WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.410 --> 00:00:04.126 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for 2 00:00:04.148 --> 00:00:07.886 the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a 3 00:00:07.908 --> 00:00:11.598 number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the 4 00:00:11.604 --> 00:00:15.262 subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world 5 00:00:15.316 --> 00:00:19.146 a better place for everyone to thrive in. If you'd like to join 6 00:00:19.178 --> 00:00:21.406 me in the future, then please do drop me a line to 7 00:00:21.428 --> 00:00:25.042 jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk That's. 8 00:00:25.066 --> 00:00:28.806 seechangehappen.co.uk. You'll be 9 00:00:28.828 --> 00:00:32.662 able to catch up with all of the shows on iTunes, Spotify, and of course, 10 00:00:32.716 --> 00:00:36.546 the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab 11 00:00:36.578 --> 00:00:38.940 a decaf, and let's get going. 12 00:00:39.710 --> 00:00:43.366 Today is episode twelve with the title 13 00:00:43.478 --> 00:00:47.258 finding your courage and voice to speak out. And I 14 00:00:47.264 --> 00:00:51.114 have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Madeline Black. 15 00:00:51.312 --> 00:00:54.554 I met Madeline at an advent annual convention. The professional 16 00:00:54.602 --> 00:00:58.314 speakers in Coventry forward places. Madeline 17 00:00:58.362 --> 00:01:02.106 describes herself as someone who speaks out against sexual 18 00:01:02.138 --> 00:01:05.506 violence to end shame, stigma and the 19 00:01:05.528 --> 00:01:09.262 silence, and to help others find their courage and voice, 20 00:01:09.326 --> 00:01:12.306 too. I asked Madeline to describe her 21 00:01:12.328 --> 00:01:16.146 superpower and she said her voice 22 00:01:16.258 --> 00:01:19.702 and ability to speak out. So, hello, 23 00:01:19.756 --> 00:01:23.206 Madeline. Welcome to the show. Hi, Jo. Thanks for having me 24 00:01:23.228 --> 00:01:26.786 on. Amazing. Thank you for joining 25 00:01:26.818 --> 00:01:30.534 me. So, tell me, finding your courage and voice to speak out, 26 00:01:30.572 --> 00:01:34.314 what does that mean to. You know, for years, it was my 27 00:01:34.352 --> 00:01:38.186 shame that silenced me. I was so ashamed of my history, my 28 00:01:38.208 --> 00:01:42.006 own story, that I just assumed if people knew that they wouldn't 29 00:01:42.038 --> 00:01:45.214 want to know me, they would be horrified. They would look at me 30 00:01:45.252 --> 00:01:48.750 differently. But finding my voice to speak out 31 00:01:48.820 --> 00:01:52.650 is really stepping into that shame and not really worrying now 32 00:01:52.820 --> 00:01:56.260 what their opinion will be of me and speaking out anyway. 33 00:01:58.150 --> 00:02:01.902 Shame is. Yeah. I've listened to a lot of Brene Brown 34 00:02:01.966 --> 00:02:05.246 talks, and she talks about difference between shame and 35 00:02:05.288 --> 00:02:09.106 vulnerability and all these other aspects. And shame 36 00:02:09.218 --> 00:02:12.626 can almost destroy people. Can't it really affect their mental 37 00:02:12.658 --> 00:02:16.406 health? Absolutely. It really took away my 38 00:02:16.428 --> 00:02:20.074 voice, my ability to speak, and it silenced me for years. It took 39 00:02:20.112 --> 00:02:23.750 me 35 years to share my story publicly. 40 00:02:23.910 --> 00:02:27.702 A long time, really. Shame is just a horrible, 41 00:02:27.766 --> 00:02:30.800 horrible thing to hold on to. 42 00:02:32.050 --> 00:02:35.470 Yeah. I still talk to many people 43 00:02:35.540 --> 00:02:39.226 who, for whatever reason, don't 44 00:02:39.258 --> 00:02:42.974 feel able to speak their own truth. We talk about this, bring your whole self 45 00:02:43.012 --> 00:02:46.706 to work, but there's still much of our personalities that we 46 00:02:46.728 --> 00:02:50.130 just don't feel able to bring to work. And we're so 47 00:02:50.200 --> 00:02:54.014 conscious about how people will see us negatively by sharing 48 00:02:54.062 --> 00:02:57.782 this inner secret, don't we? Absolutely. The fear of being 49 00:02:57.836 --> 00:03:01.478 judged by others is huge. And actually, I'm a 50 00:03:01.484 --> 00:03:04.966 psychotherapist as well. So the judgement is often really what we do to 51 00:03:04.988 --> 00:03:08.790 ourselves. The judgement is really coming from us. But then, 52 00:03:08.860 --> 00:03:12.426 sadly, also with stories of sexual violence, we're not supported by 53 00:03:12.448 --> 00:03:16.234 society because we have so much victim blaming and rape culture that 54 00:03:16.272 --> 00:03:19.542 doesn't help women or men to come out and share their stories 55 00:03:19.606 --> 00:03:22.240 either. Yeah, 56 00:03:23.410 --> 00:03:25.902 I see a lot of this and we still have these debates on the news 57 00:03:25.956 --> 00:03:29.290 and the press about the rights 58 00:03:29.370 --> 00:03:33.054 of often the woman, 59 00:03:33.102 --> 00:03:36.082 not always the woman, but often the woman who is not 60 00:03:36.136 --> 00:03:39.010 believed or there's doubt. 61 00:03:40.070 --> 00:03:43.154 Her credibility or their credibility is often 62 00:03:43.352 --> 00:03:45.910 questioned by the circumstance 63 00:03:46.890 --> 00:03:50.534 of how that occurred. Rather than seeing them as a person, they're seeing 64 00:03:50.572 --> 00:03:54.422 them as a person wearing certain 65 00:03:54.476 --> 00:03:57.926 clothes or in certain situations and almost attributing the 66 00:03:57.948 --> 00:04:01.642 blame onto putting themselves in danger. Absolutely. 67 00:04:01.776 --> 00:04:05.402 But lacey underwear, lacey thongs does not cause 68 00:04:05.456 --> 00:04:09.258 rape. 100% of all rapes are caused by rapists. Because we know 69 00:04:09.264 --> 00:04:12.618 that babies in nappies are raped, women and burkers are raped, boys are 70 00:04:12.624 --> 00:04:16.462 raped. It wasn't their clothing that caused the rape. At the end of the day, 71 00:04:16.596 --> 00:04:20.126 it was the rapists, the perpetrators, who made the choice. I was 72 00:04:20.148 --> 00:04:23.774 recently just been asked to be a patron of another organisation called 73 00:04:23.812 --> 00:04:27.554 justice is now an english organisation and they are working to 74 00:04:27.592 --> 00:04:31.054 campaign against rapeness being used within the criminal justice 75 00:04:31.102 --> 00:04:34.914 system. Because for that very reason the judge will say, well, 76 00:04:34.952 --> 00:04:38.766 you were wearing a lacy thong, whatever, what do you expect? And no, it's nothing 77 00:04:38.808 --> 00:04:42.166 to do with your clothing. So I'm really pleased to be part of that, but 78 00:04:42.188 --> 00:04:45.814 really sad that this is still going on, this rape culture, this 79 00:04:45.852 --> 00:04:48.540 victim blaming society that we live. In, 80 00:04:49.550 --> 00:04:53.046 do you think this stems back from? I'm 81 00:04:53.078 --> 00:04:56.506 thinking to bring it into context, all the midwife, that kind 82 00:04:56.528 --> 00:04:59.878 of post war fifty s and sixty s where 83 00:05:00.064 --> 00:05:03.550 people didn't really express themselves until rock and roll came along. People 84 00:05:03.620 --> 00:05:06.734 generally dressed conservatively. Anybody who 85 00:05:06.772 --> 00:05:10.506 dressed less typically, more flamboyantly, 86 00:05:10.618 --> 00:05:14.320 was seen as somebody to be ashamed of, 87 00:05:14.690 --> 00:05:17.246 had to be a good little boy or a good little girl and dress smartly. 88 00:05:17.278 --> 00:05:20.946 And anybody who was maybe more flamboyant was seen as 89 00:05:20.968 --> 00:05:24.626 something not to aspire to. And that bad things happen to those people. Do you 90 00:05:24.648 --> 00:05:27.858 think it's rooted in that? It still comes down to judgments, doesn't it, at the 91 00:05:27.864 --> 00:05:31.286 end of the day, or this idea of how we have to conform and be 92 00:05:31.308 --> 00:05:34.914 a certain way. You can wear whatever you like. If you walk down the street 93 00:05:34.962 --> 00:05:38.726 naked, that's not an invitation to rape you. I don't know 94 00:05:38.748 --> 00:05:42.106 where it stems from. But sadly, it's not just been around since the 95 00:05:42.128 --> 00:05:45.418 1950s. Rape, sexual abuse, sexual violence has been around 96 00:05:45.504 --> 00:05:49.242 for a long, long time. We have many, many 97 00:05:49.296 --> 00:05:53.006 changes that need to happen. So it 98 00:05:53.028 --> 00:05:56.766 sounds to me that what you're saying and what I'm hearing is 99 00:05:56.788 --> 00:06:00.574 that it's almost the rapist is trying to justify their 100 00:06:00.612 --> 00:06:04.354 actions, almost like trying to depersonalise it. It wasn't me. It wasn't my 101 00:06:04.392 --> 00:06:07.874 fault. I was made to by what they were 102 00:06:07.912 --> 00:06:11.220 wearing. This is what they're trying to disassociate themselves with the act. 103 00:06:11.670 --> 00:06:15.406 Absolutely. And they're not taking any personal responsibility 104 00:06:15.518 --> 00:06:19.362 for something that they chose to do. I never invited 105 00:06:19.426 --> 00:06:23.014 to be gang raped at 13 or three more times before I was 106 00:06:23.052 --> 00:06:26.850 18. I know now it was nothing to do with what I was wearing, 107 00:06:26.930 --> 00:06:30.266 drinking, smoking, where I was hanging out. It was down to the 108 00:06:30.288 --> 00:06:32.250 perpetrators of those events. 109 00:06:34.270 --> 00:06:37.690 I think another part of it is language as well, because I'm very conscious about. 110 00:06:37.840 --> 00:06:41.626 You weren't the victim you were the target of. So you're not 111 00:06:41.648 --> 00:06:45.162 a victim, are you? You're the person it was done to. Guess, technically, 112 00:06:45.226 --> 00:06:48.906 legally, I am a victim of a crime. But I don't mind that word. It's 113 00:06:48.938 --> 00:06:52.506 okay, it doesn't impact on me because I guess victim also implies that you're 114 00:06:52.538 --> 00:06:56.286 weak. But, yeah, a crime was committed against my body, so I 115 00:06:56.308 --> 00:07:00.066 was a victim of a crime. But I also know now that I'm not my 116 00:07:00.088 --> 00:07:03.730 body, I'm not the things that these people did to me. 117 00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:07.174 And that took me a long time to work out as well. For years, like 118 00:07:07.212 --> 00:07:10.600 we said at the start, I was so ashamed. I felt so 119 00:07:11.050 --> 00:07:14.502 terrified of people finding out that they would just 120 00:07:14.556 --> 00:07:17.720 be disgusted because it left me feeling so 121 00:07:18.730 --> 00:07:22.426 worthless. I thought I was contaminated, that I could spread that 122 00:07:22.448 --> 00:07:26.154 on to someone else, even if by touching me. But I realise now that 123 00:07:26.192 --> 00:07:29.974 that's not true. But that took a lot of work, a long time, to find 124 00:07:30.032 --> 00:07:33.454 that out. But this is a combination of the 125 00:07:33.492 --> 00:07:36.926 perpetrator disassociating themselves by pushing the 126 00:07:36.948 --> 00:07:39.920 blame, the system itself, not 127 00:07:40.370 --> 00:07:43.760 supporting you in a respectful way, 128 00:07:44.210 --> 00:07:47.474 by trying to analyse whether you could have been the court. Did you invite this 129 00:07:47.512 --> 00:07:51.026 by what you're wearing, behaving? So you're transferring all of this 130 00:07:51.048 --> 00:07:54.786 responsibility, going, maybe it was me. Everyone's telling me it 131 00:07:54.808 --> 00:07:57.714 could be me, maybe it wasn't. And that must be the hard thing to break 132 00:07:57.752 --> 00:08:00.758 out of. Yeah. And I was also the first time, I was very young, I 133 00:08:00.764 --> 00:08:04.550 was only 13, it was the late 1970s. And I thought, well, 134 00:08:04.620 --> 00:08:08.246 we both lied about where we were staying. I had another girlfriend involved in the 135 00:08:08.268 --> 00:08:12.106 night and we'd met boys. We bought alcohol and we stayed in an 136 00:08:12.128 --> 00:08:15.722 empty flat. My friend's mum was away and we just thought we'd get into 137 00:08:15.776 --> 00:08:19.434 trouble. And also, they were very violent, the two young 138 00:08:19.472 --> 00:08:23.178 men who chose to rape me that night. And they threatened me. They told me 139 00:08:23.184 --> 00:08:26.814 that they would kill me if I spoke out. And after some of the things 140 00:08:26.852 --> 00:08:30.542 that he had done, I believed them. So that silenced me as well. 141 00:08:30.596 --> 00:08:34.298 For years, I was always looking over my shoulder, always worried that they 142 00:08:34.324 --> 00:08:38.098 would come back and find me. It must be 143 00:08:38.104 --> 00:08:41.730 very frightening because it's a way of silencing you and taking 144 00:08:41.800 --> 00:08:45.474 your power away again, isn't it? Absolutely. And I do believe it 145 00:08:45.512 --> 00:08:49.286 holds us back when we can't speak out. It just completely shut me 146 00:08:49.308 --> 00:08:53.106 down. And so much so, I guess it's almost like self harm 147 00:08:53.138 --> 00:08:56.966 in a way. I developed anorexia because what we don't speak about, it's got 148 00:08:56.988 --> 00:09:00.778 to come out somehow. It has to come out. I always think what 149 00:09:00.784 --> 00:09:04.086 we don't speak about leaks out of us. I developed an eating 150 00:09:04.118 --> 00:09:07.866 disorder. I became suicidal. I attempted suicide. Was in 151 00:09:07.888 --> 00:09:11.302 a children's psychiatric ward. I used drugs and alcohol, 152 00:09:11.446 --> 00:09:15.102 really, to numb out, to stop thinking and feeling. My 153 00:09:15.156 --> 00:09:18.686 family didn't know at the time, and Nick named me the ice maiden because I 154 00:09:18.708 --> 00:09:22.382 practically stopped speaking as well for about three years. So, yeah, I 155 00:09:22.436 --> 00:09:25.890 shut down. I guess I imploded rather than exploded. 156 00:09:27.510 --> 00:09:31.090 And it's still happening in a different sort of way online 157 00:09:31.160 --> 00:09:34.914 today, isn't. I mean, it doesn't have to be physical rape. I mean, okay, 158 00:09:34.952 --> 00:09:38.486 rape is rape, and that's rape defined. But there are ways one could 159 00:09:38.508 --> 00:09:42.294 be abused, thought made to 160 00:09:42.332 --> 00:09:45.926 feel insecure online. And that's as powerful your 161 00:09:45.948 --> 00:09:49.194 mental impact as a physical act, isn't it? Yeah. I look at all 162 00:09:49.232 --> 00:09:52.874 these female mps that get the 163 00:09:52.912 --> 00:09:56.746 most vile tweets sent out to them just from doing their 164 00:09:56.768 --> 00:10:00.426 job every day, wishing them dead, wishing them that they're going to be 165 00:10:00.448 --> 00:10:04.254 raped and swearing at them, and they don't deserve that. They're just going 166 00:10:04.292 --> 00:10:07.520 in to do their job. Whatever political side you believe in, 167 00:10:07.970 --> 00:10:11.678 they're not there to be a target for all of this hate, this online 168 00:10:11.764 --> 00:10:15.278 hate. Sometimes social media is brilliant, and sometimes 169 00:10:15.364 --> 00:10:17.280 it's just a vile place. 170 00:10:18.850 --> 00:10:22.498 Oh, for sure. And as soon as 171 00:10:22.504 --> 00:10:25.730 you lift the edge of the carpet up and look underneath, 172 00:10:26.970 --> 00:10:30.678 there's a big success problem. I was on LinkedIn, I 173 00:10:30.684 --> 00:10:34.450 think, the other day, and I think a mutual friend of ours James McKinty 174 00:10:34.530 --> 00:10:37.720 posted something on LinkedIn about 175 00:10:39.470 --> 00:10:42.698 how women, often women, mainly women, 176 00:10:42.864 --> 00:10:46.694 are being chatted up or having inappropriate 177 00:10:46.742 --> 00:10:49.910 comments made on the LinkedIn and other professional platforms. 178 00:10:50.070 --> 00:10:53.678 And I've seen many of these posts in the 179 00:10:53.684 --> 00:10:57.486 past. And when you read the voices of the women and 180 00:10:57.508 --> 00:11:00.510 the people who've been the targets, they have a very similar 181 00:11:00.580 --> 00:11:04.174 theme. And you 182 00:11:04.212 --> 00:11:07.854 don't know how much stalking has gone on before that 183 00:11:07.892 --> 00:11:11.626 post, how often that person has gone onto other profiles, 184 00:11:11.658 --> 00:11:14.480 said the same things, and the debate was around, 185 00:11:14.970 --> 00:11:18.338 should I, as a woman, should you as a woman 186 00:11:18.514 --> 00:11:21.400 pull that out publicly? Should we? Just 187 00:11:23.210 --> 00:11:26.834 about a year ago, I had so many inappropriate messages sent to me. Dick 188 00:11:26.882 --> 00:11:30.486 photos, all sorts. It was horrific. And I thought LinkedIn is meant to be a 189 00:11:30.508 --> 00:11:34.314 professional platform. Now I deal with it very differently. I had one 190 00:11:34.352 --> 00:11:37.526 just the other day who wanted to get to know me better offline, and here's 191 00:11:37.558 --> 00:11:41.146 his WhatsApp number. So I told him that to f off. And I told 192 00:11:41.168 --> 00:11:44.602 him, this is a professional platform. Go and download 193 00:11:44.666 --> 00:11:48.094 Tinder and leave me alone. And I just blocked him. But I shared this 194 00:11:48.132 --> 00:11:51.866 story and I had about five or six different messages, inappropriate 195 00:11:51.898 --> 00:11:55.118 messages, and I can't tell you how many women 196 00:11:55.204 --> 00:11:58.978 contacted me and how many men as well, good, supportive men. And it 197 00:11:58.984 --> 00:12:02.706 was viewed about 125,000 times, this post. It was a couple 198 00:12:02.728 --> 00:12:06.514 of years ago, and so many people had the 199 00:12:06.552 --> 00:12:10.306 same story. And just because it's a professional platform, there's 200 00:12:10.338 --> 00:12:14.086 trolls everywhere, there's chances all over the place. It 201 00:12:14.108 --> 00:12:17.818 doesn't make any difference. I naively thought it might have done because it's supposed to 202 00:12:17.824 --> 00:12:21.434 be professional. But no, they're everywhere. They 203 00:12:21.472 --> 00:12:23.900 are. And what surprised me 204 00:12:24.670 --> 00:12:27.180 was some of the men 205 00:12:28.190 --> 00:12:31.790 playing devil's advocate. They put it, they were playing devil's advocate, saying 206 00:12:31.940 --> 00:12:35.742 it was unfair of a woman to publicly name and shame somebody 207 00:12:35.876 --> 00:12:39.200 because isn't that reverse harassment? And I said, 208 00:12:40.130 --> 00:12:43.866 why is that reverse harassment? You're saying I should have dealt with that privately? 209 00:12:43.978 --> 00:12:47.778 I should have kept that secret, our dirty little secret, should I? And 210 00:12:47.944 --> 00:12:51.730 suddenly I'm now the one to be blamed for saying, no, 211 00:12:51.800 --> 00:12:55.474 I'm not going to tolerate this. Had you not wanted me to call you out, 212 00:12:55.512 --> 00:12:58.786 why did you send me the message? You weren't prepared to show that message to 213 00:12:58.808 --> 00:13:02.598 your wife, your mother, your children? Why would you send it to me? 214 00:13:02.764 --> 00:13:06.386 Maybe it's time for me to do another post. I've got a few messages I've 215 00:13:06.418 --> 00:13:09.960 taken screenshots of before I told them where to go. Yeah, 216 00:13:10.410 --> 00:13:13.180 it's quite right. We should always call it out. Always. 217 00:13:14.590 --> 00:13:18.186 I've been chatted up on eBay. I remember advertising something for 218 00:13:18.208 --> 00:13:21.626 sale and somebody who came second in the 219 00:13:21.648 --> 00:13:25.466 biding messaged me after saying, if the first person drops out, I'd 220 00:13:25.498 --> 00:13:29.022 be willing to step in. Please let me know. And I thought I just said, 221 00:13:29.076 --> 00:13:32.702 thank you. No problem. About an hour later, I got another 222 00:13:32.756 --> 00:13:36.546 message saying, forgive me for saying this, but I think you look 223 00:13:36.568 --> 00:13:40.402 gorgeous. I'd love to take you out for. Are 224 00:13:40.456 --> 00:13:44.098 you serious? Just ebay chat up. An eBay chat up? You 225 00:13:44.104 --> 00:13:46.600 think, is there nowhere you can go 226 00:13:47.770 --> 00:13:51.494 without being the target of this attention? And 227 00:13:51.612 --> 00:13:54.920 it really is quite frightening, isn't it? Yeah, it is. 228 00:13:56.170 --> 00:13:59.846 There are chances everywhere, really. But I do 229 00:13:59.868 --> 00:14:03.434 believe in the good of people. On the whole, people are really good. 230 00:14:03.552 --> 00:14:07.114 And that is what I try to put my attention on and my focus at, 231 00:14:07.152 --> 00:14:10.890 because there was a time as well where it wasn't just my shame that 232 00:14:11.040 --> 00:14:14.814 silenced me, it was my fear. Fear was my 233 00:14:14.852 --> 00:14:18.586 best friend and we walked side by side for years and it really restricted 234 00:14:18.618 --> 00:14:22.394 my life. So I guess finding my courage 235 00:14:22.442 --> 00:14:26.242 was also facing all of my fears and finding my voice to speak 236 00:14:26.296 --> 00:14:29.540 out, because fear really crippled me for a long time. 237 00:14:31.270 --> 00:14:34.754 Can you cast your mind back and remember, was there a triggering moment that 238 00:14:34.792 --> 00:14:38.546 allowed you to step forward into courage? Was there 239 00:14:38.568 --> 00:14:42.166 something that allowed you to unlock that? Was it a gradual process? I think it 240 00:14:42.188 --> 00:14:46.038 has been gradual. So I worked at Women's Aid for about 14 years, and I 241 00:14:46.044 --> 00:14:48.918 worked at rape crisis as a volunteer for about six years when I moved to 242 00:14:48.924 --> 00:14:52.586 Glasgow, Scotland. And I remember taking part in a 243 00:14:52.608 --> 00:14:56.394 campaign not that long before I found my voice publicly. And 244 00:14:56.512 --> 00:15:00.134 they were doing a campaign called this is not an invitation to rape 245 00:15:00.182 --> 00:15:03.966 me. And the journalist said, could he put up my photo and my name? Oh, 246 00:15:03.988 --> 00:15:07.550 no, that just felt too big. It just felt too huge. 247 00:15:07.700 --> 00:15:11.470 But when I was contacted by Marina from the forgiveness project, 248 00:15:11.540 --> 00:15:15.154 which is where I first shared my story publicly six years ago, 249 00:15:15.192 --> 00:15:19.026 actually, in September, she said, you can be anonymous. And at that 250 00:15:19.048 --> 00:15:22.542 point, I thought, I am tired of being ashamed 251 00:15:22.606 --> 00:15:26.306 for a crime committed against my body. So I 252 00:15:26.328 --> 00:15:29.990 think it has been a gradual process. And I had heard 253 00:15:30.060 --> 00:15:33.766 somebody else. We call ourselves stories from the forgiveness project. I had heard 254 00:15:33.788 --> 00:15:37.494 another story. She was going to prison to meet the 255 00:15:37.532 --> 00:15:41.286 serial rapist who had broken into her home while she was asleep and had 256 00:15:41.308 --> 00:15:44.906 raped her. Her two year old was asleep in the room next door and her 257 00:15:44.928 --> 00:15:48.666 husband was away in hospital. He only stopped because the knife broke. He 258 00:15:48.688 --> 00:15:52.394 would have killed her. And I just thought, you know, gosh, if she can sit 259 00:15:52.432 --> 00:15:55.838 opposite this man in prison for a three hour meeting. Then I am going to 260 00:15:55.844 --> 00:15:59.040 share my photo and my name. And it actually 261 00:15:59.730 --> 00:16:03.386 was the scariest thing I ever did, but the best thing I ever did. 262 00:16:03.428 --> 00:16:07.262 Because you can't eradicate shame 263 00:16:07.326 --> 00:16:10.802 by hiding in the shadows. You have to step into the shame to 264 00:16:10.856 --> 00:16:14.494 really go, well, fuck it, this is me. I don't 265 00:16:14.542 --> 00:16:18.002 care who knows anymore. This is who I am. And so 266 00:16:18.056 --> 00:16:21.426 stepping into the shame, doing the things that I would have run a million miles 267 00:16:21.458 --> 00:16:25.014 from years ago, that is what grew me. That is really what just 268 00:16:25.052 --> 00:16:28.554 shattered the shame completely. And ultimately then found my 269 00:16:28.592 --> 00:16:32.406 courage. That's so powerful. I'm 270 00:16:32.438 --> 00:16:36.106 just listening to you there, thinking some of the words you used 271 00:16:36.128 --> 00:16:39.274 there, it was about before you let 272 00:16:39.312 --> 00:16:43.066 yourself find your courage. You were effectively living two lives. You 273 00:16:43.088 --> 00:16:46.846 had the public Persona and your inner Persona, and you were 274 00:16:46.868 --> 00:16:50.654 out of alignment. You had to double think. You had to sort of work out 275 00:16:50.692 --> 00:16:53.280 who you were, what you could share, what you couldn't share. 276 00:16:54.770 --> 00:16:58.386 I can't relate to your experience, per se, but I know what it's like to 277 00:16:58.408 --> 00:17:02.194 have two voices, two heads, two thought processes, and that 278 00:17:02.232 --> 00:17:06.020 power disalignment of being that one person in public going, 279 00:17:06.470 --> 00:17:10.246 I'm proud of who I am. I'm not ashamed of who I am anymore. I 280 00:17:10.268 --> 00:17:13.842 can shout and say everything I want to. I have no secret. 281 00:17:13.986 --> 00:17:17.554 I'm not keeping a secret for anybody anymore. You get 282 00:17:17.612 --> 00:17:21.386 me? And that is a really empowering thing. And I listened to what you're saying 283 00:17:21.408 --> 00:17:22.620 there, and I'm just. 284 00:17:25.550 --> 00:17:29.322 My emotions. I guess 285 00:17:29.376 --> 00:17:33.194 people saw me. We're great at wearing masks. And I always 286 00:17:33.232 --> 00:17:36.526 feel like maybe I was a bit of a swan, that everything was fine and 287 00:17:36.548 --> 00:17:40.094 great, in control up above, but underneath, I'm paddling like crazy just to keep 288 00:17:40.132 --> 00:17:43.902 up. That's really how I think of how I lived those years. And it was 289 00:17:43.956 --> 00:17:47.138 fake. I had this fake smile on my face. I wanted to be the perfect 290 00:17:47.224 --> 00:17:51.058 mum, partner, homemaker. But, yeah, underneath it, 291 00:17:51.064 --> 00:17:54.802 I was terrified of people finding out. And now lifting that 292 00:17:54.856 --> 00:17:58.686 is like. It's so freeing. It's like, brilliant. Now I don't need to hide 293 00:17:58.718 --> 00:18:02.566 anymore. And a lot of my friends, some of them that did know, they 294 00:18:02.588 --> 00:18:06.198 didn't know all the details, and they didn't know that it was near fatal. They 295 00:18:06.204 --> 00:18:09.674 didn't know the level of violence. So putting that out 296 00:18:09.712 --> 00:18:13.526 there, it just really cuts 297 00:18:13.558 --> 00:18:16.954 all the chains that really tied me down and stopped me from 298 00:18:16.992 --> 00:18:20.654 growing. It's much more freeing from this side to really 299 00:18:20.692 --> 00:18:24.320 just say, this is me. This is everything that you need to know. 300 00:18:26.370 --> 00:18:29.950 Yeah, I'm almost welling up here. This is really powerful. 301 00:18:30.610 --> 00:18:34.446 When I talk to people, when talking about DNI, in 302 00:18:34.468 --> 00:18:38.050 corporates, in diversity, inclusion, belonging, we always talk. One of the 303 00:18:38.120 --> 00:18:40.370 powerful ways of doing this is through storytelling. 304 00:18:42.150 --> 00:18:44.946 I may not be able to have your exact experience, but if I can build 305 00:18:44.968 --> 00:18:48.694 this empathy bridge, if I can start to relate somehow to your 306 00:18:48.732 --> 00:18:52.440 lived experience, then I'm going to be able to 307 00:18:53.450 --> 00:18:57.186 encompass what you're saying into my sense of well being and my sense of psyche 308 00:18:57.218 --> 00:19:00.918 myself. And it's not. So I feel sympathy for you, so I 309 00:19:00.924 --> 00:19:04.586 feel empathy from you and I build strength from your strength. And I 310 00:19:04.608 --> 00:19:08.442 think by telling your story. And I really am not a fan of the word 311 00:19:08.496 --> 00:19:12.286 role model or the term role model, but we have to recognise that 312 00:19:12.308 --> 00:19:15.454 people do look to people for inspiration. If they can, I 313 00:19:15.492 --> 00:19:19.274 can. They've made it. I can make it. And that's the relatable 314 00:19:19.322 --> 00:19:19.920 experience. 315 00:19:23.170 --> 00:19:26.938 I'm sure you hate being called brave. It's 316 00:19:26.954 --> 00:19:30.226 a title awarded rather than a feeling you necessarily have. Bravery is 317 00:19:30.248 --> 00:19:33.940 hindsight at the time, you're just doing what you do. 318 00:19:34.710 --> 00:19:38.466 But, yeah, I'm sure you've given a lot of people, you've passed the 319 00:19:38.488 --> 00:19:42.018 courage on, if you like. Yeah, it is an interesting word, brave, because I don't 320 00:19:42.034 --> 00:19:45.094 want to be considered brave. I'd like it to be normal that we can all 321 00:19:45.132 --> 00:19:48.374 speak out and be okay with who we are and be 322 00:19:48.412 --> 00:19:52.186 accepted. But I realise a lot of that journey was a personal journey. I 323 00:19:52.208 --> 00:19:56.058 had to be okay with who I was, and I had to accept myself. And 324 00:19:56.144 --> 00:19:59.946 I can't undo what happened to me. But it's kind of 325 00:19:59.968 --> 00:20:03.786 a paradox, because in some ways it's clearly shaped my life, but in other 326 00:20:03.808 --> 00:20:07.406 ways, it's not who I am as well. The real essence of who 327 00:20:07.428 --> 00:20:11.214 we're all born with, that fire in our belly, whatever we are, whatever 328 00:20:11.252 --> 00:20:14.910 our experience is, nothing can change that. And that's what I really believe. 329 00:20:14.980 --> 00:20:18.462 But like you, I do believe in the power of sharing 330 00:20:18.526 --> 00:20:22.274 stories. And Marina, who is the founder of the forgiveness project, she has 331 00:20:22.312 --> 00:20:26.034 this beautiful expression. She doesn't call us storytellers, she calls us 332 00:20:26.072 --> 00:20:29.734 story healers. And I've just felt that healing power of 333 00:20:29.772 --> 00:20:33.506 sharing my story. Whether someone's been raped or not, there's 334 00:20:33.538 --> 00:20:37.334 always something that we can resonate with someone else. I've just felt it so many 335 00:20:37.372 --> 00:20:41.014 times. And that what really inspires me to 336 00:20:41.132 --> 00:20:44.906 carry on speaking out, it motivates me just to. Not for me 337 00:20:44.928 --> 00:20:48.234 anymore, but what it can do for other people now, to unlock their own 338 00:20:48.272 --> 00:20:51.930 potential, find their own voice and share their stories, 339 00:20:52.010 --> 00:20:55.630 speak out. Do you find 340 00:20:55.700 --> 00:20:59.200 sometimes that your story 341 00:21:00.210 --> 00:21:03.666 is you? You are your story. And sometimes it would just be nice to be 342 00:21:03.688 --> 00:21:07.266 Madeline for a while. Just be Madeline, just be 343 00:21:07.288 --> 00:21:10.834 recognised as a psychologist or wherever you 344 00:21:10.872 --> 00:21:14.706 are, rather than being. I don't want to be 345 00:21:14.728 --> 00:21:18.118 either the engine Jones esteem anymore, or Joe the trans person. I just want to 346 00:21:18.124 --> 00:21:21.938 be Joe the lockwood, Joe the person, Joe the trainer. 347 00:21:22.034 --> 00:21:25.542 Get that? But I realised my story had the power to help other people. 348 00:21:25.596 --> 00:21:29.354 So when I think back, 349 00:21:29.392 --> 00:21:32.460 it doesn't feel like me anymore. That person that I speak about. 350 00:21:32.990 --> 00:21:36.406 I've done a tonne load of therapy, a tonne load 351 00:21:36.438 --> 00:21:40.250 of speaking therapies, body therapy. I feel 352 00:21:40.320 --> 00:21:44.046 so healed. And in fact it's actually grown me now. I think 353 00:21:44.068 --> 00:21:47.806 there's post traumatic growth rather than post traumatic stress disorder. I think 354 00:21:47.828 --> 00:21:51.646 I've grown from my experience, so I'm okay with 355 00:21:51.668 --> 00:21:55.518 that. It's fine. People, you can't stop how people see you. They're going to 356 00:21:55.524 --> 00:21:58.306 see you however they want to. But as long as I'm okay with who I 357 00:21:58.328 --> 00:22:02.034 am, I think now that's taken me to this grand old age to get 358 00:22:02.072 --> 00:22:04.130 that. But that's really all that matters. 359 00:22:06.570 --> 00:22:10.050 Yeah. I'm just reading back on your superpower. 360 00:22:10.210 --> 00:22:14.054 It's your voice and ability to speak out. So your lived experience 361 00:22:14.252 --> 00:22:17.894 has given you this superpower and through this 362 00:22:17.932 --> 00:22:21.638 superpower, your purpose and mission in life, if you like. And it's something you're 363 00:22:21.654 --> 00:22:25.114 now rising to and using. I talk about 364 00:22:25.152 --> 00:22:28.698 privilege as being something you shouldn't be ashamed of. It's how you wield it. 365 00:22:28.784 --> 00:22:32.182 And you're using your privilege of strength and character 366 00:22:32.326 --> 00:22:36.174 and wielding that for the good of society. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, like 367 00:22:36.212 --> 00:22:39.662 I say, I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but I wouldn't undo it now because 368 00:22:39.716 --> 00:22:43.310 it really has taught me a lot. I mean, it's shown me, 369 00:22:43.460 --> 00:22:46.126 and I can see it in everybody else, that we're all so much stronger than 370 00:22:46.148 --> 00:22:49.986 we think we are. And really okay. I needed a lot of support to 371 00:22:50.008 --> 00:22:53.266 get past a lot of the issues that I had. I lived with PTSD for 372 00:22:53.288 --> 00:22:56.862 years and wasn't even aware. So many fears, phobias, 373 00:22:56.926 --> 00:23:00.646 anxieties. But at the end of the day, once I had worked it and 374 00:23:00.668 --> 00:23:03.574 worked it and worked it, I saw that I had a choice and I could 375 00:23:03.612 --> 00:23:07.366 choose to stay in my past or I 376 00:23:07.388 --> 00:23:10.426 could choose to grow from it. And that's what I chose to. So we all 377 00:23:10.448 --> 00:23:14.266 have a choice and we can get past anything that happens to us, we 378 00:23:14.288 --> 00:23:17.866 really can. So you did a 379 00:23:17.888 --> 00:23:21.050 TEDx, if I remember rightly, I did, yeah. Glasgow, 380 00:23:22.590 --> 00:23:26.238 was it? 2000 people in a big theatre somewhere, was it? Yeah. I don't know 381 00:23:26.244 --> 00:23:29.054 if I'll ever be doing that again. It was 382 00:23:29.092 --> 00:23:32.814 2100 or something like that. So again, it 383 00:23:32.852 --> 00:23:36.394 was one of the most terrifying moments of my life. Even though I had 384 00:23:36.452 --> 00:23:40.206 spoken on stages before, it really was pretty intense, 385 00:23:40.318 --> 00:23:43.634 because Glasgow, I didn't know. I know now, is one of the top ten ones 386 00:23:43.672 --> 00:23:46.740 in Europe, so it's a really hard one to get into, so I felt really 387 00:23:47.110 --> 00:23:50.934 proud that I got into that one, but they weren't sure about 388 00:23:50.972 --> 00:23:54.598 my story to start with, and then they were obviously really behind me. But 389 00:23:54.764 --> 00:23:58.566 once I walked out onto the stage and I stood on that red dot, I 390 00:23:58.588 --> 00:24:02.394 just thought, it's not about me speaking now, it's about who's listening, and 391 00:24:02.432 --> 00:24:06.186 that just centres me and grounds me, and it gave me the 392 00:24:06.208 --> 00:24:09.340 strength to share my story. And 393 00:24:10.670 --> 00:24:14.222 even if I just help one person, I think, well, that's my job done. And 394 00:24:14.356 --> 00:24:18.206 straight afterwards, I was contacted by a head teacher who I've now had a lot 395 00:24:18.228 --> 00:24:21.982 of contact with, and one young woman in the audience that was with 396 00:24:22.036 --> 00:24:25.774 the school party started to cry after she heard me. 397 00:24:25.812 --> 00:24:29.518 She got very triggered. And cut a long story short, she had been raped 398 00:24:29.534 --> 00:24:33.346 by her uncle three years prior. I've now met the young woman who is 399 00:24:33.448 --> 00:24:37.154 extraordinary, she's fabulous, and she said she would never have spoken out, 400 00:24:37.192 --> 00:24:40.854 but she saw me standing there with no shame and being proud of 401 00:24:40.892 --> 00:24:44.546