Joanne Lockwood: Hello everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host
Joanne Lockwood: for the Inclusion Bytes podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing
Joanne Lockwood: a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the
Joanne Lockwood: subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world
Joanne Lockwood: a better place for everyone to thrive in. If you would like to
Joanne Lockwood: join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: That's seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: You'll be able to catch up with all of the shows on iTunes, Spotify, and
Joanne Lockwood: of course, all of the usual places. So plug in your headphones,
Joanne Lockwood: grab a decaf and let's get going.
Joanne Lockwood: Today is episode ten with the title
Joanne Lockwood: Understanding the conflict between culture
Joanne Lockwood: versus humanity, and I have the absolute honour and
Joanne Lockwood: privilege to be joined by Hend Halim. I
Joanne Lockwood: met Hend at several CIPD events and true events in London over
Joanne Lockwood: the past year or so, and Hend describes herself as an HR
Joanne Lockwood: professional who is passionate about giving
Joanne Lockwood: underrepresented people a voice. So I asked Hen to
Joanne Lockwood: describe her superpower and she said being cheerful
Joanne Lockwood: and diligent. So hello Hend. Welcome to the
Joanne Lockwood: show. Hi Jo. It's a pleasure to be with you
Hend Halim: and all the guests. Ah, thank you. So tell
Joanne Lockwood: me, why is it important to understand this conflict
Joanne Lockwood: between culture and humanity?
Hend Halim: It starts with liberating yourself out
Hend Halim: of everything you grew up learning by
Hend Halim: interacting with people and finding the truth yourself.
Hend Halim: Because I personally grew up in Egypt,
Hend Halim: I lived in Holland and I lived in the UK.
Hend Halim: I have three life experiences, so I'm
Hend Halim: going to share more details during this
Hend Halim: podcast about it. For me, as a
Hend Halim: cis straight Muslim, it's a
Hend Halim: fight against discrimination and promoting equal
Hend Halim: opportunities to create a space for
Hend Halim: everyone to be treated with respect
Hend Halim: and to not feel
Hend Halim: different. Because people
Hend Halim: usually have
Hend Halim: stereotypes, they have certain
Hend Halim: ideas. If they don't deal with the person directly,
Hend Halim: they will keep having them until maybe they die.
Hend Halim: So I used to come to London as a kid with my
Hend Halim: parents every summer holiday since I was ten.
Hend Halim: I would see people who look
Hend Halim: completely different from what I used to see back in
Hend Halim: Egypt, because we don't have much diversity in Egypt. We
Hend Halim: don't have other nationalities until the Arab Spring
Hend Halim: started and then we started to have some Syrians or Iraqis
Hend Halim: and so on. So
Hend Halim: the first ever challenge between
Hend Halim: culture and humanity was at the age of
Hend Halim: 17. I studied a Canadian
Hend Halim: degree and we had a professor who taught us
Hend Halim: human rights. It was a core module and
Hend Halim: we had a project about
Hend Halim: LGBT and Islam.
Hend Halim: At first we were all shocked and
Hend Halim: because it's something hush hush, nobody speaks about.
Hend Halim: It's frowned upon, it's not accepted, and so
Hend Halim: on. But she insisted that this is the topic we are
Hend Halim: going to do our graduation project about.
Hend Halim: So it was a big eye opener to all of
Hend Halim: us growing up knowing that those people
Hend Halim: are wrong or not doing something right
Hend Halim: or going against nature.
Hend Halim: Again, Egypt is 80% Muslims and
Hend Halim: 20% Christians, and both of them again
Hend Halim: under the Middle Eastern culture.
Hend Halim: So everyone is homophobic by
Hend Halim: nature. So we
Hend Halim: did a lot of research. We were
Hend Halim: completely
Hend Halim: surprised that there is a huge
Hend Halim: community of Muslims
Hend Halim: in Canada who are LGBTQ. They are
Hend Halim: welcome. They have their own mosques.
Hend Halim: You cannot lose your faith and stop being a
Hend Halim: Muslim if you're an LGBTQ person.
Hend Halim: So that was something against everything we grew up
Hend Halim: learning, that if you do that, you lose your
Hend Halim: faith, you will not be accepted,
Hend Halim: and so on. So that was the first ever
Hend Halim: eye opening experience. And now
Hend Halim: attending webinars or events where people speak
Hend Halim: about they are in the learning phase, getting to
Hend Halim: know the problems of the black people, ethnic
Hend Halim: minorities, Muslims, or whatsoever. So I can relate
Hend Halim: to that because I used to have an
Hend Halim: opponing point of view
Hend Halim: against a group I never dealt with or
Hend Halim: know anything about. But it just built in
Hend Halim: through culture that they are not good
Hend Halim: for no reason. So
Hend Halim: a few years later, I moved to London to do my
Hend Halim: master's degree. That was the first
Hend Halim: ever direct contact with gay
Hend Halim: people. I had some at my class.
Hend Halim: One was open about his sexuality, the other one
Hend Halim: was keeping it a secret. I only
Hend Halim: knew that with my classmates
Hend Halim: during the pride when she was part of it.
Hend Halim: So that took me some time
Hend Halim: to think that they are not different.
Hend Halim: They are really good people, very nice
Hend Halim: to us. They have good manners,
Hend Halim: they are successful, smart. They wouldn't go to
Hend Halim: postgraduate school if they are. So
Hend Halim: that showed me the reality that
Hend Halim: sometimes someone who is
Hend Halim: LGBTQ, according to culture and religion,
Hend Halim: who's not good enough
Hend Halim: or on the right path, can
Hend Halim: be better than someone who's born
Hend Halim: and raised Muslim, but who would be a
Hend Halim: thief or a murderer or whatsoever. So
Hend Halim: what you do in the bedroom has nothing
Hend Halim: to do with how good you are.
Hend Halim: And from then, I started
Hend Halim: loving them, accepting them, giving them all the
Hend Halim: respect they deserve, because I saw
Hend Halim: and I've dealt with someone for a whole year,
Hend Halim: and I loved her so much, and I had no idea
Hend Halim: about her sexuality. So it
Hend Halim: taught me a very good lesson that what
Hend Halim: you built in or get
Hend Halim: planted in the culture is not always right.
Hend Halim: It's because you never dealt with them. So you have
Hend Halim: those wrong stereotypes even
Hend Halim: though in the Egyptian media
Hend Halim: it's really visible,
Hend Halim: and they feature themes about
Hend Halim: trans people and
Hend Halim: gender, cross dressing and everything. So
Hend Halim: it was accepted in the media, but not in
Hend Halim: reality. The latest
Hend Halim: survey was launched in Egypt
Hend Halim: in 2017. The result
Hend Halim: showed that 95% of people
Hend Halim: agreed that human
Hend Halim: sexuality should not be accepted.
Hend Halim: So that's a very large number.
Joanne Lockwood: From my perspective. So I'm obviously
Joanne Lockwood: a person born who lived in England all of my
Joanne Lockwood: life, almost all my life. So I would see the
Joanne Lockwood: Middle east as a very
Joanne Lockwood: unfriendly place for LGBT people.
Joanne Lockwood: We hear of imprisonment,
Joanne Lockwood: beatings, lashes and even
Joanne Lockwood: death for people who've
Joanne Lockwood: been found guilty of being gay
Joanne Lockwood: or lesbian or trans. I
Joanne Lockwood: find that personally really tricky to kind of understand
Joanne Lockwood: because. And I also see that with maybe
Joanne Lockwood: some cultures within the UK, so we look
Joanne Lockwood: at some fundamental Christians, there's some Muslim
Joanne Lockwood: communities, there are people who are still anti
Joanne Lockwood: gay, anti trans, anti LGBT, who live in this country.
Joanne Lockwood: And I think recently there was an incident where there were some schools in
Joanne Lockwood: Birmingham that were trying to ban the education of their children
Joanne Lockwood: around LGBT people. But the culture,
Joanne Lockwood: I suppose, where Islam is sort of
Joanne Lockwood: rooted in the Middle east is very strong anti
Joanne Lockwood: LGBT. But there's nothing, from what I understand, nothing in the religion or the
Joanne Lockwood: faith that says LGBT is bad, is it? It's not an
Joanne Lockwood: Islamic doctrine. It's an interpretation
Joanne Lockwood: by the people in power. That's the problem.
Hend Halim: An Arabic word can have up to 18
Hend Halim: meaning. So it depends on the scholar to
Hend Halim: choose and manipulate whatever he wants
Hend Halim: to deliver. That's why
Hend Halim: when the ISIS movements and so on
Hend Halim: were going on, they started targeting non
Hend Halim: Arabic speaking Muslim because they are easier to manipulate. They
Hend Halim: don't understand Arabic. They will believe whatever you
Hend Halim: tell them. They wouldn't target someone like me because
Hend Halim: I know Arabic, I can read. And the problem
Hend Halim: again is the script
Hend Halim: was released over 1400
Hend Halim: years ago, so we need scholars
Hend Halim: to introduce new updates
Hend Halim: like the iPhone. We keep getting updates
Hend Halim: because there's a new software. So what was
Hend Halim: understandable or accepted 1400 years
Hend Halim: ago should match the current
Hend Halim: and new situation and give a space
Hend Halim: to everyone. Because in Islam, we start like
Hend Halim: every prayer that God is the most merciful and
Hend Halim: compassionate. I don't think God creates faulty,
Hend Halim: so you can't really dismiss a
Hend Halim: certain group. When God
Hend Halim: created them, he wouldn't create something and ask us to
Hend Halim: hate them. That's a very valid
Joanne Lockwood: point. I think that's so true, where if you have a faith and
Joanne Lockwood: a belief that you have a God that you
Joanne Lockwood: believe in and is part of your faith, then you generally don't
Joanne Lockwood: believe that. That God is imperfect. You believe that God has
Joanne Lockwood: perfection. And why bring hate into the world?
Joanne Lockwood: We're talking about culture versus humanity here, and it's
Joanne Lockwood: become a cultural thing, as you say, 1400 years of
Joanne Lockwood: evolution of scripture and text without being
Joanne Lockwood: upgraded to iOS or Quran
Joanne Lockwood: version six to meet the context. So people are
Joanne Lockwood: interpreting the way that people existed
Joanne Lockwood: and gathered 1400 years ago about the
Joanne Lockwood: way people work, computers, online,
Joanne Lockwood: internet, relationships, clothing, different
Joanne Lockwood: countries. The culture has changed completely
Joanne Lockwood: underlying that text. And you're right, we need to
Joanne Lockwood: reinterpret it with a modern lens, maybe, yeah.
Hend Halim: Because sometimes you get attacked from
Hend Halim: my friends and stuff that I
Hend Halim: promote and support the
Hend Halim: LGBTQ and so on. So I keep telling them,
Hend Halim: defending black people will not make me black. Defending
Hend Halim: disabled people will not make me disabled. So
Hend Halim: defending LGBTQ will not make me one as
Hend Halim: well. It's just a matter of
Hend Halim: respect and accepting
Hend Halim: understanding, because I'm different at
Hend Halim: workplace. I look different, I sound different.
Hend Halim: So I know how much courage for someone
Hend Halim: from the LGBTQ or any other
Hend Halim: diversity focuses. Come to work,
Hend Halim: take the courage to get dressed and meet people who
Hend Halim: are mostly homogeneous and don't accept you.
Hend Halim: So they should be greeted with so
Hend Halim: much respect and love for trying to show
Hend Halim: who they really are. So you said
Joanne Lockwood: yourself you emigrated or
Joanne Lockwood: you came to this country. How many years ago was that now? Several
Joanne Lockwood: years. I've done my
Hend Halim: master's in 2014, went back to Egypt for a year,
Hend Halim: got married and moved to Holland for two years and now four
Hend Halim: years in the UK. So you've been in the UK four years
Joanne Lockwood: as a person that you would be
Joanne Lockwood: labelled as know in the broad sense of it. So your
Joanne Lockwood: ethnic minority, you also have a faith,
Joanne Lockwood: which is Muslim with an Islamic background, you
Joanne Lockwood: speak Arabic, you spent most of your life in a culture in
Joanne Lockwood: Egypt, but you've also had exposure to a more
Joanne Lockwood: northern European, Western type upbringing. Canada,
Joanne Lockwood: Holland, UK. So how have you
Joanne Lockwood: found it to adjust to
Joanne Lockwood: the lifestyle in the UK versus maybe the
Joanne Lockwood: lifestyle in Egypt? What sort of big things you notice different?
Hend Halim: The difference is there is a room for everyone to be
Hend Halim: quirky and different,
Hend Halim: but it comes with a huge responsibility
Hend Halim: to educate others.
Hend Halim: And the involvement of the law
Hend Halim: is protecting all those groups.
Hend Halim: While in Egypt or the rest of the
Hend Halim: Middle east, the law enforces
Hend Halim: harming anyone who is against
Hend Halim: the norm. The majority, yeah, the typical. You
Hend Halim: have to conform to whatever.
Hend Halim: It's a preset catalogue all of us should go
Hend Halim: through, from baby to
Hend Halim: death. So you must have had to learn
Joanne Lockwood: English. Did you learn that while you were in Egypt or at
Joanne Lockwood: school. You did learn at school, and that's part of the
Joanne Lockwood: education to learn Western languages.
Joanne Lockwood: Do you learn much about Western cultures?
Joanne Lockwood: So the environment in Egypt is one of cross
Joanne Lockwood: culturalizing you from an early age, so you understand about the world,
Joanne Lockwood: but very restricted about the sort of things you can learn within that culture.
Hend Halim: Exactly. And it's mainly depending on
Hend Halim: privilege. It depends on the social class
Hend Halim: you belong to. Everything can make
Hend Halim: your life easier if you belong to a certain
Hend Halim: lifestyle. And I would like to mention
Hend Halim: an example of two
Hend Halim: LGBTQ Egyptian
Hend Halim: Muslims who have totally
Hend Halim: different stories when they started to face
Hend Halim: the society. We have someone called Noor
Hend Halim: Hashem. She was born a girl. She
Hend Halim: made gender reassignment because she's a
Hend Halim: daughter of a famous actor in Egypt.
Hend Halim: She only had minor attacks in the media.
Hend Halim: She was not arrested. She was not deported,
Hend Halim: nothing at all. And we have a different example
Hend Halim: of a girl named Sara Hege.
Hend Halim: She only raised the rainbow flag during a
Hend Halim: concert. She was prisoned,
Hend Halim: molested, electrocuted,
Hend Halim: and then she was bailed out. She was asked to be deported
Hend Halim: to Canada. Last year, she lost her mom,
Hend Halim: and she was unable to attend her funeral or say
Hend Halim: goodbye or anything. Last month, she committed
Hend Halim: suicide in Canada
Hend Halim: because she was under severe
Hend Halim: depression and PTSD
Hend Halim: and so on. So
Hend Halim: privilege plays a huge part of protecting
Hend Halim: you from the law.
Joanne Lockwood: I visited Egypt back in 2000.
Joanne Lockwood: So I went to the pyramids at Giza, saw the Sphinx.
Joanne Lockwood: I visited the Cairo Museum. I saw the Titan Car Moon
Joanne Lockwood: exhibition, the Cairo Museum. And I only stayed
Joanne Lockwood: probably 14 hours. It was a stopover on a
Joanne Lockwood: cruise. So that was my experience of Egypt. I kind of
Joanne Lockwood: resigned myself to the fact that it's not a place I could probably
Joanne Lockwood: visit again and feel safe or be
Joanne Lockwood: certain that I would be safe. And it's quite sad,
Joanne Lockwood: really, that there are countries in the world where someone like myself, who's
Joanne Lockwood: LGBT, who's trans, would face
Joanne Lockwood: discrimination just being yourself.
Joanne Lockwood: I even have to think about how, when I fly to Australia,
Joanne Lockwood: can I stop off in Dubai? I probably can't. There's a whole lot of countries.
Joanne Lockwood: But should I go to Russia and Moscow? So I'm now thinking about the countries
Joanne Lockwood: where it's safe for me to. So I guess I have a
Joanne Lockwood: privilege of living in the UK that I can be myself,
Joanne Lockwood: but there are many people in other countries who can't,
Joanne Lockwood: and they're living in a regime where they feel they have to
Joanne Lockwood: hide or mask or cover themselves for fear of death or punishment. And
Joanne Lockwood: that must be a terrible way to live. It is. And
Hend Halim: unfortunately, I had a culture shock in Holland
Hend Halim: when I lived there for two years, because most of the people
Hend Halim: from different age group, old ones or young ones,
Hend Halim: were cracking jokes against
Hend Halim: homosexual or trans people and they don't accept him.
Hend Halim: So I was shocked. Like, this is Europe. I thought
Hend Halim: you would have the same tolerance I would see
Hend Halim: in the US or the UK. It was one of the
Hend Halim: most culturally shocking for me because I
Hend Halim: thought that they would have that.
Hend Halim: So it's by law they cannot do
Hend Halim: anything. But because some people know that
Hend Halim: I'm Muslim, they feel comfortable to show their
Hend Halim: homophobic or transphobic nature
Hend Halim: and think that I will not be offended because I share the
Hend Halim: same.
Joanne Lockwood: Mean. You said you were shocked about hearing
Joanne Lockwood: people in the UK or in the US or wherever, you were freely
Joanne Lockwood: expressing negative views of people. So did you
Joanne Lockwood: believe from an Egyptian point of view that the UK
Joanne Lockwood: or the west was kind of free and easy and everyone was
Joanne Lockwood: accepted? Or did you get a bit of a shock when you realised that? My
Hend Halim: work experience showed me that it's not
Hend Halim: the reality. As I told you, I feel like
Hend Halim: people just feel tied by the law.
Hend Halim: They have to say that we accept them and so on,
Hend Halim: but realistically speaking, they are not.
Hend Halim: Some refuse to wear the rainbow lanyard when we
Hend Halim: give them away at work.
Hend Halim: We have really close family friends who
Hend Halim: are atheist, and
Hend Halim: they come home, they play with my son and so on. So
Hend Halim: I was just complimenting them and saying, okay, one
Hend Halim: day your daughter will give you one or two of them
Hend Halim: because you will make fantastic grandparents. So the
Hend Halim: mother looked at me with so much sadness and she
Hend Halim: said, well, that's not possible because my daughter
Hend Halim: is gay. And then there was awkward silence.
Hend Halim: I didn't know what to say. So my husband jumped in
Hend Halim: and said, well, they can adopt.
Hend Halim: So I mean that even
Hend Halim: here there's still people who are
Hend Halim: against it. At workplace,
Hend Halim: we had a trans person,
Hend Halim: and when I wanted to invite her
Hend Halim: for, like, we usually go for lunch or dinner and so
Hend Halim: on, some people said that
Hend Halim: they don't want her with us, they don't feel comfortable
Hend Halim: around her. And I was
Hend Halim: really heartbroken because those people
Hend Halim: are born and raised here. I thought they
Hend Halim: will have more acceptance than someone
Hend Halim: who was born and raised, that those people are wrong.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it's still the reality. And
Joanne Lockwood: as a trans person myself, I'm aware that there are some people
Joanne Lockwood: who embrace me and some people who reject me
Joanne Lockwood: and some people who don't understand me or don't want to understand
Joanne Lockwood: me. And I guess you must also face
Joanne Lockwood: that as a non British person
Joanne Lockwood: from birth, people maybe you must also suffer
Joanne Lockwood: some sort of puzzlement or discrimination because of your accent,
Joanne Lockwood: because of your faith, and because of your gender, because you're
Joanne Lockwood: a woman as well. So intersectional or even a mother. A mother as
Joanne Lockwood: well, yeah, because I. Was once stopped from a
Hend Halim: promotion until I finished my mom years, my early
Hend Halim: mom years. So it.
Joanne Lockwood: So we're going back to the sort of culture versus humanity
Joanne Lockwood: thing. So this is the culture we have in the UK as well,
Joanne Lockwood: in the workplace. And you're in
Joanne Lockwood: HR. I'm in diversity and inclusion, promoting wellbeing for people.
Joanne Lockwood: How do you see we can tackle this culture problem we've
Joanne Lockwood: got in organisations? What you would advise people?
Hend Halim: I would encourage
Hend Halim: doing something like speed dating,
Hend Halim: where you put people like us who are
Hend Halim: different, who are Bame, who are LGBTQ,
Hend Halim: and then invite people in the
Hend Halim: company to sit, like, for ten minutes or something.
Hend Halim: Maybe you will like me. Maybe you will
Hend Halim: eliminate a wrong stereotype that
Hend Halim: you thought about people. I usually get
Hend Halim: funny comments like, oh, you're Muslim. I didn't know that.
Hend Halim: You don't look like them or you don't act like them. So
Hend Halim: sometimes I feel like they are aliens. They are
Hend Halim: special species, but no, some of us are
Hend Halim: funny, cool and just like you.
Joanne Lockwood: So you mentioned that. I've had people say, well, I'm okay for a
Joanne Lockwood: good. I'm a good trans person. I'm an okay trans person. And maybe you
Joanne Lockwood: almost. People say to you, you're a good Muslim, you're a funny
Joanne Lockwood: Muslim, you're an okay Muslim. And
Joanne Lockwood: it's a compliment, but it's insulting, isn't it? Exactly.
Hend Halim: Backhanded. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: because I'm well behaved and make you laugh. I'm acceptable. Is that what
Joanne Lockwood: you mean? And this is
Joanne Lockwood: British privilege, sort of speaking again sometimes, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? People think they're being kind, but actually they're
Joanne Lockwood: being really cruel by saying that, aren't they? Yeah.
Hend Halim: We're going out for after work drinks. I don't
Hend Halim: drink, but I don't mind sitting with people who drink. I don't
Hend Halim: mind gifting my friends with champagne
Hend Halim: or anything, whatever they like, because I can't
Hend Halim: force my belief on people.
Hend Halim: If you want real integrity, there should be a
Hend Halim: space for acceptance,
Hend Halim: tolerance, and just live
Hend Halim: and let live. For sure.
Joanne Lockwood: I noticed, reading some of the bio you sent me in
Joanne Lockwood: advance, you're saying you're doing a lot of public speaking now, so
Joanne Lockwood: you've spoken at a few events. So what got you into that?
Joanne Lockwood: What inspired you to want to speak
Joanne Lockwood: eventually? It's Bill Borman.
Hend Halim: Because while doing my studies. He believed in me.
Hend Halim: I met him at Talent Leaders Connect,
Hend Halim: where he did a fantastic speech and I
Hend Halim: did my dissertation about recruitment. So
Hend Halim: I approached him and then he invited me to true
Hend Halim: London and then other events like
Hend Halim: Enterprise Ireland, until I became
Hend Halim: one of the speakers, not just an attendee.
Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. So what do you like to speak about? Is it about culture, about
Joanne Lockwood: HR or talent or. What's your passion when you speak?
Hend Halim: I mainly speak about diversity and inclusion.
Hend Halim: I shared some stuff about faith at
Hend Halim: workplace, about
Hend Halim: the challenges of minority group employment,
Hend Halim: how we all get rejected just because of our name
Hend Halim: before even reading our resume. You don't
Hend Halim: know anything about me, but I'm immediately
Hend Halim: rejected. I don't go through the funnel.
Joanne Lockwood: No. We spill over the edge, don't we? Somehow
Joanne Lockwood: we get swept up afterwards and people, we never
Joanne Lockwood: hit the radar. It's a shame. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: We're now in this world where we're living in COVID
Joanne Lockwood: 2020. We all had these big plans for the year. What
Joanne Lockwood: are you learning about? Maybe your own work or your own
Joanne Lockwood: passions? Are you reevaluating your life because
Joanne Lockwood: of COVID Because of the future?
Hend Halim: Yeah, definitely. It's
Hend Halim: a huge momentum, like
Hend Halim: reflecting of all previous years
Hend Halim: my current situation and what I want to do in the future.
Hend Halim: So it's really good. Do you see the UK as being
Joanne Lockwood: part of your future? Or are you thinking the world and thinking,
Joanne Lockwood: where else could you sit down, roots
Joanne Lockwood: and maybe try a different culture? I'm not really
Hend Halim: sure. My husband loves travelling and living in
Hend Halim: different countries, but I want a bit of stability,
Hend Halim: especially that we have a little one. So I want him to join
Hend Halim: school to have some friends,
Hend Halim: to have a bit of stability. Yes,
Joanne Lockwood: I agree. That's very important in their younger years, isn't it?
Joanne Lockwood: In lockdown. Are you having to home educate or is he too
Joanne Lockwood: young? No, he's just two. Just two. Okay, so I'm
Hend Halim: lucky with just cartoons. And feeding
Joanne Lockwood: and balancing that with working as well. So remote working.
Hend Halim: Yeah. Well, thanks to
Hend Halim: Corona, I left my previous role
Hend Halim: and I was supposed to start another one end of
Hend Halim: March, but it was terminated due to Corona. Okay,
Hend Halim: so I'm now in the job application
Hend Halim: phase, reviewing and so.
Joanne Lockwood: Guess, I suppose that's a challenge. Mean, in the HRTA
Joanne Lockwood: space, there's a lot of people being laid off at the moment or
Joanne Lockwood: furloughed, not being brought back. So it's a tough market
Joanne Lockwood: for HR, D I and L D professionals at the moment, isn't it?
Hend Halim: Yeah, it is.
Hend Halim: Optimistic. Yeah, I think we should now. It's a lot better
Hend Halim: than the few months back. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: I certainly see a lot more activity on LinkedIn, a lot
Joanne Lockwood: more people speaking positively. I still
Joanne Lockwood: think we've got some tough times to come. When the furlough scheme ends in October,
Joanne Lockwood: I think we'll see a lot more casualties, but I see businesses going
Joanne Lockwood: back to business and focusing on
Joanne Lockwood: plans and futures now, which they probably weren't doing two or three months
Joanne Lockwood: ago. Yeah, I'm getting invites for
Hend Halim: events end of September, early October. So
Hend Halim: it's getting better. So you're still staying in
Joanne Lockwood: HR. You describe yourself as kind of an HR generalist.
Joanne Lockwood: Is that still your passion, is it? Yeah, it is.
Joanne Lockwood: And are you looking to sort of
Joanne Lockwood: increase your speaking? You want a role where you can speak more
Joanne Lockwood: and get involved with the event still? Yeah, I'm currently
Hend Halim: focusing on diversity inclusion roles,
Hend Halim: where I can advocate the underrepresented
Hend Halim: voices, like, I love to give them a space,
Hend Halim: promote women in leadership roles,
Hend Halim: give diverse people, black ethnic
Hend Halim: minorities, some space in the
Hend Halim: top senior level, because if you start at the top,
Hend Halim: then the people at the bottom will be happy and
Hend Halim: satisfied. Do you feel that
Joanne Lockwood: you as yourself are represented by Black Lives Matter,
Joanne Lockwood: as Black Lives Matter really is focusing on black
Joanne Lockwood: people, you would maybe class yourself, maybe as brown
Joanne Lockwood: or not black. So do you feel that you're being represented in that
Joanne Lockwood: movement and you're getting a spotlight shown on your
Joanne Lockwood: own ethnicity eventually? No,
Hend Halim: not direct, but
Hend Halim: if it works for one
Hend Halim: of the underrepresented groups, then
Hend Halim: all of us will be one
Hend Halim: day will have our turn, because now
Hend Halim: it's the South Asian month. So there is
Hend Halim: a highlight on that. And then in October, there's Black History
Hend Halim: Month, which I'm expecting to be
Hend Halim: a very special
Hend Halim: month, especially this year with the George Floyd
Hend Halim: death and all the revolution and all the
Hend Halim: protests globally. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: I think you're right. I think one of the things that the conversations I've had
Joanne Lockwood: with people around BLM, Black Lives Matter, is that
Joanne Lockwood: as a white person, I don't understand often what it's like to
Joanne Lockwood: be white. I need to understand my privilege and understand what white privilege
Joanne Lockwood: means, and also I need to understand about the history
Joanne Lockwood: of how the UK is built on colonialism, on
Joanne Lockwood: the money generated through the slave trade, and I need to do some more research
Joanne Lockwood: on that. So I think we actually need a white History month as well, to
Joanne Lockwood: say how white people have evolved
Joanne Lockwood: and where our cultures come from, and to really
Joanne Lockwood: unpack that, because it's not just about understanding black culture so much,
Joanne Lockwood: understanding how white culture impacted black culture as a white
Joanne Lockwood: person, and maybe look at the statues, rather than just tear the
Joanne Lockwood: statues down, look at each one and understand the history of that person
Joanne Lockwood: or what the circumstances were, so that we can now put this. We talked
Joanne Lockwood: about the 1400 years of evolution since the
Joanne Lockwood: Quran and was written, et cetera. We now need to look at the last four
Joanne Lockwood: or 500 years since British culture was established
Joanne Lockwood: and the lens through how that evolved and
Joanne Lockwood: how it was built on the blood and sweat and
Joanne Lockwood: tears of other cultures. And I think that's the
Joanne Lockwood: important thing. We need museums of whiteness so that we can go and look at
Joanne Lockwood: our past through the truthful lens, rather than seeing us
Joanne Lockwood: as the victorious conquerors who are the champions all the
Joanne Lockwood: time. And I actually reflected on this
Joanne Lockwood: because I went to see the Egyptian pop up
Joanne Lockwood: Carmun exhibition that was in the Versace Gallery in
Joanne Lockwood: London. And I didn't really think of much of it until
Joanne Lockwood: the Black Lives Matter movement started
Joanne Lockwood: and highlighted to me that I now see that through a different lens.
Joanne Lockwood: The British people were the colonists of that region.
Joanne Lockwood: They were invading these burial grounds. They were digging stuff
Joanne Lockwood: up, really just trying to pillage
Joanne Lockwood: those artefacts and conquering that sort of side
Joanne Lockwood: and stealing these things, taking them back to the UK
Joanne Lockwood: for our pleasure, destroying the culture of the Egyptian
Joanne Lockwood: culture effectively. And I started seeing that
Joanne Lockwood: maybe this Tuden Carmen exhibition was actually
Joanne Lockwood: a celebration of colonialism rather than a celebration
Joanne Lockwood: of Egyptian history. True. And
Joanne Lockwood: I started looking at things now through a different lens, thinking,
Joanne Lockwood: I actually want to understand Egyptian culture, but I don't want to understand it through
Joanne Lockwood: a white lens. I want to understand through the Egyptian lens. I need EgyptIan people
Joanne Lockwood: telling me this story, not a
Joanne Lockwood: white lord with loads of money who's
Joanne Lockwood: enslaving people effectively to dig this thing.
Joanne Lockwood: So I see some of these historic things I've
Joanne Lockwood: grown up with in school through a different lens now. And I'm now starting to
Joanne Lockwood: question how I've been brought up and how I've been
Joanne Lockwood: taught about the British Empire. And
Joanne Lockwood: when people talk about dismantling the British Empire, I'm now thinking,
Joanne Lockwood: that's a good thing, we should learn about what it
Joanne Lockwood: did and what it did to people. But I don't feel proud of it in
Joanne Lockwood: the same way that maybe I did when I was younger.
Hend Halim: I get your point. And I think
Joanne Lockwood: hanging on to the Commonwealth again, that's British territories, which
Joanne Lockwood: are. We describe them as British dependencies.
Joanne Lockwood: Why are they dependent on us? Why aren't we putting
Joanne Lockwood: effort and time into making them less dependent on us and
Joanne Lockwood: making them free nations and not hanging on to this
Joanne Lockwood: colonialism of the past and propagating effectively
Joanne Lockwood: racism, or racism by permission.
Joanne Lockwood: I think we all need to take a long, hard look at the way we're
Joanne Lockwood: taught history, the way we see ourselves. And
Joanne Lockwood: people say that history is written by the
Joanne Lockwood: victors. You never hear the losers perspectives.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes, and we need to blend both
Joanne Lockwood: perspectives because
Joanne Lockwood: we're all freedom fighters. It's just the winners
Joanne Lockwood: are freedom fighters, the losers are terrorists, and that's
Joanne Lockwood: the struggle we've got to face. So you still go back to
Joanne Lockwood: Egypt? Do you still go home? Such eventually.
Hend Halim: We were supposed to go in April for my sister in law wedding.
Hend Halim: Unfortunately, we couldn't go because of
Hend Halim: Corona lockdown, so we missed it.
Joanne Lockwood: How is it in Egypt? We don't hear much about
Joanne Lockwood: the relaxed. My parents at the beach
Hend Halim: and everyone is enjoying their life. They've
Joanne Lockwood: just not had many incidents or they have or they
Joanne Lockwood: managed it. Is it just a different culture? Is it?
Hend Halim: Well, I don't think the media is
Hend Halim: giving so much transparency about it.
Joanne Lockwood: Right. So they leave people to go with the
Hend Halim: immune. What
Joanne Lockwood: it's called herd
Joanne Lockwood: immunity. Yes. So they
Hend Halim: are adopting this style because they don't want to
Hend Halim: stop the economy from going on. So they didn't
Hend Halim: have lockdown for several months, like here. No.
Joanne Lockwood: Okay, so you said at
Joanne Lockwood: the beginning your superpower is being cheerful and diligent.
Joanne Lockwood: How does that superpower manifest itself? I can see you now
Joanne Lockwood: on camera, though. The listeners can hear us.
Joanne Lockwood: What keeps the smile on your face? What's that? Passion?
Hend Halim: It's positivity. Also
Hend Halim: making my family proud. My parents are proud of me.
Hend Halim: I always share the events or the things I participate,
Hend Halim: so it makes them very proud of me.
Hend Halim: My son, my husband, representing
Hend Halim: Egyptians abroad, just like Mosala.
Hend Halim: He's the Egyptian king of Liverpool. We have
Hend Halim: Rami Malik, who won the Oscars for
Hend Halim: resembling Freddie Mercury. So it's
Hend Halim: something like that that keeps you.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I hate this word, role model. But being a great Egyptian
Joanne Lockwood: and being a fantastic Egyptian in the UK,
Joanne Lockwood: being yourself and smiling about that. Yeah,
Hend Halim: brilliant. Just to be proud of yourself. Yeah.
Hend Halim: Someone who making contributions to society or
Hend Halim: even educating people, because your words
Hend Halim: and the events I attend for you, they
Hend Halim: educate me. Something about trans people. They
Hend Halim: make me reflect when I go home about the
Hend Halim: ideas you share, the emotions, everything you
Hend Halim: say. And then I start educating other people.
Hend Halim: I attended an event with Joe. She said, so and
Hend Halim: so. What do you think about that? So you start engaging with
Hend Halim: others, spreading the word, spreading your positive
Hend Halim: ideas. Thank
Joanne Lockwood: you. I think that's a really great
Joanne Lockwood: outlook on life. To educate, to
Joanne Lockwood: learn, to share that and be really positive. That's a really
Joanne Lockwood: good mantra, because there's. No silver bullet
Hend Halim: to make everyone accept diversity
Hend Halim: and inclusion, love everyone and live
Hend Halim: peacefully. No.
Joanne Lockwood: If you had a magic wand or you had some vision, where
Joanne Lockwood: do you see the world going?
Joanne Lockwood: We're in the middle of July now. We've probably got another year, or at least
Joanne Lockwood: 18 months worth of COVID related
Joanne Lockwood: lockdown measures adjustment. So where do you see
Joanne Lockwood: the future? Do you see humanity getting better? Do we think we'll be able to
Joanne Lockwood: learn something from this? Yeah, a lot.
Hend Halim: I see more flexibility with employers
Hend Halim: because some Stone Age one were against
Hend Halim: people working from home or flexibility.
Hend Halim: Now that they are forced to do that, they found
Hend Halim: that you can be productive. You can trust your employees
Hend Halim: to deliver whatever is required from them. If they are
Hend Halim: working from home, they don't need to be chained to the desk
Hend Halim: to give that. I see some companies are
Hend Halim: promoting the four days week which can give more
Hend Halim: work life balance to do whatever
Hend Halim: you like, do your hobies, stay with your
Hend Halim: family, travel and so on. I
Hend Halim: see a better environment,
Hend Halim: there is less pollution, nobody's travelling, no
Hend Halim: carbon print. People are more conscious and
Hend Halim: appreciating of everything we used to have and
Hend Halim: we got deprived of. So there is more appreciation
Hend Halim: to everything. Do you think as a working mum,
Joanne Lockwood: it will be easier for you or harder for you? Because
Joanne Lockwood: everyone thinks it's easier. But there are other challenges of
Joanne Lockwood: working at home or remotely and having a
Joanne Lockwood: young family, aren't there? Yeah, definitely. It's
Hend Halim: very hard. But again, if
Hend Halim: you have support from your partner, it can make life
Hend Halim: easier because we cover each other.
Joanne Lockwood: So a more even balance between the gender roles at
Joanne Lockwood: home helps everybody win. Yeah,
Hend Halim: well, my husband has been living in Europe for like 15 years,
Hend Halim: so he's not very Egyptian.
Joanne Lockwood: Meaning traditional gender roles in
Joanne Lockwood: Egyptian society.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I understand that. The
Joanne Lockwood: Woman's role in Egyptian society or in Muslim society
Joanne Lockwood: is very traditional, isn't it? Very at home,
Joanne Lockwood: cooking, cleaning, childcare. The male
Joanne Lockwood: role is more working, providing,
Joanne Lockwood: fighting, the
Joanne Lockwood: strong outbound role, whereas the female tends to the
Joanne Lockwood: weaker home based role, isn't it? Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Although isn't Muslim society often very
Joanne Lockwood: matriarchal, where the woman does wield some
Joanne Lockwood: authority in the home, or is it very patriarchal still?
Hend Halim: No, it's more
Hend Halim: equal, but it's not for
Hend Halim: the public. The man has to be like the
Hend Halim: final decision maker. It's the woman
Hend Halim: who decides and designs and
Hend Halim: sets everything, but just for the
Hend Halim: image. It's not like Saudi, where
Joanne Lockwood: as a woman, you didn't need permission from a man to travel or leave the
Joanne Lockwood: country. No, not at all. And even driving, because my friends
Hend Halim: would always ask me, can you drive? So I said I had the car
Hend Halim: since I was 16.
Joanne Lockwood: In fact, probably earlier than the UK it is, and.
Hend Halim: Even in Egypt, because it's
Hend Halim: legally at the age of 18. But again, as I
Hend Halim: told you, speaking of privilege, sometimes you
Hend Halim: can do stuff and get away with it.
Hend Halim: I'm not so proud to say that, but that's the
Hend Halim: reality. So we got your naughty secret out in the end.
Joanne Lockwood: Well, it's been absolutely fantastic talking to you. You've got some great life
Joanne Lockwood: stories and you've overcome some
Joanne Lockwood: challenges in your life. You're living in several countries,
Joanne Lockwood: living in a country that's completely different, yet
Joanne Lockwood: still being firmly proud of your Egyptian
Joanne Lockwood: heritage is absolutely incredible. It's part of my identity.
Hend Halim: It's me. It is. And I think we talked about culture
Joanne Lockwood: versus humanity, and the humanity in you is shining through
Joanne Lockwood: and your hopes for the future evolving. The culture is.
Joanne Lockwood: I think we can all aspire to that as well. So how do people get
Joanne Lockwood: in touch with you if they want to book you to speak? I'm sure people
Joanne Lockwood: want to find out more about you. So what's the best place to get in
Joanne Lockwood: contact? My Linkedin. It's Hend
Hend Halim: Halim,
Hend Halim: and I'm happy
Hend Halim: to receive any messages. Okay, so connect with you on there, drop
Joanne Lockwood: you a message and have a chat. And if someone's looking for
Joanne Lockwood: speaker on anything you've heard about today, you'd be
Joanne Lockwood: really pleased to take part, wouldn't you? I can tell that, definitely.
Joanne Lockwood: So I wish you well in your job hunt. Maybe someone who listens to
Joanne Lockwood: this may listen to this and want to
Joanne Lockwood: offer you an opportunity coming from India, which will be amazing. But I'm sure
Joanne Lockwood: we'll keep in touch, and I'm sure once the lockdown is over, we'll bump into
Joanne Lockwood: each other at a CIPD or another event. It'd be great
Joanne Lockwood: to have a hug. I miss hugging. Yeah, me
Hend Halim: too.
Joanne Lockwood: So thank you so much. So if anybody would like
Joanne Lockwood: to take part in this podcast, then
Joanne Lockwood: please do get in contact. It's
Joanne Lockwood: jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. And it's a
Joanne Lockwood: huge thank you to everyone for being a listener to tuning in, and please
Joanne Lockwood: do subscribe to keep updated on future episodes of the Inclusion Bytes
Joanne Lockwood: podcast at Bites. Please tell your friends, please tell your
Joanne Lockwood: colleagues, because I've got a number of exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you'll
Joanne Lockwood: be inspired by over the next few weeks and months in addition to today's.
Joanne Lockwood: So please get in contact. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and it's been
Joanne Lockwood: an absolute pleasure to.