WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.840 --> 00:00:07.636 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the 2 00:00:07.658 --> 00:00:11.396 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number 3 00:00:11.418 --> 00:00:15.108 of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the 4 00:00:15.114 --> 00:00:18.948 subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a 5 00:00:18.954 --> 00:00:22.356 better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the 6 00:00:22.378 --> 00:00:25.996 future, then please do drop me a line to Joe Lock code 7 00:00:26.098 --> 00:00:28.664 at seechangehappen. Co UK. That's 8 00:00:28.712 --> 00:00:32.536 seechangehappen. Co UK. You'll 9 00:00:32.568 --> 00:00:36.044 be able to catch up with all of the previous shows on itunes, Spotify and 10 00:00:36.082 --> 00:00:39.808 the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a 11 00:00:39.814 --> 00:00:43.536 decaf and let's get going. Today 12 00:00:43.718 --> 00:00:46.588 is episode 20 with the title 13 00:00:46.764 --> 00:00:50.576 Antiracism isn't Rocket science. And I have the 14 00:00:50.598 --> 00:00:53.856 absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Mural von 15 00:00:53.888 --> 00:00:57.300 Hustard. I met Mirror recently at an online 16 00:00:57.370 --> 00:01:00.564 event and discovered we both share a passion for 17 00:01:00.602 --> 00:01:04.392 inclusion. Mirror describes herself as a vessel through which 18 00:01:04.446 --> 00:01:08.216 knowledge and wisdom manifests. When 19 00:01:08.238 --> 00:01:11.704 I asked Meryl to describe her superpower, she said she 20 00:01:11.742 --> 00:01:15.304 creates solid ground. Hello, 21 00:01:15.342 --> 00:01:18.780 Meryl. Welcome to the show. Hey, Joe. 22 00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:22.350 Hi, Jo. Hey. Good to be 23 00:01:23.760 --> 00:01:27.004 welcome. So, who is Mural? Tell me a bit about 24 00:01:27.042 --> 00:01:30.796 yourself. Well, like you 25 00:01:30.818 --> 00:01:34.176 said, Mirror von Hasttert, I live in 26 00:01:34.198 --> 00:01:37.650 Rotterdam, in the Netherlands. I'm a 27 00:01:38.740 --> 00:01:41.540 wise woman, a crone. 28 00:01:42.440 --> 00:01:45.670 I turned 51 just a couple of days ago. 29 00:01:46.920 --> 00:01:50.436 I'm a proud woman, I'm a single parent 30 00:01:50.538 --> 00:01:53.924 and I have a beautiful son. That's 31 00:01:53.972 --> 00:01:57.704 me privately. And I have my own 32 00:01:57.742 --> 00:02:01.412 company called Solid Ground, which, again, comes back. We'll 33 00:02:01.476 --> 00:02:04.904 talk about that a little bit later. I 34 00:02:04.942 --> 00:02:07.630 do energy work and spiritual work, 35 00:02:09.440 --> 00:02:12.828 where I guide people through 36 00:02:12.994 --> 00:02:15.710 well, any problems they have, 37 00:02:17.040 --> 00:02:19.840 something that comes up in their life when they get stuck, 38 00:02:21.060 --> 00:02:23.490 that's my business. 39 00:02:25.300 --> 00:02:29.136 So you said you're a crone? I 40 00:02:29.158 --> 00:02:32.864 know of that word, but what do you mean by a wise 41 00:02:32.912 --> 00:02:36.516 woman and crone? Well, it's the 42 00:02:36.538 --> 00:02:40.356 one thing I've always been passionate about. As 43 00:02:40.378 --> 00:02:44.084 a little girl, I knew I was going to thrive when I was older 44 00:02:44.212 --> 00:02:47.960 and I always wanted to be a wise woman, a crone, 45 00:02:48.620 --> 00:02:52.132 somebody with knowledge and sharing that knowledge 46 00:02:52.196 --> 00:02:55.652 or being of service, not even sharing 47 00:02:55.716 --> 00:02:59.436 knowledge that I have myself, but that comes through me. Like you said, I 48 00:02:59.458 --> 00:03:03.224 feel like a vessel where knowledge and wisdom 49 00:03:03.272 --> 00:03:06.764 comes through. I always wanted to be this, but it took me a very long 50 00:03:06.802 --> 00:03:10.560 time. Well, of course, in years, but also to 51 00:03:10.630 --> 00:03:13.964 feel confident enough to stand my ground 52 00:03:14.012 --> 00:03:17.584 there. Now I'm 50, I'm this 53 00:03:17.622 --> 00:03:21.152 young, new chrome yay. I'm happy about 54 00:03:21.206 --> 00:03:24.964 that. So I'm actually finally in the place 55 00:03:25.002 --> 00:03:28.816 where I wanted to be. You were born 56 00:03:28.848 --> 00:03:32.630 to be 50. Basically, you were born to be in your have 57 00:03:33.560 --> 00:03:37.016 this lived experience that you can share and amplify for others. 58 00:03:37.118 --> 00:03:40.836 Yeah, I've always wanted to be this and I'm 59 00:03:40.868 --> 00:03:44.424 feeling like I've got a lot more years to go, so I'm finally 60 00:03:44.542 --> 00:03:48.316 there. This has all been preparation before. It so when I 61 00:03:48.338 --> 00:03:51.976 turned 30, I didn't have that, like, oh, God, I'm turning 30, I'm turning 62 00:03:52.008 --> 00:03:54.990 old. I'm actually quite going like, Yay. Finally. 63 00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:00.670 Superb. I know what you mean. 64 00:04:03.540 --> 00:04:07.250 Each decade you find something more about yourself, don't you? And I think 65 00:04:07.700 --> 00:04:11.330 I've certainly learned a lot more about myself since I turned 50. And 66 00:04:13.700 --> 00:04:16.436 I think 50 is the new 40. We used to say this about our 40s, 67 00:04:16.458 --> 00:04:19.590 but I think we're much wiser now. In our 50s. 68 00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:25.380 I've got this new sense of energy, this new 69 00:04:25.530 --> 00:04:29.128 sense of being that isn't so rocky. I don't want to 70 00:04:29.134 --> 00:04:32.884 be in my 20s again. I liked it and I liked being a youth, 71 00:04:32.932 --> 00:04:36.484 but it's so uncertain. I'm not that uncertain anymore. 72 00:04:36.612 --> 00:04:40.380 I know who I am and what the world. So I can now 73 00:04:40.450 --> 00:04:44.060 exchange between the world and me more than I could 74 00:04:44.130 --> 00:04:47.790 when I was younger. And I've got something to say, 75 00:04:49.380 --> 00:04:52.912 not just stuff that I've learned, but also 76 00:04:53.046 --> 00:04:56.636 I listen much better to people because you're 77 00:04:56.668 --> 00:05:00.416 not constantly taking it personal. Because I know who I 78 00:05:00.438 --> 00:05:04.272 am, I've learned. Very good point. 79 00:05:04.326 --> 00:05:07.952 Yes. I think we stopped trying to be anybody else other than ourselves, 80 00:05:08.016 --> 00:05:11.796 haven't we? Yeah, we don't need to be. We've been other 81 00:05:11.818 --> 00:05:15.656 people all our lives. A parent, a child, a 82 00:05:15.678 --> 00:05:19.130 sibling. And now we're us, aren't we? I think that's where it comes in. 83 00:05:19.500 --> 00:05:23.304 Fantastic. Very good age. So I actually think 84 00:05:23.342 --> 00:05:27.176 it's better than I thought it was. Of course, as a young girl, you 85 00:05:27.198 --> 00:05:30.668 don't know what it's like of a young person. You don't know what that's going 86 00:05:30.674 --> 00:05:34.124 to be like. But I want to tell my 87 00:05:34.242 --> 00:05:37.644 younger self, or even other young people going like, but this is 88 00:05:37.682 --> 00:05:41.312 awesome. Hurry, come 50 89 00:05:41.366 --> 00:05:41.970 quickly. 90 00:05:45.460 --> 00:05:48.800 Don't worry about it. It's good. Yeah. Welcome to the club. 91 00:05:51.320 --> 00:05:54.710 Fantastic. So we got chatting the other day 92 00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:59.232 at this online event, and antiracism 93 00:05:59.296 --> 00:06:01.830 is something that we, as white people, 94 00:06:03.340 --> 00:06:07.044 probably don't understand enough. So why isn't it rocket 95 00:06:07.092 --> 00:06:10.680 science? Why isn't it rocket science? 96 00:06:13.500 --> 00:06:16.780 If you take off the blinders 97 00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:22.190 that you can do yourself, it is nothing that is 98 00:06:22.960 --> 00:06:26.350 out there that you don't know you already know. 99 00:06:26.960 --> 00:06:30.736 All the information is there. There's nothing you have to do, you 100 00:06:30.758 --> 00:06:32.370 just have to see it. 101 00:06:34.900 --> 00:06:38.160 That is, of course, difficult because there are a lot of 102 00:06:38.310 --> 00:06:40.130 layers put upon us, 103 00:06:42.760 --> 00:06:46.436 indoctrination and all sorts of ideas and 104 00:06:46.458 --> 00:06:49.990 stuff that are put on top of us. 105 00:06:50.440 --> 00:06:53.776 But your soul knows, so there's nothing new 106 00:06:53.898 --> 00:06:56.090 about this. There's nothing that 107 00:06:57.500 --> 00:07:01.192 you won't understand. It's your 108 00:07:01.246 --> 00:07:04.984 defence mechanism that kicks in, but that's it. The 109 00:07:05.022 --> 00:07:08.780 rest of it, you just have to listen and then go like, 110 00:07:08.850 --> 00:07:12.492 oh, but that's actually quite normal, that people 111 00:07:12.546 --> 00:07:16.376 are the same, everybody's the same. That skin colour doesn't 112 00:07:16.408 --> 00:07:19.920 do anything. There's nothing 113 00:07:19.990 --> 00:07:23.760 there. When we are young 114 00:07:23.910 --> 00:07:27.632 and we're going to school for the first time, you 115 00:07:27.686 --> 00:07:31.460 are taught to help others, to see people as equals. 116 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:36.900 As young kids, we have no 117 00:07:36.970 --> 00:07:40.470 Philtre put in there yet 118 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:46.104 to see people as different. So if you go back to 119 00:07:46.142 --> 00:07:49.576 that and feel like, oh, yeah, but I never 120 00:07:49.758 --> 00:07:53.480 saw my friend different because she or he 121 00:07:53.550 --> 00:07:57.112 had a different skin colour, it was, know, Jack 122 00:07:57.176 --> 00:08:00.956 or whoever daisy it was. And if you go 123 00:08:00.978 --> 00:08:04.750 back to that, that's that's, then from there, you can understand 124 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:06.750 all, uh, 125 00:08:08.500 --> 00:08:11.664 different strategies that are used to put 126 00:08:11.782 --> 00:08:15.010 racism and white supremacy in place. 127 00:08:16.420 --> 00:08:19.570 Does that make sense to you? Yeah, it does. But 128 00:08:21.160 --> 00:08:24.912 as a white person myself, it's. 129 00:08:24.976 --> 00:08:28.772 Really. Challenging to sort of 130 00:08:28.826 --> 00:08:32.550 think about racism. And it's not about ourselves. It's about 131 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:37.000 the societal and structural racism more 132 00:08:37.070 --> 00:08:40.456 as much as it is about the casual racism and the 133 00:08:40.478 --> 00:08:44.168 vindictive or discriminatory racism that occurs in day to day life. 134 00:08:44.334 --> 00:08:47.836 So as a white person, how do I drill through that? How do I try 135 00:08:47.858 --> 00:08:51.708 and really unpack about? Because it's not about the 136 00:08:51.714 --> 00:08:55.516 racism I've caused, is it? It's about the racism that exists in society and 137 00:08:55.538 --> 00:08:59.264 the inequity that occurs. Yeah, I think that 138 00:08:59.382 --> 00:09:01.490 white people take it very personal 139 00:09:03.140 --> 00:09:06.832 because you take it as an individual, as an individual CEO. But 140 00:09:06.886 --> 00:09:10.488 I don't have these beliefs. I don't see you any differently. 141 00:09:10.604 --> 00:09:13.590 But it's a system. It's a system there 142 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:16.710 that you were born into. 143 00:09:18.040 --> 00:09:21.760 It's not something that you did. You didn't 144 00:09:21.920 --> 00:09:25.304 think like, okay, let's discriminate against 145 00:09:25.502 --> 00:09:29.064 whomever or whatever it could be 146 00:09:29.102 --> 00:09:32.890 gender or sexuality. You don't think 147 00:09:34.780 --> 00:09:38.620 consciously think, okay, let's discriminate. It's a system 148 00:09:38.690 --> 00:09:42.536 that you're brought into. Like, you go to school and you learn about your ABCs 149 00:09:42.568 --> 00:09:46.268 and you learn about calculation. And through 150 00:09:46.354 --> 00:09:49.916 all these messages you get how society 151 00:09:50.028 --> 00:09:53.740 works. And then you start as a child, you start relating 152 00:09:53.900 --> 00:09:57.564 to, okay, my parents ask this of me, or Society asks 153 00:09:57.612 --> 00:10:01.300 that of me. And that's how you learn 154 00:10:01.370 --> 00:10:04.964 how the world works. So what white 155 00:10:05.002 --> 00:10:08.820 people forget is that there is 156 00:10:08.890 --> 00:10:12.340 white culture. It 157 00:10:12.410 --> 00:10:16.090 exists. We don't see it, but 158 00:10:16.780 --> 00:10:20.328 it's the set of values and norms and all that stuff 159 00:10:20.414 --> 00:10:24.040 that you get imprinted. And that 160 00:10:24.110 --> 00:10:26.670 imprint is how you act in the world. 161 00:10:27.280 --> 00:10:30.988 And that is not your soul. It has nothing to do 162 00:10:31.074 --> 00:10:34.844 with you being a human. That's how I see 163 00:10:34.882 --> 00:10:38.684 it. So is that the same as 164 00:10:38.722 --> 00:10:42.448 kind of the default is white? So if we're looking for 165 00:10:42.614 --> 00:10:45.970 a photograph, the Default photograph is of a white person. 166 00:10:47.140 --> 00:10:50.636 We're looking at pictures of in your various faith groups, 167 00:10:50.748 --> 00:10:54.528 pictures of our faith leaders, of historical faith leaders. They're 168 00:10:54.544 --> 00:10:58.064 always shown as white people, aren't they, with beards and golden 169 00:10:58.112 --> 00:11:01.956 hair. So we've built this very whitest default sort 170 00:11:01.978 --> 00:11:05.096 of way of looking at the world, haven't we? And when we think as a 171 00:11:05.118 --> 00:11:08.776 white person, we always think about white people. We don't think in 172 00:11:08.798 --> 00:11:12.376 our narrative about non white people as part of our 173 00:11:12.398 --> 00:11:14.760 picture, do we? No, we don't. 174 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:20.136 You don't even realise that it happens because you're 175 00:11:20.168 --> 00:11:23.212 so used to all the books being with the same 176 00:11:23.266 --> 00:11:26.830 pictures and the movies being about. 177 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:31.984 There are a little bit of in the background or on the 178 00:11:32.022 --> 00:11:35.360 edges, there are some people of colour there 179 00:11:35.430 --> 00:11:39.248 like it's like you know that there's a little bit of a 180 00:11:39.254 --> 00:11:42.708 blanket of the world with different groups, but 181 00:11:42.874 --> 00:11:46.644 the narrative is white. But we never call 182 00:11:46.682 --> 00:11:50.310 it that way. We never mention it, that 183 00:11:51.560 --> 00:11:54.090 you are a specific group. 184 00:11:56.140 --> 00:11:59.544 That's where the how do you say 185 00:11:59.582 --> 00:12:02.932 that decolonization 186 00:12:03.076 --> 00:12:06.572 starts when dismantling starts when you 187 00:12:06.626 --> 00:12:10.204 realise that you are of white culture. And 188 00:12:10.242 --> 00:12:14.076 then you can start to see the difference between system 189 00:12:14.178 --> 00:12:16.990 and the individual and how that works. 190 00:12:20.100 --> 00:12:23.564 You're aware of my gender transition and my background. 191 00:12:23.692 --> 00:12:27.456 And ideally, in the same way we see white as 192 00:12:27.478 --> 00:12:31.156 default, we often see men male as default as well. In a lot of 193 00:12:31.178 --> 00:12:34.996 narratives in movies and the heroes, and when 194 00:12:35.018 --> 00:12:38.484 we're looking at roles and expectations, man is kind of the 195 00:12:38.522 --> 00:12:41.750 default. And having 196 00:12:43.160 --> 00:12:46.936 moved to the other side for whatever better way of describing it, I 197 00:12:46.958 --> 00:12:50.424 now see that default from a different 198 00:12:50.462 --> 00:12:54.248 angle. Whereas once I was immersed in that and saw no problem, 199 00:12:54.414 --> 00:12:58.156 now I'm now feeling the wind in 200 00:12:58.178 --> 00:13:00.910 my face as I travel 201 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:05.788 of seeing all this inequity of representation. I don't 202 00:13:05.794 --> 00:13:08.764 want to get off the topic of racism and I'm not trying to talk here 203 00:13:08.802 --> 00:13:12.220 about gender, but I think unless you've 204 00:13:13.280 --> 00:13:17.088 come out of a place where you are in the default and gone to a 205 00:13:17.094 --> 00:13:20.336 place where you're not the default, you cannot understand what it's like to be the 206 00:13:20.358 --> 00:13:23.844 default, if that makes sense. So for white people like 207 00:13:23.882 --> 00:13:27.476 ourselves, we can never stop being white and 208 00:13:27.498 --> 00:13:31.316 therefore our privilege is the same as water and 209 00:13:31.338 --> 00:13:35.016 oxygen. It's all around us and we can't tell it's there because we 210 00:13:35.038 --> 00:13:38.776 can't see it. Yeah, you can 211 00:13:38.798 --> 00:13:42.250 never get away from it. It is not something that you take off 212 00:13:43.500 --> 00:13:46.892 the privilege is there. You can't put it away. You can't say 213 00:13:46.946 --> 00:13:50.684 to, when you're going through security at an airport, say 214 00:13:50.722 --> 00:13:54.350 to this officer that's standing there, well, treat me 215 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:58.430 like the person you did with a different skin colour. 216 00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:02.544 It doesn't work that way. So that's also why you don't see 217 00:14:02.582 --> 00:14:06.432 it. I think that you touched upon something that I was thinking 218 00:14:06.486 --> 00:14:10.224 about. Just thinking about. There needs to be a bit 219 00:14:10.262 --> 00:14:13.984 of a breakdown somewhere. 220 00:14:14.112 --> 00:14:17.732 And I'm saying what you just said, 221 00:14:17.786 --> 00:14:21.430 you've had that gender change. 222 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:25.610 I've had some breakdown in my life too, 223 00:14:26.220 --> 00:14:30.004 like divorce and losing 224 00:14:30.052 --> 00:14:33.784 a job. When the crisis went on about ten 225 00:14:33.822 --> 00:14:37.340 years ago, it started an economical crisis. 226 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:41.436 There needs to be a bit of a breakdown that gives you 227 00:14:41.538 --> 00:14:45.244 an entry towards seeing the world a little 228 00:14:45.282 --> 00:14:49.008 bit the larger scope of 229 00:14:49.014 --> 00:14:50.770 the world. So, 230 00:14:53.060 --> 00:14:56.672 strangely enough, you have an advantage when you are 231 00:14:56.726 --> 00:15:00.290 not the standard in the world. 232 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:05.552 In white people. Of course there's a standard. We have a hierarchy 233 00:15:05.696 --> 00:15:09.264 within white people too. But nobody fully 234 00:15:09.312 --> 00:15:13.084 fits this standard. But the amount that you don't 235 00:15:13.152 --> 00:15:16.410 fit into that standard gives you the opportunity 236 00:15:16.940 --> 00:15:20.696 to see from a different point of 237 00:15:20.718 --> 00:15:24.472 view, see different perspectives. That also means 238 00:15:24.526 --> 00:15:27.948 that you can pick up on different 239 00:15:28.034 --> 00:15:31.516 perspectives and then you start seeing then you can 240 00:15:31.698 --> 00:15:35.452 it's like something that you you turn 241 00:15:35.506 --> 00:15:39.250 out of yourself, you, you know, like and that's not the right word. 242 00:15:42.340 --> 00:15:46.176 You zoom out of yourself a little bit and 243 00:15:46.198 --> 00:15:49.996 that's this break, this breakdown of norms 244 00:15:50.028 --> 00:15:53.444 and values that helps you to see other 245 00:15:53.482 --> 00:15:55.140 plights, other narratives. 246 00:15:58.040 --> 00:16:01.744 If you look at some of the terminology and phraseologies that's evolved 247 00:16:01.792 --> 00:16:05.256 over the years. So we talk about people of 248 00:16:05.278 --> 00:16:08.040 colour, POC, we talk about BAME, 249 00:16:09.100 --> 00:16:12.856 we talk about BME, we now talk about BIPOC, we talk about all 250 00:16:12.878 --> 00:16:16.184 these sort of various terms for categorising people who are not 251 00:16:16.222 --> 00:16:19.724 white, whereas there is no kind of categorization as 252 00:16:19.762 --> 00:16:23.452 such for whiteness, is there? We don't talk about a bit 253 00:16:23.506 --> 00:16:27.292 white or very white or English white or brown or 254 00:16:27.346 --> 00:16:30.556 French white. We just are again, it's 255 00:16:30.588 --> 00:16:34.176 default. Some of these terms, I understand, are 256 00:16:34.198 --> 00:16:37.552 quite maybe not offensive to some people, but they certainly 257 00:16:37.606 --> 00:16:41.364 are stereotyping people, they're grouping people that 258 00:16:41.402 --> 00:16:44.884 not every person who is not white is the same. And 259 00:16:45.002 --> 00:16:48.736 we kind of marginalise and erase lived experiences by categorising 260 00:16:48.768 --> 00:16:52.256 people as black, Asian, minority, 261 00:16:52.368 --> 00:16:55.560 ethnics. And that so 262 00:16:55.710 --> 00:16:59.496 understates people's lived experience as a community, doesn't it? 263 00:16:59.598 --> 00:17:02.664 Yeah, and it does, because 264 00:17:02.862 --> 00:17:06.680 you have white as the default. 265 00:17:07.580 --> 00:17:11.080 It all is related to as not white 266 00:17:11.230 --> 00:17:14.492 or default. In the centering is still 267 00:17:14.546 --> 00:17:18.352 white. That is like you put yourself in the centre 268 00:17:18.406 --> 00:17:21.920 of the world and then everything has to relate to you. 269 00:17:21.990 --> 00:17:25.170 And that's how we do it. At first 270 00:17:25.540 --> 00:17:27.810 it's really weird, actually. Yeah, 271 00:17:29.380 --> 00:17:32.832 I started laughing a little bit white, less 272 00:17:32.886 --> 00:17:34.610 white, that kind of thing. 273 00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:39.668 Actually, there is a little bit of it 274 00:17:39.754 --> 00:17:43.510 because I live in the Netherlands and we have some 275 00:17:44.940 --> 00:17:48.744 Polish people here. We don't consider them white, we 276 00:17:48.782 --> 00:17:52.360 consider them foreigners. So 277 00:17:52.430 --> 00:17:55.450 there is a hierarchy within white. 278 00:17:57.020 --> 00:18:00.796 I had this conversation about a year ago with someone and we're talking about 279 00:18:00.818 --> 00:18:04.504 inclusion and there are good immigrants 280 00:18:04.632 --> 00:18:08.444 and there are bad immigrants, aren't there? And I was talking to this person 281 00:18:08.482 --> 00:18:11.800 who was Dutch themselves. I said, well, as a Dutch person in the UK, you're 282 00:18:11.800 --> 00:18:15.568 a good immigrant. We like Dutch people, French people we 283 00:18:15.574 --> 00:18:18.556 make our own jokes about, and Germans we make our own jokes about, and Italians 284 00:18:18.588 --> 00:18:21.812 we make other jokes around. But if you came 285 00:18:21.866 --> 00:18:25.140 from the old Eastern Europe 286 00:18:25.560 --> 00:18:28.592 poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, 287 00:18:28.736 --> 00:18:32.480 anywhere that is maybe east of Germany, 288 00:18:32.560 --> 00:18:36.240 effectively what would be considered maybe part of the Soviet Union or part of 289 00:18:36.250 --> 00:18:37.450 that kind of 290 00:18:39.500 --> 00:18:43.304 70s image of communism we see these 291 00:18:43.342 --> 00:18:46.810 people as less intelligent. We see them as 292 00:18:48.540 --> 00:18:51.564 chancers, often maybe more 293 00:18:51.602 --> 00:18:55.036 crooked. And we cast these doubts on people who 294 00:18:55.058 --> 00:18:58.732 are not good immigrants. And 295 00:18:58.866 --> 00:19:02.656 it's shocking to hear the language in the media, the way that people are 296 00:19:02.678 --> 00:19:06.256 described and the way that their accents are kind 297 00:19:06.278 --> 00:19:08.370 of demonised in a way. 298 00:19:11.140 --> 00:19:14.948 People would say people from Estonia are good immigrants because they're kind of clean 299 00:19:15.034 --> 00:19:18.836 and very well spoken, whereas someone from Lithuania sounds 300 00:19:18.858 --> 00:19:22.164 a bit darker. There's a whole load of new 301 00:19:22.202 --> 00:19:25.864 stereotypes are coming now and again. Racism is more 302 00:19:25.902 --> 00:19:29.684 than just white people and black people. There's also racism 303 00:19:29.732 --> 00:19:32.920 within communities, within faith groups, within religions. Isn't. 304 00:19:35.020 --> 00:19:38.828 Have probably in England the same. But I'm going 305 00:19:38.834 --> 00:19:42.684 to ask you about that because in the Netherlands, within the country, 306 00:19:42.802 --> 00:19:46.300 there's also we have these 307 00:19:46.370 --> 00:19:49.648 different accents that we consider not 308 00:19:49.734 --> 00:19:51.970 so bright, not so 309 00:19:53.060 --> 00:19:56.672 and I lived in Thailand for a while 310 00:19:56.726 --> 00:20:00.576 and I worked there and it's a huge country, of 311 00:20:00.598 --> 00:20:03.988 course, not one of the biggest, but huge country. And then 312 00:20:04.154 --> 00:20:07.270 I was thinking about the Netherlands. If you do, 313 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:12.020 you're through it, right? It's like one and a half hours 314 00:20:12.090 --> 00:20:15.050 or almost maybe two, and it's done. 315 00:20:15.820 --> 00:20:19.064 And then we have this. Then I think 316 00:20:19.102 --> 00:20:22.856 about the way we categorise and 317 00:20:22.878 --> 00:20:26.616 label people just from the area they're from. It is the 318 00:20:26.638 --> 00:20:28.780 Netherlands. We're a post stamp. 319 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:34.156 But even there, there are parts from the Netherlands. Where 320 00:20:34.178 --> 00:20:37.916 you're from means that you're a certain kind of way or you think 321 00:20:37.938 --> 00:20:41.570 that you're more intelligent or not. Is this going on in England too? 322 00:20:42.420 --> 00:20:46.208 Yeah, I think we would call it white supremacy. We have 323 00:20:46.214 --> 00:20:49.728 a lot of English nationalism going on about anything 324 00:20:49.814 --> 00:20:53.108 non British is kind of not as good. 325 00:20:53.194 --> 00:20:56.516 And inevitably that leads people to be 326 00:20:56.538 --> 00:21:00.276 racist because what they mean when they talk about being British, they 327 00:21:00.298 --> 00:21:04.100 mean white British, they don't mean whatever 328 00:21:04.170 --> 00:21:07.876 British. There's still this kind of if you're 329 00:21:07.908 --> 00:21:11.656 not white and British, you're not British. And there's a 330 00:21:11.678 --> 00:21:15.256 certain section of society that still sees that and that's abhorrent to 331 00:21:15.278 --> 00:21:18.684 me. But again, part of this white is 332 00:21:18.722 --> 00:21:22.300 default and England is a united 333 00:21:22.370 --> 00:21:26.092 kingdom, is a kind of a white default society and it's taking 334 00:21:26.146 --> 00:21:29.856 a lot to change people's minds. And there's a lot 335 00:21:29.878 --> 00:21:33.330 of rejection of the Black Lives Matter movement. There's a lot of fight back 336 00:21:35.540 --> 00:21:39.148 against this movement by a sect of British society. 337 00:21:39.244 --> 00:21:43.056 And it's shocking to see, but those kind 338 00:21:43.078 --> 00:21:46.148 of attitudes still exist. But they do. We saw it with Brexit, we saw it 339 00:21:46.154 --> 00:21:49.988 with this nationalistic protectionism. We want to 340 00:21:49.994 --> 00:21:53.684 protect this country for the white British people. And if you're not 341 00:21:53.722 --> 00:21:57.130 white British, then you should go. 342 00:21:58.460 --> 00:22:02.196 And it's hard fighting back around that. And I don't even necessarily think that's 343 00:22:02.228 --> 00:22:05.912 privilege speaking. In fact, a lot of these people, I would say, are not speaking 344 00:22:05.966 --> 00:22:09.612 from a point of privilege, they're speaking from a point of nationalism. Almost 345 00:22:09.666 --> 00:22:13.388 like this, I dare say. I don't want to 346 00:22:13.554 --> 00:22:17.384 stress too far to say fascist views, extreme right wing 347 00:22:17.432 --> 00:22:21.216 views, but a lot 348 00:22:21.238 --> 00:22:24.450 of it is spelling from that, I think. Yeah, 349 00:22:25.460 --> 00:22:27.840 it's the same in the Netherlands. 350 00:22:29.700 --> 00:22:33.524 England and the Netherlands have a bit of have 351 00:22:33.562 --> 00:22:36.852 similarities where they colonised parts of this 352 00:22:36.906 --> 00:22:40.420 world and they called it the part of their kingdom. 353 00:22:41.320 --> 00:22:44.792 You still have the Commonwealth. I think that's one of the words 354 00:22:44.846 --> 00:22:48.584 that's used in the Netherlands. We don't use it, 355 00:22:48.622 --> 00:22:51.640 but we have of course had Indonesia, 356 00:22:52.940 --> 00:22:56.570 Suriname, some islands in 357 00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:01.384 Caribbean and strangely 358 00:23:01.432 --> 00:23:05.164 enough, when I grew up I knew these areas were 359 00:23:05.202 --> 00:23:08.944 there. But I now recall that I 360 00:23:08.982 --> 00:23:11.840 never thought of them as being Dutch. 361 00:23:14.500 --> 00:23:16.560 While they were included 362 00:23:18.340 --> 00:23:21.892 in our laws and everything, I never 363 00:23:21.946 --> 00:23:25.364 considered them Dutch. So when 364 00:23:25.402 --> 00:23:28.244 you have these problems right now with the 365 00:23:28.282 --> 00:23:31.300 demonstrations in the Netherlands 366 00:23:31.720 --> 00:23:35.300 trying to get the conversation 367 00:23:35.380 --> 00:23:38.852 going about systemic racism and white supremacy, 368 00:23:38.996 --> 00:23:42.840 people still keep yelling at these people with a different 369 00:23:42.910 --> 00:23:46.684 skin colour than white, like go back to your country. Because they 370 00:23:46.722 --> 00:23:49.996 don't consider they never thought that 371 00:23:50.178 --> 00:23:53.676 Suriname was part of the Netherlands. Of course it 372 00:23:53.698 --> 00:23:56.750 wasn't, but by law it was. 373 00:23:57.760 --> 00:24:01.104 But we hear too, Dutch means 374 00:24:01.302 --> 00:24:04.784 white, means white person from the 375 00:24:04.822 --> 00:24:08.368 Netherlands. There are large 376 00:24:08.454 --> 00:24:11.700 groups, I live in Rotterdam and that it means 377 00:24:11.770 --> 00:24:14.932 that we have 70% of our 378 00:24:14.986 --> 00:24:18.372 inhabitants have a different cultural or 379 00:24:18.506 --> 00:24:22.356 background than Dutch. So how is 380 00:24:22.378 --> 00:24:26.072 it still possible that just this minority gets 381 00:24:26.126 --> 00:24:29.720 to say just us is what 382 00:24:29.790 --> 00:24:33.000 matters. That's what we do it for, nothing 383 00:24:33.070 --> 00:24:36.716 else. 70%, that means 70% of the 384 00:24:36.738 --> 00:24:40.204 city has to go. Then the city will shut down. Just this 385 00:24:40.242 --> 00:24:44.092 city and this goes rest of the world 386 00:24:44.146 --> 00:24:47.628 as well. Yeah, 387 00:24:47.794 --> 00:24:51.584 you're touching on colonialism now, which is the 388 00:24:51.622 --> 00:24:55.120 Brits, the Dutch, the Portuguese, the Spanish 389 00:24:56.420 --> 00:24:59.724 and even if you think about the Italians and the Roman 390 00:24:59.772 --> 00:25:03.524 Empire, there's been a lot of colonialism going on by 391 00:25:03.642 --> 00:25:05.670 white Europeans. If you like 392 00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:10.768 trading religion for wealth 393 00:25:10.864 --> 00:25:14.676 and we give you our religion and destroy your culture and we steal 394 00:25:14.708 --> 00:25:17.784 your wealth and your 395 00:25:17.822 --> 00:25:21.496 heritage. I was at a 396 00:25:21.518 --> 00:25:25.268 Tutankhamun exhibition at the Saatchi 397 00:25:25.284 --> 00:25:29.116 Gallery in London, I think last year and I 398 00:25:29.138 --> 00:25:32.536 didn't look at it with the right lens. I've 399 00:25:32.568 --> 00:25:35.870 replayed that visit with a different lens and basically 400 00:25:38.340 --> 00:25:42.124 white privileged people went to Egypt, dug 401 00:25:42.172 --> 00:25:45.600