Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a
Joanne Lockwood: number of amazing people. And simply having a conversation around the
Joanne Lockwood: subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a
Joanne Lockwood: better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future,
Joanne Lockwood: then please do drop me a line to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: That's S-E-E Change Happen.co.uk. You
Joanne Lockwood: better catch up with all of the previous shows on Itunes, Spotify,
Joanne Lockwood: and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab
Joanne Lockwood: a decaf, and let's get going. Today
Joanne Lockwood: is episode 22 with the title, it's never too
Joanne Lockwood: late to be what you might have been. And I have the absolute honor
Joanne Lockwood: and privilege to be joined by Amy Rowlinson. Amy
Joanne Lockwood: describes herself as someone who is on a mission to help
Joanne Lockwood: people become purpose driven and values based.
Joanne Lockwood: And when I asked Amy to describe her superpower, she said,
Joanne Lockwood: I listen. Hello, Amy. Welcome to the
Joanne Lockwood: show. Hello, Jo. Lovely to be here. I'm hoping not to be
Amy Rowlinson: bitten on your podcast today.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm sure with all our social distancing, I don't think my
Joanne Lockwood: reach is quite that long. Jo, it's an absolute pleasure, I mean we've been talking
Joanne Lockwood: about having you on the show for a few months now, pleased, we finally got
Joanne Lockwood: together and made it happen. So who is Amy?
Joanne Lockwood: And tell me why you feel it's never too late to be
Joanne Lockwood: what you might have been. What's that mean? Well, I'm a
Amy Rowlinson: strong advocate for being a midlife beginner, having
Amy Rowlinson: created a number of businesses out of nothing at the
Amy Rowlinson: sort of tender age of 40 something. And,
Amy Rowlinson: well, Bites about 40, 42, 43. And in the last
Amy Rowlinson: few years, I have really realized, having gone through
Amy Rowlinson: a long process of personal development, that it is
Amy Rowlinson: possible to do what you want to do and that it is never too late
Amy Rowlinson: to be what you might have been and that who you are and what you
Amy Rowlinson: do and what you have is all within your control. And
Amy Rowlinson: what you want to have determines who you become and what you do.
Amy Rowlinson: So I'm a strong believer of being a midlife beginner and
Amy Rowlinson: switching between that of just existing to
Amy Rowlinson: really living. Well,
Joanne Lockwood: for for anyone that who's listening that knows me, I'm I'm
Joanne Lockwood: with you on that. You know, I at the age of 52, I I I
Joanne Lockwood: rebooted pretty much my entire life jo I know what it's like
Joanne Lockwood: to start again if you like and
Joanne Lockwood: and I found that sometimes when you start again you do it
Joanne Lockwood: different, better, faster, and with more passion, don't
Joanne Lockwood: you? Effort, isn't it, of of coming to something new as a in
Amy Rowlinson: your midlife. Because, you you know, you people SEE it from the outside as being
Amy Rowlinson: an overnight success. So actually, you've got sort of 40 years or
Amy Rowlinson: several decades behind you. So you can leverage from that experience,
Amy Rowlinson: and you can sort of transfer all those skills you've been amassing
Amy Rowlinson: over that time and take it into something where you really have a
Amy Rowlinson: passion for. And I think focusing on why you're doing
Amy Rowlinson: what you're doing is jo important. And Bites sort of, for
Amy Rowlinson: me, it enables you to really put some passion
Amy Rowlinson: into that sort of life that you and business And
Amy Rowlinson: learn from the experiences that you've had and not worry
Amy Rowlinson: about what it is you've got to do or who you've got to impress and
Amy Rowlinson: just do things because it's right for you.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Do you think people get kind of pigeonholed and stuck? You know, SEE
Joanne Lockwood: if you I remember looking back and I was probably
Joanne Lockwood: 12, 13, I didn't really know what I wanted to do as a career and
Joanne Lockwood: I played with a bit of electronics, I did a bit of photography, I was
Joanne Lockwood: interested in maths and physics and science but I had no real kind of what
Joanne Lockwood: do I want to do and suddenly I ended up as an electronics engineer because
Joanne Lockwood: I had a slight interest in electronics and Belonging little
Joanne Lockwood: radios. But it was never really a career choice but it
Joanne Lockwood: just kind of I ended up in it. And then I got into computing again
Joanne Lockwood: through hobbies and I got sort of into my 40s, I think. If I
Joanne Lockwood: look back, I'd much rather have been a photographer. That was really
Joanne Lockwood: where my passion laid when I was in my teens. But I didn't
Joanne Lockwood: appreciate that was a career. So you do kind of get pigeonholed either by
Joanne Lockwood: your parents, by your early choices in exams
Joanne Lockwood: or qualifications And it's hard to get out of that box, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? I think that growing up, we we had a sort of a a
Amy Rowlinson: limited exposure to opportunities.
Amy Rowlinson: And now we've got the advent of the internet and you've got all the
Amy Rowlinson: social media. People are much more exposed to so many different
Amy Rowlinson: sort of roots in life and where we probably had that careers officer
Amy Rowlinson: who said, oh, you could do this particular career or that. And then, as you
Amy Rowlinson: said, you just sort of get put onto that path. And unless you've got
Amy Rowlinson: a real sort of pursuit for being a doctor or a
Amy Rowlinson: veterinarian or whatever it was, you you kind of drifted. And that's where
Amy Rowlinson: I felt I'd certainly drifted
Amy Rowlinson: I was, oh, my goodness. You mean I could do other things in life? Well,
Amy Rowlinson: why didn't no one tell me? I was quite cross, to be
Amy Rowlinson: fair. Do you think there's a a kinda agenda
Joanne Lockwood: difference here where men are kind of set off in this
Joanne Lockwood: futuristic path whereas women are kind of traditionally put on to
Joanne Lockwood: stop that path. A kind of until you have a family type type career
Joanne Lockwood: path. Yeah. There can be. That's how it used to be. And I went to
Amy Rowlinson: an all girls school. Didn't have a huge exposure to to
Amy Rowlinson: sort of men until I went to university. And it was only then I was
Amy Rowlinson: sort of sitting next to people saying, oh, you study too. I didn't realize that
Amy Rowlinson: because I hadn't Happen in that space. I'd SEE just all
Amy Rowlinson: women. So we were empowered. And we were sort of led to believe that we
Amy Rowlinson: could do whatever subjects we want to do. And that wasn't a problem. And then
Amy Rowlinson: when I went to university and then going into the workplace, that was it was
Amy Rowlinson: a really different dynamic for me. And I found
Amy Rowlinson: it's interesting because I went into a career again. I sort of fell into it.
Amy Rowlinson: I didn't particularly plan it. I went into recruitment. And I used to
Amy Rowlinson: have temps working for me in London. I had sort of 400 temps
Amy Rowlinson: out each SEE working in different roles. And
Amy Rowlinson: they were mostly sort of admin based. So they were actually
Amy Rowlinson: had a few guys who came to me who were exceptional PAs. And I
Amy Rowlinson: remember really having to sell them harder to my companies
Amy Rowlinson: at that time. And so there was a difference in in sort of
Amy Rowlinson: acceptance in that time. But it wasn't really sort of
Amy Rowlinson: a big thing. It was just a case of me saying, look, he's really good.
Amy Rowlinson: Come on. Let's Bites now you wouldn't have those issues at all.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, it's interesting to say you went to an all girls school and that
Joanne Lockwood: insight you had about you weren't constrained by
Joanne Lockwood: gendered roles because you were all women, all girls together, sort of thing. Do you
Joanne Lockwood: think are you an advocate therefore for
Joanne Lockwood: separate education for for young girls and boys, or do you think there's a that
Joanne Lockwood: that's the benefits sometimes outweigh? What
Joanne Lockwood: do you think? Is that Well, that there are several studies that show the results
Amy Rowlinson: for sort of being in a single sex school for both
Amy Rowlinson: girls and boys. And yet both my kids are at single
Amy Rowlinson: sex schools. However, the 6th forms are mixed. And also now
Amy Rowlinson: they're very aware of having the opportunities for people
Amy Rowlinson: to not to specify whether they fit into either of those
Amy Rowlinson: categories, that there are other options. And both schools are very progressive with that,
Amy Rowlinson: which is fantastic. And something that I have learned is
Amy Rowlinson: that my children were brought up
Amy Rowlinson: very much from the position that I treated
Amy Rowlinson: them as individuals. And it was something I read very early on. It was
Amy Rowlinson: probably one of the best pieces of parenting advice that I got, which was
Amy Rowlinson: don't treat them equally. Treat them as individuals.
Amy Rowlinson: Don't think that they need to have equal portions of food. Treat them
Amy Rowlinson: as what they need and ask them, what is it? How much food do you
Amy Rowlinson: want on your plate? Let them SEE themselves and become independent thinkers, become
Amy Rowlinson: independent in the way that they are. And that was, for me, is probably
Amy Rowlinson: one of the best things Wellbeing a parent, receiving that information so
Amy Rowlinson: early on. Yeah. I mean, I think you said your
Joanne Lockwood: your children in their sort of mid teens and my my children are now in
Joanne Lockwood: their 26 to 30 SEE group. And
Joanne Lockwood: I'm I'm I'm Wellbeing thinking, if I could do that again, I'd be so much
Joanne Lockwood: more woke, I'd be so much more, enlightened as a
Joanne Lockwood: parent, I think. And as a parent,
Joanne Lockwood: SEE don't we don't really get parenting classes in that way to
Joanne Lockwood: understand how to and what we do SEE kind of push back and
Joanne Lockwood: go I don't want to be interfered with, I want to parent my way and
Joanne Lockwood: I think like it's like many things in life isn't it with with hindsight SEE
Joanne Lockwood: do things differently and I'm not I mean, my kids are fantastic. I
Joanne Lockwood: just wish I'd been a different parent, not a better parent or worse
Joanne Lockwood: parent or or just I'd like to Happen been embrace some of the things you
Joanne Lockwood: just mentioned. And, I think yeah. It goes down,
Amy Rowlinson: doesn't it? You you do the best job at the time with the tools that
Amy Rowlinson: you have. And and, you know, I was fortunate enough to have picked up that
Amy Rowlinson: particular book and and found that resource at that time. And
Amy Rowlinson: had I not, I wouldn't be giving myself a hard time of
Amy Rowlinson: looking back on it. It's just what you do in that moment.
Amy Rowlinson: And the making decisions for the schools that the children are, that was the
Amy Rowlinson: decisions I made at the time of being the best schools for them, as I
Amy Rowlinson: believe them to be. Whether they are or not, who knows? But
Amy Rowlinson: it's one of those things. You make a Inclusion, and you go with it, and
Amy Rowlinson: you take that responsibility. And there are always
Amy Rowlinson: options, always choices. And you're making these choices what
Amy Rowlinson: you are and what you believe at that moment.
Joanne Lockwood: Jo, I mean, one of the things we started talking about earlier was around this,
Joanne Lockwood: the ability to sort of put the brakes on in in your in your
Joanne Lockwood: life and just have have a look around, just smell
Joanne Lockwood: the flowers and look out the window and just go, who am I?
Joanne Lockwood: What do I really want to do in the future? But there's a
Joanne Lockwood: massive massive breaks you have to put in your life sometimes,
Joanne Lockwood: isn't it? Because the momentum, your your your commitments,
Joanne Lockwood: your family, your pressures of earning, a house, all
Joanne Lockwood: this stuff around you has momentum, doesn't it? So it's a real there's a
Joanne Lockwood: real well, real real tough breaks to say, Happen minute. Stop.
Joanne Lockwood: Think. Now what can I do? And and that's tough for many people. How how
Joanne Lockwood: do people go about that? I think stopping just
Amy Rowlinson: to slow down and really look at what's happening around
Amy Rowlinson: is probably one of the best things you can do instead of heading on full
Amy Rowlinson: pace into everything. And I think that so often people think they go
Amy Rowlinson: from one thing at 100 miles an hour to the next. And they don't slow
Amy Rowlinson: down. And they don't stop and just pause and look around. And that's something I
Amy Rowlinson: found at the beginning of lockdown. Pretty much everyone
Amy Rowlinson: had the opportunity to do that. And there have been such a
Amy Rowlinson: difference in thereafter, the responses of people
Amy Rowlinson: of where they've gone into different directions. And let's use the
Amy Rowlinson: word pivot because, for the want of a better word, that's what a lot of
Amy Rowlinson: have done. Bites it has been an opportunity for everybody
Amy Rowlinson: to press the reset button and think, is this really
Amy Rowlinson: what I want to do? Is this something that I am passionate about?
Amy Rowlinson: Is this something that I am actually really interested in? And
Amy Rowlinson: SEE, obviously, there are financial
Amy Rowlinson: responsibilities that people have. But if you have that opportunity
Amy Rowlinson: to really pursue something that is of true
Amy Rowlinson: value to yourself and isn't with your values, that's where you
Amy Rowlinson: start to find that the real magic really happens.
Amy Rowlinson: And for me, I had that opportunity years ago when
Amy Rowlinson: I realized that I could take the opportunity
Amy Rowlinson: to support my husband by creating a business that would then allow him to
Amy Rowlinson: retire. So I spent 3 years building up a property
Amy Rowlinson: portfolio that would replace income.
Amy Rowlinson: And last October, which is 2019, he actually did step away
Amy Rowlinson: from his role. And that has been a huge change for us
Amy Rowlinson: as a family dynamic because he was in a position which was really
Amy Rowlinson: quite stressful, was not great for his mental health, was not
Amy Rowlinson: great for the family dynamic. And yet, we'd been stuck in a
Amy Rowlinson: position where we didn't see an alternative for so many
Amy Rowlinson: years. For 20 years plus, that's what we thought the path would be.
Amy Rowlinson: And then we actually learned some information that
Amy Rowlinson: allowed me. And I then went on various courses which gave me that
Amy Rowlinson: education into understanding that there was a different route. There was a
Amy Rowlinson: different way. And this is where I say I became a midlife beginner and that
Amy Rowlinson: it was never too late to be what I might have been. And for me,
Amy Rowlinson: that and family, that has completely changed. We're all together.
Amy Rowlinson: We've spent the whole of lockdown together. We're at home together. The children now get
Amy Rowlinson: the benefit of seeing their father more. And he's
Amy Rowlinson: taken over that role. And then it's given me the opportunity to pursue what I
Amy Rowlinson: love doing, which is podcasting and coaching.
Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. Yeah. I I mean, you look around to the world. There
Joanne Lockwood: are people who do have these kind of midlife crisis
Joanne Lockwood: for whatever you want to call it and some of it is outside of their
Joanne Lockwood: control, they get made redundant, they have an illness or a life changing
Joanne Lockwood: accident or something or something major occurs that causes them to
Joanne Lockwood: pirouette, pivot, u-turn, whatever you wanna call the
Joanne Lockwood: word. But many people, unless they have that intervention, that
Joanne Lockwood: external intervention, don't don't stop do they? And that that's it's
Joanne Lockwood: almost like empowering yourself to to make that change without it being
Joanne Lockwood: enforced on you is where the power should come as men. Time and time
Amy Rowlinson: again, I hear of people who have had these sort of external events, as you
Amy Rowlinson: call them, or traumas or or sort of redundancy SEE
Amy Rowlinson: death or or an illness. And it's because of that that they then
Amy Rowlinson: realize that, you know, what they're doing is is not what they want to be
Amy Rowlinson: doing. And that's been the trigger, to change
Amy Rowlinson: their lifestyle. What I'm trying to help people to do is that it doesn't
Amy Rowlinson: have to be a trauma before you realize that you can change your
Amy Rowlinson: direction and that by taking responsibility and becoming more self
Amy Rowlinson: aware of what you of who you are and what you want to
Amy Rowlinson: do is is empowering. And, you know, you
Amy Rowlinson: only get one life. And this is where I feel so many people are just
Amy Rowlinson: existing and they're just sort of sleepwalking through their lives.
Joanne Lockwood: Carpe Diem Indeed. Certainly. But is it not a
Joanne Lockwood: privilege to be able to do that?
Joanne Lockwood: There are many people who who don't have the stability
Joanne Lockwood: of home, the stability of finance, the stability of relationships,
Joanne Lockwood: the education or the contacts or the network. So it's quite a privilege
Joanne Lockwood: to be able to say, just stop and have a think, isn't it? I think
Amy Rowlinson: I think you're right. There there is an element to that. But I think it
Amy Rowlinson: doesn't have to be that you are changing your entire
Amy Rowlinson: life. You could just be changing one thing. You could be switching off the
Amy Rowlinson: TV and, as you say, pursue your passion in photography, for
Amy Rowlinson: example. So it's just by taking the time to prioritize
Amy Rowlinson: the things in life that you enjoy more. And then you'll start to realize
Amy Rowlinson: that there are opportunities there to
Amy Rowlinson: turn your vocation into a profession. And that's
Amy Rowlinson: where the switch can happen before making
Amy Rowlinson: drastic decisions of just quitting your 9 to 5 to
Amy Rowlinson: do something else. There is a responsibility there to
Amy Rowlinson: probably overlap. And and that's where a lot of people sort of don't
Amy Rowlinson: see that there are opportunities to pursue different
Amy Rowlinson: Bites without it all having to come tumbling down.
Amy Rowlinson: You don't have to do it that way. It can be a balance.
Joanne Lockwood: So just to add to your sort of like major major
Joanne Lockwood: u-turn here, we can talk about Bites evolution. We can say start at me, I
Joanne Lockwood: think the way you just said it was that you started investing in your own
Joanne Lockwood: education, you had like a gold property portfolio, how
Joanne Lockwood: do I go about that, let's go on some courses. So it may take you
Joanne Lockwood: a year to invest in yourself to get to a point where you're ready or
Joanne Lockwood: if you're gonna do a coaching course, and we all know the coaching courses probably
Joanne Lockwood: take a year to 18 months to do the coaching courses, then at the end
Joanne Lockwood: of that you're ready to start business, you don't have a business at that point,
Joanne Lockwood: you're ready to start a business jo by taking looking at maybe a
Joanne Lockwood: year, 12 months, 18 months plan of this where you invest
Joanne Lockwood: in yourself that way you're not putting the brakes on suddenly you're
Joanne Lockwood: already you're planning to come to a gentle stop. Is that probably the way
Joanne Lockwood: to do it? Absolutely. I think investing in yourself and in your own
Amy Rowlinson: ability to again, it comes back to personal
Amy Rowlinson: development, which for me was just you know, it was just such
Amy Rowlinson: a light bulb moment, such an epiphany to sort of realize that
Amy Rowlinson: I had all these different opportunities available to me and that
Amy Rowlinson: I didn't even know that there was such a thing as limiting beliefs or imposter
Amy Rowlinson: syndrome or sort of, you know, to
Amy Rowlinson: change the way that you've been thinking using anchors in NLP. I mean, there's
Amy Rowlinson: just there's so many different ways that you can sort
Amy Rowlinson: of shift and move and and grow. And I mean, I'm
Amy Rowlinson: a massive believer in in lifelong learning. And I
Amy Rowlinson: say it all the time. But SEE the Shakespeare
Amy Rowlinson: quote that I absolutely love, which is the fool to think the
Amy Rowlinson: fool to think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to
Amy Rowlinson: be a fool. And, you know, Bites so important to
Amy Rowlinson: to realise that there is always more out there that you can
Amy Rowlinson: grow and learn. And for me, I'm just going to be a lifelong sort of
Amy Rowlinson: learner because there's so much that I don't even know
Amy Rowlinson: how to describe. I don't even know what I don't know at the moment. So
Amy Rowlinson: as humans, we do crave for that purpose. And I'm sure, you know,
Amy Rowlinson: anyone who's read Frankl's Man's Search For Meaning, you know
Amy Rowlinson: that it's bigger. There's so much more there. But once
Amy Rowlinson: we understand why we are doing what we're doing, we
Amy Rowlinson: have a life of fulfillment. And that's where, ultimately, I'm not saying
Amy Rowlinson: ditch your 9 to 5 job. It's just about finding something that is fulfilling
Amy Rowlinson: in your life. And that can be done through volunteering. It could be you know,
Amy Rowlinson: it doesn't have to be that you create a new business. And it doesn't have
Amy Rowlinson: to be that you leave your 9 to 5 at all. You could align yourself
Amy Rowlinson: within a business. And this is where I do a lot of work with
Amy Rowlinson: Parkinson's. It's a cause that I'm supporting on the podcast at the moment
Amy Rowlinson: because it's a way of aligning
Amy Rowlinson: your passion in life with a. So you can
Amy Rowlinson: volunteer for a company. You can work with our company. It's about
Amy Rowlinson: connection, and it's about belonging and understanding that what you're doing
Amy Rowlinson: is of value to others.
Joanne Lockwood: But people still get blocked by their imposter syndrome, these limiting beliefs. I mean,
Joanne Lockwood: you mentioned that yourself. And that's a real brick wall, isn't it? Where people go,
Joanne Lockwood: I couldn't, I couldn't, I can't. And we said, well, just take a small step.
Joanne Lockwood: Well, no, we couldn't, I couldn't, Bites I'm too busy. I've I've not
Joanne Lockwood: got the skills. I've I don't know anything. I don't know any. As a as
Joanne Lockwood: a roadblocker, how can we help people overcome these sort of limiting
Joanne Lockwood: beliefs and and it's easy for us because we've done
Joanne Lockwood: this But it's not so easy for people who are embarking on
Joanne Lockwood: this first tiptoe into this world, isn't it? Quite often,
Amy Rowlinson: what people say they can't do, it is it is, as you say, it's
Amy Rowlinson: a limiting belief. And it's about finding the connection
Amy Rowlinson: between what it is they really want to do, find and
Amy Rowlinson: twisting that into becoming a priority, but aligning
Amy Rowlinson: the the purpose behind it so that they understand that by
Amy Rowlinson: doing that, it's going to enable others. So it's connecting
Amy Rowlinson: emotions with the actions and understanding what the what
Amy Rowlinson: those results are going to be. And quite often, when you
Amy Rowlinson: serve or help others and you show
Amy Rowlinson: the value in that, you're seeing their end
Amy Rowlinson: results in helping others. And that is so
Amy Rowlinson: fulfilling. So again, you hear this
Amy Rowlinson: quote all the time from Henry Ford, whether you think you can or whether you
Amy Rowlinson: think you can't, you're right. And it really comes down to does it
Amy Rowlinson: really mean enough to you to make that Change? Because
Amy Rowlinson: it's with everything. If you want to lose weight, do you really want to lose
Amy Rowlinson: weight? Because you're going to have to put the effort in. And it's with all
Amy Rowlinson: things you have to put the effort in to get results.
Joanne Lockwood: For sure. Again, that comes down to finding your own why. Are you
Joanne Lockwood: doing it for yourself, doing it for the society expects,
Joanne Lockwood: or you're doing because somebody else wants you to? And those other 2, you know,
Joanne Lockwood: to conform because somebody else wants you to, they're never gonna be sustainable. You'll
Joanne Lockwood: never feel that passion. You've got to say to yourself, if you wanna lose
Joanne Lockwood: weight, I'm not gonna eat that Mars bar, I'm not gonna have that glass of
Joanne Lockwood: wine, because I don't want to. As soon as somebody else is putting those rules
Joanne Lockwood: in place, you'll go, well, they can't see me, I'll start again tomorrow. So once
Joanne Lockwood: you've learned you're only cheating yourself and you're holding yourself accountable, that's when you
Joanne Lockwood: can make Change, isn't it? Absolutely. And I mean, language is
Amy Rowlinson: so important. Our self talk is is critical. And what we're
Amy Rowlinson: saying to ourselves on a daily basis is is a
Amy Rowlinson: huge impact to how we can move forward.
Amy Rowlinson: And quite often, I advocate to people that they
Amy Rowlinson: journal and they do like a morning journal. And
Amy Rowlinson: it's just to release that sort of self talk before you start
Amy Rowlinson: the day. Because quite often, we have so much sort of
Amy Rowlinson: negative self talk that we keep going and we repeat those all
Amy Rowlinson: through the day because we have so many more thoughts. I mean, I can't remember
Amy Rowlinson: the numbers Bites 60,000 thoughts a day, But majority of
Amy Rowlinson: those are are repetitive. And and a lot of them also are
Amy Rowlinson: negative. So by journaling first thing in the morning and just getting it
Amy Rowlinson: out onto paper, you actually give yourself
Amy Rowlinson: the permission to move on. And the self talk feels as
Amy Rowlinson: though it's been acknowledged. But then actually Bites gone.
Amy Rowlinson: It's it becomes less powerful on us. So yeah, it's
Amy Rowlinson: it's really not SEE
Joanne Lockwood: that's interesting because, you know, if I was to say think of a pink elephant
Joanne Lockwood: or don't think of a pink elephant, the first thing you can't stop thinking about
Joanne Lockwood: is a pink elephant. So if you're trying to stop drinking, you
Joanne Lockwood: always think about not drinking, therefore you're always thinking about drinking.
Joanne Lockwood: If you're trying to lose weight you're always thinking about not eating or being careful
Joanne Lockwood: with your food so food, drink, pink elephants become all in
Joanne Lockwood: your mind all the time and you can't find room for anything else to take
Joanne Lockwood: your mind off it, can you? And that you wake up thinking about it, you
Joanne Lockwood: go to sleep thinking about it, you're beating yourself up for not losing that £2
Joanne Lockwood: this week, you're focusing on that for the next week and you're
Joanne Lockwood: constantly micro judging yourself on a daily basis
Joanne Lockwood: rather than taking a bigger goal saying this month, I'm trying to
Joanne Lockwood: lose £2. We're worried about losing £2 every day and we're weighing ourselves too
Joanne Lockwood: much, aren't we? Is that is that are we over measuring sometimes too much data?
Amy Rowlinson: There could be that. I think it's it's focusing on the on the outcomes and
Amy Rowlinson: what it will allow you to do. So it's a case of I
Amy Rowlinson: am losing weight because I am then going to be able
Amy Rowlinson: to run to the shops or run not to
Amy Rowlinson: get more food, but run run with the kids, you know, to have have fun
Amy Rowlinson: or take the dog for a walk. I'm gonna be more, able to do
Amy Rowlinson: the things that I love doing, which is and jo it's focusing on on what
Amy Rowlinson: it is it will allow us to do as opposed to just focusing on that
Amy Rowlinson: moment. So it's thinking longer term. And as you
Amy Rowlinson: say, not just on that short term, eating for fuel, you know, not
Amy Rowlinson: not sort of saying, I'm not going to eat this. It's what what are you
Amy Rowlinson: going to eat? I'm going to eat fantastic foods that really fill me with
Amy Rowlinson: energy and vitality. And this is this is where, you know,
Amy Rowlinson: learning and growing and improving just
Amy Rowlinson: takes you to that next step. And Bites so important. I think
Amy Rowlinson: often when we're we're excuse SEE.
Amy Rowlinson: Often when we are in the moment, we we get, as you say, we
Amy Rowlinson: get stuck and we don't see the bigger picture. So
Amy Rowlinson: taking ourselves out of the frame, we can then see what it is we're
Amy Rowlinson: trying to achieve. So
Joanne Lockwood: where are we now? This is like end of November, 3 or 4 weeks till
Joanne Lockwood: Christmas, we've been in lockdown on and off or some shape
Joanne Lockwood: of of sort of COVID dominating our lives for the last 8 or 9 months
Joanne Lockwood: with a kind of vaccine being Joanne good in front of us but even
Joanne Lockwood: then they're not promising anything before March, probably even the
Joanne Lockwood: summer before anything Happen. So how are you seeing that impacting people? I
Joanne Lockwood: mean, is it helping people discover themselves more or
Joanne Lockwood: are people still in survival mode? How do you SEE
Joanne Lockwood: do you see people that you're talking to find in this time? So a lot
Amy Rowlinson: of people that I speak to are definitely in the thrive mode because they
Amy Rowlinson: understand that they can become bigger
Amy Rowlinson: than what the restrictions have come on us and that they can
Amy Rowlinson: actually move into different ways of living. And they're growing, and
Amy Rowlinson: they're evolving, and they're adapting. And it goes back to that who moved the
Amy Rowlinson: cheese scenario. I don't know if you've ever heard of that Doctor. Spencer Johnson talked
Amy Rowlinson: about, you know, the people who expect things to happen to
Amy Rowlinson: them, you know, they they become sort of stuck in this world where it's
Amy Rowlinson: like, who moved my cheese? Where's it, you know, where's it gone? And they get
Amy Rowlinson: very angry about it. And those who sort of move on, evolve, and
Amy Rowlinson: adapt are the ones that are going to be able to thrive. You know, it's
Amy Rowlinson: a difficult situation. And someone I heard is Steve Judge. He said
Amy Rowlinson: that we're all in the same storm, but we're all in different boats. And I
Amy Rowlinson: love that analogy because, yes, we are all experiencing very different things at
Amy Rowlinson: the moment. And it's all about how are we going to weather the
Amy Rowlinson: storm? What is it we're going to be going through? Because it's not going to
Amy Rowlinson: change. You know, external events are going to be always happening. If
Amy Rowlinson: it's not coronavirus, it's going to be something else. So again, it's
Amy Rowlinson: about how are you going to take it to the next level? What is it
Amy Rowlinson: you're going to be doing? And, you know, we're never going to
Amy Rowlinson: be in the same world that we were living in before. It's
Amy Rowlinson: about taking opportunities and, again, having a purpose,
Amy Rowlinson: having a plan, and focusing on why you do what you do because
Amy Rowlinson: you know otherwise you're just going to get stuck in that daily
Amy Rowlinson: list of chores you're going to roll in with day in, day in life. And
Amy Rowlinson: it's about questioning, really sort of thinking about what it is you want to
Amy Rowlinson: do, what legacy you're going to leave behind, and and how you're going to
Amy Rowlinson: then achieve it. Because then when you start thinking bigger Joanne, you
Amy Rowlinson: know, what is it going to be for tea tonight, life becomes
Amy Rowlinson: much more fun. I agree. I love this
Joanne Lockwood: quote. So one of my quotes, this is my own personal quote,
Joanne Lockwood: is lucky things happen to lucky people. And what do I mean by
Joanne Lockwood: that? Is, you know, some people have all the luck. Some people seem to have
Joanne Lockwood: these opportunities all the time and other people look at me and go, how does
Joanne Lockwood: that person get all these opportunities? And when I say lucky things happen to lucky
Joanne Lockwood: people, is that you do things that make you lucky and that
Joanne Lockwood: is saying yes to things rather than jo. Saying
Joanne Lockwood: oh, what does that look like? Exploring opportunities. Bites,
Joanne Lockwood: so being an open mind, a growth mind rather than a closed mind and saying,
Joanne Lockwood: well, I'm gonna say I can't, you know, who's moved my cheese? I'm gonna
Joanne Lockwood: I've got my own cheese, I'm gonna Bites my cheese, actually, I'm gonna share
Joanne Lockwood: it with you, have some of my cheese, enjoy it, I'll get some more if
Joanne Lockwood: it moves. So so don't don't treat these as obstacles in your
Joanne Lockwood: mind. See them as as disruptions, a positive
Joanne Lockwood: event in terms of how can I now adapt to this? So
Joanne Lockwood: I whilst I recognize so many people listen to this podcast that have had a
Joanne Lockwood: really poor experience of COVID, it affects them deeply and I
Joanne Lockwood: and with either health wise or financial, etcetera.
Joanne Lockwood: It gave me an opportunity to say, okay, I had a
Joanne Lockwood: cry, I had a bit of a pity party for a few days and I
Joanne Lockwood: thought, okay, I got my mind into the into the mindset that
Joanne Lockwood: this was going to be an 18 month to 2 year thing. For
Joanne Lockwood: I've I looked at the early data, looked at some early graphs and thought, we're
Joanne Lockwood: kidding ourselves that this is gonna go away quickly. So I said, right,
Joanne Lockwood: 2 years is effectively forever, as far as I'm
Joanne Lockwood: concerned. In business, a 2 year plan is a forever plan. And as as we
Joanne Lockwood: get into 2 years, we can reinvent it. So I decided at that point there,
Joanne Lockwood: I needed to invest, I needed to look at what I was doing. I needed
Joanne Lockwood: to put myself in a position where I was doing what people wanted me to
Joanne Lockwood: do, rather than what I used to do. So my luck,
Joanne Lockwood: if you like, was my past IT and technical experience,
Joanne Lockwood: Wellbeing me to set up my own home studio and be interested enough in
Joanne Lockwood: my own video, I was always into photography, videography, so
Joanne Lockwood: editing videos, doing graphics, doing my own sort of stuff was Bites easy to me.
Joanne Lockwood: I didn't have any overheads, I just I was just me, I had a VA,
Joanne Lockwood: I just asked my VA to focus on different things, I automated a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: what I did. So I I I created this kind of lean new
Joanne Lockwood: machine and didn't I didn't mourn for what I
Joanne Lockwood: lost. I started embracing what I gained. And that was
Joanne Lockwood: just a mindset shift into into seeing the opportunity of
Joanne Lockwood: the future and not hanging on to that if only,
Joanne Lockwood: Joanne wait. Because I think some people are waiting for the
Joanne Lockwood: boat to come back in so they can go off and do their own thing
Joanne Lockwood: again. But that boat's not coming back. You know, we we gotta live with this
Joanne Lockwood: as we are now. SEE, but my
Joanne Lockwood: luck I made, I did my lucky things. I networked, I do did
Joanne Lockwood: what I worked and I suppose I
Joanne Lockwood: pivoted, I pirouretted, I I made a huge change 4 years ago. To
Joanne Lockwood: me, this was just a kind of go, SEE we go again, More
Joanne Lockwood: change. Fine. But I can imagine that's a struggle for someone that's that's been thrown
Joanne Lockwood: into this for the first time. You've got to find that that gotta find it.
Joanne Lockwood: Your your armband to be able to swim out. And I love that you
Amy Rowlinson: shared that you had a pity party because I also had that sort
Amy Rowlinson: of moment right at the beginning of lockdown where I had a business
Amy Rowlinson: with another partner. And he decided that he didn't
Amy Rowlinson: want to carry on with the business anymore right at the beginning of Lockwood. He
Amy Rowlinson: was thinking how we could just take it all online. And so I had a
Amy Rowlinson: sort of, a few tears. And I was like, well, I've just spent the last
Amy Rowlinson: 18 months building up this business with you. And now it's all over.
Amy Rowlinson: And I thought, well, actually, you know, put the tears aside for a
Amy Rowlinson: moment and focus on what you can do. What have you learned? What are you
Amy Rowlinson: able to take into a new space? And that's where I just
Amy Rowlinson: sort of let the unconscious work its magic. And I woke up with an idea
Amy Rowlinson: on April Fools' Day that actually then became the podcast. And
Amy Rowlinson: within 29 days, I'd launched it. And, you know, it's
Amy Rowlinson: funny because, as you say, you know,
Amy Rowlinson: you have all the skills. You are perfectly
Amy Rowlinson: capable of all sorts of things. And yet sometimes you don't
Amy Rowlinson: see it. So just taking that time to pause and take it into a
Amy Rowlinson: space where you are going to help other people, you're going to be able to
Amy Rowlinson: take those tools and amplify them. And, you know, there's your sort
Amy Rowlinson: of sound engineer background, tech engineer coming in and
Amy Rowlinson: out. Amplify them to take them to a bigger audience. And that's where the
Amy Rowlinson: podcasting is fantastic, because people all over the world will hear
Amy Rowlinson: your message. And they will then be able to take it on board. And just
Amy Rowlinson: by listening to it, they can play their own movie of their life
Amy Rowlinson: to it. And they you're literally recording the soundtrack to what they then
Amy Rowlinson: can step up and move forward and then
Amy Rowlinson: take action. And that's what you have to do. That's that's the sort of key
Amy Rowlinson: thing is taking the action. It's all very well thinking things and and having these
Amy Rowlinson: sort of sorrowful moments. But unless you step up and actually put
Amy Rowlinson: it into physicality, nothing will change.
Joanne Lockwood: That's interesting the way you described your business partner as having this
Joanne Lockwood: deep thought this this wasn't right for him. And
Joanne Lockwood: in a way, you have almost have to admire that with hindsight going Wellbeing person
Joanne Lockwood: said stop. I don't wanna keep doing this. This isn't gonna work for me. So
Joanne Lockwood: in a way, it's disappointing for you. But in in the same respect, you must
Joanne Lockwood: have you must have immensely respected the person to to to stop and
Joanne Lockwood: and and move in different ways. I'm actually really grateful. In my
Amy Rowlinson: first episode, I thanked him deeply because he saw
Amy Rowlinson: something in me that I hadn't seen. And he knew that it was right for
Amy Rowlinson: both of us. And again, I'd been sort of swept up with the
Amy Rowlinson: momentum and not really sort of questioned things. And jo, no, I'm
Amy Rowlinson: very grateful for that decision that he made because it did allow me
Amy Rowlinson: to then step up into a different space that I am absolutely
Amy Rowlinson: nothing. So sometimes the disappointing moments and
Amy Rowlinson: the decisions that you feel are out of your control
Amy Rowlinson: actually do serve you really well.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I know doing what I do, I I do find it sometimes quite
Joanne Lockwood: lonely working on your own. I
Joanne Lockwood: miss I miss sort of, like, the the
Joanne Lockwood: teamwork, the collaboration on things sometimes we so then it goes
Joanne Lockwood: Wellbeing you have this joint celebration, the high five ring the bell,
Joanne Lockwood: yay, did really good today. And if you're having a down day, there's people to
Joanne Lockwood: give you a hug and jo so having been
Joanne Lockwood: doing this for about, what, 3 or 4 years now, I still get those high
Joanne Lockwood: immense highs and immense lows. But how I've
Joanne Lockwood: overcome that is by having a network, friends
Joanne Lockwood: online, Zoom calls, chats, conversations like
Joanne Lockwood: this, Wellbeing, I suppose, being
Joanne Lockwood: authentic and vulnerable with people I speak to is sort of like I'm having a
Joanne Lockwood: bad day, I'm having a good day, sometimes I overshare on social media
Joanne Lockwood: And sometimes I, I share my passions or I share my
Joanne Lockwood: sadnesses. So I think that's quite important that people are going off on their own,
Joanne Lockwood: they need to find their kind of that their, their
Joanne Lockwood: little cheerleader on the, that sits on their shoulder every so often and gives them
Joanne Lockwood: a bit of a rah and someone can give them that hug when they need
Joanne Lockwood: it. That's kinda, quite a brave thing to do sometimes, isn't it? Just
Joanne Lockwood: setting off on your own. Absolutely. And and you're absolutely right in in
Amy Rowlinson: sharing the authenticity online of of not being this sort of 2
Amy Rowlinson: dimensional person. You are a real person. And you're
Amy Rowlinson: talking about all the problems that we all face, that we all
Amy Rowlinson: have different problems. We're all in different boats. But by
Amy Rowlinson: sharing the fact that we're not perfect, that things don't always go
Amy Rowlinson: well, you know, that's when people really do warm to you and
Amy Rowlinson: sort of recognize that you are not trying to sort of
Amy Rowlinson: hide behind this sort of mask. We're all hiding behind a mask
Amy Rowlinson: for a very different reason at the moment. But
Amy Rowlinson: we do sometimes hide our true selves. And it's
Amy Rowlinson: about showing who we really are online as well as
Amy Rowlinson: offline. And, yeah, if we need a hug, reach out for
Amy Rowlinson: 1, albeit a virtual one right now. But if you need it, ask for it
Amy Rowlinson: because people will gladly give it. And I
Amy Rowlinson: think people get sort of stuck in that
Amy Rowlinson: rescuerpersecutorsort of victim
Amy Rowlinson: triangle sometimes and realize that we're constantly moving
Amy Rowlinson: around them. But how do we actually sort of step outside of it? How do
Amy Rowlinson: we sort of move into a space where we can be, you
Amy Rowlinson: know, in at one with ourselves, but also show that
Amy Rowlinson: other people that we are all of these people at all different Bites.
Joanne Lockwood: Mhmm. I think for me, it's important to have this
Joanne Lockwood: supportive bubble around you. And I, I mean, we're probably a member
Joanne Lockwood: of similar Facebook groups or we we probably bump into each other quite a bit
Joanne Lockwood: on LinkedIn. And sometimes I just wanna say,
Joanne Lockwood: look at what? Look at this testimonial I got or I've done really well this
Joanne Lockwood: week and it's not it's actually not about being self servant
Joanne Lockwood: serving, it's not about pointing the finger and look at me everybody I'm fantastic Bites
Joanne Lockwood: going please could someone just go yo Jo, carry
Joanne Lockwood: on, well done, you're doing fantastic, that's what I want, I'm not after
Joanne Lockwood: anyone I'm thinking it's SEE talking to self emotion, it's me just saying,
Joanne Lockwood: someone please see me, someone please say hello, someone please go well done.
Joanne Lockwood: Because otherwise, you just don't get to do it. I've yeah, like
Joanne Lockwood: you, I speak at conferences and run training courses all over the world
Joanne Lockwood: and you often just get the end of the conference the
Joanne Lockwood: line goes click zoom window closes and it's
Joanne Lockwood: like is that it no one's going to give me a hug or say well
Joanne Lockwood: done Jo and sometimes you just need that though, you need that job well
Joanne Lockwood: done and unless you give it to yourself, no one
Joanne Lockwood: else is going to do it and I think sometimes we just need to find
Joanne Lockwood: a a bubble or a circle or a little load of friends who are prepared
Joanne Lockwood: to just give each other these hugs and go 'yay, well done' Even if it's
Joanne Lockwood: just a little care emoji or the little love emoji and just SEE, girl jo,
Joanne Lockwood: you've got this. And it just gives you that boost, doesn't it? It's like
Joanne Lockwood: that that virtual glass of Prosecco comes your way and you go,
Joanne Lockwood: I feel better now. Thank you. Well, it's it's with all those moments and, you
Amy Rowlinson: know, even even if you had been at that conference, the moment this as
Amy Rowlinson: you walk out the door or you go back to your sort of hotel bedroom
Amy Rowlinson: and you're on your own again, there is that sort of real moment of it
Amy Rowlinson: comes down and the high suddenly just sort of drops.
Amy Rowlinson: And we love the connection. And that's what, you know, we're always
Amy Rowlinson: seeking that sense of belonging. We're always seeking the networks to support
Amy Rowlinson: us. And, you know, absolutely ask for someone to to
Amy Rowlinson: give you that recognition that you deserve for that testimonial, that fantastic
Amy Rowlinson: delivery of the conference because, you know, why not? Because you would do it
Amy Rowlinson: for others. So why not ask sometimes to say, give me a high
Amy Rowlinson: five because this is awesome and be proud of what you've done. You know, there's
Amy Rowlinson: nothing wrong with that. It's it's about where you were and
Amy Rowlinson: where you've become and where you're going as Wellbeing and recognizing
Amy Rowlinson: and celebrating all those little wins along the journey
Amy Rowlinson: 100% because if you if you just keep on wanting that
Amy Rowlinson: big. Moment, it's never going to come so
Amy Rowlinson: recognize all the little steps I'm constantly
Amy Rowlinson: celebrating, you know, all the little moments because that's what's really
Amy Rowlinson: important in life. The other thing I
Joanne Lockwood: learned was that I was getting these kind of real down
Joanne Lockwood: days. And I was having these really, really, really big highs.
Joanne Lockwood: You know, I'd close a deal. I I get booking. I'd something
Joanne Lockwood: would happen. It was amazing. And the next day, I'd be really,
Joanne Lockwood: really kind of, like, down, miserable,
Joanne Lockwood: despondent. I started looking at it and I started realising that I
Joanne Lockwood: was these massive great highs, these brain chemicals, these
Joanne Lockwood: dopamines, endorphins, all these things going the thrill of the chase, the
Joanne Lockwood: catch, the cell, the well done, the next day you wake up
Joanne Lockwood: and those brain chemicals are are not there anymore and you go, I want more,
Joanne Lockwood: I want more. And that's where the this fit response SEE, oh, I'm not
Joanne Lockwood: good enough anymore. Nobody wants me today. It really was
Joanne Lockwood: affecting me. I had these big swings. It's only when I started
Joanne Lockwood: really trying to analyse it, I saw what was Happen. These big highs turning
Joanne Lockwood: into big lows. And what I needed to do is step back and recognize
Joanne Lockwood: that the world is no different than it was when I went to bed. There's
Joanne Lockwood: Bites happened is these brain chemicals have gone. And I was as positive
Joanne Lockwood: the word is so everything's going as well as it was yesterday, just
Joanne Lockwood: today I haven't had that high. And that's quite a big thing when
Joanne Lockwood: you're on your own or you're embarking where you have all these wins. You've got
Joanne Lockwood: to be ready for the crashes as well, haven't you? Totally. And I think that's
Amy Rowlinson: a really important message about sort of around mental health as well is
Amy Rowlinson: is to have the understanding that, you know, life and your
Amy Rowlinson: support network is so crucial to to you, to have the people
Amy Rowlinson: around you, just to have those sort of regular calls with people, just check-in on
Amy Rowlinson: them. And one thing I've done with quite a few people over lockdown is
Amy Rowlinson: just say, you know, what is it you need that I could help
Amy Rowlinson: with? How could I help you? This is a friend. And this isn't as a
Amy Rowlinson: coach. This is a friend. You know, because I know a lot of people who
Amy Rowlinson: are at home alone. You know, they're not in a family dynamic. I have the
Amy Rowlinson: benefit of sort of talking through my day with everybody at the end. And that
Amy Rowlinson: that really makes a massive difference. But when you're on your own and you haven't
Amy Rowlinson: got anyone to say, you know, today wasn't a great day and, you know, I
Amy Rowlinson: just want to have a little chat about Bites, and then for someone else to
Amy Rowlinson: sort of listen. And you introduced me right at the beginning and said that my
Amy Rowlinson: superpower was listening. And I know that I'm talking today on the podcast
Amy Rowlinson: with you here. But quite often on my podcast, I simply listen
Amy Rowlinson: because I'm listening to other people share their stories. And when I'm
Amy Rowlinson: coaching, again, it's all about listening. And actually, that's probably
Amy Rowlinson: something that I just would advocate to everybody is just
Amy Rowlinson: listen. You don't need to offer solutions. You just be there for someone
Amy Rowlinson: and just listen to them. Because quite often, just having that space for
Amy Rowlinson: someone to talk things through and and and talk it out is is as valuable
Amy Rowlinson: as you can get. I agree, Kavith. That's one
Joanne Lockwood: thing I talk about a lot in my DNI world,
Joanne Lockwood: the sense of belonging. You you belong when people hear you
Joanne Lockwood: and they truly hear you. They don't just listen to
Joanne Lockwood: respond, they actually listen to hear you and acknowledge
Joanne Lockwood: you and validate you and ask you for
Joanne Lockwood: 'okay', and it's not a kind of, you're right, I'm alright, you're
Joanne Lockwood: right. This is a real SEE. And one of the things I think we've all
Joanne Lockwood: learned from Lockwood, is that those old old superficials how are you
Joanne Lockwood: doing conversations used to be like 2 or 3 seconds in the old days when
Joanne Lockwood: we met each other. Now how are you doing is a 20 minute conversation
Joanne Lockwood: where we are more willing to be vulnerable, we are more willing to because,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, even though we're in the same storm on different boats, we are we
Joanne Lockwood: are still in the same storm. We can still talk about the lightning, the waves,
Joanne Lockwood: the the the pressure we're feeling, and we we can all relate in a way
Joanne Lockwood: to each other. So I think we've got we have got, like, a shared narrative
Joanne Lockwood: now. And no one no one is immune from this. I think that gives us
Joanne Lockwood: a great bit of solace to be able to say well actually, jo I'm struggling.
Joanne Lockwood: Now I've got elderly parents or I've we've, a close friend
Joanne Lockwood: has tested positive, I've now got to isolate or I'm worried about my children, I'm
Joanne Lockwood: worried about I've got to go to London tomorrow, I'm worried about getting on the
Joanne Lockwood: train, got all this anxiety about going back into the office now. So we
Joanne Lockwood: actually haven't there's enough people in our circle that we can share these
Joanne Lockwood: things with, whereas SEE before, we've had more isolated maybe. So
Joanne Lockwood: COVID in a way has also given us a much more bigger shared experience we
Joanne Lockwood: Happen can share. Yeah. I totally agree. And
Amy Rowlinson: with sharing it and understanding that, you know, it is affecting
Amy Rowlinson: people differently. And I mean, you only have to sort of don't I'm
Amy Rowlinson: not a big news watcher. I don't like watching the news because I I find
Amy Rowlinson: it it very negative. But when you do sort of see the stories and hear
Amy Rowlinson: the stories that people are sharing, I do realize that,
Amy Rowlinson: as you said earlier, that I probably am in a more privileged
Amy Rowlinson: position. But I have spent years
Amy Rowlinson: putting myself into that position. It wasn't always the case.
Amy Rowlinson: And understanding that we all have the
Amy Rowlinson: opportunity SEE. We all have different opportunities to do different
Amy Rowlinson: things and show our love to others in different
Amy Rowlinson: ways. And coming back to that sense of belonging,
Amy Rowlinson: becoming a member of a particular network has
Amy Rowlinson: probably been the best thing I've done. And I'm in several
Amy Rowlinson: different networks because I have different interests, and I have
Amy Rowlinson: different sort of worlds where they all sort of collide in one way or
Amy Rowlinson: another. Bites when I was speaking to you before II am
Amy Rowlinson: in different worlds, I'm in a property investment world. I'm in a
Amy Rowlinson: speaking world. I'm in a coaching world. I love dogs. Jo I
Amy Rowlinson: have, you know, a huge spaniel world around me as well. And Bites I
Amy Rowlinson: have different conversations with different people. And we all have
Amy Rowlinson: different interests. But again, it all comes back to supporting one
Amy Rowlinson: another. And something that I've been very mindful is the
Amy Rowlinson: amount of what we hear in terms of negativity in that environment
Amy Rowlinson: and how often it can sort of come in and affect your
Amy Rowlinson: world. And so I've been quite conscious of filtering out
Amy Rowlinson: the negative elements in my world and focusing on those people
Amy Rowlinson: that bring value and positivity to my world. And Bites something that
Amy Rowlinson: Jim Rohn says is that we become the average of the 5 people SEE spend
Amy Rowlinson: the most time with in terms of our health, our wealth, our
Amy Rowlinson: mindset, SEE way we dress, the way we speak our language,
Amy Rowlinson: everything. And so I challenge you to think about who are those 5 people
Amy Rowlinson: that you're spending the most time with and what value do they bring into your
Amy Rowlinson: space. And also
Joanne Lockwood: whether you're comfortable being that average,
Joanne Lockwood: is is the average you're becoming the average you're meant you
Joanne Lockwood: you know, we we talked about who you want to be or or how you
Joanne Lockwood: want to be and what you want to be. Is that average? Are you
Joanne Lockwood: doing that through positive choice or by osmosis?
Joanne Lockwood: Are you out of control? And maybe that's where some of us are having to
Joanne Lockwood: push stop and pause because we suddenly find ourselves
Joanne Lockwood: drifting off course and gravitating towards these 5 people or the
Joanne Lockwood: or or our echo chamber And really, we need to move away to a
Joanne Lockwood: different group of 5 people Joanne average somewhere else or set our own path and
Joanne Lockwood: bring people around us. And I think maybe that maybe that's the challenge that we're
Joanne Lockwood: uncovering here is that we drift into this this
Joanne Lockwood: osmosis with our with our network whereas I think as you said you've
Joanne Lockwood: you've got always multiple intersecting networks of your
Joanne Lockwood: work, your property, your your your dogs, your your coaching which
Joanne Lockwood: gives you a different sort of average than maybe people who are just
Joanne Lockwood: thinking about their work or just thinking about their hobby or just thinking about
Joanne Lockwood: parenthood. And you also have to be mindful that sometimes you
Amy Rowlinson: can get into a network or you have too many people
Amy Rowlinson: in that space. And you can actually serve nobody because you're
Amy Rowlinson: trying to juggle too many different relationships. And it's something
Amy Rowlinson: that Professor Peters mentions
Amy Rowlinson: in his book, The Chimp Paradox, is that your troop size actually gets too big
Amy Rowlinson: for you to be able to maintain. And this is something that's really important. It's
Amy Rowlinson: about focusing on some really solid relationships and
Amy Rowlinson: helping the people around you in the way that you can really give
Amy Rowlinson: them their attention. It comes back to listening again. So yes,
Amy Rowlinson: absolutely true about who are the people and are they the right
Amy Rowlinson: people. And as what I said right at the beginning about that sort of stopping
Amy Rowlinson: and pausing and you just said it again, and being in control
Amy Rowlinson: and being self aware and taking that responsibility
Amy Rowlinson: for your life. Because actually, it comes down to you. Nobody else is
Amy Rowlinson: going to do this. You can't expect anyone else to sort of rescue you. It's
Amy Rowlinson: you who's able to change the things that SEE happening.
Amy Rowlinson: Having that shift in mindset that things aren't happening to
Amy Rowlinson: you. You are in control. And SEE, lots
Amy Rowlinson: of different external events will change the way things happen to you. And there
Amy Rowlinson: are lots of things that are going to be difficult in your life. But it's
Amy Rowlinson: a case of just having them or seeing them as being on
Amy Rowlinson: your way and not in your way. Mhmm. I think
Joanne Lockwood: many of us have been surprised by some things that have gone on in the
Joanne Lockwood: world where we had a view of what we thought was gonna Happen,
Joanne Lockwood: and it didn't. Whether that's Brexit remain, whether that's
Joanne Lockwood: politics in the US, whether it's, Middle East,
Joanne Lockwood: Israel, wherever that may be, whatever. And I've I've learned that we're
Joanne Lockwood: not careful, we think we've got a diverse network Bites we do
Joanne Lockwood: homogenize around this echo chamber where people tend to have the same
Joanne Lockwood: conversations because naturally, we tend to lean away
Joanne Lockwood: where someone's saying things we don't want to, we react or we
Joanne Lockwood: mute them and we spend a lot of our time listening to what we
Joanne Lockwood: wanna hear. And one thing I like to do is Change people to actually open
Joanne Lockwood: the doors and put your ear and listen to what you wouldn't normally listen
Joanne Lockwood: to. You don't necessarily have to engage, you know, you're not gonna necessarily understand
Joanne Lockwood: or agree Bites just under but just know what other people are saying, why
Joanne Lockwood: they're saying it. And if SEE look very simply, if 70 odd
Joanne Lockwood: 1000000 people voted for 1 candidate in the US election and 75,
Joanne Lockwood: 76 people million people voted for the other candidate,
Joanne Lockwood: Clearly, 70,000,000 people is a lot of opinions that don't
Joanne Lockwood: necessarily agree with you or 76,000,000 people have voted.
Joanne Lockwood: There's a lot of people who agree with you or whatever, however, however you your
Joanne Lockwood: politics works. So you can't dismiss either side or either
Joanne Lockwood: opinions being invalid Because clearly, a lot of people
Joanne Lockwood: believe that. So I think being engaging in creative
Joanne Lockwood: doubt, engaging in in a way where you can understand why people feel
Joanne Lockwood: that what what's, what caused them to have that view?
Joanne Lockwood: What was in it in that message for 1 person that resonated?
Joanne Lockwood: What was in the message of the other person that didn't resonate? Why do you
Joanne Lockwood: feel you need this person to help you in your life? And we can look
Joanne Lockwood: at the same with Brexit, remain, whatever side of the fence you want. Some people
Joanne Lockwood: are passionate about 1, some people are passionate about the other. And so
Joanne Lockwood: both messages resonated almost equally with people. So
Joanne Lockwood: again, it's it's putting yourself out of your echo chamber to listen
Joanne Lockwood: to the the workings out of the people who disagree with you in
Joanne Lockwood: a constructive way, having those those those debates, having
Joanne Lockwood: those discussions in a safe space where you feel you can kind
Joanne Lockwood: of incorporate others people's narratives into your life. Otherwise, you just
Joanne Lockwood: constantly live in this act, as you say, the average of the 5 or the
Joanne Lockwood: the echo chamber you're in, would ever really understand the rest of the
Joanne Lockwood: world. When we think about, you said right at the beginning about
Joanne Lockwood: treating your children with equity rather than
Joanne Lockwood: equality, if you like, you know, you give them what they SEE. We also need
Joanne Lockwood: to understand what other people need and what other people feel and what other
Joanne Lockwood: people have they're scared of and sometimes they this
Joanne Lockwood: their fear is coming out in the way they vote for the way they align
Joanne Lockwood: themselves. So I think it's very important that yeah, listening
Joanne Lockwood: is really key to understanding how people are feeling and why
Joanne Lockwood: people feel the way they do. Totally agree with you. And
Amy Rowlinson: I I love hearing different perspectives. And something that
Amy Rowlinson: I talk about is I heard this
Amy Rowlinson: description. It's absolutely fantastic. And it's about a beach ball. And
Amy Rowlinson: the beach ball, the sort of old fashioned one, which used to have the 6
Amy Rowlinson: colors. So you've got your orange, white, blue, green, yellow, and red.
Amy Rowlinson: And if you hold that beach ball and you're facing it, what
Amy Rowlinson: you see is you see 3 colors and the other person across the way sees
Amy Rowlinson: the other 3 colors. So you're describing things very differently. But actually,
Amy Rowlinson: you're talking about the same thing. And sometimes, this is where you
Amy Rowlinson: may have similar or sort of
Amy Rowlinson: different perspectives. And yet you could actually be talking about the same
Amy Rowlinson: thing. But it's challenging and others to sort of
Amy Rowlinson: really think or really feel or really hear or
Amy Rowlinson: see what the other person is thinking about something.
Amy Rowlinson: And this comes down to communication. It comes down to, as you
Amy Rowlinson: say, the difference in opinions. You could actually be talking
Amy Rowlinson: about the same thing or have the same values. But you're coming from it
Amy Rowlinson: from very different perspectives. Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: And as I say, there's the equation is SEE plus r
Joanne Lockwood: equals o. You have an event, you have a reaction, leads to an
Joanne Lockwood: outcome. But the difference is how you perceive that event, how you react it
Joanne Lockwood: causes you to react in Diversity way, therefore, it leads into an outcome. So
Joanne Lockwood: 2 people could have a Diversity view of the same thing. And
Joanne Lockwood: therefore the parts are different, which is why I always talk about showing your workings
Joanne Lockwood: out, tell me why you perceive it that way, not just
Joanne Lockwood: you perceive it that way, then we can then we can agree that actually we
Joanne Lockwood: have the same motive, we've just come to a different conclusion,
Joanne Lockwood: based on lived experience, our perspective, or something that I
Joanne Lockwood: don't know about you or you don't know about SEE. And that that's where it's
Joanne Lockwood: it's that's where we need to be curious to know why someone thinks that, not
Joanne Lockwood: what they think. It's fascinating. And, you know, having studied
Amy Rowlinson: NLP and and understand sort of, you know, the different maps that
Amy Rowlinson: we have and how we all sort of have very different worlds that
Amy Rowlinson: we all live in because of our experiences and our beliefs and our
Amy Rowlinson: values, you know, it really is a fascinating topic to know
Amy Rowlinson: that if you had, you know, 100 people or a 1000000 people even
Amy Rowlinson: in one space, they're all seeing and thinking and
Amy Rowlinson: and hearing different things, even though they're in the same location.
Amy Rowlinson: And it is fantastic. I find that fascinating, absolutely
Amy Rowlinson: incredible. And with that, again,
Amy Rowlinson: we're all in the same world. But we're all having very different
Amy Rowlinson: lives. And that's where it comes back to having the
Amy Rowlinson: diversity and Inclusion. I just I am fascinated by the lives
Amy Rowlinson: that other people are living. This is what you say
Joanne Lockwood: about that. There's a there's a study, wasn't it? If you ask a
Joanne Lockwood: 1,000 or 10,000 people to to guess how many sweets were in a jar,
Joanne Lockwood: that you average every answer
Joanne Lockwood: and the average is likely to be the correct answer or the the more people
Joanne Lockwood: you have contributing, the more likely the average of the answer is gonna be correct.
Joanne Lockwood: And they did a similar thought of thing where someone got lost at sea SEE
Joanne Lockwood: they asked everybody to guess where they thought this person might be based on the
Joanne Lockwood: evidence. And it turned out the average of where this person was was very
Joanne Lockwood: close to where they were. And, it's fascinating that
Joanne Lockwood: you because because I suppose in the human psyche, we all come up with very
Joanne Lockwood: wide guesses left, right, too high, too small. But we all kind
Joanne Lockwood: of homogenise around the kind of the average Joanne. And it's
Joanne Lockwood: jo as much as we think we're escaping our programming by by doing this,
Joanne Lockwood: we actually come to maybe a more succinct view of the world
Joanne Lockwood: which is a a combination of everybody's opinions is what is where the
Joanne Lockwood: truth lies. I guess it comes back to belonging.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Yeah and connecting because that's what you know. That's what we we
Amy Rowlinson: essentially want to do. We want to have that sense of belonging and yet you
Amy Rowlinson: know we also want to stand out. We want to be heard. We want to
Amy Rowlinson: be we want to be different. But we also want to connect.
Amy Rowlinson: So there's there's always a bit of a juxtaposition there.
Joanne Lockwood: So So we we started off with the podcast. You know, it's never too late
Joanne Lockwood: to be what you might have been. So would you see the difference between that
Joanne Lockwood: and who you might have been? Is that a what or who? Yeah. Is there
Joanne Lockwood: is there a difference there? I think there's a great difference, a great semantic sort
Amy Rowlinson: of difference there. So if you if you are thinking about who you might have
Amy Rowlinson: been, that's, you know, who you are as a person who who you
Amy Rowlinson: are and what is it you're and then and then the what is what
Amy Rowlinson: is it you're going to do to become that who? So it's
Amy Rowlinson: it they're linked heavily. And for me, it's it's again, it
Amy Rowlinson: comes back to the sort of the journey that we're on and, who we
Amy Rowlinson: become is very much as a result of our
Amy Rowlinson: actions and what we do. And it's fascinating. I
Amy Rowlinson: could talk about this all day. In terms of what what we're doing
Amy Rowlinson: on an everyday basis and how how we can make
Amy Rowlinson: that impact. And it doesn't matter. You know, it doesn't matter what it is that
Amy Rowlinson: we're doing. It's knowing that it is a value to other people. It's
Amy Rowlinson: a value to to those who you're serving and
Amy Rowlinson: for SEE, I was I was I felt that I was drifting
Amy Rowlinson: and that I was volunteering. And I was a mom.
Amy Rowlinson: And Bites I knew that there was something else that I could do, but I
Amy Rowlinson: just didn't know how. And again, you know, jo it's the who, the what, and
Amy Rowlinson: the how. And then it was finally sort of connecting those
Amy Rowlinson: Bites. And I realized that I was able to do so
Amy Rowlinson: many more things. And it was it was it was
Amy Rowlinson: a difficult process. It wasn't easy. You know, it was it was a
Amy Rowlinson: who am I to do this? And then it was like, well, who am I
Amy Rowlinson: not to do this process? You know, you're constantly in that battle of, you
Amy Rowlinson: know, well, I'd like to produce a podcast. And, well, why would you?
Amy Rowlinson: Who would listen to you? And then it was like, well, why wouldn't people listen
Amy Rowlinson: to you? The whole sort of again, I talk about the imposter syndrome.
Amy Rowlinson: And just by sort of showcasing
Amy Rowlinson: other people, it has enabled people all around the
Amy Rowlinson: world to speak out, to change what they're doing,
Amy Rowlinson: to be inspired and take the action that they've been
Amy Rowlinson: wanting to. And this is what's happened as a ripple effect of
Amy Rowlinson: me stepping out of that comfort zone into that growth zone.
Amy Rowlinson: So when you say it's never too late to be who, you might have been,
Amy Rowlinson: well, if the podcasting was who, the what
Amy Rowlinson: was by being a broadcaster and doing it and creating this
Amy Rowlinson: show that I have has allowed other people to listen to
Amy Rowlinson: the stories that people share on that show. And then as a
Amy Rowlinson: result, other people Happen then said, well, if they've done it,
Amy Rowlinson: well, I'm going to do that. I'm going to write that book that I've always
Amy Rowlinson: been saying I was going to do, or I'm going to create my
Amy Rowlinson: own show and do that. And as a result of that, you know, the ripple
Amy Rowlinson: effect keeps on going. And you know, you just never know
Amy Rowlinson: what you're going to and who you're going to impact by
Amy Rowlinson: what you do. And that's what I love. And, you know, your show, Jo,
Amy Rowlinson: you may never even hear of the impact that you've made on somebody
Amy Rowlinson: because they may not reach out to you. But those that do, and you know,
Amy Rowlinson: I hear you told me earlier that lots of people reach out and share what
Amy Rowlinson: they have done by listening to your show and what impact it's and how it's
Amy Rowlinson: helped them. Think of all those people that haven't reached out and you've
Amy Rowlinson: helped. For sure. And you're so
Joanne Lockwood: right that we we constantly sort of
Joanne Lockwood: judge ourselves and SEE, what what if people don't like me? Rather than saying,
Joanne Lockwood: what if people love me? What if people love SEE? And then start with
Joanne Lockwood: that. You're talking to the people who want to hear from you, you're talking to
Joanne Lockwood: people who do love you. And if people don't wanna listen, that's fine. Don't worry
Joanne Lockwood: about them, worry about the people who do. I'd rather have 2 people who love
Joanne Lockwood: me and 98 people who don't and then the 2 people are
Joanne Lockwood: passionate. I've made a difference As long as as long as one
Joanne Lockwood: person listens and one person cares, that's what we're here for, isn't it? And,
Joanne Lockwood: I yeah. Don't beat ourselves up about about the 98. Just
Joanne Lockwood: celebrate the 2. Yeah. And those 2 will become evangelists and those twos
Joanne Lockwood: will become 4, will become 8, will become 16. So focus on what you do
Joanne Lockwood: well and not worry about the and not worry about other people's
Joanne Lockwood: negative opinions or your own actually most of it is your perceived
Joanne Lockwood: opinion of what other people think. You're actually making stuff up about people.
Joanne Lockwood: You're prejudging things yourself. Yeah. That's Change. Perception and projection,
Amy Rowlinson: dangerous. Absolutely. You know, don't don't think your mind reading. Just, you
Amy Rowlinson: know, ask ask people for what it is they're actually
Amy Rowlinson: thinking. And just by starting small and and
Amy Rowlinson: focusing on small changes in your life and taking the
Amy Rowlinson: small actions each day. I mean, we all know the power of the compound
Amy Rowlinson: effect and how it can make a huge difference. This is why
Amy Rowlinson: just knowing your purpose and having a plan for me is
Amy Rowlinson: so crucial because, you know, then there's direction. There is that
Amy Rowlinson: focus that you you're talking about. And it's simple. Just
Amy Rowlinson: focus on why you're doing what you're doing.
Joanne Lockwood: Well, on that note, Amy, thank you so much. I'm sure everyone
Joanne Lockwood: listening will agree there's much to ponder and take inspiration from.
Joanne Lockwood: How could people get in touch with you, if you like it? Well, thank you
Amy Rowlinson: very much. It's been an absolute pleasure being on the podcast today, Jo. SEE,
Amy Rowlinson: yes, people can keep in contact with me. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on
Amy Rowlinson: Facebook. I'm on Instagram. I've got my website.
Amy Rowlinson: So, yeah, please reach out. I'm sure you'll include all the links in the show
Amy Rowlinson: notes. I will do. And tell everyone briefly about your
Joanne Lockwood: podcast. So what is your podcast? The podcast is called Inclusion
Amy Rowlinson: Why. And it's relatable, uplifting, and inspiring conversations with
Amy Rowlinson: people from all walks of life just simply sharing why they do what they
Amy Rowlinson: do. So if people wanna listen to more about
Joanne Lockwood: your own message and the people you talk to, then tune into that podcast. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: gonna subscribe later and have a listen to some of those episodes as well. So
Joanne Lockwood: thank you, Amy. https://amyrowlinson.com
Joanne Lockwood: Bites your website. I'll put them in the show notes as well. Connect on Inclusion,
Joanne Lockwood: say hi. I'm sure Amy would love to hear from you. As would I, of
Joanne Lockwood: course. So a huge thank you to you, the listener,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm I'm I'm hoping I'm sure there's more than one of you out there. Thank
Joanne Lockwood: you for tuning in. Thank you for listening. Please do subscribe to keep
Joanne Lockwood: updated on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast, that
Joanne Lockwood: B-I-T-E-S. Please tell your friends, if you have any, and your
Joanne Lockwood: colleagues, if you if you're not working alone at home. I have a
Joanne Lockwood: number of exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you'll be inspired by over
Joanne Lockwood: the next few weeks or months. Remember also if you'd like to be a guest
Joanne Lockwood: yourself then please do let me know. As always, I'd welcome
Joanne Lockwood: any comments, feedback, suggestions to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: Tell me how you can improve. Tell me what you like. Tell me what you
Joanne Lockwood: hate. So my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been an absolute pleasure
Joanne Lockwood: to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time.
Joanne Lockwood: Bye.