WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.260 --> 00:00:09.896 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the 2 00:00:09.918 --> 00:00:13.656 Inclusion Bytes podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number 3 00:00:13.678 --> 00:00:17.256 of amazing people and simply having a conversation about the subjects of 4 00:00:17.278 --> 00:00:20.792 inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better 5 00:00:20.846 --> 00:00:24.616 place for everyone to thrive in. If you'd like to join me in the future, 6 00:00:24.718 --> 00:00:26.456 then please do drop me a line to 7 00:00:26.478 --> 00:00:30.204 jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's 8 00:00:30.252 --> 00:00:33.936 seechangehappen.co.uk. You'll be able to 9 00:00:33.958 --> 00:00:37.456 catch up with all of the shows on iTunes, Spotify and, of course, all the 10 00:00:37.478 --> 00:00:40.768 usual other places. So plug in your headphones, grab a 11 00:00:40.774 --> 00:00:44.484 deca and let's get going. Today 12 00:00:44.602 --> 00:00:48.276 is episode 14 with the title why is it 13 00:00:48.298 --> 00:00:52.116 so Hard for Women to get in the boardroom? And I have the 14 00:00:52.138 --> 00:00:55.628 absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Gllian Jones 15 00:00:55.664 --> 00:00:59.112 Williams. I first met Gillian many, many moons ago 16 00:00:59.246 --> 00:01:03.016 when I was her business's IT support consultant. That's going back 17 00:01:03.038 --> 00:01:06.684 a bit. Gillian describes herself as someone who works with 18 00:01:06.722 --> 00:01:09.724 organisations to help them move away from focusing on 19 00:01:09.762 --> 00:01:13.416 diversity and truly engaging in creating an inclusive 20 00:01:13.448 --> 00:01:16.876 climate. I asked Gillian to describe her 21 00:01:16.898 --> 00:01:20.556 superpower and she said her superpower 22 00:01:20.668 --> 00:01:24.464 is inspiring people. Welcome to the show, 23 00:01:24.502 --> 00:01:28.224 Gillian. How are you? Hello, Joanne. I'm very, very good and thank 24 00:01:28.262 --> 00:01:32.036 you so much for inviting me. And, yes, 25 00:01:32.138 --> 00:01:35.600 I really do hope I inspire people, particularly 26 00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:39.280 women. It's a massive passion 27 00:01:39.360 --> 00:01:43.196 for me, watching women develop. I've 28 00:01:43.248 --> 00:01:47.092 been running my business for 25 years and I've had the privilege 29 00:01:47.236 --> 00:01:50.836 over those 25 years of coaching 30 00:01:51.028 --> 00:01:54.728 many, many women in senior positions and 31 00:01:54.814 --> 00:01:58.012 two senior positions, and I've listened to their 32 00:01:58.066 --> 00:02:01.404 challenges, I've tried to help them work with their 33 00:02:01.442 --> 00:02:05.212 organisational culture. I've listened to their 34 00:02:05.346 --> 00:02:09.056 inner inhibitors and I think I've got 35 00:02:09.078 --> 00:02:12.592 to the point where I'm now understanding a bit 36 00:02:12.646 --> 00:02:16.464 more about, potentially, why this is such 37 00:02:16.502 --> 00:02:20.224 a struggle for women. And just to put some context, before 38 00:02:20.262 --> 00:02:23.664 we start talking about it, I saw some 39 00:02:23.702 --> 00:02:27.460 figures from a report by Deloitte's last year, which 40 00:02:27.530 --> 00:02:31.348 talked about the fact that globally, there was only just 41 00:02:31.434 --> 00:02:34.730 about 16.1% 42 00:02:35.340 --> 00:02:38.904 of women on boards. And what was even 43 00:02:38.942 --> 00:02:41.256 worse about that, that was only a 44 00:02:41.278 --> 00:02:43.992 1.9% increase since 45 00:02:44.046 --> 00:02:47.496 2017. So if we carry on at the rate we're 46 00:02:47.528 --> 00:02:51.260 going, it might be 30 years before there's actually 47 00:02:51.330 --> 00:02:54.990 gender parity in the boardroom, which is shocking, isn't it? 48 00:02:56.000 --> 00:02:59.244 Completely. And stats. I'm almost appalled at 49 00:02:59.282 --> 00:03:02.704 where a lot of companies think it's a great target to aim for 50 00:03:02.742 --> 00:03:06.416 25% women or 30% women. I think surely the target should be 51 00:03:06.438 --> 00:03:09.760 50% or nothing, really, don't you think? 52 00:03:09.830 --> 00:03:13.648 Yeah. And also I have to wonder 53 00:03:13.814 --> 00:03:17.568 whether there is a little bit of sneakiness going on. I'm sure it's not deliberate 54 00:03:17.664 --> 00:03:20.390 in nonexec roles as well at the moment, 55 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:24.916 because obviously if you have a non exec on the board, are we reporting 56 00:03:24.948 --> 00:03:28.488 that as part of the female makeup of the 57 00:03:28.494 --> 00:03:31.944 board? I guess it depends on whether the 58 00:03:31.982 --> 00:03:35.764 nonexec is being paid or if it's a voluntary role. So many non exec 59 00:03:35.812 --> 00:03:39.052 roles, expenses only, aren't they? Yes, 60 00:03:39.186 --> 00:03:39.870 absolutely. 61 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:46.604 Do you think it's a man problem or 62 00:03:46.642 --> 00:03:49.628 a woman problem? Do you think that men are making it hard or do you 63 00:03:49.634 --> 00:03:53.052 think that women are being turned off by those roles 64 00:03:53.116 --> 00:03:56.624 because they just don't want to get engaged in that kind of work? 65 00:03:56.742 --> 00:04:00.448 Yeah, I think it's both. And I 66 00:04:00.454 --> 00:04:04.292 think both of them need to be tackled. I still 67 00:04:04.346 --> 00:04:07.940 think that there does exist a lot of prejudice about the fact 68 00:04:08.010 --> 00:04:10.976 that women cannot take on that role 69 00:04:11.088 --> 00:04:14.776 wholeheartedly immerse themselves in the 70 00:04:14.798 --> 00:04:18.452 responsibility and the workload of a board member, 71 00:04:18.596 --> 00:04:22.410 particularly if they have family to look after. 72 00:04:23.020 --> 00:04:26.716 So I think that there is some unconscious bias going on there and I think 73 00:04:26.738 --> 00:04:30.430 there's some conscious bias going on there. But I also think 74 00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:34.716 it's to do with two things for women. One 75 00:04:34.818 --> 00:04:38.576 is how they feel, and we hear 76 00:04:38.598 --> 00:04:41.410 a lot about impostor syndrome and things like that at the moment, 77 00:04:42.420 --> 00:04:45.980 but also about how well organisations 78 00:04:46.140 --> 00:04:49.616 are prepared to set up a 79 00:04:49.638 --> 00:04:53.364 progression, plan a career path and really prepare them, because the step 80 00:04:53.402 --> 00:04:57.220 up from senior manager to board member is a very, 81 00:04:57.290 --> 00:05:00.976 very big and different one. And there's a lot of preparation 82 00:05:01.168 --> 00:05:03.670 that I think needs to take place. 83 00:05:07.660 --> 00:05:11.000 For me, I see a lot of women in their 84 00:05:11.150 --> 00:05:14.804 late twenty s to mid 30s, quite rightly 85 00:05:14.852 --> 00:05:18.524 wanted to take time out for their family, and that is 86 00:05:18.562 --> 00:05:22.316 lost time, because that's the peak part of your business growth, your 87 00:05:22.338 --> 00:05:25.516 professional development, isn't it? And that's where you establish your 88 00:05:25.538 --> 00:05:29.256 credentials. And quite rightly, women are establishing 89 00:05:29.288 --> 00:05:33.056 their credentials as a great parent. And why does it have to be 90 00:05:33.078 --> 00:05:36.652 a choice made? Absolutely. And I think that's 91 00:05:36.796 --> 00:05:40.352 very outdated, isn't it, when people think it has to be either 92 00:05:40.406 --> 00:05:44.180 or. And of course, there's another issue nowadays is that often 93 00:05:44.250 --> 00:05:47.700 women are leaving it until they're 40, so maybe 94 00:05:47.770 --> 00:05:51.604 they're establishing more of their career. I mean, when I had my 95 00:05:51.642 --> 00:05:55.416 children, I was 30 when I had my first child, and I remember the 96 00:05:55.438 --> 00:05:58.788 midwife sprinkling my notes with Prima 97 00:05:58.804 --> 00:06:02.616 gravido, which meant elderly first mother, and 98 00:06:02.638 --> 00:06:06.284 of course, nowadays that's sort of almost the norm, and 99 00:06:06.322 --> 00:06:09.996 then going up to 40. And so women are getting a 100 00:06:10.018 --> 00:06:13.356 good chunk of experience and work done 101 00:06:13.538 --> 00:06:16.860 before that age and then maybe going off 102 00:06:16.930 --> 00:06:20.704 to have their families and coming 103 00:06:20.742 --> 00:06:24.256 back very quickly. But perhaps one of the issues about that 104 00:06:24.438 --> 00:06:28.076 is that people don't perceive that you're 105 00:06:28.108 --> 00:06:31.652 ready to be on a board until you're in your 40s. 106 00:06:31.786 --> 00:06:35.140 They want people to be older, and 107 00:06:35.210 --> 00:06:38.756 maybe that's coinciding with family time. 108 00:06:38.858 --> 00:06:42.036 So if they're thinking, no, 30, 35, still a bit young, 109 00:06:42.138 --> 00:06:45.604 can't have you, you won't be able to stand up to 110 00:06:45.802 --> 00:06:49.000 some of the larger, more dominant male counterparts. 111 00:06:49.500 --> 00:06:53.224 And then when you're older and having children, that again makes 112 00:06:53.262 --> 00:06:56.332 you worry, well, can you take on a big role when you've just had young 113 00:06:56.386 --> 00:07:00.104 children as well? So there's lots 114 00:07:00.152 --> 00:07:03.772 of, I think, views about 115 00:07:03.906 --> 00:07:07.752 when is the right time, the right age, and why can't a woman 116 00:07:07.816 --> 00:07:09.810 in her early thirty s be on a board. 117 00:07:11.540 --> 00:07:15.330 For sure? Absolutely. I often see that 118 00:07:16.100 --> 00:07:19.890 across genders where there's this perception that you have to be of a certain age. 119 00:07:20.420 --> 00:07:24.084 Did anyone tell Mark Zuckerberg he couldn't have found a 120 00:07:24.122 --> 00:07:27.956 multibillion dollar company at the age of 1816 or whatever? He did. And we 121 00:07:27.978 --> 00:07:31.444 look at a lot of these startups in tech. These were 122 00:07:31.482 --> 00:07:34.932 formed by young people in their teens and early 123 00:07:34.986 --> 00:07:38.520 20s. No one told them they couldn't be a director at that age. 124 00:07:38.670 --> 00:07:41.720 So why do you have to have time served 125 00:07:42.220 --> 00:07:45.416 often? Maybe you become entrenched in your 126 00:07:45.438 --> 00:07:49.244 views. Maybe people have this 127 00:07:49.282 --> 00:07:52.936 bias to perceive. You must have done 30, 40 years with an accountancy 128 00:07:52.968 --> 00:07:56.220 or legal background to be a good board director. 129 00:07:57.840 --> 00:08:01.664 Yeah, it's not true, really, is it? Not true at all. And I think 130 00:08:01.782 --> 00:08:05.084 one of the other things that they're 131 00:08:05.132 --> 00:08:08.864 missing is a bit like, as you go up a leadership ladder as 132 00:08:08.902 --> 00:08:11.916 well, is that it's not 133 00:08:11.958 --> 00:08:15.476 necessarily about your technical expertise. That 134 00:08:15.578 --> 00:08:19.076 is what's going to make the difference on the board. It's more about your 135 00:08:19.098 --> 00:08:22.596 emotional intelligence, your ability to lead, your ability to 136 00:08:22.698 --> 00:08:25.912 galvanise people into action, have 137 00:08:25.966 --> 00:08:29.288 charisma, vision. And 138 00:08:29.454 --> 00:08:33.176 women do bring a huge amount to the boardroom in 139 00:08:33.198 --> 00:08:36.812 terms of their negotiating skills, in terms 140 00:08:36.866 --> 00:08:40.664 of their financial acumen. Maybe that comes from years of budgeting, 141 00:08:40.712 --> 00:08:43.944 I don't know, and their emotional 142 00:08:43.992 --> 00:08:47.276 intelligence in terms of bringing a 143 00:08:47.298 --> 00:08:51.084 balance to a board. And I'm going to talk quite frankly, 144 00:08:51.132 --> 00:08:54.636 Joanne, I have worked over the last 25 years, as you can imagine, 145 00:08:54.748 --> 00:08:58.320 with a huge amount of all male boards 146 00:08:58.820 --> 00:09:02.372 and it's quite a tough environment to be in 147 00:09:02.426 --> 00:09:05.270 because they tend to set themselves 148 00:09:06.200 --> 00:09:09.924 into quite a club there that it's almost very, 149 00:09:09.962 --> 00:09:13.784 very difficult for new people to come in and feel comfortable with 150 00:09:13.822 --> 00:09:17.224 as well. It's different nowadays, but 151 00:09:17.262 --> 00:09:20.964 certainly 25 years ago, you can imagine the stats 152 00:09:21.012 --> 00:09:22.490 were very, very different too. 153 00:09:24.620 --> 00:09:28.428 And I think the makeup of the board sets the 154 00:09:28.434 --> 00:09:31.724 tone for the organisation, doesn't it? So if the board is all 155 00:09:31.762 --> 00:09:34.540 male, it's setting the tone for the organisation. 156 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:39.256 Therefore, when women join in the junior ranks, they're 157 00:09:39.288 --> 00:09:42.896 already in a world that is male dominated, they're already in a world that is 158 00:09:42.918 --> 00:09:45.920 designed by men, for men. So the flexibility, 159 00:09:46.500 --> 00:09:49.936 as you say, the EQ, a lot of that stuff isn't pervasive in the 160 00:09:49.958 --> 00:09:53.568 organisations at the junior level either, is it? So we're designing 161 00:09:53.584 --> 00:09:57.348 this. Why don't women succeed? Because they're not committed. Well, they're 162 00:09:57.354 --> 00:10:01.204 not committed in a male dominated world. They're committed in the 163 00:10:01.242 --> 00:10:04.500 business world, they can deliver, they can work, as we know, 164 00:10:04.650 --> 00:10:08.280 but they don't want to be men, they want to be women. And 165 00:10:08.430 --> 00:10:11.432 that's what men want men to be. Men. They don't want women to be women 166 00:10:11.486 --> 00:10:14.984 sometimes. Is that part of the problem? I do think it 167 00:10:15.022 --> 00:10:18.552 is, and I think that the 168 00:10:18.606 --> 00:10:21.690 wider sort of diversity angle here, 169 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:25.710 starting to lose some of their shackles about our 170 00:10:26.160 --> 00:10:29.688 unconscious bias and our view of how a 171 00:10:29.714 --> 00:10:33.424 person should be and what a person should look like. I mean, if I asked 172 00:10:33.462 --> 00:10:37.216 everybody to close their eyes and imagine a 173 00:10:37.238 --> 00:10:40.812 board of directors, they probably would struggle 174 00:10:40.876 --> 00:10:44.260 to push the women in there in their visualisation because 175 00:10:44.330 --> 00:10:47.844 of so many years of programming them. And that's not 176 00:10:47.882 --> 00:10:51.348 to criticise people for it, that's how it always 177 00:10:51.434 --> 00:10:55.224 was and for a lot of people being brought up that way. And maybe 178 00:10:55.262 --> 00:10:59.048 what needs to happen is for ambitious women 179 00:10:59.214 --> 00:11:03.048 who believe that they could be a board member and want to 180 00:11:03.054 --> 00:11:06.836 be a board member before they accept a job, they should 181 00:11:06.878 --> 00:11:10.604 really examine the makeup of that board 182 00:11:10.722 --> 00:11:14.364 at the time, even if it might be ten years away from 183 00:11:14.402 --> 00:11:17.916 where they're going now, and they might need to do 184 00:11:17.938 --> 00:11:21.504 that. They should perhaps ask that and say, could you tell me what your board 185 00:11:21.542 --> 00:11:24.816 is made up of and how diverse it 186 00:11:24.838 --> 00:11:28.604 is? What are your targets? 187 00:11:28.652 --> 00:11:30.768 What are you looking, how are you looking to change that? How are you going 188 00:11:30.774 --> 00:11:34.596 to evolve that? Do you think it's good enough as it is and maybe ask 189 00:11:34.618 --> 00:11:37.972 them if they're happy with it? I guess those are questions, aren't they? Yeah. 190 00:11:38.026 --> 00:11:41.780 Yes. It must be tough 191 00:11:42.760 --> 00:11:46.552 being a woman going into a boardroom maybe 192 00:11:46.606 --> 00:11:49.940 newly appointed and you're the only woman. That must be really daunting. 193 00:11:50.020 --> 00:11:53.704 Yeah. You'd have to have a certain set of 194 00:11:53.742 --> 00:11:57.130 resilience within you to be able to cope with that environment, wouldn't you? 195 00:11:59.660 --> 00:12:03.036 Is that some of the challenge of getting the second woman onto the board? Because 196 00:12:03.138 --> 00:12:06.968 the first woman has to be comfortable in that environment? Or maybe it's 197 00:12:06.984 --> 00:12:09.436 just not that easy getting the first woman on the board, let alone the second, 198 00:12:09.458 --> 00:12:12.896 3rd or fourth, or even trying to get the mix of 50 50. There must 199 00:12:12.918 --> 00:12:16.704 be a real challenge. It is a real challenge and I think for the 200 00:12:16.742 --> 00:12:20.512 first woman on a boarD, that can be really, 201 00:12:20.566 --> 00:12:23.936 really hard for them. And I think this is where impostor 202 00:12:23.968 --> 00:12:27.572 syndrome really does tend to kick in. I have 203 00:12:27.626 --> 00:12:30.932 heard stories still of, even at port 204 00:12:30.986 --> 00:12:34.776 level, them being asked to get the coffee or are they going 205 00:12:34.798 --> 00:12:38.472 to take the minutes in this meeting? And when you are 206 00:12:38.526 --> 00:12:41.396 surrounded by powerful male 207 00:12:41.428 --> 00:12:45.000 counterparts, finding it quite difficult to 208 00:12:45.150 --> 00:12:48.856 stand up and just say, actually, I think that John could 209 00:12:48.878 --> 00:12:52.492 take the minutes or Mohammed can take the minutes or something like 210 00:12:52.546 --> 00:12:55.788 that. So I think you're absolutely 211 00:12:55.874 --> 00:12:59.392 right. The first woman on the board has to be very 212 00:12:59.446 --> 00:13:03.184 resilient, has to really be able to 213 00:13:03.222 --> 00:13:06.656 get their voice heard, has to be able to have 214 00:13:06.838 --> 00:13:10.528 that gravitas to be accepted. And of course, 215 00:13:10.694 --> 00:13:14.484 I'm lucky. I'm very, very tall. I've always been 216 00:13:14.522 --> 00:13:18.320 quite a big bird, if you like, and so therefore 217 00:13:18.400 --> 00:13:21.812 I can make my presence felt just by being in a room. But 218 00:13:21.866 --> 00:13:25.160 for those lucky women who have petite 219 00:13:26.140 --> 00:13:29.816 figures or are more quietly spoken and things like 220 00:13:29.838 --> 00:13:32.650 that, then they've got a double challenge, haven't they, now? 221 00:13:34.300 --> 00:13:37.610 Because, yeah, we talk about bias again, 222 00:13:38.400 --> 00:13:41.612 the tone of voice, the power in your voice, your 223 00:13:41.666 --> 00:13:45.484 stature, all those things add credibility to your authority, don't they? 224 00:13:45.522 --> 00:13:49.070 And if you say, if you are a woman who has 225 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:53.148 a softer voice, more considerate in the way you speak and a slighter 226 00:13:53.164 --> 00:13:56.876 frame, you're not seeing it as an alpha. And that's 227 00:13:56.908 --> 00:14:00.696 what people are looking for on boards, aren't they? Yeah. And particularly 228 00:14:00.748 --> 00:14:04.084 then, if you add to that, if they have quite an 229 00:14:04.122 --> 00:14:07.924 introverted character and they prefer to 230 00:14:07.962 --> 00:14:11.108 listen and make very good, 231 00:14:11.194 --> 00:14:15.008 succinct summaries of things as opposed to 232 00:14:15.114 --> 00:14:18.504 us extroverts who will just waffle on about anything all the time, that 233 00:14:18.542 --> 00:14:22.010 perception might then be that they're not adding as much value 234 00:14:22.540 --> 00:14:25.176 to those people who are talking 235 00:14:25.278 --> 00:14:29.096 significantly. So you're absolutely right. That's 236 00:14:29.128 --> 00:14:32.844 one of the things that I coach women quite a lot on, is that 237 00:14:32.882 --> 00:14:36.668 projection and voice, how they should look 238 00:14:36.754 --> 00:14:40.030 when they're trying to get their point heard, 239 00:14:40.560 --> 00:14:44.192 what to do if they get cut off by people, or if other people 240 00:14:44.246 --> 00:14:47.792 seem to pick up their ideas and go, yes, that's brilliant. Even though two minutes 241 00:14:47.846 --> 00:14:51.668 ago they hadn't really taken any notice of their idea. 242 00:14:51.834 --> 00:14:55.652 And it's all stuff which really they shouldn't have 243 00:14:55.706 --> 00:14:59.380 to worry about, having earned that 244 00:14:59.450 --> 00:15:03.136 place on the board. Everybody on a board, male 245 00:15:03.168 --> 00:15:06.996 or female, should be accepted for what they bring to the table 246 00:15:07.028 --> 00:15:10.856 and who they are, introverted, extroverted, et cetera. But I do 247 00:15:10.878 --> 00:15:14.552 think that women have to work extra hard to 248 00:15:14.606 --> 00:15:18.124 be able to get that hearing and get 249 00:15:18.162 --> 00:15:21.390 noticed, or people just form a perception of them. 250 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:26.270 Yeah, I suppose I come from the view that, 251 00:15:26.800 --> 00:15:30.080 rightly or wrongly, that one of the key attributes of a board 252 00:15:30.150 --> 00:15:32.960 member is gravitational presence. 253 00:15:34.020 --> 00:15:37.804 And there are many women who don't necessarily have that gravitas and presence, 254 00:15:37.852 --> 00:15:41.696 but have the capability. And we're judging people on that 255 00:15:41.718 --> 00:15:45.316 gravitas and presence rather than their insights, as you say, their 256 00:15:45.338 --> 00:15:49.152 EQ, their decision making criteria, their ability to teamwork, 257 00:15:49.216 --> 00:15:52.916 their ability to represent the voice of half the population, for 258 00:15:52.938 --> 00:15:56.730 example. We don't value those attributes, but we do value 259 00:15:57.660 --> 00:16:01.432 this bear pit type machoism of being a fight, 260 00:16:01.566 --> 00:16:05.348 your voice. And that's what we're valuing more than those softer skills, aren't 261 00:16:05.364 --> 00:16:08.844 we? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that was a really interesting thing you 262 00:16:08.882 --> 00:16:12.424 said about gravitas. I've 263 00:16:12.472 --> 00:16:16.252 coached many, many women and when we 264 00:16:16.306 --> 00:16:20.044 start the sessions, they say, my boss has 265 00:16:20.082 --> 00:16:23.776 said that coaching would be useful for me because I need to be 266 00:16:23.798 --> 00:16:27.536 more assertive and I need to have more gravitas. And I talk to 267 00:16:27.558 --> 00:16:30.930 them for a while and I think, actually 268 00:16:31.240 --> 00:16:34.884 you appear to have a good level of gravitas and 269 00:16:34.922 --> 00:16:38.676 assertion. So I'm struggling here to see 270 00:16:38.858 --> 00:16:42.452 the perspective from your boss. And then I say, or 271 00:16:42.506 --> 00:16:46.344 is it that your boss has interpreted assertion for 272 00:16:46.382 --> 00:16:50.104 aggression and therefore they 273 00:16:50.142 --> 00:16:53.896 want you to be more like them? And they think about it, and 274 00:16:53.918 --> 00:16:57.736 most times they say, yeah, thinking about it, because they're very shouty bang the table. 275 00:16:57.848 --> 00:17:01.356 And that's not how I get things done. So the 276 00:17:01.378 --> 00:17:05.020 perception might be that gravitas 277 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:08.864 equals verging onto the 278 00:17:08.902 --> 00:17:12.352 aggression. And I've worked with some 279 00:17:12.406 --> 00:17:16.032 boards, I remember one very, very clearly, and I think 280 00:17:16.086 --> 00:17:19.856 that they get habitualized into their own behaviour and 281 00:17:19.878 --> 00:17:23.312 then it's very hard for them to take an outside look 282 00:17:23.366 --> 00:17:27.156 in. And I remember once I was running a team day, the next day and 283 00:17:27.178 --> 00:17:30.976 I had dinner with this board and the HR director, who was a fairly 284 00:17:31.008 --> 00:17:34.804 quietly spoken person, and it was so full 285 00:17:34.842 --> 00:17:38.664 on and the challenges were coming, even though I just joined very 286 00:17:38.702 --> 00:17:42.424 quickly, what's your background? What do you do all over the place? And 287 00:17:42.542 --> 00:17:46.068 even as quite a strong character, I thought, whoa, this is tough. 288 00:17:46.164 --> 00:17:49.964 And I said to the HR person, are they always like this? And she 289 00:17:50.002 --> 00:17:53.788 went, what? What do you mean? And I 290 00:17:53.794 --> 00:17:57.564 think they were so habitualized to the way they spoke to each 291 00:17:57.602 --> 00:18:01.296 other and the level of noise, they couldn't see what it 292 00:18:01.318 --> 00:18:05.072 felt like for other people coming in, kind of this. 293 00:18:05.126 --> 00:18:07.650 Bombastic banter sort of thing. 294 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:14.628 Do you think beauty bias disproportionately affects women? Do you 295 00:18:14.634 --> 00:18:18.404 think that women are more successful the more 296 00:18:18.442 --> 00:18:21.940 attractive or the more feminine they are, 297 00:18:22.010 --> 00:18:25.780 but they're not valued for that femininity. They're successful. 298 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:30.344 Men want women to be attractive, but they don't want women to be attractive and 299 00:18:30.382 --> 00:18:34.184 bossy, if you like. It's kind of that double edged sword, isn't it? 300 00:18:34.302 --> 00:18:37.310 It really is truly a paradox, I think, 301 00:18:38.080 --> 00:18:41.340 when you look at diversity, 302 00:18:42.080 --> 00:18:45.550 and of course, the fact that women already 303 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:49.600 stand out by virtue of being a woman 304 00:18:50.260 --> 00:18:53.568 and then can get criticised for that look. 305 00:18:53.734 --> 00:18:57.232 And really, it's hard for them either 306 00:18:57.286 --> 00:19:00.668 way, because if they try and behave femininely, 307 00:19:00.844 --> 00:19:04.588 then people will accuse them of being too 308 00:19:04.614 --> 00:19:08.356 much that way, or trying to use their feminine charms to do things, or 309 00:19:08.378 --> 00:19:11.892 if they go the other way and try and wear suits and look very, very 310 00:19:11.946 --> 00:19:15.624 masculine, that doesn't work either. And for me, I think it's so 311 00:19:15.662 --> 00:19:19.256 important that any woman who is considering being on a 312 00:19:19.278 --> 00:19:23.064 board there is authentic. I think it's quite 313 00:19:23.102 --> 00:19:26.676 possible to be feminine and still have gravitas 314 00:19:26.868 --> 00:19:30.536 and still be there, and they've got to be who they truly 315 00:19:30.568 --> 00:19:34.152 are, because it's a hard enough job being a board member 316 00:19:34.296 --> 00:19:37.852 without having to try and pretend to be something that's not really 317 00:19:37.906 --> 00:19:41.756 you, isn't it? But I 318 00:19:41.778 --> 00:19:45.420 just think a man, say, who is a little bit rotund 319 00:19:45.500 --> 00:19:48.320 with a shirt that doesn't quite button up on the belly, 320 00:19:49.060 --> 00:19:52.876 a collar that's strangling them, red rosy 321 00:19:52.908 --> 00:19:56.128 cheeks with lots of hair coming up their nose and ears and big bushy 322 00:19:56.144 --> 00:19:59.830 eyebrows, is seen as a jolly good chap and 323 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:03.220 lots of life experience. Whereas if a woman 324 00:20:03.800 --> 00:20:07.176 wasn't kept and presenting in a very 325 00:20:07.278 --> 00:20:11.096 attractive way, that would be very negative. But to a man being a bit 326 00:20:11.118 --> 00:20:14.708 unkempt, a bit, a bit kind of not that desirable, 327 00:20:14.804 --> 00:20:18.609 if you like, it's not a problem. Men aren't judged on their beauty, are they? 328 00:20:18.609 --> 00:20:21.884 They're judged on their gravitas only. 329 00:20:22.002 --> 00:20:25.516 Yes. And certainly, if I think back over the 330 00:20:25.538 --> 00:20:29.320 years, how many slightly scruffy 331 00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:33.228 women with a tattoo, certainly with no hair 332 00:20:33.244 --> 00:20:36.828 growing out their nose. But have I seen in the boardroom, 333 00:20:37.004 --> 00:20:40.812 and I must admit, when I look at the board members that I've coached and 334 00:20:40.886 --> 00:20:44.292 worked with, they have generally been 335 00:20:44.346 --> 00:20:48.052 very well presented, and I suspect that's because 336 00:20:48.106 --> 00:20:51.190 they felt that they needed to be 337 00:20:52.040 --> 00:20:55.444 to do that. And actually, I'm thinking of a couple of occasions 338 00:20:55.572 --> 00:20:59.000 where I've coached people and their bosses have told 339 00:20:59.150 --> 00:21:02.920 them, or even me, that they needed to think about their 340 00:21:02.990 --> 00:21:06.344 dress sense and the way that they 341 00:21:06.382 --> 00:21:10.140 dressed. And those bosses have been women as well, 342 00:21:10.290 --> 00:21:14.076 which has been quite shocking. Who said they need to change the 343 00:21:14.098 --> 00:21:17.676 way they dress or maybe even dress more femininely? So 344 00:21:17.778 --> 00:21:21.250 it's not always the men that 345 00:21:21.700 --> 00:21:24.240 cause women to change their appearance, 346 00:21:25.300 --> 00:21:28.976 for sure. To be fair to men, though, if you look at some of 347 00:21:28.998 --> 00:21:32.588 the very visible public male leaders, 348 00:21:32.684 --> 00:21:36.432 most of them are, well, they understand their own personal brand, 349 00:21:36.496 --> 00:21:40.084 the value of looking smart, and their appearance does 350 00:21:40.122 --> 00:21:43.408 matter. So I guess men are starting to do that. Maybe not our current prime 351 00:21:43.424 --> 00:21:46.790 minister, that. Was just going through my mind when you said that. 352 00:21:47.500 --> 00:21:50.570 But then if you look at Rishi Sunak, you would say, absolutely. 353 00:21:51.580 --> 00:21:55.384 Yeah. So men do understand about the necessity for personal 354 00:21:55.422 --> 00:21:58.980 brand being groomed. So I think we're probably evening up the 355 00:21:58.990 --> 00:22:02.700 challenge now in the boardroom that both genders need to 356 00:22:02.850 --> 00:22:06.344 have this professional brand image, be ready to be on camera 357 00:22:06.392 --> 00:22:09.630 anytime sort of thing. So I kind of think it's only fair. 358 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:13.648 We're talking just before we got online about one of the challenges women in their 359 00:22:13.654 --> 00:22:17.184 50s face, which is, as we talked about, the M 360 00:22:17.222 --> 00:22:21.008 word, and that is right at the time where women are looking to 361 00:22:21.014 --> 00:22:24.308 be successful in the boardroom, in the senior part of their career, and 362 00:22:24.394 --> 00:22:28.212 menopause is right in the middle of their life. How do you help women 363 00:22:28.266 --> 00:22:32.116 with that? Well, there is so much help that I 364 00:22:32.138 --> 00:22:35.832 think women need with the menopause, and the first one 365 00:22:35.886 --> 00:22:39.370 is to be able to talk about it, because 366 00:22:39.740 --> 00:22:43.352 it's only really been in the last five years that that 367 00:22:43.406 --> 00:22:46.968 word has been allowed to be banded around. Before that, 368 00:22:47.054 --> 00:22:50.876 it was a real taboo. And I think for that reason, a lot 369 00:22:50.898 --> 00:22:54.492 of younger women even didn't really know what that was all 370 00:22:54.546 --> 00:22:57.896 about unless their mothers had told them. But it affects 371 00:22:57.928 --> 00:23:01.296 women massively in the workplace. And 372 00:23:01.478 --> 00:23:05.216 just a few things which could impact, particularly in the boardroom, is the 373 00:23:05.238 --> 00:23:08.944 lack of sleep. That might be because of night sweats and things like 374 00:23:08.982 --> 00:23:12.564 that, the losing the mind, the 375 00:23:12.602 --> 00:23:16.356 emotional fog that comes from lack of sleep and almost the 376 00:23:16.378 --> 00:23:19.812 hormones changing, the lack of self 377 00:23:19.866 --> 00:23:23.464 esteem, which comes throughout that period for many, many 378 00:23:23.502 --> 00:23:26.410 women. And because for everyone, it's different. 379 00:23:28.460 --> 00:23:31.864 And then you've got other physical symptoms as 380 00:23:31.902 --> 00:23:35.736 well, which can make it very, very difficult for them 381 00:23:35.758 --> 00:23:39.580 to feel comfortable in the workplace. And certainly 382 00:23:39.650 --> 00:23:43.132 it's something that I think all managers need to be 383 00:23:43.186 --> 00:23:46.956 prepared to talk to their women when they get to 384 00:23:46.978 --> 00:23:50.624 that age or they're having things. And let's say when we say that age as 385 00:23:50.662 --> 00:23:54.400 well. Actually, although 51 might be the average age 386 00:23:54.470 --> 00:23:58.224 for women, often it can start anytime. From age 36 387 00:23:58.262 --> 00:24:01.890 onwards, women can become perimenopausal. So 388 00:24:02.660 --> 00:24:06.436 there's a lot of things that can happen, and that could be one of 389 00:24:06.458 --> 00:24:09.972 the reasons why they perhaps don't feel as 390 00:24:10.026 --> 00:24:13.828 motivated. If they're tired all the time, they're drained, they're beginning 391 00:24:13.844 --> 00:24:17.224 to worry that they're forgetting things, they're having these hot 392 00:24:17.262 --> 00:24:20.840 flushes, they're embarrassed about it. So that really 393 00:24:20.910 --> 00:24:23.770 could impact upon, I think, 394 00:24:24.460 --> 00:24:27.612 going into the boardroom. Yeah. 395 00:24:27.666 --> 00:24:31.230 And as you're saying, there's still this stigma about 396 00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:35.836 being in your menopause. It's been a 397 00:24:35.858 --> 00:24:39.708 loss of fertility, a loss of womanhood, a loss of all these things. And 398 00:24:39.794 --> 00:24:43.408 coupled with the hormonal changes and psychological changes and the 399 00:24:43.414 --> 00:24:47.068 physical changes is a whole sense of loss of well being, loss of self, isn't 400 00:24:47.084 --> 00:24:49.330 there? You feel like you've lost your best years. 401 00:24:50.660 --> 00:24:53.924