WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.439 --> 00:00:05.200 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the Inclusion 2 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:08.800 Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number of amazing 3 00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:11.845 people. And simply having a conversation about the subject of inclusion, 4 00:00:12.225 --> 00:00:16.005 belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. 5 00:00:16.590 --> 00:00:18.990 If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a 6 00:00:18.990 --> 00:00:19.970 line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 7 00:00:22.750 --> 00:00:26.179 That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co 8 00:00:26.180 --> 00:00:29.154 dot uk. You'll be able to catch up with all of the previous shows on 9 00:00:29.154 --> 00:00:32.950 Itunes, Spotify and the usual places. So plug 10 00:00:32.950 --> 00:00:36.730 in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. 11 00:00:37.670 --> 00:00:40.985 Today is episode 28 with the title 12 00:00:41.285 --> 00:00:44.885 Finding the Magic and I have the absolute honor and 13 00:00:44.885 --> 00:00:48.660 privilege to be joined by Mark Lee. Mark described himself 14 00:00:48.660 --> 00:00:52.340 as a reformed accountant and magician. When I asked 15 00:00:52.340 --> 00:00:55.940 Mark to describe his superpower, he said that it is 16 00:00:55.940 --> 00:00:59.785 his ability to create acronyms on the fly. 17 00:01:00.325 --> 00:01:02.985 Or is that TCAOTF, I wonder? 18 00:01:03.845 --> 00:01:07.270 Hello, Mark. Hi. Jo. Hi, Jo, thanks for having 19 00:01:07.270 --> 00:01:11.050 me. Absolute pleasure. Jo, Mark, tell me, 20 00:01:11.270 --> 00:01:14.664 finding the magic, what does that mean to you? It 21 00:01:16.325 --> 00:01:20.024 it probably relates back to, as a teenager, 22 00:01:20.780 --> 00:01:24.159 my first foray into business was as a children's party entertainer. 23 00:01:24.939 --> 00:01:28.539 And I then continued as a as a magician at parties and 24 00:01:28.539 --> 00:01:32.255 functions, And it's always been my hobby, if you like. 25 00:01:32.255 --> 00:01:35.935 Other other teenagers, 20 somethings were going to football or rugby 26 00:01:35.935 --> 00:01:39.400 or sports events, and I was going to kids' parties and 27 00:01:39.400 --> 00:01:43.240 entertaining them using magic. And, it's always been a part 28 00:01:43.240 --> 00:01:46.060 of my life. I've been a member of the Magic Circle for 29 00:01:46.935 --> 00:01:50.535 over 20 years, and I'm now treasurer of the Magic 30 00:01:50.535 --> 00:01:54.155 Circle. So I get to combine my my professional 31 00:01:54.695 --> 00:01:58.509 experience as a chartered accountant with being 32 00:01:59.210 --> 00:02:01.950 a passionate magician as well. And 33 00:02:03.130 --> 00:02:06.905 I I look back and I realized that I hid my 34 00:02:06.905 --> 00:02:10.584 passion in magic from my clients over the years, although my 35 00:02:10.584 --> 00:02:13.829 colleagues knew about it. And I was always doing tricks in the pub or in 36 00:02:13.829 --> 00:02:16.930 the office, in between client work, obviously. 37 00:02:17.550 --> 00:02:21.330 But I kept it secret from clients because I was always concerned it might adversely 38 00:02:21.390 --> 00:02:24.844 impact my professional credibility. And since I 39 00:02:24.844 --> 00:02:28.685 left practice, after I qualified as chartered accountant, I was a tax adviser 40 00:02:28.685 --> 00:02:32.110 for many years. And then about 15 years 41 00:02:32.110 --> 00:02:35.550 ago, I decided, having been made redundant for the second 42 00:02:35.550 --> 00:02:39.390 time, I'd focused instead the rest of my career on doing those 43 00:02:39.390 --> 00:02:42.675 things. I really enjoyed speaking, writing, and mentoring. 44 00:02:43.375 --> 00:02:47.135 And I learned that one of the key 45 00:02:47.135 --> 00:02:50.959 things you need to do as an independent person, and indeed it's probably 46 00:02:50.959 --> 00:02:54.720 true for all of us, is to share a bit about yourself. People 47 00:02:54.720 --> 00:02:58.260 don't just buy you because of your technical experience. And 48 00:02:59.235 --> 00:03:02.935 I'm much less shy about revealing my interest in magic 49 00:03:03.075 --> 00:03:06.915 now. Indeed, there's invariably a trick or 2 in in my talks while I'm on 50 00:03:06.915 --> 00:03:10.430 stage even though my audiences are accountants. And I 51 00:03:10.430 --> 00:03:14.050 frequently point out that if they want to be better remembered, referred, and recommended, 52 00:03:14.485 --> 00:03:18.245 they need to reveal something of themselves. That doesn't mean they have to 53 00:03:18.245 --> 00:03:21.625 become magicians, though, but everybody should find the magic, 54 00:03:22.340 --> 00:03:25.959 in their own career, background, experience, passions, 55 00:03:26.100 --> 00:03:28.280 life, loves, family, or whatever. 56 00:03:30.395 --> 00:03:34.155 Yep. Brilliant. I mean, we talk, you know, in D&I circles 57 00:03:34.155 --> 00:03:37.855 about bringing your whole self to work. So you you are actively hiding 58 00:03:38.230 --> 00:03:41.989 an element of who you are or were, for 59 00:03:41.989 --> 00:03:45.750 fear of embarrassment, shame or stigma or something that you felt it would damage 60 00:03:45.750 --> 00:03:49.415 your professional credibility. That's really kind of interesting, and 61 00:03:49.415 --> 00:03:50.555 it's magic. Yeah. 62 00:03:54.534 --> 00:03:58.350 I think I had it's also a function of a couple of bad experiences 63 00:03:58.490 --> 00:04:02.170 that I had. One was I turned up at an turned up at an 64 00:04:02.170 --> 00:04:05.985 interview in the days before the Internet. So there was no profile of me 65 00:04:05.985 --> 00:04:09.825 online. There was no photo of me on the CV, and I sat 66 00:04:09.825 --> 00:04:13.629 down, in front of the senior partner of a large firm of accountants, and 67 00:04:13.629 --> 00:04:17.070 he did that thing he'd been trained to do to try and put the 68 00:04:17.070 --> 00:04:20.755 candidate there is. So he scanned down the CV, and he 69 00:04:20.755 --> 00:04:24.595 looked at the interests bit. And now under interests, I put 70 00:04:24.595 --> 00:04:28.050 magic, member of the magic circle. And I to this 71 00:04:28.050 --> 00:04:31.410 day, I remember him looking up and looking at me 72 00:04:31.410 --> 00:04:35.090 going, I see you're a magician. I think that says a lot 73 00:04:35.090 --> 00:04:38.755 about you. I don't recall where the 74 00:04:38.755 --> 00:04:42.115 conversation went from that, but I do know I didn't get the job. And I 75 00:04:42.115 --> 00:04:45.820 always wondered if that was because he perceived that maybe I was good at deceiving 76 00:04:45.820 --> 00:04:49.280 people and that maybe that was why he shouldn't recruit me. 77 00:04:49.660 --> 00:04:53.315 And I think that may have had an impact as to 78 00:04:53.315 --> 00:04:57.075 me, keeping it, hidden for a 79 00:04:57.075 --> 00:05:00.900 while. And then the other experience that many, many 80 00:05:00.900 --> 00:05:04.340 years later, I've been headhunted, it was before I was 81 00:05:04.340 --> 00:05:07.480 headhunted, by BDO, Large for accountants. 82 00:05:09.395 --> 00:05:12.695 I worked at another sizable firm. And 83 00:05:13.395 --> 00:05:17.030 because I shared the magic with colleagues and friends and with journalists and I was 84 00:05:17.030 --> 00:05:20.470 making a bit of a name for myself in in the accounting world as a 85 00:05:20.470 --> 00:05:24.229 commentator. And in those days, there was a a publication, 86 00:05:24.229 --> 00:05:28.005 which is now only available online, accountancy age, which we used 87 00:05:28.005 --> 00:05:31.525 to joke was a bit like the sum of the accountancy world. No 88 00:05:31.525 --> 00:05:34.965 offense to the serious publication that it is these 89 00:05:34.965 --> 00:05:38.620 days. But the back cover always had a a 90 00:05:38.620 --> 00:05:42.240 taking stock page, which is a bit like sort of accountancy 91 00:05:42.380 --> 00:05:46.115 rate version of private eye, poking fun at, 92 00:05:46.295 --> 00:05:49.655 you know, stuffy old accountants. But they always had a feature on 93 00:05:49.655 --> 00:05:53.355 accountants who were a little bit unusual, who had an interesting 94 00:05:53.415 --> 00:05:57.160 hobbies. And I had featured on the back cover 2 or 95 00:05:57.160 --> 00:06:00.540 3 times. And I remember one occasion, 96 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:04.835 I walked into my largest client's office, the finance 97 00:06:04.835 --> 00:06:08.595 director, with a couple of, colleagues. And as I walked 98 00:06:08.595 --> 00:06:11.495 in, I could see that on the notice board behind him 99 00:06:12.180 --> 00:06:15.800 was pinned the latest back cover from accountancy 100 00:06:15.940 --> 00:06:19.460 age with a picture of me doing a magic trick circled 101 00:06:19.460 --> 00:06:23.094 in big red ink and an arrow pointing at 102 00:06:23.094 --> 00:06:26.794 it going, should we take tax advice from this guy? 103 00:06:27.895 --> 00:06:31.639 I went, oh my god. And I they they 104 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:34.620 knew me well enough. It was a wind up. But 105 00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:38.375 for that split second, I had thought that I 106 00:06:38.935 --> 00:06:42.315 damaged not only my credibility, but risked the client, 107 00:06:43.255 --> 00:06:47.070 to the firm. And I think that also made 108 00:06:47.070 --> 00:06:50.750 me a little reluctant to share the magic too 109 00:06:50.750 --> 00:06:54.510 much with, with clients for for far too long 110 00:06:54.510 --> 00:06:57.935 looking back. Because the other thing I've learned as I've got older and 111 00:06:57.935 --> 00:07:01.715 wiser is most people love magic. Most people 112 00:07:01.855 --> 00:07:05.530 like the entertainment side of it. It's always about being entertaining. It's never about 113 00:07:05.530 --> 00:07:09.050 being clever or I can do stuff you can't do. It's about entertaining with 114 00:07:09.050 --> 00:07:12.435 magic. And most people like it, love it, and it might well have helped 115 00:07:12.435 --> 00:07:16.275 cement more client relationships than I would have lost. So I I think it's 116 00:07:16.275 --> 00:07:19.880 a huge mistake when I look back. Yeah. 117 00:07:19.880 --> 00:07:23.660 I'm I'm almost sat here speechless listening to that story because 118 00:07:25.080 --> 00:07:28.665 for it to carry that kind of stigma, but then I think the word the 119 00:07:28.665 --> 00:07:32.045 way you described it was magic could be 120 00:07:32.425 --> 00:07:36.180 your practice of being deceitful, misleading people. So 121 00:07:36.419 --> 00:07:39.860 I suppose it is a bit of this paradox between a trusted 122 00:07:39.860 --> 00:07:43.300 accountant and a magician. I mean obviously we often want our tax 123 00:07:43.300 --> 00:07:46.845 advisers to magic our tax away, but we want to do it 124 00:07:47.625 --> 00:07:51.005 in plain view. So had this one before today. 125 00:07:52.580 --> 00:07:56.260 No? No. No. No. Sorry. Tongue very firmly in cheek. Ah, 126 00:07:56.260 --> 00:07:58.520 okay. Let's magic away my tags. 127 00:08:00.885 --> 00:08:04.245 I see you have your wand. I mean for those this is a podcast but 128 00:08:04.245 --> 00:08:07.605 Mark has actually sat there with a bookshelf behind him and on the bookshelf is 129 00:08:07.605 --> 00:08:11.419 a magic wand sort of strategic who plays just ready to 130 00:08:11.419 --> 00:08:15.020 magic people's accounts. Well well, I I I haven't been in practice for many, 131 00:08:15.020 --> 00:08:18.544 many years, but there is 132 00:08:18.544 --> 00:08:22.005 often a a magic wand behind me just because it it prompts conversation. 133 00:08:22.465 --> 00:08:26.130 And, also, for those people who like to study bookshelves, almost 134 00:08:26.130 --> 00:08:29.910 all of the books on on the shelf are business related, 135 00:08:31.009 --> 00:08:34.309 lead generation, marketing, the sort of things that I talk to 136 00:08:35.005 --> 00:08:38.845 firms of accountants about from a strategic perspective or coaching and 137 00:08:38.845 --> 00:08:42.065 mentoring, which I do with individual accountants, 138 00:08:42.445 --> 00:08:46.070 particularly those running around practices. But if you look carefully, you will 139 00:08:46.070 --> 00:08:49.850 also see the Paul Daniels adult magic book. And, 140 00:08:49.990 --> 00:08:53.510 also, I've I can't remember why I put it there, but I've got the, I'm 141 00:08:53.510 --> 00:08:56.955 sorry I haven't a clue, anthology there as well, 142 00:08:57.415 --> 00:09:00.875 just to show that I'm not all about the serious and the heavyweight. 143 00:09:02.410 --> 00:09:05.870 It's it's really interesting. This has sparked a memory that I've forgotten all about. 144 00:09:06.250 --> 00:09:09.390 I did my first magic 145 00:09:09.690 --> 00:09:12.315 gig when I was about 8 or 9 years old. 146 00:09:14.055 --> 00:09:17.435 And my parents were very keen at the time for me not to be paid 147 00:09:17.680 --> 00:09:21.520 because they didn't want to make me a professional magician at ages of 8 148 00:09:21.520 --> 00:09:24.640 or 9. Oh my goodness. It was my it was my I think it was 149 00:09:24.640 --> 00:09:28.435 8 or 9, maybe 10. I was very young. I remember it was our 150 00:09:28.435 --> 00:09:32.035 next door neighbor. They had younger children and 151 00:09:32.035 --> 00:09:34.755 they they knew that I was I did some magic tricks. Jo I had my, 152 00:09:34.755 --> 00:09:37.060 was it hanky panky magic? Box? 153 00:09:38.480 --> 00:09:41.520 I forgot all about it until he mentioned I forgot all about it Jo that 154 00:09:41.520 --> 00:09:45.115 they knew I did sort of this magic, I used to get magic, these magic 155 00:09:45.115 --> 00:09:47.954 boxes, it was a hanky panky magic accessory, I used to have a blue one 156 00:09:47.954 --> 00:09:50.634 and a green one, there's a like a bigger one you Joanne get, all the 157 00:09:50.634 --> 00:09:54.290 little things, Jo I was quite into at the time. And they asked me 158 00:09:54.290 --> 00:09:58.130 if I'd be a magician at their their children's party next door, there's 159 00:09:58.130 --> 00:10:01.815 about 8 or 10 kids, I remember doing it practicing all these little tricks and 160 00:10:01.815 --> 00:10:05.495 yeah obviously fluff them up a little bit but yeah I my audience were 161 00:10:05.495 --> 00:10:09.230 probably 5 or 6 so it was probably easy audience. And, 162 00:10:09.390 --> 00:10:12.510 yeah Jo I did my my first magic gig probably the age of 8 or 163 00:10:12.510 --> 00:10:16.350 9. Well, Jo idea why I didn't pursue it it just it 164 00:10:16.350 --> 00:10:20.125 was one of those things I did and it dropped away, went up maybe in 165 00:10:20.125 --> 00:10:23.885 my teenage years. Well, I I did my first gig for my 166 00:10:23.885 --> 00:10:27.650 sister when I was about 13, and then 167 00:10:27.650 --> 00:10:31.490 I got a booking for a cousin's daughter, when she was gonna 168 00:10:31.490 --> 00:10:35.190 be 6. And the cousin asked how much I wanted to charge, 169 00:10:35.915 --> 00:10:39.514 and I I absolutely no idea. And so I 170 00:10:39.514 --> 00:10:43.250 said, remember, this was a long time ago. I 171 00:10:43.250 --> 00:10:46.390 said, how does 25 p an hour 172 00:10:46.850 --> 00:10:50.529 sound? Which I can see the smile on your 173 00:10:50.529 --> 00:10:54.085 face. It might not sound like much, but it's 25 p more than I'm being 174 00:10:54.085 --> 00:10:54.825 paid today. 175 00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:01.500 And then I realized, hang on. The children's party is only 2 or 3 hours. 176 00:11:02.120 --> 00:11:05.785 And we we agreed to round it up to a pound. So my 177 00:11:05.785 --> 00:11:09.545 my first professional fee was 1 pound. Still remember 178 00:11:09.545 --> 00:11:13.005 it. And I still have that pound here to do no. I don't. 179 00:11:14.410 --> 00:11:18.250 But I but, well, not to show your age. Back in those days, it was 180 00:11:18.250 --> 00:11:21.210 a paper pound, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It probably was. It was one of these 181 00:11:21.210 --> 00:11:24.774 big, big paper pounds. Yeah. Yeah. No. It was the 5 it was 5 or 182 00:11:24.774 --> 00:11:28.375 something that big, and I don't remember those. Yeah. I'm only a few years old, 183 00:11:28.375 --> 00:11:32.100 aren't you? But you know, 184 00:11:32.560 --> 00:11:36.240 I used to work with somebody well, I worked for Coots Bank 185 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:39.779 back in the mid to late 90s and I used to work with 186 00:11:40.415 --> 00:11:44.115 a fellow there who was, he was in a magic circle, a magician, 187 00:11:44.975 --> 00:11:48.195 and he would always do magic 188 00:11:48.980 --> 00:11:52.660 randomly as during the day. I was in IT 189 00:11:52.660 --> 00:11:56.185 or in computing so there's a lot of time sitting around watching stuff load or 190 00:11:56.345 --> 00:11:59.705 or maybe installing things Jo there's always a lot of time to kill. And I 191 00:11:59.705 --> 00:12:03.225 met one weekend we're doing this major upgrade and he taught me how to 192 00:12:03.225 --> 00:12:06.310 juggle 3, 3 balls. 193 00:12:08.290 --> 00:12:12.050 I I can't do probably more than 6 or 7 cycles of 3 194 00:12:12.050 --> 00:12:15.585 balls, but he taught me to juggle in the in the luncheon so I know 195 00:12:15.585 --> 00:12:18.885 I know the theory now I've just got to practice it to make it work. 196 00:12:19.025 --> 00:12:22.579 But yeah. It's like all these things isn't it? Practice practice makes 197 00:12:22.820 --> 00:12:26.660 I was gonna say practice makes perfect. Practice makes permanent. If you don't 198 00:12:26.660 --> 00:12:29.995 get good training or good teaching, good encouragement, 199 00:12:30.135 --> 00:12:33.895 then you practicing stuff just makes your 200 00:12:33.895 --> 00:12:37.035 habits permanent. Doesn't necessarily make make you a good 201 00:12:37.255 --> 00:12:40.920 performer of any kind. Yeah. I've 202 00:12:40.920 --> 00:12:44.760 always been a little bit envious of people who who can juggle because it's such 203 00:12:44.760 --> 00:12:48.335 a great little party trick. You can just sort of go oh, there's a fruit 204 00:12:48.335 --> 00:12:51.375 bowl there they're just a couple of apples, couple of oranges and before you know 205 00:12:51.375 --> 00:12:55.215 they've got 5 or 6 things going or anything. That's quite good. I mean that 206 00:12:55.215 --> 00:12:58.709 and playing the saxophone Joanne my 2 want to be able to do skills. I 207 00:12:58.806 --> 00:13:02.230 Joanne can understand that? I I always feel a little bit alienated when people start 208 00:13:02.230 --> 00:13:06.070 talking about juggling as a link directly from magic because they're 2 very 209 00:13:06.070 --> 00:13:09.005 different skills, and I can't I can't juggle. 210 00:13:09.625 --> 00:13:13.405 Can't juggle. I mean play the saxophone. I mean, yeah. I mean, 211 00:13:13.545 --> 00:13:17.199 this this person was a magician, a member of magic circle, and he taught me 212 00:13:17.199 --> 00:13:20.560 to juggle Jo there are different things, you're right. I think it should be some 213 00:13:20.560 --> 00:13:22.959 coin tricks and sort of how to roll the coin on the back of your 214 00:13:22.959 --> 00:13:26.685 knuckles and stuff, which isn't really magic. It's just Good manipulation. Joanne 215 00:13:26.995 --> 00:13:30.595 practice. And dexterity. Manipulation. I I I look back and realize 216 00:13:30.595 --> 00:13:34.060 that I pretty much stopped 217 00:13:34.060 --> 00:13:37.660 doing as much magic when I 218 00:13:37.660 --> 00:13:40.640 left practice and went out by myself. 219 00:13:43.115 --> 00:13:46.555 Again, yeah, when I initially started going to business 220 00:13:46.555 --> 00:13:50.370 networking events, again, I was cons I didn't wanna distract 221 00:13:50.370 --> 00:13:53.750 people talking about the magic side of my activities 222 00:13:54.209 --> 00:13:57.515 as distinct from my business activities. And, 223 00:13:59.975 --> 00:14:03.415 and as the years passed and I stopped going to generic business 224 00:14:03.415 --> 00:14:06.555 networking events and focused only on events with accountants, 225 00:14:08.040 --> 00:14:11.560 it was prop it became less important to to be doing 226 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:15.260 less important to me to be doing magic, to be remembered. 227 00:14:16.445 --> 00:14:19.185 So the these days, it figures in my talks, 228 00:14:20.365 --> 00:14:24.129 often as examples of how to be better remembered, referred, and recommended, how 229 00:14:24.129 --> 00:14:27.649 to stand out from the crowd, from your competitors, and from the 230 00:14:27.649 --> 00:14:31.329 pack. And I will then often, produce a pack of 231 00:14:31.329 --> 00:14:35.005 cards and use use that as an analogy, 232 00:14:35.825 --> 00:14:39.505 for how we remember what stands out. 233 00:14:39.505 --> 00:14:43.000 So a different colored back card to all the others, for example. 234 00:14:43.540 --> 00:14:47.240 And then I will always it's a bit of a cheat. 235 00:14:47.940 --> 00:14:51.435 This was in the days when we could do live events. I just 236 00:14:51.435 --> 00:14:54.894 wouldn't I remember those days. It would it wouldn't work on, 237 00:14:55.355 --> 00:14:59.100 on a Zoom or online, I I don't think. I I would 238 00:14:59.100 --> 00:15:01.740 always say, look. It's a rule of the magics. You've heard as part of the 239 00:15:01.740 --> 00:15:05.345 introduction, I'm treasurer of the magic circle. And it's a rule of the magic 240 00:15:05.665 --> 00:15:09.185 circle, that if you're on stage, you have to perform a magic trick. Would it 241 00:15:09.185 --> 00:15:12.545 be okay for me to perform a trick for you? I always ask the 242 00:15:12.545 --> 00:15:15.440 audience's permission, and they will say yes. 243 00:15:15.980 --> 00:15:19.660 And that's why there will always be, you know, 1 or 244 00:15:19.660 --> 00:15:23.445 2 tricks during the during the talk, not so that they will remember 245 00:15:23.445 --> 00:15:27.285 me as a magician, but hopefully, they remember well, 246 00:15:27.285 --> 00:15:30.985 they do remember it was entertaining and the the magic, they enjoyed. 247 00:15:32.180 --> 00:15:35.959 It it often includes a 248 00:15:36.339 --> 00:15:40.005 a trick at the end where I use a deck of cards 249 00:15:40.165 --> 00:15:42.745 to summarize many of the key points I've made. 250 00:15:43.845 --> 00:15:47.605 And that's also makes it a useful reminder at the 251 00:15:47.605 --> 00:15:48.505 end of a talk. 252 00:15:51.850 --> 00:15:55.530 Because, Matthew, it's all about the setup, isn't it? You you do 253 00:15:55.530 --> 00:15:58.305 something very early on. Well, I would say it's all about I would say it's 254 00:15:58.305 --> 00:16:01.665 all about. But no. And then and then but I know. Right. But at the 255 00:16:01.665 --> 00:16:04.865 end, you then bring this thing that you've already introduced right at the beginning. So 256 00:16:04.865 --> 00:16:08.310 you misdirect people by the beginning and then and then produce it the end. Oh, 257 00:16:08.310 --> 00:16:11.910 that's that's how I Yeah. It's it's like a good good a well structured 258 00:16:11.910 --> 00:16:15.654 talk, a well structured routine, well structured talk with a lot of 259 00:16:15.654 --> 00:16:19.334 similarities. And a lot of the skills I bring 260 00:16:19.334 --> 00:16:22.795 to speaking on stage, or even on camera 261 00:16:24.570 --> 00:16:28.250 have evolved from the fact that I was speaking that most difficult of 262 00:16:28.250 --> 00:16:31.850 audiences, from a very early relatively early age as a 263 00:16:31.850 --> 00:16:35.535 teenager. And, you know, if you can stand up and entertain and 264 00:16:35.535 --> 00:16:39.375 talk to 20, 30, 40, 50 kids or 100 on couple of 265 00:16:39.375 --> 00:16:42.720 occasions, then standing in front of a group of accountants 266 00:16:42.940 --> 00:16:46.540 is really not a challenge. Particularly, I found as, like, a 267 00:16:46.540 --> 00:16:50.065 older and more confident in 268 00:16:50.065 --> 00:16:51.365 myself as a person. 269 00:16:54.145 --> 00:16:57.750 In my in my in my naivety, I I would say the 270 00:16:57.750 --> 00:17:01.510 stereotype magician tends to be a white 271 00:17:01.510 --> 00:17:05.244 man. You know, we look at Daniels, we look 272 00:17:05.244 --> 00:17:08.545 at some of the big superstars, they tend to be men, and 273 00:17:08.925 --> 00:17:12.705 the women, dare I say, wear accessories. Oh, history. 274 00:17:13.005 --> 00:17:16.670 Historically. They were looking good, yeah, catching a bullet in their mouth, having the knife 275 00:17:16.670 --> 00:17:19.630 thrown at their head. I mean, that's that's beyond magicians, but it's all kind of 276 00:17:19.630 --> 00:17:23.414 that entertainment thing. Thank thank goodness chain things 277 00:17:23.414 --> 00:17:27.194 changed enormously. I think it's 2020, 25 years ago, 278 00:17:27.335 --> 00:17:30.794 the Magic Circle allowed women to join in their own right. 279 00:17:31.520 --> 00:17:34.900 And we have the Young Magicians Club as well. 280 00:17:35.520 --> 00:17:39.140 And, some wonderful female 281 00:17:39.840 --> 00:17:43.684 members of both the Young Magicians Club and the Magic Circle. Indeed, 282 00:17:44.705 --> 00:17:48.325 one of the graduates from the Young Magicians Club into the Magic Circle 283 00:17:48.580 --> 00:17:52.100 became our 1st female secretary of Magic Circle in her mid 284 00:17:52.100 --> 00:17:55.915 twenties, and she's now the first female vice president of the 285 00:17:55.915 --> 00:17:59.515 Magic Circle. And she's a wonderful I'm gonna say young 286 00:17:59.515 --> 00:18:02.815 lady. She's a, you know, a wonderful lady, wonderful performer, 287 00:18:04.130 --> 00:18:07.830 great person, and a great role model 288 00:18:08.050 --> 00:18:11.505 for other women who aspire to be in 289 00:18:11.505 --> 00:18:15.265 magic. And Britain's Got Talent's also been very good at it. We've had a huge 290 00:18:15.265 --> 00:18:18.965 number of women take part, on Britain's Got Talent. 291 00:18:19.400 --> 00:18:23.080 And also just in terms of diversity, just this 292 00:18:23.080 --> 00:18:26.840 year, one of the finalists, was a guy called Richard Essien. He's 293 00:18:26.840 --> 00:18:30.685 a member of the Magic Circle, also known 294 00:18:30.685 --> 00:18:33.905 as Magical Bones. And he told a fabulous 295 00:18:34.445 --> 00:18:37.585 story about how he'd been inspired by the first black magician, 296 00:18:39.170 --> 00:18:42.530 to, to to come across, I think, from America to the 297 00:18:42.530 --> 00:18:46.070 UK. And seeing 298 00:18:46.450 --> 00:18:50.275 seeing a great magician who also happens to be a 299 00:18:50.275 --> 00:18:53.015 person of color was a is a great thrill. 300 00:18:54.195 --> 00:18:58.010 Yeah. I'm I as you said before, I recognize that I 301 00:18:58.010 --> 00:19:01.610 could be seen as just another old white bloke. For for 302 00:19:01.610 --> 00:19:05.130 some years, not just in the the magic 303 00:19:05.130 --> 00:19:08.815 circle, but I'm I'm on the members of commercial board of the Institute 304 00:19:08.815 --> 00:19:12.495 Chartered Accountants, England and Wales, you know, me through 305 00:19:12.495 --> 00:19:14.835 my involvement at the Professional Speaking Association. 306 00:19:16.330 --> 00:19:20.030 For some years, I've recognized the importance of 307 00:19:20.250 --> 00:19:23.790 diversity and inclusion and have helped 308 00:19:23.850 --> 00:19:26.745 organizers, of events 309 00:19:27.445 --> 00:19:30.825 recognize that the default choice of an old white bloke is not 310 00:19:32.085 --> 00:19:35.909 is not is not necessarily the right route to go. And 311 00:19:35.909 --> 00:19:39.690 we before we started recording, we were talking about unconscious bias. 312 00:19:40.070 --> 00:19:43.909 And one of the reasons why that happens in my experience 313 00:19:43.909 --> 00:19:47.745 is because most old white blokes who are organizing things only 314 00:19:47.745 --> 00:19:51.525 know old white blokes and spreading their 315 00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:55.320 spreading their wings. So I'm delighted to have introduced women, people of 316 00:19:55.320 --> 00:19:59.000 color to be speakers. It means I don't get as many gigs as I might 317 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:02.495 have done. But, frankly, I might just as well be losing 318 00:20:02.495 --> 00:20:05.795 them to a more diverse range of 319 00:20:06.335 --> 00:20:09.155 speakers or presenters as to younger 320 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:14.080 white people. Yeah. Yeah. The thing is to 321 00:20:14.080 --> 00:20:17.760 make everybody more aware of the breadth of experience and 322 00:20:17.760 --> 00:20:21.215 ability out there, and that doesn't mean limiting 323 00:20:21.595 --> 00:20:24.955 ourselves to the historic approach that has always been adopted in the 324 00:20:24.955 --> 00:20:28.710 past. And, also, sometimes it's nice to 325 00:20:28.710 --> 00:20:32.390 have someone else entertain you and enlighten you for a change and not always be 326 00:20:32.390 --> 00:20:36.235 the one that's doing the performing. It's nice sometimes take a backseat and, 327 00:20:36.695 --> 00:20:40.375 see younger people come through. Absolutely. I, I, I can't 328 00:20:40.375 --> 00:20:43.195 abide any unfairness or abuse of power. 329 00:20:43.735 --> 00:20:47.370 And I I know that I 330 00:20:49.130 --> 00:20:52.570 so I sense that I feel more strongly about that 331 00:20:52.570 --> 00:20:56.395 than many other people of my generation, in terms 332 00:20:56.395 --> 00:21:00.175 of rec racisms, sexism, diversity generally. 333 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:04.520 And I think that is a function of something that I very rarely talk 334 00:21:04.520 --> 00:21:07.980 about, which is the fact that I'm white on the outside, 335 00:21:08.795 --> 00:21:11.935 but I'm still potentially subject to racism because I'm Jewish. 336 00:21:13.035 --> 00:21:16.175 And it I don't wear it on my sleeve. I don't, 337 00:21:17.080 --> 00:21:19.260 it rarely comes up in conversation. 338 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:24.220 And I'm fortunate. I've suffered very little 339 00:21:24.360 --> 00:21:27.185 overt racism racism, 340 00:21:28.925 --> 00:21:32.365 but I still think it makes me aware of 341 00:21:32.365 --> 00:21:35.950 the tendency towards it and how awful it is when it 342 00:21:35.950 --> 00:21:39.630 happens. I sadly, I know plenty of people who have suffered direct 343 00:21:39.870 --> 00:21:43.645 directly, and and I'm aware that I'm fortunate 344 00:21:43.645 --> 00:21:47.485 to I I believe the expression expression I only heard in recent 345 00:21:47.485 --> 00:21:50.305 years, passing white. Yeah. 346 00:21:51.357 --> 00:21:54.980 Jo I I people don't assume that I would be a subject of 347 00:21:54.980 --> 00:21:58.654 racism unless they know my, my 348 00:21:58.654 --> 00:22:02.034 religion, which is an accident of birth. Birth parents of 349 00:22:02.174 --> 00:22:05.934 community that I might feel a part of didn't change 350 00:22:05.934 --> 00:22:09.090 who I am, didn't change what I do. And 351 00:22:09.950 --> 00:22:13.250 the the level of my involvement, 352 00:22:13.710 --> 00:22:17.455 commitment, and practice, which has changed enormously both 353 00:22:17.455 --> 00:22:21.215 up and down over the years, has no bearing on who I am, 354 00:22:21.215 --> 00:22:24.115 what I do, or how anybody engages with me. 355 00:22:24.575 --> 00:22:27.370 And and I don't see why 356 00:22:28.389 --> 00:22:31.990 somebody's color, race, gender, or whatever 357 00:22:31.990 --> 00:22:35.455 else should impact, the way that people engage with them 358 00:22:35.455 --> 00:22:39.135 in in the same way. It's very true. 359 00:22:39.135 --> 00:22:40.755 And I meet a lot of people who 360 00:22:42.910 --> 00:22:46.370 have a, call it a minority characteristic or 361 00:22:46.990 --> 00:22:50.750 something about them that is not typical or the majority in the 362 00:22:50.750 --> 00:22:54.285 world. And they are always more sensitive and more aware 363 00:22:54.585 --> 00:22:58.365 of the impact, as you say, of racism, sexism and the need to be inclusive. 364 00:23:00.290 --> 00:23:03.030 It's often the case where people have never had that experience. 365 00:23:04.290 --> 00:23:07.970 They don't see the need to be to be thoughtful of it. Absolutely. They're not 366 00:23:07.970 --> 00:23:11.515 aware. Yeah. It's their just they just are. It's not their fault. 367 00:23:11.735 --> 00:23:15.255 It's just they've never never had to think wake up and think about it. And 368 00:23:15.815 --> 00:23:19.149 I'm sure that's absolutely right. I I love the statistic that, 369 00:23:19.230 --> 00:23:22.830 on average, the average the average 370 00:23:22.830 --> 00:23:24.690 human has less than 2 eyes. 371 00:23:26.735 --> 00:23:30.495 Yes. And that's because nobody's got more than 2, but there are some people with 372 00:23:30.495 --> 00:23:33.635 only 1 or or a blind and have have none. 373 00:23:34.175 --> 00:23:37.950 And I'm not sure why I thought that was 374 00:23:38.169 --> 00:23:41.770 relevant. But I think also the other 375 00:23:41.770 --> 00:23:45.585 statistic is that, on average humans 376 00:23:45.585 --> 00:23:47.445 have less than one testicle. Yes. 377 00:23:50.545 --> 00:23:53.622 Which I also thought was quite an which I also thought was quite an interesting 378 00:23:53.622 --> 00:23:57.440 concept. Lots of people relevant, yes. And people look 379 00:23:57.440 --> 00:23:59.440 at you and go and then they work it out and think oh yeah I 380 00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:03.245 get it now, yes it's kind of because every 381 00:24:03.245 --> 00:24:06.765 bat has 2 and half the population don't have any. So, yeah, it's, 382 00:24:08.205 --> 00:24:11.929 ding. Your dinner's ready. I have no idea 383 00:24:11.929 --> 00:24:15.290 what or where that was. I think it was a l I think it was 384 00:24:15.290 --> 00:24:18.615 a l e x a, but I'm not gonna say the name. With a bit 385 00:24:18.615 --> 00:24:22.375 of a ping. Yeah. We could talk to alexa later. Yeah. Let's try 386 00:24:22.375 --> 00:24:23.115 not to. 387 00:24:26.320 --> 00:24:30.160 So yeah you're not practicing accountants anymore but you obviously through 388 00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:33.600 your tax advice network you're working with, I 389 00:24:33.600 --> 00:24:36.445 presume, practicing tax advisers and accountants. 390 00:24:37.225 --> 00:24:40.605 Do you see that industry changing? Because when I first came across 391 00:24:41.065 --> 00:24:44.770 the accountancy practice, which was probably in the mid early to mid 392 00:24:44.770 --> 00:24:48.390 90s where my my best friend, who ended up being my business partner 393 00:24:48.450 --> 00:24:52.055 and my accountant, always positioned himself as 394 00:24:52.130 --> 00:24:55.875 Joanne accountant with attitude, an accountant who's different, wanted to bust 395 00:24:55.875 --> 00:24:59.715 this myth of this stale old accountant that he wanted to come and shake it 396 00:24:59.715 --> 00:25:03.420 all up and and give a bit of real passion and personality into the 397 00:25:03.420 --> 00:25:06.940 into the into the impression. So do you see that's kind of evolving or do 398 00:25:06.940 --> 00:25:09.304 you still think there's a lot of I think there's there's a lot to be 399 00:25:09.304 --> 00:25:12.765 done, but it it has evolved enormously. When I 400 00:25:13.145 --> 00:25:16.905 when I first qualified, the the the small firm accountants I 401 00:25:16.905 --> 00:25:20.440