WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.060 --> 00:00:08.868 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host 2 00:00:08.964 --> 00:00:12.696 for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I 3 00:00:12.718 --> 00:00:16.452 will be interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation 4 00:00:16.516 --> 00:00:20.344 around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world 5 00:00:20.382 --> 00:00:24.168 a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me 6 00:00:24.174 --> 00:00:26.992 in the future, then please do drop me a line to 7 00:00:27.086 --> 00:00:30.604 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's 8 00:00:30.652 --> 00:00:33.600 S-E-E Change Happen do Co dot UK. You'll be 9 00:00:34.260 --> 00:00:38.064 able to catch up with all of the shows and back episodes on iTunes, Spotify 10 00:00:38.102 --> 00:00:41.776 and the usual places. So plug 11 00:00:41.808 --> 00:00:45.332 in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get 12 00:00:45.386 --> 00:00:48.864 going. Today is episode 13 00:00:48.912 --> 00:00:52.724 16 with the title why isn't our 14 00:00:52.762 --> 00:00:56.568 public transport network accessible for all? And I have 15 00:00:56.574 --> 00:01:00.360 the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Andy Barrow. 16 00:01:00.940 --> 00:01:04.372 Andy and I are both members of the Professional Speaking 17 00:01:04.446 --> 00:01:08.124 association and have met virtually a number of times over the past few 18 00:01:08.162 --> 00:01:11.928 years. Andy describes himself as an accessibility 19 00:01:12.024 --> 00:01:15.500 consultant for Southeastern Railway. He uses its 20 00:01:15.570 --> 00:01:19.104 expertise in teams and from his previous career as an 21 00:01:19.142 --> 00:01:22.544 international athlete and his experience as a world 22 00:01:22.582 --> 00:01:26.240 traveller to improve the processes and culture around 23 00:01:26.310 --> 00:01:29.876 assisted travel. I asked Andy to 24 00:01:29.898 --> 00:01:33.380 describe his superpower and he said, getting 25 00:01:33.450 --> 00:01:36.496 groups of individuals to recognise each other's 26 00:01:36.528 --> 00:01:40.324 superpowers and to work together to maximise their 27 00:01:40.362 --> 00:01:43.690 combined powers. Sounds interesting. 28 00:01:44.140 --> 00:01:47.556 Hello, Andy. Welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne. 29 00:01:47.588 --> 00:01:51.224 Fantastic to be here. It's very hot out. So looking 30 00:01:51.262 --> 00:01:55.108 forward to getting out in the sun after we've chatted. Oh, yeah. It's 31 00:01:55.124 --> 00:01:58.904 a record breaking few days, middle of early August, isn't it? Well, yeah, early August. 32 00:01:58.952 --> 00:02:02.430 Still early August. Yeah, it's lovely. It's been a beautiful 33 00:02:02.960 --> 00:02:06.796 summer all round, especially with the COVID backdrop. The weather we've had has given us 34 00:02:06.818 --> 00:02:10.156 the opportunity to be out and about if we're 35 00:02:10.188 --> 00:02:14.016 responsible and enjoy that, I 36 00:02:14.038 --> 00:02:17.570 agree completely. So tell me, 37 00:02:18.020 --> 00:02:21.832 why don't you feel that our public transport network is accessible 38 00:02:21.916 --> 00:02:25.476 for all and what can we do? It's an interesting 39 00:02:25.578 --> 00:02:29.392 question. I think, firstly, I want to answer it by kind of splitting 40 00:02:29.536 --> 00:02:33.236 or at least caveatting sort of public transport. I 41 00:02:33.258 --> 00:02:36.968 think as a wheelchair user, as a person who's used a 42 00:02:36.974 --> 00:02:40.824 wheelchair for a long time now, well over 20 years, I've been 43 00:02:40.862 --> 00:02:44.296 very lucky to sort of travel all over the place and sort of understand the 44 00:02:44.318 --> 00:02:47.996 landscape a little bit. And there's certain aspects of the 45 00:02:48.018 --> 00:02:51.132 public transport system that are going to be very hard to make 46 00:02:51.266 --> 00:02:54.956 physically accessible. If you take something like the 47 00:02:54.978 --> 00:02:57.420 tube, for example, is a victorian invention, 48 00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:01.976 it's going to be almost impossible to drop lift 49 00:03:02.008 --> 00:03:05.744 shafts into the kind of. If you imagine the tunnels under 50 00:03:05.782 --> 00:03:08.636 London as a ball of wall, if you're going to thread that needle with lift 51 00:03:08.668 --> 00:03:12.324 shafts, that's going to be very difficult. So what we're having to 52 00:03:12.362 --> 00:03:15.700 look at is accessibility through assistance. 53 00:03:16.760 --> 00:03:20.470 So to answer your question through that prism at the moment, 54 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:24.728 there's two reasons, and that is that the 55 00:03:24.894 --> 00:03:28.376 processes don't always give the staff trying to assist the 56 00:03:28.398 --> 00:03:31.944 passengers the best possible chance of giving each 57 00:03:31.982 --> 00:03:35.692 passenger the assistance they need. And the second 58 00:03:35.746 --> 00:03:39.356 part is the culture. And that's basically the crux of 59 00:03:39.378 --> 00:03:42.812 that is perhaps the organisations or the staff not 60 00:03:42.866 --> 00:03:46.572 fully understanding the importance of 61 00:03:46.626 --> 00:03:50.464 people being able to have these assistance measures in order to 62 00:03:50.502 --> 00:03:52.720 travel and navigate the world independently. 63 00:03:54.900 --> 00:03:58.736 Completely agree. I had an epiphany probably 64 00:03:58.758 --> 00:04:02.576 a couple of years ago, because when we got onto the trains, when we got 65 00:04:02.598 --> 00:04:06.208 on the underground, there's always accessible seats near the entrance 66 00:04:06.304 --> 00:04:09.988 just by the doors, isn't there? So they're either embroidered into the seat so you 67 00:04:09.994 --> 00:04:13.824 can tell it's accessible on the tube or the stickers. Certainly. My train 68 00:04:13.882 --> 00:04:17.480 company is southwestern and it's very easy 69 00:04:17.550 --> 00:04:21.304 to see which ones are the assistance chairs. And it 70 00:04:21.342 --> 00:04:25.128 always frustrates me to see people just sitting in 71 00:04:25.134 --> 00:04:28.984 those by default, because it's the easiest chair. Okay, I'm not for 1 minute 72 00:04:29.032 --> 00:04:32.428 saying I'm judging people because they may have a hidden disability. There may be a 73 00:04:32.434 --> 00:04:36.060 valid reason for sitting there, but we know often the person 74 00:04:36.130 --> 00:04:39.456 sitting there probably could sit somewhere else if they 75 00:04:39.478 --> 00:04:43.296 wished. They have options, and that puts the 76 00:04:43.318 --> 00:04:46.848 burden of responsibility onto someone with an accessibility need 77 00:04:46.934 --> 00:04:50.564 to have to ask them to move, doesn't it? And I always find that 78 00:04:50.602 --> 00:04:54.368 creates this awkwardness. It's a full train, and suddenly 79 00:04:54.464 --> 00:04:58.228 the person with an accessibility need is having to do all of the hard work 80 00:04:58.394 --> 00:05:02.068 and confront and ask, and 81 00:05:02.154 --> 00:05:05.596 why can't we? As a culture, I think in Japan they have a culture 82 00:05:05.648 --> 00:05:09.416 where those seats are never occupied by people 83 00:05:09.438 --> 00:05:13.096 who don't need them. Is a cultural thing. They wouldn't dare. We don't always have 84 00:05:13.118 --> 00:05:16.756 that culture in the UK. Do sort of. There's a certain 85 00:05:16.798 --> 00:05:20.636 politeness in other parts of the world that does dictate that. 86 00:05:20.738 --> 00:05:24.364 But then also if you look culturally at the other parts of the world, there 87 00:05:24.402 --> 00:05:28.124 are differences in attitudes toward disability there. Some of that 88 00:05:28.162 --> 00:05:31.984 is actually because people will be thinking, well, I don't want people 89 00:05:32.022 --> 00:05:35.776 to think I'm disabled, not for the right reasons, maybe for 90 00:05:35.798 --> 00:05:39.360 the wrong reasons, because in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with having an 91 00:05:39.430 --> 00:05:42.390 impairment or disability. I'm not going to get into the whole. 92 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:46.964 Some people don't like the term disability because they say it's the physical world 93 00:05:47.002 --> 00:05:50.790 that disables us. I'm impaired. Disability implies I'm less than. 94 00:05:51.960 --> 00:05:55.592 For me, that's semantic, but some people don't like the idea 95 00:05:55.646 --> 00:05:59.450 that they might be seen as having a disability for that reason. 96 00:06:00.540 --> 00:06:04.264 So I think it's a difficult one. 97 00:06:04.302 --> 00:06:07.916 But I totally get your point of having to be the 98 00:06:07.938 --> 00:06:11.420 person, to have the confrontation, to have the awkward conversation. 99 00:06:11.760 --> 00:06:15.532 That's a really difficult one. An easy example as well 100 00:06:15.586 --> 00:06:19.404 would be something. I don't take the bus as often, 101 00:06:19.442 --> 00:06:21.824 but I do take the bus. And if you have ever got on a bus, 102 00:06:21.862 --> 00:06:25.568 you will see the signs that say there's normally one space for a 103 00:06:25.574 --> 00:06:29.104 wheelchair and it's wheelchairs or 104 00:06:29.142 --> 00:06:32.864 buggies, and the sign just says, wheelchairs take precedent 105 00:06:32.912 --> 00:06:36.756 over buggies, essentially, and you're expected to 106 00:06:36.778 --> 00:06:40.468 have that fight. So, in theory, if I got on a 107 00:06:40.474 --> 00:06:44.280 bus and there was a young single 108 00:06:44.350 --> 00:06:47.848 parent there, and she or he had, 109 00:06:47.934 --> 00:06:51.764 say, two young kids in a buggy, a further 110 00:06:51.812 --> 00:06:55.308 baby in arms, I could actually get there and go, move, get out of the 111 00:06:55.314 --> 00:06:58.990 way, sort that out, fold the buggy up, do something. And for me, 112 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:02.590 that's kind of not right. 113 00:07:03.840 --> 00:07:07.564 So we're expected to have that argument. And sometimes the rules are so 114 00:07:07.602 --> 00:07:10.784 rigid that it will be one or the other. I've seen people have to get 115 00:07:10.822 --> 00:07:14.496 off the bus for that, rather than just kind of sorting it 116 00:07:14.518 --> 00:07:17.964 out with the driver's help. And sometimes the driver 117 00:07:18.012 --> 00:07:21.784 abdicates responsibility. That's for a whole other set of reasons. 118 00:07:21.852 --> 00:07:24.932 I'm sure the driver, he or she is kind of 119 00:07:24.986 --> 00:07:28.804 pilloried all day, every day with 120 00:07:28.842 --> 00:07:32.260 that thing. But the point is, it's left in the middle for people to sort 121 00:07:32.330 --> 00:07:36.004 out, and we don't really yet have those 122 00:07:36.042 --> 00:07:38.936 tools to do that. And part of the reason I do this is so that 123 00:07:38.958 --> 00:07:42.696 we can all talk to each other and not be scared about saying the 124 00:07:42.718 --> 00:07:46.220 wrong thing or asking why people 125 00:07:46.290 --> 00:07:50.124 need certain things. Yeah, I think that's important 126 00:07:50.162 --> 00:07:53.644 to remember that the. The driver, the 127 00:07:53.682 --> 00:07:57.516 passenger safety representative, however they're described, they get a lot 128 00:07:57.538 --> 00:08:00.690 of stick by a lot of people and a lot of conflicting priorities. So 129 00:08:01.140 --> 00:08:04.896 I certainly wouldn't want to cast any doubt in their 130 00:08:04.918 --> 00:08:08.656 professionalism. But I've travelled with a 131 00:08:08.678 --> 00:08:12.076 friend of mine who uses a wheelchair, it's a powered 132 00:08:12.108 --> 00:08:15.756 wheelchair on London buses all 133 00:08:15.798 --> 00:08:18.804 around London, and I've seen the challenges she 134 00:08:18.842 --> 00:08:22.020 experiences, one getting the driver's attention. 135 00:08:22.760 --> 00:08:26.436 She's had bites. Just drive off, leave them on the curb without spotting 136 00:08:26.468 --> 00:08:29.816 her. Then there's the often she'll end up with 137 00:08:29.838 --> 00:08:31.690 this driver who 138 00:08:33.580 --> 00:08:37.096 I was going to say, grumpy kind of. You feel there's a big grudging. This 139 00:08:37.118 --> 00:08:40.910 is impacting his schedule, putting behind time, 140 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:45.084 having to get out the bus, lower the ramp, allow my 141 00:08:45.122 --> 00:08:48.750 friend to get on, and then when she's on, she has to fight her way 142 00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:53.016 between the people who are there. It's quite crowded. And then sometimes the driver 143 00:08:53.048 --> 00:08:56.816 will say, next time, would you mind reversing in because it's easier then, 144 00:08:56.918 --> 00:09:00.668 or easier for who? Often we're 145 00:09:00.684 --> 00:09:03.876 designing these things for easier for everybody else, not easier for the person who has 146 00:09:03.898 --> 00:09:07.600 the disability or the accessibility needs. And just having spent 147 00:09:07.760 --> 00:09:11.456 many, many journeys with her using public transport, I've 148 00:09:11.488 --> 00:09:14.900 got a lot more empathy for the needs of accessible 149 00:09:14.980 --> 00:09:18.584 transport for people. And 150 00:09:18.782 --> 00:09:22.424 not everybody has the luxury of a powered wheelchair. We've got 151 00:09:22.462 --> 00:09:26.088 people using manual driven wheelchairs or 152 00:09:26.174 --> 00:09:29.996 manual push with their arms and not everybody has a 153 00:09:30.018 --> 00:09:33.868 personal assistant or a carer with them. And there's always this assumption that if 154 00:09:33.874 --> 00:09:37.676 you have a disability, you're going to have someone with 155 00:09:37.698 --> 00:09:40.848 you to help. But that's not the case, is it? No, it certainly isn't the 156 00:09:40.854 --> 00:09:44.208 case. And this whole idea of public 157 00:09:44.294 --> 00:09:48.016 confidence in travelling, a lot of the reason I 158 00:09:48.038 --> 00:09:51.776 do what I do is I've been very lucky, I've been very privileged to 159 00:09:51.798 --> 00:09:55.168 have. Just the way the chips fell for me. I had an accident that changed 160 00:09:55.184 --> 00:09:58.724 my life at 17, but then I got into 161 00:09:58.762 --> 00:10:01.716 sport and sport took me all over the place and it gave me a lot 162 00:10:01.738 --> 00:10:05.576 of confidence. And to use the word epiphany is a good word, 163 00:10:05.678 --> 00:10:07.690 I sort of realised a few years ago, 164 00:10:09.500 --> 00:10:13.320 okay, I'm helping myself, but I am helping other people 165 00:10:13.390 --> 00:10:16.872 as well, because for every person like me who maybe 166 00:10:16.926 --> 00:10:20.220 encounters a negative travel experience, gets a little bit 167 00:10:20.290 --> 00:10:24.092 annoyed, gets a bit angry, makes some phone calls, is a bit dogged about, 168 00:10:24.146 --> 00:10:27.756 it has the articulation, the education to maybe fire off a 169 00:10:27.778 --> 00:10:30.450 letter, argue the toss with the powers that be. 170 00:10:31.540 --> 00:10:34.690 There are many other people who just don't have the time, 171 00:10:35.540 --> 00:10:39.288 are not able to put that stuff together and remain 172 00:10:39.404 --> 00:10:42.436 emotionally, even while they're kind of 173 00:10:42.458 --> 00:10:46.276 delivering their grievance and lack the 174 00:10:46.298 --> 00:10:49.956 confidence to either use the surface again, and worst of all, 175 00:10:49.978 --> 00:10:51.300 think it's their fault. 176 00:10:54.540 --> 00:10:58.232 When I have some kind of negative travel experience, always put myself 177 00:10:58.286 --> 00:11:01.768 in the position of the person. My imagined person, 178 00:11:01.934 --> 00:11:05.624 who maybe doesn't get out very often, has 179 00:11:05.662 --> 00:11:09.428 been building themselves up to make this trip, because either they are anxious about 180 00:11:09.454 --> 00:11:12.892 it or they're excited about it for a long time. And when it goes 181 00:11:12.946 --> 00:11:16.716 wrong, they kind of almost go home with their tail between their legs and are 182 00:11:16.738 --> 00:11:20.348 really sad about it and take some time to get over that and think it's 183 00:11:20.364 --> 00:11:23.920 their fault. And that's kind of why I 184 00:11:23.990 --> 00:11:26.850 do what I do, because I can. 185 00:11:28.100 --> 00:11:31.456 I can kind of have these arguments, hopefully on behalf of people. I don't want 186 00:11:31.478 --> 00:11:35.076 that to sound martyrish, but I feel like if you're in a position where 187 00:11:35.098 --> 00:11:38.070 you're okay, then you try to help other 188 00:11:38.920 --> 00:11:42.516 also, you know, for example, I'm lucky I have a 189 00:11:42.538 --> 00:11:46.376 car. I could just get annoyed. Get in my car. If I get 190 00:11:46.398 --> 00:11:49.704 really annoyed, I could just get on Uber and get a taxi and go home. 191 00:11:49.742 --> 00:11:52.760 And some people don't have any of those facilities 192 00:11:53.740 --> 00:11:57.212 in my wheelchair. I have a tiny wheelchair. It weighs about twelve 193 00:11:57.266 --> 00:12:01.036 kilogrammes. It breaks down very small. I can pretty much get in 194 00:12:01.058 --> 00:12:04.648 any car. I don't need ramped access in a car. Whereas 195 00:12:04.744 --> 00:12:08.476 I suspect your friend that you mentioned as an 196 00:12:08.498 --> 00:12:12.272 example would need a taxi with ramp access. And that has its own issues. 197 00:12:12.326 --> 00:12:16.064 A car of a certain size. So it all swings around 198 00:12:16.102 --> 00:12:19.676 about. So we all have pluses and minuses. But I just feel like I'm 199 00:12:19.788 --> 00:12:23.236 kind of very lucky on this front, and I need to speak up for 200 00:12:23.258 --> 00:12:26.676 people who aren't as lucky but also 201 00:12:26.778 --> 00:12:30.564 have the perspective to be able to play both sides on this. 202 00:12:30.602 --> 00:12:33.860 To your point of drivers and staff 203 00:12:34.020 --> 00:12:37.704 who sometimes get abused for just trying to do their 204 00:12:37.742 --> 00:12:41.450 job. My friend's been 205 00:12:42.140 --> 00:12:45.804 on a train, and when she gets to say she wants to get off 206 00:12:45.842 --> 00:12:49.608 at, there's nobody available to help her with the ramp. 207 00:12:49.784 --> 00:12:53.404 So then the train just basically closed the doors and 208 00:12:53.442 --> 00:12:57.276 goes off. So she's now effectively being held prisoner by 209 00:12:57.298 --> 00:13:00.636 the train company, transported somewhere she doesn't want to be 210 00:13:00.818 --> 00:13:03.856 and has to have that argument. She doesn't want to have that argument. She wants 211 00:13:03.878 --> 00:13:07.168 to go home, see? Wants to have her tea. Now she's in a situation 212 00:13:07.254 --> 00:13:10.416 where she now has to get angry. She has to get upset. She has to 213 00:13:10.438 --> 00:13:14.020 start talking to people. And it's again and again and again. 214 00:13:14.170 --> 00:13:17.604 I'm not sure how often it happens, but probably several times a year this has 215 00:13:17.642 --> 00:13:18.630 happened to her. Yeah. 216 00:13:21.160 --> 00:13:24.872 It's hard to explain that frustration. It's also hard 217 00:13:24.926 --> 00:13:28.344 to explain that anxiety that something 218 00:13:28.462 --> 00:13:31.400 may happen. It's hard to physically 219 00:13:31.980 --> 00:13:33.450 quantify that. 220 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:39.116 Everyone that's in a minority will have a. Have a similar thing. You 221 00:13:39.138 --> 00:13:42.892 know, whether it's you know, you know, a consequence of. Of their colour, 222 00:13:42.946 --> 00:13:46.696 a consequence of their gender. You know, everyone will have that understanding 223 00:13:46.728 --> 00:13:50.380 who's not in the absolute majority. You know, what's. What's interesting 224 00:13:50.450 --> 00:13:53.648 for me is looking wider at diversity, but for the fact that I happen to 225 00:13:53.654 --> 00:13:57.504 break my neck when I was 17, I'd be the absolute majority. I'm sort of 226 00:13:57.542 --> 00:14:01.376 white, western male, 40 years old. And so it has given 227 00:14:01.398 --> 00:14:05.152 me a different perspective. It's opened me up to a lot of different 228 00:14:05.286 --> 00:14:09.024 communities to understand that. But back to 229 00:14:09.062 --> 00:14:12.872 the transport. Yeah, that anxiety, I feel that 230 00:14:12.926 --> 00:14:16.772 as somebody who I think is pretty confident, 231 00:14:16.916 --> 00:14:19.128 and you have that idea of, what am I going to do here? How am 232 00:14:19.134 --> 00:14:21.464 I going to get round this? And it's not a case of I can't travel, 233 00:14:21.502 --> 00:14:23.544 it's a case of, right, I'm going to have to get some people to break 234 00:14:23.582 --> 00:14:27.256 the rules, I'm going to have to enlist unsolicited help. 235 00:14:27.438 --> 00:14:30.716 So I'm looking around for the platform for a couple of people who might be 236 00:14:30.738 --> 00:14:34.172 strong enough to lift me onto the train, knowing full well 237 00:14:34.226 --> 00:14:37.804 that, what station am I going to? Is it a through station? By that I 238 00:14:37.842 --> 00:14:41.476 mean is it a station where the train isn't terminating 239 00:14:41.528 --> 00:14:45.088 there? So I have a finite amount of time to get my arm out of 240 00:14:45.094 --> 00:14:48.464 the door and stuff like that. The reason I work at 241 00:14:48.502 --> 00:14:51.844 Southeastern is so this doesn't happen and so we can 242 00:14:51.882 --> 00:14:55.716 hopefully all turn up and travel as 243 00:14:55.738 --> 00:14:59.076 and how we want. Mistakes are always going to 244 00:14:59.098 --> 00:15:02.916 happen, but for me also is how 245 00:15:02.938 --> 00:15:06.250 those mistakes are dealt with. And I think a big frustration for 246 00:15:07.180 --> 00:15:10.856 people with disabilities on public transport is just the time that it 247 00:15:10.878 --> 00:15:14.564 takes for you. Your friend, okay, she misses 248 00:15:14.612 --> 00:15:18.296 her stop. It's a pain, all right? But if it was 249 00:15:18.318 --> 00:15:21.176 one stop and you got back straight on the next train and it was ten 250 00:15:21.198 --> 00:15:23.704 minutes and you were done, you'd be like, all right, well, that was a pain, 251 00:15:23.742 --> 00:15:26.776 but it was done a bit like, I don't know, forgetting where you parked or 252 00:15:26.798 --> 00:15:30.210 something like that, but it's when it mounts up 253 00:15:30.660 --> 00:15:33.970 and it's those time costs taken out of your day 254 00:15:34.500 --> 00:15:38.192 every single day, every single week, every single 255 00:15:38.246 --> 00:15:41.924 month, every single year. I think there was a really interesting article a few 256 00:15:41.962 --> 00:15:45.668 months back that likened having sort 257 00:15:45.674 --> 00:15:48.310 of a severe disability to 258 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:52.772 having a job that equated to about 30 hours a week 259 00:15:52.826 --> 00:15:56.250 in terms of your time cost just to live. 260 00:15:57.740 --> 00:16:01.224 That's not even transport. That's things like just getting yourself dressed and stuff like 261 00:16:01.262 --> 00:16:04.824 that. And again, you want to be able to get all this 262 00:16:04.862 --> 00:16:07.610 across without martyring too much. 263 00:16:08.380 --> 00:16:12.136 That's always my angle as a person in a minority, because I'm a firm 264 00:16:12.168 --> 00:16:15.784 believer that you need to represent your minority 265 00:16:15.832 --> 00:16:19.516 and whether you like it or not, you're an ambassador for it. So the 266 00:16:19.538 --> 00:16:23.376 bitter disabled guy is a really bad look. Can I 267 00:16:23.398 --> 00:16:27.104 help you, sir? No, piss off. Why would you ask me for help? 268 00:16:27.222 --> 00:16:30.710 Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Because the next person may need help. 269 00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:35.844 It's interesting you mentioned this martyrdom and the 270 00:16:35.882 --> 00:16:39.732 angry minority. Here we go again. The angry minorities trying 271 00:16:39.786 --> 00:16:43.524 to break the privilege wall down again. And all that happens 272 00:16:43.562 --> 00:16:46.852 is the armour goes up, doesn't it? The armour, the deflection, the water 273 00:16:46.906 --> 00:16:50.628 bowery, the kind of, oh, come on, don't be a snowflake. It's 274 00:16:50.644 --> 00:16:54.010 not that bad, really, just a little thing. 275 00:16:54.780 --> 00:16:58.588 As you're talking. I'm thinking about the guy on the plane, the one that 276 00:16:58.754 --> 00:17:02.284 his wheelchair wasn't delivered to the gate or was 277 00:17:02.322 --> 00:17:05.836 lost, and they offered him a 278 00:17:05.858 --> 00:17:09.676 pushed or an assistance wheelchair and 279 00:17:09.698 --> 00:17:13.184 he said, no, that's making me disabled. I want choice, I want 280 00:17:13.222 --> 00:17:16.450 advocacy. What's your take on that? No, absolutely. 281 00:17:19.380 --> 00:17:22.828 He's completely right. And I encountered that before I worked on the 282 00:17:22.854 --> 00:17:26.484 trains. Aviation was where I learned, as an athlete, you travel around 283 00:17:26.522 --> 00:17:30.308 in large groups, okay? So you have support staff. I understand 284 00:17:30.474 --> 00:17:33.968 mistakes are going to happen. If you're travelling as a twelve person squad. 285 00:17:34.064 --> 00:17:37.496 Each person has two wheelchairs. That's 24 wheelchairs. Things are going to 286 00:17:37.518 --> 00:17:41.096 happen. But if you're travelling on your own and your chair doesn't get brought to 287 00:17:41.118 --> 00:17:44.804 you, that is massively disempowering and it's 288 00:17:44.852 --> 00:17:48.604 embarrassing and insulting because you're sat there. You're like, I 289 00:17:48.642 --> 00:17:52.076 am a world class athlete and I don't know 290 00:17:52.098 --> 00:17:55.656 whether there's a couple of instances. It happened famously to Frank 291 00:17:55.688 --> 00:17:59.136 Gardner, didn't he, as the BBC correspondent? But it also happened to another guy who 292 00:17:59.158 --> 00:18:02.160 actually dragged himself through the airport. 293 00:18:02.820 --> 00:18:06.444 And I've met him, he's a lovely guy, he's a wheelchair racer. He's 294 00:18:06.492 --> 00:18:10.112 absolutely huge as well. So he's built like the 295 00:18:10.166 --> 00:18:13.924 proverbial. And he was in a situation where he could drag himself through 296 00:18:13.962 --> 00:18:16.820 the airport. But even as a full time athlete, 297 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:21.296 when I was, I'm sort of much more severely disabled than him. So that wasn't 298 00:18:21.328 --> 00:18:25.096 available to me. But it's like, you're not going to demean someone of 299 00:18:25.118 --> 00:18:28.644 our strength, confidence and power by saying, we're going to push 300 00:18:28.692 --> 00:18:32.344 you through the airport. That's not the way we 301 00:18:32.382 --> 00:18:36.204 want assistance to work. We want to be empowered to be independent as 302 00:18:36.242 --> 00:18:40.044 individuals. And I've taken much more 303 00:18:40.242 --> 00:18:43.644 in recent years in aviation of having that 304 00:18:43.682 --> 00:18:47.436 conversation. But then I know my point of power. I know that if I 305 00:18:47.458 --> 00:18:51.264 remain in my seat on the plane, I know exactly how much that costs the 306 00:18:51.302 --> 00:18:55.072 airline every single minute that plane is delayed. But often 307 00:18:55.126 --> 00:18:58.432 the airlines get unfairly blamed for it because most 308 00:18:58.486 --> 00:19:01.510 airports actually contract assistant services 309 00:19:02.040 --> 00:19:05.856 to an organisation that does it across the airport. 310 00:19:05.968 --> 00:19:09.444 So there are all these different dynamics at 311 00:19:09.482 --> 00:19:13.308 play. But I find if you kind of remain polite 312 00:19:13.344 --> 00:19:17.096 and just talk about, say, look, this is the 313 00:19:17.118 --> 00:19:20.836 situation, I'm not going to change until you bring my chair 314 00:19:20.868 --> 00:19:24.584 back. There's no problem. I don't mind the mistake, I'm just 315 00:19:24.622 --> 00:19:28.136 looking for resolution. I'm not even too fast. 316 00:19:28.318 --> 00:19:31.756 Swift resolution isn't nice to have, but I know it's hurting you more than 317 00:19:31.778 --> 00:19:35.484 me, but can we just move you into a corridor? No, you can't, because 318 00:19:35.522 --> 00:19:39.324 then you're going to forget about me. And it's just having those conversations about 319 00:19:39.362 --> 00:19:43.104 when people will take your wheelchair from you. And the idea of that as 320 00:19:43.142 --> 00:19:46.592 well, the idea of what a wheelchair is, and it's not just a wheelchair, is 321 00:19:46.646 --> 00:19:50.064 so much more. It's very cliche to say it's your 322 00:19:50.102 --> 00:19:53.472 legs, but the simple fact of it is 323 00:19:53.606 --> 00:19:56.450 that without the specific wheelchair I use, 324 00:19:57.860 --> 00:20:01.312 I'd be way less independent. We'll go back to your friend 325 00:20:01.366 --> 00:20:04.916 again. If you put her in my wheelchair, it sounds like, as a power chair 326 00:20:04.948 --> 00:20:08.056 user, she'd barely be able to push it. It's no use to her, it's a 327 00:20:08.078 --> 00:20:11.816 piece of junk to her. Me sitting in her wheelchair would be 328 00:20:11.838 --> 00:20:14.248 no more than me going, oh, this is kind of fun. This is a bit 329 00:20:14.254 --> 00:20:17.512 of a toy, but I don't need it. I can't drive it like you can. 330 00:20:17.566 --> 00:20:20.796 Probably going to crash it into everything, break something off it and break someone in 331 00:20:20.818 --> 00:20:24.264 the process. These things are bespoke to us. We can't 332 00:20:24.312 --> 00:20:27.848 just change out of them. It's massively important. 333 00:20:27.954 --> 00:20:31.564 I mean, a good example would be, why don't you just wear someone else's 334 00:20:31.612 --> 00:20:32.960 glasses? Joanne? 335 00:20:34.980 --> 00:20:38.736 Yeah, completely. One thing to say, and I talk 336 00:20:38.758 --> 00:20:42.508 about this a lot, it's about. It's recognising that 337 00:20:42.534 --> 00:20:46.292 you should have a plan a, but also knowing that plan a 338 00:20:46.346 --> 00:20:49.812 doesn't always work. You don't get everything right first time and we all 339 00:20:49.866 --> 00:20:53.620 accept that things go wrong. What I say to people, an organisation 340 00:20:53.700 --> 00:20:57.224 should be judged by its plan b when it goes wrong, 341 00:20:57.342 --> 00:21:01.000 how do they step up? How do they put themselves out there 342 00:21:01.070 --> 00:21:04.904 and say, sorry, Andy, this isn't right 343 00:21:04.942 --> 00:21:08.788 for you. Come to you and say, what can 344 00:21:08.814 --> 00:21:12.364 we do to make this work for you? You say, thank you so much for 345 00:21:12.402 --> 00:21:15.724 asking. This is how I think we could solve the problem. But 346 00:21:15.762 --> 00:21:19.308 organisations trying to give you this one size fits all solution 347 00:21:19.484 --> 00:21:23.232 based on their perception of you without ever 348 00:21:23.286 --> 00:21:26.976 involving you and giving you agency about the decisions, because I 349 00:21:26.998 --> 00:21:30.448 know my own personal characteristic. If someone says to me, 350 00:21:30.534 --> 00:21:34.244 Joe, Joanne, what is going to make you happy in this 351 00:21:34.282 --> 00:21:37.396 scenario? Now I'll say, this is what's going to make me happy. This is how 352 00:21:37.418 --> 00:21:40.996 we can get out of it. Thank you for asking. I really 353 00:21:41.098 --> 00:21:44.632 feel so empowered again. And that must be the same for you. 354 00:21:44.766 --> 00:21:48.484 What's the plan b? Isn't it? Yes, definitely. We're back to our equality versus 355 00:21:48.532 --> 00:21:51.816 equity, aren't we? What is your ideal customer 356 00:21:51.998 --> 00:21:55.612 service experience? Somebody with the exact same 357 00:21:55.666 --> 00:21:59.516 disability as me may have a drastically different outlook on the world and that is 358 00:21:59.538 --> 00:22:03.228 to be respected, I guess, within the 359 00:22:03.234 --> 00:22:04.460 bounds of safety. 360 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:10.370 It's a really interesting point, and it was funny that actually, I 361 00:22:10.740 --> 00:22:14.464 have to say, for Southeastern, the reason I'm now 362 00:22:14.502 --> 00:22:18.336 a consultant with them is because I had a bad experience with 363 00:22:18.358 --> 00:22:21.536 them in the beginning and I wasn't happy with the way it was dealt with. 364 00:22:21.638 --> 00:22:25.236 But when we broke it down and I got in and I spoke to some 365 00:22:25.258 --> 00:22:28.852 people face to face, I said, look, I think I can help. And they 366 00:22:28.906 --> 00:22:31.110 listened. So credit to them. So 367 00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:36.484 if I were to take that in a snapshot of a 24 hours 368 00:22:36.522 --> 00:22:40.248 period, it'd be like, oh, man, that was awful. Travel experience. If I take it 369 00:22:40.254 --> 00:22:43.256 in a snapshot of a two year period, I was like, wow. They listened to 370 00:22:43.278 --> 00:22:47.052 the point where they're now allowing and empowering me to try and help 371 00:22:47.186 --> 00:22:50.508 their staff make life better for other 372 00:22:50.674 --> 00:22:54.124 people with disabilities that use the network. So that plan 373 00:22:54.162 --> 00:22:57.810 B is an excellent point. Yeah. 374 00:22:58.420 --> 00:23:01.600 I genuinely believe that most organisations 375 00:23:02.500 --> 00:23:06.236 want to do the right thing. They believe they're 376 00:23:06.268 --> 00:23:09.424 doing the right thing. There's this corporate belief that we've got our 377 00:23:09.462 --> 00:23:13.156 policies, we've got people who will deal with this, we've got 378 00:23:13.178 --> 00:23:16.436 our customer service team who are person centric. All these good words. 379 00:23:16.618 --> 00:23:20.212 And I do believe that most big, large companies do set 380 00:23:20.266 --> 00:23:24.028 out with the right intentions. But what tends to happen is like this chinese 381 00:23:24.064 --> 00:23:27.576 whispers of intent. It gets dissolved down the 382 00:23:27.598 --> 00:23:31.320 chain and often it comes down to the one person 383 00:23:31.390 --> 00:23:34.876 you deal with, and that person has the power of influence on making your 384 00:23:34.898 --> 00:23:38.652 experience fantastic or poor. And it's almost 385 00:23:38.706 --> 00:23:41.150 like impossible for a company to predict that. 386 00:23:43.120 --> 00:23:46.430 What's your advice to companies in trying to make sure that 387 00:23:47.280 --> 00:23:50.336 the company culture really does permeate right down to the 388 00:23:50.358 --> 00:23:54.016 individuals on the floor? I think it's a really tough one. I 389 00:23:54.038 --> 00:23:57.776 normally refer back to my kind of sporting background as well. You have to 390 00:23:57.798 --> 00:24:01.380 look first at how you treat the employees 391 00:24:02.280 --> 00:24:05.876 in the company. We're almost getting to a point of 392 00:24:06.058 --> 00:24:09.508 company culture and engagement. We're almost kind 393 00:24:09.514 --> 00:24:12.992 of switching subjects to sort of employee 394 00:24:13.056 --> 00:24:16.250 engagement and giving them the understanding of 395 00:24:16.620 --> 00:24:20.260 why is it important? Why is it important that every person with a disability 396 00:24:20.340 --> 00:24:23.876 should be able to travel? Why is it important that everyone's gender should be respected? 397 00:24:23.908 --> 00:24:27.576 Why is it important that no customer or staff 398 00:24:27.608 --> 00:24:29.580 member should be abused? 399 00:24:32.320 --> 00:24:36.056 Have a protected characteristic abused? It's 400 00:24:36.088 --> 00:24:37.760 that understanding. It's knowing 401 00:24:41.300 --> 00:24:44.796