Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for the
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number of
Joanne Lockwood: amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subject of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for
Joanne Lockwood: everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do
Joanne Lockwood: drop me a line to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: That's S-E-E Change Happen dot Co dot Uk. You'll be
Joanne Lockwood: to get top of all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify.
Joanne Lockwood: And the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab
Joanne Lockwood: a decaf and let's get going. Today is
Joanne Lockwood: episode 19 with the title creating a level of playing
Joanne Lockwood: field in attitude and action. I have the
Joanne Lockwood: absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Sarah Burrell. I
Joanne Lockwood: met Sarah a few years back at a diversity and inclusion event in London
Joanne Lockwood: and we've been friends ever since. Sarah describes herself
Joanne Lockwood: as a trainer, consultant, event organiser and public
Joanne Lockwood: speaker. I asked Sarah to describe her
Joanne Lockwood: superpower and she said, active listening.
Joanne Lockwood: Hello, Sarah. Welcome to the show. Hi,
Sarah Burrell: Jo to be here. Thank you for having me,
Sarah Burrell: Dave. No, it's absolute pleasure. I mean, we've been friends for a long
Joanne Lockwood: time. So tell me, why
Joanne Lockwood: is it so important that we need to create this level playing field,
Joanne Lockwood: both attitude and action? I
Sarah Burrell: think that this ties in nicely to
Sarah Burrell: the recent issue
Sarah Burrell: that's been raised by Black Lives Matter, is
Sarah Burrell: that actually we have a systemic issue
Sarah Burrell: that is historic and we need to
Sarah Burrell: recognise where we stand within that
Sarah Burrell: and actually what we can do to empower
Sarah Burrell: others as well as ourselves.
Joanne Lockwood: And I think that people don't realise.
Sarah Burrell: Without questioning themselves where they
Sarah Burrell: stand on. What context
Joanne Lockwood: they can assist with
Joanne Lockwood: this movement. Let's
Sarah Burrell: say. I think that the concept
Sarah Burrell: to get grounded in is
Sarah Burrell: privilege, how we can use it,
Sarah Burrell: because we talk about privilege
Sarah Burrell: day in, day out, and we don't really talk about how
Sarah Burrell: we can utilise it. And actually,
Sarah Burrell: part of the
Sarah Burrell: reason why we need an equal level is
Sarah Burrell: because we're not equal yet, we're not on that pain
Sarah Burrell: field. And so when we
Sarah Burrell: use our privilege in the way that we can,
Sarah Burrell: we learn to invest in
Sarah Burrell: potential instead of
Sarah Burrell: meritocracy. Actually, meritocracy
Sarah Burrell: only works when we start.
Joanne Lockwood: At the same point. But
Sarah Burrell: unfortunately, differences
Sarah Burrell: in life, in
Sarah Burrell: support, in disability,
Sarah Burrell: in indifference, does not allow
Sarah Burrell: that equalness to pay out. We live
Sarah Burrell: in an unequal
Sarah Burrell: world and we need to champion
Sarah Burrell: and support and. Courage and
Joanne Lockwood: invest in potential,
Joanne Lockwood: as opposed. To always thinking
Sarah Burrell: about where we are actually
Sarah Burrell: at. That makes sense. It
Joanne Lockwood: does. And you're definitely pushing some of my
Joanne Lockwood: favourite buttons here and things I talk about. And let's go
Joanne Lockwood: back. You mentioned about privilege. What does
Joanne Lockwood: privilege mean to you as a white girl or a white woman? What does that
Joanne Lockwood: mean to you? I think that my
Joanne Lockwood: own privilege is. That,
Sarah Burrell: yes, I'm white, and yes,
Sarah Burrell: I have an education and I
Sarah Burrell: actually have a voice. And although my voice isn't.
Sarah Burrell: I got a speech impairment. Obviously, I meant to
Sarah Burrell: prefer. Meant to say that beforehand, but
Sarah Burrell: actually I have a speech impairment,
Sarah Burrell: which does. Bring up.
Sarah Burrell: My ways in which I am not
Sarah Burrell: equal. But let's go back to privilege a minute. So my
Sarah Burrell: privilege is that I have
Sarah Burrell: a monumental,
Sarah Burrell: monumental part of privilege is knowing where
Sarah Burrell: to invest in
Sarah Burrell: potential in the world. And I feel that
Sarah Burrell: my privilege.
Sarah Burrell: I discuss and talk about and
Sarah Burrell: push for change around
Sarah Burrell: things that are unequal. And I push
Joanne Lockwood: for systemic change
Joanne Lockwood: because. There'S
Sarah Burrell: too much of a difference to
Sarah Burrell: even think about
Sarah Burrell: being an equal pain to it
Sarah Burrell: yet. And so I use my
Sarah Burrell: voice, my platform, to
Sarah Burrell: empower other people to raise
Sarah Burrell: their voice as well and let them be heard.
Sarah Burrell: And I speak on
Sarah Burrell: behalf of those who do not feel
Sarah Burrell: confident enough to speak. And I speak for
Sarah Burrell: those who do not feel like they can.
Sarah Burrell: And I represent speech
Sarah Burrell: impairment.
Joanne Lockwood: I am.
Sarah Burrell: Terrified of speaking
Sarah Burrell: in recorded sessions
Sarah Burrell: like this one, actually. But I feel that
Sarah Burrell: my passion overrides
Sarah Burrell: my fear. And an
Joanne Lockwood: investment, if you like, is.
Sarah Burrell: More than my own
Sarah Burrell: negativity. It's much more. So this is much
Sarah Burrell: more important than thinking about my
Sarah Burrell: own speech and how I'm coming across, because
Sarah Burrell: the message is so important. So that's how
Sarah Burrell: I navigate my privilege in a bit.
Sarah Burrell: But there's still a lot more to go in my
Sarah Burrell: own head. But I do think if we
Sarah Burrell: can ground
Sarah Burrell: some of the elements of privilege. That
Joanne Lockwood: we hold and put those into.
Sarah Burrell: Action to try and make a culture
Sarah Burrell: which does raise up others to an
Sarah Burrell: equal, we can start there.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I understand completely. What
Joanne Lockwood: I found sometimes is that when you challenge somebody
Joanne Lockwood: and say they're privileged, or you say, have you checked your privilege? Or
Joanne Lockwood: do you understand your privilege? People get very defensive, don't they, when they
Joanne Lockwood: ask to think about the privilege they have, almost saying that
Joanne Lockwood: they don't feel they have a privilege. So would you say to them.
Sarah Burrell: I'm careful to avoid the direct
Sarah Burrell: question, because you're right, that can cause a
Sarah Burrell: conflict. And actually, that conflict goes
Sarah Burrell: like that. Uncomfort
Joanne Lockwood: in the conversation can put
Joanne Lockwood: a pause on rapport. And
Sarah Burrell: so through building
Sarah Burrell: rapport and trust
Sarah Burrell: in proactive engagement,
Sarah Burrell: builds that level of
Sarah Burrell: trust to enable us to have
Sarah Burrell: that conversation. And I think that it's important
Sarah Burrell: to point out it's like bias, isn't
Sarah Burrell: it? Unconscious bias
Sarah Burrell: is not a negative thing, necessarily,
Sarah Burrell: and privilege is not a negative. Thing,
Joanne Lockwood: but people are.
Sarah Burrell: People associate the
Sarah Burrell: word bias or the. Word
Joanne Lockwood: privilege with negativity, when
Joanne Lockwood: actually. It'S
Sarah Burrell: the opposite. And we can utilise
Joanne Lockwood: our privilege in. A positive
Sarah Burrell: way to
Sarah Burrell: shift culture forward. And so
Sarah Burrell: I avoid direct
Sarah Burrell: questions because. Of
Joanne Lockwood: the want to build.
Sarah Burrell: A relationship before going
Sarah Burrell: deeper, because I think that's very important
Sarah Burrell: for people to have that level of trust
Sarah Burrell: and level of understanding before going into.
Sarah Burrell: Going into too much about that.
Sarah Burrell: I think it is a triggering thing with people in
Sarah Burrell: it, especially surrounding
Sarah Burrell: the Black lives Matter movement. It's become
Sarah Burrell: too right. Black Lives Matter
Sarah Burrell: has finally become
Sarah Burrell: global
Sarah Burrell: thing. And finally,
Sarah Burrell: this tragedy after
Sarah Burrell: tragedy we see in the world
Sarah Burrell: was blind eye to it. It was a blind
Sarah Burrell: eye. There was a bystander effect there. And
Sarah Burrell: now it's not so much. Now
Sarah Burrell: there's an anti racism movement rather
Sarah Burrell: than ignorance, rather than turning away,
Sarah Burrell: but learning how to implement
Sarah Burrell: day to day strategies that
Sarah Burrell: enable and empower systemic
Sarah Burrell: change. And don't just pay
Sarah Burrell: lip service to that. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: for sure. I think you're right. It is about
Joanne Lockwood: recognising. It's a systemic cultural
Joanne Lockwood: change that needs to occur, not just in the individual who have someone
Joanne Lockwood: who's privileged. Because I think most of the pushback you often get is,
Joanne Lockwood: well, I'm not racist, but as you said,
Joanne Lockwood: it's about being antiracist. It's about being proactive in
Joanne Lockwood: your passion and your advocacy and stepping up and
Joanne Lockwood: stepping forward, or leaning in, as the Zane
Joanne Lockwood: goes, to give support to people, not just
Joanne Lockwood: when we talk about racism, when we talk about attitudes towards disability
Joanne Lockwood: or whatever that may be. Yeah. And I think
Sarah Burrell: that that's no more clear
Sarah Burrell: than talking about inequality
Sarah Burrell: in a general sense, because actually,
Sarah Burrell: when we look at disability,
Sarah Burrell: obviously I have a disability.
Joanne Lockwood: But I fought
Joanne Lockwood: to go to a. Mainstream school,
Sarah Burrell: and so because I knew
Sarah Burrell: that. I wanted
Joanne Lockwood: an education, because I
Joanne Lockwood: knew of negativity and
Joanne Lockwood: the fight
Joanne Lockwood: that. You have from the start,
Sarah Burrell: when you start at a different
Sarah Burrell: starting bites aren't the same.
Sarah Burrell: Having that knowledge, having that experience,
Sarah Burrell: does. Give huge.
Sarah Burrell: The gift of empathy. You get empathy from that and
Sarah Burrell: you learn to empathise with difference, you learn to
Sarah Burrell: empathise with people who experience
Sarah Burrell: maybe different challenges.
Joanne Lockwood: But a challenge, and less.
Sarah Burrell: And. Encouraging
Joanne Lockwood: people to
Joanne Lockwood: be that fantastic. Person
Sarah Burrell: they can be in all part of it,
Sarah Burrell: to learn this, to learn how
Sarah Burrell: you learn best, how we can
Sarah Burrell: support you best, how you communicate in your
Sarah Burrell: way best. These are all things that we
Sarah Burrell: learn through a dialogue, a rapport,
Sarah Burrell: not through lip
Sarah Burrell: service, not through talking about it and
Sarah Burrell: actually having that open conversation with. Someone
Joanne Lockwood: about how they would like
Joanne Lockwood: to. Be known as who they
Sarah Burrell: want to be called. These are all questions that we can.
Joanne Lockwood: Ask people to learn about
Joanne Lockwood: them as. Individuals and create their
Sarah Burrell: individual story for that. And so that's
Sarah Burrell: how we can support people,
Sarah Burrell: by learning about them and learning. About what works for
Joanne Lockwood: them and tailoring
Joanne Lockwood: to that. And then that
Sarah Burrell: enables them, that puts them on
Sarah Burrell: a pedestal, not pedestal,
Sarah Burrell: that. Gives them that boost because
Joanne Lockwood: they're learning how they learn.
Sarah Burrell: They're finding ways they need
Sarah Burrell: support. If you encourage that open
Sarah Burrell: dialogue, that open conversation and has
Sarah Burrell: you listening to, that's a
Sarah Burrell: brilliant way of not only
Sarah Burrell: building a person's confidence,
Sarah Burrell: but learning about. Yourself and learning about
Joanne Lockwood: what differences you. Can do in your life.
Sarah Burrell: I'm talking about, it's about
Sarah Burrell: empowerment and change, isn't it? Oh, for sure.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it is. And being personally accountable
Joanne Lockwood: for change, isn't it? Rather than saying it's somebody else's problem, I could
Joanne Lockwood: be the one as well. And we can see that in other aspects of our
Joanne Lockwood: life. And we talk about sustainability, we talk about
Joanne Lockwood: environmental, we talk about other things that we can take personal
Joanne Lockwood: responsibility for in terms of our own footprint. And
Joanne Lockwood: we have to do the same in terms of our impact on others as well,
Joanne Lockwood: don't we? Of course. And I think
Sarah Burrell: that's part of the ownership within
Sarah Burrell: the personal development part of it.
Sarah Burrell: It's owning what you can do for people, owning what you can
Sarah Burrell: do for yourself.
Joanne Lockwood: When we are put at a level.
Sarah Burrell: Of discomfort, when we push through
Sarah Burrell: that discomfort
Sarah Burrell: and learn lessons about ourselves,
Sarah Burrell: we. Learn more about others by doing that,
Joanne Lockwood: for sure. Let me ask you a couple of, couple of questions. I was
Joanne Lockwood: talking to somebody yesterday. I was talking to somebody yesterday and we were talking
Joanne Lockwood: about positive action and
Joanne Lockwood: tokenism in hiring. And they sent me
Joanne Lockwood: a question which was, there's two candidates. One
Joanne Lockwood: is an able bodied white man
Joanne Lockwood: and the other person is a person with a disability.
Joanne Lockwood: And they both have equal skills to prayer. So
Joanne Lockwood: in terms of positive action, why should they pick the
Joanne Lockwood: disabled person, the person with a disability?
Joanne Lockwood: Their argument was that the person without a disability
Joanne Lockwood: would be easier to hire. But we want to challenge that, don't we? When we're
Joanne Lockwood: looking at this. I don't
Sarah Burrell: think it's about easy to hire. I think it's about
Sarah Burrell: not wanting to change the status quo.
Joanne Lockwood: And that's what challenge
Joanne Lockwood: brings you. You have to change
Joanne Lockwood: the mould and. That'S what
Sarah Burrell: people are starting to
Sarah Burrell: see. We all have
Joanne Lockwood: something to bring to a role
Joanne Lockwood: and positive
Joanne Lockwood: action is a.
Sarah Burrell: Good thing if
Sarah Burrell: it's. If it is,
Sarah Burrell: if it's fully understood.
Sarah Burrell: Because some people
Sarah Burrell: see personal action as an
Sarah Burrell: unfair thing
Sarah Burrell: or
Sarah Burrell: a shift in inequality. But actually
Sarah Burrell: the rubbishmen are here. I'm going to stop for 1 minute
Sarah Burrell: while the rubbish. Don't
Joanne Lockwood: worry, we've had people's mums on the conversation in the past, so it's
Joanne Lockwood: okay.
Joanne Lockwood: At least it's not the Amazon man
Joanne Lockwood: or the Amazon person.
Sarah Burrell: This timing is perfect. Isn't it ridiculous? Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: This is an inclusive podcast. We're open to all contributions from
Joanne Lockwood: more people. So don't worry about the rubbish man.
Sarah Burrell: Hoping they'll go away quickly.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it's okay, you're clear now. Go for it. Okay.
Sarah Burrell: Might come back for more. Hang on. You got a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: rubbish. Right now. I can see
Joanne Lockwood: them. Yeah. So this just to prove to everybody that
Joanne Lockwood: this podcast is live and raw. We don't mess around with lots of
Joanne Lockwood: edits and cuts. This is kind of as it happens, we roll as we roll,
Joanne Lockwood: don't we? Yeah, apparently, yeah. Cool.
Sarah Burrell: I think they're migrating away, I think
Sarah Burrell: hopefully. I think that's an important part,
Joanne Lockwood: lesson we've learned in this lockdown, that we have to bring our whole self to
Joanne Lockwood: work and what that means, our whole home environment, and
Joanne Lockwood: to sort of start judging people on their background, on
Joanne Lockwood: Zoom calls, their children, their pets or other things going on in the
Joanne Lockwood: background. I think we've got to learn to get over that now because this
Joanne Lockwood: is the reality, isn't it? I mean, part of that which
Sarah Burrell: affects me, my. I
Sarah Burrell: host a
Sarah Burrell: peer to peer support group.
Sarah Burrell: I've been doing it for ever since
Sarah Burrell: COVID took hold.
Sarah Burrell: A weekly support group. And we have to
Sarah Burrell: navigate slow Internet. We have to
Sarah Burrell: gather people walking around
Sarah Burrell: with important things to say. And actually we just have
Sarah Burrell: to fight really
Sarah Burrell: the interference and
Sarah Burrell: listen to what everyone has to say despite
Sarah Burrell: their circumstance. And
Sarah Burrell: that is challenging because some people are walking around, you get
Sarah Burrell: kind of interruptions from left, right and centre and it's
Sarah Burrell: really challenging. But they also have really important
Sarah Burrell: things to say and you just have to
Sarah Burrell: try really hard to hear them. And
Joanne Lockwood: that is how ending.
Joanne Lockwood: You hear a lot of people saying that it's much
Joanne Lockwood: easier for people who are disabled or with a disability, whichever phrase
Joanne Lockwood: you like to use, whichever terminology. Now we're in
Joanne Lockwood: lockdown, you're working in your home environment, therefore your environment
Joanne Lockwood: is geared around your accessibility needs. Is that
Joanne Lockwood: true or are we just generalising that it's going to be better for people with
Joanne Lockwood: disabilities to work from home. I think.
Sarah Burrell: This is a complicated question, Dave, actually
Sarah Burrell: access and inclusion
Sarah Burrell: over different things. And
Joanne Lockwood: although, yes.
Sarah Burrell: It can be more
Sarah Burrell: accessible to work from home for
Sarah Burrell: the. Single people, people with abilities, but.
Sarah Burrell: The isolation factor,
Sarah Burrell: the
Sarah Burrell: other things surrounding inclusion, the
Sarah Burrell: culture, the understanding and
Sarah Burrell: the trust,
Sarah Burrell: doing what we said before, asking no question, making
Sarah Burrell: sure support is there
Sarah Burrell: and making sure we have all we
Sarah Burrell: need, to have all the equipment we need
Sarah Burrell: to pursue in a comfortable
Sarah Burrell: way. I think that that's where we
Sarah Burrell: see positive
Sarah Burrell: shift with this, with COVID
Sarah Burrell: and I recently wrote an article about this.
Sarah Burrell: It was called silver linings of
Sarah Burrell: a pandemic, highlighting
Sarah Burrell: the almost inadvertent
Sarah Burrell: inclusive nature of workforces that has had to come
Sarah Burrell: about because people have children, people have
Sarah Burrell: people to take care of, people have
Sarah Burrell: different and require
Sarah Burrell: flexible working patterns.
Sarah Burrell: Surrounding Covid, there's been so
Sarah Burrell: many conversations
Sarah Burrell: surrounding empathy, being empathetic
Sarah Burrell: to our workforce because of
Sarah Burrell: this change, and I think that's a very positive
Sarah Burrell: thing. We have to
Sarah Burrell: grasp it, take hold and enhance
Sarah Burrell: it as we move forward
Sarah Burrell: now we're becoming a little bit more
Sarah Burrell: connected again. We had to make sure
Joanne Lockwood: that. Those
Sarah Burrell: proactive engagement with people, the proactive,
Sarah Burrell: empathetic method we've had to
Sarah Burrell: take over the past four months to enable people to
Sarah Burrell: work from home, to enable people to work around their children, to
Sarah Burrell: enable things to continue. There has
Sarah Burrell: to have been that empowerment, trust,
Sarah Burrell: engagement to respond to the crisis,
Sarah Burrell: and that can create a more cohesive, more collaborative
Sarah Burrell: approach to navigating the this
Sarah Burrell: pandemic. We need to take things
Sarah Burrell: from our lessons that are
Sarah Burrell: learned in the cultural
Sarah Burrell: shift we've had to go along
Sarah Burrell: and ensure we don't forget them moving
Sarah Burrell: forward in practise and how we
Sarah Burrell: can continue to support people, how we can
Sarah Burrell: continue to ask, engage in the
Sarah Burrell: right way, enable people to do their best job and
Sarah Burrell: reach potential. Yeah,
Joanne Lockwood: I hear everything you're saying there, and I think there's a danger
Joanne Lockwood: that, say, employers as a
Joanne Lockwood: grouping could often look at a disabled person or person with
Joanne Lockwood: disability and assume their
Joanne Lockwood: disability is the defining factor. So by saying,
Joanne Lockwood: our great member of staff here is working from home, they're okay now,
Joanne Lockwood: but what we're actually not doing is looking at that person in
Joanne Lockwood: a person centric, holistic way. So we're actually this person, what's their family
Joanne Lockwood: situation going out? Maybe
Joanne Lockwood: it was their lifeline, they're living in isolation now, they're not having social contact.
Joanne Lockwood: Maybe they love that extrovert, bubbly personality and
Joanne Lockwood: they're really struggling for being isolated at home. So by just
Joanne Lockwood: categorising someone as a person with a disability, disabled person, they must be better
Joanne Lockwood: off now they're at home because it's more accessible, as you say. It's forgetting
Joanne Lockwood: that inclusion element about understanding them as a human being, isn't it?
Sarah Burrell: And as you said, that's so crucial.
Sarah Burrell: The proactive things I've been talking about
Sarah Burrell: are all ways to
Sarah Burrell: respond actively to
Sarah Burrell: someone's needs in order to support them
Sarah Burrell: from home or in the workplace. And I think
Sarah Burrell: that going back to
Sarah Burrell: positive action and why we require
Sarah Burrell: someone who has equal foot
Sarah Burrell: qualifications and equal. Experience,
Joanne Lockwood: let's not forget that there's actually.
Sarah Burrell: A very unequal part of that,
Sarah Burrell: the part we do not see, because actually
Sarah Burrell: disabled people with disabilities,
Sarah Burrell: disabled people. For.
Sarah Burrell: Example, I go through a huge
Sarah Burrell: navigation of problem solving before
Sarah Burrell: I even leave the house. And
Joanne Lockwood: going through that all day,
Joanne Lockwood: every. Day in our head, this problem solving,
Sarah Burrell: problem solving
Sarah Burrell: mechanism that is completely unseen,
Sarah Burrell: that makes us actually probably better
Sarah Burrell: for a job, actually, we have the ability
Sarah Burrell: to problem solve in record
Sarah Burrell: times. We do it all the time. And
Sarah Burrell: that's the part that is not seen, that is
Sarah Burrell: incredibly well hidden within a lot of people who are
Sarah Burrell: going through either cognitive
Sarah Burrell: or social disability or physical disability.
Joanne Lockwood: So much not seen that we
Joanne Lockwood: inadvertently. Put in on a
Sarah Burrell: level playing field with someone who's equally qualified
Sarah Burrell: and equally experienced. But actually,
Sarah Burrell: I would argue that that's actually probably not true.
Sarah Burrell: For what you see on STV and what someone thoughts
Sarah Burrell: about
Sarah Burrell: and how actually got there, they're a very different
Sarah Burrell: story. That's
Sarah Burrell: what I would encourage people to think
Sarah Burrell: more about internalise
Sarah Burrell: and think a lot about. Because actually personal development
Sarah Burrell: and neurotocracy.
Joanne Lockwood: Do. Not go hand in hand if
Sarah Burrell: anyway, actually they do. A
Sarah Burrell: person's ability starts at a much different
Sarah Burrell: point and have to elevate themselves
Sarah Burrell: in order to be that equal. In
Sarah Burrell: envy, you always have to do. More,
Joanne Lockwood: you always have to set yourself. At a
Sarah Burrell: higher standard and
Sarah Burrell: know that going in. I know whenever I
Sarah Burrell: interviewed, before I started my own business and
Sarah Burrell: before I went into life for myself, I
Sarah Burrell: knew every interview I had to be that.
Joanne Lockwood: Much more qualified, that
Joanne Lockwood: much more valued, that much
Joanne Lockwood: more experience, because
Joanne Lockwood: unfortunately so. Many interviewers and
Sarah Burrell: recruiters do not see your background,
Sarah Burrell: do not see your challenging.
Joanne Lockwood: Fight to get to
Joanne Lockwood: equal pain field
Joanne Lockwood: challenge for people. I think that's very common. I mean,
Joanne Lockwood: we don't always see the lived experience of a parent
Joanne Lockwood: and the valuable skills that being a parent, having a child,
Joanne Lockwood: nurturing and developing a child. The educational aspect
Joanne Lockwood: that maternal instincts that kick in
Joanne Lockwood: when you have children, that should be seen as a life skill as well, because
Joanne Lockwood: it breeds emotional intelligence, it breeds a different way of treating
Joanne Lockwood: people and understanding people. And you get involved with far more than someone who
Joanne Lockwood: isn't a parent. And often age brings experience. Okay,
Joanne Lockwood: age can bring stick in the mud as well, but age does bring experience. And
Joanne Lockwood: we all too often write people off in their early 50s
Joanne Lockwood: when they've still got 20 good years of valuable
Joanne Lockwood: skills and lift experience to bring to the office, haven't they?
Sarah Burrell: Yeah. I mean, thinking about that, what you did up,
Sarah Burrell: the differences,
Sarah Burrell: every element of. Diversity
Joanne Lockwood: brings something new, brings
Joanne Lockwood: something that. Hasn'T been brought up before, bring something
Sarah Burrell: that is of value. But it only
Joanne Lockwood: comes into effect when we
Joanne Lockwood: utilise strategic,
Joanne Lockwood: inclusive processes.
Sarah Burrell: If we can be as diversity
Sarah Burrell: a workforce as you can get
Sarah Burrell: without inclusion, we will not see the
Sarah Burrell: value of that. That's the
Sarah Burrell: importance, what I recognise anyway. The importance
Joanne Lockwood: of inclusion
Joanne Lockwood: and diversity. They have to go hand in hand in
Sarah Burrell: order to get the most value
Sarah Burrell: out of that diversity. And
Joanne Lockwood: that's where a real crux of.
Sarah Burrell: The conversation happened, because actually you can.
Joanne Lockwood: Hire the person with disability,
Joanne Lockwood: but that's where
Joanne Lockwood: the challenge starts, because you have to
Joanne Lockwood: then operate
Joanne Lockwood: inclusive leadership.
Sarah Burrell: And that's the point where you'll
Sarah Burrell: put the test, because
Sarah Burrell: only hiring someone different
Sarah Burrell: is positive and
Sarah Burrell: diverse. But utilising
Sarah Burrell: that positivity and diversity
Sarah Burrell: all comes with this understanding
Sarah Burrell: that difference brings
Sarah Burrell: innovation, difference can bring
Sarah Burrell: worth. We have to understand how
Sarah Burrell: we can support this person,
Sarah Burrell: how they best communicate their ideas,
Sarah Burrell: how they best learn, what. Time of day
Joanne Lockwood: are they better working. In,
Sarah Burrell: what structure works for them,
Sarah Burrell: what hours they are not able to
Sarah Burrell: function in, or wherever it might be.
Joanne Lockwood: There's a level of
Joanne Lockwood: proactive engagement that needs to start right there
Joanne Lockwood: when you hire someone from that point.
Joanne Lockwood: Not six months online, not
Joanne Lockwood: at the. Next review, not at a
Sarah Burrell: KTI performance review,
Sarah Burrell: not then, no. It starts at recruitment.
Sarah Burrell: It starts when you hire someone. And this is
Sarah Burrell: what a lot of people
Sarah Burrell: fear most. This is what people
Joanne Lockwood: hide behind a questionnaire
Joanne Lockwood: with. And what I've been
Sarah Burrell: developing over the last few months is
Sarah Burrell: actually a
Sarah Burrell: holistic approach questionnaire
Sarah Burrell: that starts at induction, that. Starts
Joanne Lockwood: at that point, to learn,
Joanne Lockwood: to. Build rapport, to learn how
Sarah Burrell: this person. Can bring value
Joanne Lockwood: without the fear, without. The dread, without the
Sarah Burrell: end. It's a two way conversation that doesn't
Sarah Burrell: end at the end of that meeting. It continues.
Sarah Burrell: We develop this, we develop our rapport,
Sarah Burrell: develop our conversation. And
Sarah Burrell: that questionnaire that you co create.
Joanne Lockwood: With this person will end up being
Joanne Lockwood: their passport, their
Joanne Lockwood: method to get their. Best value out
Sarah Burrell: of themselves, reach a potential in the
Sarah Burrell: full knowledge of the. Person who
Joanne Lockwood: manages them or the person who works with them.
Joanne Lockwood: Works with them both. That's when you get equal partnership.
Sarah Burrell: That's when you get an equal pain field. That's when you get
Sarah Burrell: that support needed to
Sarah Burrell: equalise and transform
Sarah Burrell: the workplace and the culture. That's where that comes
Joanne Lockwood: in. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Excellent points. Excellent points. As I'm listening to that, while I'm hearing
Joanne Lockwood: and thinking about. We're going back to the original questions about creating this level playing
Joanne Lockwood: field in action actions, and I think you probably
Joanne Lockwood: agree with me, or I hope you do, that. One of the things that is
Joanne Lockwood: important is visible people
Joanne Lockwood: visibility and role models. I know we don't like the word brave, we don't like
Joanne Lockwood: the word role models often, but we do need people in the public
Joanne Lockwood: eye who have representation of me, if
Joanne Lockwood: you like. I was looking at LinkedIn the other day and there's this
Joanne Lockwood: article about the BBC and how they are
Joanne Lockwood: proactive in their amplification and visibility of
Joanne Lockwood: people with disability. They
Joanne Lockwood: suffered a lot in the last 1020 years
Joanne Lockwood: of being seen as a very monoculture, very white,
Joanne Lockwood: middle upper class organisation, and they've put
Joanne Lockwood: some real proactive measures in place now. And I would say that
Joanne Lockwood: from my own perspective, the BBC are quite a good benchmark and litmus test for
Joanne Lockwood: what a good company looks like in terms of their attitude and culture. Do you
Joanne Lockwood: have a view on that? Wow.
Sarah Burrell: Okay. So I actually
Sarah Burrell: disagree with that,
Sarah Burrell: not wholeheartedly.
Sarah Burrell: I actually think Channel four
Sarah Burrell: present a much better working
Sarah Burrell: model of inclusion. And
Sarah Burrell: BBC
Sarah Burrell: may have improved over the years. Yes.
Sarah Burrell: But there
Sarah Burrell: is, as with so many.
Joanne Lockwood: Big organisations, there
Joanne Lockwood: is the.
Sarah Burrell: Tiers of hiring and at what
Sarah Burrell: level and the proportionality
Sarah Burrell: of the proportionality
Sarah Burrell: of management compared
Sarah Burrell: to entry level
Sarah Burrell: recruitment or compared to
Sarah Burrell: the space for going
Sarah Burrell: up in this organisation.
Joanne Lockwood: Has yet develop
Joanne Lockwood: working, I believe, working strategies
Joanne Lockwood: that effectively improve
Joanne Lockwood: the span. Of
Sarah Burrell: diversity throughout the hierarchy.
Sarah Burrell: Where Channel four come in,
Sarah Burrell: they've had a diversity board for years.
Joanne Lockwood: They've hired diverse.
Sarah Burrell: They've hired diverse
Sarah Burrell: diversity people at all levels
Sarah Burrell: of management, of seniority in the
Sarah Burrell: board across.
Sarah Burrell: And their approach,
Sarah Burrell: channel for approach, and their
Sarah Burrell: five year plan looks much
Sarah Burrell: more inclusive, I would argue,
Sarah Burrell: than BBC's.
Sarah Burrell: I had a meeting with BBC a couple of years
Sarah Burrell: ago and I got
Sarah Burrell: senior executives in the room and I was
Sarah Burrell: talking about unconscious bias and
Sarah Burrell: they were all very positive in the room
Sarah Burrell: about what I could do to them,
Sarah Burrell: how I could help support their
Sarah Burrell: changes and implement change. But at
Sarah Burrell: the very end, I got. Passed on
Joanne Lockwood: to disability
Joanne Lockwood: department, if you like, and with
Joanne Lockwood: their.
Sarah Burrell: I would argue, the
Sarah Burrell: target, kind of targeted
Sarah Burrell: hiring strategy of the
Sarah Burrell: same people, which I, at. That time,
Joanne Lockwood: disagree with, because it
Joanne Lockwood: was. Very much a divisive
Sarah Burrell: programme, I felt. And these.
Sarah Burrell: Although they were offered a contract for
Sarah Burrell: a year to learn, there was
Sarah Burrell: no
Sarah Burrell: further window for experience
Sarah Burrell: beyond that. And that demonstrates
Sarah Burrell: what we've been saying about
Sarah Burrell: the danger of action
Sarah Burrell: without a thought out plan.
Sarah Burrell: Going back to speech impairment, there are
Sarah Burrell: so few
Sarah Burrell: people, role models out there at
Sarah Burrell: management. Senior management
Sarah Burrell: director. Director levels.
Joanne Lockwood: Is not seen often.
Sarah Burrell: And this is where I see my privilege coming out.
Sarah Burrell: Although I hate the way I talk.
Joanne Lockwood: I hate that that's a difference for me. And
Sarah Burrell: it's still something I'm working on.
Sarah Burrell: That's still something I'm working on.
Joanne Lockwood: To. Feel comfortable in the way that I talk.
Sarah Burrell: But if I wasn't
Sarah Burrell: there here, doing what I'm doing as part
Sarah Burrell: of my business and
Sarah Burrell: my moral bites,
Sarah Burrell: to be that role model for someone that was out
Sarah Burrell: with a feature impairment, who doesn't. Feel confident
Joanne Lockwood: to be in a place of work.
Sarah Burrell: And that is not surprising, because, actually, so
Sarah Burrell: many workplaces do not know what. To
Joanne Lockwood: do with prepayment. And when people
Joanne Lockwood: don't know what to do, they avoid it.
Sarah Burrell: They avoid it, and they'll come up with five
Sarah Burrell: excuses for not hiring someone
Sarah Burrell: legit, perhaps. But their real reason,
Joanne Lockwood: perhaps, is their. Fear
Sarah Burrell: of the unknown and not having
Sarah Burrell: the resources, the questions, the right tools
Sarah Burrell: to enable that person to feel
Sarah Burrell: comfortable, do their job well. And that's
Sarah Burrell: where the barrier comes down. And
Sarah Burrell: we have to continue, as you. Said,
Joanne Lockwood: being that role model for
Joanne Lockwood: people who are not confident,
Joanne Lockwood: are not.
Sarah Burrell: Able. To do that themselves.
Joanne Lockwood: You were talking about speech impairment and how it's a significant barrier both
Joanne Lockwood: to you and to people with speech impediments in the workplace.
Joanne Lockwood: What's your thoughts about the. Why? Is it because people haven't got the
Joanne Lockwood: patience to listen to you actively? Or is it because
Joanne Lockwood: people assume because you have a speech impairment,
Joanne Lockwood: that you're less intelligent? Or is it a bit of both or bit of everything?
Sarah Burrell: It depends, QG, on
Sarah Burrell: who you're talking to, but I think, yes, it's a
Sarah Burrell: combination,
Sarah Burrell: because there are so few
Sarah Burrell: on this, there's so few
Sarah Burrell: people saying, right, this is what to
Sarah Burrell: do here. That's why there's that
Sarah Burrell: fear, and there's that barrier
Sarah Burrell: in understanding whether it's something. To
Joanne Lockwood: do with if.
Sarah Burrell: A person.
Sarah Burrell: I want to talk about preference nowadays, preference
Sarah Burrell: in a communication method is something I probably
Sarah Burrell: passionate about. And actually,
Sarah Burrell: we talk about preference
Sarah Burrell: and empowerment when it comes to
Sarah Burrell: gender and being, wanting to be
Sarah Burrell: referred to as
Sarah Burrell: the gender you identify as.
Joanne Lockwood: And so that question is out
Joanne Lockwood: there. That question about, hey, what do
Sarah Burrell: you prefer to be referred to
Sarah Burrell: as once that's known, brilliant.
Sarah Burrell: But that's an unknown entity that
Sarah Burrell: you prefer that you would like to be.
Joanne Lockwood: Referred to as a woman, let's say.
Sarah Burrell: And when we ask the question, okay.
Joanne Lockwood: So what is your preferred
Joanne Lockwood: method of. Communication
Sarah Burrell: that opens up so many doors that actually
Sarah Burrell: a person can then say, oh, well, I might not be confident in
Sarah Burrell: speaking, but I have great ideas that I want to
Sarah Burrell: communicate via email, or I have
Sarah Burrell: brilliant ideas, but I'm uncomfortable speaking
Sarah Burrell: in front of a whole room of people. Can
Sarah Burrell: we chat in a small group?
Sarah Burrell: These are things that can encourage people. To
Joanne Lockwood: think about how best they do. Things
Sarah Burrell: and how confident they can
Sarah Burrell: be. In getting a job done when they. Give
Sarah Burrell: in that option. And I think that's a
Sarah Burrell: huge question that isn't asked enough.
Sarah Burrell: I believe that if that question were. Asked
Joanne Lockwood: by employers, it would get much. More
Sarah Burrell: out of people.
Joanne Lockwood: And that's not just people's speech repellents, that's anybody. It's about being
Joanne Lockwood: person centric, isn't it? Yes. We're being inclusive. We ask
Joanne Lockwood: somebody, what can we do to help you? What can we do to
Joanne Lockwood: make you succeed or help you succeed? The
Sarah Burrell: point that this brings up is that actually that
Sarah Burrell: conversation doesn't stop
Sarah Burrell: there. If someone says no,
Joanne Lockwood: or, oh, I. Don'T know yet, or whatever.
Joanne Lockwood: That's part of personal development.
Sarah Burrell: And actually knowing that stuff
Sarah Burrell: can come. About through
Joanne Lockwood: learning about themselves. Don't expect an art to right
Sarah Burrell: away. You might not get one, you might. Get
Joanne Lockwood: passively thought out one. But
Joanne Lockwood: what you want to do is open up
Joanne Lockwood: dialogue, enable that individual
Joanne Lockwood: to. Feel uncomfortable and work it
Sarah Burrell: out. Work out how they work best.
Sarah Burrell: Work out whether a festival
Sarah Burrell: schedule works for them, work out what time of
Sarah Burrell: day they invest. Right. We were saying before.
Joanne Lockwood: We both write. Better in the
Sarah Burrell: afternoon, and so why push
Sarah Burrell: ourselves to sit in front of a
Sarah Burrell: computer staring at a bank
Sarah Burrell: screen for hours? And actually, if we work
Sarah Burrell: better and more productively in a
Sarah Burrell: concentrated birth in the afternoon, we
Sarah Burrell: might get much more done and feel less frustrated
Sarah Burrell: and feel. Much more
Joanne Lockwood: content with ourselves and a. Much higher
Sarah Burrell: level of well being. If we work that
Sarah Burrell: out and we. Follow that
Joanne Lockwood: in the way we work. And that's all about making
Sarah Burrell: workplaces work waters workplaces a much more
Sarah Burrell: agile environment. Environment
Sarah Burrell: flexible, working out. You can faith to
Sarah Burrell: work out and it will change over time. Have
Sarah Burrell: you open and continue and leave. Open
Joanne Lockwood: that dialogue. For
Joanne Lockwood: sure. It's making me
Joanne Lockwood: think about, are we actually getting anywhere? We've
Joanne Lockwood: got all these positive action campaigns, we've got all this awareness, we've got more
Joanne Lockwood: hashtags than we can count now. We've got movements, we've got passionate
Joanne Lockwood: people, we've got visibility, but are we really
Joanne Lockwood: making a lot of difference? Are we getting anywhere, do you think?
Sarah Burrell: I think it's taking time, but actually.
Joanne Lockwood: This is the real
Joanne Lockwood: silver lining of
Joanne Lockwood: this combination of
Joanne Lockwood: challenges that we have. Been working through
Sarah Burrell: since COVID came into alive. And
Sarah Burrell: actually
Sarah Burrell: the importance.
Joanne Lockwood: Of inclusive
Joanne Lockwood: practise. And the
Sarah Burrell: urgency of inclusive practise.
Joanne Lockwood: When we
Joanne Lockwood: began lockdown,
Joanne Lockwood: companies, organ businesses.
Sarah Burrell: Around the world had to change
Sarah Burrell: ways. Of doing things, and that
Joanne Lockwood: happened very fast because
Joanne Lockwood: they had to. And the
Joanne Lockwood: urgency of all that
Joanne Lockwood: drove. This monumental change,
Sarah Burrell: a shift in all. Practises,
Joanne Lockwood: almost remarkably fast,
Joanne Lockwood: because the importance. Of
Sarah Burrell: change and the urgency of
Sarah Burrell: change. For the first time, I believe,
Joanne Lockwood: became equal. And so the
Sarah Burrell: change that was urgently. Needed
Joanne Lockwood: came to fruition. And to me,
Sarah Burrell: that just demonstrated that
Sarah Burrell: workforce can are
Sarah Burrell: able to change, but the
Sarah Burrell: urgency of it all to happen.
Joanne Lockwood: Before COVID before pandemic, wasn't
Joanne Lockwood: urgent enough. And so what I'm trying to
Sarah Burrell: say. Here is that I think more
Joanne Lockwood: change. Has happened over the past
Sarah Burrell: four months. Than
Joanne Lockwood: decades because they've
Joanne Lockwood: had to do. It in order to continue business.
Sarah Burrell: And that means changing up your communication,
Sarah Burrell: changing up your flexibility, changing up
Sarah Burrell: your working from home,
Sarah Burrell: changing up your interest in well being,
Sarah Burrell: because people working from. Home were
Joanne Lockwood: immediately kind of
Joanne Lockwood: being thought of. Oh, okay. Is that person
Sarah Burrell: right there? Have they got what I need?
Sarah Burrell: Let's have a conversation. And
Sarah Burrell: inadvertently created
Sarah Burrell: flexibility, trust, empowerment,
Sarah Burrell: autonomy. Carefully choreographed.
Joanne Lockwood: But they had to, to accommodate
Joanne Lockwood: the. Change climate and the work life
Sarah Burrell: balance has had to change and it
Sarah Burrell: become paramount in our inclusion
Sarah Burrell: initiatives have inadvertently. Become paramount in everyday
Joanne Lockwood: working, which is awesome. And I think that that's a
Sarah Burrell: really cool, collaborative,
Sarah Burrell: cohesive effect of navigating
Sarah Burrell: this. Pandemic,
Joanne Lockwood: utilising and generating
Joanne Lockwood: technical, creating a. Technical
Sarah Burrell: transformation, really, about how we work.
Sarah Burrell: Brilliant. Amazing. That's what we've
Sarah Burrell: been trying to do for years. And finally it's
Sarah Burrell: coming out of the woodwork. Proactive engagement is happening,
Sarah Burrell: entities happening. All these things we've
Sarah Burrell: been fighting for, for years and years are actually
Sarah Burrell: starting to show their worth.
Sarah Burrell: And I think it's important to remember. I'll be going back
Sarah Burrell: down to sort of circle most.
Joanne Lockwood: Here. It is possible,
Joanne Lockwood: yes, some jobs are. Not possible
Sarah Burrell: to do biking home and.
Joanne Lockwood: People have been really
Joanne Lockwood: talents there and. We recognise
Sarah Burrell: privilege for that like never before.
Sarah Burrell: I just think it's really important to. Remember
Joanne Lockwood: what went on and what's going. On here
Sarah Burrell: in the workforce, change in. The workplace change,
Joanne Lockwood: a dynamic change that. Has to continue
Sarah Burrell: and I do think that is able to continue.
Sarah Burrell: We need to rip, hold tightly of.
Joanne Lockwood: What we've learned here. We can't let it go
Joanne Lockwood: because like. The Olympics, when the Olympics came to. London,
Joanne Lockwood: Joe, for our three
Joanne Lockwood: month period, we thought
Joanne Lockwood: access in London, brilliant. Oh,
Sarah Burrell: that's an accessible station. Excellent.
Joanne Lockwood: That means that people can navigate around
Joanne Lockwood: London easier. But
Sarah Burrell: when the mentality dropped, when the
Sarah Burrell: morale of empowering picks dropped in
Sarah Burrell: London, attitudes dropped as
Sarah Burrell: well. People forgot the
Sarah Burrell: empowerment and forgot the
Sarah Burrell: awesome people who were in
Sarah Burrell: parentheses in London, we
Sarah Burrell: wouldn't ever do.
Sarah Burrell: Maintaining that attitude of a
Sarah Burrell: positive. Is. Crucial
Sarah Burrell: to maintaining changes that are
Sarah Burrell: happening and to ensure they're happening in the right way.
Sarah Burrell: And it all comes back to engagement, proactive
Sarah Burrell: engagement. Yeah, definitely. And I've
Joanne Lockwood: heard that said before about London, how it had
Joanne Lockwood: all this potential and then it hasn't carried the momentum on and
Joanne Lockwood: austerity and other things kicked in. But there's no excuses.
Joanne Lockwood: We started making great progress. I think you're right about the
Joanne Lockwood: change within Covid, is that we've gone from
Joanne Lockwood: a country full of organisations, maybe in the world
Joanne Lockwood: where we started from a can't, we can't do that, we can't
Joanne Lockwood: do this. All these reasons about security, about
Joanne Lockwood: too hard to manage or we can't trust you. We've gone from that really
Joanne Lockwood: attitude overnight to we have to and we are.
Joanne Lockwood: And I really hope that we don't end up sliding
Joanne Lockwood: back into the old ways when people go back and get complacent again
Joanne Lockwood: and go, oh good, we got our office back, we're going to carry on. But
Joanne Lockwood: I'd like to think personally that people power
Joanne Lockwood: will now kick in and we'll say, we know what it's like now, we know
Joanne Lockwood: that we can do this, let's carry on. I think we're already seeing the shift
Joanne Lockwood: in some major organisations communicating. They're going to
Joanne Lockwood: continue their continuous work from home policy forever
Joanne Lockwood: and make flexible work in the norm and
Joanne Lockwood: I think that's best to be applauded. So tell me you've got
Joanne Lockwood: lots of things coming up. You were telling me earlier that you've got lots of
Joanne Lockwood: things you're doing, you're working on. So what are you up to?
Sarah Burrell: Can I just say one more thing and before I forget it? Yeah, go for
Joanne Lockwood: it. But this is it on this
Sarah Burrell: originally the strategic change that happened
Sarah Burrell: in the. First two months, two weeks,
Joanne Lockwood: first month. Of COVID was putting out fires, right?
Sarah Burrell: It was putting out fires and testing. The waters
Joanne Lockwood: and beginning to embed. But now
Joanne Lockwood: reaction has stopped and response.
Sarah Burrell: Has kicked in and embedding
Sarah Burrell: these innovative. Solutions that affect
Joanne Lockwood: change. So it's all about when
Joanne Lockwood: we were. Putting out fires and testing the
Sarah Burrell: waters. It was a temporary
Sarah Burrell: thing, right? But it's been going on for so
Sarah Burrell: long now. Actually, what you can write, it's
Sarah Burrell: starting. To embed, it's starting to become
Joanne Lockwood: less. Reactive, more responsive
Sarah Burrell: and therefore more inclusion. So, to
Sarah Burrell: answer your other question, what's going on right now?
Sarah Burrell: I'm developing
Sarah Burrell: guidelines to support
Sarah Burrell: inclusion online events and
Sarah Burrell: meetings to make
Sarah Burrell: guidance book. Really guidance on how
Joanne Lockwood: to make.
Sarah Burrell: Online. Meetings inclusive
Joanne Lockwood: through a physical sense, but
Joanne Lockwood: also through what we can do around.
Sarah Burrell: Communication in that angle. And so
Joanne Lockwood: I'm developing these guidelines
Joanne Lockwood: and I'm hosting an
Joanne Lockwood: event. The date is to
Sarah Burrell: be confirmed yet? As yet, but.
Joanne Lockwood: It'S a communication event
Joanne Lockwood: focused on
Joanne Lockwood: engagement. And I'm very excited to
Sarah Burrell: have from across the board,
Sarah Burrell: different, hugely different challenges
Sarah Burrell: and what people bring
Sarah Burrell: tonight and how we can get around the
Sarah Burrell: issues that. We face
Joanne Lockwood: through engagement. Challenges we face
Sarah Burrell: in engagement and communication. To
Joanne Lockwood: overcome those challenges through
Joanne Lockwood: developing systems. That work for
Sarah Burrell: people and not having. To
Joanne Lockwood: change themselves, but have the
Joanne Lockwood: technology. Adapt to what they
Sarah Burrell: need in a way
Sarah Burrell: of making inclusive practises
Sarah Burrell: mental health well being. A surrounding
Sarah Burrell: communication like anxiety, anxiety is a
Sarah Burrell: massive thing that is not associated much with.
Joanne Lockwood: Communication, but anxiety
Joanne Lockwood: is a. Huge thing that isn't
Sarah Burrell: talked about enough surrounding engagement.
Sarah Burrell: In the guidelines, I provide concrete examples,
Sarah Burrell: tangible, actionable examples of how we can. Do that
Joanne Lockwood: better and how we can. Better support others in
Sarah Burrell: this online work. Cultural
Joanne Lockwood: phase we're trying to shift. That's
Sarah Burrell: really exciting.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm really looking forward, really looking forward to finding out more about that as it
Joanne Lockwood: evolves. You've shared some
Joanne Lockwood: amazing thoughts today and some real depth of understanding and
Joanne Lockwood: insight into how organisations can engage
Joanne Lockwood: better with people, isn't it? And just trying to level this playing field, as you
Joanne Lockwood: talked about. So how do people get in touch with you if they want to
Joanne Lockwood: find out more about what you're doing or just look at the work you've been
Joanne Lockwood: doing? Great. So I have a
Sarah Burrell: website,
Sarah Burrell: sarahburrell.co.uk, and that has information on
Sarah Burrell: what I offer. So, strategic
Sarah Burrell: inclusion consultancy. I
Sarah Burrell: offer in all areas of strategy, relief,
Sarah Burrell: recruitment, personal development,
Sarah Burrell: engagement, communication,
Sarah Burrell: strategic change. I offer
Sarah Burrell: multiple training courses on unconscious bias,
Sarah Burrell: disability. I cover in depth
Sarah Burrell: and able to create bespoke training courses
Sarah Burrell: for tailored to your
Sarah Burrell: organisational needs. I cover mental health quite
Sarah Burrell: in depth. I
Joanne Lockwood: I. Obviously
Sarah Burrell: my events are publicised there.
Sarah Burrell: I have a twitter handle at
Sarah Burrell: inclusion underscore SB and
Sarah Burrell: my email Sarah Burrell. Sarah
Joanne Lockwood: change on.
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion at sarahburrell.co.uk, thank
Joanne Lockwood: you.
Joanne Lockwood: Burrell is B-U-R-R-E-L-L
Joanne Lockwood: sarahburrell.co.uk brilliant. All those details
Joanne Lockwood: will be in the show notes so people who want to look you up can
Joanne Lockwood: get hold of those from the show notes and well, thank you.
Joanne Lockwood: It's been an inspiration. It's so much we packed in there. I can't
Joanne Lockwood: believe we've been talking for over an hour.
Joanne Lockwood: So huge thanks to the listeners. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: sure you'll agree there's plenty to ponder there. So if you're
Joanne Lockwood: listening, please do subscribe to keep updated on future episodes
Joanne Lockwood: of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's B-I-T-E-S. Please tell your
Joanne Lockwood: friends, tell your colleagues, I assume you have some, and get. Them to subscribe as
Joanne Lockwood: well. Please do share this on social media platforms. I've got
Joanne Lockwood: a number of exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you'll be inspired by over
Joanne Lockwood: the next few weeks and months, and if you'd like to be a guest, let
Joanne Lockwood: me know. If you'd like to be sitting in the hot seat and having a
Joanne Lockwood: conversation with me, then. Brilliant. Get in touch. I also welcome
Joanne Lockwood: any feedback and suggestions you might have for future sews and how we can improve.
Joanne Lockwood: To jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Joanne Lockwood: so my name is Joanne Lockwood and it's been
Joanne Lockwood: an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next
Joanne Lockwood: time. Bye.