Joanne Lockwood: Hello everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for the
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I'll be interviewing a
Joanne Lockwood: number of amazing people and simply having a conversation about the
Joanne Lockwood: subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the
Joanne Lockwood: world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to
Joanne Lockwood: join me in the future, then please drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: That's S-E-E Change Happen dot Co dot
Joanne Lockwood: uk. You can catch up with all the previous shows on Itunes,
Joanne Lockwood: Spotify, and the usual places. So plug in your
Joanne Lockwood: headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going.
Joanne Lockwood: Today is episode 25 with the title
Joanne Lockwood: 'Being Visible, Listened to and Respected'.
Joanne Lockwood: And I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Susan
Joanne Lockwood: Heaton-Wright. Susan describes herself as someone who
Joanne Lockwood: empowers individuals and teams to make an impact
Joanne Lockwood: in business conversations. When I asked Susan to
Joanne Lockwood: describe her superpower, she said, empathy.
Joanne Lockwood: She is able to understand emotions, perspectives, and opinions
Joanne Lockwood: from different viewpoints. Hello, Susan. Welcome to
Joanne Lockwood: the show. Hello. Thank you so much for having me.
Joanne Lockwood: It's a pleasure. I mean, we've been talking about this for a few months now,
Joanne Lockwood: and I'm glad we finally got together to do this. Yay. It's great.
Joanne Lockwood: So who who is Susan? Tell me what you mean by being visible,
Joanne Lockwood: listened to, and respected. What does that look and feel like to you? Do you
Susan Heaton Wright: know there's a part of me that feels, oh my goodness. I'm blowing
Susan Heaton Wright: my trumpet. I'm showing off. And that's
Susan Heaton Wright: my sort of introvert state and the type of
Susan Heaton Wright: person that I was brought up to be. Somebody that was
Susan Heaton Wright: quiet and in the background and very, very humble.
Susan Heaton Wright: And I am aware through my own life and
Susan Heaton Wright: also with a number of clients that I now work with
Susan Heaton Wright: that sometimes they are underestimated and they're
Susan Heaton Wright: not as visible as they can be. And perhaps
Susan Heaton Wright: they miss out on some great opportunities
Susan Heaton Wright: or are not promoted when they ought to be.
Susan Heaton Wright: For for my perspective, when I was a schoolgirl,
Susan Heaton Wright: I shall admit that I was very much underestimated. I
Susan Heaton Wright: tell the story that when I was
Susan Heaton Wright: 16, 17, when everyone was applying to university,
Susan Heaton Wright: my school would not give me an application
Susan Heaton Wright: form for university because they did not feel that
Susan Heaton Wright: it was worth my while. I wasn't bright enough. Yet I have
Susan Heaton Wright: the exam results to prove that, but there was a question
Susan Heaton Wright: mark attached to that. What I happened to do
Susan Heaton Wright: was to find an application for my last headmistress
Susan Heaton Wright: to complete the the application for me, and I had
Susan Heaton Wright: ended up at a top university. But
Susan Heaton Wright: I recognize that because of the my demeanor
Susan Heaton Wright: and the way I was and why I was quiet, that I was
Susan Heaton Wright: being underestimated. And so there was that question mark
Susan Heaton Wright: that perhaps somebody that was a little bit more confident
Susan Heaton Wright: would that the question mark wouldn't be there for the teachers.
Susan Heaton Wright: Have you found that at all? Yeah. That's that's interesting. I'm I'm I'm just
Joanne Lockwood: thinking back to my own childhood, and I'm in my mid-50s
Joanne Lockwood: and just kind of the culture of the time was very much I remember my
Joanne Lockwood: parents saying to me don't speak unless you're spoken to,
Joanne Lockwood: if you ask you don't get. So it's very much a culture of
Joanne Lockwood: humbleness and I would almost say that being
Joanne Lockwood: humble, being quiet, being thoughtful was
Joanne Lockwood: a valued way of being a child in those days. If you
Joanne Lockwood: weren't you were kind of shouted down or or
Joanne Lockwood: punished or or told off for being too noisy or
Joanne Lockwood: being too out there. So I think maybe
Joanne Lockwood: socialization that we've we've we've brought up with
Joanne Lockwood: going back generations is having a real impact on us, isn't it?
Susan Heaton Wright: I think it is. And and, certainly, that
Susan Heaton Wright: idea that if you work hard, you will
Susan Heaton Wright: be rewarded. And we know that in corporate
Susan Heaton Wright: culture, that it's not necessarily those
Susan Heaton Wright: people that work very, very hard and get the best results
Susan Heaton Wright: that are rewarded. And this plays
Joanne Lockwood: into one of my pet subjects around meritocracy.
Joanne Lockwood: Meritocracy is it often is the people who are visible, the people who are
Joanne Lockwood: extrovert, the people who are grabbing that are seen
Joanne Lockwood: as more
Joanne Lockwood: just more capable. Yes. We often
Joanne Lockwood: we people I mean, you know, and I know it from experience that just
Joanne Lockwood: because you're loud doesn't mean to say you're any better, it just means to say
Joanne Lockwood: you're loud. It doesn't mean you're quiet. You're off and you're in
Joanne Lockwood: the pushover very valid is we don't talk and amplify ourselves
Joanne Lockwood: enough, people don't see us. We've got to be our, we've got
Joanne Lockwood: to learn to be our own advocate sometimes, haven't
Joanne Lockwood: we? I think Jo, and also we need to
Susan Heaton Wright: demonstrate how well we're doing things. So
Susan Heaton Wright: there we know that there are some people that they will blow their
Susan Heaton Wright: trumpet if they, I don't know, wipe their nose
Susan Heaton Wright: or something teeny weeny like that. Whereas you and
Susan Heaton Wright: I, with the way that we were brought up, we would probably think,
Susan Heaton Wright: well, you you know, that that's part of living,
Susan Heaton Wright: isn't it? I don't need to, need to show off
Susan Heaton Wright: about that. But unfortunately, when it
Susan Heaton Wright: comes to decision making, it can be
Susan Heaton Wright: those people that are remembered that have made the
Susan Heaton Wright: effort to blow their trumpet and expose
Susan Heaton Wright: their merits. Yeah. And and certainly, I
Joanne Lockwood: mean, I I'm a small business owner. I'm a consultant practitioner, similar
Joanne Lockwood: way you are. So if I don't blow my trumpet nobody else is going to
Joanne Lockwood: blow it for me. And we've had
Joanne Lockwood: to maybe escape our programming and
Joanne Lockwood: talk about personal brand, talk about social selling, talk about
Joanne Lockwood: networking and being being our business and being visible out there,
Joanne Lockwood: but I often find that that doesn't always come natural to me and I
Joanne Lockwood: I always shy away when people describe me or they they read out my
Joanne Lockwood: bio or they've written something about it and I think, oh, that's a that's a
Joanne Lockwood: bit kind of, it's lovely what you're saying, but I'm not sure I'm
Joanne Lockwood: comfortable being described as a world expert or anything. It's kind
Joanne Lockwood: of and yet there are people out there that rise to that that
Joanne Lockwood: that language and they are, oh, yes, I'm a world expert and they declare themselves
Joanne Lockwood: and Yes. Yeah. I I get a bit embarrassed almost
Joanne Lockwood: because I don't want to be putting myself
Joanne Lockwood: I want I want to have my personal Joanne, but I don't necessarily wanna put
Joanne Lockwood: myself right up there on the on the pedestal and say I'm best or
Joanne Lockwood: anything like this. Do you think that there's something very English about
Susan Heaton Wright: this? We talk about the the tall poppy syndrome,
Susan Heaton Wright: that somebody will see somebody growing up and
Susan Heaton Wright: being big and then cut them down, particularly the media.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes. I mean, for sure, we we see that all the time. And there's,
Joanne Lockwood: I saw a speaker, who's written a book, a lady called Margaret Hefferman,
Joanne Lockwood: and she she wrote the book and she talks about the super chicken. And that's
Joanne Lockwood: something, you know, often where women do it to each other. They peck
Joanne Lockwood: at each other And the super chicken is the big chicken, the bully chicken
Joanne Lockwood: that pecks all the other women and all the other chickens and puts them down.
Joanne Lockwood: And I think sometimes we don't like successes,
Joanne Lockwood: do we, we want to and the media does it but we look at Instagram,
Joanne Lockwood: we look at telly, we're the first to judge, don't we judge? We look at,
Joanne Lockwood: oh, don't like that dress or those shoes or Jo, no hair style. And
Joanne Lockwood: even when we say, oh, you look lovely, what we really mean is buy wouldn't
Joanne Lockwood: wear it. Yes. I mean, you I don't know if you know that
Susan Heaton Wright: part of my background is that I used to be a singer.
Susan Heaton Wright: And certainly, if you would go to other concerts
Susan Heaton Wright: or events, there would be a certain culture around
Susan Heaton Wright: obviously not saying nasty things. But you knew
Susan Heaton Wright: if somebody said, well, you know, the flat the floral decorations
Susan Heaton Wright: in the venue were lovely, you knew that it wasn't very
Susan Heaton Wright: good. Yes. You draw attention to the
Joanne Lockwood: thing that you find most
Joanne Lockwood: distracting or or whatever you're thinking about and then put a positive spin on it,
Joanne Lockwood: don't you? Oh, I love I love your shoes. Really?
Susan Heaton Wright: Yeah. It it's really interesting about what I
Susan Heaton Wright: call the green eyed monster, and,
Susan Heaton Wright: us going on to Instagram or Facebook,
Susan Heaton Wright: occasionally that you can you're aware of something triggering
Susan Heaton Wright: off and you're thinking, oh, why is that not me? Why are they
Susan Heaton Wright: getting that work? And I have consciously
Susan Heaton Wright: thought of when I feel that to just take a deep
Susan Heaton Wright: breath and then say well done, even if I don't say it to
Susan Heaton Wright: the individual, but it to myself, I
Susan Heaton Wright: say well done to that person, rather than letting it
Susan Heaton Wright: eat me inside, which could be the the
Susan Heaton Wright: normal thing to do. Do you do
Susan Heaton Wright: that? Yeah. That yeah. That that's that's that's so true.
Joanne Lockwood: I I like to say thank you to people. I like to make sure that
Joanne Lockwood: people know that I'm grateful. But in the same way, I want it to
Joanne Lockwood: be authentic and and meaningful. So I'm not one
Joanne Lockwood: to go over the top, I'm more one to give a quiet 'thanks I
Joanne Lockwood: really appreciate that' rather than 'wow you're amazing' and
Joanne Lockwood: huge, huge great trumpet. Jo, yeah, I
Joanne Lockwood: suppose I I tend to praise in the way I like to be
Joanne Lockwood: praised meaningful, understated, but very
Joanne Lockwood: personally, almost like find the one thing that I think they'd be
Joanne Lockwood: most they'd be most pleased with that I've identified, rather
Joanne Lockwood: than giving us big, kind of flowery
Joanne Lockwood: lots of superlatives going on, I'd rather say I love to
Joanne Lockwood: talk and when you said this that really resonated. That that for me is
Joanne Lockwood: very specific and it's a great great direct feedback rather than
Joanne Lockwood: you're wonderful and amazing and, ah, it's awesome. That means
Joanne Lockwood: nothing to me. But do you think that depends on the person it
Susan Heaton Wright: is? Because somebody that's very, you know, out
Susan Heaton Wright: there, that sort of acclaim, oh, we were wonderful,
Susan Heaton Wright: might be exactly what fires them up.
Joanne Lockwood: Oh, for sure. I I I'm I'm I'm the first one to
Joanne Lockwood: allow or or want or or everyone to be themselves. I wouldn't want to
Joanne Lockwood: judge anybody or anyone in their own box if that's the way they
Joanne Lockwood: want to express that's fine. It I suppose what resonates for
Joanne Lockwood: me is where it is more precise, more more considered,
Joanne Lockwood: and more thought about and I'm not I'm not judging someone who does the the
Joanne Lockwood: big flowery articles stuff and saying they haven't thought about it
Joanne Lockwood: but I often think of that as kind of just this this big sort of
Joanne Lockwood: like big lovey huggy kissy type type of thing
Joanne Lockwood: rather than being a rather being as sincere, but that that's just the way I
Joanne Lockwood: like feedback. They may well be being sincere, and that's how they do it.
Joanne Lockwood: So I would never I would never shy away from it. I would just say,
Joanne Lockwood: oh, thank you. You oh, you're wonderful. Thank you for saying that. Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: But I'm not, I mean in the same way, I'm not I'm not a great
Joanne Lockwood: fan of award ceremonies and I've been
Joanne Lockwood: nominated for a few awards and I'm a
Joanne Lockwood: bit cynical because often the the awards ceremony are about selling tickets
Joanne Lockwood: to the award event. I know. Or promoting someone's brand Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And they want everyone, they want to nominate the entire world, so the entire
Joanne Lockwood: world talks about it for 6 months while they're being nominated, then they talk about
Joanne Lockwood: the shortlist. So I'm very cynical about it and I I have got nominated for
Joanne Lockwood: a few. And I did partake in kind of the early publicity and
Joanne Lockwood: then I wrote to the award giver and said, look, I really appreciate the
Joanne Lockwood: nomination, but I'd like to withdraw. It's not me. I don't want
Joanne Lockwood: to be it's I I fully respect for those in the suit, but I'd rather
Joanne Lockwood: be understated than under the radar. I do my personal Joanne in
Joanne Lockwood: other ways. And it was almost like I couldn't see my back going, oh,
Joanne Lockwood: that's a surprise. Okay, if you say so. No one's ever done
Joanne Lockwood: that before. But, yeah, I I don't
Joanne Lockwood: need a medal, but I I do. I I
Joanne Lockwood: I, yeah, I I I amplify and and shine my light in different
Joanne Lockwood: ways. Yeah. Ways I feel more comfortable with. Do you know what? One of the
Susan Heaton Wright: things that I pledged to do there are a few things I pledged to do
Susan Heaton Wright: to lift other people up and to support other people,
Susan Heaton Wright: And that is to nominate 3 women for business
Susan Heaton Wright: awards every year. Yes. I've
Susan Heaton Wright: done my 3 this year. One of them wasn't successful. I'm still waiting for
Susan Heaton Wright: the other 2 to see if they're shortlisted.
Susan Heaton Wright: But, certainly, that that brings real
Susan Heaton Wright: joy to other people. And, it
Susan Heaton Wright: just it is I feel, a way that I feel
Susan Heaton Wright: comfortable about,
Susan Heaton Wright: supporting other people and putting the spotlight on
Susan Heaton Wright: them? Yeah. I think a lot
Joanne Lockwood: of it is Joanne to my own personal bias. Yeah. About not valuing
Joanne Lockwood: that myself in that way. Yeah. Or the embarrassment or
Joanne Lockwood: the uncomfortableness of of being recognized for
Joanne Lockwood: that and me thinking well, hang on a minute, I know I've done some good
Joanne Lockwood: stuff, but surely there are better people, you know, my business decision will kick
Joanne Lockwood: in and thinking well how can I be
Joanne Lockwood: business startup of the year in Portsmouth? It's just it's like
Joanne Lockwood: what you're saying is, I'm in the 5 people we're looking
Joanne Lockwood: at, you are the winner of the 5 people we've looked at. There's a 1000
Joanne Lockwood: people we haven't looked at. It just happens you have you you you're in the
Joanne Lockwood: right queue at the right time. That's why I sometimes find
Joanne Lockwood: a bit cynical about some of these awards ceremonies, it's who's nominated you,
Joanne Lockwood: who are are you really the winner or are you
Joanne Lockwood: just the winner of the people in the room? Yes.
Susan Heaton Wright: But that's right then. But I I accept they could. I I say make people
Joanne Lockwood: feel good, it has people to shout about their business and promote, I'm I'm not
Joanne Lockwood: all in favor, but, yeah, I'm not I'm not poo pooing them, I just I,
Joanne Lockwood: I get very cynical personally about them. You know, in my
Susan Heaton Wright: case, I'm supporting someone else, and even if they
Susan Heaton Wright: don't get through, they know that I have given
Susan Heaton Wright: some of my time to write that application.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I'm I'd say I'm I'm completely with with other
Joanne Lockwood: people enjoying them and and volunteering. And one thing strange
Joanne Lockwood: happened to me this year was actually people started asking
Joanne Lockwood: me to be a judge on award ceremonies. So I thought,
Joanne Lockwood: 'mhmm, I've gone from being a candidate to now being a judge, does
Joanne Lockwood: that mean I've skipped over,
Joanne Lockwood: and gone to a new level where people are now seeing
Joanne Lockwood: me as an authority whereas before they were seeing me as an aspiring. Now now
Joanne Lockwood: I'm judging. So I I just try to work out if that was an
Joanne Lockwood: insult or or or or a, congratulations. I suddenly
Joanne Lockwood: thought, hang on a minute. I wanted to be I would have been nominated for
Joanne Lockwood: that award, but now I'm judging it. Okay. Fair enough.
Susan Heaton Wright: And 2 things on that. Are they expecting you to pay for the
Susan Heaton Wright: privilege? Because some They would. Yeah. Some of the odds
Susan Heaton Wright: do, which I think is incredibly naughty, or to ask
Susan Heaton Wright: for sponsorship, or they see you in the veteran
Susan Heaton Wright: category now. Yeah. Yes. The seasoned
Joanne Lockwood: professional. Yeah. It was actually BBC Radio
Joanne Lockwood: Solent that asked me to to be a judge on
Joanne Lockwood: their community heroes award. So I was reviewing the entries
Joanne Lockwood: for their community heroes and for people who'd gone above and beyond
Joanne Lockwood: in in some respect. This is normally it's for pre
Joanne Lockwood: COVID, this was about people who had gone out their way to help neighbors,
Joanne Lockwood: raise funds or do something, just be a community hero. So I was a judge
Joanne Lockwood: in that award, I found that quite quite inspiring because it it's not
Joanne Lockwood: strictly an award I want to compete
Joanne Lockwood: in, but so I found it a real honour to judge other people who've really
Joanne Lockwood: contributed to their communities. So yeah, it was an honour to be
Joanne Lockwood: chosen as a judge or, someone who could contribute.
Susan Heaton Wright: Definitely. So, yeah, yeah. Jo, I did enjoy that. Yeah. And I was also invited
Joanne Lockwood: to do another another award which got canceled due to
Joanne Lockwood: COVID but I I also have a I'm a guest judge
Joanne Lockwood: on us I think called the NORA's which is a, a national
Joanne Lockwood: recruitment award. It's about websites
Joanne Lockwood: and and recruitment systems. So I've been a judge on that for a couple of
Joanne Lockwood: years. So yeah, so yeah, it's nice to
Joanne Lockwood: be on the judging Joanne. Especially when I haven't,
Joanne Lockwood: I don't actually fit into the categories myself, so it's nice to be a judge.
Susan Heaton Wright: So yeah. And nice to be asked. Yeah. Oh, it's
Joanne Lockwood: extremely validating and empowering and and motivating to be
Joanne Lockwood: asked. It's a little gift with a huge impact. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.
Joanne Lockwood: Jo, go then. Sorry, you're gonna say? I think we
Susan Heaton Wright: should go back to, the idea of visibility because we've we
Susan Heaton Wright: talked about the visibility through awards.
Susan Heaton Wright: And certainly with a number of my clients,
Susan Heaton Wright: I'm brought in to work with people who are incredible
Susan Heaton Wright: people. They're producing fantastic
Susan Heaton Wright: work, but they've had feedback, oh, you've
Susan Heaton Wright: got to make more impact in meetings or the
Susan Heaton Wright: client thinks you're very quiet. And
Susan Heaton Wright: inevitably these people are
Susan Heaton Wright: more reflective. They're taking a little bit more time to
Susan Heaton Wright: really consider what they're going to say
Susan Heaton Wright: before they share information.
Susan Heaton Wright: And I I have no problem with that. I totally understand
Susan Heaton Wright: them. You know, as a child I would be called boring probably because
Susan Heaton Wright: I was told never to talk. I don't know if you had that.
Susan Heaton Wright: And and certainly in 1 or 2 cases, their bosses
Susan Heaton Wright: have said, no, they're really boring. And and it's not the case at all
Susan Heaton Wright: because you listen to them and find out who they are, and
Susan Heaton Wright: they're amazing people. But the
Susan Heaton Wright: the culture in in corporates quite often
Susan Heaton Wright: does value those people that are speaking up more,
Susan Heaton Wright: rather than speaking up with really good
Susan Heaton Wright: quality content. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And I think back at my career in companies
Joanne Lockwood: and corporates, I was running teams or managing departments.
Joanne Lockwood: And yeah, you're right, you tend to gravitate towards the people who will like
Joanne Lockwood: you communicate with you, talk to you, share
Joanne Lockwood: ideas, don't come with problems, they're
Joanne Lockwood: coming, they're very positive impact, and the people who are quiet,
Joanne Lockwood: it's very easy for them to be left behind or ignored or, or not
Joanne Lockwood: heard. And I've my, my style
Joanne Lockwood: generally, if I'm, if I'm the new girl in a room in a
Joanne Lockwood: in a meeting, is to spend the 1st period listening to
Joanne Lockwood: that maybe even be the entire meeting, I've even had someone at the end saying,
Joanne Lockwood: we do like our trustees to speak out and give their opinions. Okay? It's
Joanne Lockwood: okay. When I when I have something to say, you'll hear it, don't worry.
Joanne Lockwood: And so sometimes I'm looking at the personalities in the room going,
Joanne Lockwood: okay, working at you, working at you, working out where I
Joanne Lockwood: feel I fit myself, working out my level of field
Joanne Lockwood: of expertise, if before I before I start talking about the accounts
Joanne Lockwood: or the p and l or the sales figures, I wanna know what
Joanne Lockwood: everybody else's kind of views are because what I don't wanna do is is jump
Joanne Lockwood: in and be an idiot or or seem foolish. And I wanna
Joanne Lockwood: judge the the level of directness people have. Yeah. So I need
Joanne Lockwood: to I need to understand my style could be this and that might be a
Joanne Lockwood: bit of a shock for people or I might go in too soft when actually
Joanne Lockwood: they want directness. So again, I I see that as
Joanne Lockwood: evaluating the land first and then I'll go right now I've got
Joanne Lockwood: this and I'll go for something I'll join in and people are
Joanne Lockwood: almost like you can see people go oh Jo's got a voice. Wow. Actually
Joanne Lockwood: and when she talks, it's worth listening to. Yes. Brilliant.
Susan Heaton Wright: Do you think Sorry. Yeah. Do do you think that the chairperson
Susan Heaton Wright: could, have more of a mini more of an impact on that? I
Susan Heaton Wright: mean, obviously, with trustee meetings, you get an agenda
Susan Heaton Wright: beforehand. Hopefully, there are some clear
Susan Heaton Wright: outcomes that you want to achieve by the end of the meeting. Not always,
Susan Heaton Wright: but that's what we hope. And for a chairman to
Susan Heaton Wright: say and and, Joanne, what do you think if that was the first
Susan Heaton Wright: time you were around that table? Oh, completely.
Joanne Lockwood: And, yeah, I I think at the end I mean, I I I've
Joanne Lockwood: I've I've been a chair of trustees for several charities.
Joanne Lockwood: I've, been a non exec director of a couple of organizations.
Joanne Lockwood: I've I've been a director of my own business, high-tech staff over the
Joanne Lockwood: years. So I'm I'm not shy. I've also,
Joanne Lockwood: I've also been the national president of a of an organization throughout the
Joanne Lockwood: which is UK wide. So I've chaired big AGMs with
Joanne Lockwood: 600 people in the room, I've traveled the country, I've I've
Joanne Lockwood: chaired meetings all my life, so I I'm I'm actually not shy
Joanne Lockwood: but I still have this slowly slowly approach
Joanne Lockwood: to things and as a as a
Joanne Lockwood: chair, I would always make sure I look around the room who's not included,
Joanne Lockwood: who's not who's not speaking and say and actually deliberately
Joanne Lockwood: say Jo Helen,
Joanne Lockwood: we were talking about this earlier, you have some great ideas. Do you want to
Joanne Lockwood: just tell me those again? Because I think you have some great ideas earlier. But
Joanne Lockwood: that also requires the chair, do some homework and talk to the people between
Joanne Lockwood: meetings, engage with them before the meeting starts, is there anything you
Joanne Lockwood: want to think about, anything in the agenda that you want to pick up and
Joanne Lockwood: then you know how to include people if they're not saying anything, because the
Joanne Lockwood: worst thing you get in meetings is people just saying the expected to be I
Joanne Lockwood: agree with them and you end up with they keep repeating what
Joanne Lockwood: someone has to say, it's like, well, if everyone's agreeing with them, can we just
Joanne Lockwood: we just have new new comments or people who disagree or people who've got another
Joanne Lockwood: idea? But if you haven't got anything to say that's different then we just
Joanne Lockwood: go okay. So we're all happy with that, are we? Yeah. And there's nothing
Joanne Lockwood: worse than a a room full of people telling you I agree with the first
Joanne Lockwood: person. Okay. That is a really, really
Susan Heaton Wright: interesting point. And only a couple of weeks ago, I
Susan Heaton Wright: posted something on LinkedIn that provoked a lot of of,
Susan Heaton Wright: interest and that was that I said, if you are at
Susan Heaton Wright: the table at a meeting, it's your
Susan Heaton Wright: duty to share your opinion. And your opinion might
Susan Heaton Wright: not land well with everybody else, but at least it will start a
Susan Heaton Wright: discussion and help in the in the
Susan Heaton Wright: process, the decision making. And it's not about a fight,
Susan Heaton Wright: but it's about having your voice and your opinion and your
Susan Heaton Wright: perspective on a particular item.
Susan Heaton Wright: And it was very, very interesting because one person contacted
Susan Heaton Wright: me, from the US and she said, the thing is,
Susan Heaton Wright: when everybody says yes and agrees, it's a
Susan Heaton Wright: very, very expensive decision making process
Susan Heaton Wright: because all of those people could be doing something else in the business.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes. You actually want to have views that that not Jo
Joanne Lockwood: argue or disagree strongly, but have a a
Joanne Lockwood: modification or a reflection that maybe is is not being thought
Joanne Lockwood: about. So I agree with so and Jo, but one of the things I was
Joanne Lockwood: thinking of could we do this as well or instead or just adjust the
Joanne Lockwood: wording slightly that it's adding value or modifying the
Joanne Lockwood: original motion if you like. I'm just saying yeah
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. You're right. Yeah. If you're not careful, why be there? Yeah. But
Susan Heaton Wright: also another another American contacted
Susan Heaton Wright: me who always comments on my things, which is fantastic. Love
Susan Heaton Wright: it. And he said one of the prob he one of the problems
Susan Heaton Wright: he encountered as a leader was that quite
Susan Heaton Wright: often people would just say yes from a political point of view.
Susan Heaton Wright: They wanted to see be seen as agreeing with the
Susan Heaton Wright: leader for strategic purposes.
Susan Heaton Wright: I've got this call. Is this trouble in meetings where often the first
Joanne Lockwood: thing that happens is the person in power, the leader, the person
Joanne Lockwood: who's running the meeting will often say this is what I want to talk
Joanne Lockwood: about and this is what I think. So they say
Joanne Lockwood: basically, I've told you what I think and I want you to agree with
Joanne Lockwood: me or or or be it conflict with me.
Joanne Lockwood: And people often, you say people you talked about in the beginning who are introvert.
Joanne Lockwood: They're not willing to be a conflict, are they? Jo. Of course not. And
Susan Heaton Wright: if there is a power struggle anyway, they don't want to rock the boat. And
Susan Heaton Wright: I can I can get that? It's sort of setting
Susan Heaton Wright: a a framework where individual opinion
Susan Heaton Wright: is not valued because the leaders
Susan Heaton Wright: already set set the agenda and and what the outcome
Susan Heaton Wright: is. Yeah. I I think as
Joanne Lockwood: a as a whole Joanne, I mean, when I when I talk
Joanne Lockwood: about inclusion from a business perspective, it one of the things is about
Joanne Lockwood: communication and listening. And the leaders need to start by listening, not by not
Joanne Lockwood: by telling or or manipulating the outcome
Joanne Lockwood: by giving opinion. And the oh, one of my bugbears,
Susan Heaton Wright: I have a number, as you can probably realize,
Susan Heaton Wright: is when people run, speak like a leader
Susan Heaton Wright: challenges. And actually, it should never be speak like
Susan Heaton Wright: a leader. It should be communicate like a
Susan Heaton Wright: leader. And you hit the nail on the head about listening.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. We we don't listen. We we we we we talk
Joanne Lockwood: to sell our opinion. We talk to prove ourselves,
Joanne Lockwood: right, we talk to prove ourselves that we've got more value than somebody or we
Joanne Lockwood: got a we're we're intelligent or worth something
Joanne Lockwood: rather than saying, actually, I I wanna talk so I can find out. I wanna
Joanne Lockwood: actually I'm I'm only talking to clarify. I'm talking to find out
Joanne Lockwood: information. I'm questioning because I may
Joanne Lockwood: not be right. And there's a there's a state there's a there's a quote I
Joanne Lockwood: often use in terms of the training I run, which is, strong
Joanne Lockwood: opinions are weakly held. So it's great to have an opinion, it's great to
Joanne Lockwood: know what you stand for, it's great to know you have have some
Joanne Lockwood: value. But you also you hold those opinions so lightly,
Joanne Lockwood: that you want to prove yourself wrong, you want to find out
Joanne Lockwood: whether your theory, you're testing yourself, your perspective is
Joanne Lockwood: valid. How often do we go in there saying I'm right,
Joanne Lockwood: actually, how about I could be wrong, tell me what you
Joanne Lockwood: think. I'm really interested to understand why you think differently to me then
Joanne Lockwood: I can modify my sense of right and wrong or perspective and go,
Joanne Lockwood: actually, Susan's got a point there. I hadn't thought of that before. But
Joanne Lockwood: I don't hear that if I'm just saying I'm right to die.
Susan Heaton Wright: I agree with you. And that what a what an enlightening
Susan Heaton Wright: perspective on on sharing opinions.
Susan Heaton Wright: We are in a world, I feel, that's very polarized.
Susan Heaton Wright: We've seen in the United States how, you
Susan Heaton Wright: know, with the election, 2 very
Susan Heaton Wright: differing sides. And even here in the United Kingdom,
Susan Heaton Wright: particularly with, dare I say, the b word, Brexit, there
Susan Heaton Wright: are still people that are, you know, you mention
Susan Heaton Wright: something and and you're almost
Susan Heaton Wright: working walking on, eggshells
Susan Heaton Wright: thinking, oh my goodness, I better not say that. Better not have an opinion
Susan Heaton Wright: because the other this person's gonna just far
Susan Heaton Wright: away. I I remember 2 years ago
Susan Heaton Wright: somebody that I've known for 17, 18 years, I
Susan Heaton Wright: saw her in the library as one does.
Susan Heaton Wright: And she was, you know, concerned
Susan Heaton Wright: about Brexit and everything. And I said,
Susan Heaton Wright: well, you know, everybody has an opinion. Everyone has the
Susan Heaton Wright: right to voice their opinion in a vote.
Susan Heaton Wright: And she got terribly upset with me just for saying
Susan Heaton Wright: that and it ended up with sort of the
Susan Heaton Wright: finger in my face because she was so angry.
Susan Heaton Wright: And I I thought that was a real shame that we
Susan Heaton Wright: couldn't just have a conversation about
Susan Heaton Wright: opinions and values and the rights.
Susan Heaton Wright: It, it, it shocked me, and it and it
Susan Heaton Wright: was saddened me. Alright. Let's talk about
Joanne Lockwood: something contemporary. I mean, I'd like to think the Brexit remain
Joanne Lockwood: argument has been done. We we we we've left, it's done,
Joanne Lockwood: whatever. Yes. I've I've lost any energy.
Joanne Lockwood: The way I see the world is now we've just got to park it and
Joanne Lockwood: say whether you loved it or hated it, whether you still love it or still
Joanne Lockwood: hate it, it's happening, it's happened, let's make the
Joanne Lockwood: best of it. So to me that's kind of like a there's no point in
Joanne Lockwood: breaking that up. No, I agree with you. Where
Joanne Lockwood: we are now, I think, is in a if you look at where we are
Joanne Lockwood: today in 2020, 20 20 December and going
Joanne Lockwood: into 2021, is the the new debate around
Joanne Lockwood: vaccine, to have the vaccine or not have the vaccine. We again we've
Joanne Lockwood: got another set of populist perspectives
Joanne Lockwood: around not being vaccinated and around being vaccinated.
Joanne Lockwood: And that's going to be another major divisive issue in the country
Joanne Lockwood: where we're not going to be able to come to any consensus because the
Joanne Lockwood: people who advocate for vaccines are going to be very
Joanne Lockwood: paralyzed around what is anybody who doesn't want to be vaccinated must be
Joanne Lockwood: stupid. And anybody who is not wanting to be
Joanne Lockwood: vaccinated say well, you're misinformed about the dangers. And
Joanne Lockwood: everyone's got experts, everyone's got a scientist, everyone's got a professor,
Joanne Lockwood: everyone's got medium and Google and all these other
Joanne Lockwood: information sources. It's really hard to have a
Joanne Lockwood: have a conversation where people are actually asking questions to
Joanne Lockwood: say, okay, so I understand that you're worried about the
Joanne Lockwood: effects of a vaccine and you are concerned about having it for the
Joanne Lockwood: impact to your health in the future, so where did you get that information?
Joanne Lockwood: Where can I read about your concerns? Who
Joanne Lockwood: said that? Whereas all I wanna say is, no,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm happy to be vaccinated, therefore you must be
Joanne Lockwood: crazy if you don't want to be. And that doesn't work for anybody, does it?
Joanne Lockwood: We have this polarized Yes. Opinions, and there's no room for the
Joanne Lockwood: centrist discussion sometimes. Yeah. And, yeah, it's the it's
Susan Heaton Wright: that central discussion that
Susan Heaton Wright: could change the mind of those people that are
Susan Heaton Wright: polarized on either side?
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, I'm I'm trying to boil people down into into 3
Joanne Lockwood: broad camps. There's those who are gonna be vaccinated, yeah, I'm going to
Joanne Lockwood: be vaccinated, we're going to be vaccinated, we're all for it, anybody who doesn't must
Joanne Lockwood: be crazy. So there's the there's the front runners here, give me the vaccine, let's
Joanne Lockwood: do it. Then there's the people in the middle going, who
Joanne Lockwood: are more like the the herd, the sheep, yeah, I'll say well once once everybody
Joanne Lockwood: else hasn't dropped dead and it becomes kind of the thing to do,
Joanne Lockwood: I'll be in there 2nd, I'm waiting for I'll be 2nd, I don't wanna be
Joanne Lockwood: leading edge. If you've got the people who are the other side who maybe
Joanne Lockwood: can't have the vaccine for health reasons, autoimmune,
Joanne Lockwood: allergic to egg, whatever whatever reason from a health perspective, they can't.
Joanne Lockwood: Or they have a belief that the vaccine,
Joanne Lockwood: will cause them harm, which so there's that group of people. So
Joanne Lockwood: there's now talk about modifying the the app to better flag whether
Joanne Lockwood: you're vaccinated or not vaccinated. So I'm gonna end up with this this class
Joanne Lockwood: divide of unless you can prove you've been vaccinated, you
Joanne Lockwood: can't come into my shop, you can't come into the workplace, you can't travel on
Joanne Lockwood: the bus. Yeah, it's your right not to be vaccinated, it's not your
Joanne Lockwood: right to bring your unvaccinated body into this organization. And
Joanne Lockwood: then how do we how do we rationalise that from an inclusion,
Joanne Lockwood: belonging, and people perspective? That's if you're not
Joanne Lockwood: careful, that's where the country's headed, isn't it? A very, very difficult
Susan Heaton Wright: situation. And certainly, with vaccines for children,
Susan Heaton Wright: and that has been bubbling away since my son
Susan Heaton Wright: was a baby. The MMR
Susan Heaton Wright: stuff started when he was a baby.
Susan Heaton Wright: But I know that in France, they actually don't allow
Susan Heaton Wright: children to start school unless they've had a series
Susan Heaton Wright: of vaccinations. And yet over here, that was deemed to
Susan Heaton Wright: be improper. And I I would actually agree with
Susan Heaton Wright: that. I would be very uncomfortable if little kids
Susan Heaton Wright: who had no say in that were excluded from school.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. It's it's very fine. I I'm in my mid
Joanne Lockwood: fifties. I I was a pin cushion at school like most people.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. It was it was probably before, I'm not sure if it was
Joanne Lockwood: MMR at the time or whether I had the separate measles, rubella and
Joanne Lockwood: mumps as a separate. But I was doing polio, I've got
Joanne Lockwood: BCG, I've got I've doing this. I I was
Joanne Lockwood: I spent a brief time after leaving school in the in the armed forces in
Joanne Lockwood: the RAF. I had yellow fever, diphtheria. Yes, I had.
Joanne Lockwood: I went there for the full pin cushion over the first 3 years in the
Joanne Lockwood: RAF. And I've I've traveled to Hong Kong on business and another
Joanne Lockwood: place on business. One of the prerequisites is you should have,
Joanne Lockwood: hepatitis b jabs or yellow fever jabs or top ups
Joanne Lockwood: and I didn't take anything off it, I just went okay, it says on it
Joanne Lockwood: says on the guidelines I must go and get this jab before I go, poof,
Joanne Lockwood: check myself in, go and have it done. So people were
Joanne Lockwood: probably having these yellow fever people who are anti vaxxing are probably doing this
Joanne Lockwood: to go on holiday now. Yes. Cholera or you know, would you go
Joanne Lockwood: would you go would you go in a cholera zone without a cholera Joanne? Would
Joanne Lockwood: you go into a smallpox zone without a smallpox Jo? No, you wouldn't. But you're
Joanne Lockwood: happy to walk around the country in in what you think is safe
Joanne Lockwood: because we're we're we're first world. Yeah. It's clean here.
Susan Heaton Wright: It's it's bizarre. And and I'm I'm I'm gonna
Susan Heaton Wright: gossip now. One of one of my
Susan Heaton Wright: n, you know, NCT, the
Susan Heaton Wright: group, she's anti vaxx and she has,
Susan Heaton Wright: 4 children and has never vaccinated any of them.
Susan Heaton Wright: The first one, when he went to university, the first day he found the
Susan Heaton Wright: medical center and said, give me everything.
Joanne Lockwood: Hit me. Hit me here. I want every
Susan Heaton Wright: vaccination going. Yeah. I I mean, we
Joanne Lockwood: we started this talk right at the beginning about giving people a
Joanne Lockwood: voice and I think we should allow people who
Joanne Lockwood: have alternate views Yes. To not feel shouted down,
Joanne Lockwood: to express their concerns, to
Joanne Lockwood: say this worries me, this scares me'
Joanne Lockwood: and be willing to engage as a society to provide
Joanne Lockwood: education and awareness that can be heard because often
Joanne Lockwood: we end up, as I said, we end up with these 2 polarized camps. I
Susan Heaton Wright: agree with you. And people who want to find out more, feel they
Joanne Lockwood: can't step out of their echo chamber, their circle of friends,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, they everybody thinks like them, they all talk about this
Joanne Lockwood: And therefore to to to be curious in the, what if I change my mind
Joanne Lockwood: cap, am I gonna lose all my friends because everyone is so polarized? Yes.
Susan Heaton Wright: I agree. About you. Yes. And,
Susan Heaton Wright: I mean, certainly from my perspective, if if I were to
Susan Heaton Wright: talk to that woman about anti, you you
Susan Heaton Wright: know, vaccinations, she's very polarized and
Susan Heaton Wright: has a very strong opinion and I've always respected her for
Susan Heaton Wright: it even though I don't agree with her, on
Susan Heaton Wright: on that. But what I found
Susan Heaton Wright: is is that she got quite aggressive about that and was
Susan Heaton Wright: was actually really frightening other
Susan Heaton Wright: mothers into, not having vaccinations,
Susan Heaton Wright: without providing some proof around it.
Joanne Lockwood: So they've got this unshakable belief
Joanne Lockwood: of being right or or almost? Because doctor
Susan Heaton Wright: Google Google. Yeah. Or or or
Joanne Lockwood: adopting this role of of protector Yes. Of society and
Joanne Lockwood: therefore they know best therefore I must
Joanne Lockwood: but you can apply the same to the to the lay person being
Joanne Lockwood: pro vax couldn't you? They're trying to do exactly the same. So it's not
Joanne Lockwood: we're not we're not saying one person is more right or less right, we're just
Joanne Lockwood: saying that that's what happens, isn't it? We we get the 2 camps, the pro
Joanne Lockwood: and the against. Definitely.
Susan Heaton Wright: And, personally, I'm more inclined to listen
Susan Heaton Wright: to medical opinion on
Susan Heaton Wright: that. Perhaps not, if if if
Susan Heaton Wright: I'm being honest, perhaps not, the
Susan Heaton Wright: facts of the the pharmaceuticals because of course
Susan Heaton Wright: they've got a vested interest in it. But if you talk to
Susan Heaton Wright: medical professionals and, you you know, I've I've got a few friends who
Susan Heaton Wright: are working in the NHS and they're saying, this is a
Susan Heaton Wright: horrible disease. It's horrific.
Susan Heaton Wright: Please get vaccinated. To hear it
Susan Heaton Wright: from them is very interesting. But you don't
Joanne Lockwood: think with the rise of populism and the Internet that the
Joanne Lockwood: unquestionable authority of a medical professional
Joanne Lockwood: is now not being believed, is it? Oh, absolutely. Because
Susan Heaton Wright: because Lockwood Google says this. Yeah. And there's always
Joanne Lockwood: there's always there's always a doctor or professor that you can find
Joanne Lockwood: that speaks against it and suddenly well my
Joanne Lockwood: research I saw this article from a doctor and they said blah
Joanne Lockwood: blah blah And you don't know who this doctor is, you don't know where their
Joanne Lockwood: credentials are. I Yeah, I
Joanne Lockwood: appreciate that. I I remember a couple of years ago going down
Susan Heaton Wright: a sort of Google rabbit hole because somebody said to
Susan Heaton Wright: me that, your vocal folds
Susan Heaton Wright: could be paralyzed by beetroot
Susan Heaton Wright: juice. Now I it was something I'd never heard and,
Susan Heaton Wright: you know, I was a professional singer. It's the sort of thing that I
Susan Heaton Wright: would have heard if it had been truthful. But
Susan Heaton Wright: I I decided to do some research about it. And
Susan Heaton Wright: after a couple of hours, I found the source, and it was somebody that was
Susan Heaton Wright: in an into alternative medicine that
Susan Heaton Wright: was promoting juices to
Susan Heaton Wright: fight cancer. And one of the
Susan Heaton Wright: things which, you you know, and
Susan Heaton Wright: one of the things that he said was and one of the the
Susan Heaton Wright: downsides is that if you take, beet root
Susan Heaton Wright: juice that your vocal folds will be paralyzed. You
Susan Heaton Wright: won't be able to talk. But there was no evidence around that,
Susan Heaton Wright: but this was being quoted verbatim.
Susan Heaton Wright: So there there's an example. Yeah. There's lots about
Joanne Lockwood: that. Yeah. And, I mean, I I look
Joanne Lockwood: at maybe my own characteristics around being trans. There's lots
Joanne Lockwood: of experts who are passionate in both sides. There's
Joanne Lockwood: traditionists, there's all this and yeah, and
Joanne Lockwood: we have we dig out experts. And I think
Joanne Lockwood: there's a danger that in order to be unbiased,
Joanne Lockwood: and creating debate and letting all people speak, then what we can
Joanne Lockwood: often do is amplify voices that are minority voices
Joanne Lockwood: and suddenly give them credibility and credence, can't we? Particularly
Susan Heaton Wright: if they're the loudest person in the room. Yeah. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Exactly. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. And
Joanne Lockwood: that's what we we started talking about, it's about the extrovert and that energetic.
Joanne Lockwood: And and what the I mean, let's go back to the work you're doing with
Joanne Lockwood: organizations about being this superstar communicator and how you, how
Joanne Lockwood: Jo you work with people to, to give them a voice and give them presence.
Joanne Lockwood: Jo let's talk a bit about more about that. Well, one of the things that
Susan Heaton Wright: I, have done is create my own communications
Susan Heaton Wright: model, spoken communications model,
Susan Heaton Wright: and I identified 5 key areas that I believe
Susan Heaton Wright: are essential to be able to
Susan Heaton Wright: speak more effectively and with more
Susan Heaton Wright: impact. And the 5 areas are, audience,
Susan Heaton Wright: so, you know, the purpose of you speaking, understanding your
Susan Heaton Wright: audience, and I'm summarizing very briefly the
Susan Heaton Wright: content. And there are ways that you can construct your
Susan Heaton Wright: content Jo it's more impactful rather than somebody waffling
Susan Heaton Wright: on and everybody just gets lost in the meet you you
Susan Heaton Wright: you're going, yes. I get you on that
Susan Heaton Wright: one. Preparation of which, including,
Susan Heaton Wright: reading the agenda, but also managing your fear with that.
Susan Heaton Wright: I do a lot of work on managing fear. The performance
Susan Heaton Wright: side, so it's slightly different when it's virtual, but
Susan Heaton Wright: in face to face, obviously, there's more of a nonverbal
Susan Heaton Wright: communication impact taking place. But even on
Susan Heaton Wright: virtual, facial expressions a little bit with your gestures
Susan Heaton Wright: and certainly your body language make an impact. And then
Susan Heaton Wright: finally, the voice. And I don't mean about singing,
Susan Heaton Wright: I mean about I believe that you should speak so
Susan Heaton Wright: it's as easy as possible for other people to listen to
Susan Heaton Wright: you. So it's not hard work if you mumble
Susan Heaton Wright: or you've got you have, you you
Susan Heaton Wright: speak too fast. People are gonna switch off
Susan Heaton Wright: because it they're having to work very hard to listen to you.
Susan Heaton Wright: So thinking, but making it more impactful by
Susan Heaton Wright: actually having a bit of interest in your voice or a bit of
Susan Heaton Wright: passion because sometimes people are monotone. And
Susan Heaton Wright: again, the other people in the room will just switch
Susan Heaton Wright: off because we're humans. Yeah. That that
Joanne Lockwood: really resonates because I when I talk about communicating and I
Joanne Lockwood: often say it's incumbent on each of us to understand how
Joanne Lockwood: the other person wants to consume what you're saying. So you
Joanne Lockwood: can't always say to the other person you must change how you hear, I must
Joanne Lockwood: sometimes change how I speak to be understood. If you
Joanne Lockwood: don't hear what I'm saying, if I'm not if I'm not landing what I'm saying
Joanne Lockwood: correctly, I need to back off and Jo, okay, how can I deliver this
Joanne Lockwood: differently? Either different phraseology, different speech,
Joanne Lockwood: repeat, clarify, whatever that may be, rather than say,
Joanne Lockwood: oh, it's your fault for not hearing me. Exactly. Maybe it's my fault
Joanne Lockwood: for not speaking correctly. Yes. But also, if if you
Susan Heaton Wright: understand who your audience are, you know, if you think of a
Susan Heaton Wright: typical interdepartmental meeting, you might
Susan Heaton Wright: have IT, HR, you might have the lawyers
Susan Heaton Wright: there, the accountants, you've got marketing.
Susan Heaton Wright: You might have a whole range of different people who might have
Susan Heaton Wright: different terminology. They might speak
Susan Heaton Wright: a slightly different sub language. I don't think that's a
Susan Heaton Wright: word. But what we need to do in order for it
Susan Heaton Wright: to really make an impact is to modify the language
Susan Heaton Wright: we use and examples so that it it will be very
Susan Heaton Wright: easy for them to digest. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I I mean, I I I recognize that there's some people who want me to
Joanne Lockwood: get to the point. So I'll I'll start with the answer and then
Joanne Lockwood: explain it. Yeah. Other people want the explanation first and then
Joanne Lockwood: the answer. And when you're writing sales proposals is and
Joanne Lockwood: and you're trying to sell something, it's important to know which sort of person you're
Joanne Lockwood: talking to. Yes. And
Joanne Lockwood: other people just want a story first. They want you to wow them. Yeah. And
Joanne Lockwood: then you softwares them enough, and they'll they'll buy anything. Other people just gonna cut
Joanne Lockwood: to the chase. What are you selling? Okay. Do I want it? Yes or no?
Joanne Lockwood: Yes, I want it. Right now now I listen to you. Jo, yeah, it's it
Joanne Lockwood: really is understanding the audience. And when I talk
Joanne Lockwood: about DNI, I often say that we we need to bring everybody on this journey
Joanne Lockwood: together and recognize that there has to be a
Joanne Lockwood: business case because that's what the financial people want. Yes. There has to
Joanne Lockwood: be a a human fact because that's what the HR or
Joanne Lockwood: these people want. There has to be a strategy element because that's what the board
Joanne Lockwood: of directors wants. So we need to understand that this multi headed
Joanne Lockwood: beast needs to be sort of packaged up and communicated
Joanne Lockwood: different ways. Yes. I think what you're saying there
Joanne Lockwood: is is is the way I I talk about DNI about
Joanne Lockwood: including people in conversations. And I'm saying each person
Joanne Lockwood: communicates differently. Yes. Yeah. Oh, you know,
Susan Heaton Wright: there isn't and there is nothing wrong with
Susan Heaton Wright: having your own style of speaking, but being
Susan Heaton Wright: aware that modifying it just slightly
Susan Heaton Wright: sidestepping or changing the vocabulary that you
Susan Heaton Wright: use slightly so that you include people is
Susan Heaton Wright: very very powerful. I think the
Joanne Lockwood: other thing when we talk about power and privilege, one one of the things I
Joanne Lockwood: say is is is having power and privilege disinhibits
Joanne Lockwood: you. So you're less sensitive to the needs of others.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. You're more likely to be sensitive to your own needs. So often people we
Joanne Lockwood: find in power and privilege the leaders speak in the way they
Joanne Lockwood: want to speak without considering the others whereas if you're,
Joanne Lockwood: a subordinate, you would tend to have to adapt your talking to
Joanne Lockwood: upwards. Yes. And I think the power of a great leader is they adapt
Joanne Lockwood: their speaking downwards and they communicate so they can
Joanne Lockwood: be understood by everybody rather than just by their peers and that's the challenge,
Joanne Lockwood: isn't it? Absolutely. It's almost like
Susan Heaton Wright: having to take your your crown off and,
Susan Heaton Wright: put, you know, flat cap on for want of a better analogy
Susan Heaton Wright: Jo that you can be one of the people rather than the
Susan Heaton Wright: the absolute star. Yeah. I mean, one of
Joanne Lockwood: the someone once said that if you you've got the the the daily
Joanne Lockwood: newspapers are designed for a reading age of 9 or 10 or something
Joanne Lockwood: because they're really trying to they're putting it using simple language, they're not
Joanne Lockwood: using they're not using obscure words or long words or big hard
Joanne Lockwood: sentences cause they recognize their average audience wants
Joanne Lockwood: to consume it quickly, they want to get straight to the point and sometimes you
Joanne Lockwood: have to put it in that 9 or 10 year old language so that it's
Joanne Lockwood: very easy for everybody. Absolutely. And when I speak and
Joanne Lockwood: I train, I'm always thinking about don't over complicate it,
Joanne Lockwood: start basic, Build up. If people want if people want more depth,
Joanne Lockwood: they'll ask. But otherwise, they'll go away. Okay. Okay. I get
Joanne Lockwood: that. I get that. Thanks. And they they will switch off if it's
Susan Heaton Wright: too complicated or if if the,
Susan Heaton Wright: you know, terminology used or even if it's
Susan Heaton Wright: something, you know, loads of data or or
Susan Heaton Wright: compliance, people will naturally switch off and then they'll
Susan Heaton Wright: fill in the gaps with what they think should be there.
Susan Heaton Wright: So Oh, classic classic example, isn't it? The, the Downing
Joanne Lockwood: Street COVID daily updates,
Joanne Lockwood: the death by PowerPoint, we've got all these experts, all these
Joanne Lockwood: people talking about stuff, you know, Boris comes on and speaks for 20 minutes,
Joanne Lockwood: and doesn't get to the point. What you want to say
Joanne Lockwood: to me, Boris would come on and say look, deaths up,
Joanne Lockwood: hospital up, missions up, infections up, right, we've
Joanne Lockwood: got a problem here, this is how we're going to solve it. But he beats
Joanne Lockwood: around the bush for 20 minutes and then then he doesn't land that
Joanne Lockwood: very well, he's with his grasp and all these all these government
Joanne Lockwood: scientists are talking through these graphs going get to the point, get to the point,
Joanne Lockwood: I can't read dividing, you're going next IP, next IP, I'm gonna go
Joanne Lockwood: right. So what you're saying is deaths are up, hospital admissions
Joanne Lockwood: are up, virus infections are up, we've got to say it now and this is
Joanne Lockwood: how we're gonna do it. All I I just need that in a graph, I
Joanne Lockwood: just that's all I need to know. Yeah. How am I how are we gonna
Joanne Lockwood: do this? Okay. I get it. But all this waffle is is I
Joanne Lockwood: think this creating confusion because people don't understand what the message is.
Susan Heaton Wright: And They've got no idea. He he's just,
Susan Heaton Wright: yeah, a disaster when it comes to public speaking, in my
Susan Heaton Wright: opinion. In my opinion, he is somebody he's a
Susan Heaton Wright: typical journalist who has got a Dictaphone and is
Susan Heaton Wright: giving his latest copy, and then an editor will
Susan Heaton Wright: edit out all of the mumblings to make something
Susan Heaton Wright: impactful for the newspaper. Yeah. I think
Joanne Lockwood: the style works well when you're trying to rally the troops, you know, you're trying
Joanne Lockwood: to get people to to follow you and march and do something and you're trying
Joanne Lockwood: to inspire people. And I mean, some of his metaphors are allowed
Joanne Lockwood: they're really, really strange and very born out of maybe his
Joanne Lockwood: his public school background. That's right. When you're a leader, you
Joanne Lockwood: need to better you need to better still concise information and deliver it so that
Joanne Lockwood: so that people can understand it. And
Joanne Lockwood: he's not great at that. He's used to he's used to debating societies. He's used
Joanne Lockwood: to, as you say, talking to press, not not selling
Joanne Lockwood: bad news. And he was And and tough and tough choices.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. He's desperate to be liked as well. So
Susan Heaton Wright: it's it's hard for him to share
Susan Heaton Wright: bad news. It's almost as if he's waffling to
Susan Heaton Wright: make it a little bit more palatable, but it's no use And
Joanne Lockwood: the government advisers, they've got all of their spreadsheets, all of their graphs that all
Joanne Lockwood: their team have been producing to their their internal documents.
Joanne Lockwood: And these internal documents are just too much information, TMI, they need to be
Joanne Lockwood: distilled down into this this one or
Joanne Lockwood: two points of 'right, that's this is where we are today. This is
Joanne Lockwood: where we need to be. This is how we're gonna get there. Got you. Yeah.
Susan Heaton Wright: This what this is what we're going to do because
Susan Heaton Wright: our project predictions are that if we don't, then we
Susan Heaton Wright: won't be able to have Christmas. This is why people don't necessarily
Joanne Lockwood: believe the message is because they're not being communicated in a way where
Joanne Lockwood: they trust the messenger. And that's the problem, isn't it? Definitely.
Susan Heaton Wright: And this comes back to the point where we're starting here about being a superstar
Joanne Lockwood: communicator and speaking so you can be understood. Yes. And
Joanne Lockwood: recognizing when you're you're not being understood how to adapt your style, isn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? Definitely. And in the case of those scientists who are
Susan Heaton Wright: obviously incredibly intelligent, they've got
Susan Heaton Wright: some incredible information to impart. How
Susan Heaton Wright: can you make that easier while not having those bloody spreadsheets
Susan Heaton Wright: and slides that you needed PhD
Susan Heaton Wright: in, PowerPoint explanations
Susan Heaton Wright: to be able to understand breaking it down and why their
Susan Heaton Wright: comms department hasn't done that is extraordinary.
Susan Heaton Wright: You and me need to go in there and sort them out.
Joanne Lockwood: I've got a friend who's a, a guy who,
Joanne Lockwood: trains people on on producing PowerPoint slides and, up your
Joanne Lockwood: presentation. David, yeah and I love the way
Joanne Lockwood: he the Facebook group I think we're both a member of he, he posted his
Joanne Lockwood: take on how the government slide should be I thought that was absolutely
Joanne Lockwood: incredible that, in one slide he basically summed
Joanne Lockwood: up the entire government position of what we should be doing
Joanne Lockwood: In a very easy to understand, I get it. Here's here's here's where we are.
Joanne Lockwood: Here's where we're going. This is where we need to be. Got you. Right? I
Joanne Lockwood: get it. I'm buying it. I'm having some of that. And
Joanne Lockwood: it's yeah, I think it's it's all comes back to, you know, what we're talking
Joanne Lockwood: about, how to communicate better. It's not just
Joanne Lockwood: about vocal language, it's also about
Joanne Lockwood: written presentation, the visual side Yes. The whole
Joanne Lockwood: package of how we present data and information, isn't it? Yeah.
Susan Heaton Wright: Once or twice, people have given me feedback.
Susan Heaton Wright: Oh, you you speak very in a very straightforward way.
Susan Heaton Wright: You you make everything into small easy
Susan Heaton Wright: blocks. And at first, you know, my ego thought, oh
Susan Heaton Wright: my goodness. They don't think I'm bright. But actually, when I
Susan Heaton Wright: yeah. They think I'm simple.
Susan Heaton Wright: I I went back to them and said, oh, do elaborate more. And they said,
Susan Heaton Wright: Jo. You make it very easy. We can just take it
Susan Heaton Wright: in. And do you think that it we can
Susan Heaton Wright: get frightened by coming across in a
Susan Heaton Wright: very straightforward way? That we feel that we need
Susan Heaton Wright: to embellish things to show that we are an expert?
Joanne Lockwood: Some people may. I mean, my natural style is to use lots of similes,
Joanne Lockwood: metaphors, and storytelling. So I I would always
Joanne Lockwood: build a story into the message I'm trying to create Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: Through some sort of lived experience or something that resonates. I told you
Joanne Lockwood: about the Strong Opinions Weekly held and told you about that story around that. Rather
Joanne Lockwood: than just put that slide up and say there we are, I want to give
Joanne Lockwood: you the feeling, the impact, the understanding, so take it from your head into
Joanne Lockwood: your heart type of thing, bring the emotional connection to that way you
Joanne Lockwood: remember the feeling of that. And what all that Jo said that, when
Joanne Lockwood: she explained that, that really made sense to me. So sometimes
Joanne Lockwood: packaging it in a story because we're storytellers as a
Joanne Lockwood: species, we storytell, we passed before we had TV, video and
Joanne Lockwood: YouTube, we used to sit around the fire and tell each other stories to pass
Joanne Lockwood: down the legacy and the history to each other through storytelling.
Susan Heaton Wright: Folk song and folk Joanne is traditional one. We also have a narrative.
Susan Heaton Wright: Yes. Certainly, within content, I do a lot on
Susan Heaton Wright: storytelling and different lengths of them,
Susan Heaton Wright: pick up literally because of the idea that
Susan Heaton Wright: you Joanne, it is those feelings and
Susan Heaton Wright: those series of feelings, we all remember
Susan Heaton Wright: how we feel when we hear it. And that's
Susan Heaton Wright: what we need to so in the case of the the COVID
Susan Heaton Wright: daily things, if they were to
Susan Heaton Wright: add some little stories, some little anecdotes,
Susan Heaton Wright: as opposed to those, you know, PhD level
Susan Heaton Wright: diagrams, then people would remember that.
Susan Heaton Wright: We know that. We we know that. Completely. Completely. Completely.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I completely agree with that. So I'm dying to ask you before we wrap
Joanne Lockwood: up about your your prize
Joanne Lockwood: giving opera singer history. Tell us a bit more about being an opera
Joanne Lockwood: singer, I mean, I've got to ask. It was madness
Susan Heaton Wright: really, I look back on the whole thing
Susan Heaton Wright: because what you won't know is that
Susan Heaton Wright: I, and this is completely separate, but I was involved
Susan Heaton Wright: in a very serious car accident with life changing injuries,
Susan Heaton Wright: spinal injury, head injury, things like that, that took a long time to get
Susan Heaton Wright: over. I'm very lucky to be able to walk and be
Susan Heaton Wright: here, actually to be alive, so I'm incredibly lucky.
Susan Heaton Wright: But I was invited to, by a friend. Why
Susan Heaton Wright: don't you come along to one of these big choirs,
Susan Heaton Wright: to sing? So, and I as I've said before, I
Susan Heaton Wright: was one of those quiet people at the back, told never to
Susan Heaton Wright: show off even though I'd been told I'd got this lovely voice, nobody at the
Susan Heaton Wright: back. So I turned up for this audition. I
Susan Heaton Wright: had to audition for it. And it happened that there was a
Susan Heaton Wright: now famous conductor who was on the panel. And he said
Susan Heaton Wright: to me, Susan, you've got a remarkable voice. I really think that you
Susan Heaton Wright: should get it trained. Now,
Susan Heaton Wright: at the time, physically and mentally, I wasn't in such a good
Susan Heaton Wright: place, understandably, but I did start having
Susan Heaton Wright: singing lessons. I didn't contact him, which now I
Susan Heaton Wright: would probably have done for advice. But then it
Susan Heaton Wright: became apparent that that I should go to music college. And
Susan Heaton Wright: even though I was slightly older, I got the scholarship and I
Susan Heaton Wright: was a jobbing singer. So I was hugely lucky with some
Susan Heaton Wright: of the things that I did. So I did roles like
Susan Heaton Wright: Pamina and Michaela and Tatiana
Susan Heaton Wright: and, Mazenka, the barter bride
Susan Heaton Wright: and things like that. And it was a
Susan Heaton Wright: real privilege. I sang in
Susan Heaton Wright: throughout UK as a soloist on the radio TV,
Susan Heaton Wright: places like Durham Cathedral, which I went to university
Susan Heaton Wright: in Durham. So to go back there was amazing. My old
Susan Heaton Wright: tutor was there and she said, Susan, you were very quiet at university.
Susan Heaton Wright: I can't believe it. And, over
Susan Heaton Wright: in France and Italy, I got a scholarship to study in Italy
Susan Heaton Wright: as well, and Spain and the United
Susan Heaton Wright: States. And I did concert work as well. I was
Susan Heaton Wright: so lucky. And then
Susan Heaton Wright: yes. And, you know, I went from that quiet kid
Susan Heaton Wright: to someone singing in front of
Susan Heaton Wright: 3,000 people as a soloist with an orchestra, a
Susan Heaton Wright: conductor probably going, oh my god, everything's going wrong, and you have to be the
Susan Heaton Wright: leader to
Susan Heaton Wright: get everybody, to get the music going on. Because opera is
Joanne Lockwood: all about this presence on stage and the power of the
Joanne Lockwood: voice, you can't be looking at somebody else, you've got all this facial
Joanne Lockwood: expression and concentration in it. Yes. But the
Susan Heaton Wright: same for concert work. I mean, you know, it's not as extreme, but,
Susan Heaton Wright: you know, you something
Susan Heaton Wright: sometimes have to take over as a leader in a nonverbal
Susan Heaton Wright: way, to to reassure everybody else
Susan Heaton Wright: when there are mistakes going on. Whether that's
Susan Heaton Wright: colleagues, you know, colleague might have come in little bit late
Susan Heaton Wright: or there was a a mistake. And and what I was taught, and I
Susan Heaton Wright: think it's a really good message, is you are
Susan Heaton Wright: responsible for everything yourself. You can't go around
Susan Heaton Wright: blaming someone else if the the oboe comes in late or the
Susan Heaton Wright: tenor makes a mistake. And, you know,
Susan Heaton Wright: if you're in a hole, you've got to get out of it.
Joanne Lockwood: That is a great lesson in life. Personal accountability. Oh, absolutely. Accept
Joanne Lockwood: responsibility. If you're late, it's nobody's fault but your own, you could have left
Joanne Lockwood: earlier. Yeah. If you miss something, it's my fault, I could have done
Joanne Lockwood: something instead. If I knew the risk of being late, I could have
Joanne Lockwood: caught an earlier trend, I could have come the night before, I could have done
Joanne Lockwood: a whole lot of things in my control. Yeah. So don't blame it
Joanne Lockwood: on this nebulous, it wasn't my fault. Yes. But actually, you
Joanne Lockwood: could have Joanne, you could have planned to drive
Joanne Lockwood: early in case you got a puncture. Yeah. You could have you could have planned
Joanne Lockwood: it to if there was a traffic jam, if there was something canceled, you could
Joanne Lockwood: have had some contingency, you have the power to do that.
Joanne Lockwood: Absolutely. Therefore, you can't blame it on somebody else. And it's like, no. I I
Joanne Lockwood: get accountability. Personal accountability is is very important. And and you
Susan Heaton Wright: you know, the it it was a fellow PSA person
Susan Heaton Wright: because we're both in the PSA who actually said to me, you know, what
Susan Heaton Wright: what you have your leadership experience
Susan Heaton Wright: there, and obviously I've I've I've been the leader of my music company as
Susan Heaton Wright: well, it's quite unique and yet it is
Susan Heaton Wright: so valid within the corporate world too
Susan Heaton Wright: because you're very, very visible. I I'm just thinking as
Joanne Lockwood: you're talking about being a singer, the way you were trained
Joanne Lockwood: and the performances you did, you you
Joanne Lockwood: found your voice. I mean, you have you had your voice and you found it
Joanne Lockwood: and you shared it. Yeah. So you're used to you're used to having a voice
Joanne Lockwood: and being in front of people now. Yeah. Absolutely. And I had to push
Susan Heaton Wright: myself, really push myself to
Susan Heaton Wright: be comfortable center stage and to
Susan Heaton Wright: accept that it was okay to get that acclaim.
Susan Heaton Wright: Jo very We we should we should carry on talking for another hour because I
Joanne Lockwood: I had to find my own voice about 4 years ago.
Joanne Lockwood: And I went from a life where I was quite happy standing up in front
Joanne Lockwood: of people and talking and speaking after their speaking and doing other
Joanne Lockwood: things to a world where I'd lost confidence in my
Joanne Lockwood: own identity and whether I had a voice
Joanne Lockwood: that would be listened to. And so I went through a whole reinvention myself 4
Joanne Lockwood: or 5 years ago and Jo to hear that you kind of emerged
Joanne Lockwood: out this opera singing with a voice, I
Joanne Lockwood: remember standing up at a PSA meeting and doing the speaker factor 1
Joanne Lockwood: year. And that was the first time I'd I'd ever stood up in front of
Joanne Lockwood: a group of professionals in a dress and spoke.
Joanne Lockwood: And I okay, I crashed and burned, I wasn't that great. But I
Joanne Lockwood: suddenly realized what what bad felt like. And I thought I'm never gonna feel bad
Joanne Lockwood: or like that ever again. And that was it was a great learning exercise.
Joanne Lockwood: But yeah, and I get it completely about that
Joanne Lockwood: anxiety of putting yourself out there when you
Joanne Lockwood: or or anything inside you saying, I'm I'm gonna be rejected. I'm gonna, people aren't
Joanne Lockwood: gonna like me or I wanna I wanna hide. Yes.
Susan Heaton Wright: I you know, one thing that I've learned I don't know if you've
Susan Heaton Wright: done the, professional, the
Susan Heaton Wright: neuroscience course. I think you might have Doctor Linda Shaw. Jo. I
Joanne Lockwood: I haven't done that. I I she's been she's been on the podcast actually. She
Joanne Lockwood: was in episode 1. So if you'll listen to that. Well, I did it, and
Susan Heaton Wright: it actually there were so many moments because,
Susan Heaton Wright: a lot of what I what I do because I do,
Susan Heaton Wright: address managing the fear. And with with the journey that I had, I'm sure
Susan Heaton Wright: you can appreciate that I've got quite a few little tips
Susan Heaton Wright: and tricks up the way. But doing the
Susan Heaton Wright: course made me realize that scientifically I was doing the right thing Jo
Susan Heaton Wright: I could back it up with scientific evidence, which
Susan Heaton Wright: is part of my values. I like to be able to
Susan Heaton Wright: demonstrate those things. But,
Susan Heaton Wright: one of the things that I find very useful for anxiety and thinking,
Susan Heaton Wright: oh, everyone's gonna hate me, you know, they're not gonna love me.
Susan Heaton Wright: You know, that little voice that's going in there, that's your ego,
Susan Heaton Wright: basically. And if you can you know this, but if you
Susan Heaton Wright: can start saying, and I'm gonna be very theatrical and dramatic
Susan Heaton Wright: diva like, I'm serving my audience.
Susan Heaton Wright: I'm here to share some fantastic information.
Susan Heaton Wright: And all of a sudden that little voice goes, oh, oh, my
Susan Heaton Wright: ego is not being, fed now.
Susan Heaton Wright: And it it it when you're focusing on the audience and,
Susan Heaton Wright: serving them for want of a better word, it can take a lot
Susan Heaton Wright: of pressure off you. Yeah. I I agree, Kabin.
Joanne Lockwood: I I see myself as a a performer in a
Joanne Lockwood: way. I'm there to entertain. Yes. And through
Joanne Lockwood: through entertainment I will educate, enlighten, empower or whatever
Joanne Lockwood: words you want to use. Yes. But I'm there to communicate
Joanne Lockwood: through my own passion and that's Jo as much as someone's an actor
Joanne Lockwood: on the stage, a singer, a rock star, whatever they may
Joanne Lockwood: be, my my my delivery is is the way I
Joanne Lockwood: speak, the way I inspire. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a performance.
Susan Heaton Wright: Absolutely. And we mustn't forget that.
Susan Heaton Wright: I I whether it is that you
Susan Heaton Wright: are delivering a 2 minute presentation within
Susan Heaton Wright: a meeting or a seminar excuse me. That
Susan Heaton Wright: is a performance. Even when somebody contributes to
Susan Heaton Wright: a meeting, it's a performance.
Joanne Lockwood: You are you're effectively trying to sell you and your opinion and
Joanne Lockwood: your beliefs so that other people will take notice or
Joanne Lockwood: listen or react or or instigate something as a result of it. Otherwise, your
Joanne Lockwood: point, why communicate in the first place? Yeah. And that goes back to
Susan Heaton Wright: purpose.
Joanne Lockwood: Right. Well, we've we've come to the end, and we we could we could
Joanne Lockwood: literally be talking for another hour. I'm just in danger of
Joanne Lockwood: starting another part of the conversation. So maybe there's opportunity for me to cover
Susan Heaton Wright: again. We could carry on. Or maybe I come on to
Joanne Lockwood: your podcast and you tell us about, tell us about your
Joanne Lockwood: podcast, because you've got your own podcast on your own. Yes, and you must come
Susan Heaton Wright: on mine. My podcast is called Superstar Communicator,
Susan Heaton Wright: and I focus on spoken communication,
Susan Heaton Wright: different aspects of that. I often have people that come
Susan Heaton Wright: on, that are experts in
Susan Heaton Wright: their own field or they've been very successful in their
Susan Heaton Wright: roles. And we talk about how spoken communication
Susan Heaton Wright: has aided them in their careers. Occasionally,
Susan Heaton Wright: I have, authors that come
Susan Heaton Wright: on. One recently was a chap called Fred
Susan Heaton Wright: Dust, and he has written a book
Susan Heaton Wright: called, and make remember it, Making
Susan Heaton Wright: Conversation. And he had some great ways of
Susan Heaton Wright: humanizing conversations Jo that they weren't just one
Susan Heaton Wright: way, but it was a two way
Susan Heaton Wright: process. So you could really connect with the person
Susan Heaton Wright: here in a human way. And the most recent one that I've
Susan Heaton Wright: had is with a lovely lady called Elizabeth Hartley,
Susan Heaton Wright: who is deaf, talking about how we need to be
Susan Heaton Wright: aware of including people with invisible
Susan Heaton Wright: disabilities in the conversation, what we can do to make
Susan Heaton Wright: it easier for them to feel part of the conversation.
Susan Heaton Wright: So that's really what it is. Well, it sounds really
Joanne Lockwood: interesting. So what's the best way for people to find your podcast? Is
Joanne Lockwood: it on your website or Itunes or Well, it is on my
Susan Heaton Wright: website, but also it is on Itunes and Spotify and all
Susan Heaton Wright: of the usual places. And I'd love to have
Susan Heaton Wright: feedback from you if you've got any ideas of people that I could talk
Susan Heaton Wright: to other than Joanne, who is now coming on my podcast.
Joanne Lockwood: So superstarcommunicator.como.co.uk
Susan Heaton Wright: is your website? My website is superstarcommunicator.com,
Susan Heaton Wright: and I'm always happy for people to connect with me on
Susan Heaton Wright: LinkedIn as well. So that's your LinkedIn is,
Joanne Lockwood: what what sure. So SusanHeatonWright.,
Joanne Lockwood: no hyphen, Heaton, h e a t o n w
Joanne Lockwood: r I g h t. That's right. Jo he's right, brilliant,
Joanne Lockwood: okay. Well I'm sure you you'd
Joanne Lockwood: welcome people connecting and saying hi and looking you up.
Joanne Lockwood: Well, thank you so much. There's been lots of stake inspiration there, it's
Joanne Lockwood: been a fascinating conversation as I said we could have carried on long today.
Joanne Lockwood: So huge thank you. Also, thank you to the listeners. Thank you to the
Joanne Lockwood: listeners. Thank you for listening this far. Thank you for tuning in. So please do
Joanne Lockwood: subscribe and to keep updated with future episodes of the Inclusion
Joanne Lockwood: Bites podcast, that's B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends, tell your
Joanne Lockwood: colleagues, tell everybody. I have a number of exciting guests
Joanne Lockwood: lined up that I'm sure you'll be equally inspired by over the next few weeks
Joanne Lockwood: months. If you'd like to be a guest, please let me
Joanne Lockwood: know. And of course, I always welcome feedback suggestions on how I can
Joanne Lockwood: improve. Please email me at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: And finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood, and it's been an absolute pleasure
Joanne Lockwood: to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time.
Joanne Lockwood: Bye.