WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.040 --> 00:00:09.704 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host 2 00:00:09.832 --> 00:00:13.436 for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be 3 00:00:13.458 --> 00:00:17.228 interviewing a number of amazing people simply having a conversation around the 4 00:00:17.234 --> 00:00:21.036 subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a 5 00:00:21.058 --> 00:00:24.796 better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, 6 00:00:24.898 --> 00:00:26.716 then please do drop me a line to 7 00:00:26.818 --> 00:00:30.688 jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 8 00:00:30.784 --> 00:00:34.100 That's S-E-E Change Happen dot Co dot UK. You'll be 9 00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:37.680 able to catch up with all of the shows on iTunes, Spotify and 10 00:00:37.760 --> 00:00:41.416 the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab 11 00:00:41.438 --> 00:00:45.112 a decaf and let's get going. Today 12 00:00:45.166 --> 00:00:48.804 it's episode 17 with 13 00:00:48.852 --> 00:00:52.120 the title leave no one behind, and 14 00:00:52.190 --> 00:00:55.752 I have the absolute honour and privilege to be 15 00:00:55.896 --> 00:00:58.860 joined by Dr. Jackie Taylor. Jackie and 16 00:00:59.440 --> 00:01:02.936 I met online in a Facebook group for professional speaking, yet 17 00:01:02.968 --> 00:01:06.384 another relationship borne out and forged by 18 00:01:06.422 --> 00:01:08.880 the coronavirus lockdown. Jackie describes 19 00:01:09.700 --> 00:01:12.956 herself as one of the hundred global leaders 2019 20 00:01:12.988 --> 00:01:16.448 and in the top ten global Internet 21 00:01:16.614 --> 00:01:20.324 of things innovators. She 22 00:01:20.362 --> 00:01:24.112 doesn't just predict the future, she engineers, it's in cutting 23 00:01:24.176 --> 00:01:27.684 edge website research. I can't wait to find out what that 24 00:01:27.722 --> 00:01:31.336 means. I asked Jackie to describe her superpower and 25 00:01:31.358 --> 00:01:34.952 she said, I build deep technology which 26 00:01:35.006 --> 00:01:37.610 unlocks inclusion outcomes for all. 27 00:01:38.860 --> 00:01:42.472 Hello, Jackie, welcome to the show. Hi, 28 00:01:42.526 --> 00:01:45.976 Jo. Delighted to be here, speaking to you today from 29 00:01:46.078 --> 00:01:49.628 somewhere outside of. Oh, brilliant. I 30 00:01:49.634 --> 00:01:53.452 hope the weather's not quite as hot and sticky as it has been all week. 31 00:01:53.586 --> 00:01:57.344 Oh, my goodness, no. Much better today. And I'm lucky to be in my 32 00:01:57.382 --> 00:02:00.912 studio, which is climate controlled, the rest of the house 33 00:02:00.966 --> 00:02:04.412 isn't, but the studio is, so I would manage normally. 34 00:02:04.476 --> 00:02:08.276 But goodness me, it's been exciting times on all 35 00:02:08.298 --> 00:02:11.876 of that rushing around or trying not to. Wow, I'm so 36 00:02:11.898 --> 00:02:15.572 jealous. Ok, Jackie, so what do you mean 37 00:02:15.626 --> 00:02:17.590 by leave no one behind? 38 00:02:19.320 --> 00:02:22.968 Well, as a web scientist, and I probably should explain 39 00:02:23.054 --> 00:02:26.680 that first, I've not always been a web scientist. My 40 00:02:26.750 --> 00:02:30.040 career started as an aerospace engineer, 41 00:02:30.380 --> 00:02:33.336 but it was disrupted quite rapidly and 42 00:02:33.358 --> 00:02:36.924 rudely with the death of my mother. So I had to take 43 00:02:36.962 --> 00:02:40.652 some time out in order to keep my family together and to 44 00:02:40.706 --> 00:02:44.476 look at how life would carry on. So I took 45 00:02:44.498 --> 00:02:48.016 a two year gap in that and reset my 46 00:02:48.038 --> 00:02:51.312 studies after that. That, I would say, 47 00:02:51.366 --> 00:02:55.104 focused my mind beyond my own bubble. I think when 48 00:02:55.142 --> 00:02:58.912 you're in your pre 20s, you tend to be 49 00:02:58.966 --> 00:03:01.830 in your own sort of bubble, and when you have 50 00:03:03.320 --> 00:03:06.884 a traumatic incident like that, it tends to expose you to the fact 51 00:03:06.922 --> 00:03:10.708 that the world doesn't always run on parallel tracks or on 52 00:03:10.714 --> 00:03:14.312 unknown tracks, essentially. When I 53 00:03:14.366 --> 00:03:17.956 qualified, I'd put together some cutting edge 54 00:03:17.988 --> 00:03:21.608 research that actually looked at solving one of the 55 00:03:21.614 --> 00:03:24.510 problems our aerospace industry had. 56 00:03:26.160 --> 00:03:29.932 It creates noise pollution for our society. And I'd worked 57 00:03:29.986 --> 00:03:33.644 with engineers to produce new jet engine technology that reduced that 58 00:03:33.682 --> 00:03:37.504 pollution. So even as an aerospace engineer, I was looking at this 59 00:03:37.542 --> 00:03:41.216 from a societal point of view, and that 60 00:03:41.238 --> 00:03:44.784 was fantastic. My dissertation gave 61 00:03:44.822 --> 00:03:48.368 birth to a brand new aircraft, and I didn't get to work on it 62 00:03:48.534 --> 00:03:51.932 because what happened there was I was female, 63 00:03:52.076 --> 00:03:55.684 and female engineers back in the day were very few and far 64 00:03:55.722 --> 00:03:59.504 between, and the client that bought the aircraft off plan was from the Middle east 65 00:03:59.552 --> 00:04:03.332 and didn't need me influencing what happened with that plane 66 00:04:03.396 --> 00:04:07.176 into the sky. So I found myself having done all this 67 00:04:07.198 --> 00:04:09.880 pioneering work with no career path. 68 00:04:10.460 --> 00:04:13.976 The MD of the aerospace company, Pilot friend of 69 00:04:13.998 --> 00:04:17.452 mine, said, what we have here is something 70 00:04:17.586 --> 00:04:21.324 quite unique. Let's look at it in a different way. I 71 00:04:21.362 --> 00:04:25.164 said, that's great. He said, so, can you just go in and sort out all 72 00:04:25.202 --> 00:04:28.944 those technologists who don't seem to do what you do? And that 73 00:04:28.982 --> 00:04:32.272 began my career as technology can be 74 00:04:32.406 --> 00:04:36.224 created, birthed, engineered. I was part of the 75 00:04:36.262 --> 00:04:39.520 initial movement to create a movement in technological software 76 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:43.444 engineering, engineers that actually said, don't build technology like 77 00:04:43.482 --> 00:04:46.980 this, build it from engineering principles. And so I 78 00:04:47.050 --> 00:04:50.464 learned over 35 years ago now 79 00:04:50.602 --> 00:04:53.930 that actually what we can do is build technology 80 00:04:54.460 --> 00:04:57.992 that includes everybody. And what that's called 81 00:04:58.046 --> 00:05:01.636 is something called deep tech, deep technology. And that's 82 00:05:01.668 --> 00:05:05.480 something very unique in the technology world. It's built 83 00:05:05.550 --> 00:05:09.292 from engineering principles about my early work in and 84 00:05:09.346 --> 00:05:13.000 career in software engineering, but it actually includes 85 00:05:13.080 --> 00:05:16.764 some major scientific advances, and that's where Web 86 00:05:16.802 --> 00:05:20.284 science came in. I'd never heard of it either. And Tim 87 00:05:20.322 --> 00:05:24.064 Berners Lee introduced me to it because he made it up. And 88 00:05:24.102 --> 00:05:27.948 so the combination of my engineering background and the 89 00:05:27.974 --> 00:05:31.408 web science, the fundamental web science I've created, 90 00:05:31.584 --> 00:05:35.184 actually underpins the inclusion agenda. 91 00:05:35.232 --> 00:05:38.884 We deliver all across the world, and that 92 00:05:38.922 --> 00:05:42.010 allows us to be able to build technology 93 00:05:42.620 --> 00:05:45.528 which is accessible and 94 00:05:45.694 --> 00:05:49.432 utilises a talent. Specifically. Originally was around 95 00:05:49.486 --> 00:05:53.164 Generation Z, they're 27 to seven today, but 96 00:05:53.202 --> 00:05:56.696 as of my speech at Davos in January 2019, 97 00:05:56.808 --> 00:06:00.456 generation Alpha, they're 16 to six. So that's 98 00:06:00.488 --> 00:06:02.110 me and that's what I do. 99 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:07.836 Wow, you just name dropped in there big 100 00:06:07.858 --> 00:06:11.564 time, didn't you? You just chucked Tim Burns in there. That's 101 00:06:11.612 --> 00:06:14.908 a bit of a powerful name drop right at the beginning of the podcast Kadush 102 00:06:15.004 --> 00:06:18.704 straight into the mean. Was 103 00:06:18.822 --> 00:06:22.564 he must have been very influential at the time, or has 104 00:06:22.762 --> 00:06:26.516 his reputation grown since you knew him? Was this 105 00:06:26.538 --> 00:06:30.196 in the early days of the web? Well, we're speaking today on a 106 00:06:30.218 --> 00:06:34.016 podcast that you're going to send out to the world. And he, 107 00:06:34.058 --> 00:06:37.816 over 30 years ago, connected two technical protocols and said, how do our 108 00:06:37.838 --> 00:06:41.240 world. And that's the reason you can do what we do. We're speaking 109 00:06:41.310 --> 00:06:44.896 remotely. That's the reason for the fabric of how our society 110 00:06:44.948 --> 00:06:48.364 is woven with the World Wide Web. But it was interesting, this 111 00:06:48.402 --> 00:06:51.724 fundamental web science, which I'm not sure whether we get into, but was 112 00:06:51.762 --> 00:06:55.528 around levelling up the opportunities 113 00:06:55.624 --> 00:06:59.232 for our young people, who at the time were 17 to seven, 114 00:06:59.366 --> 00:07:02.930 and the technology I built to leave no one behind. 115 00:07:03.380 --> 00:07:06.848 Tim said to me, he said, I found out what you've done, 116 00:07:07.014 --> 00:07:10.130 which is a scary thing. He tends to talk. 117 00:07:10.900 --> 00:07:14.084 He's very focused when he speaks. I found out what you've done. I need you 118 00:07:14.122 --> 00:07:17.764 in the Royal Society. It's the 20th anniversary of the web. We need to get 119 00:07:17.802 --> 00:07:21.588 this thing moving. So it was 120 00:07:21.594 --> 00:07:25.144 the twelveth of March 2009. And, I mean, if Tim 121 00:07:25.182 --> 00:07:28.856 Menzi asked you to go somewhere, you go, no idea what it was about. I 122 00:07:28.878 --> 00:07:32.170 went, and it's changed my life. Because 123 00:07:34.540 --> 00:07:38.284 if he was here today, what he would say is, the reason I did what 124 00:07:38.322 --> 00:07:42.156 I did was to enable humanity to 125 00:07:42.178 --> 00:07:45.564 find its own truth. That's what he says. He says that anywhere, if anybody ever 126 00:07:45.602 --> 00:07:49.324 asks him the right question. And that was what he started that 127 00:07:49.362 --> 00:07:52.656 meeting out with. We were there for an entire day. And what he said is, 128 00:07:52.678 --> 00:07:56.492 you walked in here from all your disciplines. I was an aerospace engineer. 129 00:07:56.636 --> 00:08:00.324 But you walk out of here as web scientists. It doesn't matter 130 00:08:00.362 --> 00:08:03.590 what that means. It means whatever it needs to mean. But 131 00:08:08.440 --> 00:08:11.716 in order to enable his vision of 132 00:08:11.818 --> 00:08:15.412 humanity to discover its own truth, we needed to include 133 00:08:15.476 --> 00:08:19.272 everybody. And in the 20th anniversary of the web for 20 years 134 00:08:19.326 --> 00:08:23.096 on, what he effectively said was, I haven't managed to 135 00:08:23.118 --> 00:08:26.796 do that. We have 18% of the world online, and you lot 136 00:08:26.898 --> 00:08:30.510 are here to figure out how to change that. And so 137 00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:36.112 that was eleven years ago, and now we have over 50% of the world 138 00:08:36.166 --> 00:08:39.890 online. We paste the build out of the web 139 00:08:41.140 --> 00:08:44.464 to give people access. There's more of it 140 00:08:44.502 --> 00:08:47.888 available than people are connected. So anybody 141 00:08:47.974 --> 00:08:51.060 chooses to be connected, they're in and 142 00:08:51.210 --> 00:08:54.896 beyond 80% of humanity, it's slightly different. There's 143 00:08:54.928 --> 00:08:58.724 a different piece to be done there, and that's the piece we 144 00:08:58.762 --> 00:09:02.216 work on now at my company, flying by and rain. But for 80% of the 145 00:09:02.238 --> 00:09:05.784 world, connected, you can make a personal choice and you're in 146 00:09:05.982 --> 00:09:09.496 Tim, we worked with him for eleven years. 147 00:09:09.598 --> 00:09:12.570 And that vision of 148 00:09:13.100 --> 00:09:16.604 I translated that connect humanity to its own 149 00:09:16.642 --> 00:09:20.412 truth, to in my view, what flying binary would do, my company 150 00:09:20.466 --> 00:09:24.284 would do is work out how to develop the technology to make 151 00:09:24.322 --> 00:09:28.016 that vision true and to leave no one behind. So that's what 152 00:09:28.038 --> 00:09:31.136 I mean by inclusion. Wow. 153 00:09:31.238 --> 00:09:34.976 Yeah. As you're talking now, I'm just reflecting, I mean I'm in 154 00:09:34.998 --> 00:09:38.832 my mid, well, still in my mid 50s, just about 155 00:09:38.886 --> 00:09:42.484 56, I think so, yeah. Mid fifty s. And my 156 00:09:42.522 --> 00:09:46.228 life is inconceivably different to it would have been without the 157 00:09:46.234 --> 00:09:49.590 Internet, without the web. And I grew up 158 00:09:50.040 --> 00:09:53.776 in the early 80s. Well, Ellis core in the early eighty s. And 159 00:09:53.818 --> 00:09:57.368 the Web just wasn't a thing. Mobile phones, they weren't a 160 00:09:57.374 --> 00:10:01.096 thing. Phones. The best you have was a cordless phone in your bedroom that 161 00:10:01.118 --> 00:10:04.616 connected to a base station somewhere. And it's a big chunk of a brick. And 162 00:10:04.638 --> 00:10:08.284 I remember getting into it, into computing, desktop computing, in the mid 163 00:10:08.322 --> 00:10:12.044 80s, just after the IBM PC launched, when there was, we 164 00:10:12.082 --> 00:10:15.768 used to call it IBM PC compatible because there were so many incompatibles 165 00:10:15.864 --> 00:10:19.304 and Apple were still producing their own version stuff and there was no standards 166 00:10:19.352 --> 00:10:22.752 of word processing units, there was no real standard of communication between 167 00:10:22.806 --> 00:10:26.160 pcs. We had things like the Gopher protocol and the early 168 00:10:26.230 --> 00:10:29.260 SMTP protocols were coming out and all these various 169 00:10:29.340 --> 00:10:33.184 technologies remaining niche about universities connecting 170 00:10:33.232 --> 00:10:36.996 through their own Internet type. Early stage ARPANET, I think it was 171 00:10:37.018 --> 00:10:40.516 called. In those early stages. That's right, communicator and 172 00:10:40.538 --> 00:10:44.344 then Gopher seemed to be quite a leading kind of protocol. Then 173 00:10:44.382 --> 00:10:47.850 HTTP and HTML kicked in, 174 00:10:49.340 --> 00:10:52.996 and that's when it started. Even HTTPs wasn't really a thing in the early stages. 175 00:10:53.028 --> 00:10:56.564 There was no such thing as trust and encryption because 176 00:10:56.622 --> 00:11:00.364 people tended to trust each other anyway. It's only when the bad guys got 177 00:11:00.402 --> 00:11:03.852 involved, really, that we had to start worrying about eavesdropping. And 178 00:11:03.986 --> 00:11:07.772 bad guys have been responsible for a lot of technology advancements, but they've also 179 00:11:07.826 --> 00:11:11.664 snookered a lot of good ideas, haven't they? Yes, absolutely. And that's the work 180 00:11:11.702 --> 00:11:15.296 I do today as a web scientist. So I work on the dark web, 181 00:11:15.398 --> 00:11:18.828 which is where those people inhabit and essentially 182 00:11:18.924 --> 00:11:21.920 work in the cyberspace 183 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:26.240 to ensure that we maintain that vision of humanity 184 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:30.036 connected to its own truth, despite what you've just the 185 00:11:30.058 --> 00:11:33.908 phenomenon of the cybercriminals that you're talking about, despite that. So that's 186 00:11:33.924 --> 00:11:37.528 the work we do every day at fine binary. Yeah, 187 00:11:37.614 --> 00:11:41.256 I remember, I think I was about 14 and I was in 188 00:11:41.278 --> 00:11:44.996 geography and we were set homework and it was called sheep farming 189 00:11:45.028 --> 00:11:48.748 in Patagonia. And we had to write an essay on sheep farming in 190 00:11:48.754 --> 00:11:52.284 Patagonia. So as a 14 year old, what were my 191 00:11:52.322 --> 00:11:55.196 options? What were my options? I had to go to the local library, I had 192 00:11:55.218 --> 00:11:58.980 to hunt through some research. I had no way of finding 193 00:11:59.000 --> 00:12:02.256 this. And eventually I found a book, I think, with about a page in it 194 00:12:02.438 --> 00:12:06.256 that was relevant and I think I got a d for it 195 00:12:06.278 --> 00:12:10.016 because I didn't perceive to do enough research. I spent days on 196 00:12:10.038 --> 00:12:13.876 this and I think now I can whip the phone up my pocket, I 197 00:12:13.898 --> 00:12:17.460 can type sheep farming in Patagonia. I will try this afterwards. 198 00:12:17.960 --> 00:12:21.600 And I can get articles and opinions and journals 199 00:12:21.680 --> 00:12:25.236 from all over the world, not just from Argentina or South 200 00:12:25.268 --> 00:12:29.096 America, that can give me the answers to my 201 00:12:29.118 --> 00:12:32.570 question. So when we talk about accessibility of data, accessibility of information, 202 00:12:33.180 --> 00:12:36.936 inclusion in terms of allowing people to communicate, we couldn't 203 00:12:36.968 --> 00:12:40.764 have survived lockdown and coronavirus 30 years ago or even ten 204 00:12:40.802 --> 00:12:44.604 years ago, could we? No, absolutely not. And it reminds me of Gen 205 00:12:44.642 --> 00:12:48.204 Alpha is who we build for today, so to unlock their 206 00:12:48.242 --> 00:12:51.744 talents so that they can bring their talents to the world. 207 00:12:51.862 --> 00:12:55.104 And it reminds me of a video that a mum sent me, which is actually 208 00:12:55.142 --> 00:12:58.576 on YouTube if you want to go look for it, where the mum gives her 209 00:12:58.598 --> 00:13:02.372 little girl a magazine, a hard copy magazine, and she 210 00:13:02.426 --> 00:13:06.256 immediately does what any of Gen Alpha do because they're a kinesthetic 211 00:13:06.288 --> 00:13:10.052 generation is she swipes it, she touches it 212 00:13:10.106 --> 00:13:13.816 and she passes it back in seconds and says, it doesn't work. 213 00:13:13.918 --> 00:13:17.672 Mum replaces it with an iPad and then the child goes and does 214 00:13:17.726 --> 00:13:21.400 what she's looking. And the thing about 215 00:13:21.470 --> 00:13:25.112 Gen Alpha is there are first generation where they're 216 00:13:25.176 --> 00:13:28.504 immersed in what we've talked about. So I'm a baby boomer 217 00:13:28.552 --> 00:13:32.044 myself and essentially I've done that 218 00:13:32.082 --> 00:13:35.576 trajectory. As I said, I was catapulted into 219 00:13:35.618 --> 00:13:39.116 technology against my will as an aerospace engineer 220 00:13:39.308 --> 00:13:43.090 and came back to now, well, 221 00:13:43.700 --> 00:13:47.376 eleven years ago when I met Tim, to the industrial Internet of 222 00:13:47.398 --> 00:13:51.044 things, which is what we build, that's what deep tech is. And 223 00:13:51.082 --> 00:13:54.836 essentially that's because we are in a 224 00:13:54.858 --> 00:13:57.910 situation now where we can connect 225 00:13:58.520 --> 00:14:02.104 to do whatever we do. It doesn't matter what generation we're from, we 226 00:14:02.142 --> 00:14:05.636 can. But Gen Alpha are a kinesthetic 227 00:14:05.668 --> 00:14:08.890 generation that assume to be immersed in this stuff. 228 00:14:09.660 --> 00:14:13.380 They just have no concept of the idea, it's not available if they want to 229 00:14:13.390 --> 00:14:16.760 know. And so I call the Gen alpha generation, the curious 230 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:20.604 generation, the previous generation, Gen Z, there are 231 00:14:20.642 --> 00:14:24.430 web entrepreneurs, they're 27 to 70 days and 232 00:14:25.300 --> 00:14:29.056 they influence 40% of the economic spend across the world. 233 00:14:29.238 --> 00:14:32.928 So they have introduced us to the explore space, 234 00:14:33.094 --> 00:14:36.736 but Gen Alpha introduced us to the curious space. 235 00:14:36.838 --> 00:14:39.844 So it's no coincidence that inclusion is 236 00:14:39.882 --> 00:14:42.980 becoming such a pervasive 237 00:14:44.680 --> 00:14:48.352 focus for lots of the world, because Gen Alpha 238 00:14:48.416 --> 00:14:51.856 know no reason why it shouldn't be. And if you don't 239 00:14:51.888 --> 00:14:55.704 believe know Greta Thunberg and her climate change thing is, 240 00:14:55.742 --> 00:14:59.304 why is all this nonsense going on? What on earth are you all doing? 241 00:14:59.422 --> 00:15:03.268 Let's just fix this. And so they are, in their kinesthetic 242 00:15:03.284 --> 00:15:06.684 way, they will reach those resources which are everywhere. And 243 00:15:06.802 --> 00:15:10.030 the acceleration of the adoption of the web and 244 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:14.764 bringing humanity on to be able to use its resources to 245 00:15:14.802 --> 00:15:17.996 discover its own truth is an accelerating 246 00:15:18.108 --> 00:15:21.632 phenomenon now. So for those of us that were pre 247 00:15:21.766 --> 00:15:25.584 web generation, even pre Internet generation, it's been 248 00:15:25.622 --> 00:15:29.104 a slow path. But for Gen Z and Gen Alpha, they know no different. 249 00:15:29.222 --> 00:15:32.816 So if you know anybody or you've reared somebody, as I have, who's 250 00:15:32.848 --> 00:15:36.276 27 or under, you know exactly what I'm talking about. You may have 251 00:15:36.298 --> 00:15:40.116 nephews or nieces, neighbours, children, you know exactly what 252 00:15:40.138 --> 00:15:43.912 you're talking about. What we at Joanne and I are talking about today, 253 00:15:44.046 --> 00:15:47.544 it's really interesting that that becomes and frames our 254 00:15:47.582 --> 00:15:51.428 world. And lockdown has effectively typified 255 00:15:51.604 --> 00:15:53.850 the acceleration of all of that. 256 00:15:55.740 --> 00:15:59.260 Mean us oldies still have this 257 00:15:59.330 --> 00:16:02.190 concept of digital detox where we seem to. 258 00:16:03.040 --> 00:16:06.188 I've had enough now I need to reject this and sort of go offline for 259 00:16:06.194 --> 00:16:09.896 a month or so. But Gen Alphas and Gen Z 260 00:16:10.018 --> 00:16:13.810 have this concept of detox because they're so immersed in the technology, 261 00:16:14.500 --> 00:16:17.836 is their channel, their world? Can they switch 262 00:16:17.868 --> 00:16:21.236 off? Is that good for their health? I mean, are we living this 24 x 263 00:16:21.258 --> 00:16:24.996 seven world of connection? Is that good for our mental health? 264 00:16:25.178 --> 00:16:28.804 Well, it's an interesting question that, because it's a multifaceted question, 265 00:16:28.922 --> 00:16:32.536 and there's a number of ways of looking at it, but to boil it down 266 00:16:32.558 --> 00:16:35.832 to two essential ways as 267 00:16:35.886 --> 00:16:39.656 humans, the human contact, which of course has 268 00:16:39.678 --> 00:16:43.336 been a feature of this lockdown, in terms of our lack of it, or a 269 00:16:43.358 --> 00:16:47.052 reduction of it, or our limitation of it, I think 270 00:16:47.106 --> 00:16:50.732 most people would say we've understood our dependency on other 271 00:16:50.786 --> 00:16:54.540 humans as part of lockdown, because denying us those social 272 00:16:54.610 --> 00:16:58.272 contacts, or doing them as we are today, via a video 273 00:16:58.326 --> 00:17:02.124 platform, has very much defined things and we've understood 274 00:17:02.172 --> 00:17:05.792 we miss that social contact. So there's that 275 00:17:05.846 --> 00:17:09.276 element of it, but the other element of it is my work on the dark 276 00:17:09.308 --> 00:17:12.628 web. Not everything we access online 277 00:17:12.794 --> 00:17:16.356 is something that is good for us, but how do we tell the 278 00:17:16.378 --> 00:17:20.132 difference? And the answer is, you can't. And we can have a long debate about 279 00:17:20.186 --> 00:17:23.912 that, but the reality of it is you can't. So 280 00:17:23.966 --> 00:17:27.736 I, this week, have kicked off a new 281 00:17:27.838 --> 00:17:31.300 project which is, based on the evidence 282 00:17:31.460 --> 00:17:34.990 we've assembled, safeguarding our young people 283 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:39.836 from the cybercriminals during lockdown. We call it the 284 00:17:39.858 --> 00:17:43.656 social Guardian and that's because they call it the social Guardian. Jen 285 00:17:43.688 --> 00:17:47.280 Alpha have said, I feel we need a social 286 00:17:47.350 --> 00:17:51.024 guardian to help us navigate when we are online, 287 00:17:51.142 --> 00:17:54.876 the unplug or not. I have many parents. I've 288 00:17:54.908 --> 00:17:58.656 worked within lockdown where we've had this conversation. Don't wind them 289 00:17:58.678 --> 00:18:01.796 up by asking to unplug. Find them other things to do, 290 00:18:01.898 --> 00:18:05.604 and they will adopt the thing that works best 291 00:18:05.642 --> 00:18:09.348 for them. But what we now have is a phenomenon where the online 292 00:18:09.434 --> 00:18:13.088 harm we suffer is 293 00:18:13.114 --> 00:18:16.776 not transparent to us. We don't know when we're suffering. So the 294 00:18:16.798 --> 00:18:20.440 social guardian is what Jen Alpha have helped me put together during 295 00:18:20.510 --> 00:18:23.980 lockdown as part of that safeguarding. And we will 296 00:18:24.050 --> 00:18:27.900 effectively. What we are going to do is build them an app based 297 00:18:27.970 --> 00:18:31.310 on what we've been doing during lockdown to support 298 00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:35.660 their mental health in order to create 299 00:18:35.730 --> 00:18:39.484 this fundamental research which is very directed 300 00:18:39.532 --> 00:18:43.216 at the moment around Gen Alpha. But we are looking at 301 00:18:43.238 --> 00:18:47.020 that some of the online harm that people suffered during lockdown, 302 00:18:47.100 --> 00:18:50.896 Gen Alpha suffered during lockdown, has been quite destructive. 303 00:18:51.008 --> 00:18:54.564 So it's going to be looking in the acute mental health care. But 304 00:18:54.602 --> 00:18:58.404 obviously we will assemble the evidence and the means of 305 00:18:58.522 --> 00:19:02.212 looking at everybody's mental wellbeing. Although we again 306 00:19:02.266 --> 00:19:05.784 will be focused on Gen Z and Gen Alpha and how they can 307 00:19:05.822 --> 00:19:09.592 navigate this world with their own options, but 308 00:19:09.646 --> 00:19:13.376 know when it's not safe for them. And so to be able to configure 309 00:19:13.428 --> 00:19:16.030 that from a personal point of view. 310 00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:20.716 Yeah, for sure. When I talk about inclusion and when we 311 00:19:20.738 --> 00:19:24.152 talk to companies around doing inclusion surveys, 312 00:19:24.216 --> 00:19:27.724 demographics, when companies say, well, we've found it really 313 00:19:27.762 --> 00:19:31.584 difficult to get people to contribute or to share. My first 314 00:19:31.622 --> 00:19:35.264 reaction is where there's a low trust environment, people won't trust their 315 00:19:35.302 --> 00:19:37.792 data with you if they don't understand what they're going to do with the data, 316 00:19:37.846 --> 00:19:41.636 what the reason, what's their why for giving you the data. So we're moving to 317 00:19:41.658 --> 00:19:45.460 a cyber world now where we can't trust what we see, 318 00:19:45.530 --> 00:19:49.188 what we hear. Deep fake technology. I'm sure you've got a lot 319 00:19:49.194 --> 00:19:52.968 of opinions on deep fake. We've got a lot of 320 00:19:52.974 --> 00:19:56.440 fake news. World leaders are 321 00:19:56.510 --> 00:20:00.330 speaking truth. That is fake. So 322 00:20:01.180 --> 00:20:04.920 can we trust world leaders anymore? Can we trust that it's actually them 323 00:20:04.990 --> 00:20:08.220 speaking? When we got AI that can voice synthesise, 324 00:20:08.560 --> 00:20:11.896 it's not like the old mission impossible. They're cutting bits of mag tape and sticking 325 00:20:11.928 --> 00:20:15.336 them together to make the words. You just feed their entire speech 326 00:20:15.368 --> 00:20:18.992 repertoire into an AR processor and you can then speak exactly like them, 327 00:20:19.046 --> 00:20:22.816 indistinguishable and deep fake. We can invent faces, we can make 328 00:20:22.838 --> 00:20:26.384 moving videos now and actually synthesise. I mean, if you look at the last Star 329 00:20:26.422 --> 00:20:30.108 wars movie, Princess Leia, Carrie Fisher had already died, 330 00:20:30.204 --> 00:20:33.828 yet they had her in the film. Is there a future for actors? Do we 331 00:20:33.834 --> 00:20:37.188 need actors anymore? Can we just synthesise our own actors and create our 332 00:20:37.194 --> 00:20:40.868 own mean? How do we trust what 333 00:20:40.874 --> 00:20:44.600 we're saying? So, it's a really good set of questions 334 00:20:44.670 --> 00:20:48.456 and there's no simple answer, and we need a completely other podcast to 335 00:20:48.478 --> 00:20:51.784 discuss that. But perhaps what I can do is try to 336 00:20:51.822 --> 00:20:55.076 coalesce some of that concern and interest 337 00:20:55.198 --> 00:20:58.536 and excitement actually around that future. You're 338 00:20:58.568 --> 00:21:02.236 painting the industrial Internet of things, which is what I 339 00:21:02.258 --> 00:21:05.820 do as a web scientist. That's what we build, that's what we engineer, 340 00:21:06.260 --> 00:21:09.376 is something that has, since my Dava speech in 341 00:21:09.398 --> 00:21:13.008 2019, has become 342 00:21:13.094 --> 00:21:15.730 understood for the governments across the world. 343 00:21:16.260 --> 00:21:19.988 Initially, for me, it was to be appointed as an expert advisor to 344 00:21:19.994 --> 00:21:23.572 the G 20. Now, G 20 are the member countries that 345 00:21:23.626 --> 00:21:24.230 actually, 346 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:30.884 they create 60% of the world's gdp. So they are 347 00:21:30.922 --> 00:21:34.772 the core group of countries, collaborate together on an annual 348 00:21:34.836 --> 00:21:38.644 basis. And throughout that, I first got involved 349 00:21:38.692 --> 00:21:42.456 in 2019 and on one of the 350 00:21:42.478 --> 00:21:45.790 member countries, Japan. But then in 351 00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:49.390 the end of 2019, I was appointed to the group itself. 352 00:21:49.840 --> 00:21:53.356 And the reason for that appointment was partly what you 353 00:21:53.378 --> 00:21:56.604 said, and partly because the world's growth 354 00:21:56.652 --> 00:22:00.432 and how it's been moving forward has been 355 00:22:00.486 --> 00:22:03.920 slowing and shrinking. And essentially 356 00:22:04.660 --> 00:22:08.176 the question they posed to me was, is there a 357 00:22:08.198 --> 00:22:11.540 way of looking at this with a different 358 00:22:11.610 --> 00:22:15.424 lens? And the answer is, of course there is. That lens is inclusion, 359 00:22:15.552 --> 00:22:19.264 because unlocking the talents of our future workforce, 360 00:22:19.312 --> 00:22:23.012 which is what they're focused on, the future, Gen Z and Gen Alpha 361 00:22:23.076 --> 00:22:26.776 require very different interventions than what we have now. 362 00:22:26.878 --> 00:22:30.440 So I was able to, when we had our 363 00:22:30.510 --> 00:22:34.216 digital economy kickoff, which is the digital economies of 364 00:22:34.238 --> 00:22:38.044 all of the G 20, in February in the Middle East, I was able 365 00:22:38.082 --> 00:22:41.116 to put a global plan together with a 366 00:22:41.138 --> 00:22:44.956 4.4% growth for all of the countries to be able 367 00:22:44.978 --> 00:22:48.524 to move forward on, but had to be an inclusion 368 00:22:48.572 --> 00:22:52.304 agenda. That's the only way they would achieve it. Now, if you can 369 00:22:52.342 --> 00:22:55.744 do that in the Middle east and you're interested in 370 00:22:55.782 --> 00:22:59.392 inclusion, there's nothing that you're looking at that you 371 00:22:59.446 --> 00:23:03.136 can't do. I take you back to my earlier 372 00:23:03.168 --> 00:23:06.960 statement, as I started as an aerospace engineer and didn't get my career 373 00:23:07.040 --> 00:23:10.852 because the Middle east had bought those planes and didn't need a woman on board. 374 00:23:10.986 --> 00:23:14.836 But then I forward that to 2020 because I delivered 375 00:23:14.868 --> 00:23:17.768 that plan formally in February of 2020 376 00:23:17.774 --> 00:23:21.512 and I was in the Middle east telling them 377 00:23:21.566 --> 00:23:25.292 how they will run their world and actually how the G 378 00:23:25.346 --> 00:23:29.084 20 will need to be orchestrated. So you take that whole thing 379 00:23:29.122 --> 00:23:32.440 and we are effectively flipping the model upside 380 00:23:32.520 --> 00:23:36.304 down. Now, be careful what you do, because obviously you get 381 00:23:36.342 --> 00:23:40.160 involved in this. There's an awful lot to come 382 00:23:40.310 --> 00:23:43.936 out of it. What I would say is, anybody working on the 383 00:23:43.958 --> 00:23:47.500 inclusion agenda now, the timing 384 00:23:47.580 --> 00:23:51.252 is have. Because what happened after that 385 00:23:51.306 --> 00:23:55.156 was the United nations got in touch. I'm a science diplomat for 386 00:23:55.178 --> 00:23:58.932 her Majesty's government. I work with other governments that need 387 00:23:58.986 --> 00:24:02.790 the sorts of interventions we're talking about, not limited to the g 20. 388 00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:07.176 And they said, we'd love that plan. And I said, that 389 00:24:07.198 --> 00:24:10.792 will be lovely, but that G 20 plan won't work for you. We have 390 00:24:10.846 --> 00:24:14.696 different needs across the rest of the world. And essentially, the 391 00:24:14.718 --> 00:24:18.524 G 20 global plan is translated to national plans anyway. 392 00:24:18.642 --> 00:24:22.156 Do you know what I mean? There is an overarching agreement we will move forward 393 00:24:22.258 --> 00:24:26.028 on a growth agenda using inclusion as our driver. 394 00:24:26.124 --> 00:24:29.824 But how you do that in the UK or Japan or 395 00:24:29.862 --> 00:24:33.488 Australia is actually different, because each economy is different. 396 00:24:33.654 --> 00:24:37.276 And so I've been appointed an expert advisor 397 00:24:37.308 --> 00:24:41.044 to translate that to what does the UN need to do 398 00:24:41.162 --> 00:24:44.820 to drive its agenda forward? And the UN is actually very different. 399 00:24:44.890 --> 00:24:48.564 The UN is looking at a sustainable future, so 400 00:24:48.602 --> 00:24:52.136 it's not particularly focused on growth. It wants the future to be 401 00:24:52.158 --> 00:24:55.976