WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:04.480 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host for the 2 00:00:04.480 --> 00:00:08.240 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number 3 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:11.735 of amazing people as simply having a conversation about the subject of 4 00:00:11.735 --> 00:00:15.415 inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a 5 00:00:15.415 --> 00:00:19.150 better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me 6 00:00:19.150 --> 00:00:22.769 in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seachangehappen.co.uk. 7 00:00:23.237 --> 00:00:23.955 Lockwood 8 00:00:26.945 --> 00:00:30.705 S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You'll be 9 00:00:30.705 --> 00:00:34.005 able to catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify, 10 00:00:34.625 --> 00:00:37.820 and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, 11 00:00:38.120 --> 00:00:40.780 grab a decaf, and let's get going. 12 00:00:42.200 --> 00:00:45.815 Today is episode 26. With the title 13 00:00:45.875 --> 00:00:49.555 "Me, My Hormones, and I", and I have the 14 00:00:49.555 --> 00:00:53.095 absolute honor and privilege to be joined by Lauren Chiren. 15 00:00:54.040 --> 00:00:57.800 Lauren describes herself as an executive coach and menopause 16 00:00:57.800 --> 00:01:01.480 at work specialists. When I asked Lauren to describe her 17 00:01:01.480 --> 00:01:03.835 superpower, she said, tenacity, 18 00:01:04.935 --> 00:01:08.775 getting shit done, especially those things that others barely talk 19 00:01:08.775 --> 00:01:12.590 about. Hello, Lauren. Hi, Jo. 20 00:01:13.610 --> 00:01:17.370 How are you? I'm good. Thank you. And yourself? Yeah. No. 21 00:01:17.370 --> 00:01:20.365 Really well. Really well. Thank you. It's really catch up. 22 00:01:20.825 --> 00:01:24.525 Fantastic. So, Lauren, "Me, My Hormones, and I", 23 00:01:24.665 --> 00:01:27.759 what's that about? Tell us How? That's, 24 00:01:28.240 --> 00:01:31.619 that's really interesting. Well, to me, it was quite interesting. I 25 00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:34.979 would like to take you back in 5th November 2014. 26 00:01:37.155 --> 00:01:40.775 I was called into meeting with my boss, which in itself was quite unusual 27 00:01:40.915 --> 00:01:43.955 because normally we caught up in between meetings on the way in and out of 28 00:01:43.955 --> 00:01:47.590 work. And I was also quite excited because it was my birthday. 29 00:01:48.370 --> 00:01:51.190 So I thought he had something in the store for me. 30 00:01:52.005 --> 00:01:55.685 However, I wasn't prepared for this surprise that he did deliver when I went into 31 00:01:55.685 --> 00:01:59.285 his office. The conversation, which I shall 32 00:01:59.285 --> 00:02:03.040 abbreviate for, you went along the lines of You're walking around those 33 00:02:03.040 --> 00:02:06.720 places if you've got the weight of the world on your shoulders. It's not exactly 34 00:02:06.720 --> 00:02:09.460 becoming of a female leader in this organization. 35 00:02:11.894 --> 00:02:15.495 And you were happier when you did that personal 36 00:02:15.495 --> 00:02:19.175 trainer thing you used to do. So perhaps you ought to have a think 37 00:02:19.175 --> 00:02:22.850 about that. Well, let me tell you whatever self esteem or 38 00:02:22.850 --> 00:02:26.550 self confidence I had before that meeting was down in 39 00:02:27.330 --> 00:02:30.475 a dark, dark place for the time of stepped out. And I knew I had 40 00:02:30.475 --> 00:02:33.515 to go and get some space between myself and the office, and I worked for 41 00:02:33.515 --> 00:02:37.355 home, from home for a little while. I took my son a 42 00:02:37.355 --> 00:02:40.840 holiday for a few days. And during that holiday, I 43 00:02:40.900 --> 00:02:44.340 laughed, joked, sang, built snow castles, and 44 00:02:44.340 --> 00:02:47.875 Iglooze, had an absolute bowl with my eight year old were in 45 00:02:47.875 --> 00:02:51.315 Iceland and slept like a log every night on the last night of the 46 00:02:51.315 --> 00:02:55.075 holiday as he fell asleep. I sat bought 47 00:02:55.075 --> 00:02:58.580 upright in my bed and burst into tears. It 48 00:02:58.580 --> 00:03:01.480 suddenly dawned on me what my boss was trying to tell me. 49 00:03:02.500 --> 00:03:06.254 He was basically saying that I was a shadow of my former self, that I 50 00:03:06.254 --> 00:03:10.015 wasn't behaving in a way that he was used to. And when 51 00:03:10.015 --> 00:03:13.819 I looked back, I realized I hadn't slept for 18 months I 52 00:03:13.819 --> 00:03:17.439 was exhausted. I was kind of wired and tired at the same time 53 00:03:17.819 --> 00:03:21.635 all day, every day. I was working longer and harder. I was 54 00:03:21.635 --> 00:03:25.235 training really hard for a marathon. I was doing a full time 55 00:03:25.235 --> 00:03:29.049 job with teams in America, India, and the UK. I 56 00:03:29.049 --> 00:03:32.650 delivered regulatory change projects for financial services, and I 57 00:03:32.650 --> 00:03:36.329 thrived in my work. But I was finding I'd be sitting in a meeting 58 00:03:36.329 --> 00:03:39.715 and you know, planning planning's fundamentals is what I do. 59 00:03:39.715 --> 00:03:43.335 Right? But at setting a meeting, I choose 15 60 00:03:43.395 --> 00:03:46.830 different sentences to describe the work plan because I couldn't get it out of my 61 00:03:46.830 --> 00:03:50.670 head. And my memory was shot. I couldn't recall names. 62 00:03:50.670 --> 00:03:54.325 I couldn't remember which meeting I had to be in and when. I had 63 00:03:54.325 --> 00:03:58.005 self esteem issues, I had palpitations, anxiety attacks, all sorts of 64 00:03:58.005 --> 00:04:01.450 things, and I just thought I had completely lost it. 65 00:04:02.010 --> 00:04:05.530 So ultimately, I left my job thinking of the early onset dementia in my early 66 00:04:05.530 --> 00:04:08.890 forties. So you can imagine my 67 00:04:08.890 --> 00:04:12.405 surprise when my GP told me I had just been through an early 68 00:04:12.405 --> 00:04:15.705 menopause. I was basically the happiest menopausal 69 00:04:15.924 --> 00:04:19.144 woman in Bristol. And literally in that moment, 70 00:04:19.769 --> 00:04:22.990 and knew what I had to do. And that was to make sure another employer 71 00:04:23.610 --> 00:04:26.970 lost their talent because of lack of 72 00:04:26.970 --> 00:04:30.735 understanding of a natural life stage Another woman 73 00:04:30.875 --> 00:04:34.715 could blindly walk into perimenopause and menopause without 74 00:04:34.715 --> 00:04:38.555 knowing what was going on. So that's kind of where it all started for 75 00:04:38.555 --> 00:04:42.030 me, Joe. Wow. That's a a 76 00:04:42.030 --> 00:04:45.790 story. I mean, this company you're working for 6 years 77 00:04:45.790 --> 00:04:49.425 ago wasn't a small company. There's a big multinational organization, wasn't 78 00:04:49.425 --> 00:04:53.025 it was a large organization. And I think 79 00:04:53.025 --> 00:04:56.865 back then, organizations were not menopause savvy, we're not menopause 80 00:04:56.865 --> 00:05:00.680 aware. It wasn't something that was on the agenda. So I don't, 81 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:04.360 you know, it's not there's nothing about size of 82 00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:08.105 organization, or I think it's just we're we're living in very 83 00:05:08.345 --> 00:05:11.945 fast moving and changing times. And it's been 84 00:05:11.945 --> 00:05:15.545 great to, you know, have on my books, 85 00:05:15.545 --> 00:05:19.300 brilliant organizations now that are looking to make significant change 86 00:05:19.300 --> 00:05:22.980 and are really waking up the fact that there are more women in work now 87 00:05:22.980 --> 00:05:26.180 than ever before. We're working longer and later in our lives and holding more senior 88 00:05:26.180 --> 00:05:29.645 roles So we really need to change the landscape that we work in. 89 00:05:30.905 --> 00:05:34.665 So you you you're looking back here. You're not casting any blame. 90 00:05:34.665 --> 00:05:38.350 It was just contextually at that time 6 years ago, 91 00:05:38.490 --> 00:05:42.047 that was the way of the world. People didn't talk about it. It wasn't Wellbeing 92 00:05:42.090 --> 00:05:45.715 treated less fairly. Just they they were quite vital in 93 00:05:45.715 --> 00:05:49.315 their observations that you weren't the person you used to be. Absolutely. I 94 00:05:49.315 --> 00:05:52.240 think it was quite interesting that someone 95 00:05:53.099 --> 00:05:56.939 who's supposedly leading other people, bright, intelligent, etcetera, 96 00:05:56.939 --> 00:06:00.460 capable. I'd had an award, and my bonus the week before. So all the 97 00:06:00.460 --> 00:06:03.845 signals were but things were going well. So that 98 00:06:03.845 --> 00:06:07.465 conversation really was like a blow out of the blue for me, but it was 99 00:06:08.005 --> 00:06:11.819 odd you know, to to not know what you're going through and just 100 00:06:11.819 --> 00:06:15.500 to put that into context, I was on I had my son just before 101 00:06:15.500 --> 00:06:18.585 his 38 and I was on the concept of pill that meant I didn't have 102 00:06:18.585 --> 00:06:22.365 a monthly cycle. So I had no idea that my, my period had stopped. 103 00:06:23.065 --> 00:06:26.810 So I didn't know what to look out for I hadn't had the conversation with 104 00:06:26.810 --> 00:06:30.650 my mom. I didn't have anyone else around me, you know, late diarities, early forties 105 00:06:30.650 --> 00:06:34.350 going through perry or menopause. I didn't even know what perry menopause was. 106 00:06:34.855 --> 00:06:38.555 So, you know, as an employee, you've got responsibility 107 00:06:38.855 --> 00:06:42.535 to look out for yourself and be on top form doing everything that you can 108 00:06:42.535 --> 00:06:46.280 to make sure that you're fit for work. And I believe an employer has got 109 00:06:46.280 --> 00:06:49.979 a responsibility to create the culture and the environment that is entirely inclusive 110 00:06:50.039 --> 00:06:53.820 and that you can bring as much of yourself to workers as appropriate. 111 00:06:54.815 --> 00:06:58.575 So, yeah. For sure. I completely agree. 112 00:06:58.575 --> 00:07:02.415 And and the last 6 years, the world of work has come a 113 00:07:02.415 --> 00:07:06.200 long way in rate, doesn't it? It's we won the clock back that far, 114 00:07:06.580 --> 00:07:10.345 then many employers hadn't even thought about this Wellbeing 115 00:07:10.419 --> 00:07:14.095 inclusive, you know, inclusion Wellbeing, diversity wasn't really on the top of 116 00:07:14.095 --> 00:07:17.854 most agendas. It was business as usual, get stuff 117 00:07:17.854 --> 00:07:21.534 done, and being nice to people wasn't really on the agendas, 118 00:07:21.534 --> 00:07:25.270 really. No. I think I've, I've been very, I mean, I want 119 00:07:25.270 --> 00:07:29.030 career number 4, and I've been very fortunate to always do work that 120 00:07:29.030 --> 00:07:32.615 I've loved. However, I never had any 121 00:07:32.615 --> 00:07:36.295 challenges with monthly cycles. I never had any challenges when I wanted to get 122 00:07:36.295 --> 00:07:39.960 pregnant, getting pregnant. I did have a tricky pregnancy because I was offered 123 00:07:39.960 --> 00:07:43.640 termination at 6 months, and that meant that there was a 124 00:07:43.640 --> 00:07:47.294 lot of stress around the continuation. And just for context, 125 00:07:47.294 --> 00:07:50.835 my son is now 14 and a big strapping lab will always go underline 126 00:07:50.974 --> 00:07:54.514 medical conditions. You know, the, the children's 127 00:07:54.660 --> 00:07:58.500 home Bristol is our safe place. And that, that, that's 128 00:07:58.500 --> 00:08:02.260 been amazing. However, even when 129 00:08:02.260 --> 00:08:05.365 I was working, if he was critically ill and I was by bedside and the 130 00:08:05.365 --> 00:08:08.565 hospital. I sold my laptop on doing my meetings. I never took my foot off 131 00:08:08.565 --> 00:08:11.525 the pedal. I didn't think because I was a mom and my son was ill. 132 00:08:11.525 --> 00:08:15.270 Now was that the business creating that culture? Was that me putting 133 00:08:15.270 --> 00:08:18.310 my the pressure myself? You know, that that's a debate that I think we could 134 00:08:18.310 --> 00:08:21.050 probably spend hours on. However, 135 00:08:22.275 --> 00:08:25.975 the, the whole menopause thing coming along just knocked me sideways. 136 00:08:26.115 --> 00:08:29.655 I nearly passed out twice in the office. It was bizarre, 137 00:08:30.035 --> 00:08:33.880 really bizarre. So you said that you you so 138 00:08:33.880 --> 00:08:37.240 you're putting pressure on yourself to work with these hours to deliver the projects and 139 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:40.954 be a full time mom and all the other things that went went around 140 00:08:40.954 --> 00:08:44.475 being you. You you said you're not you're not sure whether that was you putting 141 00:08:44.475 --> 00:08:47.820 extra pressure or that was kind of Were you in this kind of working like 142 00:08:47.820 --> 00:08:51.180 a man type environment where you, you know, want to feel like you were succeeding 143 00:08:51.180 --> 00:08:54.140 and keeping up, you felt, or you had to be that person, or was it 144 00:08:54.140 --> 00:08:57.805 a personal thing? So that was a really interesting expression, right, because 145 00:08:57.805 --> 00:09:01.644 working like a man, I've never ever had that 146 00:09:01.644 --> 00:09:04.329 phrase go through my head in my life. I started going out to work with 147 00:09:04.329 --> 00:09:07.930 my dad when I was 4. He had properties. We go around and empty the 148 00:09:07.930 --> 00:09:11.655 telephone boxes of the two p's and the pennies. He clicked the rent and 149 00:09:11.655 --> 00:09:15.335 would spend a Sunday, you know, counting out and he had another company doing 150 00:09:15.335 --> 00:09:19.175 contract cleaning. So I would help him as staff wages on a Sunday, and I've 151 00:09:19.175 --> 00:09:21.930 always just worked It's just some, it was a fun thing I did with my 152 00:09:21.930 --> 00:09:25.149 dad. I never considered it to be something masculine. 153 00:09:25.850 --> 00:09:29.565 And interestingly, the sports I've done like judo or and 154 00:09:29.565 --> 00:09:32.925 football, a lot of what I've done have always moved in a very male 155 00:09:32.925 --> 00:09:36.740 dominated environment. So I've never never questioned it. And the same with 156 00:09:36.740 --> 00:09:40.280 the jobs I've done, they've always been traditionally very male. 157 00:09:40.740 --> 00:09:44.280 And because I was very fortunate not to 158 00:09:45.264 --> 00:09:48.964 have any situations arise up until my early forties where 159 00:09:49.185 --> 00:09:52.940 I saw the difference myself. I never questioned it. 160 00:09:53.100 --> 00:09:56.940 But it was only in hindsight, which is always great, right, 161 00:09:56.940 --> 00:10:00.300 where I suddenly went, ah, it was only because of my 162 00:10:00.300 --> 00:10:03.325 hormones. That my behavior changed, 163 00:10:04.825 --> 00:10:08.185 but because I wasn't aware of it, I couldn't manage it, and I couldn't take 164 00:10:08.185 --> 00:10:12.020 control and make sure that I went on that journey with my eyes wide 165 00:10:12.020 --> 00:10:15.220 open and helped get the right help and support from the people around me to 166 00:10:15.220 --> 00:10:18.839 continue doing that. I didn't stop being bright, intelligent, or capable. 167 00:10:19.455 --> 00:10:23.214 Oh, it felt like I had, but my, I didn't lose those skills knowledge and 168 00:10:23.214 --> 00:10:27.055 experience, right? So it was just about how do you change 169 00:10:27.055 --> 00:10:30.820 that masculine environment that 170 00:10:30.820 --> 00:10:34.660 women tended to step into around about the 2nd World War when we 171 00:10:34.660 --> 00:10:38.305 started really entering the workforce on mass, How do you change 172 00:10:38.305 --> 00:10:42.084 that which we've stepped into and kind of worn the mask or 173 00:10:42.305 --> 00:10:46.060 molded ourselves into what there rather than trying to change it, which is 174 00:10:46.060 --> 00:10:49.820 what I think we're doing now. Because it's interesting also when he 175 00:10:49.820 --> 00:10:53.120 was talking at the beginning, he said your your 176 00:10:53.425 --> 00:10:57.105 managers said to you, not becoming of a female leader in our 177 00:10:57.105 --> 00:11:00.625 organization. So a female leader in organization, why not 178 00:11:00.625 --> 00:11:04.120 just a leader in our organization? So was that 179 00:11:04.120 --> 00:11:07.640 almost the fact that your, your manager was seeing you as a 180 00:11:07.640 --> 00:11:10.860 woman rather than just as a leader? Yeah. I'm 181 00:11:13.945 --> 00:11:17.625 I'm not sure, you know, the 182 00:11:17.625 --> 00:11:21.210 memory plays tricks with you, right? So I 183 00:11:21.210 --> 00:11:24.890 wonder if the more conscious I'm becoming of the differences of 184 00:11:24.890 --> 00:11:28.735 being a female, is my recollection 185 00:11:28.875 --> 00:11:32.315 or whether it was just the fact that there was a passing comment about being 186 00:11:32.315 --> 00:11:36.165 a leader in the organization. So I don't know if I would want to Wellbeing 187 00:11:36.154 --> 00:11:40.000 that too much. Okay. But you're now more hyper aware of 188 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:43.600 your own sense of self and reflected back on that 189 00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:47.415 time. And and almost like analyzing some 190 00:11:47.415 --> 00:11:51.115 of your behavior with hindsight and wondering whether these things came into play. 191 00:11:51.175 --> 00:11:54.210 Yeah. And I think I think specifically because I was a sole parent with a 192 00:11:54.210 --> 00:11:57.750 child with medical needs. I think that also made me 193 00:11:59.090 --> 00:12:02.895 think twice about ever considering taking time off or, you know, 194 00:12:02.895 --> 00:12:06.335 if I wanted to go and watch something at school or if my son was 195 00:12:06.335 --> 00:12:09.935 poorly, how did I make sure that I was, a, 196 00:12:09.935 --> 00:12:13.260 there for work and be there for him, 197 00:12:13.640 --> 00:12:17.420 which on reflection I'm afraid I don't agree with. 198 00:12:17.640 --> 00:12:21.255 However, that was my choice at the time, but I would too afraid or 199 00:12:21.255 --> 00:12:25.095 to I had too fixed a mask on to consider it ever 200 00:12:25.095 --> 00:12:28.795 turning around and saying, I need to take some time out because my son's ill. 201 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:32.000 Or I need to take some time out because my son's going to be in 202 00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:35.440 an event. And it just never crossed my mind, but that was 203 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:39.235 something I could do. I didn't know how to ask for help and support. I 204 00:12:39.235 --> 00:12:42.355 didn't want to be seen as weak because I didn't want to give anyone any 205 00:12:42.355 --> 00:12:46.115 ammunition. And these are all things in 206 00:12:46.115 --> 00:12:49.360 hindsight I realized was because I was trying to fit into an environment 207 00:12:50.060 --> 00:12:53.519 that was not necessarily set up for 208 00:12:53.740 --> 00:12:57.075 someone dealing with the things I was having to deal with You know, this is 209 00:12:57.075 --> 00:13:00.835 way before menopause came along, but ultimately, it's 210 00:13:00.835 --> 00:13:04.480 all part and parcel of the same thing. So 211 00:13:04.699 --> 00:13:08.240 you mentioned people that understand between menopause and perimenopause. 212 00:13:09.660 --> 00:13:13.120 I'm not sure I did. What was what's where's the difference? I mean, 213 00:13:14.045 --> 00:13:17.725 I yeah. Tell me. Sure. Of course. So it's interesting 214 00:13:17.725 --> 00:13:20.819 because quite often women will get in touch and say, oh, I'm pretty mad I'm 215 00:13:20.819 --> 00:13:24.339 premenopausal. I can't cope. I'm going to your Perimenopause. You can't cope. So not my 216 00:13:24.339 --> 00:13:28.019 bag. Premenopausal is when you become an adolescent, your monthly 217 00:13:28.019 --> 00:13:31.735 cycle starts. And, you just, you just have 218 00:13:31.735 --> 00:13:35.095 whatever is you're a normal. Whatever that is for you is when you're 219 00:13:35.010 --> 00:13:38.760 Perimenopause. When your monthly cycle starts to 220 00:13:38.760 --> 00:13:42.520 change a little bit might become heavier lighter might be longer or 221 00:13:42.520 --> 00:13:46.015 shorter in between blades And you may start experiencing symptoms 222 00:13:46.155 --> 00:13:49.995 like brain fog, anxiety, sleeplessness, achy 223 00:13:49.995 --> 00:13:53.800 joints, so on. That's when you're entering perimenopause. 224 00:13:54.180 --> 00:13:58.020 It's when your, your Eastern levels are starting to kind of fluctuate. Your 225 00:13:58.020 --> 00:14:01.815 progesterone levels are, declining. And when 226 00:14:01.815 --> 00:14:05.274 you become menopausal, you've gone 12 months without a cycle. 227 00:14:05.654 --> 00:14:09.480 And thereafter, literally menopausal is like a 12 month anniversary of your monthly 228 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:13.020 cycle and then your postmenopausal. Does that help? Okay. 229 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:16.760 Okay. So that that that that's the 12 months window, and you 230 00:14:16.920 --> 00:14:20.735 you've no idea during that 12 months if it's 231 00:14:20.735 --> 00:14:24.575 gonna reset in 2 months' time. So -- Correct. Yeah. 232 00:14:24.575 --> 00:14:27.885 So you could be exhibiting these intermittent, periods 233 00:14:28.230 --> 00:14:31.910 And that's where your Perimenopause, where you'll go into those last couple of 234 00:14:31.910 --> 00:14:35.585 years of of your periods and cycle. And then 235 00:14:35.585 --> 00:14:38.945 you say one day you wake up and go, oh, 5th 236 00:14:38.945 --> 00:14:42.305 December, that's it. We're done. We're done. We're 237 00:14:42.305 --> 00:14:45.970 done. We're now post intervals at Yay. So you have menopause day is 238 00:14:45.970 --> 00:14:49.570 really was one day in your life. That's exactly right. 239 00:14:49.570 --> 00:14:53.245 Yes. But I think because we don't want to go around going 240 00:14:53.325 --> 00:14:57.085 perry to post menopause or journey, just go menopause. And that means everything 241 00:14:57.085 --> 00:15:00.880 from parried through to post. It's it's it's it's the big big 242 00:15:00.880 --> 00:15:04.720 umbrella term that everyone kinda understands. Yep. Yeah. 243 00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:08.180 That's right. I I I seen that there are there are many 244 00:15:08.375 --> 00:15:12.055 women going through a similar pattern where you went through where you're 245 00:15:12.055 --> 00:15:15.894 using contraception, wrist masks, periods where you're taking them every 246 00:15:15.894 --> 00:15:19.180 day of the month, So there are many women out there that probably not aware. 247 00:15:19.180 --> 00:15:22.700 And also, I suppose the most contraceptive pills give you Oestrogen and 248 00:15:22.700 --> 00:15:26.464 probably progesterone progesterone at a similar level to what 249 00:15:26.464 --> 00:15:30.144 you're naturally assuming. So you probably don't notice them as turning off 250 00:15:30.144 --> 00:15:33.824 there. No. If you're if you're on, certainly, certain 251 00:15:33.824 --> 00:15:37.580 types of contraception, you you're not going to know. There's just no way to know 252 00:15:37.580 --> 00:15:41.020 unless you came off the contraception. So you really go by your 253 00:15:41.020 --> 00:15:44.615 symptoms. And, if you are in your 254 00:15:44.675 --> 00:15:48.454 early to mid forties up to your mid fifties and you're starting to experiencing, 255 00:15:49.714 --> 00:15:51.975 your anxiety, brain fog, sleeplessness, 256 00:15:53.930 --> 00:15:57.470 palpitations, itchy skin, hair loss, hair growth, 257 00:15:57.610 --> 00:16:01.290 tweezers can become a girl's best friend. And all 258 00:16:01.290 --> 00:16:05.115 these kind of other low moods, night 259 00:16:05.115 --> 00:16:08.334 sweats, if you started to spread, you know, experience 260 00:16:08.875 --> 00:16:12.460 these symptoms, then that's your guide, really, especially if you're over forty 261 00:16:12.460 --> 00:16:16.220 5, then that, that is just like going through adolescence. When you go through 262 00:16:16.220 --> 00:16:19.885 adolescence, you may experience mood 263 00:16:19.885 --> 00:16:23.485 swings, slamming doors, different 264 00:16:23.485 --> 00:16:27.325 changing sleep patterns, all sorts of different things. It's just we don't expect that in 265 00:16:27.325 --> 00:16:31.110 women of a certain stage. So -- So 266 00:16:31.110 --> 00:16:34.490 you must assume that women have kind of got their 267 00:16:35.750 --> 00:16:39.435 their life together, but they should be just flat, normal, 268 00:16:40.214 --> 00:16:43.654 whereas they're almost going back to those early hormonal years where 269 00:16:43.654 --> 00:16:47.420 they're their emotions are, yeah, going 270 00:16:47.420 --> 00:16:51.040 up and down, but considerably, I suppose. It's one of the most common 271 00:16:51.100 --> 00:16:54.875 issues that women tell me about when I'm working with them that you, they, 272 00:16:54.875 --> 00:16:58.395 they, they've had this kind of cycle of behavior at work. They know when they're 273 00:16:58.395 --> 00:17:02.095 more analytical or creative through their monthly cycle, where they're more reflective 274 00:17:02.235 --> 00:17:05.210 or determined. And then all of a sudden, 275 00:17:05.569 --> 00:17:09.270 Perimenopause comes along, and the moods can be, you 276 00:17:09.270 --> 00:17:13.045 know, they can be quite severe. And in from one moment to the next, 277 00:17:13.045 --> 00:17:16.484 you can go from being happy as Larry to being in fits of tears for 278 00:17:16.484 --> 00:17:19.845 no apparent reason, and things will trigger you in a way that you just aren't 279 00:17:19.845 --> 00:17:23.350 used to. And then all of a sudden you could be raging at 280 00:17:23.350 --> 00:17:26.650 somebody. Now this isn't for all women clearly, 281 00:17:26.950 --> 00:17:30.565 but it is not uncommon behavior for someone going through menopause. 282 00:17:31.825 --> 00:17:35.425 Since you mentioned one of your symptoms was memory loss as well, well, or just 283 00:17:35.425 --> 00:17:38.860 forgetfulness or And I I've come 284 00:17:38.860 --> 00:17:42.620 across, people in my life where that's been a factor 285 00:17:42.620 --> 00:17:46.405 and that just assumed that it was just, as you say, on the early 286 00:17:46.405 --> 00:17:49.765 onset dementia, a senior moment, people would call 287 00:17:49.765 --> 00:17:53.590 it, but maybe never associating with with the fact it could have been 288 00:17:53.590 --> 00:17:57.429 some perimenopause causing this. Mhmm. And what sort of ages with people that you've noticed 289 00:17:57.429 --> 00:18:01.095 that in the I would say late forties, fifties, yeah, kind of that 290 00:18:01.095 --> 00:18:03.975 kind of age. Yeah. But people just talk about it and say, oh, god. I 291 00:18:03.975 --> 00:18:06.455 just it was like, it's not a tip by tongue, but I just they just 292 00:18:06.455 --> 00:18:09.620 couldn't get it out, or or, or you have a conversation and they say, I 293 00:18:09.620 --> 00:18:13.400 don't understand that. And it's like, you just said that. No, I didn't. 294 00:18:13.620 --> 00:18:17.255 So maybe it isn't Maybe it is kinda like that. Yeah. Exactly. And I had 295 00:18:17.255 --> 00:18:20.695 a classic one time, to work the arrows I was working in the type of 296 00:18:20.695 --> 00:18:24.429 position I was I had to have support with my son, so I had 297 00:18:24.429 --> 00:18:28.270 an Annie. And one night I came home, I drove back 4 to 298 00:18:28.270 --> 00:18:31.855 5 minute journey from work to the house. Dropped my suit, my 299 00:18:31.855 --> 00:18:35.695 suitcase off, my briefcase off, said hi to my son, walked back my nanny, picked 300 00:18:35.695 --> 00:18:38.174 up my briefcase, and said, I'll see you later, and she goes, where are you 301 00:18:38.174 --> 00:18:42.000 going? As I'm going to work. Week, you've just been called pork. 302 00:18:43.740 --> 00:18:47.260 I mean, it's the weirdest thing. It's the weirdest 303 00:18:47.260 --> 00:18:50.825 thing. So so you could also manifest itself where someone's 304 00:18:50.825 --> 00:18:54.665 maybe, an administrator and they're doing a routine 305 00:18:54.665 --> 00:18:58.180 process. And they keep missing bits of the process, or they they just don't 306 00:18:58.180 --> 00:19:01.700 retain some of the process and go, would you mean I thought I'd done that 307 00:19:01.700 --> 00:19:05.105 that that could be part of that as Wellbeing exactly that. 308 00:19:05.565 --> 00:19:09.245 So people may experience those kind of small errors in their 309 00:19:09.245 --> 00:19:13.020 work, specifically if they're doing detailed work. And that's why it's so 310 00:19:13.020 --> 00:19:16.700 important for employers to become educated and for women to really understand what 311 00:19:16.700 --> 00:19:20.385 they're going through so that they can start to put their own processes in 312 00:19:20.385 --> 00:19:23.825 place so that they can have checklists so they can set timers so they can 313 00:19:23.825 --> 00:19:27.425 record meetings so they can take more frequent breaks so they can do the 314 00:19:27.425 --> 00:19:31.140 relaxation exercises. Because it's important as an employee 315 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:34.639 that you take responsibility for yourself and definitely you can to thrive, as well as 316 00:19:34.639 --> 00:19:35.470 the employer, obviously, making 317 00:19:38.434 --> 00:19:42.274 the cultural changes, environmental changes that are needed. So 318 00:19:42.274 --> 00:19:46.115 you weren't really self aware of what was going on, and I'm I'm guessing that 319 00:19:46.115 --> 00:19:49.909 other people maybe listen to this and experiencing this probably aren't self 320 00:19:49.909 --> 00:19:53.510 aware either. It's it's only when people maybe mention it to them that they 321 00:19:53.510 --> 00:19:57.175 go, oh, maybe you're right. I suppose if you're forgetful, you don't realize you're being 322 00:19:57.175 --> 00:20:00.935 forgetful. Not until you kind of put car keys in the fridge and the 323 00:20:00.935 --> 00:20:04.550 milk in the I don't know a washing machine or something like 324 00:20:04.550 --> 00:20:08.310 that, which as audits that might sound, is not that 325 00:20:08.310 --> 00:20:11.975 uncommon. But I think I think quite often 326 00:20:11.975 --> 00:20:15.655 people, you know, especially in the workplace, people will notice your behavior changing 327 00:20:15.655 --> 00:20:19.390 before you're conscious of it. And it's 328 00:20:19.450 --> 00:20:23.290 about learning how to identify that, how to open a sense of 329 00:20:23.290 --> 00:20:27.055 conversation with somebody, how to sign posts into the right health. Support in 330 00:20:27.055 --> 00:20:30.035 a supportive caring way without them feeling threatened. 331 00:20:30.895 --> 00:20:34.595 And I often find when I'm speaking to women, 332 00:20:34.730 --> 00:20:38.510 like, oh, I didn't know that was part of menopause because there's over 30 symptoms, 333 00:20:38.970 --> 00:20:42.565 and no two woman experiences it in the same way. So 334 00:20:43.265 --> 00:20:47.025 it's it it fascinates me and I shouldn't because I 335 00:20:47.025 --> 00:20:50.720 was there only 6 years ago, but it fascinates me that women 336 00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:54.480 don't know what menopause is. They don't know how many symptoms there are. They're 337 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:57.380 not prepared for it, and they don't know where to get help and support. 338 00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:01.685 So yeah, I'm really grateful to you for helping me 339 00:21:02.145 --> 00:21:05.925 open up the conversation that little bit further. Yeah. 340 00:21:06.465 --> 00:21:10.090 Is it My understanding is there's still a lot of 341 00:21:10.310 --> 00:21:13.760 kind of shame and stigma around losing one's fertility 342 00:21:13.760 --> 00:21:17.595 and did at this point in life, maybe the feeling of loss, 343 00:21:18.455 --> 00:21:21.495 whilst someone may not ever want to have another child, but the fact they now 344 00:21:21.495 --> 00:21:24.970 can't -- Mhmm. -- is quite a big loss, isn't it? I've had a few 345 00:21:24.970 --> 00:21:27.230 clients mention that to me, and 346 00:21:29.210 --> 00:21:32.295 we do I do a lot of work and mindset with my clients, so it's 347 00:21:32.295 --> 00:21:36.135 very much looking deeper inside to them and what that fertility means to them, 348 00:21:36.135 --> 00:21:39.820 looking at the ages and stages of life. And actually, women of 349 00:21:39.820 --> 00:21:43.420 this generation experiencing menopause are going to live as long, if not 350 00:21:43.420 --> 00:21:46.560 longer, post menopause leave than they were in their fertile years. 351 00:21:47.174 --> 00:21:50.615 And we are the 1st generation to do that. And that in 352 00:21:50.615 --> 00:21:54.375 itself, when people get their their heads around that, and they recognize that they've got 353 00:21:54.375 --> 00:21:57.960 this incredible life ahead of them. So It's like the second 354 00:21:58.340 --> 00:22:02.180 opportunity to, to create whatever you want to be and 355 00:22:02.180 --> 00:22:05.895 do and have And it's, it's very much about, you know, that 356 00:22:05.895 --> 00:22:09.515 mindset shift in recognizing your role in life also 357 00:22:09.895 --> 00:22:13.649 and, and how much you've got to give back So, yeah, there, 358 00:22:13.649 --> 00:22:17.169 there can be that sense of loss, but, it affects 359 00:22:17.169 --> 00:22:20.470 everybody differently. But there's still a lot of, 360 00:22:21.555 --> 00:22:25.335 Social etiquette where periods, 361 00:22:25.715 --> 00:22:29.325 cycles, sanitary products, etcetera, etcetera, 362 00:22:29.325 --> 00:22:33.039 aren't topics for the dinner table that they're they're they're whisper 363 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:36.880 conversations, and it's not talked about. So is there any wonder that that 364 00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:40.545 many women don't share their stories with West 365 00:22:40.545 --> 00:22:43.905 Coast is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is that part of 366 00:22:43.905 --> 00:22:47.745 the trouble that people aren't talking about it enough? I'm delighted to say that things 367 00:22:47.745 --> 00:22:51.190 are changing. Did you see the article about Scotland? And sanitary 368 00:22:51.250 --> 00:22:54.850 products? Yes. I did. I did. I thought it was fantastic. Yeah. I just hope 369 00:22:54.850 --> 00:22:58.210 that is the beginning of something that more and more countries will will do. 370 00:22:58.210 --> 00:23:01.215 So free sanitary products is is one 371 00:23:01.755 --> 00:23:05.595 amazingly positive straightforward. And more, the more clients I 372 00:23:05.595 --> 00:23:09.430 work with now, the more corporate clients that I engage with, Instead of just 373 00:23:09.430 --> 00:23:13.130 focusing on menopause, what we do is we look at the entire female life cycle. 374 00:23:13.590 --> 00:23:16.970 So everything, all the changes, fertility 375 00:23:17.110 --> 00:23:20.955 issues, miscarriage pregnancy, you 376 00:23:20.955 --> 00:23:24.655 know, we're with looking at anybody who bleeds and 377 00:23:25.510 --> 00:23:28.150 what that's going to mean for them, the impacts are going to have for them 378 00:23:28.150 --> 00:23:31.830 throughout their entire employee journey rather 379 00:23:31.830 --> 00:23:35.304 than just focusing on one specific stage because I believe that the more we can 380 00:23:35.304 --> 00:23:38.985 open the conversation at work about what's going on that you 381 00:23:38.985 --> 00:23:42.820 can't see necessarily, the more we can create 382 00:23:42.820 --> 00:23:46.120 an environment that people are, more engaged 383 00:23:46.260 --> 00:23:49.860 with, more, tolerant of and more understanding of as 384 00:23:49.860 --> 00:23:53.485 well. So it, it's, I do think it's a big 385 00:23:53.485 --> 00:23:57.245 journey, but I am seeing people being much more open now 6 386 00:23:57.245 --> 00:24:00.890 years ago. People organizations were kind of like kicking 9 to 387 00:24:00.890 --> 00:24:04.010 12 months before they were to engage me to come in and deliver something on 388 00:24:04.010 --> 00:24:07.795 menopause awareness, whereas now I'll be It's inbound inquiries asking me to 389 00:24:07.795 --> 00:24:11.635 go and help them create their strategy around women at work. So there is a 390 00:24:11.635 --> 00:24:15.310 shift, but there's always going to businesses, and you must find this with your work 391 00:24:15.310 --> 00:24:18.830 as well. There's always companies that are, you know, the early 392 00:24:18.830 --> 00:24:21.710 adopters and those ones that will kind of lag behind a little bit more. Do 393 00:24:21.710 --> 00:24:23.615 you find that? Oh, for sure. It's 394 00:24:25.615 --> 00:24:28.274 it turns on the size of the business, the sector, the 395 00:24:29.215 --> 00:24:33.010 culture. Some are front runners 396 00:24:33.010 --> 00:24:36.130 out there trying to try to their best. And there were many organizations that are 397 00:24:36.130 --> 00:24:39.170 just playing catch up, or or it's not even on the radar. So, yeah, you're 398 00:24:39.170 --> 00:24:42.905 right. It's, I think in a way that's It's 399 00:24:42.905 --> 00:24:45.885 just the way the way the world. I think it was gonna have 400 00:24:46.345 --> 00:24:49.405 outliers forward people. And 401 00:24:50.330 --> 00:24:53.290