:05.826 While in Egypt or the rest of the 255 00:16:05.848 --> 00:16:08.942 Middle east, the law enforces 256 00:16:09.086 --> 00:16:12.580 harming anyone who is against 257 00:16:15.670 --> 00:16:19.446 the norm. The majority, yeah, the typical. You 258 00:16:19.468 --> 00:16:23.030 have to conform to whatever. 259 00:16:23.180 --> 00:16:26.774 It's a preset catalogue all of us should go 260 00:16:26.812 --> 00:16:30.474 through, from baby to 261 00:16:30.512 --> 00:16:33.980 death. So you must have had to learn 262 00:16:34.510 --> 00:16:38.186 English. Did you learn that while you were in Egypt or at 263 00:16:38.208 --> 00:16:41.678 school. You did learn at school, and that's part of the 264 00:16:41.684 --> 00:16:45.370 education to learn Western languages. 265 00:16:45.530 --> 00:16:47.550 Do you learn much about Western cultures? 266 00:16:50.210 --> 00:16:53.870 So the environment in Egypt is one of cross 267 00:16:55.250 --> 00:16:58.690 culturalizing you from an early age, so you understand about the world, 268 00:16:58.840 --> 00:17:02.690 but very restricted about the sort of things you can learn within that culture. 269 00:17:03.110 --> 00:17:06.174 Exactly. And it's mainly depending on 270 00:17:06.232 --> 00:17:09.942 privilege. It depends on the social class 271 00:17:09.996 --> 00:17:13.686 you belong to. Everything can make 272 00:17:13.708 --> 00:17:16.966 your life easier if you belong to a certain 273 00:17:17.148 --> 00:17:20.762 lifestyle. And I would like to mention 274 00:17:20.816 --> 00:17:23.260 an example of two 275 00:17:24.110 --> 00:17:26.650 LGBTQ Egyptian 276 00:17:27.150 --> 00:17:30.614 Muslims who have totally 277 00:17:30.662 --> 00:17:34.382 different stories when they started to face 278 00:17:34.436 --> 00:17:37.594 the society. We have someone called Noor 279 00:17:37.642 --> 00:17:41.214 Hashem. She was born a girl. She 280 00:17:41.252 --> 00:17:44.866 made gender reassignment because she's a 281 00:17:44.888 --> 00:17:48.210 daughter of a famous actor in Egypt. 282 00:17:49.190 --> 00:17:52.594 She only had minor attacks in the media. 283 00:17:52.792 --> 00:17:56.290 She was not arrested. She was not deported, 284 00:17:56.890 --> 00:18:00.280 nothing at all. And we have a different example 285 00:18:00.810 --> 00:18:03.990 of a girl named Sara Hege. 286 00:18:05.530 --> 00:18:09.306 She only raised the rainbow flag during a 287 00:18:09.328 --> 00:18:13.130 concert. She was prisoned, 288 00:18:13.550 --> 00:18:16.410 molested, electrocuted, 289 00:18:17.150 --> 00:18:20.886 and then she was bailed out. She was asked to be deported 290 00:18:20.918 --> 00:18:24.526 to Canada. Last year, she lost her mom, 291 00:18:24.628 --> 00:18:28.014 and she was unable to attend her funeral or say 292 00:18:28.052 --> 00:18:31.834 goodbye or anything. Last month, she committed 293 00:18:31.882 --> 00:18:34.850 suicide in Canada 294 00:18:35.190 --> 00:18:38.370 because she was under severe 295 00:18:39.030 --> 00:18:41.810 depression and PTSD 296 00:18:42.550 --> 00:18:44.820 and so on. So 297 00:18:45.750 --> 00:18:49.474 privilege plays a huge part of protecting 298 00:18:49.522 --> 00:18:52.840 you from the law. 299 00:18:56.650 --> 00:19:00.220 I visited Egypt back in 2000. 300 00:19:00.830 --> 00:19:04.410 So I went to the pyramids at Giza, saw the Sphinx. 301 00:19:05.390 --> 00:19:08.774 I visited the Cairo Museum. I saw the Titan Car Moon 302 00:19:08.902 --> 00:19:12.294 exhibition, the Cairo Museum. And I only stayed 303 00:19:12.342 --> 00:19:16.158 probably 14 hours. It was a stopover on a 304 00:19:16.164 --> 00:19:19.678 cruise. So that was my experience of Egypt. I kind of 305 00:19:19.684 --> 00:19:23.534 resigned myself to the fact that it's not a place I could probably 306 00:19:23.572 --> 00:19:27.314 visit again and feel safe or be 307 00:19:27.352 --> 00:19:31.054 certain that I would be safe. And it's quite sad, 308 00:19:31.102 --> 00:19:34.686 really, that there are countries in the world where someone like myself, who's 309 00:19:34.718 --> 00:19:38.482 LGBT, who's trans, would face 310 00:19:38.616 --> 00:19:41.060 discrimination just being yourself. 311 00:19:44.170 --> 00:19:47.874 I even have to think about how, when I fly to Australia, 312 00:19:48.002 --> 00:19:51.682 can I stop off in Dubai? I probably can't. There's a whole lot of countries. 313 00:19:51.746 --> 00:19:55.494 But should I go to Russia and Moscow? So I'm now thinking about the countries 314 00:19:55.542 --> 00:19:59.258 where it's safe for me to. So I guess I have a 315 00:19:59.264 --> 00:20:02.700 privilege of living in the UK that I can be myself, 316 00:20:03.230 --> 00:20:06.826 but there are many people in other countries who can't, 317 00:20:06.938 --> 00:20:10.558 and they're living in a regime where they feel they have to 318 00:20:10.644 --> 00:20:14.286 hide or mask or cover themselves for fear of death or punishment. And 319 00:20:14.308 --> 00:20:17.954 that must be a terrible way to live. It is. And 320 00:20:17.992 --> 00:20:21.822 unfortunately, I had a culture shock in Holland 321 00:20:21.966 --> 00:20:25.730 when I lived there for two years, because most of the people 322 00:20:25.800 --> 00:20:29.494 from different age group, old ones or young ones, 323 00:20:29.692 --> 00:20:31.880 were cracking jokes against 324 00:20:32.490 --> 00:20:36.262 homosexual or trans people and they don't accept him. 325 00:20:36.316 --> 00:20:39.900 So I was shocked. Like, this is Europe. I thought 326 00:20:40.270 --> 00:20:43.994 you would have the same tolerance I would see 327 00:20:44.032 --> 00:20:47.626 in the US or the UK. It was one of the 328 00:20:47.648 --> 00:20:51.354 most culturally shocking for me because I 329 00:20:51.392 --> 00:20:54.682 thought that they would have that. 330 00:20:54.736 --> 00:20:57.982 So it's by law they cannot do 331 00:20:58.036 --> 00:21:01.726 anything. But because some people know that 332 00:21:01.748 --> 00:21:04.914 I'm Muslim, they feel comfortable to show their 333 00:21:04.952 --> 00:21:08.370 homophobic or transphobic nature 334 00:21:08.950 --> 00:21:12.386 and think that I will not be offended because I share the 335 00:21:12.408 --> 00:21:12.980 same. 336 00:21:19.290 --> 00:21:22.946 Mean. You said you were shocked about hearing 337 00:21:22.978 --> 00:21:26.754 people in the UK or in the US or wherever, you were freely 338 00:21:26.802 --> 00:21:30.646 expressing negative views of people. So did you 339 00:21:30.668 --> 00:21:34.454 believe from an Egyptian point of view that the UK 340 00:21:34.502 --> 00:21:37.946 or the west was kind of free and easy and everyone was 341 00:21:37.968 --> 00:21:41.486 accepted? Or did you get a bit of a shock when you realised that? My 342 00:21:41.508 --> 00:21:45.150 work experience showed me that it's not 343 00:21:45.220 --> 00:21:48.622 the reality. As I told you, I feel like 344 00:21:48.676 --> 00:21:52.046 people just feel tied by the law. 345 00:21:52.228 --> 00:21:55.746 They have to say that we accept them and so on, 346 00:21:55.928 --> 00:21:59.586 but realistically speaking, they are not. 347 00:21:59.688 --> 00:22:03.346 Some refuse to wear the rainbow lanyard when we 348 00:22:03.368 --> 00:22:05.300 give them away at work. 349 00:22:07.350 --> 00:22:11.026 We have really close family friends who 350 00:22:11.128 --> 00:22:14.440 are atheist, and 351 00:22:14.890 --> 00:22:18.406 they come home, they play with my son and so on. So 352 00:22:18.508 --> 00:22:22.154 I was just complimenting them and saying, okay, one 353 00:22:22.192 --> 00:22:25.850 day your daughter will give you one or two of them 354 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:29.706 because you will make fantastic grandparents. So the 355 00:22:29.728 --> 00:22:33.374 mother looked at me with so much sadness and she 356 00:22:33.412 --> 00:22:37.146 said, well, that's not possible because my daughter 357 00:22:37.178 --> 00:22:40.670 is gay. And then there was awkward silence. 358 00:22:41.010 --> 00:22:44.674 I didn't know what to say. So my husband jumped in 359 00:22:44.712 --> 00:22:47.570 and said, well, they can adopt. 360 00:22:48.550 --> 00:22:52.130 So I mean that even 361 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:55.954 here there's still people who are 362 00:22:55.992 --> 00:22:59.110 against it. At workplace, 363 00:23:00.650 --> 00:23:02.680 we had a trans person, 364 00:23:03.850 --> 00:23:07.222 and when I wanted to invite her 365 00:23:07.276 --> 00:23:11.114 for, like, we usually go for lunch or dinner and so 366 00:23:11.152 --> 00:23:14.954 on, some people said that 367 00:23:15.152 --> 00:23:18.774 they don't want her with us, they don't feel comfortable 368 00:23:18.822 --> 00:23:22.238 around her. And I was 369 00:23:22.324 --> 00:23:26.062 really heartbroken because those people 370 00:23:26.116 --> 00:23:29.774 are born and raised here. I thought they 371 00:23:29.812 --> 00:23:33.374 will have more acceptance than someone 372 00:23:33.492 --> 00:23:37.220 who was born and raised, that those people are wrong. 373 00:23:39.270 --> 00:23:42.020 Yeah, it's still the reality. And 374 00:23:42.790 --> 00:23:46.210 as a trans person myself, I'm aware that there are some people 375 00:23:46.280 --> 00:23:49.766 who embrace me and some people who reject me 376 00:23:49.868 --> 00:23:53.590 and some people who don't understand me or don't want to understand 377 00:23:53.660 --> 00:23:56.870 me. And I guess you must also face 378 00:23:56.940 --> 00:24:00.570 that as a non British person 379 00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:04.486 from birth, people maybe you must also suffer 380 00:24:04.518 --> 00:24:08.214 some sort of puzzlement or discrimination because of your accent, 381 00:24:08.342 --> 00:24:12.118 because of your faith, and because of your gender, because you're 382 00:24:12.134 --> 00:24:15.886 a woman as well. So intersectional or even a mother. A mother as 383 00:24:15.908 --> 00:24:19.454 well, yeah, because I. Was once stopped from a 384 00:24:19.492 --> 00:24:23.262 promotion until I finished my mom years, my early 385 00:24:23.316 --> 00:24:25.280 mom years. So it. 386 00:24:27.170 --> 00:24:30.974 So we're going back to the sort of culture versus humanity 387 00:24:31.022 --> 00:24:34.866 thing. So this is the culture we have in the UK as well, 388 00:24:34.888 --> 00:24:38.738 in the workplace. And you're in 389 00:24:38.744 --> 00:24:42.520 HR. I'm in diversity and inclusion, promoting wellbeing for people. 390 00:24:43.770 --> 00:24:47.458 How do you see we can tackle this culture problem we've 391 00:24:47.474 --> 00:24:51.100 got in organisations? What you would advise people? 392 00:24:52.670 --> 00:24:55.450 I would encourage 393 00:24:56.910 --> 00:25:00.170 doing something like speed dating, 394 00:25:00.590 --> 00:25:04.094 where you put people like us who are 395 00:25:04.132 --> 00:25:07.630 different, who are Bame, who are LGBTQ, 396 00:25:08.050 --> 00:25:11.886 and then invite people in the 397 00:25:11.908 --> 00:25:15.426 company to sit, like, for ten minutes or something. 398 00:25:15.528 --> 00:25:18.626 Maybe you will like me. Maybe you will 399 00:25:18.808 --> 00:25:22.594 eliminate a wrong stereotype that 400 00:25:22.632 --> 00:25:26.434 you thought about people. I usually get 401 00:25:26.632 --> 00:25:30.342