Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host
Joanne Lockwood: for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be
Joanne Lockwood: interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the
Joanne Lockwood: subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a
Joanne Lockwood: better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the
Joanne Lockwood: future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: That's s double e, change happen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: You'll be able to catch up with all of the previous shows on Itunes,
Joanne Lockwood: Spotify, and the usual places. So like any headphones,
Joanne Lockwood: grab a decaf and let's get going.
Joanne Lockwood: Today is episode 24 with the title
Joanne Lockwood: 'There is Room for Everyone Within the Soup of Life'.
Joanne Lockwood: And I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Derek
Joanne Lockwood: Cheshire. Now Derek describes himself as someone who
Joanne Lockwood: could see how to get off the tracks before the train comes.
Joanne Lockwood: And when I asked Derek to describe his superpower, he said that he
Joanne Lockwood: could find the nearest coffee shop without Google or
Joanne Lockwood: Satnav. And we'll find out about that in a minute, I'm sure.
Joanne Lockwood: So hello, Derek. Welcome to the show. Well, hi,
Derek Cheshire: Jo. Thanks for having me. It's nice to be here on a
Derek Cheshire: on a horrible cold day up here in Yorkshire and to talk
Derek Cheshire: about some things that'll warm up the cockles of people's hearts.
Joanne Lockwood: Oh, that sounds very interesting, and I'm dying to find out about your coffee shop
Joanne Lockwood: navigation techniques. Jo, Derek,
Joanne Lockwood: why do you say that there is room for everyone within the
Joanne Lockwood: soup of life? What does that mean to you? Well,
Derek Cheshire: the the field that I inhabit is is basically creativity
Derek Cheshire: and innovation. And in the widest
Derek Cheshire: possible sense, that,
Derek Cheshire: diversity in the widest possible sense is what we need because we don't
Derek Cheshire: want the same point of view, the same things bringing up, the
Derek Cheshire: same interactions, the same
Derek Cheshire: tensions and frictions, if if you like. I'm not saying that
Derek Cheshire: we we want tension filled
Derek Cheshire: diversity. But when you bring things together like you do in,
Derek Cheshire: in in humor, for instance, you know, the straight man, the funny
Derek Cheshire: man, you have the logical, the not so
Derek Cheshire: logical. When you get all of these things together and
Derek Cheshire: you you you have a little bit of what I call creative tension,
Derek Cheshire: and that's where the ideas and the things for me come about. So
Derek Cheshire: I I I come at it purely
Derek Cheshire: initially, purely from a creativity and an innovation point of
Derek Cheshire: view. But, of course, that brings with it all sorts of other
Derek Cheshire: issues surrounding, diversity and inclusion because
Derek Cheshire: you can't just use people's brains. You have to
Derek Cheshire: use people or use in big quotes,
Derek Cheshire: I think. Utilize, I think, is probably a better
Joanne Lockwood: word. Utilize. Make make make use of people. Take contributions from people.
Derek Cheshire: Yes. And there there you go. I've just actually highlighted
Derek Cheshire: one of the issues, is language.
Derek Cheshire: It's it's a huge thing generally, but it's it's also a big
Derek Cheshire: thing within the, creativity and innovation sphere
Derek Cheshire: because we bring to traditionally bring together people
Derek Cheshire: from a number of functions within companies.
Derek Cheshire: And we've said, oh, well, let's have people from marketing. Let's have people from sales.
Derek Cheshire: Let's have people from engineering. Yeah. Let's create a common
Derek Cheshire: language. But the common that's where the common language actually
Derek Cheshire: stops. When you start including many
Derek Cheshire: different people, you have actually got to expand your vocabulary.
Derek Cheshire: So it's yeah. We just highlighted one one of the issues.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. You hear use. I might I think abuse. Use and abuse.
Joanne Lockwood: Well, actually, you didn't mean that. You meant utilize, which is what? Utilize or
Derek Cheshire: make use utilize or make make use of. Yeah. And that and
Derek Cheshire: that that is the thing. People people will inadvertently,
Derek Cheshire: make use of the wrong phrases, the wrong the wrong language.
Derek Cheshire: And one of one of the issues that I I I see is very,
Derek Cheshire: very easy to, in some cases, quite rightly to take
Derek Cheshire: take offense or or or exception to the use of
Derek Cheshire: something. But one of the problem one of one of the
Derek Cheshire: one of the problems I I I tend to have, is that
Derek Cheshire: the more we legislate, the more we have rules to
Derek Cheshire: tell, people what they should do or
Derek Cheshire: think, the more it encourages some
Derek Cheshire: people to find loopholes in in those rules.
Derek Cheshire: I I just I I think I said, in in the in my,
Derek Cheshire: my my notes beef before before I applied to come on your your show
Derek Cheshire: was that my my greatest, diversity and in
Derek Cheshire: inclusion wish is that there is no need for it at all
Derek Cheshire: simply because common sense prevails. And that's
Derek Cheshire: that's when in a way, that's that's what what I'd like to see. We don't
Derek Cheshire: have to think about these things because common sense and
Derek Cheshire: decency rules rather than rules rules.
Joanne Lockwood: I yeah. I agree. I mean, I'm
Joanne Lockwood: I often speak about the fact that HR is kind of
Joanne Lockwood: like the bastion of rule creating. And every time something goes
Joanne Lockwood: wrong, they create a rule to stop happening again. So we end
Joanne Lockwood: up applying the rule for the one to the many. And
Joanne Lockwood: before we know it, we have so many rules tying us in knots that
Joanne Lockwood: we stop people being able to think for themselves and and think
Joanne Lockwood: rationally and see themselves out of situations. I think what you're saying there is often
Joanne Lockwood: we have these rules, we over police or we under
Joanne Lockwood: police or as you said people find their way around
Joanne Lockwood: rules or actually there's a loophole if I stand on one leg and say
Joanne Lockwood: something it doesn't count or if I
Joanne Lockwood: we're doing the same with COVID aren't we we're creating so many rules that
Joanne Lockwood: the rules don't join up, there's so many loopholes in these rules that
Joanne Lockwood: people really don't know where they Joanne, so you're right that we do often create
Joanne Lockwood: too many rules rather than teaching people how to be
Joanne Lockwood: good citizens or good communicators. That's the that's the thing we should be doing, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? Yeah. It's some something something very similar to what we what we do with
Derek Cheshire: with with, kids at school. There's a lot of talk of people
Derek Cheshire: saying, what should we be teaching kids at school?
Derek Cheshire: No. We shouldn't be teaching them anything apart from how to
Derek Cheshire: learn. Once they know how to learn, then they can learn
Derek Cheshire: absolutely anything if they want to. So it's it's a
Derek Cheshire: little it's a little bit like that. If if people if you you show people
Derek Cheshire: the way so they learn how to behave or how to deal with
Derek Cheshire: other people that aren't, you know, aren't maybe quite like they are,
Derek Cheshire: then, and and, similarly, I think the people on both
Derek Cheshire: sides of the fence do do need to be
Derek Cheshire: do need to be mindful of this because I I was just thinking about this
Derek Cheshire: this morning. I I have family up in up in the north of Scotland. And
Derek Cheshire: I know until fairly recently, you could actually say that
Derek Cheshire: many of them had never seen anybody that wasn't white.
Derek Cheshire: They just hadn't. So some they could comment on this in
Derek Cheshire: a in a say if they've came to visit me, they could comment on this
Derek Cheshire: in a public place and people go, oh, dear. That's terrible.
Derek Cheshire: But they don't know. They they have they have they haven't learned how to
Derek Cheshire: learn about this particular thing. So you you you sort of have
Derek Cheshire: to have to forgive them in that instance. So it's
Derek Cheshire: it's all very it is very messy. As I
Derek Cheshire: said, common sense and decency and
Derek Cheshire: even even being inquisitive. I mean, we're inquisitive
Derek Cheshire: in the world of work. And when I talk about creativity and innovation, we're very
Derek Cheshire: inquisitive. We're curious about things.
Derek Cheshire: We need to be more inquisitive and curious about
Derek Cheshire: other people, without obviously
Derek Cheshire: being heavy handed or whatever the rest of it Jo that people do
Derek Cheshire: actually understand what it's like to be, you know, a different
Derek Cheshire: color, different religion, different race, different different
Derek Cheshire: numbers of lambs and legs, whatever it happens to be.
Joanne Lockwood: That's so true. I mean, it sounds like you've been sitting on one of my
Joanne Lockwood: sessions or I've been sitting on one of your sessions because I say it's that
Joanne Lockwood: same thing. It's not about learning how to speak
Joanne Lockwood: to someone with a disability, someone who is gay, someone who is trans, someone who
Joanne Lockwood: is white or black. It's about understanding how to speak to people And that I
Joanne Lockwood: think that's what you said was learning how to learn, but learning how to speak.
Joanne Lockwood: It's it's this cultural and emotional intelligence. So that if
Joanne Lockwood: I've not met someone who is black or disabled before, it doesn't matter
Joanne Lockwood: because I've got people skills. I've got listening skills. I've got
Joanne Lockwood: curiosity skills. Yeah. And and and on the flip
Derek Cheshire: side of that, those people, if you
Derek Cheshire: if you're trying to be curious and inquisitive, is
Derek Cheshire: there there is sometimes when people people get asked too much,
Derek Cheshire: they start feeling, well, you're discriminating. You're picking you're
Derek Cheshire: picking on me. No. I'm just trying to find out more. I'd I'd
Derek Cheshire: I'd love to know about more, honestly.
Derek Cheshire: And and it is quite difficult. When when we go abroad to other countries on
Derek Cheshire: a holiday, for instance, we have no trouble or some of us
Derek Cheshire: have no trouble, should I say, immersing ourselves in the culture, finding
Derek Cheshire: out about other people, accepting the way they behave. But
Derek Cheshire: those same people could be doing what they do in their own
Derek Cheshire: country here, and people take exception to it,
Derek Cheshire: or they just don't bother finding out.
Derek Cheshire: So I don't know whether it's a I don't think it's just a British
Derek Cheshire: thing, but because we're in the UK, we do actually come
Derek Cheshire: across this a lot more. But, again,
Derek Cheshire: that's stereotypes, isn't it? So you're talking about the
Joanne Lockwood: British holiday that goes to the English pub and eats fish and chips and roast
Joanne Lockwood: beef on Saturday and then complains that the gravy isn't as good as it is
Joanne Lockwood: back home? A a little bit. Unfortunately, I've
Derek Cheshire: seen far I mean, I've seen people on holiday do absolutely nothing.
Derek Cheshire: But, once, I remember or years ago when
Derek Cheshire: I was a student, we went we
Derek Cheshire: we were into railing, and I was we caught the
Derek Cheshire: the ferry across the Joanne, and we were at
Derek Cheshire: Ostend Railway Station waiting for the first train of the day, just sitting there
Derek Cheshire: waiting for our train. We already had our tickets. And there were some
Derek Cheshire: English guys, typically loud.
Derek Cheshire: They they were from the south, but they could have been from anywhere. They just
Derek Cheshire: hopped across the channel, and they they wanted to
Derek Cheshire: make a phone call. So they they were abusing the poor guy in the
Derek Cheshire: ticket office. Eventually, they got a phone card they they purchased the
Derek Cheshire: phone card. They couldn't speak French. They couldn't
Derek Cheshire: speak Dutch or or or Flemish. So eventually, they got their
Derek Cheshire: phone card. They paid for it. They tried to stick it in this
Derek Cheshire: phone. It wouldn't work. Then after a few minutes
Derek Cheshire: of trying, they went back, said, we want our money back and just gave this
Derek Cheshire: guy abuse. And he didn't really speak much English.
Derek Cheshire: They spoke no foreign language at all, and they just got
Derek Cheshire: louder and louder and louder. And this is a little
Derek Cheshire: while ago, but in some cases, that hasn't actually improved that
Derek Cheshire: much. And that's all although it is a stereotype,
Derek Cheshire: it highlights nicely that some people don't even appreciate
Derek Cheshire: the person they're speaking to.
Derek Cheshire: So so, yes, the Briton holiday still does exist, but it's it can be
Derek Cheshire: anything. But you're right. There
Joanne Lockwood: are some people who don't want to educate
Joanne Lockwood: themselves or don't know how to educate themselves to find out about other
Joanne Lockwood: people and to often speak through their own privilege or their own
Joanne Lockwood: sense of entitlement without truly understanding the that it's been somebody else,
Joanne Lockwood: and that that is that is often one of the barriers to inclusion, isn't it?
Derek Cheshire: It it it it is. But I I I find sometimes when
Derek Cheshire: you when you I mean, I've the radio show that I I used to be
Derek Cheshire: on is it was an Asian station. So
Derek Cheshire: the potential pitfalls there are unbelievable. The the
Derek Cheshire: the the faux pas you could make. But it was
Derek Cheshire: it was really, really interesting because I I like to put humor into
Derek Cheshire: into everything. And I had a conversation in the office.
Derek Cheshire: I said, you don't really hear about many
Derek Cheshire: many sort of Muslim comedians or,
Derek Cheshire: or I don't know what the Muslim style of humor is. And these guys
Derek Cheshire: just fell around laughing, and they they they gave me a whole load
Derek Cheshire: of stuff that would make some of our traditional, should we
Derek Cheshire: say, English comedians blush. This this stuff
Derek Cheshire: was was hardcore, and I would have never found that
Derek Cheshire: out without actually having a conversation with them about it.
Derek Cheshire: But on the other hand, you you when it's, for instance, Ramadan,
Derek Cheshire: you have to be very, very careful about what what you say and
Derek Cheshire: do. But it it it's it's it's also wanting
Derek Cheshire: to ask the questions. I mean, if somebody go if somebody's gay
Derek Cheshire: or trans or whatever, most people just
Derek Cheshire: they feel I don't know whether they feel stupid or what to
Derek Cheshire: ask the questions. What do you ask without offending
Derek Cheshire: someone? And and that's where that's where most
Derek Cheshire: people stop. It's easier to pretend not to know than to ask them
Derek Cheshire: ask the question. Yeah. Fear of getting it wrong is a is a
Joanne Lockwood: huge barrier for many people. And
Joanne Lockwood: violent get it wrong. People disengage. They walk away. They
Joanne Lockwood: exclude. And that exacerbates the problem
Joanne Lockwood: because the body language, that nervousness becomes apparent. And I
Joanne Lockwood: can I can tell if someone's ignoring me or walking away from me, I think,
Joanne Lockwood: what's up with me? And it often it's it's down to the individual not having
Joanne Lockwood: those kind of interpersonal skills, the EQ that we talked about.
Derek Cheshire: Yeah. I mean, when when people say people come out with these phrases,
Derek Cheshire: I hate. I won't mention I won't mention any particular groups of
Derek Cheshire: people at all, but they they they you they use the term I hate, and
Derek Cheshire: then it it could be any any group of people. They don't.
Derek Cheshire: They just they well, okay. 1 or 2 people They don't
Derek Cheshire: understand. Yeah. They don't they don't they don't understand. They they haven't got
Derek Cheshire: the tools to cope. They they just that that that's they're
Derek Cheshire: scared.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, I've I've worked all over the world in my in my thirties. I
Joanne Lockwood: worked for an international private bank, and I I had the the good fortune of
Joanne Lockwood: being able to fly club class to some great
Joanne Lockwood: destinations and spend a lot of time in those cultures both
Joanne Lockwood: in the office and also being taken out in the evenings, just
Joanne Lockwood: to feel the culture. But also I was also a member of a club
Joanne Lockwood: which had worldwide presence and I spent a lot of time traveling over Europe,
Joanne Lockwood: staying in people's homes, home hosted and I've travelled
Joanne Lockwood: throughout the UK living in people's homes and and meeting their families. So I think
Joanne Lockwood: once you expose yourself to that level of difference, that level of
Joanne Lockwood: randomness from different cultures, you get the idea that people are just people,
Joanne Lockwood: they they wanna get up in the morning, have a great day and the same
Joanne Lockwood: as you do, they're not they're not being any more
Joanne Lockwood: than they are in their own culture and I I think we all forget that
Joanne Lockwood: we we create these stereotypes these people who are from different countries, the
Joanne Lockwood: media, the press, all this kind of the government, we kind
Joanne Lockwood: of demonise yeah, anyone from across the Joanne. We still
Joanne Lockwood: hold 2nd World War biases
Joanne Lockwood: and tropes around the French, the Germans, the Italians,
Joanne Lockwood: anyone who wasn't our ally. We we have all these jokes
Joanne Lockwood: and those are almost invading our thinking these
Joanne Lockwood: days. We we we get very clouded by them, don't we? Well, yes. We
Derek Cheshire: are. I mean, the thing about some some of the humor and the stereotypes from
Derek Cheshire: the so called World War, they're they're quite easy to pick up on.
Derek Cheshire: And I think some of them are still are still valid, but
Derek Cheshire: you need to know when when you can use them and when and
Derek Cheshire: when not to. It's very similar
Derek Cheshire: to I mean, I I Joanne remember being in Cardiff
Derek Cheshire: and being being very careful of insulting,
Derek Cheshire: insulting black people, for for various
Derek Cheshire: reasons. And then standing looking
Derek Cheshire: completely in awe at at 2 people
Derek Cheshire: having well, Jo. More than 2 people having a screaming
Derek Cheshire: match in the middle of Cardiff. All of them all of them Asian,
Derek Cheshire: all calling themselves things that we would not be allowed to repeat
Derek Cheshire: in public. You think, well, what do
Derek Cheshire: I do here? What what what what's acceptable and what isn't? And it
Derek Cheshire: sort of it it sort of comes around to that,
Derek Cheshire: at what point can you, I would say, laugh at?
Derek Cheshire: Yeah. Maybe laugh at. At what point can you laugh at comment
Derek Cheshire: on other people or yourself without it causing offense
Derek Cheshire: to anybody? At what point can you do that? I mean, another
Derek Cheshire: example was when we when when we we used to live down in the West
Derek Cheshire: Country, and Bristol City Council were very, at the time, I guess, people called
Derek Cheshire: it political correct politically correct. And I can remember
Derek Cheshire: 2 ladies 2 colored ladies. 1 one was one
Derek Cheshire: was Afro Caribbean. I think the other one might have
Derek Cheshire: been of African descent. But they had a
Derek Cheshire: slanging match in the council chamber. One called the other
Derek Cheshire: something very, you know, not very nice at
Derek Cheshire: all. And both of them got taken to court. You know, they
Derek Cheshire: were both colored. They were both insulting each other.
Derek Cheshire: And I've and that wouldn't have happened if both necessarily had been wiped.
Derek Cheshire: And you could excuse you could excuse an onlooker for being
Derek Cheshire: confused. Let me just pick you up in a bit of language there.
Joanne Lockwood: You used a you used a phrase there that was probably you should avoid.
Joanne Lockwood: People are black, they're brown, or people of color. You should not
Joanne Lockwood: use the old language in the way you did. So just just for
Joanne Lockwood: anyone listening, it's yeah. Black is the
Joanne Lockwood: correct term when we're talking about people who are black or or
Joanne Lockwood: brown or people of color. Jo, yeah, just we we just need to
Joanne Lockwood: be careful that we we do understand that we have to update our language if
Joanne Lockwood: you like because it it does evolve and change over time. Just like It does.
Derek Cheshire: It does. It does. And, obviously, obviously, my needs are a little
Derek Cheshire: updating. Yeah. But but that's why we're here to educate as well. Indeed.
Derek Cheshire: But that but but, again, that that that that is the problem with something that's
Derek Cheshire: evolving all the time. If, I mean, if, I
Derek Cheshire: don't know, technology evolves all the time, people people know how
Derek Cheshire: to update their technology or get to grips with it
Derek Cheshire: or, fashion or anything like that.
Derek Cheshire: But there are some things that don't tend to get
Derek Cheshire: updated unless you're exposed to them
Derek Cheshire: or it's foisted upon you. And I guess in a way, what you
Derek Cheshire: want to stop is the trying to impose it upon people because
Derek Cheshire: it's it it doesn't stick very well.
Joanne Lockwood: No. No. I don't think it's actually about imposing. It's trying to
Joanne Lockwood: enlighten people to say this this turn of phrase,
Joanne Lockwood: this language, this word, or this thing
Joanne Lockwood: is problematic for some people. Some people are not happy with that
Joanne Lockwood: language and you go okay, I get that some
Joanne Lockwood: people are upset by that so it costs me nothing to you to to
Joanne Lockwood: recognize that and and amend my language. So what we often find
Joanne Lockwood: is people stick for their language Jo well, I've been I've been calling people
Joanne Lockwood: this for for 30, 40, 50 years ever since I can remember and you're telling
Joanne Lockwood: me I have to change, well, that's just so difficult and that often that reflects
Joanne Lockwood: privilege, it always like it reflects that people don't have
Joanne Lockwood: that sort of cultural sensitivity to go 'actually it cost me
Joanne Lockwood: nothing, fine now you've told me I'll remember that
Joanne Lockwood: Joanne that's kind of the approach that people are saying not to create
Joanne Lockwood: rules but just to almost say this is how I feel when you say
Joanne Lockwood: that and this is how I'd like you to you to to be concerned and
Joanne Lockwood: that that's simply how we just adapt language and and and persuade
Joanne Lockwood: people rather than tell them. Just point out where
Joanne Lockwood: language could improve or could be used differently. Indeed. Look. There
Derek Cheshire: there there's one there's there's a there's few areas, though, that are a bit
Derek Cheshire: awkward where you've got potentially different
Derek Cheshire: different sets of language, if you like, for if you're whether
Derek Cheshire: you're dealing with, groups of people. I
Derek Cheshire: mean, women tends to be an example. There are a lot of lot of
Derek Cheshire: people lots of women who will take exception of being
Derek Cheshire: called I don't know.
Joanne Lockwood: Love. Funny. Love. Chef. Yeah.
Derek Cheshire: But, actually, one of the things I had to get used to is everyone in
Derek Cheshire: Yorkshire, whether male or female, gets called love. It's just the way
Derek Cheshire: it is. But, yeah, I've seen a I've seen a lot
Derek Cheshire: of discussion about being called, say, chaps.
Derek Cheshire: Some people don't I don't want don't wanna be that. And then you'll get 1
Derek Cheshire: one or 2 or maybe more saying, well, actually, I don't mind
Derek Cheshire: that. It it it it it can
Derek Cheshire: it can be difficult. You have to be you do have to be careful.
Derek Cheshire: And you you could actually go so far one way that
Derek Cheshire: language gets completely sanitized. So I guess what I guess what
Derek Cheshire: we need to do is have some some colorful but not offensive language,
Derek Cheshire: which is an interesting challenge for other I mean,
Derek Cheshire: that's that's that's that's that's the trouble. When people talk about dumbing down, they're not
Derek Cheshire: so much dumbing down. It's it's just making everything completely bland.
Joanne Lockwood: But it doesn't have to be. I mean, I I'm guarded
Joanne Lockwood: about the language I use and I hang out with a lot of people who
Joanne Lockwood: are also guarded about the language Joanne I don't think we dumb down anything. I
Joanne Lockwood: think we still have fun, we laugh, we still joke about things. We
Joanne Lockwood: just don't tend to joke about things that have a
Joanne Lockwood: person's misfortune at the end of it. We talk about other other
Derek Cheshire: I other ironic scenarios. Yeah. In in
Derek Cheshire: that that's fair enough. But a lot of those people, I won't say all of
Derek Cheshire: them because I don't know who you hang out with, but a lot a lot
Derek Cheshire: of people I'm
Derek Cheshire: sure. What was I I've lost my train of thought train of thought there. Yeah.
Derek Cheshire: If if if you hang around or you've got a
Derek Cheshire: a group that that you do hang around with, a close group of friends, wider
Derek Cheshire: group of friends, or even just a, I don't know, networking club
Derek Cheshire: that you belong to, people you see regularly, it's a lot easier to
Derek Cheshire: do that with that with than with
Derek Cheshire: people you don't see regularly or some people who
Derek Cheshire: will take offense at something if you've
Derek Cheshire: maybe only met them for the first time.
Derek Cheshire: Yes. You maybe should be guarded about the language you use so that
Derek Cheshire: nobody could take offense, But but that that's
Derek Cheshire: that's that's the problem I I think I particularly have had
Derek Cheshire: in the past. I don't think I have it now, hopefully, but that is the
Derek Cheshire: problem that I've had in the past. The first time you come up you
Derek Cheshire: you interact with somebody, you know nothing about them.
Derek Cheshire: So all the only thing you can do is either be
Derek Cheshire: almost nothing or you
Derek Cheshire: we do what most of us do. We we have these, unconscious
Derek Cheshire: biases, these these stereotypes, and
Derek Cheshire: they they kick in because if
Derek Cheshire: you wanted to read all of the cues that somebody's giving off,
Derek Cheshire: or little things they're telling you, body language and all the rest of it, you
Derek Cheshire: could use so much brainpower that you probably can't even have a
Derek Cheshire: conversation. So
Joanne Lockwood: It takes practice. I think I think the the key thing is, you know, we
Joanne Lockwood: started off by saying that learning to
Joanne Lockwood: learn, learning to converse, learning to think this way. So
Joanne Lockwood: I think people can retrain the way they think, they can retrain the
Joanne Lockwood: way they talk, and they can change the way they interact with
Joanne Lockwood: the world. It just takes practice and I look back at
Joanne Lockwood: my life and 5, 10
Joanne Lockwood: years ago, my my language was completely different
Joanne Lockwood: in terms of colour and and sensitivity. So I think I think you can
Joanne Lockwood: you can learn but I don't think we should shy away
Joanne Lockwood: from creating
Joanne Lockwood: learning learning opportunities and as I
Joanne Lockwood: say I network, I go out, I meet people all over the world
Joanne Lockwood: all over the UK, I speak at conferences in the same way you
Joanne Lockwood: do and I don't feel that I'm
Joanne Lockwood: constrained in my humor or my or my
Joanne Lockwood: the way I can talk to people or or interact with people. So, yeah, I
Joanne Lockwood: I think I think you can if if you if you if you learn how
Joanne Lockwood: to talk and learn how to learn. I think I think I think it's very
Joanne Lockwood: possible. Yeah. I I in in entirely. I mean, I'm just
Derek Cheshire: new neuroscience tells us you Joanne. Habit habits are not
Derek Cheshire: hardwired. And and they it's just a
Derek Cheshire: question of how much effort you put in, what what you see the
Derek Cheshire: rewards are as to whether you whether you whether you do it. But
Derek Cheshire: another one of the was it was a phrase that I picked up because
Derek Cheshire: I as you it's probably you know, I I did,
Derek Cheshire: Linda Shaw's neuroscience course. And one of the things that
Derek Cheshire: really stuck out for me was because we were talking about creativity at the
Derek Cheshire: time and facilitation. We were talking about
Derek Cheshire: when we're dealing with groups of people, we need to be their prefrontal
Derek Cheshire: cortex. Being being being creative or
Derek Cheshire: changing the way we think takes an enormous amount amount of
Derek Cheshire: bandwidth. So if if instead of
Derek Cheshire: relying on people's own prefrontal cortexes or cortices,
Derek Cheshire: I'm not sure what the plural is, if there was if there if there's
Derek Cheshire: some if there's some way of facilitating that, that that's
Derek Cheshire: what we do when we act as facilitators and let the people do their
Derek Cheshire: creative stuff. In a way, I think something something
Derek Cheshire: similar is needed. We need a a prefrontal
Derek Cheshire: cortex to to to help to help to
Derek Cheshire: help everybody. And and it's not it's
Derek Cheshire: not controlling because the that part of our
Derek Cheshire: brain doesn't directly control everything. It's it's just
Derek Cheshire: it's just like a musical conductor. It it it conducts the rest of
Derek Cheshire: the brain. So it's not we we there's no sort of synchronous
Derek Cheshire: communications. Jo, I think I think that's I think that's
Derek Cheshire: possibly possibly what we need. I love
Derek Cheshire: talking in medicals. No. I I agree. I I think
Joanne Lockwood: I accept that I have to make it
Joanne Lockwood: easy for people to talk to me about me. So
Joanne Lockwood: I know that I get a better experience in life
Joanne Lockwood: if I help people who are clearly nervous or clearly tongue
Joanne Lockwood: tied or don't know the good language. I also realized that some people
Joanne Lockwood: maybe say something with the best intent, they didn't
Joanne Lockwood: it didn't intend to be offensive. Yes, it could have been offensive, but
Joanne Lockwood: I'll I will help them through that and try and say well actually
Joanne Lockwood: that's not a great question, that is probably not great language,
Joanne Lockwood: consider this instead And then I don't say you must, I
Joanne Lockwood: say well this is have a think about why this is important
Joanne Lockwood: and hopefully people come to the conclusion themselves, okay I get it, right,
Joanne Lockwood: that's yeah it costs you nothing
Joanne Lockwood: to adapt. It comes again it comes
Joanne Lockwood: down to privilege and how you see yourself, If you see yourself as more important
Joanne Lockwood: or or more righteous than somebody, and you Jo,
Joanne Lockwood: what do they matter? But by by showing you a point of change,
Joanne Lockwood: you come over in a more level
Joanne Lockwood: way. You're not trying to create a power balance between between 2 people. So I
Joanne Lockwood: I think we we can all try. We can all we can all put the
Joanne Lockwood: effort and we can all all don't don't feel
Joanne Lockwood: don't feel shame or or feel upset that you get something wrong to say,
Joanne Lockwood: okay, I got it wrong. What can I say next time? What would be a
Joanne Lockwood: better way of doing this? Okay. Thank you for telling me that. I'll learn.
Joanne Lockwood: And then when you meet somebody else, you could apply that and go, well, I
Joanne Lockwood: met Jo last week. She said this and this.
Joanne Lockwood: And what she suggested was I ask you what your pronouns are. So
Joanne Lockwood: my name is Derek and my pronouns are, what are yours?
Joanne Lockwood: And they go oh brilliant Derek, thanks for asking, that's fantastic' and all of a
Joanne Lockwood: sudden the concept has gone well because you're picking up bits of knowledge and then
Joanne Lockwood: applying them yourself and the world's a better place you may go that's a whole
Joanne Lockwood: lot of effort, yeah? But yeah, it is, it is a
Joanne Lockwood: first, but after couple of chats, you know, as you said
Joanne Lockwood: about neuroscience, you rewire rewire the circuits in your brain and before
Joanne Lockwood: long, it it just becomes a way of talking. Yeah. It is
Derek Cheshire: it is bewildering, though, in in different, I I don't
Derek Cheshire: know how many different
Derek Cheshire: cultures you've experienced this or even experimented
Derek Cheshire: maybe. But in some cultures abroad, it's just so
Derek Cheshire: confusing. I mean, one of cultures that I'm most familiar with
Derek Cheshire: is India. Every everybody is sir or madam,
Derek Cheshire: whether you like it or not.
Derek Cheshire: But other things are are very different.
Derek Cheshire: Sometimes the language does not actually match
Derek Cheshire: almost match the actions. Jo peep the
Derek Cheshire: way the way people,
Derek Cheshire: well, they're supposed not to have a caste system, for instance, but they
Derek Cheshire: do. They but they do. The way people will look
Derek Cheshire: after other people whether with no matter
Derek Cheshire: how how different they are, but they still have this
Derek Cheshire: I'm I'm almost coming coming to answering my own question
Derek Cheshire: here because I would say almost imperialist language. I think
Derek Cheshire: that's I think I know where they possibly got
Derek Cheshire: some some of their language and some of their other
Derek Cheshire: systems. Colonial exports. Yeah. Are are colonial
Derek Cheshire: exports. Yeah. May maybe they just haven't got haven't got rid
Derek Cheshire: rid of the the bad bits yet. Well, as we
Joanne Lockwood: could see by a lot of the Commonwealth, they they still
Joanne Lockwood: have a lot of the archaic
Joanne Lockwood: exports of colonialism in terms of their attitudes towards LGBT
Joanne Lockwood: people, say the gender biases they've got etcetera
Joanne Lockwood: etcetera and we exported a lot of that in
Joanne Lockwood: that with with Christianity, with our voice,
Joanne Lockwood: and all we did was we nicked their potatoes and and enslaved them all
Joanne Lockwood: and and ruined their culture somewhere. Although in some cases, I
Derek Cheshire: think that that they're actually in the case in the
Derek Cheshire: case in the case of Indian people, I think they are
Derek Cheshire: I think they've worked their way through a lot of this. They've I had a
Derek Cheshire: I actually had a con I've had several conversations with this with the Indian people
Derek Cheshire: in India about, because a couple of
Derek Cheshire: times when I've returned from there, it's just been about the end of a
Derek Cheshire: just being around the anniversary of separation.
Derek Cheshire: So it's it's been quite Joanne interesting time to talk
Derek Cheshire: about to talk about these things. But, yes,
Derek Cheshire: they've they've realized that there are lots of
Derek Cheshire: things that the imperialists have given to them which are
Derek Cheshire: useful. I mean, okay, the railways are falling falling to pieces now, but we
Derek Cheshire: gave them the railways and the legal system and a whole an
Derek Cheshire: education system and a whole load of other things. And some of
Derek Cheshire: the other stuff, they dismantled or thrown away or or not used. But
Derek Cheshire: then there are countries like, oh, well, Africa is not a
Derek Cheshire: country. It's a continent. But thinking about thinking about all the colonial
Derek Cheshire: powers, the countries there have
Derek Cheshire: dismantled everything. I mean, they used to have great railway routes
Derek Cheshire: and, well, a a number of things, and those have all gone.
Derek Cheshire: And they're in a far worse position than than the Indian
Derek Cheshire: Indian subcontinent is. So I I, yeah, I I I
Derek Cheshire: think they've taken some of the good bits. Maybe they need to get rid of
Derek Cheshire: some more bits, do a bit more weeding and pruning, but they've taken a
Derek Cheshire: system and adapted it. And to be honest, I think in
Derek Cheshire: most cases, the the the usage of maybe madam is
Derek Cheshire: not an insulting thing. They just want to be polite, but they've
Derek Cheshire: got no other they've got no other way way at the moment, anyway, they've got
Derek Cheshire: no other ways of of of actually
Derek Cheshire: demonstrating it. Yeah. And I I
Joanne Lockwood: also think as a traveler, I can't go to somewhere else
Joanne Lockwood: and enforce my culture. No. No. No. Yeah. I I I have to go there
Joanne Lockwood: and learn their culture first and then help them find out
Joanne Lockwood: more about me while I'm there. I can't go, hang on a minute. You insult
Joanne Lockwood: me because I'm I'm a guest in your country. I have to understand your
Joanne Lockwood: culture first until I can tell you about my culture. I think there's a meeting
Joanne Lockwood: of minds there. Indeed. I mean, when in Rome, do do as the Romans do.
Derek Cheshire: You you need to you've got to find out how how people how
Derek Cheshire: people eat, sleep, think, dance, drink, whatever,
Derek Cheshire: and and then and then explore that. Once you can do that, you you're in
Derek Cheshire: a position where you can talk to most people about
Derek Cheshire: about most things. But all the time
Derek Cheshire: you're doing that arm's length dance, then
Joanne Lockwood: Or standing at the bar drinking and not joining in. Yeah. I
Derek Cheshire: Joanne. I I I never I never not join in, but you you do
Derek Cheshire: wonder sometimes when people give you a strange Lockwood it's only a week later,
Derek Cheshire: you find out why. And it's, you know, because of something you've done,
Derek Cheshire: something you've said. I mean,
Derek Cheshire: particularly in some of the some of the Asian countries, you you look at somebody
Derek Cheshire: the wrong I mean, Thailand and places like that. You look at
Derek Cheshire: somebody the wrong way, say the wrong thing.
Derek Cheshire: So easy. One moment, the king's a
Derek Cheshire: living god. Now he's not so much of a living
Derek Cheshire: living god. Yeah. No. There are some
Joanne Lockwood: yeah that's the culture intelligence part is it's trying to understand about other cultures
Joanne Lockwood: and knowing how to do that, be that inquisitive and not not go with
Joanne Lockwood: this forthright pushiness all the time as often we do all western and
Joanne Lockwood: western attitudes. So I'm dying to ask you about
Joanne Lockwood: your your coffee sniffing abilities. How do you how do you
Joanne Lockwood: how can you find the nearest coffee show? You just walk just head north to
Joanne Lockwood: be hit 1 or No. No. Wait. I mean, to to to be honest, I'm
Derek Cheshire: not I'm not like a sort of coffee diviner. I can't but I,
Derek Cheshire: for a long time, when my wife was working away from home, I
Derek Cheshire: was I I I I went I went with a key to company,
Derek Cheshire: worked in the hotels or coffee shops. So I
Derek Cheshire: used because you can't you can't stay in a hotel all day apart from the
Derek Cheshire: fact they want to service the room. So I was I I tell you what,
Derek Cheshire: I'll find a Coster or if I Starbucks, whatever it happens to be, to
Derek Cheshire: go and sit with my laptop. And it started
Derek Cheshire: off, I guess, look it up on satnav,
Derek Cheshire: go find it. But there there afterwards, you you just seem to
Derek Cheshire: get used to what the places where coffee shops are going to
Derek Cheshire: be. I mean, if you're always stuck, there's always gonna be one at a
Derek Cheshire: retail park. There always is. But where where are these gonna
Derek Cheshire: be? Certain places on the high street, in in town
Derek Cheshire: centers, you just just seem to be able to find them.
Derek Cheshire: It it's it's it's natural. I I can't put my finger on
Derek Cheshire: it. It's very good
Joanne Lockwood: center because we're my wife and I were in the West Country for,
Joanne Lockwood: holiday early September, and we were wandering around Dartmouth.
Joanne Lockwood: And we got out of the car, we parked, we thought, oh, let's just nip
Joanne Lockwood: into this pub and grab a coffee or have a quick
Joanne Lockwood: bite to eat. And we sat down and thought, oh, here
Joanne Lockwood: we are, Wetherspoons. The first pub we found is
Joanne Lockwood: like Wetherspoons. And you say that these places are
Joanne Lockwood: put in these convenient places where the
Joanne Lockwood: first thing you find is that place, isn't it? It's not accident. It's kind
Joanne Lockwood: of deliberate planning. No. They've they've they've done their research. They know exactly who's
Derek Cheshire: gonna pass by, what they need to offer to to to attract
Derek Cheshire: you. It's, the from the car park. Yeah. Out
Joanne Lockwood: the town center car park on route to the main shops, they know exactly
Joanne Lockwood: that path, what the footfall's gonna be. And it's like, of course no wonder I
Joanne Lockwood: end up in a Witherspoon's more often or there's coffee, Costa or
Joanne Lockwood: a cafe near or something you you just know that they're going to be in
Joanne Lockwood: the right place. Yeah. I I I remember the beginning part of the year, end
Derek Cheshire: of last year, we spent a lot of time in Maidstone, and you
Derek Cheshire: park in the car park, walk up the street, and you will pass Pizza
Derek Cheshire: Express, Bill's, all all of
Derek Cheshire: those places. You you just pass them. I mean, you're
Derek Cheshire: gonna get hooked. You're gonna you're gonna you're gonna get sucked in. So
Joanne Lockwood: But the frustration is if you wanna try somewhere more artisan or different,
Joanne Lockwood: you've gotta go past all of those first then hunt down the back streets, don't
Joanne Lockwood: you? You you do. You do. But but, yes, you you you
Derek Cheshire: Joanne you can find them. You just know where to look or where not to
Derek Cheshire: look. The artisan places, they're they're not
Derek Cheshire: far they're not far away. They just can't afford the high street rents and
Derek Cheshire: rates some sometimes. But, yeah, they're they're not too difficult
Derek Cheshire: to find. They're actually they're it's often good to head for
Derek Cheshire: student land to find those places. Jo
Derek Cheshire: if it is a place with a university or 2 not
Derek Cheshire: far just around the corner, you will you will find them.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I often find anywhere with cobbles or very un
Joanne Lockwood: you know, that old style paving Yeah. Is always a place where you're gonna find
Joanne Lockwood: the art center and stuff because the the modern chains, that
Joanne Lockwood: they they don't like to go into those places that are kind of
Joanne Lockwood: bad pavement. So they they wanna stitch the the the central
Joanne Lockwood: bit, the easy bit. Yeah. Actually, to to to run the risk of,
Derek Cheshire: annoying annoying some some people who, some
Derek Cheshire: some disabled people. I think they, in the
Derek Cheshire: past, have deliberately gone for those, not because they want
Derek Cheshire: to keep disabled people away, but because it's
Derek Cheshire: it's it's probably easier for them to open a small coffee
Derek Cheshire: shop and have disabled access than it is to
Derek Cheshire: open a great big Starbucks to make that all singing or dancing
Derek Cheshire: for disabled access in a small cobbled street. You will not find
Derek Cheshire: Starbucks or Costa there. You'll find Starbucks around the corner on the main street
Derek Cheshire: where it's easy to lower the curbs and not have steps.
Derek Cheshire: And, and and also
Derek Cheshire: they tend to have lots of upstairs space.
Derek Cheshire: So I think I think it's something to some some
Derek Cheshire: extent, they they use the unwanted
Derek Cheshire: space. And if they didn't use it, then that would be an
Derek Cheshire: empty space in our towns and cities, which which which which
Derek Cheshire: is which is good. But it has meant that our coffee
Derek Cheshire: shops, though, are taking over our retail parks. And
Derek Cheshire: then there's Costas cost us everywhere. Even petrol stations
Derek Cheshire: are full of cost us now. Oh, they are. Yeah. That's right.
Joanne Lockwood: You got your self-service machines, everything. Yeah. It's it
Joanne Lockwood: is. I remember I remember the discussion, you probably remember them
Joanne Lockwood: in the nineties and the turn of the century, where we were
Joanne Lockwood: talking about this trying to turn Britain into a cafe culture, trying to move people
Joanne Lockwood: out of this drinking habit and getting into coffee shops
Joanne Lockwood: like the French. And now suddenly we're overrun with
Joanne Lockwood: with coffee shops and those sort of places and
Joanne Lockwood: all the pubs are shutting aren't they Jo we have changed our culture completely in
Joanne Lockwood: in less than a generation. But the the French the French cafe
Derek Cheshire: combines the best best of both worlds, the coffee shop and
Derek Cheshire: the pub. If you sit on a pavement in France outside a outside a
Derek Cheshire: cafe, that cafe will serve, glasses of beer.
Derek Cheshire: It will serve aperitif. It'll serve your. It'll serve
Derek Cheshire: coffee and pastries and things. And I think when pea people were
Derek Cheshire: envisaged, I I don't I don't when people promoted the cafe culture here,
Derek Cheshire: I don't know what they actually envisaged,
Derek Cheshire: but I don't think it's what we've got now. I don't cafe cafes
Derek Cheshire: and coffee shops are are subtly different, and
Derek Cheshire: cafes are places generally where you can spend a lot more time
Derek Cheshire: at once you Yes. Like an all day drop in. It's it's it's playing chess
Joanne Lockwood: or Domino's or something. You can go there to meet your friends for the day
Joanne Lockwood: with it. Yeah. You can have a have a cup of coffee late morning. Oh,
Derek Cheshire: it's lunchtime. Shall we have some lunch? And you you can be there for
Derek Cheshire: hours. And those are the sorts of things that we should have maybe put also
Derek Cheshire: put in some of our town centers rather than rather than
Derek Cheshire: I mean, I can think of where I where we go when we go up
Derek Cheshire: up to Scotland to visit my wife's parents.
Derek Cheshire: You know, where you have a street that goes straight through, People
Derek Cheshire: build a bypass and that's and and the town center dies.
Derek Cheshire: And the one thing that would have helped, for instance, in that case, is
Derek Cheshire: pedestrianizing the middle because you can drive right around it anyway.
Derek Cheshire: But instead of just putting coffee shops, have cafes, coffee, and
Derek Cheshire: things that keep people in. I mean, a lot a lot of the shopping
Derek Cheshire: malls have actually got very good at this. They their
Derek Cheshire: places aren't just that's why they have food courts,
Derek Cheshire: so that you have Costa. You have,
Derek Cheshire: pizza places. You have, TGI
Derek Cheshire: Fridays. You you have, Carluchos or or
Derek Cheshire: whatever. You have all these things together, and it keeps people there for a
Derek Cheshire: for a long period of time. So
Joanne Lockwood: Sorry. We're in sort of COVID world, aren't
Joanne Lockwood: we? I mean, there's there's opportunities here because pubs are closing
Joanne Lockwood: everywhere, coffee shops themselves struggling because they're not getting a
Joanne Lockwood: footfall, Retail is on its knees. We hear about,
Joanne Lockwood: the Arcadia Group just the other day, potentially even
Joanne Lockwood: today has gone into. At the time this podcast recording, we're
Joanne Lockwood: not sure, but we never know. We're recording on the day we're supposed to hear.
Joanne Lockwood: So Yeah. So yeah, there's an opportunity now to
Joanne Lockwood: I I think towns and city councils are now looking at how they regenerate
Joanne Lockwood: post COVID to bring people back in that they're looking to bring more
Joanne Lockwood: hybrid accommodation
Joanne Lockwood: and retail, a mix rather than before. It's been kind of
Joanne Lockwood: a combination and the outskirts all of the shops are set or the commerce is
Joanne Lockwood: kind of centralized but now that that that we've got all this space, how can
Joanne Lockwood: what can we do with that debentures? What can we do with that knight and
Joanne Lockwood: leave? What can we do with that space? And maybe flats or a combination
Joanne Lockwood: is the way to Jo. Yeah. And then making sure there is places to socialize
Joanne Lockwood: within that. Otherwise, we end up with these big vacuums again. Yeah. A lot of
Derek Cheshire: places now, what they're doing is the the the the ground level space is
Derek Cheshire: still shop space. But the what, I I know
Derek Cheshire: something in Sheffield, we've got some big shops with that are actually 3 floors.
Derek Cheshire: So you've got 2 other floors. It's ripe for turning into
Derek Cheshire: flats. Jo you can actually keep people in the cities to keep keep
Derek Cheshire: some of the life there. And peep people do do love the
Derek Cheshire: non chain shops that we have, but
Derek Cheshire: sometimes these places are just far too far too convenient.
Derek Cheshire: And I have sympathy with the small shopkeepers, but I
Derek Cheshire: think when I think just complaining about the fact that, you know, Tescos
Derek Cheshire: or Primark is down the road is is not gonna help. They're gonna still gonna
Derek Cheshire: stay there. So what can you do that's gonna attract these
Derek Cheshire: people that are now moving in? These people don't necessarily
Derek Cheshire: want Primark Fashion. You know, they they might want some,
Derek Cheshire: artisan manufactured jewelry or or whatever it
Derek Cheshire: happens to be, locally made soap, whatever
Derek Cheshire: whatever it happens to be, there is a there is a place for it.
Derek Cheshire: And there's a place That's the city hope. And COVID will be a catalyst
Joanne Lockwood: for reinvention in this sort of area, you know, where people can be
Joanne Lockwood: artisans. They can start their own boutiques. And some of the
Joanne Lockwood: some of these big chains, we've we've now realized that they're unsustainable
Joanne Lockwood: in the modern world. You just buy online. But you can't buy
Joanne Lockwood: craft and artisan stuff online so easy. Okay, they do sell online.
Joanne Lockwood: But you really don't want to try that piece of jewelry on. You really wanna
Joanne Lockwood: try that dress on that is not necessarily traditional sizes.
Joanne Lockwood: You need to go and try it on, don't you? Yeah. I can imagine that
Derek Cheshire: bespoke tailoring is in the right in the in certain parts of the
Derek Cheshire: world is probably or even in certain parts of the country is doing very
Derek Cheshire: well because you need you need quality, and it's got
Derek Cheshire: to be seen. It's got to be felt. It's got to be touched. So that's
Derek Cheshire: one of the one of the things I I try talking to people about is
Derek Cheshire: because as as a speaker, you know what happened as soon
Derek Cheshire: as as soon as, COVID hit us. People people say, what
Derek Cheshire: do I do? I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll get I'll get
Derek Cheshire: a Zoom license, and I'll deliver this stuff on Zoom was exactly
Derek Cheshire: what they said. And people would and still are. The
Derek Cheshire: university lecturers are still doing that. Yes. But they've got a cap
Derek Cheshire: 2 audience. But that's what people did. Everybody did it for
Derek Cheshire: a while. Other people have moved on, done other things, which which is great.
Derek Cheshire: But my my question to people is, yes, everybody's doing
Derek Cheshire: this. You've gotta be different. So how different is your different?
Derek Cheshire: What's the what is the difference that sets you apart? What is the
Derek Cheshire: extra value? How is it different from, you
Derek Cheshire: know, Giant's offering, what what she does?
Derek Cheshire: What where where's where's the value? How does it help you? Or or
Derek Cheshire: do you just like it because it's soft and
Derek Cheshire: cuddly or you like hot chocolate, whatever it happens to be? Where
Derek Cheshire: where is this difference? So that's that's that's one of the two things that
Derek Cheshire: I I try and talk about is how to make your different different. But as
Derek Cheshire: you alluded to before, how how do you how do you get off the track
Derek Cheshire: before you can even see whether the train's coming or not? And
Derek Cheshire: that's something we've got to got to be used to as well.
Joanne Lockwood: But Jo you think a lot of this having to be different comes from the
Joanne Lockwood: fact that we we try and describe ourselves in the language of
Joanne Lockwood: this sameness. You know, what do I do? Well,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm I'm like other DNI professionals. I I speak about this. So
Joanne Lockwood: So immediately, I have to tell you that I'm the same, but I'm different
Joanne Lockwood: being the same. Jo maybe we start by saying,
Joanne Lockwood: well, I'm not like anybody else. I'm not, yeah, I don't
Joanne Lockwood: talk about whatever they talk about, I have my own views and ideas, I've written
Joanne Lockwood: my own book or whatever I do because otherwise we
Joanne Lockwood: start by being another coffee shop. We're not another coffee shop. We're
Joanne Lockwood: we're we're a meeting place. Oh, would you people just come in and meet, and
Joanne Lockwood: they can get up a coffee, they have a beer, they can socialize.
Derek Cheshire: Indeed. That's it's far easier to demonstrate than it is to
Derek Cheshire: describe. Jo, yeah, if somebody
Derek Cheshire: says, oh, go go go down to I don't know. I can't think
Derek Cheshire: of a good name for a coffee shop. I'm looking at my pucker pad. So
Derek Cheshire: may may may yes. May may maybe we've got the pucker
Derek Cheshire: pad. What's that? Come along and come along and have a go.
Derek Cheshire: You know? Well, it's it's pukka. Maybe maybe we do
Derek Cheshire: maybe we do some Indian cuisine. Maybe we don't. It's a pad, so it's
Derek Cheshire: more like home. It's great. So a place where you can relax and have food.
Derek Cheshire: Well, if you wanna call it that, but that's not what we call it. But
Derek Cheshire: if you if you create some interest but if somebody says, oh, I've just opened
Derek Cheshire: this boutique coffee restaurant y place,
Derek Cheshire: Well That's a restaurant. That's an office shop. Okay. There's one there's one down the
Derek Cheshire: road, and and that and that and that is that is the
Derek Cheshire: problem. That's why I think when people started going networking and things, people say,
Derek Cheshire: what and what do you do? You would say, when you said
Derek Cheshire: I do this, it's that bit that everybody tells you
Derek Cheshire: to be different. But then people say, well, what do you
Derek Cheshire: mean? It's like No. I I inspire people to make more money or whatever.
Joanne Lockwood: It's like, okay. You're an accountant. I do this, do that. Okay. You're one of
Joanne Lockwood: those. As someone you see on LinkedIn, they're kind of Jo
Joanne Lockwood: disrespect to to the people who promote this kind of BNI
Joanne Lockwood: attitude to networking, but it's almost like it it
Joanne Lockwood: it doesn't tell you anything, but you think you're different. And I
Joanne Lockwood: think I often just find them that they could they could be a bit kind
Joanne Lockwood: of nondescript. Yeah. It can it can help
Derek Cheshire: it can help create a hook. I mean, I I I came across an accountant.
Derek Cheshire: And, basically, they didn't wander off wander on for hours. They just
Derek Cheshire: said, I help you save or, no, I help you pay
Derek Cheshire: less tax. Everybody in the room got
Derek Cheshire: that. That that was a person who would attract a whole
Derek Cheshire: load of business cards. Yes. That's a good hook. That's a good
Joanne Lockwood: hook. That is a that is a that is a that is a good hook.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. So something like that. But, yeah, I
Derek Cheshire: I help people to make best use of their money and get their tax
Derek Cheshire: returns in on time. Yeah. You're an accountant.
Derek Cheshire: So what? Yeah. But it's it's I think,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, it's about differentiating yourself in a very authentic way as
Joanne Lockwood: well so people understand it. That's that's half the battle, isn't it? Yeah. Some of
Joanne Lockwood: them they come across a bit kind of formulaic. I I just took them to
Joanne Lockwood: oh, you've been to local networking meetings for other small businesses and that's how you
Joanne Lockwood: come across. But maybe You could tell people who
Joanne Lockwood: work for corporate companies, they actually say, what is it? What do you do? Well,
Joanne Lockwood: I do this. I do this. I do this. And you could tell them to
Joanne Lockwood: be a corporate as someone who's selling because just on the LinkedIn
Joanne Lockwood: profile, it it's it's so obvious. Yeah. As a small small business,
Derek Cheshire: there is there is the temptation, should we say, to try
Derek Cheshire: all things to all I I I'm never using the term, but I
Derek Cheshire: shouldn't have done that. All things to all people, should we say.
Derek Cheshire: And it's it's it's just it's
Derek Cheshire: just impossible, really. Find out all the different
Derek Cheshire: places you could sell, do things for, and and
Derek Cheshire: and and as the Americans say, choose your niche.
Joanne Lockwood: But it is. It's it's kind of sometimes you you have to not be all
Joanne Lockwood: things to all people. You have to be a big thing to 1 person or
Joanne Lockwood: a big thing to 2 people. And I
Joanne Lockwood: think, yeah, if you're gonna do best selling, yes, sell cheaper, sell
Joanne Lockwood: lots. Yeah. Or you sell expensive, sell a few. Yeah. That's the 2 models, really,
Joanne Lockwood: aren't they? Yeah. Or Yeah. Yeah. Be be primark or be I don't
Derek Cheshire: know. I can't think of somebody that sells really expensive jewelry, but,
Derek Cheshire: yeah, some something like that where you you sell 2 pieces a week.
Derek Cheshire: That that's fine. That's all you need to do. Or do you have to sell,
Derek Cheshire: or or Is that is that Arcadia?
Derek Cheshire: No. No. That no. It's not. I I can think of a a place. In
Derek Cheshire: fact, there's a place called it's called, what's it called now?
Derek Cheshire: Tiago in Sheffield. They do almost exclusively
Derek Cheshire: wedding jewelry. The they're only open Tuesday
Derek Cheshire: to Saturday, and they're not open all day. But you drive
Derek Cheshire: past and their window looks fantastic, and they
Derek Cheshire: just specialize, they make it there and then. You go in.
Derek Cheshire: You get exactly what you want. So they don't need to they
Derek Cheshire: they they don't need to be to follow the Ratna Ratna model
Derek Cheshire: or or anything else like that. They they know what they do, and they
Derek Cheshire: they are well known for it. So that that's what that's what you want to
Derek Cheshire: do. Yeah. That's right. And I I
Joanne Lockwood: think you you just have to wherever you are, be it. I think that's the
Joanne Lockwood: key thing, isn't it? And don't don't keep flipping or flopping or trying to be
Joanne Lockwood: more than you can be. Jo many people try to over over deliver
Joanne Lockwood: on outside of their core expertise. Well
Derek Cheshire: and you and you also have a lot to be honest, you also get
Derek Cheshire: told a lot by other people. If you listen too much to other people,
Derek Cheshire: there are certain lots of groups on Facebook, for instance, where if you ask for
Derek Cheshire: marketing or branding advice, you will be
Derek Cheshire: told, oh, you should do this. You should have a photo done this way,
Derek Cheshire: these colors, and all the rest of it. I I must admit, I
Derek Cheshire: I I got I I got particularly confused at one point. And I
Derek Cheshire: actually had a really nice chat with a with a with a proper
Derek Cheshire: branding guy who just said, look just
Derek Cheshire: just be you. You know, if you don't want to wear a suit, don't
Derek Cheshire: wear a suit. If you want to wear bright yellow, wear bright
Derek Cheshire: yellow. Otherwise, it'll it'll, it you'll
Derek Cheshire: just come on across as not being authentic. So
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. If you look uncomfortable or you you don't sound right, then, yeah, you're better
Joanne Lockwood: off just being being a good version of you is is is
Joanne Lockwood: the best answer on that. Yep. We start we start this conversation by
Joanne Lockwood: talking about your soup of life and, we we had a quick chat before
Joanne Lockwood: we started talking about your your soup. Oh, yes. How how you
Joanne Lockwood: describe the universe. And we can't get to the end, which we're
Joanne Lockwood: coming to in in a minute, without talking about the soup. What is the soup
Joanne Lockwood: all about? The soup is it's it's really a model I
Derek Cheshire: I I use for for organizations. It Joanne apply
Derek Cheshire: it applies to society as well. But what
Derek Cheshire: I was was trying to get away from was this
Derek Cheshire: idea of hierarchies. We we don't actually need
Derek Cheshire: hierarchies. Hierarchies are there purely for
Derek Cheshire: some people to feel good about themselves or people
Derek Cheshire: in the world of management in very big quotes not
Derek Cheshire: being they come across this idea
Derek Cheshire: of spans of control. We must have more than 6
Derek Cheshire: people reporting to it. This is no. That's where it all came from. So
Derek Cheshire: it it just begets a hierarchy. There's no real reason
Derek Cheshire: other other other than other than that you're told that
Derek Cheshire: it's not a good idea have a flat organization. And when people
Derek Cheshire: get promoted or either they get more money or they think they're
Derek Cheshire: more important, so they have more knowledge or more experience or whatever, it
Derek Cheshire: creates a hierarchy, and we we don't need it. So
Derek Cheshire: I my idea is to have a model that's if you think of soup and
Derek Cheshire: croutons, and that's it, there's a little bit
Derek Cheshire: of hierarchy there, but not much. The soup is literally
Derek Cheshire: the culture. So in an organization, it's organizational
Derek Cheshire: culture. If it's society, it's just the culture in society. And
Derek Cheshire: these are these are all the organic cultures that just grow.
Derek Cheshire: They're, you know, they're not things that people say this is how it will be.
Derek Cheshire: That's espoused or corporate culture. So it's just the
Derek Cheshire: stuff that grows. We are the croutons. We float about in this.
Derek Cheshire: And our our worth is or should be
Derek Cheshire: measured by what we know, the connections
Derek Cheshire: we make, the
Derek Cheshire: the the the the trust networks as well, the people the people that trust you,
Derek Cheshire: the people that you trust. These are all very
Derek Cheshire: they're they're one to many interpersonal things. So the
Derek Cheshire: the structure chart, if you like, for either society or a company
Derek Cheshire: should be something like a social media map. So the people
Derek Cheshire: at these, the the the these points where all these things
Derek Cheshire: converge, they they are people Jump the junctures. Jump jump jump jump jump. Yeah. Jump
Derek Cheshire: jump. Yeah. Jo so everybody's connected in different ways via
Derek Cheshire: knowledge, experience, trust, whatever, advice.
Derek Cheshire: And you get, I wouldn't say
Derek Cheshire: promoted, but you get rewarded according
Derek Cheshire: to your your your, I
Derek Cheshire: would say, worth, not monetary worth, but value. So
Derek Cheshire: Output. Yeah. Contribution. Yeah. Your your
Derek Cheshire: your contribution. In in in so in some cases, in in
Derek Cheshire: charities or civil service or companies,
Derek Cheshire: there is a need for people to manage certain things. So, yes, there'll be
Derek Cheshire: really good professional managers to manage things. But the
Derek Cheshire: people who would normally get promoted or try and be, try
Derek Cheshire: and go up the greasy pole for want of a better description
Derek Cheshire: doesn't need to do that. If they're happy doing what they do with the knowledge
Derek Cheshire: they have I mean, the prime example I mean, I've worked worked in in
Derek Cheshire: technology for a number of years. People get
Derek Cheshire: themselves promoted to managing director when, really, they're absolutely
Derek Cheshire: a software engineers. They should never be the managing director of a company.
Derek Cheshire: So it it it would it would it would stop that. People can people can
Derek Cheshire: stay where they're happiest and
Derek Cheshire: contribute according to what they want to. They're the
Derek Cheshire: most use the things that they're most used at, the things that they enjoy
Derek Cheshire: doing with the people they enjoy doing it with.
Derek Cheshire: And the spin off of that is what it actually does
Derek Cheshire: is it creates globalization of a
Derek Cheshire: different sort because at the moment, we're everybody's very anti
Derek Cheshire: globalization because they think about exploiting third world countries,
Derek Cheshire: about offshoring, all the rest of it. What it actually
Derek Cheshire: does is it globalizes globalizes
Derek Cheshire: knowledge and creativity. So these sorts of companies, these
Derek Cheshire: sorts of organizations,
Derek Cheshire: universities can can actually operate globally. So it's a it's
Derek Cheshire: a different sort of globalization, and, hopefully, it's a place
Derek Cheshire: where people are much happier working or
Derek Cheshire: or or living in. So we're all we're all croutons
Derek Cheshire: in soup. We all everybody has a part to play is is is the
Derek Cheshire: gist of the simple version of it.
Derek Cheshire: So I can see I can see the I can I can see I can
Derek Cheshire: hear the audience all going, not sure about that?
Joanne Lockwood: Well, it's not too dissimilar to some of the ways I talk. I when I
Joanne Lockwood: talk about to define the difference between diversity and inclusion. So I
Joanne Lockwood: often talk about diversity as being the mix, it's the
Joanne Lockwood: ingredients for the cake. Whereas inclusion is the
Joanne Lockwood: emulsifier, it's the eggs, it's the butter that sticks the cake
Joanne Lockwood: together and makes it a cake. Because without the the
Joanne Lockwood: emulsifying element, the bits are just floating around.
Joanne Lockwood: It's not a cake. Indeed. So your your your croutons
Joanne Lockwood: are the people that make the diversity, and the soup is kind of
Joanne Lockwood: the inclusion that holds everyone together and gives people a a kind of a
Joanne Lockwood: world to exist in. Yep. And and the best the best thing about about that
Derek Cheshire: all that is people say, oh, you can only manage
Derek Cheshire: what you can measure. And I say, yeah. Fine. You can measure it
Derek Cheshire: all. Because it's people talk about measuring
Derek Cheshire: innovation, oh, no. Key performance indicators. No. That
Derek Cheshire: just measures the output, just measures how many widgets drop off your production
Derek Cheshire: line. It doesn't doesn't measure innovation. If innovation
Derek Cheshire: is people being creative, people sharing ideas,
Derek Cheshire: creating knowledge, whatever, that's what we want.
Derek Cheshire: So all this the the the bit these
Derek Cheshire: ambiguous bits of the soup, because they depend on behaviors
Derek Cheshire: and attitudes, They can actually be measured. We've been surveying these
Derek Cheshire: things for ages. I mean, how many attitudes soup surveys have we
Derek Cheshire: have we all come across? They just have to be very carefully crafted
Derek Cheshire: but you can do it. Of course. You're selling. I talked about the same with
Joanne Lockwood: diversity initiatives that you can it's not about quotas. It's
Joanne Lockwood: about direction of travel. You know, you're looking to become more gender
Joanne Lockwood: diverse or more racially represented, you can
Joanne Lockwood: measure that. How you get there it's into it's it depends
Joanne Lockwood: on the organization. But, yeah, you can measure this without quotas. But
Joanne Lockwood: Indeed. I I I always doing it. Yeah. I I I call it innovation
Derek Cheshire: potential. It's a bit like a bit like the voltage in a battery. If the
Derek Cheshire: greater the voltage, the, you know, the more light bulbs you can or
Derek Cheshire: toys you can power or whatever. It's it's exactly like that. It's
Derek Cheshire: just the the energy, if you like, that's waiting to be
Derek Cheshire: unleashed. And the more of it more of it there is, the better it can
Derek Cheshire: be. And that's
Joanne Lockwood: that's so true. And the higher the voltage, the more it
Joanne Lockwood: attracts, doesn't it? Because, actually, we
Joanne Lockwood: want to attract people into organizations, keep hold of them, motivate
Joanne Lockwood: them, empower them without this flat structure that you talked about.
Joanne Lockwood: So with so with this flat structure, without having these layers, because
Joanne Lockwood: layers definitely create biases, they create clicks,
Joanne Lockwood: and and destroy trust. They actually
Derek Cheshire: they actually create they actually create well, one of the ways they create
Derek Cheshire: biases is because all of all of
Derek Cheshire: these layers in in the hierarchy, when when you start
Derek Cheshire: managing lots of people, and I use the term manage loosely. I mean,
Derek Cheshire: you think of a football manager. The football manager does not doesn't stand
Derek Cheshire: on on on the on the touch line and and say, oh, excuse me. Excuse
Derek Cheshire: me, Jim. Move up the right wing a little bit. Move move
Derek Cheshire: here a little bit. He might shout at the old player, but that's
Derek Cheshire: not the way they do it. They see patterns. They want they want the
Derek Cheshire: defense to move like this. They want the midfield to move like and that's the
Derek Cheshire: way we do it. We we we have to use biases and
Derek Cheshire: patterns to to actually cope with,
Derek Cheshire: very large concepts. And the more you
Derek Cheshire: have, the more you have to do it. So the person at the top of
Derek Cheshire: an organization often has no clue what the people at the
Derek Cheshire: bottom do, simply because they they
Derek Cheshire: can't cope with it. Their brains would explode. So,
Derek Cheshire: it it just incur I mean, whether it's deliberate or not, it just
Derek Cheshire: encourages bias and and patterns
Derek Cheshire: subconsciously. Definitely.
Joanne Lockwood: Definitely. Well, on that note, let's leave our audience to
Joanne Lockwood: ponder that thought.
Joanne Lockwood: Thanks, Derek. I mean, we've been going for an hour since I have 5
Joanne Lockwood: minutes. This is a really deep, great conversation. So anyone who's
Joanne Lockwood: listening, I'm sure you'll agree also there's lots to take inspiration from there. How can
Joanne Lockwood: people get in touch with you? What's the best way to find you on? They
Derek Cheshire: can find me absolutely anywhere. They can they can look me up on LinkedIn. They
Derek Cheshire: can go to www.derekcheshire.com.
Derek Cheshire: There's plenty of ways to find me there. Brilliant.
Joanne Lockwood: Brilliant. Do you have a book or anything? No book?
Derek Cheshire: I I I do. I I have I only have the one.
Derek Cheshire: It's called quick I it's called Creativity in
Derek Cheshire: action, available from all good bookstores and Amazon, of course.
Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. I'm sure people are listening in. They wanna get get in contact with you.
Joanne Lockwood: They'll find you on LinkedIn, go to your website. So
Joanne Lockwood: a huge thank you for anyone who's listened today. Thank you for tuning in.
Joanne Lockwood: Please do subscribe to keep updates on future episodes of the
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites podcast that's B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends.
Joanne Lockwood: Tell your colleagues. Jo I have a number of exciting guests lined up I'm sure
Joanne Lockwood: you'll be inspired by over the next weeks months. And don't forget,
Joanne Lockwood: if you'd like to be a guest, please let me know. I'd also welcome
Joanne Lockwood: any feedback or suggestions you may have on how we can improve future
Joanne Lockwood: shows. Please email me at
Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. So
Joanne Lockwood: my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been an absolute pleasure to host this
Joanne Lockwood: podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.