Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host
Joanne Lockwood: for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a
Joanne Lockwood: number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subject of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone
Joanne Lockwood: to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop
Joanne Lockwood: me a line to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
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Joanne Lockwood: you better catch up with all of these shows on iTunes, Spotify and the
Joanne Lockwood: usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a
Joanne Lockwood: decaf and let's get going. Today
Joanne Lockwood: is episode 13 with a title, how to Simplify
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion by focusing on behaviours. And I have the absolute
Joanne Lockwood: honour and privilege to be joined by Jackie Handy. I first met
Joanne Lockwood: Jackie at an annual convention of the Professional Speaking Association a few
Joanne Lockwood: years back, and of course, many times since, Jackie describes
Joanne Lockwood: herself as a speaker who trains global businesses on the topics of
Joanne Lockwood: diversity, inclusion, belonging and leadership.
Joanne Lockwood: I asked Jackie to describe her superpower and she said to
Joanne Lockwood: be able to speak people's languages in such a way to create simple,
Joanne Lockwood: clear understanding around a topic. So,
Joanne Lockwood: hello, Jackie, welcome to the show.
Jackie Handy: Hi, Jo. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes, and we've had some technical difficulties this morning, but I think
Joanne Lockwood: we've persevered, we've made it.
Joanne Lockwood: Tell me, then, how do you simplify inclusion by focusing on
Joanne Lockwood: behaviours? Well, yeah, I mean,
Jackie Handy: it's something that, I think it sort of does what it says on the tin,
Jackie Handy: but I think we all know that in order to become more
Jackie Handy: inclusive, we need to focus on the language that we
Jackie Handy: use and the behaviours that we demonstrate each and every day with
Jackie Handy: everybody in our networks. And what I found is,
Jackie Handy: when I'm speaking to organisations about their diversity and
Jackie Handy: inclusion strategies, so many of them are really
Jackie Handy: focusing on getting people through unconscious bias
Jackie Handy: training and potentially discrimination awareness training.
Jackie Handy: And whereas those things are incredibly useful
Jackie Handy: and a fundamental part of the diversity and inclusion
Jackie Handy: journey, I actually feel that sometimes people
Jackie Handy: find that that puts a bit of a sort of negative spin on how
Jackie Handy: they feel about the topic because of this discomfort it
Jackie Handy: creates. And so the way I see it, if we're
Jackie Handy: able to focus on predominantly the
Jackie Handy: proactive behavioural steps we can take
Jackie Handy: to be more inclusive in the actions
Jackie Handy: and behaviours and the language that we use every day,
Jackie Handy: then that creates a much more positive framework around
Jackie Handy: the topic of inclusion generally. I completely
Joanne Lockwood: agree. We all know that there's millions and millions of
Joanne Lockwood: pounds, euros and shekels spent around the world on
Joanne Lockwood: UB training. And you're right, evidence says
Joanne Lockwood: that it's not moving the needle at all. What do you think is actually going
Joanne Lockwood: wrong with the training? Is it because we're just teaching people about
Joanne Lockwood: biases and we're not actually giving them any
Joanne Lockwood: outcomes or real sort of practical steps? What's your thoughts? Well, my
Jackie Handy: thoughts are really that somebody
Jackie Handy: walks into a room, just sort of imagine this. I mean, you and I,
Jackie Handy: we're familiar with the space, we understand the space, we understand all the benefits
Jackie Handy: associated with it. But for somebody that's just
Jackie Handy: being introduced to diversity and inclusion and
Jackie Handy: their first experience of that is to walk into
Jackie Handy: a room and be told that they're actually bias, I
Jackie Handy: think that can feel very uncomfortable. And indeed I've
Jackie Handy: experienced that when I've been asked to deliver unconscious bias
Jackie Handy: training by organisations where I've had people say, well, I just
Jackie Handy: don't agree because I'm not bias. And so then you've
Jackie Handy: got that defensive mechanism and that fragility coming through, but
Jackie Handy: also you'll perhaps have people that were actually quite excited about
Jackie Handy: the whole topic and suddenly they feel really ashamed
Jackie Handy: that they've got a bias, when actually they thought they
Jackie Handy: were quite an inclusive individual. So, as I
Jackie Handy: say, I don't think that there's a problem having unconscious
Jackie Handy: bias training as part of an ongoing journey
Jackie Handy: towards diversity and inclusion in our society and in our
Jackie Handy: organisations. But I'm not sure it works well as an
Jackie Handy: opening gambit, when
Jackie Handy: actually, I think we all know that, as Simon
Jackie Handy: Sinek famously said, start with why. And we all know that
Jackie Handy: when we understand more about the
Jackie Handy: why to something and how that benefits not only ourselves but our
Jackie Handy: organisations and our society in general, then we're probably much more
Jackie Handy: likely to then start that journey from a positive standpoint
Jackie Handy: and then a little later down that journey are able to
Jackie Handy: understand more about our biases, but importantly why those biases
Jackie Handy: happen. And then, as you say, give them something to take away
Jackie Handy: and do differently on the back of that.
Joanne Lockwood: So I imagine right now there's probably people screaming at the podcast
Joanne Lockwood: going, well, I do unconscious bias training and I get great results, I'm really
Joanne Lockwood: positive. Or there's maybe some organisations out there listening in
Joanne Lockwood: saying, well, we've just invested unconscious bias training for all our staff and it's gone
Joanne Lockwood: really, really well. So I think we probably appreciate that not all unconscious bias training
Joanne Lockwood: is created equal. And there are some very good trainers out there, some
Joanne Lockwood: very good programmes do work. And I think what we do is we call them
Joanne Lockwood: unconscious bias training. But really they're more than that, aren't they? Well, absolutely.
Jackie Handy: And this isn't a
Jackie Handy: standpoint to say, oh, all trainers doing it are
Jackie Handy: rubbish. I've also delivered unconscious bias training for
Jackie Handy: organisations and had some good results and I'm sure you have too. I
Jackie Handy: think the point that I'm really making is that if
Jackie Handy: people really want to move the dial on inclusion, I mean,
Jackie Handy: unconscious bias training has been around for a long time now
Jackie Handy: and yet the dial is slow to move on inclusion.
Jackie Handy: So why is that if unconscious bias training is so good?
Jackie Handy: And I think one of the things I've said
Jackie Handy: is that it could cause a lack of
Jackie Handy: engagement, a disappointment in fact from delegates or some
Jackie Handy: delegates doing it. This is not a sweeping statement for everybody, but for
Jackie Handy: some. And the second thing
Jackie Handy: to say is that, as we know, in isolation, in fact any training
Jackie Handy: in isolation is not particularly effective and unconscious
Jackie Handy: bias training is no exception. So it has to be part of
Jackie Handy: a holistic approach to
Jackie Handy: embedding inclusion and inclusive actions and
Jackie Handy: behaviours within organisations as a whole.
Joanne Lockwood: I completely agree. I think we've seen over the last,
Joanne Lockwood: since lockdown, we've seen a lot of things going on the news
Joanne Lockwood: about how people are readjusting to working remotely, working
Joanne Lockwood: from home, working in different situations, people's mental health. We've also
Joanne Lockwood: seen the Black Lives Matter movement come to the
Joanne Lockwood: forefront on everyone's television screens. All of these
Joanne Lockwood: things are highlighting that it's not really bias
Joanne Lockwood: that is really the problem we're trying to fix. It's about systemic
Joanne Lockwood: oppression, systemic discrimination. It's about how
Joanne Lockwood: cultures are built for the privileged and
Joanne Lockwood: the less privileged. Intersectional individuals have
Joanne Lockwood: less privilege and less power. And that isn't really being
Joanne Lockwood: addressed by unconscious bias training, from what I understand. Exactly,
Jackie Handy: and I'm glad you raised it because it was a point I wanted to mention
Jackie Handy: too, is that as we know so often, unconscious bias training
Jackie Handy: doesn't refer to intersectionality. So it's very
Jackie Handy: much referring to underrepresented or
Jackie Handy: minority groups as a single
Jackie Handy: element, if you like. And we know that
Jackie Handy: identity isn't a single element for anybody really, is
Jackie Handy: it? So I think that can cause and
Jackie Handy: create issues and I guess
Jackie Handy: disengagement. Also, I think you
Jackie Handy: raised the good point about privilege and the systemic nature
Jackie Handy: of our society. And I think you
Jackie Handy: and I know that privilege isn't just about white privilege, but
Jackie Handy: privilege takes many, many forms. And again,
Jackie Handy: I think it's almost a more effective
Jackie Handy: exercise actually to highlight our privileges, or lack
Jackie Handy: thereof, in order to demonstrate how they
Jackie Handy: in turn our experiences, our cultural
Jackie Handy: backgrounds, our
Jackie Handy: privileged or less privileged condition in
Jackie Handy: society, basically
Jackie Handy: brings us to a place where we are going to have
Jackie Handy: more or less bias towards other people. And
Jackie Handy: it all forms part of that complete
Jackie Handy: approach, if you like. And I think therefore, one thing in
Jackie Handy: isolation is less effective than a whole combination
Jackie Handy: of interventions. I hate the term interventions when it comes
Jackie Handy: to diversity and inclusion, by the way, because I think it's an
Jackie Handy: ongoing journey, but for want of a better term,
Jackie Handy: I think there has to be a collaborative journey
Jackie Handy: approach to really committing
Jackie Handy: to inclusion. And as we know,
Jackie Handy: it's not enough to
Jackie Handy: say I'm not racist or I'm not
Jackie Handy: homophobic, or I'm not against women or whatever.
Jackie Handy: It's not enough anymore. It never has been enough just
Jackie Handy: to say those things. But actually we have to be proactive
Jackie Handy: in our allyship to be true allies.
Jackie Handy: And I think the George Floyd
Jackie Handy: killing has really, certainly from the Black Lives
Jackie Handy: Matter movement, has really brought that to the forefront of people's
Jackie Handy: attention that it is just not enough to say I'm not racist
Jackie Handy: or I don't believe I'm racist.
Jackie Handy: It needs another step whereby people
Jackie Handy: are stepping out and saying, and this is what I'm doing proactively about
Jackie Handy: that, to be antiracist.
Jackie Handy: And yeah, I think that's just highlighting what needs to
Jackie Handy: happen. One of the things we were chatting about before we went on
Joanne Lockwood: air was around this concept of being
Joanne Lockwood: deliberate and proactive in your inclusion. And
Joanne Lockwood: you're right in what you say there. By being
Joanne Lockwood: passively not racist is not the same
Joanne Lockwood: as being antiracist in an active way, is it?
Jackie Handy: Absolutely. And one of the things I talk about from my
Jackie Handy: own experience, of course, different experience,
Jackie Handy: but my own experience is the fact that all I really wanted
Jackie Handy: at certain points was somebody to stand up for me,
Jackie Handy: somebody to take my side, to fight my corner, to challenge the
Jackie Handy: people who were bullying me. And we're
Jackie Handy: reminded of the passive nature
Jackie Handy: of inclusion. I use that in inverted commas
Jackie Handy: again in the Black Lives movement, Matter
Jackie Handy: movement, because I've been reading a book,
Jackie Handy: a great book, and I was talking to you about this prior, but it's called
Jackie Handy: me and White Supremacy, and it's by Leila Saad. And it's a
Jackie Handy: great book that it's very reflective. It's
Jackie Handy: quite a hard read at times because it really
Jackie Handy: challenges your white privileges,
Jackie Handy: but it also explains the terminology in great
Jackie Handy: detail. But it gets you reflecting on so many
Jackie Handy: facets of the way in which you deal with racism and understand
Jackie Handy: racism in society. And
Jackie Handy: it goes deep enough to say, well, how do you
Jackie Handy: engage in conversations around racism with your family and with your
Jackie Handy: friends? And there are details in there about
Jackie Handy: perhaps somebody of an older generation in your family
Jackie Handy: has been somebody that
Jackie Handy: has made racist remarks or racist comments
Jackie Handy: or racist jokes in the past. And how have you challenged
Jackie Handy: that? And it really got me thinking, because as somebody
Jackie Handy: that is very, very passionate about inclusion in all its
Jackie Handy: forms, you don't really want to admit that you've ever
Jackie Handy: just let that go. And
Jackie Handy: often, with our nearest and dearest, we do.
Jackie Handy: We're more tolerant and accepting of their biases,
Jackie Handy: overt or otherwise. And yet,
Jackie Handy: as I was saying to you earlier, it's those people that
Jackie Handy: really we need to be having those deep and meaningful conversations with,
Jackie Handy: to challenge those belief systems. Because just because it
Jackie Handy: might have been acceptable 20, 30, 40 years
Jackie Handy: ago certainly doesn't mean it's acceptable now. And really, deep
Jackie Handy: in their hearts, those people realise that. So I think
Jackie Handy: they're ongoing conversations to really get us the
Jackie Handy: courage, not in a. And I use this
Jackie Handy: in the racism battle, if you like, for antiracism
Jackie Handy: in our society. I don't think in a sort of white
Jackie Handy: saviorist term, and
Jackie Handy: to make out that I'm the only white person and I'm here to
Jackie Handy: act on behalf of all white people to save the day, because it just
Jackie Handy: doesn't work that way. But to acknowledge that
Jackie Handy: even when we work in the field, there is always so much more we
Jackie Handy: can learn. And by honouring that
Jackie Handy: vulnerability, I think is a really good first
Jackie Handy: step to saying we want to walk that
Jackie Handy: walk. And we acknowledge there is more to do. And
Jackie Handy: personally, I'm taking ownership to do that. And I'd like to bring others
Jackie Handy: on the journey with me. Yeah, obviously
Joanne Lockwood: we're seasoned DNI professionals, some
Joanne Lockwood: might say, and we struggle sometimes,
Joanne Lockwood: being able to have conversations with people, being able to challenge
Joanne Lockwood: people, because it can take some personal bravery as
Joanne Lockwood: well, to be able to stand up to hearing something. You
Joanne Lockwood: may, at certain times, put yourself in a situation of danger
Joanne Lockwood: where you stand up, maybe in public, or you may find
Joanne Lockwood: yourself being victimised by calling it out and someone sort of
Joanne Lockwood: challenging you back. So for people who are
Joanne Lockwood: maybe not in the DNI space, not used to having these conversations,
Joanne Lockwood: what can they do to become comfortable doing this? I
Jackie Handy: mean, gosh, great question. And funnily enough,
Jackie Handy: a couple of the behaviours that I work with people to focus
Jackie Handy: on are vulnerability and
Jackie Handy: courageousness. Because, as we know, thanks
Jackie Handy: to Brene Brown and many other authors and speakers in that
Jackie Handy: field, but vulnerability and courage do go hand in hand
Jackie Handy: and in hand with that, you'll see how all these
Jackie Handy: behaviours that I talk about really intertwine with one another. There
Jackie Handy: has to be that creation of safety in that
Jackie Handy: environment. So
Jackie Handy: it almost needs a commitment of everyone to take small
Jackie Handy: steps. And I'm a big believer in small steps. Let's not try and run before
Jackie Handy: we can walk. Let's not try and be the expert in
Jackie Handy: everything immediately, or even ever, because
Jackie Handy: humanity evolves. Right. But let's think
Jackie Handy: about how we can start those
Jackie Handy: conversations from a place
Jackie Handy: of. I don't know, but I want to know.
Jackie Handy: And I think that when we do that from a place
Jackie Handy: of vulnerability, but with positive intention,
Jackie Handy: especially in our workplaces, we are more
Jackie Handy: likely to find that there is a
Jackie Handy: buy into at least starting those conversations. But I think
Jackie Handy: we have to have charters, if you want to call
Jackie Handy: it that, a code of ethics, whatever people want to call
Jackie Handy: it in their organisation, but agreements really, that
Jackie Handy: we're going to have conversations that may challenge us,
Jackie Handy: that we may not always agree with. Because I say to people, you
Jackie Handy: don't have to always agree with somebody's viewpoint to
Jackie Handy: respect it. And that is the key.
Jackie Handy: To be able to be open and vulnerable
Jackie Handy: would be the first step. Then link that in
Jackie Handy: with the courage to ask the questions and for the information that
Jackie Handy: you don't know as well as the courage to be asked, and
Jackie Handy: therefore respond to questions that might be asked of you and your own
Jackie Handy: identity starts to then
Jackie Handy: move that dial forward just for that couple of people
Jackie Handy: or that team or that division, very, very
Jackie Handy: gently and kindly, but
Jackie Handy: with positive intention. And we
Jackie Handy: know how important communication is in any area of business,
Jackie Handy: and this really is no exception. These
Jackie Handy: communications, they can't just be had in a
Jackie Handy: classroom, a facilitated space, but actually think
Jackie Handy: about ways that an organisation can incorporate
Jackie Handy: something to do with, excuse me, diversity and inclusion
Jackie Handy: into their team meetings, into a one to one with
Jackie Handy: a manager and a team member, but always with it framed at
Jackie Handy: the outset, always with permission and always with respect and
Jackie Handy: kindness and without judgement. That sounds like quite a
Jackie Handy: big catalogue of things, but actually we can make
Jackie Handy: it simple when all those parameters are put in place
Jackie Handy: and there is buying an agreement from everybody to commit.
Joanne Lockwood: Sure. I love the way you talked about
Joanne Lockwood: vulnerability. I'm a great believer in through
Joanne Lockwood: vulnerability you can build empathy. When you got
Joanne Lockwood: empathy, you can start building conversations and the space becomes non
Joanne Lockwood: threatening. It becomes an open conversation, doesn't it? Absolutely.
Jackie Handy: And this is why
Jackie Handy: I'm so big on saying, let's not have our
Jackie Handy: opening gambit as an unconscious bias training session,
Jackie Handy: because what often happens is we're forcing
Jackie Handy: people to show their
Jackie Handy: vulnerabilities. You put them through an IAT, the implicit association test,
Jackie Handy: for example, and there it is, their vulnerability laid bare. And they may not
Jackie Handy: be ready for that just at that moment. And whereas, I
Jackie Handy: think, I don't know if you've used them yourself, Jo,
Jackie Handy: probably. But when you have questions that you
Jackie Handy: ask gentle but impactful questions
Jackie Handy: around privilege, various types of privilege,
Jackie Handy: and then the individual can reflect themselves
Jackie Handy: on the privilege that they have or don't have,
Jackie Handy: then what you're able to do is from a place of. You're not
Jackie Handy: saying, oh, you have biases. What you're saying is the
Jackie Handy: society in which we live has, without you
Jackie Handy: requesting it, either worked to serve you and your
Jackie Handy: identity, or worked against you and your
Jackie Handy: identity. Let's have that from a
Jackie Handy: place of a springboard, if you like, to move
Jackie Handy: forward from. And I think that somehow, although the term
Jackie Handy: privilege sounds like a horrid term, when we really look under the surface of what
Jackie Handy: that means, privilege is having
Jackie Handy: something that goes in your favour that you've never asked
Jackie Handy: for. That's what privilege means.
Jackie Handy: Unlike the biases where we suggest that,
Jackie Handy: oh, actually, you should be working to overcome those biases, and we know that
Jackie Handy: can happen. But instead to say, well, let's look at what
Jackie Handy: society has or hasn't offered you. And now let's use that
Jackie Handy: from a place of springboard. Because when
Jackie Handy: we're starting then, and I guess I'm trying to make it
Jackie Handy: a bit more comfortable for people, and others may argue with me and
Jackie Handy: say, well, no, if people are to be inclusive, they have to feel
Jackie Handy: uncomfortable. But again, I just don't think it's a great place to
Jackie Handy: always open from. By being able to look at
Jackie Handy: systemic, the systemic nature of what's in our
Jackie Handy: society, first we can then look at, okay, and
Jackie Handy: how have I misunderstood the lack
Jackie Handy: of privilege that somebody, the person to the left or the person to the right
Jackie Handy: of me may have experienced? And that is
Jackie Handy: without saying, this person who's
Jackie Handy: LGBT, identifying as, or this person
Jackie Handy: who's female, or this person who uses a wheelchair or whatever, but instead of those
Jackie Handy: kind of cohorts, just simply as the person to the left of me
Jackie Handy: and the person to the right of me, what does their
Jackie Handy: experience look like from society? And then we can start taking
Jackie Handy: steps to look at individually what we can do. Does that make
Jackie Handy: sense? It does. I picked up a couple of words there. I was writing them
Joanne Lockwood: down. Relatability is quite a key
Joanne Lockwood: thing, and I know myself, I
Joanne Lockwood: don't consider myself privileged, but I am privileged. Does that make
Joanne Lockwood: sense? You don't self identify because we
Joanne Lockwood: all swim in the same air and the air we breathe is
Joanne Lockwood: our privilege and we don't see it often. And there's an
Joanne Lockwood: incident this week actually where my privilege was challenged
Joanne Lockwood: and it really knocked me, it really caused me to reflect. I mean,
Joanne Lockwood: I was in a group, we're having a conversation about something and
Joanne Lockwood: someone spoke about their perspective.
Joanne Lockwood: I felt myself triggered by it and I thought, wow, my privilege just
Joanne Lockwood: kicked in there and I felt really uncomfortable
Joanne Lockwood: and I had to self heal myself to think, right,
Joanne Lockwood: okay, let's work through this. That feeling I've just had
Joanne Lockwood: is my privilege being triggered. I fully
Joanne Lockwood: understand what it can feel like for a CEO, someone who's running a company, a
Joanne Lockwood: senior manager, to have someone challenge their privilege because they're going to feel this
Joanne Lockwood: uncomfortability that I felt certainly this week. And
Joanne Lockwood: I think we as educators, we've got to make sure we don't put people in
Joanne Lockwood: that position without some support to help them through that.
Jackie Handy: Absolutely. And what you're describing is
Jackie Handy: absolutely natural. And like
Jackie Handy: you, I have privilege in certain areas
Jackie Handy: of my identity and my lifestyle and my
Jackie Handy: culture, and I also fall foul. So
Jackie Handy: I'm considered, I suppose, inferior on a privilege perspective
Jackie Handy: in other areas. So this is that whole intersectionality coming in
Jackie Handy: again, and the fact that we are not just a
Jackie Handy: thing, a label, but we're so much more than that, so
Jackie Handy: much more complex. So you're right. I think
Jackie Handy: a couple of the behaviours that I focus on, one would be understanding, and
Jackie Handy: that's really understanding one another at a deeper level,
Jackie Handy: and there's more to it than that. But that's sort of in simple
Jackie Handy: terms. And then another of the behaviours is education.
Jackie Handy: And I mean that in terms of educating ourselves
Jackie Handy: on what does it mean to
Jackie Handy: have or not have privilege. And the fact
Jackie Handy: that, as you mentioned yourself, and I've done it too, Jo,
Jackie Handy: I've responded in a defensive way to
Jackie Handy: almost protect myself
Jackie Handy: because I don't want to appear like a bad person in some way.
Jackie Handy: That actually is also a thing. It is known as
Jackie Handy: a fragility response and it's quite
Jackie Handy: normal and it's quite natural. But to understand
Jackie Handy: why we do it is really more
Jackie Handy: of a lack of understanding of what
Jackie Handy: privilege actually means. Because privilege doesn't necessarily mean that
Jackie Handy: you were brought up in
Jackie Handy: affluence. It doesn't necessarily mean that at all. It could
Jackie Handy: be part of the privilege spectrum, if you like, but it certainly
Jackie Handy: doesn't just mean that, and I've seen some really,
Jackie Handy: to be honest, slightly cringeworthy
Jackie Handy: posts and so on that have come out just in the wake of
Jackie Handy: the George Floyd killing and the Black Lives Matter movement
Jackie Handy: starting being dominant again on
Jackie Handy: social, where people have said, yeah,
Jackie Handy: I don't have privilege either because I was brought up
Jackie Handy: in a poor family and so on, and I'm
Jackie Handy: realising that the intention is positive, but the education is
Jackie Handy: lacking as to what that really is. And so I think
Jackie Handy: that as educators, we not
Jackie Handy: only should be talking more around this stuff and
Jackie Handy: explaining in very respectful terms, so no one has to
Jackie Handy: patronise in this, we're all in this together, as it were,
Jackie Handy: but to explain clearly what it means and what it doesn't
Jackie Handy: mean, but then also empower those people
Jackie Handy: to self educate. I've just mentioned the book
Jackie Handy: I've read, and you and I, and I
Jackie Handy: know many others like us, invest in our own development
Jackie Handy: constantly. We're constantly
Jackie Handy: learning. And I've always said this in any aspect of my work, is
Jackie Handy: that the day you think you know everything is just like the saddest day
Jackie Handy: ever. There is so much always to learn.
Jackie Handy: I think that inclusion is another
Jackie Handy: topic, like many others, that it needs some
Jackie Handy: sort of gentle buy in persuasion and some
Jackie Handy: simplification on some of the things that we can do. But also
Jackie Handy: it needs enough to be able to be gifted
Jackie Handy: so that those people that we're working with can now feel
Jackie Handy: empowered to take responsibility to learn
Jackie Handy: more and also act on that and make
Jackie Handy: small changes. Again, I say those small steps that can really
Jackie Handy: make a difference, not only to their own lives, but to those around them.
Joanne Lockwood: Absolutely, for sure. As you're talking now, I think about. We're talking about trying
Joanne Lockwood: to practise relatability, trying to understand different people, checking our
Joanne Lockwood: own privilege and being able to walk into the shoes of others. And I know
Joanne Lockwood: many organisations, they bring in subject matter
Joanne Lockwood: experts, they host lunch and nerds and things,
Joanne Lockwood: and they bring in people
Joanne Lockwood: who maybe storytell, maybe some personal experience, or talk
Joanne Lockwood: about their own characteristic. And I'm a great believer in storytelling
Joanne Lockwood: as being a great source of education. But what I also sometimes
Joanne Lockwood: challenge organisations is, if they're not careful, they can be a bit tokenistic,
Joanne Lockwood: they can also be a bit. I
Joanne Lockwood: describe it as the greatest showman experience, where you've got P. T. Barnum getting
Joanne Lockwood: all the misfits into a room for the benefit and
Joanne Lockwood: entertainment of the privileged. Roll up, roll up. Come and see the
Joanne Lockwood: bearded lady, come and see the midget, come and see the person with three arms.
Joanne Lockwood: And sometimes we've got to be careful that corporate
Joanne Lockwood: best intentions don't end up feeling like this sort
Joanne Lockwood: of showcase of difference.
Jackie Handy: It's a great point and I'm in two minds
Jackie Handy: about this actually, because I think, first of all, I totally agree with
Jackie Handy: your storytelling. What I think is interesting
Jackie Handy: is when we look at organisations
Jackie Handy: and C suite roles and whatever, and especially now as
Jackie Handy: you're getting more diversity and inclusion directors
Jackie Handy: know, global heads of DNI and so on and so
Jackie Handy: forth, it's interesting that,
Jackie Handy: and I say this rarely, not
Jackie Handy: never, rarely is this a white, straight, able
Jackie Handy: bodied man.
Jackie Handy: What am I trying to say here? I think there is an element of
Jackie Handy: tokenism in that very nature to say, well, it's
Jackie Handy: DNI, so we need someone who's considered
Jackie Handy: diverse, as you say, in the kind of roll up, roll
Jackie Handy: up. And when
Jackie Handy: I think organisations get DNI people in or get
Jackie Handy: speakers in to talk about inclusion, it is
Jackie Handy: difficult because I think, all right, so if, let's just
Jackie Handy: say a white, straight, able bodied man
Jackie Handy: got up on stage to talk about the importance of diversity and
Jackie Handy: inclusion, now would there be anything wrong with
Jackie Handy: that? Absolutely not. I'm sure that that individual could
Jackie Handy: give just as much value because of course we don't know what's gone
Jackie Handy: on in their life and their life experiences, so they could give just as much
Jackie Handy: value. However, I think there are also going to be
Jackie Handy: people in the audience who would judge that and would say, oh,
Jackie Handy: okay, well look at that then. The privileged white
Jackie Handy: man, straight man, able bodied man dictating
Jackie Handy: to us about people who are very, very different.
Jackie Handy: So I guess you're kind of damned if you do and damned if you don't,
Jackie Handy: really. I think what
Jackie Handy: is important is whomever is on your stage. And by the way,
Jackie Handy: I'm quite happy to have organisations bring somebody in that's
Jackie Handy: got difference because it kind of helps me as much as it helps a lot
Jackie Handy: of us. But what I think is the most important
Jackie Handy: thing is that it just doesn't end there. And in the same way
Jackie Handy: that if you have somebody of an underrepresented
Jackie Handy: group as your head of DNI, that that really isn't just your
Jackie Handy: token approach. And actually there's something much
Jackie Handy: more proactive going on under the surface
Jackie Handy: to make sure that your rainbow
Jackie Handy: logo one month every year has really got some
Jackie Handy: substance underneath it. And I would say that about any other
Jackie Handy: campaign and so on, that is the important
Jackie Handy: thing. It's more than what just happens on a stage or what
Jackie Handy: happens in a classroom. And it's everything as we know about what
Jackie Handy: happens beyond that. That's what I would say about
Jackie Handy: that. It's a tough one. And I hear you
Jackie Handy: in terms of the sort of tokenistic feeling it can sometimes
Jackie Handy: have. I think it's
Jackie Handy: true. There are occasions where I think, oh, here we are, the
Jackie Handy: female lesbian, talking about diversity and inclusion. How
Jackie Handy: apt. But then,
Jackie Handy: on the other hand, I do have an experience
Jackie Handy: in that field. And we use our anecdotes in our
Jackie Handy: stories, don't we? We use our personal experience. It's part of who we are.
Jackie Handy: And I'm a white woman,
Jackie Handy: so I have privilege of colour, as it
Jackie Handy: were, in the society that we live in. I am a woman, so I
Jackie Handy: identify as a woman, so therefore
Jackie Handy: I potentially have an inferiority in some
Jackie Handy: parts of society. But we are just all a combination of
Jackie Handy: our experiences, our culture, our upbringing and so on.
Joanne Lockwood: This is the paradox of DNI, isn't it?
Joanne Lockwood: We're all there going, right, I don't want to be judged on the colour
Joanne Lockwood: of my skin, what's between my legs, my
Joanne Lockwood: ability or lack of physical, my disabilities,
Joanne Lockwood: my neurodiversity. I want to be accepted for who I am, the capability
Joanne Lockwood: I can do. Then in walks a white guy and stands
Joanne Lockwood: on stage, and then everybody's judging him on the colour of his
Joanne Lockwood: skin, his gender, and what does he know? So
Joanne Lockwood: this is this paradox, isn't it? We want to have
Joanne Lockwood: this right, not to be judged ourselves, yet
Joanne Lockwood: we're the first to maybe jump out and say, what do they know?
Joanne Lockwood: It is tricky. And I know sometimes it's more
Joanne Lockwood: about being seen to be doing the right thing, almost like this
Joanne Lockwood: political statement rather than necessity statement.
Joanne Lockwood: And I was on a call this week and someone
Joanne Lockwood: banded out this tired, sad trope, white
Joanne Lockwood: male, pale and stale, which I find personally offensive. I'm sure you
Joanne Lockwood: do, too. But again, what this person was then doing
Joanne Lockwood: was effectively demonising white men
Joanne Lockwood: in the DNI space for not knowing what they're talking about.
Joanne Lockwood: And I called it out and I said, look, I'm not prepared to be on
Joanne Lockwood: a call with that language that can be used. It's not my kind of thing.
Joanne Lockwood: But what we've got to be careful of here is we don't end up
Joanne Lockwood: creating our little echo chambers where we believe we use our
Joanne Lockwood: own bias to say, my opinion must be the only opinion. Nobody else can know
Joanne Lockwood: as much as I do, which is a bias. Absolutely. And I think you're
Jackie Handy: right. In the whole white male
Jackie Handy: area, discrimination is still discrimination.
Jackie Handy: Bias is still bias. And I think we do have
Jackie Handy: to be careful. I've been saying this for a while, we've got to be really
Jackie Handy: careful that we don't discriminate
Jackie Handy: against another group to give opportunities
Jackie Handy: to a different group.
Jackie Handy: Everybody has value and everybody's value should be
Jackie Handy: appreciated. And hence, again, why
Jackie Handy: I really promote the behaviour side of things,
Jackie Handy: because this is basically saying regardless of who we
Jackie Handy: are in terms of our physical or any,
Jackie Handy: any other sort of expression of our identity,
Jackie Handy: we all understand what it means to
Jackie Handy: demonstrate certain behaviours and that
Jackie Handy: actually it crosses borders and it crosses
Jackie Handy: boundaries of identity as well. And so that's why it
Jackie Handy: can be so effective, because we are the
Jackie Handy: first to say we don't like labels and yet constantly
Jackie Handy: we're labelling, labelling, labelling, this just removes
Jackie Handy: that once again. And all I would say is
Jackie Handy: fellow human being. And for a fellow human
Jackie Handy: being I'm going to take steps to learn about them, be
Jackie Handy: vulnerable with them, be courageous with them and
Jackie Handy: so on and so on. To really dig
Jackie Handy: deeper into that relationship and the
Jackie Handy: influence of that individual's and my own
Jackie Handy: identity in our relationship. And as we
Jackie Handy: understand one another better, just as individual human beings,
Jackie Handy: then we have a mutual platform
Jackie Handy: to work from. And that doesn't need
Jackie Handy: any label, does it? That's what I see as
Jackie Handy: that is just pure relationship building communication.
Jackie Handy: And to be honest with you, love between one
Jackie Handy: human being and another, that's really what I think
Jackie Handy: inclusion boils down to is just a love
Jackie Handy: of our fellow human beings.
Joanne Lockwood: Nicely said. Well put. I agree. I think
Joanne Lockwood: what you're saying there is we all can take personal responsibility
Joanne Lockwood: and accountability for being the one who can make a difference.
Joanne Lockwood: And by making a difference through love, through empathy, by having
Joanne Lockwood: our own vulnerability, being slow to judge,
Joanne Lockwood: quick to empathise for sure. I
Jackie Handy: think inclusion can be hard for people because
Jackie Handy: it does take an element of self reflection,
Jackie Handy: self evaluation
Jackie Handy: and sometimes a bit like the bias conversation.
Jackie Handy: It's not always comfortable what we
Jackie Handy: see when we look in the mirror, as it were. But
Jackie Handy: I think that once we acknowledge that,
Jackie Handy: regardless of how we identify, we will all have
Jackie Handy: that kind of balanced reflection, if you like.
Jackie Handy: So there's good in everybody. I really believe that
Jackie Handy: there's good in everybody, but there'll also be something that feels uncomfortable
Jackie Handy: to look at and we will all have that. You don't have
Jackie Handy: to only be a certain type of person to see that.
Jackie Handy: And once we recognise that, then we can take steps
Jackie Handy: to understand it. And that's where the bias piece
Jackie Handy: can be helpful. Sort of going full circle to where we
Jackie Handy: started. It can be helpful. But as I say, I think we have
Jackie Handy: to kind of frame things
Jackie Handy: from a kinder, more
Jackie Handy: positive place to begin with on that journey, to
Jackie Handy: prepare people for the potential discomfort that will
Jackie Handy: follow, but knowing that when they put themselves through that,
Jackie Handy: they'll come out stronger and more educated and more compassionate
Jackie Handy: at the other end. Awesome,
Joanne Lockwood: right? Just as a final note, what do you want to leave the listeners
Joanne Lockwood: with? What's your thought for the future that you want to leave everyone with?
Jackie Handy: I just. I long for the day when I'm out of
Jackie Handy: work, Jo. I long for the day that D I is
Jackie Handy: not a.
Jackie Handy: I mean, you've heard me talk about belonging as well.
Jackie Handy: We all have an innate need to feel
Jackie Handy: as though we belong and that our contribution to the
Jackie Handy: world matters and that we're valued for who we are.
Jackie Handy: And I almost can visualise how that would
Jackie Handy: be in the world. Whereas
Jackie Handy: I was speaking to someone the other day and I said, I'd love to
Jackie Handy: have a superhero power of love
Jackie Handy: glasses, where we literally all saw that. First
Jackie Handy: thing we saw when we looked at another human being was love. And
Jackie Handy: we start from a place of love
Jackie Handy: and then diversity and inclusion training isn't
Jackie Handy: required. It's more about developing and
Jackie Handy: deepening that understanding and bonds with our fellow human beings rather
Jackie Handy: than actually having to label it as something.
Jackie Handy: And maybe that does link to a sort of final word for
Jackie Handy: businesses. And that would be. Don't
Jackie Handy: necessarily think you have to call any kind of
Jackie Handy: dib. Diversity, inclusion,
Jackie Handy: belonging, intervention, diversity and
Jackie Handy: inclusion. You may find that actually by
Jackie Handy: calling it something different,
Jackie Handy: some form of journey that embeds within your culture
Jackie Handy: as an organisation will. Will help
Jackie Handy: keep. Keep people focused on the positives as opposed
Jackie Handy: to necessarily worrying about our.
Joanne Lockwood: That's. That's kind of what I would leave with.
Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. So the vision is D&I specialists
Joanne Lockwood: will be out of a job because it's embedded into the business and we just
Joanne Lockwood: do it because it's the way we are. What
Joanne Lockwood: a vision for the future. Well, thank you, Jackie. That's
Joanne Lockwood: been amazing. I've loved your insights and I'm sure everyone who's
Joanne Lockwood: listening will have much to ponder and take inspiration from. So how can
Joanne Lockwood: our listeners get in touch with you? Thank you, Jo. And it's been a pleasure
Jackie Handy: talking with you as well. So my website is
Jackie Handy: ww, jackiehandy.com. Nice
Jackie Handy: and simple. I'm also on LinkedIn. You'll find me as
Jackie Handy: Jackie Handy, FIRP on there.
Jackie Handy: Those are probably the best channels to find me
Jackie Handy: on. And if I'm allowed to say just one more
Jackie Handy: thing, I've literally, just literally just
Jackie Handy: put together a little book, which is called the Little Book of Belonging
Jackie Handy: and it's a kind of weekly guide to
Jackie Handy: inclusive behaviours and reflections for people. And
Jackie Handy: that can be found on my website as well. So that's the Little Book
Jackie Handy: of Belonging. I've seen you advertise that and promote it on
Joanne Lockwood: Facebook and LinkedIn. It looks really good, the Spiral Ring Bander and everything, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? Yeah. Literally just sits on your desk. So it's a desktop book.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And just so that listeners. I've got it.
Joanne Lockwood: Jackie is J-A-C-K-I-E isn't it? That's right, yeah. And
Jackie Handy: handy, as in youthful as I've been saying my whole life.
Jackie Handy: Yeah. Grown,
Jackie Handy: but yeah, that's correct. Well, thank you so much. Well, a
Joanne Lockwood: huge thank you both, Jackie and you, the listener, for tuning
Joanne Lockwood: in and sticking it out to the end. Please do subscribe
Joanne Lockwood: to keep updated on all the future episodes of the Inclusion Bytes podcast.
Joanne Lockwood: That's bites. Please tell your friends, please tell your
Joanne Lockwood: colleagues. I have a number of exciting guests lined up that will be
Joanne Lockwood: inspired by over the next few weeks and months. Remember, if you'd like to be
Joanne Lockwood: a guest, then do let me know. I'd also welcome any feedback and
Joanne Lockwood: suggestions you might have to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Joanne Lockwood: how I can improve future shows so my name is
Joanne Lockwood: Joanne and it has been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast.