WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.159 --> 00:00:06.000 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host for 2 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:09.645 the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a 3 00:00:09.645 --> 00:00:13.325 number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subject 4 00:00:13.325 --> 00:00:16.940 of inclusion, Belonging, and generally making the world a 5 00:00:16.940 --> 00:00:20.460 better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the 6 00:00:20.460 --> 00:00:22.940 future, then please do drop me a line 7 00:00:22.940 --> 00:00:25.705 tojo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 8 00:00:27.125 --> 00:00:30.965 That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You 9 00:00:30.965 --> 00:00:34.590 better catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify and their 10 00:00:34.590 --> 00:00:38.110 usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a 11 00:00:38.110 --> 00:00:41.875 decaf and let's get going. Today 12 00:00:42.094 --> 00:00:45.824 is episode 23 with the Bites, Belonging 13 00:00:45.855 --> 00:00:49.454 Your Fear and Anxiety. And I have the absolute honour and 14 00:00:49.454 --> 00:00:53.170 privilege to be joined by Mark Wingfield. Mark 15 00:00:53.170 --> 00:00:56.930 describes himself as someone who empowers individuals by giving them 16 00:00:56.930 --> 00:01:00.615 hugely practical techniques to handle whatever life may throw at 17 00:01:00.615 --> 00:01:04.075 them. And when I asked Mark to describe his superpower, 18 00:01:04.295 --> 00:01:06.635 he said my empathy. 19 00:01:08.530 --> 00:01:12.210 So hello, Mark. Welcome to the show. Hello, Jo. Thank you very much 20 00:01:12.210 --> 00:01:16.045 indeed. It's great to be here. So tell 21 00:01:17.145 --> 00:01:20.825 me, why do you feel reducing your fear and anxiety is important? What does that 22 00:01:20.825 --> 00:01:24.479 mean to you? I think it's so universal 23 00:01:24.539 --> 00:01:28.380 that if you don't manage to conquer fears and anxiety, how 24 00:01:28.380 --> 00:01:32.075 on earth are you gonna be able to achieve your potential? There are so 25 00:01:32.075 --> 00:01:35.454 many things that can hold people back 26 00:01:36.075 --> 00:01:39.830 and not allow them to perform to their best. And with 27 00:01:39.830 --> 00:01:43.130 all the richness that we have in our society, 28 00:01:44.070 --> 00:01:47.744 there are people that I work with who are discriminated 29 00:01:47.805 --> 00:01:51.564 against, who are bullied, who are maltreated in 30 00:01:51.564 --> 00:01:54.924 some way, or ignored for however they turn 31 00:01:54.924 --> 00:01:58.250 up. But it's my privilege to actually 32 00:01:59.030 --> 00:02:02.409 help empower them to deal with whatever they have to go through, 33 00:02:02.869 --> 00:02:06.265 acknowledge any fears and anxiety they may have, and give them some 34 00:02:06.265 --> 00:02:09.625 techniques that will allow them to deal with 35 00:02:09.625 --> 00:02:13.420 it appropriately, effectively, and 36 00:02:13.420 --> 00:02:17.180 really achieve a 100% of what they're capable of 37 00:02:17.180 --> 00:02:17.680 achieving. 38 00:02:20.845 --> 00:02:24.685 In the D&I circle, I often hear people talk about bringing their whole self 39 00:02:24.685 --> 00:02:28.430 to work. And what you've just said there is really quite powerful because 40 00:02:28.430 --> 00:02:29.730 you say holding back, 41 00:02:32.270 --> 00:02:36.115 walking away. But we talk about getting people to 42 00:02:36.115 --> 00:02:39.955 bring this their whole self to work. And I often say this, it's very 43 00:02:39.955 --> 00:02:43.660 easy for you to say, not necessarily SEE easy for me to do, 44 00:02:43.660 --> 00:02:47.020 the more typical you are, the less the stress you have in your life, the 45 00:02:47.020 --> 00:02:50.435 easier it is to be yourself, isn't it? But as soon as you've got something 46 00:02:50.435 --> 00:02:54.115 that's hidden within you, there's this anxiety that builds and 47 00:02:54.115 --> 00:02:57.670 this fear of being discovered almost, isn't it? Yes. 48 00:02:57.670 --> 00:03:01.350 And I think some of that is you will 49 00:03:01.350 --> 00:03:05.110 appear different for whatever reason, whether it's the color of your skin or 50 00:03:05.110 --> 00:03:08.575 whether it's the way you dress or how you sound, 51 00:03:09.275 --> 00:03:13.115 how you come across in some other way, whether it's a disability or whatever 52 00:03:13.115 --> 00:03:16.690 it might be. And people 53 00:03:16.690 --> 00:03:20.370 form their own impressions immediately. They and you're aware of 54 00:03:20.370 --> 00:03:24.210 that. You know, everybody has unconscious bias of some kind, but 55 00:03:24.210 --> 00:03:27.345 some people have overt prejudice discrimination. 56 00:03:29.325 --> 00:03:32.465 And dealing with that can be really tough. So 57 00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:37.600 I try and just provide something that will work for an individual, and 58 00:03:37.600 --> 00:03:41.060 that can go from just simply communication 59 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:44.755 techniques to staying calm when 60 00:03:44.755 --> 00:03:48.515 you're terrified or just a little bit nervous. Or 61 00:03:48.515 --> 00:03:52.190 if this is based on trauma, I 62 00:03:52.190 --> 00:03:55.630 work as a trauma therapist to take away the 63 00:03:55.630 --> 00:03:58.370 emotional context jo that 64 00:03:59.535 --> 00:04:03.215 people can actually function without worrying about how they feel 65 00:04:03.215 --> 00:04:05.670 about it. They just do what they need to do. 66 00:04:08.230 --> 00:04:11.530 So Bites it's kind of a a colorful 67 00:04:12.310 --> 00:04:15.745 array of things I've I try and bring to the 68 00:04:16.205 --> 00:04:20.045 party. Does it affect younger people 69 00:04:20.045 --> 00:04:23.345 more than older people, women more than men, 70 00:04:23.870 --> 00:04:27.710 white people less than not white people, straight people less than 71 00:04:27.710 --> 00:04:31.150 not straight people or is it you can't be that clear 72 00:04:31.150 --> 00:04:34.695 cut? I I don't think you can be that clear cut. I think that 73 00:04:35.315 --> 00:04:38.755 everybody, whatever shape or form or color 74 00:04:38.755 --> 00:04:42.580 or however they show up, We all have our own fears 75 00:04:42.580 --> 00:04:46.100 and anxieties, so no nobody's without fear and 76 00:04:46.100 --> 00:04:49.685 anxiety for whatever reason, but the grades of that and the type of fear and 77 00:04:49.685 --> 00:04:52.985 anxiety will obviously differ hugely. And 78 00:04:54.004 --> 00:04:56.264 I think if you talk about young people, 79 00:04:58.630 --> 00:05:02.230 it's it's a tough time growing up, isn't it? So it's also a fantastic, 80 00:05:02.230 --> 00:05:05.690 exuberant time and a fun time, and you got all your health, hopefully, and 81 00:05:06.294 --> 00:05:09.914 your your full physical abilities, hopefully, 82 00:05:10.215 --> 00:05:13.250 or you have my might have some kind of limitations. But 83 00:05:14.450 --> 00:05:16.870 in those formative years, they will 84 00:05:18.770 --> 00:05:22.585 dictate so much for the rest of your life. And there are all 85 00:05:22.585 --> 00:05:26.104 sorts of different studies that I'm sure you're aware of as many, if not more, 86 00:05:26.104 --> 00:05:29.700 as as I that, you know, for example, 87 00:05:29.840 --> 00:05:33.220 by the age of 8, you're more or less there. 88 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:37.175 That's kind of you. And it's 89 00:05:37.235 --> 00:05:40.835 it's detail that's gonna be layered on top of that, but your the fundamental who 90 00:05:40.835 --> 00:05:44.595 you are is kind of by the age of 8. Now there's there's lots of 91 00:05:44.595 --> 00:05:48.020 different studies, and there'll be people that disagree with that comment. 92 00:05:48.020 --> 00:05:51.780 But, certainly, all what we do know is 93 00:05:51.780 --> 00:05:55.380 that those formative years are absolutely crucial. And if something happens to you in those 94 00:05:55.380 --> 00:05:58.805 formative years that's negative, then that can stay with 95 00:05:58.805 --> 00:06:02.565 you and be a real drawback for the rest of your life unless 96 00:06:02.565 --> 00:06:04.104 you can do something about it. 97 00:06:06.330 --> 00:06:10.170 Do you think that the modern world you know whether that's online 98 00:06:10.170 --> 00:06:13.545 gaming, social media, the selfie 99 00:06:13.545 --> 00:06:17.385 culture, increases the anxieties that people may 100 00:06:17.385 --> 00:06:20.960 have or introduces new new 101 00:06:20.960 --> 00:06:24.720 threats into people's lives? Yes. I do. And I'm 102 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:28.340 thinking one very specific response that, I've been 103 00:06:29.235 --> 00:06:32.915 I've been mulling over the a comment that's often 104 00:06:32.915 --> 00:06:36.520 asked of me. People often ask me, do you think nowadays we're 105 00:06:36.520 --> 00:06:40.040 more aggressive and violent towards people than we used to 106 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:43.020 be? And I'm not sure that's, 107 00:06:43.525 --> 00:06:47.125 well, go back 13 years, 14 years when I first started my 108 00:06:47.125 --> 00:06:50.805 business. I used to say, I don't think 109 00:06:50.921 --> 00:06:54.350 jo, really. I'm not too sure about that. I think it's just a different type 110 00:06:54.350 --> 00:06:57.710 of aggression and violence. But 111 00:06:57.710 --> 00:07:01.425 now with the age of modern technology and 112 00:07:01.425 --> 00:07:04.725 this instant culture that we have, instant gratification, 113 00:07:05.585 --> 00:07:08.325 you know, you pick up your phone and you have the answer to 114 00:07:09.710 --> 00:07:13.390 generally everything in some kind of form, whether it's right or wrong, but you'll get 115 00:07:13.390 --> 00:07:17.170 a you'll get a response. You can put it into Google or whatever your preferred 116 00:07:17.565 --> 00:07:21.405 search engine is and find out something. And because people are so used to 117 00:07:21.405 --> 00:07:24.785 that, further down the road 118 00:07:25.005 --> 00:07:28.740 and they can access, all 119 00:07:28.740 --> 00:07:31.800 sorts of games and things that require 120 00:07:32.659 --> 00:07:36.375 action and response. We 121 00:07:36.375 --> 00:07:40.215 have instant you know, you go onto 122 00:07:40.215 --> 00:07:43.950 the London tube nowadays, and we have a little card, the Oyster 123 00:07:43.950 --> 00:07:47.790 card, and it'll let you through with your payment. Everything goes smoothly 124 00:07:47.790 --> 00:07:51.485 like that. If you go onto the Internet, you can pay immediately for something. 125 00:07:51.705 --> 00:07:55.465 Everything is instant or a lot of things are now instant. And 126 00:07:55.465 --> 00:07:58.520 when suddenly things aren't at that pace 127 00:07:59.620 --> 00:08:02.759 or your expectation that it will be is now 128 00:08:03.380 --> 00:08:07.165 unsatisfied, that's when you get a whole host of 129 00:08:07.165 --> 00:08:11.005 new issues, that perhaps 130 00:08:11.005 --> 00:08:14.705 weren't there before because the speed of things nowadays is so fast. 131 00:08:16.080 --> 00:08:19.460 And that permeates into so many different other areas. 132 00:08:21.280 --> 00:08:24.745 You know, if you only look at social media, I I work in schools, for 133 00:08:24.824 --> 00:08:27.725 example, work with young children, young adults 134 00:08:29.065 --> 00:08:30.604 on bullying. And 135 00:08:32.909 --> 00:08:36.270 with all the social media that there is now, things like Snapchat where you 136 00:08:36.270 --> 00:08:40.110 can make some comment and it disappears unless somebody's taking a 137 00:08:40.110 --> 00:08:43.534 screen grab of it, That has a whole host of 138 00:08:44.075 --> 00:08:47.915 new challenges that weren't there before. It's Belonging, but in 139 00:08:47.915 --> 00:08:49.615 a slightly Diversity form. 140 00:08:51.576 --> 00:08:55.399 Jo when I was first initially talking about bullying in schools, it 141 00:08:55.399 --> 00:08:58.700 was very much face to face techniques, how to deal with bullies. 142 00:08:59.504 --> 00:09:03.345 But as time has gone on, people have been asking increasingly about cyberbullying tactics 143 00:09:03.345 --> 00:09:06.725 and how you can prevent and protect from a 144 00:09:07.185 --> 00:09:10.720 a technology point of view. You still need the face to face stuff, 145 00:09:11.020 --> 00:09:14.860 but it's it's been I I've noticed it over the 146 00:09:14.860 --> 00:09:17.440 years that Bites certainly moved more into a 147 00:09:18.435 --> 00:09:22.275 technological side of things. Yeah. 148 00:09:22.275 --> 00:09:25.575 I remember at school, I I would I would definitely say I was excessively 149 00:09:25.715 --> 00:09:29.350 bullied, but I I did experience 150 00:09:29.570 --> 00:09:33.330 some minor where you shoulder barge into you 151 00:09:33.330 --> 00:09:36.885 occasionally or the in crowd 152 00:09:36.885 --> 00:09:39.785 would exclude you or make you feel uncomfortable, 153 00:09:40.245 --> 00:09:43.750 more passive intimidation if that makes sense or kind of the lockwood 154 00:09:44.410 --> 00:09:47.790 looks and the potential threat of something happening rather than the actual. 155 00:09:48.250 --> 00:09:52.005 There was always the kind of that that kind of implication 156 00:09:52.065 --> 00:09:55.525 that something might happen which is psychological rather than physical which is 157 00:09:55.585 --> 00:09:58.965 I've never I've not Belonging trauma of it but I suppose 158 00:09:59.450 --> 00:10:02.750 I've become kind of hyper aware of bullying since 159 00:10:03.290 --> 00:10:07.130 I transitioned myself because I'm hyper aware that I 160 00:10:07.130 --> 00:10:10.845 polarize the views of certain people and there are people in 161 00:10:10.845 --> 00:10:14.445 this country and around the world that have a kind of an 162 00:10:14.445 --> 00:10:18.285 anti or a gender critical view of the world where 163 00:10:18.285 --> 00:10:21.410 trans people are seen as being a threat to that view. 164 00:10:22.510 --> 00:10:26.130 And I have suffered in some ways 165 00:10:26.190 --> 00:10:29.375 stalking and and sort of cyber 166 00:10:29.755 --> 00:10:33.274 commenting on posts on LinkedIn, Instagram, I've been the 167 00:10:33.274 --> 00:10:36.709 target of comments on newspaper 168 00:10:37.410 --> 00:10:40.690 chat comments on the newspaper sites because I appeared in the Sunday Times and the 169 00:10:40.690 --> 00:10:43.525 Daily Mail and the Mirror, I think about that a few years ago and some 170 00:10:43.525 --> 00:10:47.085 of the comments beneath that. I also took Bites a documentary online, to a channel 171 00:10:47.085 --> 00:10:50.685 for documentary. Mhmm. And to see the some of the comments on the Facebook 172 00:10:50.685 --> 00:10:54.329 post about that and people wading in. And I just 173 00:10:54.329 --> 00:10:58.009 also just started an article, a monthly column with the, the Scottish 174 00:10:58.009 --> 00:11:01.805 Herald. Mhmm. And last month, I last one I did was 175 00:11:01.805 --> 00:11:05.565 about language, I talked about gendered language and all various other things and this seems 176 00:11:05.565 --> 00:11:09.005 to have rattled the cage of somebody who's gender critical and suddenly 177 00:11:09.005 --> 00:11:12.430 it's I I end up with all this trolling, they stalked me on 178 00:11:12.606 --> 00:11:15.790 Inclusion, they and a whole load of people found me on Linkedin, a whole load 179 00:11:15.790 --> 00:11:19.635 of people found me on Twitter, taking the article completely out 180 00:11:19.635 --> 00:11:23.415 of context and putting their own their own thread on this which 181 00:11:23.875 --> 00:11:27.415 is kind of hijacking and it wasn't directly targeted at me but I suddenly realized 182 00:11:27.555 --> 00:11:31.300 that I was now vulnerable again and raised my head 183 00:11:31.300 --> 00:11:35.060 above the parapet where people were gonna, you know, I now became a target or 184 00:11:35.060 --> 00:11:38.595 something jo yeah, it's very interesting and I'm now thinking that next article I'm 185 00:11:38.595 --> 00:11:42.355 writing in December and almost in the 186 00:11:42.355 --> 00:11:45.840 back of my mind, I'm worried again about what the the 187 00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:48.640 backlash may be was but the first three I wrote I had I had 188 00:11:48.780 --> 00:11:52.535 Joanne of that thought was in my head, I was writing for my own lived 189 00:11:52.535 --> 00:11:56.295 experience Bites now I'm thinking I've got to double think what I'm saying and 190 00:11:56.295 --> 00:11:59.975 that- this is the problem, isn't it? I'm now in this zone where I've 191 00:11:59.975 --> 00:12:03.500 got to worry about it. Oh, well, I I could help you with that. 192 00:12:04.520 --> 00:12:08.360 No. I'm terribly sorry, Ken. Because, I 193 00:12:08.360 --> 00:12:11.785 mean, when when you first started talking about schools and that's 194 00:12:11.785 --> 00:12:15.465 something I I hear about a lot, but also have experienced 195 00:12:15.465 --> 00:12:18.445 myself because, unfortunately, I wasn't 196 00:12:18.930 --> 00:12:22.550 badly bullied any more than other people at school. 197 00:12:22.769 --> 00:12:26.290 But I think it it happens to probably most people at some 198 00:12:26.290 --> 00:12:29.675 point in some shape or form, and I was no exception. 199 00:12:29.894 --> 00:12:33.654 And I can remember the jostling and the exclusion and 200 00:12:33.654 --> 00:12:37.449 the, I mean, I I even talk about something when 201 00:12:37.449 --> 00:12:41.050 when I speak about bullying. I talk about, jungle 202 00:12:41.050 --> 00:12:44.395 treatment, which is, people circling 203 00:12:44.455 --> 00:12:48.295 me, wanting to knock me down, and feed grass in my mouth. That's 204 00:12:48.295 --> 00:12:52.110 the shortened version. And I didn't let it happen. I'd seen it 205 00:12:52.110 --> 00:12:55.490 happen to other people, and I I SEE techniques very crudely, 206 00:12:56.670 --> 00:13:00.165 that came instinctively, but stopped people doing 207 00:13:00.165 --> 00:13:03.845 anything. And, so it's this a more refined technique that I 208 00:13:03.845 --> 00:13:06.745 talk to people about. But when you're talking about 209 00:13:09.430 --> 00:13:12.089 transitioning and and talking about that, and 210 00:13:13.189 --> 00:13:16.970 you talk about various newspapers and, how you're concerned 211 00:13:17.029 --> 00:13:20.524 about what's gonna happen 212 00:13:20.524 --> 00:13:24.285 next and how it's gonna affect you, I think you're doing absolutely the 213 00:13:24.285 --> 00:13:27.959 right thing because these things need to be talked about and addressed. But from 214 00:13:27.959 --> 00:13:31.480 a personal perspective, something I do as a a stronger 215 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:35.100 therapist could help you take away that 216 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:39.485 that emotional, concern and and 217 00:13:39.485 --> 00:13:42.845 enable you to write without thinking too much about 218 00:13:42.845 --> 00:13:46.680 the the emotion. You still need to think about the 219 00:13:46.680 --> 00:13:50.440 consequences and that that will still be there. But if you can take out the 220 00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:53.500 emotion element, you're probably right at a better pace, I would suggest. 221 00:13:54.895 --> 00:13:58.495 Yeah. I think I'm more likely to just proofread it a second time rather 222 00:13:58.495 --> 00:14:02.339 than with just the extra lens on it. I'm 223 00:14:02.560 --> 00:14:06.339 a pretty resilient person and this hasn't I haven't internalized this but 224 00:14:06.399 --> 00:14:09.779 it just woke me up to the fact that there are 225 00:14:10.765 --> 00:14:14.205 I'm not as safe as I was, if you like, or I'm more likely to 226 00:14:14.205 --> 00:14:17.745 be. But then if we look at the press, whatever I wrote about, 227 00:14:18.040 --> 00:14:21.880 someone's got to make a comment about it that's that's what people do they troll 228 00:14:21.880 --> 00:14:25.720 these these press sites and they they become keyboard warriors, they 229 00:14:25.720 --> 00:14:29.404 hide behind anonymity of Twitter and things jo I think 230 00:14:30.825 --> 00:14:34.345 it just reminded me that this went on because I often live a very privileged 231 00:14:34.345 --> 00:14:37.610 life of not caring or not thinking and it just it was just kind of 232 00:14:37.610 --> 00:14:40.410 like a knock on the door going, don't forget about me sort of thing. I 233 00:14:40.410 --> 00:14:44.010 thought, oh, yeah. You're still there. Okay. Yep. Mhmm. Now you're 234 00:14:44.010 --> 00:14:47.375 there. And and it's worth thinking also that there will be a lot of people 235 00:14:47.375 --> 00:14:50.815 out there who you're you're a resilient person. I'm a pretty resilient 236 00:14:50.815 --> 00:14:54.220 person, But there are other people out there who might be in a similar situation 237 00:14:54.220 --> 00:14:57.900 as us who aren't as resilient. And, I won't I won't 238 00:14:57.900 --> 00:15:01.444 mention the details, but something happened recently, that 239 00:15:01.444 --> 00:15:03.704 I I was appalled at. Somebody was, 240 00:15:05.685 --> 00:15:09.065 not encouraged. Let's just put it like that. Was not encouraged 241 00:15:09.970 --> 00:15:12.790 in an environment which is supposed to be extremely encouraging. 242 00:15:14.050 --> 00:15:17.190 And, I I privately 243 00:15:17.975 --> 00:15:21.575 messaged the person that had been affected and, and 244 00:15:21.575 --> 00:15:25.015 supported them, overtly on on this, 245 00:15:25.255 --> 00:15:27.515 this it happened to be a Facebook chat. 246 00:15:29.040 --> 00:15:32.020 And I was just appalled they'd been treated in that way. And 247 00:15:32.800 --> 00:15:36.580 this individual is, again, quite resilient, but was quite upset 248 00:15:36.640 --> 00:15:40.165 by the comments that Happen been made, which were unthinking 249 00:15:41.265 --> 00:15:44.865 and, and not appropriate to the environment that they were made 250 00:15:44.865 --> 00:15:48.220 in. So it's it can happen in all sorts of different environments, 251 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:51.899 and, it's worth thinking that there are people that 252 00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:54.699 will react differently to you. And 253 00:15:56.635 --> 00:15:59.855 Listen, I talk about in the workplace type environment when we talk about 254 00:16:00.635 --> 00:16:04.475 this banter and this humor that sometimes we have in the workplace 255 00:16:04.475 --> 00:16:08.140 where one person thinks it's kind of jovial and 256 00:16:08.140 --> 00:16:11.760 funny whereas actually the impact of that on others is 257 00:16:11.980 --> 00:16:15.764 demeaning, it reinforces stereotypes, or in 258 00:16:15.764 --> 00:16:19.605 some cases, it's just another microaggression that's causing them to feel less worthy 259 00:16:19.605 --> 00:16:23.269 about themselves, isn't it? And Panther is but you 260 00:16:23.269 --> 00:16:26.670 always get the pushback but it's only a bit of fun, it's only we're trying 261 00:16:26.670 --> 00:16:30.250 to make the workplace too sanitised and too SEE is 262 00:16:31.105 --> 00:16:34.625 people push back, don't they, on this banter? So how do you address that? 263 00:16:34.625 --> 00:16:38.465 Yeah. I I think a lot of the time, 264 00:16:38.465 --> 00:16:41.020 people don't intend to to hurt or insult. 265 00:16:42.520 --> 00:16:46.120 They think they're being funny. They think they're being sociable. That's 266 00:16:46.120 --> 00:16:49.725 that's being positive about it. And you can talk to those people. And and if 267 00:16:49.725 --> 00:16:53.185 they find out that they are inadvertently causing distress 268 00:16:53.325 --> 00:16:56.910 or upsetting somebody, then they'll be mortified and and probably 269 00:16:56.910 --> 00:17:00.670 apologize and and stop doing it. And maybe be over careful. 270 00:17:00.670 --> 00:17:04.510 That might be the unintended consequence, next 271 00:17:04.510 --> 00:17:08.234 time. But there are those people that will be doing it on 272 00:17:08.234 --> 00:17:11.915 purpose, and that's why we have the Equality Act. And that's why 273 00:17:11.915 --> 00:17:12.655 we have 274 00:17:15.679 --> 00:17:17.140 mechanisms in place for 275 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:22.260 protected elements within the Equality Act to make sure that people, 276 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:26.785 do get some kind of, redress if 277 00:17:26.785 --> 00:17:30.145 they need to. But I I 278 00:17:30.145 --> 00:17:33.800 think there there are extreme examples. I remember going to a seminar years 279 00:17:33.800 --> 00:17:37.640 ago, and it was all about employment law. And, they were 280 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:41.434 talking about employee handbooks, and it's a good idea to have all your discrimination 281 00:17:41.434 --> 00:17:44.955 policies and all the rest of it in an employee handbook, of course. And an 282 00:17:44.955 --> 00:17:48.475 example is given about, a business 283 00:17:48.475 --> 00:17:51.929 owner who hated swearing for things. 284 00:17:52.470 --> 00:17:55.769 He was very religious person and and didn't like any swearing whatsoever. 285 00:17:56.470 --> 00:18:00.125 And, he'd been taken to industrial tribunal for sacking 286 00:18:00.125 --> 00:18:03.965 somebody who'd sworn at work. So his adviser 287 00:18:03.965 --> 00:18:07.585 told him, right. Okay. You need to put every single word that you find offensive 288 00:18:08.730 --> 00:18:12.409 in your employee handbook and say if you say these words on-site, you 289 00:18:12.409 --> 00:18:16.250 will be dismissed. That's what SEE did. So 290 00:18:16.250 --> 00:18:18.735 that's taking it to an extreme. 291 00:18:20.554 --> 00:18:23.054 I think that, you know, people do, 292 00:18:25.674 --> 00:18:29.350 try and have banter, But it's it's a fine line 293 00:18:29.350 --> 00:18:33.190 between upsetting somebody. And if you 294 00:18:33.190 --> 00:18:36.875 are on the receiving end of it and you are upset, you need to 295 00:18:36.875 --> 00:18:40.215 tell somebody about Bites, and don't keep it to yourself. Otherwise, it's either Joanne 296 00:18:40.395 --> 00:18:43.915 continue because they don't intend to and you've not said anything, or it's gonna 297 00:18:43.915 --> 00:18:47.370 continue because they find that, yeah, you're hurt, and I'm gonna 298 00:18:47.370 --> 00:18:51.070 make make sure you keep on being hurt, and I'm gonna enjoy it. 299 00:18:51.850 --> 00:18:55.565 But once you've actually stood up and said, I don't find 300 00:18:55.565 --> 00:18:59.325 what you said amusing, when 301 00:18:59.325 --> 00:19:03.010 you say that sort of thing, I feel uncomfortable. And what I'm 302 00:19:03.010 --> 00:19:05.909 gonna ask you to do is to 303 00:19:06.610 --> 00:19:10.049 not speak to me like that because those particular words are very 304 00:19:10.049 --> 00:19:13.615 derogatory. So please, next time, don't use those 305 00:19:13.615 --> 00:19:17.455 words or something along those lines. But that's easier 306 00:19:17.455 --> 00:19:20.515 said than done. First of all, you got the the personal 307 00:19:21.429 --> 00:19:25.269 potential pain or or emotional distress from those words 308 00:19:25.269 --> 00:19:28.765 or what's happened or the environment they happened in. Bites, 309 00:19:28.765 --> 00:19:32.605 secondly, you've gotta learn how to do it thinking, using 310 00:19:32.605 --> 00:19:36.365 all your great emotional intelligence and expertise when you're 311 00:19:36.365 --> 00:19:39.960 really upset and your amygdala's doing overtime, which is the 312 00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:43.720 emotional center of the brain, and you can't get the words out because your cognitive 313 00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:47.395 function isn't working very well. So that's what I help people with. I help 314 00:19:47.395 --> 00:19:51.075 them calm down so they can think these things through, have an approach 315 00:19:51.075 --> 00:19:54.880 that's gonna work that is neutral hopefully 316 00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:58.580 rather than aggressive, assertive 317 00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:01.780 certainly, but just pointing out open honest communication. 318 00:20:03.345 --> 00:20:06.945 When you said this, I felt like that. So what I'm gonna ask you to 319 00:20:06.945 --> 00:20:10.705 do, please, is do this. And, you know, just have a just 320 00:20:10.705 --> 00:20:14.250 a a structure to to responding that 321 00:20:14.630 --> 00:20:18.470 is is gonna work. And if they say, well, you can f off, you know, 322 00:20:18.470 --> 00:20:21.495 then you know where you need to go. You might need to complain, find out 323 00:20:21.495 --> 00:20:25.335 what the internal workings are of an employer. A good employer 324 00:20:25.335 --> 00:20:28.775 will will have that very clear in whether it's a handbook or any any other 325 00:20:28.775 --> 00:20:32.059 guidance. And they will have access 326 00:20:32.840 --> 00:20:35.659 to either talk to a manager or to somebody in personnel, 327 00:20:36.760 --> 00:20:40.415 HR, whatever whatever it's called, and they 328 00:20:40.415 --> 00:20:44.195 can get some redress hopefully before they have to go to a tribunal 329 00:20:44.335 --> 00:20:46.515 of some kind or take legal action. 330 00:20:48.390 --> 00:20:51.990 Since what you're saying about swearing then, I was on a 331 00:20:52.070 --> 00:20:55.510 taking part in a webinar or was more of an 332 00:20:55.510 --> 00:20:58.904 interactive online meeting. And one of 333 00:20:59.524 --> 00:21:02.885 the people who was attending at the meeting, they had a 334 00:21:02.885 --> 00:21:06.410 very kind of aggressive posture, they were really 335 00:21:06.410 --> 00:21:10.250 leaning into the camera. They were almost like almost like 336 00:21:10.250 --> 00:21:13.205 in in the in the frame. Eating the microphone almost. 337 00:21:14.085 --> 00:21:17.845 Well, almost eating the screen rather than the microphone, it was kinda they were really, 338 00:21:17.845 --> 00:21:21.544 really into this frame. And they were using swear words like punctuation. 339 00:21:23.120 --> 00:21:26.080 I I found their whole presence in this, 340 00:21:27.040 --> 00:21:30.745 this event completely distracting. I found their 341 00:21:31.225 --> 00:21:34.765 their stance, their language Joanne the way they were talking almost like a bullying 342 00:21:35.385 --> 00:21:39.085 type stance, I'm Bites almost like posturing and aggressiveness 343 00:21:39.860 --> 00:21:43.300 and at the end, there's a kind of a, like, a a a an opportunity 344 00:21:43.300 --> 00:21:46.660 for everybody attending sort of give a bit of group feedback and say what they 345 00:21:46.660 --> 00:21:50.505 thought. And I and I I just I just looked 346 00:21:50.505 --> 00:21:54.105 dead in the camera and said I found this this most of this meeting 347 00:21:54.105 --> 00:21:57.929 completely offensive. The language by used by one of the people was, 348 00:21:57.929 --> 00:22:01.690 you know, using swear words as punctuation, their stance, and their their their 349 00:22:01.690 --> 00:22:05.275 aggression is not the kind of event I want to be part of 350 00:22:05.275 --> 00:22:08.715 and I made it quite clear and kind 351 00:22:08.715 --> 00:22:11.995 of everybody in the room got I could see everyone else's eyes looking at me 352 00:22:11.995 --> 00:22:15.660 and so I just kept my a smile Belonging directly at the 353 00:22:15.660 --> 00:22:19.180 camera, I just kept my stance and just I just part myself with a very 354 00:22:19.180 --> 00:22:21.200 relaxed with a relaxed face 355 00:22:24.154 --> 00:22:27.914 as if to stand up to that bullying behavior, I wasn't gonna walk away from 356 00:22:27.914 --> 00:22:31.630 it and a few people after me said well I'm 357 00:22:31.630 --> 00:22:35.250 glad someone said something because I found that again 358 00:22:35.310 --> 00:22:38.190 that they were finding that being being in their environment uncomfortable with this person 359 00:22:38.320 --> 00:22:42.115 Bites then but the the 360 00:22:42.115 --> 00:22:45.394 the I was gonna come on to it, you know, what you were saying was 361 00:22:45.394 --> 00:22:48.294 it's all very well standing up in that instance 362 00:22:49.110 --> 00:22:52.790 but then you've gotta think about whether, a, you're gonna get backed by 363 00:22:52.790 --> 00:22:56.550 somebody and supported in that claim, whether there's any gonna be any 364 00:22:56.550 --> 00:22:59.904 follow-up victimization, and often people walk away. They 365 00:23:00.724 --> 00:23:04.445 they often people who are targets or or of of 366 00:23:04.445 --> 00:23:08.169 bullying or intimidation are the people that don't know how to stand 367 00:23:08.169 --> 00:23:12.010 up for these opportunities. I appreciate it's exactly where you come in Bites there's so 368 00:23:12.010 --> 00:23:15.825 much fear of recrimination, fear of of the bullying getting worse, isn't it? And that 369 00:23:15.825 --> 00:23:19.505 this is this is I guess what you do, so what can people do in 370 00:23:19.505 --> 00:23:23.340 that situation? Standing up sometimes running away is 371 00:23:23.340 --> 00:23:26.800 often the easiest answer, isn't it? Yeah. That I mean, I 372 00:23:27.180 --> 00:23:30.845 I help people across a range of sort of conflict situations, 373 00:23:30.845 --> 00:23:34.525 and, you you 374 00:23:34.525 --> 00:23:38.170 can choose whether you deal with something there and then. 375 00:23:38.550 --> 00:23:41.670 And sometimes it's not appropriate to deal with it there and then because you're you're 376 00:23:41.670 --> 00:23:45.290 on the back foot. You haven't got all the information you need need perhaps. 377 00:23:49.715 --> 00:23:53.475 You're somehow triggered and not thinking straight. You might 378 00:23:53.475 --> 00:23:57.270 be very emotional, and that isn't the best time to give her 379 00:23:57.270 --> 00:24:01.110 your best. So picking and choosing 380 00:24:01.110 --> 00:24:04.424 your time is really important and place as well because 381 00:24:05.205 --> 00:24:09.044 I've I've had instances where things have 382 00:24:09.044 --> 00:24:12.880 been said and done, and you need to nip that 383 00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:16.640 in the bud. But you don't nip it in the bud in front of 384 00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:19.965 other people because they may be your allies or otherwise 385 00:24:20.365 --> 00:24:24.105 Belonging on their loyalties or how they interpret or perceive the situation. They're not 386 00:24:24.105 --> 00:24:27.760 you. They haven't SEE it the same way as you have and don't have 387 00:24:27.760 --> 00:24:31.520 your background experience. That might mean that something is 388 00:24:31.520 --> 00:24:34.660 particularly cutting or hurtful 389 00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:37.764 or embarrassing or whatever it might be. 390 00:24:38.705 --> 00:24:42.465 So maybe having a chat by the the 391 00:24:42.465 --> 00:24:45.445 water cooler, the the coffee machine, by the kettle, 392 00:24:46.660 --> 00:24:50.500 the 2 of you is the absolutely the best thing to 393 00:24:50.500 --> 00:24:54.325 do. But maybe once you've calmed down or walked out 394 00:24:54.325 --> 00:24:57.545 into the art of years ago when I went to a particular employer, 395 00:24:58.885 --> 00:25:02.730 my boss's boss was really, really winding me up. I 396 00:25:02.730 --> 00:25:06.110 actually got up and walked out of the office, 397 00:25:06.570 --> 00:25:09.130 not in a rage or anything. I just got up. They didn't know I was 398 00:25:09.130 --> 00:25:12.585 doing this at all. I just got up, walked out, and walked around the yard 399 00:25:12.585 --> 00:25:15.485 outside, which had, like, lots of bits of metal lying in the yard. 400 00:25:16.424 --> 00:25:20.220 And Bites wintertime, and I was frozen, and it just calmed me down 401 00:25:20.220 --> 00:25:23.500