WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.920 --> 00:00:05.600 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host 2 00:00:05.600 --> 00:00:09.085 for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be 3 00:00:09.085 --> 00:00:12.764 interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the 4 00:00:12.764 --> 00:00:16.530 subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a 5 00:00:16.530 --> 00:00:20.050 better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the 6 00:00:20.050 --> 00:00:23.335 future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 7 00:00:26.595 --> 00:00:28.695 That's s double e, change happen.co.uk. 8 00:00:30.589 --> 00:00:33.570 You'll be able to catch up with all of the previous shows on Itunes, 9 00:00:34.030 --> 00:00:37.809 Spotify, and the usual places. So like any headphones, 10 00:00:38.395 --> 00:00:40.895 grab a decaf and let's get going. 11 00:00:42.635 --> 00:00:46.020 Today is episode 24 with the title 12 00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:49.780 'There is Room for Everyone Within the Soup of Life'. 13 00:00:50.719 --> 00:00:54.160 And I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Derek 14 00:00:54.160 --> 00:00:57.895 Cheshire. Now Derek describes himself as someone who 15 00:00:57.895 --> 00:01:01.515 could see how to get off the tracks before the train comes. 16 00:01:02.200 --> 00:01:06.040 And when I asked Derek to describe his superpower, he said that he 17 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:09.495 could find the nearest coffee shop without Google or 18 00:01:09.495 --> 00:01:13.195 Satnav. And we'll find out about that in a minute, I'm sure. 19 00:01:13.735 --> 00:01:17.400 So hello, Derek. Welcome to the show. Well, hi, 20 00:01:17.400 --> 00:01:20.619 Jo. Thanks for having me. It's nice to be here on a 21 00:01:21.159 --> 00:01:24.875 on a horrible cold day up here in Yorkshire and to talk 22 00:01:24.875 --> 00:01:27.935 about some things that'll warm up the cockles of people's hearts. 23 00:01:29.195 --> 00:01:32.634 Oh, that sounds very interesting, and I'm dying to find out about your coffee shop 24 00:01:32.634 --> 00:01:35.150 navigation techniques. Jo, Derek, 25 00:01:36.729 --> 00:01:40.570 why do you say that there is room for everyone within the 26 00:01:40.570 --> 00:01:43.445 soup of life? What does that mean to you? Well, 27 00:01:45.665 --> 00:01:49.285 the the field that I inhabit is is basically creativity 28 00:01:49.425 --> 00:01:52.390 and innovation. And in the widest 29 00:01:53.010 --> 00:01:55.590 possible sense, that, 30 00:01:57.250 --> 00:02:00.955 diversity in the widest possible sense is what we need because we don't 31 00:02:00.955 --> 00:02:04.795 want the same point of view, the same things bringing up, the 32 00:02:04.795 --> 00:02:08.639 same interactions, the same 33 00:02:09.500 --> 00:02:13.040 tensions and frictions, if if you like. I'm not saying that 34 00:02:13.420 --> 00:02:16.160 we we want tension filled 35 00:02:16.814 --> 00:02:20.495 diversity. But when you bring things together like you do in, 36 00:02:20.814 --> 00:02:24.174 in in humor, for instance, you know, the straight man, the funny 37 00:02:24.174 --> 00:02:28.000 man, you have the logical, the not so 38 00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:31.620 logical. When you get all of these things together and 39 00:02:32.305 --> 00:02:35.765 you you you have a little bit of what I call creative tension, 40 00:02:36.225 --> 00:02:40.065 and that's where the ideas and the things for me come about. So 41 00:02:40.065 --> 00:02:43.190 I I I come at it purely 42 00:02:43.810 --> 00:02:47.569 initially, purely from a creativity and an innovation point of 43 00:02:47.569 --> 00:02:51.335 view. But, of course, that brings with it all sorts of other 44 00:02:51.335 --> 00:02:54.795 issues surrounding, diversity and inclusion because 45 00:02:55.335 --> 00:02:58.935 you can't just use people's brains. You have to 46 00:02:58.935 --> 00:03:02.380 use people or use in big quotes, 47 00:03:02.920 --> 00:03:06.600 I think. Utilize, I think, is probably a better 48 00:03:06.600 --> 00:03:10.385 word. Utilize. Make make make use of people. Take contributions from people. 49 00:03:10.385 --> 00:03:13.525 Yes. And there there you go. I've just actually highlighted 50 00:03:14.144 --> 00:03:16.965 one of the issues, is language. 51 00:03:18.100 --> 00:03:21.620 It's it's a huge thing generally, but it's it's also a big 52 00:03:21.620 --> 00:03:25.000 thing within the, creativity and innovation sphere 53 00:03:25.380 --> 00:03:28.865 because we bring to traditionally bring together people 54 00:03:28.865 --> 00:03:32.645 from a number of functions within companies. 55 00:03:33.860 --> 00:03:37.299 And we've said, oh, well, let's have people from marketing. Let's have people from sales. 56 00:03:37.299 --> 00:03:40.980 Let's have people from engineering. Yeah. Let's create a common 57 00:03:40.980 --> 00:03:44.705 language. But the common that's where the common language actually 58 00:03:44.705 --> 00:03:48.224 stops. When you start including many 59 00:03:48.224 --> 00:03:51.599 different people, you have actually got to expand your vocabulary. 60 00:03:53.099 --> 00:03:56.799 So it's yeah. We just highlighted one one of the issues. 61 00:03:59.085 --> 00:04:02.865 Yeah. You hear use. I might I think abuse. Use and abuse. 62 00:04:02.925 --> 00:04:06.620 Well, actually, you didn't mean that. You meant utilize, which is what? Utilize or 63 00:04:06.620 --> 00:04:10.460 make use utilize or make make use of. Yeah. And that and 64 00:04:10.460 --> 00:04:13.280 that that is the thing. People people will inadvertently, 65 00:04:14.300 --> 00:04:17.045 make use of the wrong phrases, the wrong the wrong language. 66 00:04:18.785 --> 00:04:22.625 And one of one of the issues that I I I see is very, 67 00:04:22.625 --> 00:04:26.100 very easy to, in some cases, quite rightly to take 68 00:04:26.320 --> 00:04:29.680 take offense or or or exception to the use of 69 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:33.324 something. But one of the problem one of one of the 70 00:04:33.324 --> 00:04:36.865 one of the problems I I I tend to have, is that 71 00:04:37.805 --> 00:04:41.160 the more we legislate, the more we have rules to 72 00:04:41.160 --> 00:04:45.000 tell, people what they should do or 73 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:48.535 think, the more it encourages some 74 00:04:48.535 --> 00:04:52.235 people to find loopholes in in those rules. 75 00:04:54.280 --> 00:04:57.960 I I just I I think I said, in in the in my, 76 00:04:58.280 --> 00:05:01.855 my my notes beef before before I applied to come on your your show 77 00:05:01.855 --> 00:05:05.535 was that my my greatest, diversity and in 78 00:05:05.855 --> 00:05:09.555 inclusion wish is that there is no need for it at all 79 00:05:09.960 --> 00:05:13.500 simply because common sense prevails. And that's 80 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:17.240 that's when in a way, that's that's what what I'd like to see. We don't 81 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:20.635 have to think about these things because common sense and 82 00:05:20.635 --> 00:05:23.935 decency rules rather than rules rules. 83 00:05:25.675 --> 00:05:28.015 I yeah. I agree. I mean, I'm 84 00:05:29.540 --> 00:05:33.300 I often speak about the fact that HR is kind of 85 00:05:33.300 --> 00:05:37.060 like the bastion of rule creating. And every time something goes 86 00:05:37.060 --> 00:05:40.675 wrong, they create a rule to stop happening again. So we end 87 00:05:40.675 --> 00:05:44.514 up applying the rule for the one to the many. And 88 00:05:44.514 --> 00:05:48.100 before we know it, we have so many rules tying us in knots that 89 00:05:48.100 --> 00:05:51.700 we stop people being able to think for themselves and and think 90 00:05:51.700 --> 00:05:55.460 rationally and see themselves out of situations. I think what you're saying there is often 91 00:05:55.460 --> 00:05:58.845 we have these rules, we over police or we under 92 00:05:58.845 --> 00:06:02.444 police or as you said people find their way around 93 00:06:02.444 --> 00:06:06.020 rules or actually there's a loophole if I stand on one leg and say 94 00:06:06.020 --> 00:06:08.280 something it doesn't count or if I 95 00:06:09.939 --> 00:06:13.555 we're doing the same with COVID aren't we we're creating so many rules that 96 00:06:13.555 --> 00:06:17.395 the rules don't join up, there's so many loopholes in these rules that 97 00:06:17.395 --> 00:06:20.755 people really don't know where they Joanne, so you're right that we do often create 98 00:06:20.755 --> 00:06:24.070 too many rules rather than teaching people how to be 99 00:06:24.850 --> 00:06:28.530 good citizens or good communicators. That's the that's the thing we should be doing, isn't 100 00:06:28.530 --> 00:06:32.185 it? Yeah. It's some something something very similar to what we what we do with 101 00:06:32.185 --> 00:06:35.965 with with, kids at school. There's a lot of talk of people 102 00:06:36.344 --> 00:06:38.970 saying, what should we be teaching kids at school? 103 00:06:40.010 --> 00:06:43.450 No. We shouldn't be teaching them anything apart from how to 104 00:06:43.450 --> 00:06:46.830 learn. Once they know how to learn, then they can learn 105 00:06:47.225 --> 00:06:51.065 absolutely anything if they want to. So it's it's a 106 00:06:51.065 --> 00:06:54.505 little it's a little bit like that. If if people if you you show people 107 00:06:54.505 --> 00:06:58.319 the way so they learn how to behave or how to deal with 108 00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:01.680 other people that aren't, you know, aren't maybe quite like they are, 109 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:05.840 then, and and, similarly, I think the people on both 110 00:07:05.840 --> 00:07:08.504 sides of the fence do do need to be 111 00:07:09.604 --> 00:07:12.164 do need to be mindful of this because I I was just thinking about this 112 00:07:12.164 --> 00:07:15.979 this morning. I I have family up in up in the north of Scotland. And 113 00:07:15.979 --> 00:07:19.439 I know until fairly recently, you could actually say that 114 00:07:20.539 --> 00:07:24.080 many of them had never seen anybody that wasn't white. 115 00:07:25.485 --> 00:07:29.325 They just hadn't. So some they could comment on this in 116 00:07:29.325 --> 00:07:33.025 a in a say if they've came to visit me, they could comment on this 117 00:07:33.770 --> 00:07:36.670 in a public place and people go, oh, dear. That's terrible. 118 00:07:37.370 --> 00:07:40.970 But they don't know. They they have they have they haven't learned how to 119 00:07:40.970 --> 00:07:44.785 learn about this particular thing. So you you you sort of have 120 00:07:44.785 --> 00:07:48.485 to have to forgive them in that instance. So it's 121 00:07:48.625 --> 00:07:52.169 it's all very it is very messy. As I 122 00:07:52.169 --> 00:07:54.990 said, common sense and decency and 123 00:07:56.010 --> 00:07:59.625 even even being inquisitive. I mean, we're inquisitive 124 00:07:59.925 --> 00:08:03.365 in the world of work. And when I talk about creativity and innovation, we're very 125 00:08:03.365 --> 00:08:05.944 inquisitive. We're curious about things. 126 00:08:08.030 --> 00:08:11.010 We need to be more inquisitive and curious about 127 00:08:11.710 --> 00:08:14.690 other people, without obviously 128 00:08:16.685 --> 00:08:20.365 being heavy handed or whatever the rest of it Jo that people do 129 00:08:20.365 --> 00:08:24.070 actually understand what it's like to be, you know, a different 130 00:08:24.070 --> 00:08:27.910 color, different religion, different race, different different 131 00:08:27.910 --> 00:08:30.570 numbers of lambs and legs, whatever it happens to be. 132 00:08:32.795 --> 00:08:35.915 That's so true. I mean, it sounds like you've been sitting on one of my 133 00:08:35.915 --> 00:08:38.315 sessions or I've been sitting on one of your sessions because I say it's that 134 00:08:38.315 --> 00:08:42.030 same thing. It's not about learning how to speak 135 00:08:42.030 --> 00:08:45.790 to someone with a disability, someone who is gay, someone who is trans, someone who 136 00:08:45.790 --> 00:08:49.465 is white or black. It's about understanding how to speak to people And that I 137 00:08:49.465 --> 00:08:53.145 think that's what you said was learning how to learn, but learning how to speak. 138 00:08:53.145 --> 00:08:56.800 It's it's this cultural and emotional intelligence. So that if 139 00:08:56.800 --> 00:09:00.640 I've not met someone who is black or disabled before, it doesn't matter 140 00:09:00.640 --> 00:09:04.115 because I've got people skills. I've got listening skills. I've got 141 00:09:04.274 --> 00:09:08.115 curiosity skills. Yeah. And and and on the flip 142 00:09:08.115 --> 00:09:11.255 side of that, those people, if you 143 00:09:12.740 --> 00:09:15.700 if you're trying to be curious and inquisitive, is 144 00:09:16.500 --> 00:09:20.334 there there is sometimes when people people get asked too much, 145 00:09:20.334 --> 00:09:24.175 they start feeling, well, you're discriminating. You're picking you're 146 00:09:24.175 --> 00:09:27.769 picking on me. No. I'm just trying to find out more. I'd I'd 147 00:09:27.769 --> 00:09:29.709 I'd love to know about more, honestly. 148 00:09:31.529 --> 00:09:34.490 And and it is quite difficult. When when we go abroad to other countries on 149 00:09:34.490 --> 00:09:38.305 a holiday, for instance, we have no trouble or some of us 150 00:09:38.305 --> 00:09:41.985 have no trouble, should I say, immersing ourselves in the culture, finding 151 00:09:41.985 --> 00:09:45.750 out about other people, accepting the way they behave. But 152 00:09:45.750 --> 00:09:49.110 those same people could be doing what they do in their own 153 00:09:49.110 --> 00:09:52.870 country here, and people take exception to it, 154 00:09:52.870 --> 00:09:55.085 or they just don't bother finding out. 155 00:09:56.525 --> 00:10:00.285 So I don't know whether it's a I don't think it's just a British 156 00:10:00.285 --> 00:10:03.885 thing, but because we're in the UK, we do actually come 157 00:10:03.885 --> 00:10:07.410 across this a lot more. But, again, 158 00:10:07.410 --> 00:10:11.170 that's stereotypes, isn't it? So you're talking about the 159 00:10:11.170 --> 00:10:14.815 British holiday that goes to the English pub and eats fish and chips and roast 160 00:10:14.815 --> 00:10:18.415 beef on Saturday and then complains that the gravy isn't as good as it is 161 00:10:18.415 --> 00:10:22.029 back home? A a little bit. Unfortunately, I've 162 00:10:22.029 --> 00:10:25.790 seen far I mean, I've seen people on holiday do absolutely nothing. 163 00:10:25.790 --> 00:10:29.630 But, once, I remember or years ago when 164 00:10:29.630 --> 00:10:32.945 I was a student, we went we 165 00:10:33.565 --> 00:10:37.105 we were into railing, and I was we caught the 166 00:10:38.550 --> 00:10:42.149 the ferry across the Joanne, and we were at 167 00:10:42.149 --> 00:10:45.964 Ostend Railway Station waiting for the first train of the day, just sitting there 168 00:10:45.964 --> 00:10:49.485 waiting for our train. We already had our tickets. And there were some 169 00:10:49.485 --> 00:10:52.464 English guys, typically loud. 170 00:10:53.490 --> 00:10:57.090 They they were from the south, but they could have been from anywhere. They just 171 00:10:57.090 --> 00:11:00.930 hopped across the channel, and they they wanted to 172 00:11:00.930 --> 00:11:04.675 make a phone call. So they they were abusing the poor guy in the 173 00:11:04.675 --> 00:11:08.275 ticket office. Eventually, they got a phone card they they purchased the 174 00:11:08.275 --> 00:11:12.050 phone card. They couldn't speak French. They couldn't 175 00:11:12.050 --> 00:11:15.890 speak Dutch or or or Flemish. So eventually, they got their 176 00:11:15.890 --> 00:11:19.574 phone card. They paid for it. They tried to stick it in this 177 00:11:19.574 --> 00:11:23.415 phone. It wouldn't work. Then after a few minutes 178 00:11:23.415 --> 00:11:27.190 of trying, they went back, said, we want our money back and just gave this 179 00:11:27.190 --> 00:11:30.570 guy abuse. And he didn't really speak much English. 180 00:11:30.790 --> 00:11:34.205 They spoke no foreign language at all, and they just got 181 00:11:34.205 --> 00:11:38.045 louder and louder and louder. And this is a little 182 00:11:38.045 --> 00:11:41.885 while ago, but in some cases, that hasn't actually improved that 183 00:11:41.885 --> 00:11:45.720 much. And that's all although it is a stereotype, 184 00:11:46.579 --> 00:11:50.279 it highlights nicely that some people don't even appreciate 185 00:11:51.055 --> 00:11:53.075 the person they're speaking to. 186 00:11:54.654 --> 00:11:58.495 So so, yes, the Briton holiday still does exist, but it's it can be 187 00:11:58.495 --> 00:12:02.279 anything. But you're right. There 188 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:05.880 are some people who don't want to educate 189 00:12:05.880 --> 00:12:09.645 themselves or don't know how to educate themselves to find out about other 190 00:12:09.645 --> 00:12:13.405 people and to often speak through their own privilege or their own 191 00:12:13.405 --> 00:12:17.240 sense of entitlement without truly understanding the that it's been somebody else, 192 00:12:17.240 --> 00:12:20.440 and that that is that is often one of the barriers to inclusion, isn't it? 193 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:24.040 It it it it is. But I I I find sometimes when 194 00:12:24.040 --> 00:12:27.805 you when you I mean, I've the radio show that I I used to be 195 00:12:27.805 --> 00:12:31.185 on is it was an Asian station. So 196 00:12:31.885 --> 00:12:35.680 the potential pitfalls there are unbelievable. The the 197 00:12:35.680 --> 00:12:39.440 the the faux pas you could make. But it was 198 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:43.165 it was really, really interesting because I I like to put humor into 199 00:12:43.165 --> 00:12:46.865 into everything. And I had a conversation in the office. 200 00:12:47.005 --> 00:12:50.579 I said, you don't really hear about many 201 00:12:50.579 --> 00:12:53.000 many sort of Muslim comedians or, 202 00:12:55.380 --> 00:12:59.165 or I don't know what the Muslim style of humor is. And these guys 203 00:12:59.225 --> 00:13:02.985 just fell around laughing, and they they they gave me a whole load 204 00:13:02.985 --> 00:13:06.745 of stuff that would make some of our traditional, should we 205 00:13:06.745 --> 00:13:10.510 say, English comedians blush. This this stuff 206 00:13:10.510 --> 00:13:14.190 was was hardcore, and I would have never found that 207 00:13:14.190 --> 00:13:17.330 out without actually having a conversation with them about it. 208 00:13:18.175 --> 00:13:21.795 But on the other hand, you you when it's, for instance, Ramadan, 209 00:13:22.095 --> 00:13:25.535 you have to be very, very careful about what what you say and 210 00:13:25.535 --> 00:13:29.300 do. But it it it's it's it's also wanting 211 00:13:29.300 --> 00:13:33.060 to ask the questions. I mean, if somebody go if somebody's gay 212 00:13:33.060 --> 00:13:35.560 or trans or whatever, most people just 213 00:13:36.785 --> 00:13:40.465 they feel I don't know whether they feel stupid or what to 214 00:13:40.465 --> 00:13:43.825 ask the questions. What do you ask without offending 215 00:13:43.825 --> 00:13:47.579 someone? And and that's where that's where most 216 00:13:47.579 --> 00:13:51.180 people stop. It's easier to pretend not to know than to ask them 217 00:13:51.259 --> 00:13:55.065 ask the question. Yeah. Fear of getting it wrong is a is a 218 00:13:55.065 --> 00:13:58.745 huge barrier for many people. And 219 00:13:58.745 --> 00:14:02.199 violent get it wrong. People disengage. They walk away. They 220 00:14:02.199 --> 00:14:05.800 exclude. And that exacerbates the problem 221 00:14:05.800 --> 00:14:09.639 because the body language, that nervousness becomes apparent. And I 222 00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:13.265 can I can tell if someone's ignoring me or walking away from me, I think, 223 00:14:13.725 --> 00:14:16.925 what's up with me? And it often it's it's down to the individual not having 224 00:14:16.925 --> 00:14:20.410 those kind of interpersonal skills, the EQ that we talked about. 225 00:14:20.410 --> 00:14:24.170 Yeah. I mean, when when people say people come out with these phrases, 226 00:14:24.170 --> 00:14:27.904 I hate. I won't mention I won't mention any particular groups of 227 00:14:27.904 --> 00:14:31.584 people at all, but they they they you they use the term I hate, and 228 00:14:31.584 --> 00:14:35.220 then it it could be any any group of people. They don't. 229 00:14:35.220 --> 00:14:38.980 They just they well, okay. 1 or 2 people They don't 230 00:14:38.980 --> 00:14:42.820 understand. Yeah. They don't they don't they don't understand. They they haven't got 231 00:14:42.820 --> 00:14:46.515 the tools to cope. They they just that that that's they're 232 00:14:46.515 --> 00:14:47.015 scared. 233 00:14:50.915 --> 00:14:54.570 I mean, I've I've worked all over the world in my in my thirties. I 234 00:14:54.570 --> 00:14:58.410 worked for an international private bank, and I I had the the good fortune of 235 00:14:58.410 --> 00:15:02.185 being able to fly club class to some great 236 00:15:02.185 --> 00:15:06.025 destinations and spend a lot of time in those cultures both 237 00:15:06.025 --> 00:15:09.830 in the office and also being taken out in the evenings, just 238 00:15:09.830 --> 00:15:13.210 to feel the culture. But also I was also a member of a club 239 00:15:13.670 --> 00:15:17.185 which had worldwide presence and I spent a lot of time traveling over Europe, 240 00:15:17.505 --> 00:15:21.265 staying in people's homes, home hosted and I've travelled 241 00:15:21.265 --> 00:15:25.025 throughout the UK living in people's homes and and meeting their families. So I think 242 00:15:25.025 --> 00:15:28.850 once you expose yourself to that level of difference, that level of 243 00:15:28.850 --> 00:15:32.550 randomness from different cultures, you get the idea that people are just people, 244 00:15:32.930 --> 00:15:36.425 they they wanna get up in the morning, have a great day and the same 245 00:15:36.425 --> 00:15:39.645 as you do, they're not they're not being any more 246 00:15:40.505 --> 00:15:43.065 than they are in their own culture and I I think we all forget that 247 00:15:43.065 --> 00:15:46.540 we we create these stereotypes these people who are from different countries, the 248 00:15:46.540 --> 00:15:50.380 media, the press, all this kind of the government, we kind 249 00:15:50.380 --> 00:15:54.175 of demonise yeah, anyone from across the Joanne. We still 250 00:15:54.175 --> 00:15:58.015 hold 2nd World War biases 251 00:15:58.015 --> 00:16:00.755 and tropes around the French, the Germans, the Italians, 252 00:16:01.730 --> 00:16:05.089 anyone who wasn't our ally. We we have all these jokes 253 00:16:05.089 --> 00:16:08.769 and those are almost invading our thinking these 254 00:16:08.769 --> 00:16:12.515 days. We we we get very clouded by them, don't we? Well, yes. We 255 00:16:12.515 --> 00:16:15.635 are. I mean, the thing about some some of the humor and the stereotypes from 256 00:16:15.635 --> 00:16:19.335 the so called World War, they're they're quite easy to pick up on. 257 00:16:20.140 --> 00:16:23.600 And I think some of them are still are still valid, but 258 00:16:24.060 --> 00:16:27.820 you need to know when when you can use them and when and 259 00:16:27.820 --> 00:16:31.305 when not to. It's very similar 260 00:16:31.305 --> 00:16:34.685 to I mean, I I Joanne remember being in Cardiff 261 00:16:35.465 --> 00:16:39.240 and being being very careful of insulting, 262 00:16:40.500 --> 00:16:44.020 insulting black people, for for various 263 00:16:44.020 --> 00:16:47.505 reasons. And then standing looking 264 00:16:47.725 --> 00:16:50.945 completely in awe at at 2 people 265 00:16:51.085 --> 00:16:54.785 having well, Jo. More than 2 people having a screaming 266 00:16:54.925 --> 00:16:58.689 match in the middle of Cardiff. All of them all of them Asian, 267 00:16:59.069 --> 00:17:02.910 all calling themselves things that we would not be allowed to repeat 268 00:17:02.910 --> 00:17:06.665 in public. You think, well, what do 269 00:17:06.665 --> 00:17:10.505 I do here? What what what what's acceptable and what isn't? And it 270 00:17:10.505 --> 00:17:14.040 sort of it it sort of comes around to that, 271 00:17:15.380 --> 00:17:19.000 at what point can you, I would say, laugh at? 272 00:17:19.244 --> 00:17:22.785 Yeah. Maybe laugh at. At what point can you laugh at comment 273 00:17:22.845 --> 00:17:26.605 on other people or yourself without it causing offense 274 00:17:26.605 --> 00:17:30.390 to anybody? At what point can you do that? I mean, another 275 00:17:30.390 --> 00:17:33.270 example was when we when when we we used to live down in the West 276 00:17:33.270 --> 00:17:37.115 Country, and Bristol City Council were very, at the time, I guess, people called 277 00:17:37.115 --> 00:17:40.895 it political correct politically correct. And I can remember 278 00:17:40.955 --> 00:17:44.710 2 ladies 2 colored ladies. 1 one was one 279 00:17:44.710 --> 00:17:48.070 was Afro Caribbean. I think the other one might have 280 00:17:48.070 --> 00:17:51.715 been of African descent. But they had a 281 00:17:51.715 --> 00:17:55.335 slanging match in the council chamber. One called the other 282 00:17:55.715 --> 00:17:59.235 something very, you know, not very nice at 283 00:17:59.235 --> 00:18:02.950 all. And both of them got taken to court. You know, they 284 00:18:02.950 --> 00:18:05.610 were both colored. They were both insulting each other. 285 00:18:06.870 --> 00:18:10.645 And I've and that wouldn't have happened if both necessarily had been wiped. 286 00:18:11.745 --> 00:18:15.265 And you could excuse you could excuse an onlooker for being 287 00:18:15.265 --> 00:18:19.080 confused. Let me just pick you up in a bit of language there. 288 00:18:19.080 --> 00:18:22.700 You used a you used a phrase there that was probably you should avoid. 289 00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:26.765 People are black, they're brown, or people of color. You should not 290 00:18:27.065 --> 00:18:30.905 use the old language in the way you did. So just just for 291 00:18:30.905 --> 00:18:34.710 anyone listening, it's yeah. Black is the 292 00:18:34.710 --> 00:18:38.150 correct term when we're talking about people who are black or or 293 00:18:38.150 --> 00:18:41.825 brown or people of color. Jo, yeah, just we we just need to 294 00:18:41.825 --> 00:18:45.025 be careful that we we do understand that we have to update our language if 295 00:18:45.025 --> 00:18:48.625 you like because it it does evolve and change over time. Just like It does. 296 00:18:48.625 --> 00:18:51.990 It does. It does. And, obviously, obviously, my needs are a little 297 00:18:51.990 --> 00:18:55.750 updating. Yeah. But but that's why we're here to educate as well. Indeed. 298 00:18:55.750 --> 00:18:59.294 But that but but, again, that that that that is the problem with something that's 299 00:18:59.294 --> 00:19:03.134 evolving all the time. If, I mean, if, I 300 00:19:03.134 --> 00:19:06.815 don't know, technology evolves all the time, people people know how 301 00:19:06.815 --> 00:19:10.559 to update their technology or get to grips with it 302 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:14.400 or, fashion or anything like that. 303 00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:17.865 But there are some things that don't tend to get 304 00:19:17.865 --> 00:19:21.225 updated unless you're exposed to them 305 00:19:21.225 --> 00:19:24.985 or it's foisted upon you. And I guess in a way, what you 306 00:19:24.985 --> 00:19:28.620 want to stop is the trying to impose it upon people because 307 00:19:28.620 --> 00:19:31.440 it's it it doesn't stick very well. 308 00:19:32.779 --> 00:19:36.425 No. No. I don't think it's actually about imposing. It's trying to 309 00:19:36.425 --> 00:19:40.265 enlighten people to say this this turn of phrase, 310 00:19:40.265 --> 00:19:43.760 this language, this word, or this thing 311 00:19:43.820 --> 00:19:47.260 is problematic for some people. Some people are not happy with that 312 00:19:47.260 --> 00:19:50.940 language and you go okay, I get that some 313 00:19:50.940 --> 00:19:54.555 people are upset by that so it costs me nothing to you to to 314 00:19:54.555 --> 00:19:58.315 recognize that and and amend my language. So what we often find 315 00:19:58.315 --> 00:20:02.100 is people stick for their language Jo well, I've been I've been calling people 316 00:20:02.100 --> 00:20:05.620 this for for 30, 40, 50 years ever since I can remember and you're telling 317 00:20:05.620 --> 00:20:09.325 me I have to change, well, that's just so difficult and that often that reflects 318 00:20:09.325 --> 00:20:13.085 privilege, it always like it reflects that people don't have 319 00:20:13.085 --> 00:20:16.445 that sort of cultural sensitivity to go 'actually it cost me 320 00:20:16.445 --> 00:20:19.970 nothing, fine now you've told me I'll remember that 321 00:20:20.144 --> 00:20:23.730 Joanne that's kind of the approach that people are saying not to create 322 00:20:23.730 --> 00:20:27.365 rules but just to almost say this is how I feel when you say 323 00:20:27.365 --> 00:20:31.045 that and this is how I'd like you to you to to be concerned and 324 00:20:31.045 --> 00:20:34.885 that that's simply how we just adapt language and and and persuade 325 00:20:34.885 --> 00:20:38.640 people rather than tell them. Just point out where 326 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:42.480 language could improve or could be used differently. Indeed. Look. There 327 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:46.095 there there's one there's there's a there's few areas, though, that are a bit 328 00:20:47.434 --> 00:20:51.135 awkward where you've got potentially different 329 00:20:52.170 --> 00:20:55.929 different sets of language, if you like, for if you're whether 330 00:20:55.929 --> 00:20:59.535 you're dealing with, groups of people. I 331 00:20:59.535 --> 00:21:03.055 mean, women tends to be an example. There are a lot of lot of 332 00:21:03.055 --> 00:21:06.815 people lots of women who will take exception of being 333 00:21:06.815 --> 00:21:08.435 called I don't know. 334 00:21:10.970 --> 00:21:12.990 Love. Funny. Love. Chef. Yeah. 335 00:21:14.970 --> 00:21:18.414 But, actually, one of the things I had to get used to is everyone in 336 00:21:18.414 --> 00:21:22.255 Yorkshire, whether male or female, gets called love. It's just the way 337 00:21:22.255 --> 00:21:26.014 it is. But, yeah, I've seen a I've seen a lot 338 00:21:26.014 --> 00:21:29.220 of discussion about being called, say, chaps. 339 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:33.760 Some people don't I don't want don't wanna be that. And then you'll get 1 340 00:21:33.760 --> 00:21:37.385 one or 2 or maybe more saying, well, actually, I don't mind 341 00:21:37.385 --> 00:21:41.145 that. It it it it it can 342 00:21:41.145 --> 00:21:44.845 it can be difficult. You have to be you do have to be careful. 343 00:21:45.820 --> 00:21:49.039 And you you could actually go so far one way that 344 00:21:49.419 --> 00:21:53.179 language gets completely sanitized. So I guess what I guess what 345 00:21:53.179 --> 00:21:57.005 we need to do is have some some colorful but not offensive language, 346 00:21:57.065 --> 00:22:00.825 which is an interesting challenge for other I mean, 347 00:22:00.825 --> 00:22:04.265 that's that's that's that's that's the trouble. When people talk about dumbing down, they're not 348 00:22:04.265 --> 00:22:07.630 so much dumbing down. It's it's just making everything completely bland. 349 00:22:09.930 --> 00:22:13.585 But it doesn't have to be. I mean, I I'm guarded 350 00:22:13.585 --> 00:22:17.105 about the language I use and I hang out with a lot of people who 351 00:22:17.105 --> 00:22:19.905 are also guarded about the language Joanne I don't think we dumb down anything. I 352 00:22:19.905 --> 00:22:23.669 think we still have fun, we laugh, we still joke about things. We 353 00:22:23.669 --> 00:22:27.429 just don't tend to joke about things that have a 354 00:22:27.429 --> 00:22:30.815 person's misfortune at the end of it. We talk about other other 355 00:22:30.855 --> 00:22:34.395 I other ironic scenarios. Yeah. In in 356 00:22:35.095 --> 00:22:38.530 that that's fair enough. But a lot of those people, I won't say all of 357 00:22:38.530 --> 00:22:41.170 them because I don't know who you hang out with, but a lot a lot 358 00:22:41.170 --> 00:22:44.770 of people I'm 359 00:22:44.770 --> 00:22:48.245 sure. What was I I've lost my train of thought train of thought there. Yeah. 360 00:22:48.245 --> 00:22:51.865 If if if you hang around or you've got a 361 00:22:52.885 --> 00:22:56.485 a group that that you do hang around with, a close group of friends, wider 362 00:22:56.485 --> 00:23:00.330 group of friends, or even just a, I don't know, networking club 363 00:23:00.330 --> 00:23:04.010 that you belong to, people you see regularly, it's a lot easier to 364 00:23:04.010 --> 00:23:07.715 do that with that with than with 365 00:23:07.715 --> 00:23:11.075 people you don't see regularly or some people who 366 00:23:11.075 --> 00:23:14.640 will take offense at something if you've 367 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:16.580 maybe only met them for the first time. 368 00:23:18.320 --> 00:23:21.679 Yes. You maybe should be guarded about the language you use so that 369 00:23:21.679 --> 00:23:25.375 nobody could take offense, But but that that's 370 00:23:25.375 --> 00:23:29.215 that's that's the problem I I think I particularly have had 371 00:23:29.215 --> 00:23:32.810 in the past. I don't think I have it now, hopefully, but that is the 372 00:23:32.810 --> 00:23:36.510 problem that I've had in the past. The first time you come up you 373 00:23:36.570 --> 00:23:40.110 you interact with somebody, you know nothing about them. 374 00:23:40.385 --> 00:23:43.985 So all the only thing you can do is either be 375 00:23:43.985 --> 00:23:47.025 almost nothing or you 376 00:23:47.850 --> 00:23:51.450 we do what most of us do. We we have these, unconscious 377 00:23:51.450 --> 00:23:54.350 biases, these these stereotypes, and 378 00:23:54.809 --> 00:23:58.635 they they kick in because if 379 00:23:58.635 --> 00:24:02.175 you wanted to read all of the cues that somebody's giving off, 380 00:24:02.955 --> 00:24:06.630 or little things they're telling you, body language and all the rest of it, you 381 00:24:06.630 --> 00:24:10.390 could use so much brainpower that you probably can't even have a 382 00:24:10.390 --> 00:24:11.530 conversation. So 383 00:24:16.174 --> 00:24:19.615 It takes practice. I think I think the the key thing is, you know, we 384 00:24:19.615 --> 00:24:23.455 started off by saying that learning to 385 00:24:23.455 --> 00:24:27.120 learn, learning to converse, learning to think this way. So 386 00:24:27.340 --> 00:24:31.100 I think people can retrain the way they think, they can retrain the 387 00:24:31.100 --> 00:24:34.945 way they talk, and they can change the way they interact with 388 00:24:34.945 --> 00:24:38.705 the world. It just takes practice and I look back at 389 00:24:38.705 --> 00:24:42.500 my life and 5, 10 390 00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:46.260 years ago, my my language was completely different 391 00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:50.235 in terms of colour and and sensitivity. So I think I think you can 392 00:24:50.235 --> 00:24:53.595 you can learn but I don't think we should shy away 393 00:24:53.595 --> 00:24:57.280 from creating 394 00:24:57.280 --> 00:25:01.040 learning learning opportunities and as I 395 00:25:01.040 --> 00:25:04.740 say I network, I go out, I meet people all over the world 396 00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:08.315 all over the UK, I speak at conferences in the same way you 397 00:25:08.315 --> 00:25:11.855 do and I don't feel that I'm 398 00:25:13.409 --> 00:25:17.010 constrained in my humor or my or my 399 00:25:17.169 --> 00:25:20.735 the way I can talk to people or or interact with people. So, yeah, I 400 00:25:20.735 --> 00:25:24.175 I think I think you can if if you if you if you learn how 401 00:25:24.175 --> 00:25:26.575