WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.970 --> 00:00:06.526 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for the 2 00:00:06.548 --> 00:00:10.206 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number of 3 00:00:10.228 --> 00:00:13.646 amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subject of 4 00:00:13.668 --> 00:00:17.486 inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for 5 00:00:17.508 --> 00:00:21.214 everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do 6 00:00:21.252 --> 00:00:22.494 drop me a line to 7 00:00:22.612 --> 00:00:26.050 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 8 00:00:26.130 --> 00:00:29.430 That's S-E-E Change Happen dot Co dot Uk. You'll be 9 00:00:29.770 --> 00:00:32.326 to get top of all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify. 10 00:00:34.082 --> 00:00:37.746 And the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab 11 00:00:37.778 --> 00:00:41.514 a decaf and let's get going. Today is 12 00:00:41.552 --> 00:00:45.366 episode 19 with the title creating a level of playing 13 00:00:45.398 --> 00:00:49.146 field in attitude and action. I have the 14 00:00:49.168 --> 00:00:52.814 absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Sarah Burrell. I 15 00:00:52.852 --> 00:00:56.602 met Sarah a few years back at a diversity and inclusion event in London 16 00:00:56.666 --> 00:01:00.394 and we've been friends ever since. Sarah describes herself 17 00:01:00.442 --> 00:01:04.050 as a trainer, consultant, event organiser and public 18 00:01:04.120 --> 00:01:07.554 speaker. I asked Sarah to describe her 19 00:01:07.592 --> 00:01:11.410 superpower and she said, active listening. 20 00:01:12.070 --> 00:01:15.442 Hello, Sarah. Welcome to the show. Hi, 21 00:01:15.496 --> 00:01:18.914 Jo to be here. Thank you for having me, 22 00:01:19.032 --> 00:01:22.726 Dave. No, it's absolute pleasure. I mean, we've been friends for a long 23 00:01:22.748 --> 00:01:26.390 time. So tell me, why 24 00:01:26.460 --> 00:01:30.154 is it so important that we need to create this level playing field, 25 00:01:30.272 --> 00:01:33.946 both attitude and action? I 26 00:01:33.968 --> 00:01:37.420 think that this ties in nicely to 27 00:01:38.030 --> 00:01:41.870 the recent issue 28 00:01:41.940 --> 00:01:45.742 that's been raised by Black Lives Matter, is 29 00:01:45.876 --> 00:01:49.360 that actually we have a systemic issue 30 00:01:49.730 --> 00:01:52.538 that is historic and we need to 31 00:01:52.724 --> 00:01:56.354 recognise where we stand within that 32 00:01:56.392 --> 00:01:59.646 and actually what we can do to empower 33 00:01:59.758 --> 00:02:03.170 others as well as ourselves. 34 00:02:03.670 --> 00:02:07.266 And I think that people don't realise. 35 00:02:07.378 --> 00:02:10.694 Without questioning themselves where they 36 00:02:10.732 --> 00:02:14.150 stand on. What context 37 00:02:14.490 --> 00:02:17.798 they can assist with 38 00:02:17.964 --> 00:02:21.666 this movement. Let's 39 00:02:21.698 --> 00:02:25.462 say. I think that the concept 40 00:02:25.526 --> 00:02:28.730 to get grounded in is 41 00:02:28.880 --> 00:02:32.302 privilege, how we can use it, 42 00:02:32.356 --> 00:02:35.550 because we talk about privilege 43 00:02:36.530 --> 00:02:39.360 day in, day out, and we don't really talk about how 44 00:02:40.050 --> 00:02:42.480 we can utilise it. And actually, 45 00:02:45.590 --> 00:02:46.820 part of the 46 00:02:49.510 --> 00:02:53.346 reason why we need an equal level is 47 00:02:53.368 --> 00:02:56.822 because we're not equal yet, we're not on that pain 48 00:02:56.876 --> 00:03:00.406 field. And so when we 49 00:03:00.588 --> 00:03:04.280 use our privilege in the way that we can, 50 00:03:04.650 --> 00:03:07.762 we learn to invest in 51 00:03:07.836 --> 00:03:11.034 potential instead of 52 00:03:11.232 --> 00:03:13.930 meritocracy. Actually, meritocracy 53 00:03:14.750 --> 00:03:17.740 only works when we start. 54 00:03:18.430 --> 00:03:21.582 At the same point. But 55 00:03:21.636 --> 00:03:25.258 unfortunately, differences 56 00:03:25.434 --> 00:03:28.494 in life, in 57 00:03:28.692 --> 00:03:31.978 support, in disability, 58 00:03:32.154 --> 00:03:35.810 in indifference, does not allow 59 00:03:35.880 --> 00:03:39.282 that equalness to pay out. We live 60 00:03:39.336 --> 00:03:42.734 in an unequal 61 00:03:42.862 --> 00:03:46.290 world and we need to champion 62 00:03:48.070 --> 00:03:51.510 and support and. Courage and 63 00:03:51.580 --> 00:03:54.470 invest in potential, 64 00:03:55.930 --> 00:03:59.162 as opposed. To always thinking 65 00:03:59.296 --> 00:04:03.098 about where we are actually 66 00:04:03.184 --> 00:04:06.714 at. That makes sense. It 67 00:04:06.752 --> 00:04:10.554 does. And you're definitely pushing some of my 68 00:04:10.592 --> 00:04:14.206 favourite buttons here and things I talk about. And let's go 69 00:04:14.228 --> 00:04:18.014 back. You mentioned about privilege. What does 70 00:04:18.052 --> 00:04:21.806 privilege mean to you as a white girl or a white woman? What does that 71 00:04:21.828 --> 00:04:25.394 mean to you? I think that my 72 00:04:25.432 --> 00:04:28.882 own privilege is. That, 73 00:04:29.016 --> 00:04:31.220 yes, I'm white, and yes, 74 00:04:32.790 --> 00:04:36.614 I have an education and I 75 00:04:36.652 --> 00:04:39.910 actually have a voice. And although my voice isn't. 76 00:04:41.210 --> 00:04:44.360 I got a speech impairment. Obviously, I meant to 77 00:04:45.050 --> 00:04:48.714 prefer. Meant to say that beforehand, but 78 00:04:48.752 --> 00:04:52.330 actually I have a speech impairment, 79 00:04:54.430 --> 00:04:57.340 which does. Bring up. 80 00:04:59.970 --> 00:05:03.520 My ways in which I am not 81 00:05:03.970 --> 00:05:07.742 equal. But let's go back to privilege a minute. So my 82 00:05:07.796 --> 00:05:11.342 privilege is that I have 83 00:05:11.396 --> 00:05:14.210 a monumental, 84 00:05:17.350 --> 00:05:20.900 monumental part of privilege is knowing where 85 00:05:21.270 --> 00:05:24.766 to invest in 86 00:05:24.888 --> 00:05:28.006 potential in the world. And I feel that 87 00:05:28.188 --> 00:05:30.550 my privilege. 88 00:05:31.370 --> 00:05:34.678 I discuss and talk about and 89 00:05:34.844 --> 00:05:37.480 push for change around 90 00:05:38.490 --> 00:05:42.262 things that are unequal. And I push 91 00:05:42.326 --> 00:05:45.900 for systemic change 92 00:05:46.350 --> 00:05:47.690 because. There'S 93 00:05:50.210 --> 00:05:53.854 too much of a difference to 94 00:05:53.892 --> 00:05:55.600 even think about 95 00:05:57.650 --> 00:06:01.374 being an equal pain to it 96 00:06:01.412 --> 00:06:04.580 yet. And so I use my 97 00:06:05.110 --> 00:06:08.498 voice, my platform, to 98 00:06:08.584 --> 00:06:12.254 empower other people to raise 99 00:06:12.302 --> 00:06:15.640 their voice as well and let them be heard. 100 00:06:16.810 --> 00:06:20.518 And I speak on 101 00:06:20.684 --> 00:06:23.990 behalf of those who do not feel 102 00:06:24.060 --> 00:06:27.786 confident enough to speak. And I speak for 103 00:06:27.808 --> 00:06:30.860 those who do not feel like they can. 104 00:06:32.510 --> 00:06:35.734 And I represent speech 105 00:06:35.782 --> 00:06:36.730 impairment. 106 00:06:40.370 --> 00:06:41.520 I am. 107 00:06:43.730 --> 00:06:46.720 Terrified of speaking 108 00:06:47.810 --> 00:06:51.626 in recorded sessions 109 00:06:51.738 --> 00:06:54.660 like this one, actually. But I feel that 110 00:06:55.110 --> 00:06:58.690 my passion overrides 111 00:07:02.070 --> 00:07:05.334 my fear. And an 112 00:07:05.372 --> 00:07:08.710 investment, if you like, is. 113 00:07:08.780 --> 00:07:12.438 More than my own 114 00:07:12.524 --> 00:07:16.294 negativity. It's much more. So this is much 115 00:07:16.332 --> 00:07:19.722 more important than thinking about my 116 00:07:19.776 --> 00:07:23.562 own speech and how I'm coming across, because 117 00:07:23.616 --> 00:07:27.354 the message is so important. So that's how 118 00:07:27.392 --> 00:07:30.460 I navigate my privilege in a bit. 119 00:07:31.330 --> 00:07:34.974 But there's still a lot more to go in my 120 00:07:35.012 --> 00:07:38.622 own head. But I do think if we 121 00:07:38.676 --> 00:07:41.790 can ground 122 00:07:42.470 --> 00:07:46.146 some of the elements of privilege. That 123 00:07:46.168 --> 00:07:50.002 we hold and put those into. 124 00:07:50.056 --> 00:07:53.102 Action to try and make a culture 125 00:07:53.246 --> 00:07:56.798 which does raise up others to an 126 00:07:56.824 --> 00:08:00.200 equal, we can start there. 127 00:08:02.170 --> 00:08:06.006 Yeah, I understand completely. What 128 00:08:06.028 --> 00:08:09.080 I found sometimes is that when you challenge somebody 129 00:08:10.090 --> 00:08:13.866 and say they're privileged, or you say, have you checked your privilege? Or 130 00:08:13.888 --> 00:08:17.658 do you understand your privilege? People get very defensive, don't they, when they 131 00:08:17.824 --> 00:08:21.646 ask to think about the privilege they have, almost saying that 132 00:08:21.668 --> 00:08:25.200 they don't feel they have a privilege. So would you say to them. 133 00:08:28.850 --> 00:08:32.030 I'm careful to avoid the direct 134 00:08:32.100 --> 00:08:35.746 question, because you're right, that can cause a 135 00:08:35.768 --> 00:08:39.138 conflict. And actually, that conflict goes 136 00:08:39.224 --> 00:08:42.610 like that. Uncomfort 137 00:08:43.510 --> 00:08:47.190 in the conversation can put 138 00:08:47.260 --> 00:08:50.742 a pause on rapport. And 139 00:08:50.796 --> 00:08:53.960 so through building 140 00:08:54.330 --> 00:08:55.960 rapport and trust 141 00:08:57.470 --> 00:09:00.890 in proactive engagement, 142 00:09:03.470 --> 00:09:06.060 builds that level of 143 00:09:06.750 --> 00:09:10.262 trust to enable us to have 144 00:09:10.416 --> 00:09:13.582 that conversation. And I think that it's important 145 00:09:13.716 --> 00:09:17.386 to point out it's like bias, isn't 146 00:09:17.418 --> 00:09:20.750 it? Unconscious bias 147 00:09:22.470 --> 00:09:25.570 is not a negative thing, necessarily, 148 00:09:25.910 --> 00:09:28.980 and privilege is not a negative. Thing, 149 00:09:29.750 --> 00:09:31.300 but people are. 150 00:09:33.270 --> 00:09:36.934 People associate the 151 00:09:36.972 --> 00:09:39.240 word bias or the. Word 152 00:09:40.010 --> 00:09:43.782 privilege with negativity, when 153 00:09:43.836 --> 00:09:47.646 actually. It'S 154 00:09:47.698 --> 00:09:50.570 the opposite. And we can utilise 155 00:09:51.070 --> 00:09:54.518 our privilege in. A positive 156 00:09:54.614 --> 00:09:56.140 way to 157 00:09:58.430 --> 00:10:02.080 shift culture forward. And so 158 00:10:03.010 --> 00:10:05.840 I avoid direct 159 00:10:06.210 --> 00:10:09.760 questions because. Of 160 00:10:10.930 --> 00:10:13.300 the want to build. 161 00:10:16.150 --> 00:10:19.954 A relationship before going 162 00:10:20.152 --> 00:10:23.940 deeper, because I think that's very important 163 00:10:24.790 --> 00:10:27.640 for people to have that level of trust 164 00:10:28.170 --> 00:10:31.800 and level of understanding before going into. 165 00:10:32.490 --> 00:10:36.134 Going into too much about that. 166 00:10:36.252 --> 00:10:39.974 I think it is a triggering thing with people in 167 00:10:40.012 --> 00:10:43.398 it, especially surrounding 168 00:10:43.574 --> 00:10:46.380 the Black lives Matter movement. It's become 169 00:10:48.510 --> 00:10:50.860 too right. Black Lives Matter 170 00:10:52.610 --> 00:10:56.000 has finally become 171 00:10:56.690 --> 00:10:57.710 global 172 00:11:00.050 --> 00:11:03.060 thing. And finally, 173 00:11:04.470 --> 00:11:08.082 this tragedy after 174 00:11:08.136 --> 00:11:11.540 tragedy we see in the world 175 00:11:12.790 --> 00:11:16.030 was blind eye to it. It was a blind 176 00:11:16.110 --> 00:11:19.894 eye. There was a bystander effect there. And 177 00:11:19.932 --> 00:11:23.014 now it's not so much. Now 178 00:11:23.052 --> 00:11:26.822 there's an anti racism movement rather 179 00:11:26.876 --> 00:11:30.460 than ignorance, rather than turning away, 180 00:11:31.310 --> 00:11:35.030 but learning how to implement 181 00:11:35.190 --> 00:11:38.410 day to day strategies that 182 00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:42.106 enable and empower systemic 183 00:11:42.138 --> 00:11:45.982 change. And don't just pay 184 00:11:46.036 --> 00:11:49.630 lip service to that. Yeah, 185 00:11:49.780 --> 00:11:53.198 for sure. I think you're right. It is about 186 00:11:53.364 --> 00:11:56.846 recognising. It's a systemic cultural 187 00:11:56.958 --> 00:12:00.754 change that needs to occur, not just in the individual who have someone 188 00:12:00.792 --> 00:12:04.514 who's privileged. Because I think most of the pushback you often get is, 189 00:12:04.552 --> 00:12:08.294 well, I'm not racist, but as you said, 190 00:12:08.332 --> 00:12:11.766 it's about being antiracist. It's about being proactive in 191 00:12:11.948 --> 00:12:15.606 your passion and your advocacy and stepping up and 192 00:12:15.628 --> 00:12:19.278 stepping forward, or leaning in, as the Zane 193 00:12:19.314 --> 00:12:23.066 goes, to give support to people, not just 194 00:12:23.168 --> 00:12:26.886 when we talk about racism, when we talk about attitudes towards disability 195 00:12:27.078 --> 00:12:30.766 or whatever that may be. Yeah. And I think 196 00:12:30.788 --> 00:12:33.440 that that's no more clear 197 00:12:34.290 --> 00:12:37.710 than talking about inequality 198 00:12:38.690 --> 00:12:41.280 in a general sense, because actually, 199 00:12:42.290 --> 00:12:46.130 when we look at disability, 200 00:12:47.270 --> 00:12:49.090 obviously I have a disability. 201 00:12:53.430 --> 00:12:57.270 But I fought 202 00:12:58.170 --> 00:13:01.958 to go to a. Mainstream school, 203 00:13:02.044 --> 00:13:05.302 and so because I knew 204 00:13:05.436 --> 00:13:09.162 that. I wanted 205 00:13:09.296 --> 00:13:12.794 an education, because I 206 00:13:12.832 --> 00:13:16.202 knew of negativity and 207 00:13:16.256 --> 00:13:18.860 the fight 208 00:13:20.210 --> 00:13:22.800 that. You have from the start, 209 00:13:24.210 --> 00:13:26.800 when you start at a different 210 00:13:27.730 --> 00:13:29.840 starting bites aren't the same. 211 00:13:32.630 --> 00:13:35.620 Having that knowledge, having that experience, 212 00:13:36.630 --> 00:13:39.540 does. Give huge. 213 00:13:42.710 --> 00:13:46.470 The gift of empathy. You get empathy from that and 214 00:13:46.620 --> 00:13:50.454 you learn to empathise with difference, you learn to 215 00:13:50.492 --> 00:13:53.640 empathise with people who experience 216 00:13:54.410 --> 00:13:57.430 maybe different challenges. 217 00:13:59.610 --> 00:14:02.680 But a challenge, and less. 218 00:14:03.550 --> 00:14:07.158 And. Encouraging 219 00:14:07.254 --> 00:14:09.660 people to 220 00:14:10.370 --> 00:14:14.030 be that fantastic. Person 221 00:14:14.100 --> 00:14:17.360 they can be in all part of it, 222 00:14:19.570 --> 00:14:23.138 to learn this, to learn how 223 00:14:23.224 --> 00:14:26.914 you learn best, how we can 224 00:14:26.952 --> 00:14:30.594 support you best, how you communicate in your 225 00:14:30.632 --> 00:14:33.906 way best. These are all things that we 226 00:14:34.088 --> 00:14:37.510 learn through a dialogue, a rapport, 227 00:14:38.010 --> 00:14:41.506 not through lip 228 00:14:41.538 --> 00:14:44.854 service, not through talking about it and 229 00:14:44.892 --> 00:14:48.714 actually having that open conversation with. Someone 230 00:14:48.832 --> 00:14:52.554 about how they would like 231 00:14:52.592 --> 00:14:56.314 to. Be known as who they 232 00:14:56.352 --> 00:15:00.022 want to be called. These are all questions that we can. 233 00:15:00.096 --> 00:15:03.440 Ask people to learn about 234 00:15:04.130 --> 00:15:07.758 them as. Individuals and create their 235 00:15:07.844 --> 00:15:11.434 individual story for that. And so that's 236 00:15:11.482 --> 00:15:14.900 how we can support people, 237 00:15:15.670 --> 00:15:19.506 by learning about them and learning. About what works for 238 00:15:19.528 --> 00:15:22.290 them and tailoring 239 00:15:23.110 --> 00:15:26.626 to that. And then that 240 00:15:26.728 --> 00:15:30.498 enables them, that puts them on 241 00:15:30.504 --> 00:15:33.270 a pedestal, not pedestal, 242 00:15:35.450 --> 00:15:38.970 that. Gives them that boost because 243 00:15:39.040 --> 00:15:42.250 they're learning how they learn. 244 00:15:42.400 --> 00:15:46.122 They're finding ways they need 245 00:15:46.176 --> 00:15:49.466 support. If you encourage that open 246 00:15:49.568 --> 00:15:53.262 dialogue, that open conversation and has 247 00:15:53.316 --> 00:15:56.766 you listening to, that's a 248 00:15:56.948 --> 00:16:00.462 brilliant way of not only 249 00:16:00.516 --> 00:16:04.050 building a person's confidence, 250 00:16:04.710 --> 00:16:07.700 but learning about. Yourself and learning about 251 00:16:09.350 --> 00:16:11.940 what differences you. Can do in your life. 252 00:16:13.510 --> 00:16:17.042 I'm talking about, it's about 253 00:16:17.096 --> 00:16:20.662 empowerment and change, isn't it? Oh, for sure. 254 00:16:20.716 --> 00:16:24.354 Yeah, it is. And being personally accountable 255 00:16:24.402 --> 00:16:28.246 for change, isn't it? Rather than saying it's somebody else's problem, I could 256 00:16:28.268 --> 00:16:32.058 be the one as well. And we can see that in other aspects of our 257 00:16:32.064 --> 00:16:34.762 life. And we talk about sustainability, we talk about 258 00:16:34.816 --> 00:16:38.602 environmental, we talk about other things that we can take personal 259 00:16:38.656 --> 00:16:42.302 responsibility for in terms of our own footprint. And 260 00:16:42.436 --> 00:16:45.726 we have to do the same in terms of our impact on others as well, 261 00:16:45.748 --> 00:16:48.400 don't we? Of course. And I think 262 00:16:50.850 --> 00:16:53.600 that's part of the ownership within 263 00:16:55.090 --> 00:16:57.920 the personal development part of it. 264 00:16:58.790 --> 00:17:02.546 It's owning what you can do for people, owning what you can 265 00:17:02.568 --> 00:17:03.460 do for yourself. 266 00:17:08.170 --> 00:17:11.782 When we are put at a level. 267 00:17:11.836 --> 00:17:15.462 Of discomfort, when we push through 268 00:17:15.516 --> 00:17:16.790 that discomfort 269 00:17:19.310 --> 00:17:21.690 and learn lessons about ourselves, 270 00:17:22.750 --> 00:17:26.300 we. Learn more about others by doing that, 271 00:17:27.310 --> 00:17:31.086 for sure. Let me ask you a couple of, couple of questions. I was 272 00:17:31.108 --> 00:17:34.846 talking to somebody yesterday. I was talking to somebody yesterday and we were talking 273 00:17:34.868 --> 00:17:37.360 about positive action and 274 00:17:38.610 --> 00:17:42.446 tokenism in hiring. And they sent me 275 00:17:42.468 --> 00:17:45.940 a question which was, there's two candidates. One 276 00:17:46.310 --> 00:17:49.634 is an able bodied white man 277 00:17:49.832 --> 00:17:53.330 and the other person is a person with a disability. 278 00:17:53.910 --> 00:17:57.622 And they both have equal skills to prayer. So 279 00:17:57.676 --> 00:18:00.998 in terms of positive action, why should they pick the 280 00:18:01.084 --> 00:18:03.030 disabled person, the person with a disability? 281 00:18:04.970 --> 00:18:08.574 Their argument was that the person without a disability 282 00:18:08.642 --> 00:18:11.926 would be easier to hire. But we want to challenge that, don't we? When we're 283 00:18:11.958 --> 00:18:15.766 looking at this. I don't 284 00:18:15.798 --> 00:18:19.260 think it's about easy to hire. I think it's about 285 00:18:20.530 --> 00:18:24.350 not wanting to change the status quo. 286 00:18:25.970 --> 00:18:29.482 And that's what challenge 287 00:18:29.546 --> 00:18:32.560 brings you. You have to change 288 00:18:33.430 --> 00:18:36.642 the mould and. That'S what 289 00:18:36.696 --> 00:18:39.954 people are starting to 290 00:18:39.992 --> 00:18:43.540 see. We all have 291 00:18:44.630 --> 00:18:47.430 something to bring to a role 292 00:18:48.570 --> 00:18:51.426 and positive 293 00:18:51.538 --> 00:18:55.080 action is a. 294 00:18:55.770 --> 00:18:58.540 Good thing if 295 00:18:59.150 --> 00:19:01.420 it's. If it is, 296 00:19:05.150 --> 00:19:08.250 if it's fully understood. 297 00:19:09.310 --> 00:19:12.874 Because some people 298 00:19:12.992 --> 00:19:16.462 see personal action as an 299 00:19:16.516 --> 00:19:19.120 unfair thing 300 00:19:20.770 --> 00:19:21.520 or 301 00:19:24.470 --> 00:19:28.100 a shift in inequality. But actually 302 00:19:29.670 --> 00:19:32.770 the rubbishmen are here. I'm going to stop for 1 minute 303 00:19:33.350 --> 00:19:36.786 while the rubbish. Don't 304 00:19:36.818 --> 00:19:40.626 worry, we've had people's mums on the conversation in the past, so it's 305 00:19:40.658 --> 00:19:41.240 okay. 306 00:19:45.450 --> 00:19:47.320 At least it's not the Amazon man 307 00:19:48.990 --> 00:19:50.460 or the Amazon person. 308 00:19:54.670 --> 00:19:58.060 This timing is perfect. Isn't it ridiculous? Yeah. 309 00:19:58.910 --> 00:20:02.666 This is an inclusive podcast. We're open to all contributions from 310 00:20:02.688 --> 00:20:05.280 more people. So don't worry about the rubbish man. 311 00:20:06.450 --> 00:20:08.240 Hoping they'll go away quickly. 312 00:20:12.770 --> 00:20:16.000 Yeah, it's okay, you're clear now. Go for it. Okay. 313 00:20:19.170 --> 00:20:22.578 Might come back for more. Hang on. You got a lot of 314 00:20:22.584 --> 00:20:25.826 rubbish. Right now. I can see 315 00:20:25.848 --> 00:20:29.666 them. Yeah. So this just to prove to everybody that 316 00:20:29.688 --> 00:20:33.478 this podcast is live and raw. We don't mess around with lots of 317 00:20:33.484 --> 00:20:36.946 edits and cuts. This is kind of as it happens, we roll as we roll, 318 00:20:36.978 --> 00:20:40.060 don't we? Yeah, apparently, yeah. Cool. 319 00:20:41.950 --> 00:20:45.738 I think they're migrating away, I think 320 00:20:45.824 --> 00:20:49.370 hopefully. I think that's an important part, 321 00:20:49.520 --> 00:20:52.446 lesson we've learned in this lockdown, that we have to bring our whole self to 322 00:20:52.468 --> 00:20:56.080 work and what that means, our whole home environment, and 323 00:20:56.530 --> 00:21:00.286 to sort of start judging people on their background, on 324 00:21:00.308 --> 00:21:03.830 Zoom calls, their children, their pets or other things going on in the 325 00:21:03.840 --> 00:21:07.598 background. I think we've got to learn to get over that now because this 326 00:21:07.604 --> 00:21:11.120 is the reality, isn't it? I mean, part of that which 327 00:21:11.890 --> 00:21:15.640 affects me, my. I 328 00:21:17.290 --> 00:21:18.840 host a 329 00:21:20.890 --> 00:21:22.920 peer to peer support group. 330 00:21:24.410 --> 00:21:28.250 I've been doing it for ever since 331 00:21:28.320 --> 00:21:31.500 COVID took hold. 332 00:21:32.590 --> 00:21:35.674 A weekly support group. And we have to 333 00:21:35.872 --> 00:21:39.658 navigate slow Internet. We have to 334 00:21:39.664 --> 00:21:43.440 gather people walking around 335 00:21:45.490 --> 00:21:49.086 with important things to say. And actually we just have 336 00:21:49.108 --> 00:21:51.440 to fight really 337 00:21:52.790 --> 00:21:56.306 the interference and 338 00:21:56.408 --> 00:21:59.822 listen to what everyone has to say despite 339 00:21:59.886 --> 00:22:03.620 their circumstance. And 340 00:22:05.030 --> 00:22:08.774 that is challenging because some people are walking around, you get 341 00:22:08.972 --> 00:22:12.386 kind of interruptions from left, right and centre and it's 342 00:22:12.418 --> 00:22:16.120 really challenging. But they also have really important 343 00:22:16.650 --> 00:22:19.740 things to say and you just have to 344 00:22:20.830 --> 00:22:24.300 try really hard to hear them. And 345 00:22:25.070 --> 00:22:26.570 that is how ending. 346 00:22:29.470 --> 00:22:32.942 You hear a lot of people saying that it's much 347 00:22:32.996 --> 00:22:36.746 easier for people who are disabled or with a disability, whichever phrase 348 00:22:36.778 --> 00:22:40.446 you like to use, whichever terminology. Now we're in 349 00:22:40.468 --> 00:22:44.246 lockdown, you're working in your home environment, therefore your environment 350 00:22:44.298 --> 00:22:48.114 is geared around your accessibility needs. Is that 351 00:22:48.152 --> 00:22:51.634 true or are we just generalising that it's going to be better for people with 352 00:22:51.672 --> 00:22:54.740 disabilities to work from home. I think. 353 00:22:59.850 --> 00:23:02.600 This is a complicated question, Dave, actually 354 00:23:04.570 --> 00:23:07.590 access and inclusion 355 00:23:08.010 --> 00:23:11.178 over different things. And 356 00:23:11.264 --> 00:23:13.580 although, yes. 357 00:23:15.390 --> 00:23:17.580 It can be more 358 00:23:18.270 --> 00:23:21.920 accessible to work from home for 359 00:23:22.610 --> 00:23:26.240 the. Single people, people with abilities, but. 360 00:23:28.930 --> 00:23:31.710 The isolation factor, 361 00:23:32.390 --> 00:23:33.140 the 362 00:23:38.870 --> 00:23:42.354 other things surrounding inclusion, the 363 00:23:42.392 --> 00:23:45.800 culture, the understanding and 364 00:23:46.170 --> 00:23:48.360 the trust, 365 00:23:50.730 --> 00:23:54.310 doing what we said before, asking no question, making 366 00:23:54.380 --> 00:23:58.154 sure support is there 367 00:23:58.192 --> 00:24:01.770 and making sure we have all we 368 00:24:01.840 --> 00:24:05.578 need, to have all the equipment we need 369 00:24:05.664 --> 00:24:08.934 to pursue in a comfortable 370 00:24:08.982 --> 00:24:12.542 way. I think that that's where we 371 00:24:12.596 --> 00:24:14.590 see positive 372 00:24:16.210 --> 00:24:19.550 shift with this, with COVID 373 00:24:21.010 --> 00:24:24.340 and I recently wrote an article about this. 374 00:24:25.110 --> 00:24:28.900 It was called silver linings of 375 00:24:29.270 --> 00:24:33.022 a pandemic, highlighting 376 00:24:33.086 --> 00:24:36.130 the almost inadvertent 377 00:24:39.050 --> 00:24:42.854 inclusive nature of workforces that has had to come 378 00:24:42.892 --> 00:24:46.600 about because people have children, people have 379 00:24:48.350 --> 00:24:51.100 people to take care of, people have 380 00:24:51.470 --> 00:24:54.710 different and require 381 00:24:54.790 --> 00:24:56.810 flexible working patterns. 382 00:24:57.470 --> 00:25:01.102 Surrounding Covid, there's been so 383 00:25:01.156 --> 00:25:02.430 many conversations 384 00:25:04.530 --> 00:25:08.314 surrounding empathy, being empathetic 385 00:25:08.362 --> 00:25:12.030 to our workforce because of 386 00:25:12.100 --> 00:25:15.790 this change, and I think that's a very positive 387 00:25:15.870 --> 00:25:19.060 thing. We have to 388 00:25:19.910 --> 00:25:23.310 grasp it, take hold and enhance 389 00:25:23.390 --> 00:25:26.520 it as we move forward 390 00:25:27.050 --> 00:25:30.280 now we're becoming a little bit more 391 00:25:32.330 --> 00:25:35.000 connected again. We had to make sure 392 00:25:35.770 --> 00:25:39.514 that. Those 393 00:25:39.712 --> 00:25:43.050 proactive engagement with people, the proactive, 394 00:25:45.870 --> 00:25:49.594 empathetic method we've had to 395 00:25:49.632 --> 00:25:53.326 take over the past four months to enable people to 396 00:25:53.348 --> 00:25:57.070 work from home, to enable people to work around their children, to 397 00:25:57.140 --> 00:26:00.974 enable things to continue. There has 398 00:26:01.012 --> 00:26:04.398 to have been that empowerment, trust, 399 00:26:04.484 --> 00:26:08.106 engagement to respond to the crisis, 400 00:26:08.298 --> 00:26:11.950 and that can create a more cohesive, more collaborative 401 00:26:12.290 --> 00:26:15.638