Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for
Joanne Lockwood: the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a
Joanne Lockwood: number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the
Joanne Lockwood: subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world
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Joanne Lockwood: Today is episode twelve with the title
Joanne Lockwood: finding your courage and voice to speak out. And I
Joanne Lockwood: have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Madeline Black.
Joanne Lockwood: I met Madeline at an advent annual convention. The professional
Joanne Lockwood: speakers in Coventry forward places. Madeline
Joanne Lockwood: describes herself as someone who speaks out against sexual
Joanne Lockwood: violence to end shame, stigma and the
Joanne Lockwood: silence, and to help others find their courage and voice,
Joanne Lockwood: too. I asked Madeline to describe her
Joanne Lockwood: superpower and she said her voice
Joanne Lockwood: and ability to speak out. So, hello,
Joanne Lockwood: Madeline. Welcome to the show. Hi, Jo. Thanks for having me
Madeline Black: on. Amazing. Thank you for joining
Joanne Lockwood: me. So, tell me, finding your courage and voice to speak out,
Joanne Lockwood: what does that mean to. You know, for years, it was my
Madeline Black: shame that silenced me. I was so ashamed of my history, my
Madeline Black: own story, that I just assumed if people knew that they wouldn't
Madeline Black: want to know me, they would be horrified. They would look at me
Madeline Black: differently. But finding my voice to speak out
Madeline Black: is really stepping into that shame and not really worrying now
Madeline Black: what their opinion will be of me and speaking out anyway.
Joanne Lockwood: Shame is. Yeah. I've listened to a lot of Brene Brown
Joanne Lockwood: talks, and she talks about difference between shame and
Joanne Lockwood: vulnerability and all these other aspects. And shame
Joanne Lockwood: can almost destroy people. Can't it really affect their mental
Joanne Lockwood: health? Absolutely. It really took away my
Madeline Black: voice, my ability to speak, and it silenced me for years. It took
Madeline Black: me 35 years to share my story publicly.
Madeline Black: A long time, really. Shame is just a horrible,
Madeline Black: horrible thing to hold on to.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I still talk to many people
Joanne Lockwood: who, for whatever reason, don't
Joanne Lockwood: feel able to speak their own truth. We talk about this, bring your whole self
Joanne Lockwood: to work, but there's still much of our personalities that we
Joanne Lockwood: just don't feel able to bring to work. And we're so
Joanne Lockwood: conscious about how people will see us negatively by sharing
Joanne Lockwood: this inner secret, don't we? Absolutely. The fear of being
Madeline Black: judged by others is huge. And actually, I'm a
Madeline Black: psychotherapist as well. So the judgement is often really what we do to
Madeline Black: ourselves. The judgement is really coming from us. But then,
Madeline Black: sadly, also with stories of sexual violence, we're not supported by
Madeline Black: society because we have so much victim blaming and rape culture that
Madeline Black: doesn't help women or men to come out and share their stories
Madeline Black: either. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: I see a lot of this and we still have these debates on the news
Joanne Lockwood: and the press about the rights
Joanne Lockwood: of often the woman,
Joanne Lockwood: not always the woman, but often the woman who is not
Joanne Lockwood: believed or there's doubt.
Joanne Lockwood: Her credibility or their credibility is often
Joanne Lockwood: questioned by the circumstance
Joanne Lockwood: of how that occurred. Rather than seeing them as a person, they're seeing
Joanne Lockwood: them as a person wearing certain
Joanne Lockwood: clothes or in certain situations and almost attributing the
Joanne Lockwood: blame onto putting themselves in danger. Absolutely.
Madeline Black: But lacey underwear, lacey thongs does not cause
Madeline Black: rape. 100% of all rapes are caused by rapists. Because we know
Madeline Black: that babies in nappies are raped, women and burkers are raped, boys are
Madeline Black: raped. It wasn't their clothing that caused the rape. At the end of the day,
Madeline Black: it was the rapists, the perpetrators, who made the choice. I was
Madeline Black: recently just been asked to be a patron of another organisation called
Madeline Black: justice is now an english organisation and they are working to
Madeline Black: campaign against rapeness being used within the criminal justice
Madeline Black: system. Because for that very reason the judge will say, well,
Madeline Black: you were wearing a lacy thong, whatever, what do you expect? And no, it's nothing
Madeline Black: to do with your clothing. So I'm really pleased to be part of that, but
Madeline Black: really sad that this is still going on, this rape culture, this
Madeline Black: victim blaming society that we live. In,
Joanne Lockwood: do you think this stems back from? I'm
Joanne Lockwood: thinking to bring it into context, all the midwife, that kind
Joanne Lockwood: of post war fifty s and sixty s where
Joanne Lockwood: people didn't really express themselves until rock and roll came along. People
Joanne Lockwood: generally dressed conservatively. Anybody who
Joanne Lockwood: dressed less typically, more flamboyantly,
Joanne Lockwood: was seen as somebody to be ashamed of,
Joanne Lockwood: had to be a good little boy or a good little girl and dress smartly.
Joanne Lockwood: And anybody who was maybe more flamboyant was seen as
Joanne Lockwood: something not to aspire to. And that bad things happen to those people. Do you
Joanne Lockwood: think it's rooted in that? It still comes down to judgments, doesn't it, at the
Madeline Black: end of the day, or this idea of how we have to conform and be
Madeline Black: a certain way. You can wear whatever you like. If you walk down the street
Madeline Black: naked, that's not an invitation to rape you. I don't know
Madeline Black: where it stems from. But sadly, it's not just been around since the
Madeline Black: 1950s. Rape, sexual abuse, sexual violence has been around
Madeline Black: for a long, long time. We have many, many
Madeline Black: changes that need to happen. So it
Joanne Lockwood: sounds to me that what you're saying and what I'm hearing is
Joanne Lockwood: that it's almost the rapist is trying to justify their
Joanne Lockwood: actions, almost like trying to depersonalise it. It wasn't me. It wasn't my
Joanne Lockwood: fault. I was made to by what they were
Joanne Lockwood: wearing. This is what they're trying to disassociate themselves with the act.
Madeline Black: Absolutely. And they're not taking any personal responsibility
Madeline Black: for something that they chose to do. I never invited
Madeline Black: to be gang raped at 13 or three more times before I was
Madeline Black: 18. I know now it was nothing to do with what I was wearing,
Madeline Black: drinking, smoking, where I was hanging out. It was down to the
Madeline Black: perpetrators of those events.
Joanne Lockwood: I think another part of it is language as well, because I'm very conscious about.
Joanne Lockwood: You weren't the victim you were the target of. So you're not
Joanne Lockwood: a victim, are you? You're the person it was done to. Guess, technically,
Madeline Black: legally, I am a victim of a crime. But I don't mind that word. It's
Madeline Black: okay, it doesn't impact on me because I guess victim also implies that you're
Madeline Black: weak. But, yeah, a crime was committed against my body, so I
Madeline Black: was a victim of a crime. But I also know now that I'm not my
Madeline Black: body, I'm not the things that these people did to me.
Madeline Black: And that took me a long time to work out as well. For years, like
Madeline Black: we said at the start, I was so ashamed. I felt so
Madeline Black: terrified of people finding out that they would just
Madeline Black: be disgusted because it left me feeling so
Madeline Black: worthless. I thought I was contaminated, that I could spread that
Madeline Black: on to someone else, even if by touching me. But I realise now that
Madeline Black: that's not true. But that took a lot of work, a long time, to find
Madeline Black: that out. But this is a combination of the
Joanne Lockwood: perpetrator disassociating themselves by pushing the
Joanne Lockwood: blame, the system itself, not
Joanne Lockwood: supporting you in a respectful way,
Joanne Lockwood: by trying to analyse whether you could have been the court. Did you invite this
Joanne Lockwood: by what you're wearing, behaving? So you're transferring all of this
Joanne Lockwood: responsibility, going, maybe it was me. Everyone's telling me it
Joanne Lockwood: could be me, maybe it wasn't. And that must be the hard thing to break
Joanne Lockwood: out of. Yeah. And I was also the first time, I was very young, I
Madeline Black: was only 13, it was the late 1970s. And I thought, well,
Madeline Black: we both lied about where we were staying. I had another girlfriend involved in the
Madeline Black: night and we'd met boys. We bought alcohol and we stayed in an
Madeline Black: empty flat. My friend's mum was away and we just thought we'd get into
Madeline Black: trouble. And also, they were very violent, the two young
Madeline Black: men who chose to rape me that night. And they threatened me. They told me
Madeline Black: that they would kill me if I spoke out. And after some of the things
Madeline Black: that he had done, I believed them. So that silenced me as well.
Madeline Black: For years, I was always looking over my shoulder, always worried that they
Madeline Black: would come back and find me. It must be
Joanne Lockwood: very frightening because it's a way of silencing you and taking
Joanne Lockwood: your power away again, isn't it? Absolutely. And I do believe it
Madeline Black: holds us back when we can't speak out. It just completely shut me
Madeline Black: down. And so much so, I guess it's almost like self harm
Madeline Black: in a way. I developed anorexia because what we don't speak about, it's got
Madeline Black: to come out somehow. It has to come out. I always think what
Madeline Black: we don't speak about leaks out of us. I developed an eating
Madeline Black: disorder. I became suicidal. I attempted suicide. Was in
Madeline Black: a children's psychiatric ward. I used drugs and alcohol,
Madeline Black: really, to numb out, to stop thinking and feeling. My
Madeline Black: family didn't know at the time, and Nick named me the ice maiden because I
Madeline Black: practically stopped speaking as well for about three years. So, yeah, I
Madeline Black: shut down. I guess I imploded rather than exploded.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's still happening in a different sort of way online
Joanne Lockwood: today, isn't. I mean, it doesn't have to be physical rape. I mean, okay,
Joanne Lockwood: rape is rape, and that's rape defined. But there are ways one could
Joanne Lockwood: be abused, thought made to
Joanne Lockwood: feel insecure online. And that's as powerful your
Joanne Lockwood: mental impact as a physical act, isn't it? Yeah. I look at all
Madeline Black: these female mps that get the
Madeline Black: most vile tweets sent out to them just from doing their
Madeline Black: job every day, wishing them dead, wishing them that they're going to be
Madeline Black: raped and swearing at them, and they don't deserve that. They're just going
Madeline Black: in to do their job. Whatever political side you believe in,
Madeline Black: they're not there to be a target for all of this hate, this online
Madeline Black: hate. Sometimes social media is brilliant, and sometimes
Madeline Black: it's just a vile place.
Joanne Lockwood: Oh, for sure. And as soon as
Joanne Lockwood: you lift the edge of the carpet up and look underneath,
Joanne Lockwood: there's a big success problem. I was on LinkedIn, I
Joanne Lockwood: think, the other day, and I think a mutual friend of ours James McKinty
Joanne Lockwood: posted something on LinkedIn about
Joanne Lockwood: how women, often women, mainly women,
Joanne Lockwood: are being chatted up or having inappropriate
Joanne Lockwood: comments made on the LinkedIn and other professional platforms.
Joanne Lockwood: And I've seen many of these posts in the
Joanne Lockwood: past. And when you read the voices of the women and
Joanne Lockwood: the people who've been the targets, they have a very similar
Joanne Lockwood: theme. And you
Joanne Lockwood: don't know how much stalking has gone on before that
Joanne Lockwood: post, how often that person has gone onto other profiles,
Joanne Lockwood: said the same things, and the debate was around,
Joanne Lockwood: should I, as a woman, should you as a woman
Joanne Lockwood: pull that out publicly? Should we? Just
Madeline Black: about a year ago, I had so many inappropriate messages sent to me. Dick
Madeline Black: photos, all sorts. It was horrific. And I thought LinkedIn is meant to be a
Madeline Black: professional platform. Now I deal with it very differently. I had one
Madeline Black: just the other day who wanted to get to know me better offline, and here's
Madeline Black: his WhatsApp number. So I told him that to f off. And I told
Madeline Black: him, this is a professional platform. Go and download
Madeline Black: Tinder and leave me alone. And I just blocked him. But I shared this
Madeline Black: story and I had about five or six different messages, inappropriate
Madeline Black: messages, and I can't tell you how many women
Madeline Black: contacted me and how many men as well, good, supportive men. And it
Madeline Black: was viewed about 125,000 times, this post. It was a couple
Madeline Black: of years ago, and so many people had the
Madeline Black: same story. And just because it's a professional platform, there's
Madeline Black: trolls everywhere, there's chances all over the place. It
Madeline Black: doesn't make any difference. I naively thought it might have done because it's supposed to
Madeline Black: be professional. But no, they're everywhere. They
Joanne Lockwood: are. And what surprised me
Joanne Lockwood: was some of the men
Joanne Lockwood: playing devil's advocate. They put it, they were playing devil's advocate, saying
Joanne Lockwood: it was unfair of a woman to publicly name and shame somebody
Joanne Lockwood: because isn't that reverse harassment? And I said,
Joanne Lockwood: why is that reverse harassment? You're saying I should have dealt with that privately?
Joanne Lockwood: I should have kept that secret, our dirty little secret, should I? And
Joanne Lockwood: suddenly I'm now the one to be blamed for saying, no,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not going to tolerate this. Had you not wanted me to call you out,
Joanne Lockwood: why did you send me the message? You weren't prepared to show that message to
Joanne Lockwood: your wife, your mother, your children? Why would you send it to me?
Madeline Black: Maybe it's time for me to do another post. I've got a few messages I've
Madeline Black: taken screenshots of before I told them where to go. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: it's quite right. We should always call it out. Always.
Joanne Lockwood: I've been chatted up on eBay. I remember advertising something for
Joanne Lockwood: sale and somebody who came second in the
Joanne Lockwood: biding messaged me after saying, if the first person drops out, I'd
Joanne Lockwood: be willing to step in. Please let me know. And I thought I just said,
Joanne Lockwood: thank you. No problem. About an hour later, I got another
Joanne Lockwood: message saying, forgive me for saying this, but I think you look
Joanne Lockwood: gorgeous. I'd love to take you out for. Are
Joanne Lockwood: you serious? Just ebay chat up. An eBay chat up? You
Joanne Lockwood: think, is there nowhere you can go
Joanne Lockwood: without being the target of this attention? And
Joanne Lockwood: it really is quite frightening, isn't it? Yeah, it is.
Madeline Black: There are chances everywhere, really. But I do
Madeline Black: believe in the good of people. On the whole, people are really good.
Madeline Black: And that is what I try to put my attention on and my focus at,
Madeline Black: because there was a time as well where it wasn't just my shame that
Madeline Black: silenced me, it was my fear. Fear was my
Madeline Black: best friend and we walked side by side for years and it really restricted
Madeline Black: my life. So I guess finding my courage
Madeline Black: was also facing all of my fears and finding my voice to speak
Madeline Black: out, because fear really crippled me for a long time.
Joanne Lockwood: Can you cast your mind back and remember, was there a triggering moment that
Joanne Lockwood: allowed you to step forward into courage? Was there
Joanne Lockwood: something that allowed you to unlock that? Was it a gradual process? I think it
Madeline Black: has been gradual. So I worked at Women's Aid for about 14 years, and I
Madeline Black: worked at rape crisis as a volunteer for about six years when I moved to
Madeline Black: Glasgow, Scotland. And I remember taking part in a
Madeline Black: campaign not that long before I found my voice publicly. And
Madeline Black: they were doing a campaign called this is not an invitation to rape
Madeline Black: me. And the journalist said, could he put up my photo and my name? Oh,
Madeline Black: no, that just felt too big. It just felt too huge.
Madeline Black: But when I was contacted by Marina from the forgiveness project,
Madeline Black: which is where I first shared my story publicly six years ago,
Madeline Black: actually, in September, she said, you can be anonymous. And at that
Madeline Black: point, I thought, I am tired of being ashamed
Madeline Black: for a crime committed against my body. So I
Madeline Black: think it has been a gradual process. And I had heard
Madeline Black: somebody else. We call ourselves stories from the forgiveness project. I had heard
Madeline Black: another story. She was going to prison to meet the
Madeline Black: serial rapist who had broken into her home while she was asleep and had
Madeline Black: raped her. Her two year old was asleep in the room next door and her
Madeline Black: husband was away in hospital. He only stopped because the knife broke. He
Madeline Black: would have killed her. And I just thought, you know, gosh, if she can sit
Madeline Black: opposite this man in prison for a three hour meeting. Then I am going to
Madeline Black: share my photo and my name. And it actually
Madeline Black: was the scariest thing I ever did, but the best thing I ever did.
Madeline Black: Because you can't eradicate shame
Madeline Black: by hiding in the shadows. You have to step into the shame to
Madeline Black: really go, well, fuck it, this is me. I don't
Madeline Black: care who knows anymore. This is who I am. And so
Madeline Black: stepping into the shame, doing the things that I would have run a million miles
Madeline Black: from years ago, that is what grew me. That is really what just
Madeline Black: shattered the shame completely. And ultimately then found my
Madeline Black: courage. That's so powerful. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: just listening to you there, thinking some of the words you used
Joanne Lockwood: there, it was about before you let
Joanne Lockwood: yourself find your courage. You were effectively living two lives. You
Joanne Lockwood: had the public Persona and your inner Persona, and you were
Joanne Lockwood: out of alignment. You had to double think. You had to sort of work out
Joanne Lockwood: who you were, what you could share, what you couldn't share.
Joanne Lockwood: I can't relate to your experience, per se, but I know what it's like to
Joanne Lockwood: have two voices, two heads, two thought processes, and that
Joanne Lockwood: power disalignment of being that one person in public going,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm proud of who I am. I'm not ashamed of who I am anymore. I
Joanne Lockwood: can shout and say everything I want to. I have no secret.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not keeping a secret for anybody anymore. You get
Joanne Lockwood: me? And that is a really empowering thing. And I listened to what you're saying
Joanne Lockwood: there, and I'm just.
Joanne Lockwood: My emotions. I guess
Madeline Black: people saw me. We're great at wearing masks. And I always
Madeline Black: feel like maybe I was a bit of a swan, that everything was fine and
Madeline Black: great, in control up above, but underneath, I'm paddling like crazy just to keep
Madeline Black: up. That's really how I think of how I lived those years. And it was
Madeline Black: fake. I had this fake smile on my face. I wanted to be the perfect
Madeline Black: mum, partner, homemaker. But, yeah, underneath it,
Madeline Black: I was terrified of people finding out. And now lifting that
Madeline Black: is like. It's so freeing. It's like, brilliant. Now I don't need to hide
Madeline Black: anymore. And a lot of my friends, some of them that did know, they
Madeline Black: didn't know all the details, and they didn't know that it was near fatal. They
Madeline Black: didn't know the level of violence. So putting that out
Madeline Black: there, it just really cuts
Madeline Black: all the chains that really tied me down and stopped me from
Madeline Black: growing. It's much more freeing from this side to really
Madeline Black: just say, this is me. This is everything that you need to know.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I'm almost welling up here. This is really powerful.
Joanne Lockwood: When I talk to people, when talking about DNI, in
Joanne Lockwood: corporates, in diversity, inclusion, belonging, we always talk. One of the
Joanne Lockwood: powerful ways of doing this is through storytelling.
Joanne Lockwood: I may not be able to have your exact experience, but if I can build
Joanne Lockwood: this empathy bridge, if I can start to relate somehow to your
Joanne Lockwood: lived experience, then I'm going to be able to
Joanne Lockwood: encompass what you're saying into my sense of well being and my sense of psyche
Joanne Lockwood: myself. And it's not. So I feel sympathy for you, so I
Joanne Lockwood: feel empathy from you and I build strength from your strength. And I
Joanne Lockwood: think by telling your story. And I really am not a fan of the word
Joanne Lockwood: role model or the term role model, but we have to recognise that
Joanne Lockwood: people do look to people for inspiration. If they can, I
Joanne Lockwood: can. They've made it. I can make it. And that's the relatable
Joanne Lockwood: experience.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm sure you hate being called brave. It's
Joanne Lockwood: a title awarded rather than a feeling you necessarily have. Bravery is
Joanne Lockwood: hindsight at the time, you're just doing what you do.
Joanne Lockwood: But, yeah, I'm sure you've given a lot of people, you've passed the
Joanne Lockwood: courage on, if you like. Yeah, it is an interesting word, brave, because I don't
Madeline Black: want to be considered brave. I'd like it to be normal that we can all
Madeline Black: speak out and be okay with who we are and be
Madeline Black: accepted. But I realise a lot of that journey was a personal journey. I
Madeline Black: had to be okay with who I was, and I had to accept myself. And
Madeline Black: I can't undo what happened to me. But it's kind of
Madeline Black: a paradox, because in some ways it's clearly shaped my life, but in other
Madeline Black: ways, it's not who I am as well. The real essence of who
Madeline Black: we're all born with, that fire in our belly, whatever we are, whatever
Madeline Black: our experience is, nothing can change that. And that's what I really believe.
Madeline Black: But like you, I do believe in the power of sharing
Madeline Black: stories. And Marina, who is the founder of the forgiveness project, she has
Madeline Black: this beautiful expression. She doesn't call us storytellers, she calls us
Madeline Black: story healers. And I've just felt that healing power of
Madeline Black: sharing my story. Whether someone's been raped or not, there's
Madeline Black: always something that we can resonate with someone else. I've just felt it so many
Madeline Black: times. And that what really inspires me to
Madeline Black: carry on speaking out, it motivates me just to. Not for me
Madeline Black: anymore, but what it can do for other people now, to unlock their own
Madeline Black: potential, find their own voice and share their stories,
Madeline Black: speak out. Do you find
Joanne Lockwood: sometimes that your story
Joanne Lockwood: is you? You are your story. And sometimes it would just be nice to be
Joanne Lockwood: Madeline for a while. Just be Madeline, just be
Joanne Lockwood: recognised as a psychologist or wherever you
Joanne Lockwood: are, rather than being. I don't want to be
Joanne Lockwood: either the engine Jones esteem anymore, or Joe the trans person. I just want to
Joanne Lockwood: be Joe the lockwood, Joe the person, Joe the trainer.
Madeline Black: Get that? But I realised my story had the power to help other people.
Madeline Black: So when I think back,
Madeline Black: it doesn't feel like me anymore. That person that I speak about.
Madeline Black: I've done a tonne load of therapy, a tonne load
Madeline Black: of speaking therapies, body therapy. I feel
Madeline Black: so healed. And in fact it's actually grown me now. I think
Madeline Black: there's post traumatic growth rather than post traumatic stress disorder. I think
Madeline Black: I've grown from my experience, so I'm okay with
Madeline Black: that. It's fine. People, you can't stop how people see you. They're going to
Madeline Black: see you however they want to. But as long as I'm okay with who I
Madeline Black: am, I think now that's taken me to this grand old age to get
Madeline Black: that. But that's really all that matters.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I'm just reading back on your superpower.
Joanne Lockwood: It's your voice and ability to speak out. So your lived experience
Joanne Lockwood: has given you this superpower and through this
Joanne Lockwood: superpower, your purpose and mission in life, if you like. And it's something you're
Joanne Lockwood: now rising to and using. I talk about
Joanne Lockwood: privilege as being something you shouldn't be ashamed of. It's how you wield it.
Joanne Lockwood: And you're using your privilege of strength and character
Joanne Lockwood: and wielding that for the good of society. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, like
Madeline Black: I say, I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but I wouldn't undo it now because
Madeline Black: it really has taught me a lot. I mean, it's shown me,
Madeline Black: and I can see it in everybody else, that we're all so much stronger than
Madeline Black: we think we are. And really okay. I needed a lot of support to
Madeline Black: get past a lot of the issues that I had. I lived with PTSD for
Madeline Black: years and wasn't even aware. So many fears, phobias,
Madeline Black: anxieties. But at the end of the day, once I had worked it and
Madeline Black: worked it and worked it, I saw that I had a choice and I could
Madeline Black: choose to stay in my past or I
Madeline Black: could choose to grow from it. And that's what I chose to. So we all
Madeline Black: have a choice and we can get past anything that happens to us, we
Madeline Black: really can. So you did a
Joanne Lockwood: TEDx, if I remember rightly, I did, yeah. Glasgow,
Joanne Lockwood: was it? 2000 people in a big theatre somewhere, was it? Yeah. I don't know
Madeline Black: if I'll ever be doing that again. It was
Madeline Black: 2100 or something like that. So again, it
Madeline Black: was one of the most terrifying moments of my life. Even though I had
Madeline Black: spoken on stages before, it really was pretty intense,
Madeline Black: because Glasgow, I didn't know. I know now, is one of the top ten ones
Madeline Black: in Europe, so it's a really hard one to get into, so I felt really
Madeline Black: proud that I got into that one, but they weren't sure about
Madeline Black: my story to start with, and then they were obviously really behind me. But
Madeline Black: once I walked out onto the stage and I stood on that red dot, I
Madeline Black: just thought, it's not about me speaking now, it's about who's listening, and
Madeline Black: that just centres me and grounds me, and it gave me the
Madeline Black: strength to share my story. And
Madeline Black: even if I just help one person, I think, well, that's my job done. And
Madeline Black: straight afterwards, I was contacted by a head teacher who I've now had a lot
Madeline Black: of contact with, and one young woman in the audience that was with
Madeline Black: the school party started to cry after she heard me.
Madeline Black: She got very triggered. And cut a long story short, she had been raped
Madeline Black: by her uncle three years prior. I've now met the young woman who is
Madeline Black: extraordinary, she's fabulous, and she said she would never have spoken out,
Madeline Black: but she saw me standing there with no shame and being proud of
Madeline Black: her past and she said it gave her hope. And I think, well, that's
Madeline Black: it, that's my job done. I was just there for you that day. But, yeah,
Madeline Black: a lot of people do still contact me after my ted. So, yeah, I'm
Madeline Black: grateful that I had that platform. It was brilliant to have a
Madeline Black: TEDx. Yeah, I haven't done it yet.
Joanne Lockwood: Maybe one day I've just got to find my why. But you found your why
Joanne Lockwood: and your message of passion. But you're so right.
Joanne Lockwood: It's the small things. You bump into people, maybe you're at a
Joanne Lockwood: conference, maybe you're in a different scenario and someone come up to you and say,
Joanne Lockwood: can I have a quick word? And they say, I saw you this, or I
Joanne Lockwood: saw that, I watched this, I saw your YouTube, I heard you speak. And
Joanne Lockwood: just to let you know, in my particular case, my daughter's trans
Joanne Lockwood: or my husband come out and by listening to you has given me
Joanne Lockwood: some hope. And you think, wow, that's that one person that you
Joanne Lockwood: wanted to change the life of, and these people
Joanne Lockwood: find you and they put effort into seeking you out to tell you their
Joanne Lockwood: story. I'm almost in tears. I'm sure you
Joanne Lockwood: are. When you hear people's stories as well, that it's such an incredible feeling to
Joanne Lockwood: know you have made that difference to one person, isn't it? It's amazing.
Madeline Black: One of my best examples. I've been interviewed by fabulous people, obviously,
Madeline Black: yourself included, but I was interviewed by Sir Trevor McDonald, which is a hard
Madeline Black: one to beat, I know, for BBC Radio Four. And to cut a long
Madeline Black: story short, once the programme had been aired, it was
Madeline Black: the most amazing thing. My friend Sandra, who works for the
Madeline Black: forgiveness project, told me her mum had been listening. And to cut a very long
Madeline Black: story short, that day she ended 64 years of her
Madeline Black: silence when she told her daughter that she had been raped too, as a teenager.
Madeline Black: And she had never told anyone up until that moment. She said it's
Madeline Black: because she heard a woman on the radio who understood how it was, that
Madeline Black: she felt guilty and ashamed and thought it was her fault. And I had made
Madeline Black: her realise that it was never her fault. She had nothing to be ashamed about.
Madeline Black: It was down to the perpetrator. And she found her voice that
Madeline Black: day. And I believe that courage is
Madeline Black: contagious. It was somebody else speaking out that helped me find
Madeline Black: my voice and I just really intend to use my voice. I just feel like
Madeline Black: I'm a vehicle or a vessel for helping other
Madeline Black: people find their courage and their voice. And that, to me, every
Madeline Black: time I speak, I think of my friend's mum. Because there's so many people
Madeline Black: that have just put themselves into their
Madeline Black: own prison of silence that can't speak out
Madeline Black: because of their ashamed or they're fearful or they're worried
Madeline Black: about being judged. And she broke out of that. And my friend
Madeline Black: said there's every chance she would have taken that story to the grave and she'd
Madeline Black: have never known about it. And that breaks my heart, that
Madeline Black: really does, yeah. And that's the why,
Joanne Lockwood: isn't it? That's the why, absolutely. That is my why.
Joanne Lockwood: I often tell this story. It's about one person alone.
Joanne Lockwood: When they speak out is often called a snowflake. They fall
Joanne Lockwood: to the ground, they're insignificant. They melt when they hit the
Joanne Lockwood: tarmac. But you put a billion people with voices
Joanne Lockwood: together, they become an avalanche. An avalanche has power. An avalanche
Joanne Lockwood: can move mountains. An avalanche can cut through
Joanne Lockwood: and be heard and be reckoned with. So we all need
Joanne Lockwood: to come together with our voices. And not melt as a single
Joanne Lockwood: snowflake. Become that avalanche. Starts with a single snowflake, really, though,
Madeline Black: doesn't it? We just have to gather them on. Come together. Yeah,
Madeline Black: absolutely. Come together and start with being a
Joanne Lockwood: snowball. Start with being a bigger snowball and get the
Joanne Lockwood: momentum. It's just like that because the ripple
Madeline Black: effect of me speaking out. One friend now has started a blog
Madeline Black: and she's now inspired other people to speak out. And it's the ripples of
Madeline Black: where it goes, and we never know where it goes as well. Sometimes it's years
Madeline Black: later, someone can sit. So yesterday, actually, I was out hill
Madeline Black: walking with some friends, which we started to do since lockdown, and we met
Madeline Black: a couple of young girls that were like, my kids age. They were like 25
Madeline Black: and 27. And one of them found me on Instagram because I put a post
Madeline Black: up about this knock hill summit we climbed. And she said, I know
Madeline Black: you. I didn't realise I had my hair pulled back and no makeup on. Yesterday
Madeline Black: she said, I've been following you on Instagram for years and I've read your book.
Madeline Black: And this happened to me, too. I didn't realise when I was chatting to you,
Madeline Black: that was you, and she said, I watched this podcast with you and she was
Madeline Black: just like, yeah, she suddenly could tell me
Madeline Black: because she knew my story and she went into her details with me just
Madeline Black: this morning on Instagram. So, yeah, it's interesting.
Madeline Black: It really is. That's really powerful of love, isn't it? Because
Joanne Lockwood: people often know so much about you by reading your books and your TEDx. They've
Joanne Lockwood: listened to your interviews and things. And when you meet people, they've got so
Joanne Lockwood: much warmth for you because they feel like they know you really well. And
Joanne Lockwood: it's kind of a strange feeling sometimes that someone knows you that well and you
Joanne Lockwood: don't know them. Yeah, I'm used to it. But I do, obviously, write
Madeline Black: about my husband and my kids in my book. So Stephen gets quite
Madeline Black: awkward. Oh, Stephen, I want to just give you a big hug. You've just, what
Madeline Black: a guy. And you supported her all this time, and he's like, oh, okay.
Madeline Black: Or some of the reviews on Amazon they'll mention do.
Madeline Black: I used to say that I thought he was an angel sent to save me,
Madeline Black: because at the point in my life when I met him, I was really on
Madeline Black: a path of self destruct. And I often wonder if I hadn't met him
Madeline Black: at that point where it would have gone, I would have gone on to harder
Madeline Black: drugs or something else. My self respect, my self
Madeline Black: esteem. My self confidence was really bad. But,
Madeline Black: yes, people get very excited when they meet him and he's like,
Madeline Black: he can't cope. But, yeah, it's cute.
Joanne Lockwood: So we're topically end of
Joanne Lockwood: July and 2020 here, as we're having this conversation, and I
Joanne Lockwood: think we'd have to be living in a cave if we didn't realise that Covid-19
Joanne Lockwood: was around us. And the world changed
Joanne Lockwood: significantly in March for most people. And I think we're
Joanne Lockwood: both aware that it's having a significant impact on
Joanne Lockwood: people who are in a home environment, living in a toxic environment.
Joanne Lockwood: Domestic violence, domestic abuse, not just
Joanne Lockwood: women, but also when we think about lgbt people living in an environment that's not
Joanne Lockwood: safe for them, it's a big challenge. Are you hearing
Joanne Lockwood: stories now from people? I'm also a patron for
Madeline Black: a scottish organisation called say women, and we support young women that have been
Madeline Black: sexually abused and are facing homelessness because it's no longer safe
Madeline Black: to stay at home. So Pam, the CEO and myself spoke very
Madeline Black: early on on the radio because they were launching a grant
Madeline Black: scheme to get some more money to add extra services to the service they
Madeline Black: already provide. And within the first three weeks of lockdown, 16
Madeline Black: women, 14 women and two young girls were murdered at the hands of their
Madeline Black: partner. So I think, for anyone, life was tough before. It just
Madeline Black: got a whole lot tougher. I think when we're out
Madeline Black: of lockdown completely, I'm in Scotland, so we're kind of a little bit behind
Madeline Black: England. The calls to the national abuse helpline
Madeline Black: to rape crisis. The need for refuge is just going to go up.
Madeline Black: It's just going to be. Yeah. For a lot of people, home is not a
Madeline Black: safe place. It really isn't. And I'm grateful. I had
Madeline Black: moaned a bit because I had my house suddenly busy again. I realised I got
Madeline Black: used to my peace and quiet. I quite liked it. Suddenly had a husband,
Madeline Black: home and two kids. But actually, now I'm really grateful for this time. It's
Madeline Black: brilliant. But, yeah, I have to recognise, we have to see that for
Madeline Black: home, a lot of people, it's not a good place, it's tough. It's
Madeline Black: really tough out there. Yeah. And it does worry
Joanne Lockwood: me sometimes when you listen to the corporate voice, if you like, saying,
Joanne Lockwood: oh, this new way of working is going to be great for our company.
Joanne Lockwood: We'll have people working from home, working remotely. People love it.
Joanne Lockwood: We get so much good feedback. But I think when we go back to this
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, belonging sort of focus, that sometimes we're not hearing all the
Joanne Lockwood: voices, or we're not putting those voices into enough context,
Joanne Lockwood: amplify them to make sure those concerns are listened
Joanne Lockwood: to and addressed. Things. I
Madeline Black: have a friend who teaches it, and she said most of her
Madeline Black: students don't have access to the wifi. They're maybe refugees. They don't have a
Madeline Black: laptop. They don't have the need to do the class
Madeline Black: at home. She spends all this time preparing lessons. Normally have 30 people in
Madeline Black: person. She might have one or two that turn up. So it's
Madeline Black: hard for her and it's really hard for them. And she said she's heard all
Madeline Black: their back stories. They all have struggles and their priorities
Madeline Black: now are undercut after their family or their brothers and sisters.
Madeline Black: And it's not easy. It's a lot of challenges,
Madeline Black: whatever this is bringing. And it's also hard for people
Madeline Black: with their mental health because everything's uncertain. And we like to
Madeline Black: think we're in control, but we have to get okay
Madeline Black: with not knowing, and that's really tough for people. We don't know how this is
Madeline Black: going to look, when it's going to end, if it will ever end. Maybe we'll
Madeline Black: always be impacted on this in some way.
Joanne Lockwood: But going back to the title of the show, finding courage and the voice to
Joanne Lockwood: speak out, it's really important that we
Joanne Lockwood: create permission
Joanne Lockwood: or allowing people to have that voice, because if we
Joanne Lockwood: don't hear them, their voice will be buried.
Joanne Lockwood: And what worries me is because the way the employment
Joanne Lockwood: market, the, the way, way the jobs are at the moment, a lot of people
Joanne Lockwood: have been made redundant. A lot of businesses are closing, a lot of airlines, entertainment
Joanne Lockwood: events, all shutting down. So maybe people are going to put up with
Joanne Lockwood: more because of they're worried about their job.
Joanne Lockwood: They're more like to suffer part with an employer
Joanne Lockwood: not treating them fairly because they know that there's no job. So
Joanne Lockwood: that person's going to be loyal. So it does take a lot of privilege and
Joanne Lockwood: courage to be able to stand up for yourself, knowing
Joanne Lockwood: full well that could impact your employment status.
Madeline Black: Absolutely. Because I can't imagine right now if you lose your job, it's a good
Madeline Black: time to find another job. It must be really worrying for people just thinking,
Madeline Black: well, I just put up with it because it's better the devil you know, really,
Madeline Black: isn't it? So, yeah, it's finding a balance, really, isn't it?
Joanne Lockwood: And the workplace was your source of refuge often, wasn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? You had ally support, friends, and for.
Madeline Black: Kids as well, for a lot of children that were forced to stay at
Madeline Black: home, that are getting abused or neglected at home or they only got their one
Madeline Black: cooked meal when they were at school. It's been tough on children as
Madeline Black: well. It's a really tough time.
Joanne Lockwood: Is there an answer?
Joanne Lockwood: There's no magic wand here. Can you think of
Joanne Lockwood: anything that employers could start doing? How do they engage
Joanne Lockwood: with their teams and their staff? I guess that really depends on what the
Madeline Black: employer is like to start with. If an employee with
Madeline Black: heart and they care about their employees, then, yeah, you
Madeline Black: lucked out. If it's someone that just wants you to produce the number
Madeline Black: crunches or get the figures up, whatever, and doesn't really care about you,
Madeline Black: yeah, it depends if there's heart in your organisation or not.
Joanne Lockwood: It's the pulse, it's the corporate values and culture, isn't it? That's the
Joanne Lockwood: influence. Absolutely. And if those aren't there to start with, then it's
Madeline Black: going to be tough. It's going to be really tough.
Joanne Lockwood: Do you think we'll come out of this in a year, six months? Are you
Joanne Lockwood: seeing this as a kind of forever thing now? You know what I think of,
Madeline Black: like, 911? I mean, my youngest one is going to be 19 next
Madeline Black: week. And I said, you know, it used to be a time, Leila, where we
Madeline Black: never used to take our toiletries in little plastic bags. I used to have a
Madeline Black: great big carry on toiletry box filled to the brim of
Madeline Black: 100, 500 mils, whatever. Really? I've always known
Madeline Black: plastic bags. Could you take bottles? So, in some way, I
Madeline Black: wonder if we'll always have to have our temperature taken if we go to a
Madeline Black: restaurant or always have to leave our details, or there's going to be something
Madeline Black: that will just become normal, because now you don't even question it. You buy your
Madeline Black: little bottles, you fill them up, you put them in your plastic bag, you fly,
Madeline Black: whatever. Not that we're doing much flying at the moment, but I wonder
Madeline Black: if it's always going to impact on us in some way. But,
Madeline Black: yeah, it's a bit surreal at times. It's like
Madeline Black: living in a science fiction movie. It really is. When we look back,
Madeline Black: I often think. It'S a bit like the. It's like the Will Smith movie, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? The zombies and everything. We look out the window, there are no
Joanne Lockwood: zombies. It's like the same thing, but
Joanne Lockwood: there's nothing visible to hang this
Joanne Lockwood: crisis on, this invisible virus. But
Madeline Black: I think it shows. I mean, in the beginning, for me, the environment was
Madeline Black: intense and I'm meant to be a motivational speaker and I really
Madeline Black: struggled. I thought I gave up working as a
Madeline Black: psychotherapist. I'm going to put my energy into speaking and I did not feel
Madeline Black: motivated at all. I was really struggling and
Madeline Black: I think that collective energy was hard as well because I think I had my
Madeline Black: own stuff. And then you feed into the collective fear out there in the
Madeline Black: community and collective anxieties. And I had a lot
Madeline Black: of people messaging me about their anxieties, people with unprocessed
Madeline Black: trauma that was getting triggered and new memories resurfacing.
Madeline Black: But I think now, I don't know if I speak just for me, but I
Madeline Black: feel like we've got used to it now and we're adapting
Madeline Black: and we've got used to this change. Not saying that we like it, but just
Madeline Black: shows you that we are adaptable. And yes, that was the initial trauma
Madeline Black: when it first came in, but we have grown into it and we're
Madeline Black: getting used to it. Doesn't mean that I particularly like online working. I have
Madeline Black: to be honest, I much prefer a live audience and people,
Madeline Black: but it has its points as well. I can wear my tracky bottoms and my
Madeline Black: slippers and nobody needs to know, just pop down from my
Madeline Black: room upstairs. It has advantages as well, but I think it
Madeline Black: might impact us, on us for a long time to come.
Joanne Lockwood: I think you're right, definitely think you're right. And
Joanne Lockwood: I think just the change of attitude we're now having
Joanne Lockwood: towards interactions with each other, our
Joanne Lockwood: default position is almost of mistrust for people around us rather than
Joanne Lockwood: where we were before, maybe trusting or not even
Joanne Lockwood: considering our personal space. What do you mean by that? By mistrust?
Joanne Lockwood: Well, if someone's not wearing a mask,
Joanne Lockwood: worried about them, if someone's invading our personal space,
Joanne Lockwood: we're now thinking, well, I've got elderly parents. If I mix with people, if I
Joanne Lockwood: get on a train, am I worried about my surfaces? Am I worried about pittings
Joanne Lockwood: around me? So we're kind of starting to mistrust and feel insecure, I think.
Madeline Black: We're living in Scotland, we all wear our masks. I mean, it was mandatory
Madeline Black: before England and we all kind of socially distanced to a whole, but, yeah, no,
Madeline Black: I understand. Sadly, my mum has been diagnosed with cancer
Madeline Black: again after ten years and so I'm really worried, as we're
Madeline Black: opening up, I don't want to spend too much time with other people because
Madeline Black: then Sheena has to be shielded again if she goes through radiotherapy.
Madeline Black: I understand what you mean and I think we're all going to become germaphobes.
Madeline Black: We're going to become so obsessed my hands have never been so clean the
Madeline Black: amount of gel that we go.
Joanne Lockwood: The early march, I was in Newcastle on a Monday,
Joanne Lockwood: then I flew to Amsterdam for three days and by the time I got back
Joanne Lockwood: on Friday the 13th, the world changed mid flight. I didn't get
Joanne Lockwood: the memo or something. No one had told me that by the time I got
Joanne Lockwood: back, everything was different. And I remember coming back on the
Joanne Lockwood: train and phoned my wife up and said, look, I'm coming
Joanne Lockwood: home. I've got notified that I may have been in contact with someone who may
Joanne Lockwood: have been in contact with someone on the virgin train on the way to Newcastle.
Joanne Lockwood: This is the early stages of track trade before it was official and
Joanne Lockwood: we had to have this conversation about, should I come? So if I
Joanne Lockwood: come home, I've now bought anything I have with me having spent three
Joanne Lockwood: days in the aeroplanes and conferences and things, I'm now potentially
Joanne Lockwood: bringing something back into the home. So I almost felt
Joanne Lockwood: like we had to negotiate permission for me to come back. And
Joanne Lockwood: how is that going to impact my wife? How is that going to impact those
Joanne Lockwood: around me? How would that impact her ability to look after her parents
Joanne Lockwood: around my elderly parent? So suddenly it's not just about me,
Joanne Lockwood: it's about my impact on others. And I went to London to
Joanne Lockwood: have my hair done and do a few other things two weeks ago and I'm
Joanne Lockwood: thinking as I'm coming back, I've been on the underground, I've been on a train,
Joanne Lockwood: I've been here, I've been there,
Joanne Lockwood: okay, with a mask on. But
Joanne Lockwood: now I've now brought an environment back with me
Joanne Lockwood: that wasn't in our household before. So what's my impact on our family
Joanne Lockwood: unit? But it's hard. Do you want to just hide away
Madeline Black: completely or do you want to get back to some kind of normality as well?
Madeline Black: And I guess we're going to have to risk being exposed to it at some
Madeline Black: point. Yeah, it's very hard. So in the very beginning, we
Madeline Black: had a lot of families in my own immediate family that was
Madeline Black: affected by it. My aunt died of COVID my brother in
Madeline Black: law has myeloma, which means that he had only just had a
Madeline Black: second stem cell transplant. So he's not allowed out at all. He's not been
Madeline Black: out for about three months and he's just been allowed out to go walking
Madeline Black: now. I think at the end of July, he can still go out now, but
Madeline Black: then he'll still have to shield. He'll still have to be two metres apart from
Madeline Black: everyone, which he might have to stay like that until he gets a vaccine. So
Madeline Black: my two, lots of our parents are both in their eighty s. One set
Madeline Black: is better behaved than the other set. But we were cooking and looking
Madeline Black: after all these people, not cooking, doing all their shopping. So
Madeline Black: it's really tough. And then I'm thinking, well, I'm going to the supermarket. I've touched
Madeline Black: something, I could potentially bring it to them. And we were trying to protect them,
Madeline Black: but we could drive ourselves crazy, really, couldn't we? Yeah. We
Joanne Lockwood: double think about everything, don't we? Yeah. We went to the cinema a
Joanne Lockwood: couple of weeks ago and
Joanne Lockwood: I forget what we went to see now, but what we went to see. And
Joanne Lockwood: there was about five people in the entire cinema. Yeah, it doesn't appeal to
Madeline Black: me right now. No, it was an empty experience.
Joanne Lockwood: All these things that were familiar, like going shopping, when you go
Joanne Lockwood: shopping, it's not a nice, comfortable experience.
Joanne Lockwood: So all of that, all those brain chemicals that we got pleasure from by
Joanne Lockwood: doing these things, spending money, enjoying ourselves,
Joanne Lockwood: trying on a new dress, buying something nice to wear.
Joanne Lockwood: Where are we going to wear that nice thing? We're not going to go party,
Joanne Lockwood: we're not going to the pub. So you go to the shop. I was holding
Joanne Lockwood: this dress up thinking, I love this dress. I thought, I'm never going to wear
Joanne Lockwood: it, not this year. There's no point buying it. Tracky bottoms
Joanne Lockwood: and some slippers would be nice. Well, my first trip out
Madeline Black: was to Tiso, which is an outdoor shop, and I bought some walking boots. That
Madeline Black: was really exciting. And some waterproof trousers because I'm doing more hill walking
Madeline Black: and walking outside than ever before. But it was so exciting to go and
Madeline Black: buy something and I needed a new rucksack and I got some
Madeline Black: plasters for my blisters and it was like, yeah, this is really exciting to go.
Madeline Black: That was the first time I'd been in a shop for about four months, other
Madeline Black: than a supermarket or a pharmacy, and spent some money. But
Madeline Black: yeah, to go shopping there doesn't really appeal to me. But it was
Madeline Black: like quick in, try my boots on and then get out as quickly as possible.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I'm spending most of my money these days on
Joanne Lockwood: gadgets and technical and remote speaking stuff and
Joanne Lockwood: podcasting and mics and things. That's my fix
Joanne Lockwood: because I'm actually using them and buying lots of
Joanne Lockwood: tops and no bottoms because, as you
Joanne Lockwood: say, just trackies and stretchy pants are fine. No
Madeline Black: slippers. Every time you stand up you think, oops, sorry, I just
Joanne Lockwood: hide away from the camera, just shuffle away.
Joanne Lockwood: So you wrote your book. Was that before or after the TEDx?
Madeline Black: That was a little while ago now. So unbroken has been out since
Madeline Black: April 2017. So I wrote it like a year or two before, but the
Madeline Black: publishing process takes a while, so I was very lucky.
Madeline Black: Just before lockdown, it had been recorded, so it's now
Madeline Black: available on audible. And in January
Madeline Black: next year, 2021, I'm going to be translated into Italian. So
Madeline Black: it's amazing because it's like three, three and a half years old, we nearly four
Madeline Black: years old, and that I can still get all these other
Madeline Black: options to happen. But, yeah,
Madeline Black: unsadly my story is not uncommon. It's a
Madeline Black: story of many, many people. And it's, I guess, the kind of book that will
Madeline Black: never go out of fashion. Because every day,
Madeline Black: somewhere on our planet, a man, a woman, a child will be raped or
Madeline Black: abused.
Joanne Lockwood: That's a heavy sentence to hang on, isn't it? It is,
Madeline Black: but it's the truth.
Joanne Lockwood: So what's your optimistic view of the future?
Joanne Lockwood: How's the world going to change for the better? Or are you still
Joanne Lockwood: pessimistic about the future? You know what? I never really intended
Madeline Black: to be a speaker. I always call myself an accidental speaker. But I
Madeline Black: realised that my voice really is my power that will help other
Madeline Black: people. And I've always just gone with the flow. I did have a
Madeline Black: tantrum about remote speaking in the beginning, I have to be honest. But I've now
Madeline Black: delivered a couple of keynotes at some online
Madeline Black: network events or conferences. And it was okay. It was actually
Madeline Black: really good. It wasn't as bad as I thought. So there is that
Madeline Black: future. But I'm still very happy to just go with the flow
Madeline Black: and just see what comes to me. I've been
Madeline Black: lucky. I choose to speak. I don't need to speak
Madeline Black: to support myself. I have another source of income.
Madeline Black: I look after some properties for my mum so that I
Madeline Black: find secure financially from that point of view. But I
Madeline Black: speak because it comes from my heart. And so I will always find a way
Madeline Black: to speak out, share my story, to help other people find their
Madeline Black: voice and their courage.
Madeline Black: Fantastic. So how can people get hold of you if they want to make
Joanne Lockwood: contact? What's the best way for them to find you? Well, I have a website,
Madeline Black: madelineblack.co.uk, and I am on all
Madeline Black: the social media platforms apart from TikTok. I can't really get to
Madeline Black: TikTok. No, I've not sourced that one
Joanne Lockwood: twitch. I haven't sauced either of those two.
Joanne Lockwood: Awesome. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: sure to everyone who's listening today, that there's so much there to take
Joanne Lockwood: inspiration from, to take courage
Joanne Lockwood: from as well. So a huge thank you
Joanne Lockwood: for your time today, for sharing your story again, and
Joanne Lockwood: also to the listener out there who's tuned in and got
Joanne Lockwood: this far, thank you very much. I'd ask you to keep
Joanne Lockwood: subscribing to this podcast and to future episodes of
Joanne Lockwood: the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's bit yes. Tell your friends
Joanne Lockwood: and colleagues, because I'm sure they would love to share this story as
Joanne Lockwood: well. I have a number of other exciting guests. You
Joanne Lockwood: think Madeline's powerful? I mean, I've got some other powerful storytellers and
Joanne Lockwood: speakers lined up as well that you'll definitely be inspired by over the next few
Joanne Lockwood: weeks and months. And if you are one of those people that has a
Joanne Lockwood: story and would like to be a guest and to share with the listeners,
Joanne Lockwood: then please let me know. And as usual, I'd welcome your feedback
Joanne Lockwood: suggestions to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Joanne Lockwood: how we can improve the show or other topics we can cover.
Joanne Lockwood: So my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been an absolute pleasure to be your host
Joanne Lockwood: for this podcast today.