WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.839 --> 00:00:05.520 Hello everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for the 2 00:00:05.520 --> 00:00:09.335 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I'll be interviewing a 3 00:00:09.335 --> 00:00:12.934 number of amazing people and simply having a conversation about the 4 00:00:12.934 --> 00:00:16.540 subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the 5 00:00:16.540 --> 00:00:20.300 world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to 6 00:00:20.300 --> 00:00:23.735 join me in the future, then please drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 7 00:00:26.995 --> 00:00:30.590 That's S-E-E Change Happen dot Co dot 8 00:00:30.591 --> 00:00:34.290 uk. You can catch up with all the previous shows on Itunes, 9 00:00:34.590 --> 00:00:38.350 Spotify, and the usual places. So plug in your 10 00:00:38.350 --> 00:00:42.195 headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. 11 00:00:43.055 --> 00:00:46.835 Today is episode 25 with the title 12 00:00:47.295 --> 00:00:50.500 'Being Visible, Listened to and Respected'. 13 00:00:51.440 --> 00:00:55.200 And I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Susan 14 00:00:55.200 --> 00:00:58.954 Heaton-Wright. Susan describes herself as someone who 15 00:00:58.954 --> 00:01:02.254 empowers individuals and teams to make an impact 16 00:01:02.635 --> 00:01:06.189 in business conversations. When I asked Susan to 17 00:01:06.189 --> 00:01:08.930 describe her superpower, she said, empathy. 18 00:01:10.110 --> 00:01:13.890 She is able to understand emotions, perspectives, and opinions 19 00:01:14.405 --> 00:01:18.244 from different viewpoints. Hello, Susan. Welcome to 20 00:01:18.244 --> 00:01:21.704 the show. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. 21 00:01:23.149 --> 00:01:25.950 It's a pleasure. I mean, we've been talking about this for a few months now, 22 00:01:25.950 --> 00:01:29.649 and I'm glad we finally got together to do this. Yay. It's great. 23 00:01:29.965 --> 00:01:33.345 So who who is Susan? Tell me what you mean by being visible, 24 00:01:33.725 --> 00:01:37.220 listened to, and respected. What does that look and feel like to you? Do you 25 00:01:37.220 --> 00:01:41.060 know there's a part of me that feels, oh my goodness. I'm blowing 26 00:01:41.060 --> 00:01:44.500 my trumpet. I'm showing off. And that's 27 00:01:44.500 --> 00:01:48.125 my sort of introvert state and the type of 28 00:01:48.125 --> 00:01:51.585 person that I was brought up to be. Somebody that was 29 00:01:51.805 --> 00:01:55.630 quiet and in the background and very, very humble. 30 00:01:56.330 --> 00:02:00.090 And I am aware through my own life and 31 00:02:00.090 --> 00:02:03.790 also with a number of clients that I now work with 32 00:02:04.064 --> 00:02:07.664 that sometimes they are underestimated and they're 33 00:02:07.664 --> 00:02:11.285 not as visible as they can be. And perhaps 34 00:02:11.584 --> 00:02:14.830 they miss out on some great opportunities 35 00:02:15.610 --> 00:02:18.190 or are not promoted when they ought to be. 36 00:02:19.850 --> 00:02:23.005 For for my perspective, when I was a schoolgirl, 37 00:02:24.185 --> 00:02:27.785 I shall admit that I was very much underestimated. I 38 00:02:27.785 --> 00:02:30.925 tell the story that when I was 39 00:02:31.230 --> 00:02:34.370 16, 17, when everyone was applying to university, 40 00:02:35.070 --> 00:02:38.745 my school would not give me an application 41 00:02:38.965 --> 00:02:42.805 form for university because they did not feel that 42 00:02:42.805 --> 00:02:46.520 it was worth my while. I wasn't bright enough. Yet I have 43 00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:50.140 the exam results to prove that, but there was a question 44 00:02:50.200 --> 00:02:53.959 mark attached to that. What I happened to do 45 00:02:53.959 --> 00:02:57.085 was to find an application for my last headmistress 46 00:02:57.945 --> 00:03:01.785 to complete the the application for me, and I had 47 00:03:01.785 --> 00:03:05.620 ended up at a top university. But 48 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:09.460 I recognize that because of the my demeanor 49 00:03:09.760 --> 00:03:13.465 and the way I was and why I was quiet, that I was 50 00:03:13.465 --> 00:03:17.165 being underestimated. And so there was that question mark 51 00:03:17.545 --> 00:03:20.365 that perhaps somebody that was a little bit more confident 52 00:03:21.350 --> 00:03:24.970 would that the question mark wouldn't be there for the teachers. 53 00:03:25.830 --> 00:03:29.430 Have you found that at all? Yeah. That's that's interesting. I'm I'm I'm just 54 00:03:29.430 --> 00:03:32.955 thinking back to my own childhood, and I'm in my mid-50s 55 00:03:33.255 --> 00:03:37.015 and just kind of the culture of the time was very much I remember my 56 00:03:37.015 --> 00:03:40.330 parents saying to me don't speak unless you're spoken to, 57 00:03:41.750 --> 00:03:45.270 if you ask you don't get. So it's very much a culture of 58 00:03:45.270 --> 00:03:48.974 humbleness and I would almost say that being 59 00:03:48.974 --> 00:03:52.755 humble, being quiet, being thoughtful was 60 00:03:52.815 --> 00:03:56.334 a valued way of being a child in those days. If you 61 00:03:56.334 --> 00:03:59.510 weren't you were kind of shouted down or or 62 00:04:00.370 --> 00:04:03.970 punished or or told off for being too noisy or 63 00:04:03.970 --> 00:04:06.875 being too out there. So I think maybe 64 00:04:08.055 --> 00:04:11.435 socialization that we've we've we've brought up with 65 00:04:11.735 --> 00:04:15.060 going back generations is having a real impact on us, isn't it? 66 00:04:15.540 --> 00:04:18.980 I think it is. And and, certainly, that 67 00:04:18.980 --> 00:04:22.695 idea that if you work hard, you will 68 00:04:22.695 --> 00:04:26.235 be rewarded. And we know that in corporate 69 00:04:26.375 --> 00:04:29.975 culture, that it's not necessarily those 70 00:04:29.975 --> 00:04:33.460 people that work very, very hard and get the best results 71 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:37.920 that are rewarded. And this plays 72 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:40.500 into one of my pet subjects around meritocracy. 73 00:04:41.295 --> 00:04:45.055 Meritocracy is it often is the people who are visible, the people who are 74 00:04:45.055 --> 00:04:48.575 extrovert, the people who are grabbing that are seen 75 00:04:48.575 --> 00:04:49.475 as more 76 00:04:52.850 --> 00:04:55.590 just more capable. Yes. We often 77 00:04:56.210 --> 00:05:00.014 we people I mean, you know, and I know it from experience that just 78 00:05:00.014 --> 00:05:02.974 because you're loud doesn't mean to say you're any better, it just means to say 79 00:05:02.974 --> 00:05:06.699 you're loud. It doesn't mean you're quiet. You're off and you're in 80 00:05:06.699 --> 00:05:10.219 the pushover very valid is we don't talk and amplify ourselves 81 00:05:10.219 --> 00:05:14.035 enough, people don't see us. We've got to be our, we've got 82 00:05:14.035 --> 00:05:17.395 to learn to be our own advocate sometimes, haven't 83 00:05:17.395 --> 00:05:21.155 we? I think Jo, and also we need to 84 00:05:21.155 --> 00:05:24.630 demonstrate how well we're doing things. So 85 00:05:24.850 --> 00:05:28.290 there we know that there are some people that they will blow their 86 00:05:28.290 --> 00:05:32.034 trumpet if they, I don't know, wipe their nose 87 00:05:32.034 --> 00:05:35.715 or something teeny weeny like that. Whereas you and 88 00:05:35.715 --> 00:05:38.830 I, with the way that we were brought up, we would probably think, 89 00:05:39.289 --> 00:05:42.889 well, you you know, that that's part of living, 90 00:05:42.889 --> 00:05:46.729 isn't it? I don't need to, need to show off 91 00:05:46.729 --> 00:05:50.565 about that. But unfortunately, when it 92 00:05:50.565 --> 00:05:54.085 comes to decision making, it can be 93 00:05:54.085 --> 00:05:57.900 those people that are remembered that have made the 94 00:05:57.900 --> 00:06:01.039 effort to blow their trumpet and expose 95 00:06:01.819 --> 00:06:05.615 their merits. Yeah. And and certainly, I 96 00:06:05.615 --> 00:06:09.294 mean, I I'm a small business owner. I'm a consultant practitioner, similar 97 00:06:09.294 --> 00:06:12.710 way you are. So if I don't blow my trumpet nobody else is going to 98 00:06:12.710 --> 00:06:16.250 blow it for me. And we've had 99 00:06:16.550 --> 00:06:20.195 to maybe escape our programming and 100 00:06:20.195 --> 00:06:23.795 talk about personal brand, talk about social selling, talk about 101 00:06:23.795 --> 00:06:27.495 networking and being being our business and being visible out there, 102 00:06:27.689 --> 00:06:30.990 but I often find that that doesn't always come natural to me and I 103 00:06:31.930 --> 00:06:35.655 I always shy away when people describe me or they they read out my 104 00:06:35.655 --> 00:06:39.495 bio or they've written something about it and I think, oh, that's a that's a 105 00:06:39.495 --> 00:06:42.935 bit kind of, it's lovely what you're saying, but I'm not sure I'm 106 00:06:42.935 --> 00:06:46.760 comfortable being described as a world expert or anything. It's kind 107 00:06:46.760 --> 00:06:50.440 of and yet there are people out there that rise to that that 108 00:06:50.440 --> 00:06:54.025 that language and they are, oh, yes, I'm a world expert and they declare themselves 109 00:06:54.025 --> 00:06:57.385 and Yes. Yeah. I I get a bit embarrassed almost 110 00:06:57.385 --> 00:07:00.605 because I don't want to be putting myself 111 00:07:01.060 --> 00:07:03.780 I want I want to have my personal Joanne, but I don't necessarily wanna put 112 00:07:03.780 --> 00:07:07.460 myself right up there on the on the pedestal and say I'm best or 113 00:07:07.460 --> 00:07:11.134 anything like this. Do you think that there's something very English about 114 00:07:11.134 --> 00:07:14.735 this? We talk about the the tall poppy syndrome, 115 00:07:14.735 --> 00:07:18.340 that somebody will see somebody growing up and 116 00:07:18.340 --> 00:07:21.720 being big and then cut them down, particularly the media. 117 00:07:23.075 --> 00:07:26.375 Yes. I mean, for sure, we we see that all the time. And there's, 118 00:07:27.155 --> 00:07:30.775 I saw a speaker, who's written a book, a lady called Margaret Hefferman, 119 00:07:31.210 --> 00:07:35.050 and she she wrote the book and she talks about the super chicken. And that's 120 00:07:35.050 --> 00:07:38.889 something, you know, often where women do it to each other. They peck 121 00:07:38.889 --> 00:07:42.665 at each other And the super chicken is the big chicken, the bully chicken 122 00:07:42.665 --> 00:07:45.865 that pecks all the other women and all the other chickens and puts them down. 123 00:07:45.865 --> 00:07:49.030 And I think sometimes we don't like successes, 124 00:07:49.650 --> 00:07:52.850 do we, we want to and the media does it but we look at Instagram, 125 00:07:52.850 --> 00:07:56.585 we look at telly, we're the first to judge, don't we judge? We look at, 126 00:07:56.585 --> 00:08:00.264 oh, don't like that dress or those shoes or Jo, no hair style. And 127 00:08:00.264 --> 00:08:03.850 even when we say, oh, you look lovely, what we really mean is buy wouldn't 128 00:08:03.850 --> 00:08:07.530 wear it. Yes. I mean, you I don't know if you know that 129 00:08:07.530 --> 00:08:10.910 part of my background is that I used to be a singer. 130 00:08:11.555 --> 00:08:15.315 And certainly, if you would go to other concerts 131 00:08:15.315 --> 00:08:18.770 or events, there would be a certain culture around 132 00:08:18.770 --> 00:08:22.550 obviously not saying nasty things. But you knew 133 00:08:23.169 --> 00:08:26.985 if somebody said, well, you know, the flat the floral decorations 134 00:08:27.445 --> 00:08:31.045 in the venue were lovely, you knew that it wasn't very 135 00:08:31.045 --> 00:08:34.579 good. Yes. You draw attention to the 136 00:08:34.579 --> 00:08:36.919 thing that you find most 137 00:08:38.179 --> 00:08:41.674 distracting or or whatever you're thinking about and then put a positive spin on it, 138 00:08:41.674 --> 00:08:45.055 don't you? Oh, I love I love your shoes. Really? 139 00:08:45.195 --> 00:08:48.950 Yeah. It it's really interesting about what I 140 00:08:48.950 --> 00:08:51.770 call the green eyed monster, and, 141 00:08:52.790 --> 00:08:55.530 us going on to Instagram or Facebook, 142 00:08:56.285 --> 00:09:00.065 occasionally that you can you're aware of something triggering 143 00:09:00.125 --> 00:09:03.645 off and you're thinking, oh, why is that not me? Why are they 144 00:09:03.645 --> 00:09:07.390 getting that work? And I have consciously 145 00:09:07.770 --> 00:09:11.450 thought of when I feel that to just take a deep 146 00:09:11.450 --> 00:09:15.204 breath and then say well done, even if I don't say it to 147 00:09:15.204 --> 00:09:18.725 the individual, but it to myself, I 148 00:09:18.725 --> 00:09:22.560 say well done to that person, rather than letting it 149 00:09:22.560 --> 00:09:26.240 eat me inside, which could be the the 150 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:29.875 normal thing to do. Do you do 151 00:09:29.875 --> 00:09:32.675 that? Yeah. That yeah. That that's that's that's so true. 152 00:09:34.675 --> 00:09:38.300 I I like to say thank you to people. I like to make sure that 153 00:09:38.300 --> 00:09:41.899 people know that I'm grateful. But in the same way, I want it to 154 00:09:41.899 --> 00:09:45.725 be authentic and and meaningful. So I'm not one 155 00:09:45.725 --> 00:09:49.565 to go over the top, I'm more one to give a quiet 'thanks I 156 00:09:49.565 --> 00:09:52.945 really appreciate that' rather than 'wow you're amazing' and 157 00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:56.959 huge, huge great trumpet. Jo, yeah, I 158 00:09:56.959 --> 00:10:00.560 suppose I I tend to praise in the way I like to be 159 00:10:00.560 --> 00:10:04.295 praised meaningful, understated, but very 160 00:10:04.295 --> 00:10:07.975 personally, almost like find the one thing that I think they'd be 161 00:10:07.975 --> 00:10:11.610 most they'd be most pleased with that I've identified, rather 162 00:10:11.610 --> 00:10:14.910 than giving us big, kind of flowery 163 00:10:16.010 --> 00:10:19.555 lots of superlatives going on, I'd rather say I love to 164 00:10:19.555 --> 00:10:23.315 talk and when you said this that really resonated. That that for me is 165 00:10:23.315 --> 00:10:26.740 very specific and it's a great great direct feedback rather than 166 00:10:26.899 --> 00:10:30.420 you're wonderful and amazing and, ah, it's awesome. That means 167 00:10:30.420 --> 00:10:34.100 nothing to me. But do you think that depends on the person it 168 00:10:34.100 --> 00:10:36.774 is? Because somebody that's very, you know, out 169 00:10:37.714 --> 00:10:40.935 there, that sort of acclaim, oh, we were wonderful, 170 00:10:41.635 --> 00:10:44.774 might be exactly what fires them up. 171 00:10:45.380 --> 00:10:48.360 Oh, for sure. I I I'm I'm I'm the first one to 172 00:10:48.980 --> 00:10:52.755 allow or or want or or everyone to be themselves. I wouldn't want to 173 00:10:52.755 --> 00:10:56.515 judge anybody or anyone in their own box if that's the way they 174 00:10:56.515 --> 00:11:00.195 want to express that's fine. It I suppose what resonates for 175 00:11:00.195 --> 00:11:04.029 me is where it is more precise, more more considered, 176 00:11:05.130 --> 00:11:08.730 and more thought about and I'm not I'm not judging someone who does the the 177 00:11:08.730 --> 00:11:12.355 big flowery articles stuff and saying they haven't thought about it 178 00:11:12.814 --> 00:11:15.855 but I often think of that as kind of just this this big sort of 179 00:11:15.855 --> 00:11:19.589 like big lovey huggy kissy type type of thing 180 00:11:19.589 --> 00:11:23.350 rather than being a rather being as sincere, but that that's just the way I 181 00:11:23.350 --> 00:11:26.905 like feedback. They may well be being sincere, and that's how they do it. 182 00:11:26.905 --> 00:11:30.185 So I would never I would never shy away from it. I would just say, 183 00:11:30.185 --> 00:11:33.405 oh, thank you. You oh, you're wonderful. Thank you for saying that. Yes. 184 00:11:35.010 --> 00:11:37.570 But I'm not, I mean in the same way, I'm not I'm not a great 185 00:11:37.570 --> 00:11:41.330 fan of award ceremonies and I've been 186 00:11:41.330 --> 00:11:45.135 nominated for a few awards and I'm a 187 00:11:45.135 --> 00:11:48.975 bit cynical because often the the awards ceremony are about selling tickets 188 00:11:48.975 --> 00:11:52.770 to the award event. I know. Or promoting someone's brand Yeah. 189 00:11:52.770 --> 00:11:56.370 And they want everyone, they want to nominate the entire world, so the entire 190 00:11:56.370 --> 00:11:59.570 world talks about it for 6 months while they're being nominated, then they talk about 191 00:11:59.570 --> 00:12:03.194 the shortlist. So I'm very cynical about it and I I have got nominated for 192 00:12:03.194 --> 00:12:07.035 a few. And I did partake in kind of the early publicity and 193 00:12:07.035 --> 00:12:10.630 then I wrote to the award giver and said, look, I really appreciate the 194 00:12:10.630 --> 00:12:14.390 nomination, but I'd like to withdraw. It's not me. I don't want 195 00:12:14.390 --> 00:12:17.715 to be it's I I fully respect for those in the suit, but I'd rather 196 00:12:17.715 --> 00:12:21.555 be understated than under the radar. I do my personal Joanne in 197 00:12:21.555 --> 00:12:25.395 other ways. And it was almost like I couldn't see my back going, oh, 198 00:12:25.395 --> 00:12:29.089 that's a surprise. Okay, if you say so. No one's ever done 199 00:12:29.089 --> 00:12:32.930 that before. But, yeah, I I don't 200 00:12:32.930 --> 00:12:36.675 need a medal, but I I do. I I 201 00:12:36.675 --> 00:12:40.435 I, yeah, I I I amplify and and shine my light in different 202 00:12:40.435 --> 00:12:44.090 ways. Yeah. Ways I feel more comfortable with. Do you know what? One of the 203 00:12:44.090 --> 00:12:47.130 things that I pledged to do there are a few things I pledged to do 204 00:12:47.130 --> 00:12:50.910 to lift other people up and to support other people, 205 00:12:51.335 --> 00:12:55.035 And that is to nominate 3 women for business 206 00:12:55.095 --> 00:12:58.930 awards every year. Yes. I've 207 00:12:58.930 --> 00:13:02.770 done my 3 this year. One of them wasn't successful. I'm still waiting for 208 00:13:02.770 --> 00:13:05.270 the other 2 to see if they're shortlisted. 209 00:13:06.210 --> 00:13:09.855 But, certainly, that that brings real 210 00:13:09.855 --> 00:13:13.694 joy to other people. And, it 211 00:13:13.694 --> 00:13:17.110 just it is I feel, a way that I feel 212 00:13:17.110 --> 00:13:18.650 comfortable about, 213 00:13:20.550 --> 00:13:24.334 supporting other people and putting the spotlight on 214 00:13:24.334 --> 00:13:28.095 them? Yeah. I think a lot 215 00:13:28.095 --> 00:13:31.610 of it is Joanne to my own personal bias. Yeah. About not valuing 216 00:13:32.070 --> 00:13:35.510 that myself in that way. Yeah. Or the embarrassment or 217 00:13:35.510 --> 00:13:39.355 the uncomfortableness of of being recognized for 218 00:13:39.355 --> 00:13:42.795 that and me thinking well, hang on a minute, I know I've done some good 219 00:13:42.795 --> 00:13:46.395 stuff, but surely there are better people, you know, my business decision will kick 220 00:13:46.395 --> 00:13:50.010 in and thinking well how can I be 221 00:13:50.010 --> 00:13:53.550 business startup of the year in Portsmouth? It's just it's like 222 00:13:55.285 --> 00:13:58.965 what you're saying is, I'm in the 5 people we're looking 223 00:13:58.965 --> 00:14:02.245 at, you are the winner of the 5 people we've looked at. There's a 1000 224 00:14:02.245 --> 00:14:05.560 people we haven't looked at. It just happens you have you you you're in the 225 00:14:05.560 --> 00:14:09.019 right queue at the right time. That's why I sometimes find 226 00:14:09.320 --> 00:14:12.680 a bit cynical about some of these awards ceremonies, it's who's nominated you, 227 00:14:12.680 --> 00:14:16.395 who are are you really the winner or are you 228 00:14:16.395 --> 00:14:19.295 just the winner of the people in the room? Yes. 229 00:14:20.235 --> 00:14:23.730 But that's right then. But I I accept they could. I I say make people 230 00:14:23.730 --> 00:14:26.370 feel good, it has people to shout about their business and promote, I'm I'm not 231 00:14:26.370 --> 00:14:29.485 all in favor, but, yeah, I'm not I'm not poo pooing them, I just I, 232 00:14:29.485 --> 00:14:33.245 I get very cynical personally about them. You know, in my 233 00:14:33.245 --> 00:14:37.085 case, I'm supporting someone else, and even if they 234 00:14:37.085 --> 00:14:40.760 don't get through, they know that I have given 235 00:14:40.760 --> 00:14:43.660 some of my time to write that application. 236 00:14:45.775 --> 00:14:49.375 Yeah. I'm I'd say I'm I'm completely with with other 237 00:14:49.375 --> 00:14:53.135 people enjoying them and and volunteering. And one thing strange 238 00:14:53.135 --> 00:14:56.750 happened to me this year was actually people started asking 239 00:14:56.750 --> 00:15:00.110 me to be a judge on award ceremonies. So I thought, 240 00:15:00.110 --> 00:15:03.925 'mhmm, I've gone from being a candidate to now being a judge, does 241 00:15:03.925 --> 00:15:05.384 that mean I've skipped over, 242 00:15:07.605 --> 00:15:11.444 and gone to a new level where people are now seeing 243 00:15:11.444 --> 00:15:15.190 me as an authority whereas before they were seeing me as an aspiring. Now now 244 00:15:15.190 --> 00:15:18.710 I'm judging. So I I just try to work out if that was an 245 00:15:18.710 --> 00:15:22.515 insult or or or or a, congratulations. I suddenly 246 00:15:22.515 --> 00:15:25.555 thought, hang on a minute. I wanted to be I would have been nominated for 247 00:15:25.555 --> 00:15:28.135 that award, but now I'm judging it. Okay. Fair enough. 248 00:15:30.010 --> 00:15:33.610 And 2 things on that. Are they expecting you to pay for the 249 00:15:33.610 --> 00:15:37.390 privilege? Because some They would. Yeah. Some of the odds 250 00:15:37.845 --> 00:15:41.605 do, which I think is incredibly naughty, or to ask 251 00:15:41.605 --> 00:15:45.145 for sponsorship, or they see you in the veteran 252 00:15:46.410 --> 00:15:49.709 category now. Yeah. Yes. The seasoned 253 00:15:49.850 --> 00:15:53.370 professional. Yeah. It was actually BBC Radio 254 00:15:53.370 --> 00:15:57.015 Solent that asked me to to be a judge on 255 00:15:57.015 --> 00:16:00.855 their community heroes award. So I was reviewing the entries 256 00:16:00.855 --> 00:16:04.635 for their community heroes and for people who'd gone above and beyond 257 00:16:05.810 --> 00:16:09.329 in in some respect. This is normally it's for pre 258 00:16:09.329 --> 00:16:13.029 COVID, this was about people who had gone out their way to help neighbors, 259 00:16:14.084 --> 00:16:17.125 raise funds or do something, just be a community hero. So I was a judge 260 00:16:17.125 --> 00:16:20.725 in that award, I found that quite quite inspiring because it it's not 261 00:16:20.725 --> 00:16:24.160 strictly an award I want to compete 262 00:16:24.160 --> 00:16:27.920 in, but so I found it a real honour to judge other people who've really 263 00:16:27.920 --> 00:16:31.655 contributed to their communities. So yeah, it was an honour to be 264 00:16:31.735 --> 00:16:35.275 chosen as a judge or, someone who could contribute. 265 00:16:35.575 --> 00:16:39.255 Definitely. So, yeah, yeah. Jo, I did enjoy that. Yeah. And I was also invited 266 00:16:39.255 --> 00:16:42.970 to do another another award which got canceled due to 267 00:16:42.970 --> 00:16:46.730 COVID but I I also have a I'm a guest judge 268 00:16:46.730 --> 00:16:49.390 on us I think called the NORA's which is a, a national 269 00:16:50.185 --> 00:16:53.785 recruitment award. It's about websites 270 00:16:53.785 --> 00:16:57.225 and and recruitment systems. So I've been a judge on that for a couple of 271 00:16:57.225 --> 00:17:01.000 years. So yeah, so yeah, it's nice to 272 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:04.815 be on the judging Joanne. Especially when I haven't, 273 00:17:05.294 --> 00:17:08.815 I don't actually fit into the categories myself, so it's nice to be a judge. 274 00:17:08.815 --> 00:17:12.579 So yeah. And nice to be asked. Yeah. Oh, it's 275 00:17:12.579 --> 00:17:16.179 extremely validating and empowering and and motivating to be 276 00:17:16.179 --> 00:17:19.960 asked. It's a little gift with a huge impact. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. 277 00:17:21.935 --> 00:17:25.755 Jo, go then. Sorry, you're gonna say? I think we 278 00:17:25.755 --> 00:17:29.570 should go back to, the idea of visibility because we've we 279 00:17:29.570 --> 00:17:32.710 talked about the visibility through awards. 280 00:17:34.850 --> 00:17:37.830 And certainly with a number of my clients, 281 00:17:38.435 --> 00:17:41.895 I'm brought in to work with people who are incredible 282 00:17:42.115 --> 00:17:45.255 people. They're producing fantastic 283 00:17:45.475 --> 00:17:49.200 work, but they've had feedback, oh, you've 284 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:53.040 got to make more impact in meetings or the 285 00:17:53.040 --> 00:17:56.825 client thinks you're very quiet. And 286 00:17:56.825 --> 00:18:00.045 inevitably these people are 287 00:18:00.585 --> 00:18:04.105 more reflective. They're taking a little bit more time to 288 00:18:04.105 --> 00:18:07.230 really consider what they're going to say 289 00:18:07.610 --> 00:18:10.270 before they share information. 290 00:18:12.855 --> 00:18:16.154 And I I have no problem with that. I totally understand 291 00:18:16.215 --> 00:18:20.054 them. You know, as a child I would be called boring probably because 292 00:18:20.054 --> 00:18:23.500 I was told never to talk. I don't know if you had that. 293 00:18:24.040 --> 00:18:27.799 And and certainly in 1 or 2 cases, their bosses 294 00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:31.475 have said, no, they're really boring. And and it's not the case at all 295 00:18:31.475 --> 00:18:34.835 because you listen to them and find out who they are, and 296 00:18:34.835 --> 00:18:38.630 they're amazing people. But the 297 00:18:38.630 --> 00:18:41.850 the culture in in corporates quite often 298 00:18:42.310 --> 00:18:46.090 does value those people that are speaking up more, 299 00:18:47.534 --> 00:18:50.975 rather than speaking up with really good 300 00:18:50.975 --> 00:18:54.360 quality content. Yeah. 301 00:18:54.580 --> 00:18:58.340 And I think back at my career in companies 302 00:18:58.340 --> 00:19:02.040 and corporates, I was running teams or managing departments. 303 00:19:02.575 --> 00:19:06.335 And yeah, you're right, you tend to gravitate towards the people who will like 304 00:19:06.335 --> 00:19:09.855 you communicate with you, talk to you, share 305 00:19:09.855 --> 00:19:13.450 ideas, don't come with problems, they're 306 00:19:13.450 --> 00:19:16.430 coming, they're very positive impact, and the people who are quiet, 307 00:19:17.130 --> 00:19:20.815 it's very easy for them to be left behind or ignored or, or not 308 00:19:20.815 --> 00:19:24.495 heard. And I've my, my style 309 00:19:24.495 --> 00:19:28.255 generally, if I'm, if I'm the new girl in a room in a 310 00:19:28.255 --> 00:19:32.040 in a meeting, is to spend the 1st period listening to 311 00:19:32.040 --> 00:19:35.580 that maybe even be the entire meeting, I've even had someone at the end saying, 312 00:19:35.800 --> 00:19:39.455 we do like our trustees to speak out and give their opinions. Okay? It's 313 00:19:39.455 --> 00:19:43.075 okay. When I when I have something to say, you'll hear it, don't worry. 314 00:19:43.935 --> 00:19:47.440 And so sometimes I'm looking at the personalities in the room going, 315 00:19:47.679 --> 00:19:51.360 okay, working at you, working at you, working out where I 316 00:19:51.360 --> 00:19:55.200 feel I fit myself, working out my level of field 317 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:58.755 of expertise, if before I before I start talking about the accounts 318 00:19:58.755 --> 00:20:02.595 or the p and l or the sales figures, I wanna know what 319 00:20:02.595 --> 00:20:06.170 everybody else's kind of views are because what I don't wanna do is is jump 320 00:20:06.170 --> 00:20:09.850 in and be an idiot or or seem foolish. And I wanna 321 00:20:09.850 --> 00:20:13.690 judge the the level of directness people have. Yeah. So I need 322 00:20:13.690 --> 00:20:17.505 to I need to understand my style could be this and that might be a 323 00:20:17.505 --> 00:20:21.345 bit of a shock for people or I might go in too soft when actually 324 00:20:21.345 --> 00:20:25.045 they want directness. So again, I I see that as 325 00:20:25.669 --> 00:20:29.509 evaluating the land first and then I'll go right now I've got 326 00:20:29.509 --> 00:20:33.190 this and I'll go for something I'll join in and people are 327 00:20:33.190 --> 00:20:36.855 almost like you can see people go oh Jo's got a voice. Wow. Actually 328 00:20:36.935 --> 00:20:39.995 and when she talks, it's worth listening to. Yes. Brilliant. 329 00:20:40.775 --> 00:20:43.995 Do you think Sorry. Yeah. Do do you think that the chairperson 330 00:20:45.010 --> 00:20:48.690 could, have more of a mini more of an impact on that? I 331 00:20:48.690 --> 00:20:52.290 mean, obviously, with trustee meetings, you get an agenda 332 00:20:52.290 --> 00:20:55.795 beforehand. Hopefully, there are some clear 333 00:20:55.795 --> 00:20:59.335 outcomes that you want to achieve by the end of the meeting. Not always, 334 00:20:59.555 --> 00:21:03.315 but that's what we hope. And for a chairman to 335 00:21:03.315 --> 00:21:07.059 say and and, Joanne, what do you think if that was the first 336 00:21:07.059 --> 00:21:10.740 time you were around that table? Oh, completely. 337 00:21:10.740 --> 00:21:14.340 And, yeah, I I think at the end I mean, I I I've 338 00:21:14.340 --> 00:21:17.945 I've I've been a chair of trustees for several charities. 339 00:21:18.245 --> 00:21:22.085 I've, been a non exec director of a couple of organizations. 340 00:21:22.085 --> 00:21:25.580 I've I've been a director of my own business, high-tech staff over the 341 00:21:25.580 --> 00:21:28.380 years. So I'm I'm not shy. I've also, 342 00:21:29.980 --> 00:21:33.635 I've also been the national president of a of an organization throughout the 343 00:21:33.674 --> 00:21:37.195 which is UK wide. So I've chaired big AGMs with 344 00:21:37.195 --> 00:21:40.715 600 people in the room, I've traveled the country, I've I've 345 00:21:40.715 --> 00:21:44.380 chaired meetings all my life, so I I'm I'm actually not shy 346 00:21:44.380 --> 00:21:48.140 but I still have this slowly slowly approach 347 00:21:48.140 --> 00:21:50.975 to things and as a as a 348 00:21:51.535 --> 00:21:55.215 chair, I would always make sure I look around the room who's not included, 349 00:21:55.215 --> 00:21:58.895 who's not who's not speaking and say and actually deliberately 350 00:21:58.895 --> 00:22:01.200 say Jo Helen, 351 00:22:02.700 --> 00:22:05.500 we were talking about this earlier, you have some great ideas. Do you want to 352 00:22:05.500 --> 00:22:09.020 just tell me those again? Because I think you have some great ideas earlier. But 353 00:22:09.020 --> 00:22:12.535 that also requires the chair, do some homework and talk to the people between 354 00:22:12.535 --> 00:22:16.375 meetings, engage with them before the meeting starts, is there anything you 355 00:22:16.375 --> 00:22:19.480 want to think about, anything in the agenda that you want to pick up and 356 00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:23.320 then you know how to include people if they're not saying anything, because the 357 00:22:23.320 --> 00:22:26.674 worst thing you get in meetings is people just saying the expected to be I 358 00:22:26.674 --> 00:22:30.515 agree with them and you end up with they keep repeating what 359 00:22:30.515 --> 00:22:33.370 someone has to say, it's like, well, if everyone's agreeing with them, can we just 360 00:22:33.370 --> 00:22:37.130 we just have new new comments or people who disagree or people who've got another 361 00:22:37.130 --> 00:22:40.570 idea? But if you haven't got anything to say that's different then we just 362 00:22:40.570 --> 00:22:44.255 go okay. So we're all happy with that, are we? Yeah. And there's nothing 363 00:22:44.255 --> 00:22:47.455 worse than a a room full of people telling you I agree with the first 364 00:22:47.455 --> 00:22:51.159 person. Okay. That is a really, really 365 00:22:51.159 --> 00:22:54.600 interesting point. And only a couple of weeks ago, I 366 00:22:54.600 --> 00:22:58.414 posted something on LinkedIn that provoked a lot of of, 367 00:22:58.794 --> 00:23:02.635 interest and that was that I said, if you are at 368 00:23:02.635 --> 00:23:06.020 the table at a meeting, it's your 369 00:23:06.020 --> 00:23:09.780 duty to share your opinion. And your opinion might 370 00:23:09.780 --> 00:23:13.540 not land well with everybody else, but at least it will start a 371 00:23:13.540 --> 00:23:17.205 discussion and help in the in the 372 00:23:17.205 --> 00:23:20.904 process, the decision making. And it's not about a fight, 373 00:23:21.044 --> 00:23:24.540 but it's about having your voice and your opinion and your 374 00:23:24.540 --> 00:23:27.440 perspective on a particular item. 375 00:23:28.540 --> 00:23:31.919 And it was very, very interesting because one person contacted 376 00:23:31.980 --> 00:23:35.715 me, from the US and she said, the thing is, 377 00:23:35.715 --> 00:23:39.395 when everybody says yes and agrees, it's a 378 00:23:39.395 --> 00:23:43.039 very, very expensive decision making process 379 00:23:43.659 --> 00:23:47.120 because all of those people could be doing something else in the business. 380 00:23:48.605 --> 00:23:51.945 Yes. You actually want to have views that that not Jo 381 00:23:52.365 --> 00:23:55.725 argue or disagree strongly, but have a a 382 00:23:55.725 --> 00:23:59.419 modification or a reflection that maybe is is not being thought 383 00:23:59.419 --> 00:24:02.220 about. So I agree with so and Jo, but one of the things I was 384 00:24:02.220 --> 00:24:06.055 thinking of could we do this as well or instead or just adjust the 385 00:24:06.055 --> 00:24:09.735 wording slightly that it's adding value or modifying the 386 00:24:09.735 --> 00:24:12.395 original motion if you like. I'm just saying yeah 387 00:24:13.470 --> 00:24:17.150 Yeah. You're right. Yeah. If you're not careful, why be there? Yeah. But 388 00:24:17.150 --> 00:24:20.910 also another another American contacted 389 00:24:20.910 --> 00:24:24.485 me who always comments on my things, which is fantastic. Love 390 00:24:24.485 --> 00:24:28.325 it. And he said one of the prob he one of the problems 391 00:24:28.325 --> 00:24:32.170 he encountered as a leader was that quite 392 00:24:32.170 --> 00:24:35.950 often people would just say yes from a political point of view. 393 00:24:36.090 --> 00:24:39.610 They wanted to see be seen as agreeing with the 394 00:24:39.610 --> 00:24:42.035 leader for strategic purposes. 395 00:24:44.335 --> 00:24:48.080 I've got this call. Is this trouble in meetings where often the first 396 00:24:48.080 --> 00:24:51.920 thing that happens is the person in power, the leader, the person 397 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:55.615 who's running the meeting will often say this is what I want to talk 398 00:24:55.615 --> 00:24:59.215 about and this is what I think. So they say 399 00:24:59.215 --> 00:25:02.735 basically, I've told you what I think and I want you to agree with 400 00:25:02.735 --> 00:25:06.510 me or or or be it conflict with me. 401 00:25:06.510 --> 00:25:10.290