WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.330 --> 00:00:06.058 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host 2 00:00:06.154 --> 00:00:09.918 for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a 3 00:00:09.924 --> 00:00:13.646 number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subject of 4 00:00:13.668 --> 00:00:17.502 inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone 5 00:00:17.556 --> 00:00:21.018 to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop 6 00:00:21.034 --> 00:00:21.918 me a line to 7 00:00:22.004 --> 00:00:25.842 jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 8 00:00:25.906 --> 00:00:29.606 That's seechangehappen.co.uk. Of course, 9 00:00:29.628 --> 00:00:33.286 you better catch up with all of these shows on iTunes, Spotify and the 10 00:00:33.308 --> 00:00:36.806 usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a 11 00:00:36.828 --> 00:00:40.566 decaf and let's get going. Today 12 00:00:40.668 --> 00:00:44.454 is episode 13 with a title, how to Simplify 13 00:00:44.582 --> 00:00:48.218 inclusion by focusing on behaviours. And I have the absolute 14 00:00:48.304 --> 00:00:51.834 honour and privilege to be joined by Jackie Handy. I first met 15 00:00:51.872 --> 00:00:55.614 Jackie at an annual convention of the Professional Speaking Association a few 16 00:00:55.652 --> 00:00:59.386 years back, and of course, many times since, Jackie describes 17 00:00:59.418 --> 00:01:02.906 herself as a speaker who trains global businesses on the topics of 18 00:01:02.948 --> 00:01:06.290 diversity, inclusion, belonging and leadership. 19 00:01:07.030 --> 00:01:10.866 I asked Jackie to describe her superpower and she said to 20 00:01:10.888 --> 00:01:14.578 be able to speak people's languages in such a way to create simple, 21 00:01:14.664 --> 00:01:18.354 clear understanding around a topic. So, 22 00:01:18.392 --> 00:01:20.900 hello, Jackie, welcome to the show. 23 00:01:21.990 --> 00:01:25.160 Hi, Jo. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here. 24 00:01:26.010 --> 00:01:29.786 Yes, and we've had some technical difficulties this morning, but I think 25 00:01:29.808 --> 00:01:31.820 we've persevered, we've made it. 26 00:01:33.870 --> 00:01:37.626 Tell me, then, how do you simplify inclusion by focusing on 27 00:01:37.648 --> 00:01:40.700 behaviours? Well, yeah, I mean, 28 00:01:41.470 --> 00:01:45.290 it's something that, I think it sort of does what it says on the tin, 29 00:01:45.370 --> 00:01:48.734 but I think we all know that in order to become more 30 00:01:48.772 --> 00:01:52.366 inclusive, we need to focus on the language that we 31 00:01:52.388 --> 00:01:56.046 use and the behaviours that we demonstrate each and every day with 32 00:01:56.068 --> 00:01:59.810 everybody in our networks. And what I found is, 33 00:01:59.880 --> 00:02:03.506 when I'm speaking to organisations about their diversity and 34 00:02:03.528 --> 00:02:07.094 inclusion strategies, so many of them are really 35 00:02:07.132 --> 00:02:10.594 focusing on getting people through unconscious bias 36 00:02:10.642 --> 00:02:13.640 training and potentially discrimination awareness training. 37 00:02:14.170 --> 00:02:17.746 And whereas those things are incredibly useful 38 00:02:17.858 --> 00:02:21.126 and a fundamental part of the diversity and inclusion 39 00:02:21.158 --> 00:02:24.650 journey, I actually feel that sometimes people 40 00:02:24.720 --> 00:02:28.554 find that that puts a bit of a sort of negative spin on how 41 00:02:28.592 --> 00:02:32.174 they feel about the topic because of this discomfort it 42 00:02:32.212 --> 00:02:35.946 creates. And so the way I see it, if we're 43 00:02:35.978 --> 00:02:39.182 able to focus on predominantly the 44 00:02:39.236 --> 00:02:42.590 proactive behavioural steps we can take 45 00:02:42.740 --> 00:02:46.366 to be more inclusive in the actions 46 00:02:46.478 --> 00:02:49.858 and behaviours and the language that we use every day, 47 00:02:50.024 --> 00:02:53.714 then that creates a much more positive framework around 48 00:02:53.752 --> 00:02:57.590 the topic of inclusion generally. I completely 49 00:02:57.660 --> 00:03:01.366 agree. We all know that there's millions and millions of 50 00:03:01.388 --> 00:03:04.870 pounds, euros and shekels spent around the world on 51 00:03:04.940 --> 00:03:08.662 UB training. And you're right, evidence says 52 00:03:08.716 --> 00:03:12.554 that it's not moving the needle at all. What do you think is actually going 53 00:03:12.592 --> 00:03:15.980 wrong with the training? Is it because we're just teaching people about 54 00:03:16.590 --> 00:03:19.946 biases and we're not actually giving them any 55 00:03:19.968 --> 00:03:23.566 outcomes or real sort of practical steps? What's your thoughts? Well, my 56 00:03:23.588 --> 00:03:27.150 thoughts are really that somebody 57 00:03:27.220 --> 00:03:30.766 walks into a room, just sort of imagine this. I mean, you and I, 58 00:03:30.948 --> 00:03:34.738 we're familiar with the space, we understand the space, we understand all the benefits 59 00:03:34.824 --> 00:03:38.450 associated with it. But for somebody that's just 60 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:42.242 being introduced to diversity and inclusion and 61 00:03:42.296 --> 00:03:46.078 their first experience of that is to walk into 62 00:03:46.104 --> 00:03:49.766 a room and be told that they're actually bias, I 63 00:03:49.788 --> 00:03:53.554 think that can feel very uncomfortable. And indeed I've 64 00:03:53.602 --> 00:03:57.186 experienced that when I've been asked to deliver unconscious bias 65 00:03:57.218 --> 00:04:00.886 training by organisations where I've had people say, well, I just 66 00:04:00.908 --> 00:04:04.758 don't agree because I'm not bias. And so then you've 67 00:04:04.774 --> 00:04:08.602 got that defensive mechanism and that fragility coming through, but 68 00:04:08.656 --> 00:04:12.494 also you'll perhaps have people that were actually quite excited about 69 00:04:12.532 --> 00:04:15.642 the whole topic and suddenly they feel really ashamed 70 00:04:15.786 --> 00:04:19.486 that they've got a bias, when actually they thought they 71 00:04:19.508 --> 00:04:23.346 were quite an inclusive individual. So, as I 72 00:04:23.368 --> 00:04:26.814 say, I don't think that there's a problem having unconscious 73 00:04:26.862 --> 00:04:30.446 bias training as part of an ongoing journey 74 00:04:30.558 --> 00:04:34.034 towards diversity and inclusion in our society and in our 75 00:04:34.072 --> 00:04:37.654 organisations. But I'm not sure it works well as an 76 00:04:37.692 --> 00:04:41.222 opening gambit, when 77 00:04:41.276 --> 00:04:44.946 actually, I think we all know that, as Simon 78 00:04:44.978 --> 00:04:48.826 Sinek famously said, start with why. And we all know that 79 00:04:48.848 --> 00:04:52.442 when we understand more about the 80 00:04:52.496 --> 00:04:56.266 why to something and how that benefits not only ourselves but our 81 00:04:56.288 --> 00:05:00.054 organisations and our society in general, then we're probably much more 82 00:05:00.112 --> 00:05:03.630 likely to then start that journey from a positive standpoint 83 00:05:05.170 --> 00:05:08.720 and then a little later down that journey are able to 84 00:05:09.490 --> 00:05:13.322 understand more about our biases, but importantly why those biases 85 00:05:13.386 --> 00:05:17.170 happen. And then, as you say, give them something to take away 86 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:19.620 and do differently on the back of that. 87 00:05:21.830 --> 00:05:25.422 So I imagine right now there's probably people screaming at the podcast 88 00:05:25.486 --> 00:05:29.334 going, well, I do unconscious bias training and I get great results, I'm really 89 00:05:29.372 --> 00:05:33.094 positive. Or there's maybe some organisations out there listening in 90 00:05:33.212 --> 00:05:36.486 saying, well, we've just invested unconscious bias training for all our staff and it's gone 91 00:05:36.508 --> 00:05:40.262 really, really well. So I think we probably appreciate that not all unconscious bias training 92 00:05:40.316 --> 00:05:44.026 is created equal. And there are some very good trainers out there, some 93 00:05:44.048 --> 00:05:47.354 very good programmes do work. And I think what we do is we call them 94 00:05:47.392 --> 00:05:51.230 unconscious bias training. But really they're more than that, aren't they? Well, absolutely. 95 00:05:51.380 --> 00:05:54.846 And this isn't a 96 00:05:54.868 --> 00:05:58.574 standpoint to say, oh, all trainers doing it are 97 00:05:58.612 --> 00:06:02.206 rubbish. I've also delivered unconscious bias training for 98 00:06:02.228 --> 00:06:05.954 organisations and had some good results and I'm sure you have too. I 99 00:06:05.992 --> 00:06:09.538 think the point that I'm really making is that if 100 00:06:09.624 --> 00:06:13.474 people really want to move the dial on inclusion, I mean, 101 00:06:13.512 --> 00:06:16.994 unconscious bias training has been around for a long time now 102 00:06:17.112 --> 00:06:20.882 and yet the dial is slow to move on inclusion. 103 00:06:20.946 --> 00:06:24.694 So why is that if unconscious bias training is so good? 104 00:06:24.812 --> 00:06:27.480 And I think one of the things I've said 105 00:06:28.890 --> 00:06:32.106 is that it could cause a lack of 106 00:06:32.128 --> 00:06:35.754 engagement, a disappointment in fact from delegates or some 107 00:06:35.792 --> 00:06:39.194 delegates doing it. This is not a sweeping statement for everybody, but for 108 00:06:39.232 --> 00:06:43.006 some. And the second thing 109 00:06:43.028 --> 00:06:46.702 to say is that, as we know, in isolation, in fact any training 110 00:06:46.756 --> 00:06:50.554 in isolation is not particularly effective and unconscious 111 00:06:50.602 --> 00:06:54.386 bias training is no exception. So it has to be part of 112 00:06:54.408 --> 00:06:57.060 a holistic approach to 113 00:06:57.510 --> 00:07:00.946 embedding inclusion and inclusive actions and 114 00:07:00.968 --> 00:07:03.940 behaviours within organisations as a whole. 115 00:07:05.270 --> 00:07:08.580 I completely agree. I think we've seen over the last, 116 00:07:09.050 --> 00:07:12.582 since lockdown, we've seen a lot of things going on the news 117 00:07:12.636 --> 00:07:16.454 about how people are readjusting to working remotely, working 118 00:07:16.492 --> 00:07:20.122 from home, working in different situations, people's mental health. We've also 119 00:07:20.176 --> 00:07:23.466 seen the Black Lives Matter movement come to the 120 00:07:23.488 --> 00:07:27.146 forefront on everyone's television screens. All of these 121 00:07:27.168 --> 00:07:30.922 things are highlighting that it's not really bias 122 00:07:30.986 --> 00:07:34.650 that is really the problem we're trying to fix. It's about systemic 123 00:07:34.730 --> 00:07:38.478 oppression, systemic discrimination. It's about how 124 00:07:38.644 --> 00:07:42.270 cultures are built for the privileged and 125 00:07:42.420 --> 00:07:46.162 the less privileged. Intersectional individuals have 126 00:07:46.216 --> 00:07:49.826 less privilege and less power. And that isn't really being 127 00:07:49.848 --> 00:07:53.060 addressed by unconscious bias training, from what I understand. Exactly, 128 00:07:53.430 --> 00:07:56.342 and I'm glad you raised it because it was a point I wanted to mention 129 00:07:56.396 --> 00:08:00.230 too, is that as we know so often, unconscious bias training 130 00:08:00.300 --> 00:08:03.846 doesn't refer to intersectionality. So it's very 131 00:08:03.868 --> 00:08:07.586 much referring to underrepresented or 132 00:08:07.628 --> 00:08:10.860 minority groups as a single 133 00:08:11.870 --> 00:08:15.610 element, if you like. And we know that 134 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:19.354 identity isn't a single element for anybody really, is 135 00:08:19.392 --> 00:08:23.054 it? So I think that can cause and 136 00:08:23.092 --> 00:08:26.910 create issues and I guess 137 00:08:26.980 --> 00:08:30.734 disengagement. Also, I think you 138 00:08:30.772 --> 00:08:34.622 raised the good point about privilege and the systemic nature 139 00:08:34.686 --> 00:08:38.514 of our society. And I think you 140 00:08:38.552 --> 00:08:41.954 and I know that privilege isn't just about white privilege, but 141 00:08:41.992 --> 00:08:45.734 privilege takes many, many forms. And again, 142 00:08:45.852 --> 00:08:49.282 I think it's almost a more effective 143 00:08:49.346 --> 00:08:53.042 exercise actually to highlight our privileges, or lack 144 00:08:53.106 --> 00:08:56.934 thereof, in order to demonstrate how they 145 00:08:56.972 --> 00:09:00.710 in turn our experiences, our cultural 146 00:09:00.790 --> 00:09:04.122 backgrounds, our 147 00:09:04.176 --> 00:09:07.546 privileged or less privileged condition in 148 00:09:07.568 --> 00:09:10.720 society, basically 149 00:09:11.730 --> 00:09:15.280 brings us to a place where we are going to have 150 00:09:15.650 --> 00:09:19.294 more or less bias towards other people. And 151 00:09:19.332 --> 00:09:22.878 it all forms part of that complete 152 00:09:22.964 --> 00:09:26.146 approach, if you like. And I think therefore, one thing in 153 00:09:26.168 --> 00:09:29.982 isolation is less effective than a whole combination 154 00:09:30.046 --> 00:09:33.666 of interventions. I hate the term interventions when it comes 155 00:09:33.688 --> 00:09:37.238 to diversity and inclusion, by the way, because I think it's an 156 00:09:37.244 --> 00:09:40.706 ongoing journey, but for want of a better term, 157 00:09:40.898 --> 00:09:44.258 I think there has to be a collaborative journey 158 00:09:44.354 --> 00:09:48.150 approach to really committing 159 00:09:48.230 --> 00:09:51.420 to inclusion. And as we know, 160 00:09:52.030 --> 00:09:55.402 it's not enough to 161 00:09:55.456 --> 00:09:58.426 say I'm not racist or I'm not 162 00:09:58.448 --> 00:10:02.160 homophobic, or I'm not against women or whatever. 163 00:10:03.170 --> 00:10:06.974 It's not enough anymore. It never has been enough just 164 00:10:07.012 --> 00:10:10.830 to say those things. But actually we have to be proactive 165 00:10:12.050 --> 00:10:14.930 in our allyship to be true allies. 166 00:10:16.230 --> 00:10:18.850 And I think the George Floyd 167 00:10:20.070 --> 00:10:23.570 killing has really, certainly from the Black Lives 168 00:10:23.640 --> 00:10:27.266 Matter movement, has really brought that to the forefront of people's 169 00:10:27.298 --> 00:10:31.122 attention that it is just not enough to say I'm not racist 170 00:10:31.186 --> 00:10:33.110 or I don't believe I'm racist. 171 00:10:35.210 --> 00:10:38.842 It needs another step whereby people 172 00:10:38.896 --> 00:10:42.442 are stepping out and saying, and this is what I'm doing proactively about 173 00:10:42.496 --> 00:10:45.450 that, to be antiracist. 174 00:10:46.510 --> 00:10:50.186 And yeah, I think that's just highlighting what needs to 175 00:10:50.208 --> 00:10:53.566 happen. One of the things we were chatting about before we went on 176 00:10:53.588 --> 00:10:57.022 air was around this concept of being 177 00:10:57.156 --> 00:11:00.926 deliberate and proactive in your inclusion. And 178 00:11:01.028 --> 00:11:03.380 you're right in what you say there. By being 179 00:11:03.750 --> 00:11:07.394 passively not racist is not the same 180 00:11:07.432 --> 00:11:10.850 as being antiracist in an active way, is it? 181 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:14.754 Absolutely. And one of the things I talk about from my 182 00:11:14.792 --> 00:11:18.198 own experience, of course, different experience, 183 00:11:18.364 --> 00:11:22.182 but my own experience is the fact that all I really wanted 184 00:11:22.236 --> 00:11:25.640 at certain points was somebody to stand up for me, 185 00:11:26.010 --> 00:11:29.786 somebody to take my side, to fight my corner, to challenge the 186 00:11:29.808 --> 00:11:33.446 people who were bullying me. And we're 187 00:11:33.478 --> 00:11:36.966 reminded of the passive nature 188 00:11:37.078 --> 00:11:40.730 of inclusion. I use that in inverted commas 189 00:11:42.370 --> 00:11:46.142 again in the Black Lives movement, Matter 190 00:11:46.196 --> 00:11:49.838 movement, because I've been reading a book, 191 00:11:49.924 --> 00:11:52.946 a great book, and I was talking to you about this prior, but it's called 192 00:11:52.968 --> 00:11:56.626 me and White Supremacy, and it's by Leila Saad. And it's a 193 00:11:56.648 --> 00:12:00.366 great book that it's very reflective. It's 194 00:12:00.398 --> 00:12:03.762 quite a hard read at times because it really 195 00:12:03.816 --> 00:12:07.270 challenges your white privileges, 196 00:12:07.610 --> 00:12:10.742 but it also explains the terminology in great 197 00:12:10.796 --> 00:12:14.278 detail. But it gets you reflecting on so many 198 00:12:14.364 --> 00:12:18.074 facets of the way in which you deal with racism and understand 199 00:12:18.192 --> 00:12:21.180 racism in society. And 200 00:12:21.950 --> 00:12:25.146 it goes deep enough to say, well, how do you 201 00:12:25.168 --> 00:12:28.906 engage in conversations around racism with your family and with your 202 00:12:28.928 --> 00:12:32.000 friends? And there are details in there about 203 00:12:33.170 --> 00:12:36.894 perhaps somebody of an older generation in your family 204 00:12:37.092 --> 00:12:39.680 has been somebody that 205 00:12:40.290 --> 00:12:43.962 has made racist remarks or racist comments 206 00:12:44.026 --> 00:12:47.694 or racist jokes in the past. And how have you challenged 207 00:12:47.742 --> 00:12:51.522 that? And it really got me thinking, because as somebody 208 00:12:51.576 --> 00:12:54.974 that is very, very passionate about inclusion in all its 209 00:12:55.032 --> 00:12:58.694 forms, you don't really want to admit that you've ever 210 00:12:58.732 --> 00:13:02.054 just let that go. And 211 00:13:02.252 --> 00:13:05.750 often, with our nearest and dearest, we do. 212 00:13:05.900 --> 00:13:09.638 We're more tolerant and accepting of their biases, 213 00:13:09.734 --> 00:13:13.210 overt or otherwise. And yet, 214 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:16.938 as I was saying to you earlier, it's those people that 215 00:13:17.024 --> 00:13:20.646 really we need to be having those deep and meaningful conversations with, 216 00:13:20.768 --> 00:13:24.446 to challenge those belief systems. Because just because it 217 00:13:24.468 --> 00:13:28.014 might have been acceptable 20, 30, 40 years 218 00:13:28.052 --> 00:13:31.786 ago certainly doesn't mean it's acceptable now. And really, deep 219 00:13:31.818 --> 00:13:35.486 in their hearts, those people realise that. So I think 220 00:13:35.508 --> 00:13:39.026 they're ongoing conversations to really get us the 221 00:13:39.048 --> 00:13:42.020 courage, not in a. And I use this 222 00:13:43.110 --> 00:13:46.834 in the racism battle, if you like, for antiracism 223 00:13:46.882 --> 00:13:49.670 in our society. I don't think in a sort of white 224 00:13:49.740 --> 00:13:53.446 saviorist term, and 225 00:13:53.548 --> 00:13:57.318 to make out that I'm the only white person and I'm here to 226 00:13:57.404 --> 00:14:01.114 act on behalf of all white people to save the day, because it just 227 00:14:01.152 --> 00:14:04.540 doesn't work that way. But to acknowledge that 228 00:14:05.150 --> 00:14:08.986 even when we work in the field, there is always so much more we 229 00:14:09.008 --> 00:14:12.110 can learn. And by honouring that 230 00:14:12.180 --> 00:14:15.822 vulnerability, I think is a really good first 231 00:14:15.876 --> 00:14:19.422 step to saying we want to walk that 232 00:14:19.476 --> 00:14:23.010 walk. And we acknowledge there is more to do. And 233 00:14:23.080 --> 00:14:26.882 personally, I'm taking ownership to do that. And I'd like to bring others 234 00:14:26.936 --> 00:14:30.610 on the journey with me. Yeah, obviously 235 00:14:30.680 --> 00:14:34.402 we're seasoned DNI professionals, some 236 00:14:34.456 --> 00:14:37.960 might say, and we struggle sometimes, 237 00:14:38.650 --> 00:14:42.242 being able to have conversations with people, being able to challenge 238 00:14:42.306 --> 00:14:46.006 people, because it can take some personal bravery as 239 00:14:46.028 --> 00:14:49.706 well, to be able to stand up to hearing something. You 240 00:14:49.728 --> 00:14:53.414 may, at certain times, put yourself in a situation of danger 241 00:14:53.462 --> 00:14:57.114 where you stand up, maybe in public, or you may find 242 00:14:57.152 --> 00:15:00.842 yourself being victimised by calling it out and someone sort of 243 00:15:00.896 --> 00:15:04.446 challenging you back. So for people who are 244 00:15:04.468 --> 00:15:07.710 maybe not in the DNI space, not used to having these conversations, 245 00:15:08.210 --> 00:15:11.966 what can they do to become comfortable doing this? I 246 00:15:11.988 --> 00:15:15.380 mean, gosh, great question. And funnily enough, 247 00:15:16.390 --> 00:15:19.938 a couple of the behaviours that I work with people to focus 248 00:15:20.024 --> 00:15:22.642 on are vulnerability and 249 00:15:22.696 --> 00:15:26.502 courageousness. Because, as we know, thanks 250 00:15:26.556 --> 00:15:30.134 to Brene Brown and many other authors and speakers in that 251 00:15:30.172 --> 00:15:33.560 field, but vulnerability and courage do go hand in hand 252 00:15:35.370 --> 00:15:38.762 and in hand with that, you'll see how all these 253 00:15:38.816 --> 00:15:42.634 behaviours that I talk about really intertwine with one another. There 254 00:15:42.672 --> 00:15:45.994 has to be that creation of safety in that 255 00:15:46.032 --> 00:15:47.340 environment. So 256 00:15:49.710 --> 00:15:53.390 it almost needs a commitment of everyone to take small 257 00:15:53.460 --> 00:15:57.214 steps. And I'm a big believer in small steps. Let's not try and run before 258 00:15:57.252 --> 00:16:01.086 we can walk. Let's not try and be the expert in 259 00:16:01.108 --> 00:16:04.850 everything immediately, or even ever, because 260 00:16:04.920 --> 00:16:08.754 humanity evolves. Right. But let's think 261 00:16:08.792 --> 00:16:11.682 about how we can start those 262 00:16:11.736 --> 00:16:14.814 conversations from a place 263 00:16:14.952 --> 00:16:18.680 of. I don't know, but I want to know. 264 00:16:20.570 --> 00:16:24.342 And I think that when we do that from a place 265 00:16:24.396 --> 00:16:27.830 of vulnerability, but with positive intention, 266 00:16:28.830 --> 00:16:32.554 especially in our workplaces, we are more 267 00:16:32.592 --> 00:16:36.266 likely to find that there is a 268 00:16:36.288 --> 00:16:40.086 buy into at least starting those conversations. But I think 269 00:16:40.128 --> 00:16:43.886 we have to have charters, if you want to call 270 00:16:43.908 --> 00:16:47.694 it that, a code of ethics, whatever people want to call 271 00:16:47.732 --> 00:16:51.440 it in their organisation, but agreements really, that 272 00:16:52.290 --> 00:16:56.130 we're going to have conversations that may challenge us, 273 00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:59.954 that we may not always agree with. Because I say to people, you 274 00:16:59.992 --> 00:17:03.522 don't have to always agree with somebody's viewpoint to 275 00:17:03.576 --> 00:17:05.960 respect it. And that is the key. 276 00:17:07.370 --> 00:17:11.190 To be able to be open and vulnerable 277 00:17:11.690 --> 00:17:15.382 would be the first step. Then link that in 278 00:17:15.436 --> 00:17:19.146 with the courage to ask the questions and for the information that 279 00:17:19.168 --> 00:17:22.826 you don't know as well as the courage to be asked, and 280 00:17:22.848 --> 00:17:26.282 therefore respond to questions that might be asked of you and your own 281 00:17:26.336 --> 00:17:29.980 identity starts to then 282 00:17:30.530 --> 00:17:34.270 move that dial forward just for that couple of people 283 00:17:34.340 --> 00:17:37.662 or that team or that division, very, very 284 00:17:37.716 --> 00:17:41.342 gently and kindly, but 285 00:17:41.396 --> 00:17:45.202 with positive intention. And we 286 00:17:45.256 --> 00:17:49.106 know how important communication is in any area of business, 287 00:17:49.208 --> 00:17:52.322 and this really is no exception. These 288 00:17:52.376 --> 00:17:56.166 communications, they can't just be had in a 289 00:17:56.188 --> 00:17:59.894 classroom, a facilitated space, but actually think 290 00:17:59.932 --> 00:18:03.410 about ways that an organisation can incorporate 291 00:18:03.490 --> 00:18:07.314 something to do with, excuse me, diversity and inclusion 292 00:18:07.362 --> 00:18:10.938 into their team meetings, into a one to one with 293 00:18:11.024 --> 00:18:14.778 a manager and a team member, but always with it framed at 294 00:18:14.784 --> 00:18:18.186 the outset, always with permission and always with respect and 295 00:18:18.208 --> 00:18:21.646 kindness and without judgement. That sounds like quite a 296 00:18:21.668 --> 00:18:25.486 big catalogue of things, but actually we can make 297 00:18:25.508 --> 00:18:29.280 it simple when all those parameters are put in place 298 00:18:30.210 --> 00:18:33.810 and there is buying an agreement from everybody to commit. 299 00:18:35.670 --> 00:18:38.500 Sure. I love the way you talked about 300 00:18:38.950 --> 00:18:42.674 vulnerability. I'm a great believer in through 301 00:18:42.712 --> 00:18:46.226 vulnerability you can build empathy. When you got 302 00:18:46.248 --> 00:18:49.906 empathy, you can start building conversations and the space becomes non 303 00:18:49.938 --> 00:18:53.094 threatening. It becomes an open conversation, doesn't it? Absolutely. 304 00:18:53.212 --> 00:18:55.880 And this is why 305 00:18:58.030 --> 00:19:01.546 I'm so big on saying, let's not have our 306 00:19:01.568 --> 00:19:05.142 opening gambit as an unconscious bias training session, 307 00:19:05.206 --> 00:19:08.358 because what often happens is we're forcing 308 00:19:08.454 --> 00:19:11.914 people to show their 309 00:19:11.952 --> 00:19:15.774 vulnerabilities. You put them through an IAT, the implicit association test, 310 00:19:15.812 --> 00:19:19.646 for example, and there it is, their vulnerability laid bare. And they may not 311 00:19:19.668 --> 00:19:23.106 be ready for that just at that moment. And whereas, I 312 00:19:23.128 --> 00:19:26.606 think, I don't know if you've used them yourself, Jo, 313 00:19:26.638 --> 00:19:30.274 probably. But when you have questions that you 314 00:19:30.312 --> 00:19:33.634 ask gentle but impactful questions 315 00:19:33.752 --> 00:19:36.870 around privilege, various types of privilege, 316 00:19:38.890 --> 00:19:42.438 and then the individual can reflect themselves 317 00:19:42.604 --> 00:19:45.480 on the privilege that they have or don't have, 318 00:19:46.330 --> 00:19:50.074 then what you're able to do is from a place of. You're not 319 00:19:50.112 --> 00:19:53.626 saying, oh, you have biases. What you're saying is the 320 00:19:53.648 --> 00:19:57.354 society in which we live has, without you 321 00:19:57.392 --> 00:20:00.494 requesting it, either worked to serve you and your 322 00:20:00.532 --> 00:20:03.902 identity, or worked against you and your 323 00:20:03.956 --> 00:20:07.646 identity. Let's have that from a 324 00:20:07.668 --> 00:20:11.342 place of a springboard, if you like, to move 325 00:20:11.396 --> 00:20:15.166 forward from. And I think that somehow, although the term 326 00:20:15.198 --> 00:20:18.786 privilege sounds like a horrid term, when we really look under the surface of what 327 00:20:18.808 --> 00:20:21.938 that means, privilege is having 328 00:20:22.104 --> 00:20:25.702 something that goes in your favour that you've never asked 329 00:20:25.756 --> 00:20:28.520 for. That's what privilege means. 330 00:20:31.130 --> 00:20:34.774 Unlike the biases where we suggest that, 331 00:20:34.812 --> 00:20:38.566 oh, actually, you should be working to overcome those biases, and we know that 332 00:20:38.588 --> 00:20:41.946 can happen. But instead to say, well, let's look at what 333 00:20:41.968 --> 00:20:45.802 society has or hasn't offered you. And now let's use that 334 00:20:45.856 --> 00:20:49.418 from a place of springboard. Because when 335 00:20:49.504 --> 00:20:53.134 we're starting then, and I guess I'm trying to make it 336 00:20:53.252 --> 00:20:56.846 a bit more comfortable for people, and others may argue with me and 337 00:20:56.868 --> 00:21:00.702 say, well, no, if people are to be inclusive, they have to feel 338 00:21:00.756 --> 00:21:04.514 uncomfortable. But again, I just don't think it's a great place to 339 00:21:04.552 --> 00:21:08.162 always open from. By being able to look at 340 00:21:08.216 --> 00:21:11.506 systemic, the systemic nature of what's in our 341 00:21:11.528 --> 00:21:15.122 society, first we can then look at, okay, and 342 00:21:15.176 --> 00:21:18.946 how have I misunderstood the lack 343 00:21:18.978 --> 00:21:22.774 of privilege that somebody, the person to the left or the person to the right 344 00:21:22.812 --> 00:21:26.454 of me may have experienced? And that is 345 00:21:26.492 --> 00:21:29.130 without saying, this person who's 346 00:21:30.030 --> 00:21:33.674 LGBT, identifying as, or this person 347 00:21:33.712 --> 00:21:37.434 who's female, or this person who uses a wheelchair or whatever, but instead of those 348 00:21:37.472 --> 00:21:41.194 kind of cohorts, just simply as the person to the left of me 349 00:21:41.232 --> 00:21:44.894 and the person to the right of me, what does their 350 00:21:44.932 --> 00:21:48.190 experience look like from society? And then we can start taking 351 00:21:48.260 --> 00:21:51.534 steps to look at individually what we can do. Does that make 352 00:21:51.572 --> 00:21:55.346 sense? It does. I picked up a couple of words there. I was writing them 353 00:21:55.368 --> 00:21:58.722 down. Relatability is quite a key 354 00:21:58.776 --> 00:22:02.546 thing, and I know myself, I 355 00:22:02.568 --> 00:22:06.078 don't consider myself privileged, but I am privileged. Does that make 356 00:22:06.104 --> 00:22:09.734 sense? You don't self identify because we 357 00:22:09.772 --> 00:22:13.526 all swim in the same air and the air we breathe is 358 00:22:13.548 --> 00:22:17.398 our privilege and we don't see it often. And there's an 359 00:22:17.404 --> 00:22:20.570 incident this week actually where my privilege was challenged 360 00:22:21.790 --> 00:22:25.610 and it really knocked me, it really caused me to reflect. I mean, 361 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:29.260 I was in a group, we're having a conversation about something and 362 00:22:30.130 --> 00:22:32.750 someone spoke about their perspective. 363 00:22:33.970 --> 00:22:37.726 I felt myself triggered by it and I thought, wow, my privilege just 364 00:22:37.748 --> 00:22:40.826 kicked in there and I felt really uncomfortable 365 00:22:41.018 --> 00:22:44.834 and I had to self heal myself to think, right, 366 00:22:44.872 --> 00:22:48.514 okay, let's work through this. That feeling I've just had 367 00:22:48.552 --> 00:22:51.966 is my privilege being triggered. I fully 368 00:22:51.998 --> 00:22:55.586 understand what it can feel like for a CEO, someone who's running a company, a 369 00:22:55.608 --> 00:22:59.206 senior manager, to have someone challenge their privilege because they're going to feel this 370 00:22:59.228 --> 00:23:02.600 uncomfortability that I felt certainly this week. And 371 00:23:03.290 --> 00:23:06.838 I think we as educators, we've got to make sure we don't put people in 372 00:23:06.844 --> 00:23:10.554 that position without some support to help them through that. 373 00:23:10.672 --> 00:23:14.410 Absolutely. And what you're describing is 374 00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:17.850 absolutely natural. And like 375 00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:21.498 you, I have privilege in certain areas 376 00:23:21.514 --> 00:23:24.734 of my identity and my lifestyle and my 377 00:23:24.772 --> 00:23:28.590 culture, and I also fall foul. So 378 00:23:28.740 --> 00:23:32.266 I'm considered, I suppose, inferior on a privilege perspective 379 00:23:32.378 --> 00:23:36.194 in other areas. So this is that whole intersectionality coming in 380 00:23:36.232 --> 00:23:39.762 again, and the fact that we are not just a 381 00:23:39.816 --> 00:23:43.586 thing, a label, but we're so much more than that, so 382 00:23:43.608 --> 00:23:46.340 much more complex. So you're right. I think 383 00:23:47.430 --> 00:23:51.126 a couple of the behaviours that I focus on, one would be understanding, and 384 00:23:51.148 --> 00:23:54.360 that's really understanding one another at a deeper level, 385 00:23:55.370 --> 00:23:58.842 and there's more to it than that. But that's sort of in simple 386 00:23:58.896 --> 00:24:02.620 terms. And then another of the behaviours is education. 387 00:24:03.150 --> 00:24:06.810 And I mean that in terms of educating ourselves 388 00:24:07.310 --> 00:24:10.862 on what does it mean to 389 00:24:10.916 --> 00:24:14.334 have or not have privilege. And the fact 390 00:24:14.372 --> 00:24:18.110 that, as you mentioned yourself, and I've done it too, Jo, 391 00:24:18.850 --> 00:24:22.334 I've responded in a defensive way to 392 00:24:22.372 --> 00:24:25.220 almost protect myself 393 00:24:26.310 --> 00:24:29.940 because I don't want to appear like a bad person in some way. 394 00:24:31.030 --> 00:24:34.770 That actually is also a thing. It is known as 395 00:24:34.840 --> 00:24:38.342 a fragility response and it's quite 396 00:24:38.396 --> 00:24:42.086 normal and it's quite natural. But to understand 397 00:24:42.188 --> 00:24:45.894 why we do it is really more 398 00:24:45.932 --> 00:24:49.514 of a lack of understanding of what 399 00:24:49.552 --> 00:24:53.306 privilege actually means. Because privilege doesn't necessarily mean that 400 00:24:53.328 --> 00:24:56.554 you were brought up in 401 00:24:56.592 --> 00:25:00.214