Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the Inclusion
Joanne Lockwood: Bites podcast. In this series, I've been interviewing a number of
Joanne Lockwood: amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subject of inclusion,
Joanne Lockwood: belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to
Joanne Lockwood: thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me
Joanne Lockwood: a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. Of course, you can
Joanne Lockwood: catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify, and the usual
Joanne Lockwood: places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf,
Joanne Lockwood: and let's get going. Today is
Joanne Lockwood: episode 29 with the title, giving yourself
Joanne Lockwood: a gold star. I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined
Joanne Lockwood: by Pam Burrows. Pam describes herself as someone who helps
Joanne Lockwood: organizations manage and reduce stress, and she works
Joanne Lockwood: with their teams to build their own well-being toolkit.
Joanne Lockwood: When I asked Pam to describe her superpower, she said it's her
Joanne Lockwood: ability to sparkle. Hello, Pam. Welcome
Joanne Lockwood: to the show. Thank you, Jo. Chuffed to be here.
Joanne Lockwood: Awesome. Happy New Year. I mean, where are we now? Yeah. We'll have to say
Pam Burrows: that. We're into the, we're up to the 7th now? Well, I I
Pam Burrows: would say if I if I haven't seen you yet, we can say happy New
Pam Burrows: Year. Yeah. Christmas Decades Away,
Joanne Lockwood: terrorist acts going on in Capitol Hill in America. The world has gone
Joanne Lockwood: crazy. I really hoped we're going to see the end of the world
Joanne Lockwood: unprecedented, but everything still seems to be unprecedented.
Joanne Lockwood: What's going on in the world? Who knows? Yeah. It's crazy.
Joanne Lockwood: It's just crazy. And as I I hope
Joanne Lockwood: that after the year of Brexit, after the year of
Joanne Lockwood: COVID, unprecedented will be because signed in history because we're now precedent,
Joanne Lockwood: we've done it all before, but no no no no all the customs
Joanne Lockwood: embargos, the paperwork is there, the fact is we've now got
Joanne Lockwood: an unprecedented
Joanne Lockwood: unprecedented is here to stay for another year. Jo, so,
Joanne Lockwood: Pam, tell me about your gold stars. Where do they come from?
Pam Burrows: Well, they come off the Internet, actually, in a physical sense. So
Pam Burrows: when I, in in the olden days when we were in person
Pam Burrows: doing conferences and training courses, I would give
Pam Burrows: everybody a little sparkly star sticker at the end of our
Pam Burrows: session. And the idea is that, they can have gold one, or they
Pam Burrows: can have a silver one if gold's not their color. And,
Pam Burrows: and, basically, I tell them they can stick it where they like, and
Pam Burrows: it's to remind them it's to remind
Pam Burrows: them that they are a star and star stands for someone
Pam Burrows: truly amazing. And then when they get all shy and go,
Pam Burrows: oh, really? Then that's what the r is for. Yes. Really.
Pam Burrows: Someone truly amazing. Yes. Really. And the
Pam Burrows: session leading up to them getting their star sticker is
Pam Burrows: basically me helping them to realize what they bring to the world,
Pam Burrows: to stop undermining that and denying it and to
Pam Burrows: celebrate it because, there's there's now plenty of
Pam Burrows: research to show that it's not just a a bit of an
Pam Burrows: Americanism of positive thinking to recognize your
Pam Burrows: strengths, but actually it's it's a huge plays a huge
Pam Burrows: part in our resilience and our ability to thrive, which you're all
Pam Burrows: about. Well, I still
Joanne Lockwood: proudly got my gold star, and I snuck it on a a name Joanne,
Joanne Lockwood: actually. And I remember when I saw you speak, and
Joanne Lockwood: do your sort of brief session you did for the PSA
Joanne Lockwood: one evening, I remember you came along with your big inflatable mallet
Joanne Lockwood: and you all talked about how we we all want to beat ourselves up all
Joanne Lockwood: the time, we we see the negatives in ourselves. And I seem to remember about
Joanne Lockwood: 3 or 4 months ago I had this incident where I was really beating myself
Joanne Lockwood: up about something and that image of you with your mallet kept popping into my
Joanne Lockwood: hair, my gold star, and I just thought I just gotta get over this. I
Joanne Lockwood: gotta see the positives out of this, not all the negatives. And
Joanne Lockwood: so that session that you did that night really inspired me and I've heard still
Joanne Lockwood: carry that with me today. Oh, that's gorgeous. Thank you so much
Pam Burrows: for sharing that. That's lovely. I think that's the thing about being a
Pam Burrows: speaker and using props or a teacher or, you know, anybody
Pam Burrows: using a some kind of visual. You know, if if
Pam Burrows: there's something visual, something auditory, something that relates to
Pam Burrows: people's emotions, then they're more likely to remember that. And I I feel very,
Pam Burrows: passionate. It's a bit of an overused word. But my my focus
Pam Burrows: now, especially since lockdown, is to really
Pam Burrows: do lots and lots of things that stick with people. You
Pam Burrows: know? So, in the past, I might have done,
Pam Burrows: a whole day or or even series of days on stress
Pam Burrows: reduction, but I might have done more, talking
Pam Burrows: through with people what they could do. Whereas now, especially,
Pam Burrows: since the the the last 10 months that we've just had, I've
Pam Burrows: been saying to people, right, let's do that now. Let's do this stress
Pam Burrows: reduction breathing technique or visualization or
Pam Burrows: a way of thinking, some kind of physical movements that
Pam Burrows: change the nervous system. And and what I'm finding is
Pam Burrows: it makes more of a difference because people might say,
Pam Burrows: oh, yes, that's a good idea. I'll try that tomorrow. And they don't. Whereas
Pam Burrows: if they actually do it in the session, feel the difference,
Pam Burrows: they go, oh my god. I'm gonna do this again. And, so I'm
Pam Burrows: getting, a lot more feedback now about,
Pam Burrows: the things that people are doing differently. So I'm chuffed about that.
Pam Burrows: And the the star, of course, is a little visual to remind people
Pam Burrows: to to do whatever their thing was that they thought, yeah, I'm
Pam Burrows: gonna pledge to to do that. But as you said in
Pam Burrows: the in the introduction, Jo, for me, it's got to be a
Pam Burrows: 2 part thing. So I could go in
Pam Burrows: and teach whole organizations to
Pam Burrows: individually have a great toolkit for stress reduction and
Pam Burrows: well-being. But if the organization itself structurally
Pam Burrows: is, you know, putting too much pressure on people, not
Pam Burrows: supporting them well enough, having unreasonable
Pam Burrows: demands, you know, all of these things, then,
Pam Burrows: really I'm just teaching people how to be tolerant of,
Pam Burrows: an unsafe situation. So I like to I like to talk to the
Pam Burrows: organisation first about what they're gonna set up with policies, procedures,
Pam Burrows: and strategies, which enable people to
Pam Burrows: bring their whole self to work and feel safe. When I say bring to work,
Pam Burrows: that might be to their own dining table, but to to bring
Pam Burrows: themselves and feel safe in that environment and, that
Pam Burrows: they're acknowledged, respected, cared for, and, that they're,
Pam Burrows: you know, they're not given undue pressure.
Joanne Lockwood: Because it everyone reacts to stress differently or situations differently,
Joanne Lockwood: so there's no one size fits all. So somebody who is coping
Joanne Lockwood: well in a situation is not the same
Joanne Lockwood: as somebody who is taking on anxieties, that they're
Joanne Lockwood: perceiving their interactions with their with their colleagues, their boss, their
Joanne Lockwood: workload in a subtly different way, aren't they? And so we can't just
Joanne Lockwood: say well I'm I'm I'm not stressed, I'm okay, the work's fine, but But may
Joanne Lockwood: I ask you, somebody maybe have maybe masking and covering that, won't they? Oh, yeah.
Pam Burrows: Some people are really, really good. I've got, a little book, called
Pam Burrows: burnout buster. And in there, I talk about 33 red flags that you're
Pam Burrows: heading for burnout, 33 things to do about it. And one of those
Pam Burrows: things is when you keep saying you're fine, you know, and
Pam Burrows: especially if those who love and care about you are saying, are you
Pam Burrows: sure you're fine? I I don't think you're fine, and you're getting
Pam Burrows: irritated by that. That that's a huge red flag
Pam Burrows: because, you know, one of the one of the things that we say around
Pam Burrows: burnout and overwhelm is that people who
Pam Burrows: finally go pop are not weak people. They're people who've
Pam Burrows: been too strong for too long. And, and that's
Pam Burrows: that's really key. You know, if you're
Pam Burrows: checking in with somebody, the the question needs to be, how are you
Pam Burrows: really? You know? And to to do that, you've got to
Pam Burrows: have, you know, if we're talking about an organization, you've got to have a culture
Pam Burrows: of trust for people to be able to answer that honestly and not
Pam Burrows: feel that their job's in danger or they're gonna be seen as not coping
Pam Burrows: and not not competent. And so it's about how you
Pam Burrows: create that culture of it's it's okay to say you're not
Pam Burrows: okay, to to quote the phrase around mental illness.
Pam Burrows: And, and then to to
Pam Burrows: to have something in your organisation that you can do
Pam Burrows: with that, you know. You can't just ask the question, have people feel safe
Pam Burrows: enough to say, actually, Jo. I'm not okay. And then you're like, what do I
Pam Burrows: do with that? You know? I don't actually know how to help you. So it's
Pam Burrows: a it's about having a a whole strategy for that. But I
Pam Burrows: think the the I'm fine stuff is a real issue.
Pam Burrows: And through lockdown, well, right since last
Pam Burrows: March, really, I
Pam Burrows: I defy anybody to say that they haven't, at some point, been a little
Pam Burrows: bit stressed for whatever reason. And it's like there's
Pam Burrows: a background You know? Even if you feel like you're coping, you're
Pam Burrows: eating well, you're, you know, you're cutting out the alcohol, you're
Pam Burrows: getting outside, you're, you know, kind of doing all those healthy things,
Pam Burrows: it's likely that there's still that sense of a background of
Pam Burrows: a of a national and international crisis.
Pam Burrows: And so, you know, it doesn't take much to scratch beneath the surface.
Pam Burrows: There was a few people that said to me, no, the pandemic, you know,
Pam Burrows: I'm just getting on with things. I'm I'm okay. And then in the
Pam Burrows: conversation, they'd say something about that they were drinking more wine than usual or
Pam Burrows: that they weren't sleeping very well. It just made me smile really because I
Pam Burrows: was thinking, you know, the signs are there, those little red flags
Pam Burrows: that actually, even if it's unconscious, you're being
Pam Burrows: affected by that. So you might be saying that you're fine, but actually you do
Pam Burrows: need to have some strategies in place to make sure that
Pam Burrows: you are getting good sleep because that boosts the immune system and
Pam Burrows: that you're focused on what you what you need to stay healthy.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. For sure. Picking up on on what you're saying
Joanne Lockwood: there, pre COVID,
Joanne Lockwood: when you bumped into someone and said, oh, how are you? How are you doing?
Joanne Lockwood: That was like a a 5 second conversation. I'm alright. You're alright. We're alright.
Joanne Lockwood: But do you find now that with COVID we're jumping on a Zoom call like
Joanne Lockwood: this, we're having a we're doing a podcast interview, we both spend a lot
Joanne Lockwood: of time online talking to people. I'm how are you is no longer
Joanne Lockwood: a 5 second conversation. It's it's become a more in-depth. People
Joanne Lockwood: are willing to be more vulnerable because they don't feel so alone in this
Joanne Lockwood: in this storm we're all in. We're all in different boats, but we're in the
Joanne Lockwood: big same storm. So saying, no, I'm struggling is actually allowed
Joanne Lockwood: now, isn't it? So do you think people have got more permission to be more
Joanne Lockwood: authentic about not being fine? I think Jo. And I think
Pam Burrows: that that that's come through various Joanne.
Pam Burrows: Like, you know, I I phoned the HMRC to talk about my
Pam Burrows: tax, And it was a a young woman who,
Pam Burrows: the dog started barking because Amazon had arrived, you know, and she had to
Pam Burrows: leave the call to go and get a parcel. I'm thinking this is the HMRC,
Pam Burrows: you know? And then I was talking to a customer on Zoom
Pam Burrows: and, he showed me his new baby, which, I mean, that would never have
Pam Burrows: happened in his office, you know, where we'd normally have had a a meeting about
Pam Burrows: his, the training I was doing for his team. And
Pam Burrows: so, and so then I'd seen the baby. We'd had a lot of laugh. We
Pam Burrows: feel more comfortable. And and
Pam Burrows: that whole thing about saying that you're not okay, you know, if people can see
Pam Burrows: each other in their home environments over video,
Pam Burrows: I think just that in itself has has opened up a whole
Pam Burrows: thing about people being able to, be
Pam Burrows: comfortable with being honest about how they are. But also
Pam Burrows: that as you just said there, we're all experiencing a
Pam Burrows: thing. We're experiencing it differently, but it's the same thing
Pam Burrows: that we we're being affected by. And there really is
Pam Burrows: something about that, you know, because mostly, if you're I
Pam Burrows: don't know. Let's say you're experiencing a relationship breakdown
Pam Burrows: or, health problems or, you know,
Pam Burrows: maybe a parent's gone into a care home. It's your individual
Pam Burrows: experience and finding somebody who wants
Pam Burrows: to listen to that, and and is gonna be the person you feel comfortable
Pam Burrows: talking to is, you know, it's a whole different matter. But now
Pam Burrows: we've got this commonality and, yeah, it's permission to to
Pam Burrows: say because so many people are really struggling,
Pam Burrows: it's it's no longer you're you're an usual person over
Pam Burrows: here having an individual experience. You you're you're in
Pam Burrows: this in this thing that everybody can relate to, and, and people
Pam Burrows: are expecting you to say, actually, I'm not brilliant today. And
Pam Burrows: and suddenly the the level of I'm fine has has changed.
Pam Burrows: And I think it's all there's a lot of good things. I I work with,
Pam Burrows: an organization called Harmless who work with
Pam Burrows: people, with, issues
Pam Burrows: around self harm and suicide. And,
Pam Burrows: they're rushed off their feet. Unbelievable amount of support
Pam Burrows: they're having to put in. But having said that, there are some people
Pam Burrows: experiencing severe anxiety who aren't now
Pam Burrows: having to do the things that that ramped up that anxiety, you know, the
Pam Burrows: social situations and, and such. So,
Pam Burrows: yeah. But I I do think the it's much easier to speak
Pam Burrows: about how you're feeling right now, and and and that's a good thing.
Joanne Lockwood: I I started analyzing my own psyche at the moment because
Joanne Lockwood: I've detected that I've become a bit of a recluse.
Joanne Lockwood: I don't actively seek an opportunity to go out out of the home.
Joanne Lockwood: If I actively, if we weren't going shopping to
Joanne Lockwood: Sainsbury's, I wouldn't go out. And I'm not doing any
Joanne Lockwood: exercise, I'm not walking up and down the road or or taking my half an
Joanne Lockwood: hour, not doing anything. So I'm I'm being very conscious about the fact that I'm
Joanne Lockwood: I'm kind comfortable in my own little home bubble and we only live in a
Joanne Lockwood: 2 bedroom flat. So it's not like we've got got a garden or any space,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, our front door is into the common area. And I it
Joanne Lockwood: reminded me of when I was at San Diego Zoo back in the late nineties.
Joanne Lockwood: I I I saw this polar bear in its in its enclosure
Joanne Lockwood: and superficially, this polar bear looked great. It it
Joanne Lockwood: was a big area, lots of there's some rocks, some grass,
Joanne Lockwood: a tree in there, and there was a big big, pool where
Joanne Lockwood: you could dive in and it was it was you go into the pool and
Joanne Lockwood: shake it. Jo I I just sort of sat and watched it, oh, this polar
Joanne Lockwood: bear looks like it's having a great time. But after 5 minutes, I
Joanne Lockwood: realized this polar bear was doing an identical thing in
Joanne Lockwood: repeat. He was walking out to the tree, rubbing his bottom on
Joanne Lockwood: it in the same place. He would take 4 paces, he would then dive into
Joanne Lockwood: the water. He'd push off the bottom of the of the water in the same
Joanne Lockwood: place, put the same paw up and climb out, shake,
Joanne Lockwood: touch the tree, back and repeat. So this was like a 15, 22nd
Joanne Lockwood: repeated cycle. And most people who went into that zoo
Joanne Lockwood: would have just seen, ah, happy polar bear, but it's only the fact that I
Joanne Lockwood: stood there and watched this polar bear for 10 minutes and I thought,
Joanne Lockwood: wow. And so I'm starting to feel that polar bear syndrome now. I'm getting
Joanne Lockwood: out of bed. I'm sitting in this chair. I'm doing my
Joanne Lockwood: podcast. I'm doing my my training, whatever I'm doing. I'm getting up at
Joanne Lockwood: lunchtime, putting a can of soup in the microwave, 2 slices of toast, sitting
Joanne Lockwood: back down, eating it, starting the next Zoom call. And then we'll
Joanne Lockwood: sit down, have tea in the evening, we'll watch 2 or 3 hours of television,
Joanne Lockwood: bit of Netflix, whatever we do. And the same happens weekends, we get
Joanne Lockwood: up, Netflix, binge, maybe go shopping
Joanne Lockwood: and then Monday morning we start again. And I started thinking, I'm the
Joanne Lockwood: polar bear. I've become this polar bear. There's no variety in my life. I'm just
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not unhappy as a person. I've I just don't have anything
Joanne Lockwood: more going on. And I've I think my 2021 kind
Joanne Lockwood: of thought process is to now I've now I've identified that, what can I
Joanne Lockwood: do? How can I how can I disrupt that? Otherwise, I'm gonna be
Joanne Lockwood: in trouble by the end of the year if I just keep being that polar
Joanne Lockwood: bear. And that's that's what I've gotta kinda work on now. Jo, I mean, do
Joanne Lockwood: you have any any thoughts on that? Any advice? Well, the the very first thing
Pam Burrows: that comes to mind is my mum. She's 83. We lost my
Pam Burrows: dad a year ago, and, she's basically been
Pam Burrows: grieving alone in isolation. You know, to start with, we could
Pam Burrows: only see each other through the window. And I was doing the shopping for it
Pam Burrows: after Levy set the door. And,
Pam Burrows: yeah. And and she's really been struggling. And she, she
Pam Burrows: started doing a little, diorama. So she
Pam Burrows: put little Lego people and different things out on,
Pam Burrows: on the sofa, and put what day it was. And it was to
Pam Burrows: initially, it was to remind herself what day it was because it all everything became
Pam Burrows: blursday, which is a phrase I learned yesterday that was quite cool.
Pam Burrows: Blursday. What day is it? I have no idea. And so she
Pam Burrows: she did that, and then she started photographing it and putting it up on Facebook
Pam Burrows: each day. Well, it's grown into this. She's got so much
Pam Burrows: stuff now. She's got all kinds of props and little
Pam Burrows: little scenes. And only yesterday, she,
Pam Burrows: for the first time, she's been doing it for nearly 200 days, I think,
Pam Burrows: now. But the, yesterday for the first time, she
Pam Burrows: put the exact same diorama, little little
Pam Burrows: display out as the day before. And the phrase she put on it
Pam Burrows: was Groundhog Day question mark. And so many people are
Pam Burrows: like, yes. That's what it feels like. And that's what she's been struggling with
Pam Burrows: that every day is the same. You get up, you go to the bathroom, you
Pam Burrows: have your breakfast, you watch the same telly, but she watches morning telly
Pam Burrows: and, and and that sense of repetitiveness. Now it's
Pam Burrows: interesting that you say, Jo, that you're you're a happy polar bear,
Pam Burrows: for the most part, but, I think sometimes
Pam Burrows: the feelings of, low mood can
Pam Burrows: creep up on us because we've we've not really
Pam Burrows: changed that routine and and judged it up a little bit. So
Pam Burrows: one of the things that we know about that background of
Pam Burrows: stress is that the adrenaline and the cortisol
Pam Burrows: that come with being on kind of medium alert all of the time,
Pam Burrows: rising to high alert when there's some kind of news
Pam Burrows: coming coming with the next next challenge is that
Pam Burrows: that's that's keeping us switched on,
Pam Burrows: and it stops us from, fully relaxing so
Pam Burrows: that the body can do its maintenance. So what we really need
Pam Burrows: is to, to find ways to completely switch
Pam Burrows: off so that we switch off those stress hormones, but also to
Pam Burrows: generate the good hormones that that lift our
Pam Burrows: spirits and our immune system. So going back to the gold star
Pam Burrows: thing, I have something called the CARE model, which is
Pam Burrows: my model of well-being. And the,
Pam Burrows: the a of the CARE model stands for acknowledge
Pam Burrows: because what we what we know through, quite a bit of research
Pam Burrows: now is the lift in spirit that you get
Pam Burrows: when you start acknowledging your even little successes.
Pam Burrows: You get a little burst of serotonin, the feel good hormone, which,
Pam Burrows: if we don't get enough of that, there is there is,
Pam Burrows: some science that says we get it through chocolate and cheese. So if you're if
Pam Burrows: you're eating more chocolate and cheese than you really should or want
Pam Burrows: to, if you want to eat less of that, then the alternative
Pam Burrows: because the other thing we know through neuroscience is that
Pam Burrows: it's much easier to do more of something than to try and do less of
Pam Burrows: something. So if you say, right, I'm gonna have less chocolate today, you'll obsess about
Pam Burrows: chocolate. Whereas if you say, I'm gonna have more fruit today or I'm gonna
Pam Burrows: have more exercise today, then that's what you're focused on. And so
Pam Burrows: when we when we start to acknowledge what's happened in the
Pam Burrows: day, get a little burst of serotonin, we feel very
Pam Burrows: satisfied, get to the end of the day and actually write those
Pam Burrows: things down in a little notebook at the side of your bed, then you'll you'll
Pam Burrows: actually fall asleep easier and, have better dreams
Pam Burrows: and wake more refreshed. So fascinating stuff,
Pam Burrows: just that very small habit of noticing the good
Pam Burrows: stuff even if it's just, you know, I I actually put
Pam Burrows: trousers on today or I didn't shout to
Pam Burrows: anybody. You know? Just those little little wings that
Pam Burrows: may may actually need, you know, a little bit of acknowledgment
Pam Burrows: because there's there's not a huge amount to to celebrate. But the other thing
Pam Burrows: is is, rather than thinking, well, I can't go to a
Pam Burrows: party, I can't go to the pub, I can't meet with friends, is think, how
Pam Burrows: can I get something similar? So I've
Pam Burrows: done things like, I've had a weekend camping with
Pam Burrows: friends, been to birthday parties,
Pam Burrows: I started running online spa retreats all on
Pam Burrows: Zoom. So it's all possible. You know, the camping trip, we all
Pam Burrows: post well, those that could put a tent up in our gardens, had a
Pam Burrows: bonfire, And, we were on Zoom for the for the
Pam Burrows: most of the weekend. We did yoga together. We had a dog show. We did
Pam Burrows: all kinds of things all on Zoom. And and don't underestimate
Pam Burrows: the lift in your spirits when you do those things even though you're not
Pam Burrows: in person with those people that you're close to. It does make a
Pam Burrows: difference to have that social contact. And, and, you
Pam Burrows: know, the fact that you're on video and you can make eye contact,
Pam Burrows: which also gives us a little bit more chemistry for you. It
Pam Burrows: gives us a burst of oxytocin, which is, sometimes known as the love
Pam Burrows: drug. It gives us a little lift. So never underestimate
Pam Burrows: the the power of doing those things. The the problem being, of course,
Pam Burrows: if you if you're on, if you're on video calls
Pam Burrows: for most of the day through work, then you think, oh, I can't do another
Pam Burrows: Zoom tonight for social. But, you know, maybe don't look at the
Pam Burrows: screen so much, but just still experience that social
Pam Burrows: connection. It's really, really important. We we actually,
Pam Burrows: as humans, we die without enough oxytocin, without that
Pam Burrows: connection with another human being. So don't underestimate how much you
Pam Burrows: might need those top ups. Yeah. Jo
Joanne Lockwood: I I schedule
Joanne Lockwood: Zoom calls with people not for work purposes. Well, the
Joanne Lockwood: the the the the the professional colleagues or associates are people
Joanne Lockwood: I know, but actually the purpose of the call really is just to have a
Joanne Lockwood: laugh, have a chat. I mean, one of the reasons I love doing these podcasts
Joanne Lockwood: is I get to have chats with people I haven't spoken to for a while,
Joanne Lockwood: we get an hour together, etcetera. And I had a good chat with, a mutual
Joanne Lockwood: friend of ours, Peter Edge, yesterday, and he wanted he wanted
Joanne Lockwood: some help with something around, live translations and and
Joanne Lockwood: subtitling. And, we we did a bit of that and then we spent the
Joanne Lockwood: rest of the probably an hour and a half just having like a comedy
Joanne Lockwood: double act, we were just talking about stuff. And at the end of it, we
Joanne Lockwood: were laughing our heads off, we were falling around and we both said we
Joanne Lockwood: should have recorded this, this is this is this is die metal material, we could
Joanne Lockwood: have we could have put this out of podcast series. But it was it
Joanne Lockwood: was such good fun. Like, at the end of it, I just felt really, really
Joanne Lockwood: lifted. And you're so right. That's what we need. We need to make sure we
Joanne Lockwood: keep projecting ourselves with the with the laugh, with the
Joanne Lockwood: fun, with the with the for the face we haven't seen for a while. Does
Joanne Lockwood: that bring that snap us out our polar bear
Joanne Lockwood: routine, isn't it? It's just to give us something else to think about. Yeah. You're
Joanne Lockwood: so right. Yeah. Absolutely. And you gotta do it on purpose because, of course, it
Pam Burrows: used to happen by accident. You know, you'd just have a a meeting that you
Pam Burrows: were going to, and you'd end up having a chat with somebody over the coffee
Pam Burrows: break that would lift your spirits. You know, things would happen that so a friend
Pam Burrows: would invite you out or you just pop out to dinner without, you know,
Pam Burrows: without having planned it. Let's go out to a restaurant tonight. Those things would
Pam Burrows: happen spontaneously, but we have to do it on purpose now. And I think that's
Pam Burrows: one of the problems if people do have issues around anxiety
Pam Burrows: and or depression is that you kind of spiral down, you start
Pam Burrows: to close in because you don't feel like you've got the energy or, you know,
Pam Burrows: people often hear people say, well, who would want to spend time with me
Pam Burrows: even on Zoom when I'm so miserable? And so
Pam Burrows: they close down when actually the the very thing that's that's going to help us
Pam Burrows: out of that situation is making those connections and,
Pam Burrows: having a bit of a laugh. But, I mean, you can you can do it
Pam Burrows: without having to connect with somebody. You know, get on YouTube and don't get drawn
Pam Burrows: into all the news stuff or the depressing stuff. You know, find find
Pam Burrows: a comedian, find find some slapstick comedy from
Pam Burrows: from the black and white era, you know, whatever it is that's that's that's gonna
Pam Burrows: be good for you. Even a, you know, a soppy film that you can have
Pam Burrows: a good cry, you know, a good cry releases tension and allowing
Pam Burrows: that kind of, you know, the peaks and troughs of emotions
Pam Burrows: that were were much more natural before before lockdown.
Pam Burrows: But, yeah, Peter Edge is very funny. I could imagine you 2 being a
Pam Burrows: real good double act. I would have liked to have seen that recording.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. It it it was yeah. It was I I don't know
Joanne Lockwood: if I I know if I'm betraying you as he could say, but he's he's,
Joanne Lockwood: taking a course to be a a wedding celebrant at the moment. Yes. No. You
Pam Burrows: did say that. And we were talking about we were cracking jokes around that
Joanne Lockwood: and, and joked about the fact it's probably this is
Joanne Lockwood: a bad taste joke that you should have you should have been a funeral celebrant.
Joanne Lockwood: You've probably been far busier right now. And then we were
Joanne Lockwood: talking about all of the sort of, like, the the irony of of that. And
Joanne Lockwood: then we could talk about, funeral directors and and and informations, and it
Joanne Lockwood: it it was quite black black type humor, but it was
Joanne Lockwood: quite it wasn't at anyone's expense. It was just kinda dark humor. But, yeah, it
Joanne Lockwood: was quite funny. We were really were a bit roaring a bit roaring away.
Joanne Lockwood: And that just came out of him to say, oh, yeah. I'm I'm becoming a
Joanne Lockwood: betting celebrant. Wow. But, yeah, it's it's easy
Joanne Lockwood: it's easily done. I think if you've got someone you can relate to, just have
Joanne Lockwood: that laugh. And I I we started doing it as a family.
Joanne Lockwood: We do we do WhatsApp calls. We do a 5 way WhatsApp call just
Joanne Lockwood: with my son, daughter, daughter fiance, my wife and
Joanne Lockwood: I, so all joining in. It started on a couple of birthdays. We did it.
Joanne Lockwood: Now we can't try and do it regularly and my mom will always FaceTime me
Joanne Lockwood: on a Sunday morning, 11 o'clock. Sometimes I'm in bed. I haven't got
Joanne Lockwood: out, but I think, what the heck? It doesn't matter. Sometimes I'm up and I'm
Joanne Lockwood: eating my breakfast, but we just have an hour together just to make sure we've
Joanne Lockwood: got that time. And I I think I'm actually
Joanne Lockwood: seeing more of people. Although
Joanne Lockwood: it's in the in the polar bear cage, you know, I'm still in my polar
Joanne Lockwood: bear cage, but I'm still seeing more people having more conversations than I ever
Joanne Lockwood: did before. Yeah. And geography is not an issue, which is which is
Pam Burrows: great. We're we're me and my mom have been having some calls with our Canadian
Pam Burrows: relatives, and, that's just been really special. The
Pam Burrows: time time difference is a is a little bit tricky. But,
Pam Burrows: my just very quickly, my my mom was adopted as adopted as a baby,
Pam Burrows: and she only found birth family when she was in her late sixties.
Pam Burrows: And so, through the Internet. And
Pam Burrows: so the cousins that we, now have are
Pam Burrows: my mum's you know, the first first time she's ever had a
Pam Burrows: conversation with somebody that she's actually got a blood past with.
Pam Burrows: You know? And, so those those conversations have
Pam Burrows: been very, very precious. And we could have been having them for the last few
Pam Burrows: years, but we're having them more regularly now because they're all locked down and nothing
Pam Burrows: to do. So, they've been really, really special
Pam Burrows: and, have meant a lot to my mum. So that's that's
Pam Burrows: gorgeous. They did come over a few years ago and spent a couple of weeks
Pam Burrows: with us, and my mom was just at her happiest. So when when
Pam Burrows: they call and do a video call, it, you know, revives that those memories.
Pam Burrows: And we chat about going for a picnic at Chatsworth and the lovely things
Pam Burrows: that we did. Because, of course, the the other thing just just going,
Pam Burrows: onto the the subject of thriving again is that
Pam Burrows: when you when you imagine or remember
Pam Burrows: happy times, the the brain and the body will
Pam Burrows: respond as if that's happening right now. Now the bad news is that you
Pam Burrows: can do that with negative things. So you start to, oh god, what's gonna happen
Pam Burrows: next? And, oh, what about that awful thing that happened yesterday? The body will
Pam Burrows: react as if that's happening for real right now. But, you know, the good
Pam Burrows: news is, the other side of the coin is when you just start to imagine
Pam Burrows: things, which is which is why the online spa that I do
Pam Burrows: works. I've got a, a video. Actually, it's available just on on
Pam Burrows: my YouTube channel, which is a holiday in the Maldives, And there's a video
Pam Burrows: of the sea rolling into the Maldives beach with my voice
Pam Burrows: over, doing doing a relaxation. So you watch the beach for
Pam Burrows: a few moments, then you close your eyes, imagine yourself there,
Pam Burrows: and you can actually this is the mad freaky thing
Pam Burrows: about the body. You can start to generate vitamin
Pam Burrows: d, by imagining the sunshine on your
Pam Burrows: face. So, you know, you're not actually out there in the sunshine
Pam Burrows: getting the the the vitamin d in the traditional way. So the power of being
Pam Burrows: able to imagine. So we need to really notice what we're, you
Pam Burrows: know, what we're driving ourselves crazy with. You know, what are you filling your head
Pam Burrows: with, and how can you switch that to you know, even if you're just
Pam Burrows: imagining a time when you were happy and did something
Pam Burrows: lovely outside of the polar bear cage, you know,
Pam Burrows: remember that time when? I think it just just reminded me actually.
Pam Burrows: Did you see that film? I can't remember which zoo it was, but
Pam Burrows: they because the zoo was closed down and not open to the public,
Pam Burrows: they gave the penguins a wander around the zoo. It's
Pam Burrows: almost you should find that video. It is so gorgeous. Yeah. So you
Pam Burrows: know those things where there's like the aquarium and you can go
Pam Burrows: they've made like a glass tunnel through the aquarium. So you you
Pam Burrows: walk through and the fish and whatever sharks or whatever
Pam Burrows: are swimming all around you. And the little penguins are walking through and we're
Pam Burrows: kinda looking at all the fish. That is just the most adorable
Pam Burrows: thing. And, I think they did it with other animals as well because, like, why
Pam Burrows: not? You know, it's the because the animals aren't getting that interaction with
Pam Burrows: the visitors. And, so, yeah, the
Pam Burrows: animals went to the zoo, which is just gorgeous. It's
Pam Burrows: just weird thinking out of the box, you know, do something you've never
Pam Burrows: done before. But but isn't that what's
Joanne Lockwood: going on at the moment? We've we've had all these years of you can't, that
Joanne Lockwood: would never work. And suddenly all of the can'ts, all of the won't work,
Joanne Lockwood: all of that fixed mindset, everyone's had to sort of they've
Joanne Lockwood: been nudged out of orbit and now you have to think of something new. And
Joanne Lockwood: some of the things that are going on, the creativity, the inspiration,
Joanne Lockwood: and the innovation that's going on is incredible. So I'm not saying that the the
Joanne Lockwood: ends justify the means or something, but but out of this I hope we
Joanne Lockwood: retain a lot of the spirit. We've we've gained a lot of inspiration. Well,
Pam Burrows: the one of the things that I, noticed a few years ago is
Pam Burrows: that I dress for my mood. So if I if I'm feeling quite
Pam Burrows: chirpy in the morning, I will wear a tutu and diamantes
Pam Burrows: just even if I'm just around the house. I just kind of address
Pam Burrows: to, then sometimes I'll do that to cheer myself up. So I
Pam Burrows: started a little Facebook group called Dress Up to Cheer Up, and,
Pam Burrows: we post photos of dressing up for taking the bins out
Pam Burrows: or going to the supermarket. And, and then
Pam Burrows: I started a a little Zoom weekly Zoom,
Pam Burrows: on a Wednesday morning for people with Alzheimer's and their carers,
Pam Burrows: but, actually, there's my mom and all her friends and lots of people
Pam Burrows: just join in. And we sing. And we have the,
Pam Burrows: everybody's on mute, and we have the lyrics on the screen.
Pam Burrows: And, it's about 45 minutes, and we just
Pam Burrows: and we have chats in between. And it's just lovely. And
Pam Burrows: people are like, oh, Pam, you're such an angel putting that on for free. I'm
Pam Burrows: like, no. This is social. This is fun. This
Pam Burrows: is me being able to sing even though I can't sing in tune. I
Pam Burrows: am having the time of my life, and I get to excuse my
Pam Burrows: nonsense because somebody's joining me who's also enjoying it. So I'm
Pam Burrows: allowed. And, it's just the bestest fun.
Pam Burrows: So, yeah, just doing you know, there's no way I would have sat
Pam Burrows: doing an online spa with my feet in a bucket of bubble bath. Well,
Pam Burrows: it's not even a bucket. It's, it's a plastic drawer from a
Pam Burrows: storage unit, not even a proper foot spa. There's no way
Pam Burrows: and and to start with it, it was in the summer. So I was doing
Pam Burrows: it in my shed. In my shed, in a tutu in diamantes with
Pam Burrows: my feet in a bucket kit on Zoom telling other
Pam Burrows: people how to do self massage, self reflexology,
Pam Burrows: pretend you're on a Maldives beach, breathing techniques, reduce stress.
Pam Burrows: Never would I have ever thought of doing that, but
Pam Burrows: but neither would I have been able to take it,
Pam Burrows: the step further. And I'm now getting paid to do that. And
Pam Burrows: I spoke to a business adviser in the summer, and she said to me, oh,
Pam Burrows: I think it's fab. If you've got individuals who want to do that with you,
Pam Burrows: that's brilliant. But I don't think you're gonna be selling that into organizations.
Pam Burrows: And I said, no. You're probably right. And now I am because
Pam Burrows: everybody's thinking well, not everybody. So many
Pam Burrows: more people are thinking, we don't have to do what we always do. You know,
Pam Burrows: if we're having a team meeting or a staff conference
Pam Burrows: or, or a Christmas party, you know, whatever we're
Pam Burrows: doing, if everybody's at home, why not make it
Pam Burrows: that everybody's got their feet in a bucket? I want a mission to get as
Pam Burrows: many people with their feet in a bucket as possible. And,
Pam Burrows: and and then now I'm getting paid to do exactly
Pam Burrows: what I would just love to do anyway. And, yeah, I just
Pam Burrows: feel really lucky about that. But as I said before, what I'm
Pam Burrows: also realizing is, there's a there's a
Pam Burrows: famous quote, and I can't remember who said it, but it's about,
Pam Burrows: writing. And it's something like, no tears in the eyes
Pam Burrows: of the writer, no tears in the eyes of the reader. And
Pam Burrows: it feels like that because I've chosen something, which
Pam Burrows: absolutely lights me up, makes me I could almost cry
Pam Burrows: sometimes when I'm doing it because I love it so much.
Pam Burrows: And so because I feel so strongly about it, of course there's, you know,
Pam Burrows: I'm not a unique human being. There's gonna be other people who are gonna
Pam Burrows: love to do that too. Some people don't. You know, I did a conversation with
Pam Burrows: a customer yesterday who said, I don't think we'll run a spa past our
Pam Burrows: our people. You know, they're they're gonna be a bit cynical about that. So can
Pam Burrows: we do something a little less fluffy? And I'm like, yeah. Of course. We can
Pam Burrows: do it. We can we can still do the shoulder massage and stuff. We you
Pam Burrows: don't have to don't have to wear a tutu, and you don't have to have
Pam Burrows: your feet in a bucket. But, yeah, just to to be able
Pam Burrows: to to to find other people who enjoy what I do rather
Pam Burrows: Joanne, you know, you kind of think, oh, well, we'll do something
Pam Burrows: middle ground, little bit beige, it'll suit everybody.
Pam Burrows: And, you know, it it wouldn't it wouldn't
Pam Burrows: spark me up, So then I'm not bringing my sparkle to the to
Pam Burrows: the screen. And, and it's not sparking anybody else up
Pam Burrows: really either. We're just kind of going through the motions. No.
Joanne Lockwood: You've you've gotta try and inject some energy and personality in
Joanne Lockwood: into the into the well, through the black mirror and out and out the other
Joanne Lockwood: side. That's that's the technique. And, you know, we've got some mutual friends, people like
Joanne Lockwood: Tom Morley, who is energizing people, activating their inner
Joanne Lockwood: rock star. And I've I've I've helped him,
Joanne Lockwood: emcee a few of those and, and done a few of it,
Joanne Lockwood: sort of, Zoom productions with him. And just being part of the
Joanne Lockwood: energy, you know, you've got you've got 50, 60 people in this on
Joanne Lockwood: this call from all over the world, from this corporate background, and they're all dancing,
Joanne Lockwood: they're all shaking, they're all having fun. And it is. It's about
Joanne Lockwood: bringing that energy. And I think when you said about that story about your tear
Joanne Lockwood: in your eye in the in the right side, not the in the reader's
Joanne Lockwood: eye, as as speakers, as trainers,
Joanne Lockwood: we that's part of our storytelling, isn't it? We have to tell that story
Joanne Lockwood: with that passion, with that experience. And if it's a tear in our
Joanne Lockwood: eye, if it's a glint, if it's if it's a passion, if it's
Joanne Lockwood: an excitement, that's how we convey through the feelings,
Joanne Lockwood: not just through the logic, isn't it? Yeah. That's the important. Yeah. You're absolutely right.
Pam Burrows: And then there's also I mean, it's it's all about balance because there's there's
Pam Burrows: another phrase that's relevant for speakers, which is you should always
Pam Burrows: speak from the, from the scar, not the
Pam Burrows: wound. So, like, if you're if you feel like you're still bleeding about
Pam Burrows: a particularly emotional issue, then that's not the time to speak about it. You
Pam Burrows: need to heal the wound, and then the scar will be there. And you're talking
Pam Burrows: from that place, which is and then you're much more likely to get the
Pam Burrows: message across rather than people just feel sorry for you or distressed by the
Pam Burrows: story or whatever. So that so there is a balance. But you're absolutely
Pam Burrows: right. Without that, without the tear in the eye,
Pam Burrows: you're you're just imparting information. And, you know, the people just read a
Pam Burrows: book, you know, read a handout, you know, flip through flip
Pam Burrows: through the PowerPoint slides that you might have produced for it. You
Pam Burrows: know, it's the in the storytelling your phone out and start wandering off or
Joanne Lockwood: or getting your email up and just and put yourself turn your camera off put
Joanne Lockwood: yourself on mute and you're just you're just doing this presenteeism stuff again all over
Joanne Lockwood: again aren't you? Just Yeah yeah yeah and people people want that
Pam Burrows: that that reality. You know, the very first time
Pam Burrows: I, had a tear in my eye whilst doing a presentation,
Pam Burrows: I came off stage. I thought, oh my goodness. What's the
Pam Burrows: person who's bud the budget holder for this conference
Pam Burrows: gonna say about, you know, she's up there with a tear in her eye and,
Pam Burrows: you know, like, little catch in my throat trying to say what it was I
Pam Burrows: wanted to say. And, I came off stage to
Pam Burrows: a queue of people wanting to talk to me to, you know, tell me
Pam Burrows: that it was, you know, really touched them and that's the thing. You know,
Pam Burrows: I had a tear in my eye That that connected the story
Pam Burrows: connected. It was about my dad with Alzheimer's. And,
Pam Burrows: and that connected with people in the audience,
Pam Burrows: and and made it just very, very real what we were talking about. You know,
Pam Burrows: we're we're all, you know I I love the phrase, we're all just walking each
Pam Burrows: other home, which is a roomy quote.
Pam Burrows: And, and it's that thing, you know, we're
Pam Burrows: connecting on a human level and that's, you know, when when we first
Pam Burrows: went online, there are a few of us saying, well, you don't have
Pam Burrows: to be sitting down just because you're on screen, You can set it up so
Pam Burrows: that you're standing up and you're due using all the energy that you I
Pam Burrows: was absolutely exhausted. Yes. I was using the energy
Pam Burrows: that I would normally use on stage, but normally when you're on stage, you've
Pam Burrows: also got a huge room with people that you're engaging and
Pam Burrows: you're calling out or they're asking question. You know, it it's
Pam Burrows: a it there's a cycle of energy. But sometimes,
Pam Burrows: especially when it was a webinar setup or flipping
Pam Burrows: Microsoft Teams where most people have their cameras off, which drives me crazy.
Pam Burrows: You're just looking into the lens. You're not you know? So so,
Pam Burrows: yes, I was coming across with more energy, but a 2 hour
Pam Burrows: session, and I'd have to lie down for 2 days afterwards. That's
Pam Burrows: absolutely crashing. So, I'll just,
Pam Burrows: I've not got one to hand, but I went from from that
Pam Burrows: to sitting down, absolutely fine. I can still be
Pam Burrows: very energized. And I had a flip chart with very low
Pam Burrows: legs sitting here. But then I realized, well, you
Pam Burrows: can still only see about an a 4 sized piece of the flip chart that
Pam Burrows: can actually use. So I started using a clipboard as my flip chart because if
Pam Burrows: it's near enough to the camera, it's the same size as the flip chart would
Pam Burrows: be if you were set up that way. So kept it really low tech,
Pam Burrows: and, managing my energy and making sure
Pam Burrows: that it's interactive enough that it feels more like a cycle. You
Pam Burrows: know, it's not just I'm giving you everything and then I'm, you know, empty.
Pam Burrows: It's about and and that's, you know, and that's something about speakers
Pam Burrows: thriving, teachers right now, teachers having to go online, so feel
Pam Burrows: for teachers. Well, all school staff right now having to
Pam Burrows: handle that. And and I just saw a conversation on Twitter this
Pam Burrows: morning. A teacher saying, she'd done something like
Pam Burrows: 40 hours live, and she said, I am broken.
Pam Burrows: And another teacher saying, you know, you have to give yourself permission to use
Pam Burrows: to do recordings, and you can while the kids are watching the
Pam Burrows: recording, you can be supporting the kids who are struggling, you know,
Pam Burrows: offline and and all of that. So we
Pam Burrows: have to we have to think about how are you using your
Pam Burrows: energy and how how does it become cyclical because,
Pam Burrows: the when when you're just giving, you
Pam Burrows: won't have anything left and people aren't as engaged in it either. So
Pam Burrows: yeah. Yeah. I I remember certainly going back a
Joanne Lockwood: little while, Steve Jobs, when he first when he first went back to Apple and
Joanne Lockwood: launched the iPhone, I remember seeing an interview or hearing
Joanne Lockwood: about his his kind of mantra for those presentations that he he only
Joanne Lockwood: ever did things in 10 minute segments. So if you're gonna have a speaker, they
Joanne Lockwood: speak for 10 minutes, then you go for something different like a product demo. Then
Joanne Lockwood: you go from a product demo to a video, then you go from a video
Joanne Lockwood: to a different presenter. So that there's always this 10 minute cycle.
Joanne Lockwood: And so when I deliver my online training, my coaching that I do,
Joanne Lockwood: is I again I try and bring video, I bring in interaction,
Joanne Lockwood: breakout rooms, so I never talk myself more than for
Joanne Lockwood: 5 or 10 minutes at a time, then interact, then show a video, then discuss
Joanne Lockwood: that, then chat about it. So there's always something going on that
Joanne Lockwood: is not just this talk and talk or you appear as a match box in
Joanne Lockwood: the corner of the window and everyone's listening to you drone on. So I think
Joanne Lockwood: we're all learning about engagement now, aren't we, and how we can a,
Joanne Lockwood: look after our own sense of self because I was finding it a killer talking
Joanne Lockwood: to this black mirror all the time and getting no feedback. So I said, I
Joanne Lockwood: don't want to do that anymore. I wanna be I wanna be in the audience
Joanne Lockwood: and I wanna be I wanna have the same kind of interactions I would if
Joanne Lockwood: I was in the room with you. This is about me asking you questions and
Joanne Lockwood: get you to do some of the talking as well. And it it people really
Joanne Lockwood: respond. That that's where that's where the learning happens, isn't it? Yeah. Absolutely.
Pam Burrows: Generally speaking, I do about an hour and a half, 2 hours for most
Pam Burrows: sessions, occasionally, 3 hours. And
Pam Burrows: and if you if you do that engagement stuff and
Pam Burrows: you are it's all the different things we've just talked about.
Pam Burrows: You're you're getting them engaged. You're talking about stuff that they connect to, and they're
Pam Burrows: like, oh god. Yeah. They get me.
Pam Burrows: And, and you've given them something of value. The time
Pam Burrows: flies by. You know? People sometimes say at the end, oh, I was
Pam Burrows: thinking, oh, god. 2 hours, 3 hours on Zoom. What's that gonna be like? And
Pam Burrows: then they get to the end, they go, oh, is it time to finish already?
Pam Burrows: Yeah. More. More. Sign. Yeah. Yeah. I want some
Joanne Lockwood: more. Kiko. Kiko. Yeah. I was Sorry,
Pam Burrows: Con. Jo you talk about your care model, and and when you talk about,
Joanne Lockwood: awareness, it reminded me of I saw something for it
Joanne Lockwood: must have come out for a year ago where someone talked about the CIA model,
Joanne Lockwood: which is if you can't, you know, c for control, if you can't control
Joanne Lockwood: something and you can't influence something, you either accept,
Joanne Lockwood: acknowledge or adapt, so the a.
Joanne Lockwood: And I kinda always refer that to myself, you know, I I can't
Joanne Lockwood: directly control what's going on in the world in terms of COVID, in terms of
Joanne Lockwood: the political, in terms of Brexit, whatever whatever the political thing is going on about,
Joanne Lockwood: I can't control that. I don't really have an influence. Yes, I can have an
Joanne Lockwood: opinion. I can shout about it. But fundamentally, if I if I get stuck
Joanne Lockwood: in trying to fight it, what I'm going to do is drag myself down. So
Joanne Lockwood: if I can move in to accept, I can move in to acknowledge, I can
Joanne Lockwood: move in to adapt, I could work myself, I could then take control of myself
Joanne Lockwood: and feel empowered that I I now have some responsibility
Joanne Lockwood: about how I can how to deal with this. Whereas I think I
Joanne Lockwood: was I get I was getting Jo stuck in I can't control. I was in
Joanne Lockwood: this sort of tailspin of I can't I can't do anything.
Joanne Lockwood: And you've got to back right out of that avenue and take control again by
Joanne Lockwood: adapting yourself or how you how you see that problem.
Pam Burrows: Absolutely right. And I I love the CIA thing. That's that's
Pam Burrows: lovely. And, and what I'd say about that
Pam Burrows: is that, some of the some of the time we get stuck in what we
Pam Burrows: can't control, you know, the stuff that's going off in America right now. There's
Pam Burrows: some very, very little we can do about that.
Pam Burrows: So we get stuck in that news loop of something we can't
Pam Burrows: control. So not only are we getting stressed about something we
Pam Burrows: can do nothing about, but we're not taking control of the things we can
Pam Burrows: do something about, which is, our breathing rate,
Pam Burrows: getting getting out there and moving the body or, you
Pam Burrows: know, clearing clearing your workspace so that you your your
Pam Burrows: brain feels a little clear, you know, the things you can do. And that's,
Pam Burrows: that's the, the double whammy is stop, stop getting stressed
Pam Burrows: about things you can't do anything about and do start doing something
Pam Burrows: about things you can do something about. And don't underestimate the little things.
Pam Burrows: There's there's something quite magical about
Pam Burrows: cleaning things. So whether you're sweeping or mopping
Pam Burrows: or, you know, wiping down the kitchen tops,
Pam Burrows: hand washing the pots instead of putting them in the dishwasher,
Pam Burrows: clean the windows. There's something about that repetitive arm
Pam Burrows: movement that is, it it just shifts the
Pam Burrows: shifts the mood, shifts our state. So,
Pam Burrows: yeah, so that's a good thing to do. When you don't know what else to
Pam Burrows: do, just go clean something.
Joanne Lockwood: Or cook or bake something or Yes. A lot of banana bread and
Pam Burrows: sourdough went on, wouldn't it, at the start of the 1st lockdown.
Pam Burrows: Yeah. Is that produce is that producing or being
Joanne Lockwood: useful, having sort of productive come out of it when you clean, you can actually
Joanne Lockwood: see the result. Yeah. You think, oh, that's a bit dusty. You just say, oh.
Joanne Lockwood: It's when you can't be bothered that means you're kind of in that depressed state.
Joanne Lockwood: But as soon as you notice it, oh, right, let me do that, you go
Joanne Lockwood: back you you this you sort of the brain chemicals, you've then
Joanne Lockwood: got satisfaction of achievement, haven't you? Yeah. You've rewarded yourself,
Joanne Lockwood: you're going, yay, I've done something. Yes, absolutely. I think that's
Joanne Lockwood: incredibly powerful. I I was looking on Facebook this morning and up popped
Joanne Lockwood: a picture that I took a year ago today of my
Joanne Lockwood: laptop and my remote speaking setup that I did a year ago. And I looked
Joanne Lockwood: and thought, wow, was that a year ago? It's a tiny little laptop, laptop, a
Joanne Lockwood: tiny little microphone, tiny little webcam on the corner of this
Joanne Lockwood: desk. I thought, how could I ever have coped with that?
Joanne Lockwood: And nowhere have I literally I I I finished reassembling my desk for
Joanne Lockwood: 2021 the other day, and I look at it now and it's like the back
Joanne Lockwood: shots takaalactica in front of me at the moment. So I've
Joanne Lockwood: got screens, I've got lights, I've got stuff going on. And I just look at
Joanne Lockwood: the 2 thinking, wow, in a year I've gone from that to that. But when
Joanne Lockwood: I was reassembling my desk over Christmas, I had it all stripped down, I
Joanne Lockwood: had it all in piles and bits everywhere and when I put it back together
Joanne Lockwood: and I sat down when it's finished yesterday, I went, wow.
Joanne Lockwood: I feel really, really good. I feel really empowered and I I'm really,
Joanne Lockwood: really excited by the whole thing. It's like a new release of life. I suppose
Joanne Lockwood: it's like getting a new car or or getting a new dress or something. It's
Joanne Lockwood: just you you got that feeling of of newness, haven't you, to
Joanne Lockwood: reinvigorate yourself. Yeah. And you just reminded me about
Pam Burrows: a friend of mine who, when her children were little, she never had
Pam Burrows: all their toys out available at all times. She would have
Pam Burrows: a proportion because most, most kids, if, if they're lucky,
Pam Burrows: have more toys than they know what to do with. So she'd keep some away,
Pam Burrows: and then she'd swap them around. And even though the kids had seen those toys
Pam Burrows: maybe 3 months, 6 months ago, they'd be like, this is like a new thing
Pam Burrows: because I haven't seen it for ages. And, and I imagine it was a bit
Pam Burrows: of a similar thing for you when, when you set everything up again.
Pam Burrows: But but also realizing that, that that
Pam Burrows: achievement, that movement that you've made over over 12 months and
Pam Burrows: realizing it. And one one of the things that, I like to do every now
Pam Burrows: and again, somebody said to me a few years ago, is look at your life
Pam Burrows: through the eyes of somebody you'd love to have what you've got, and you suddenly
Pam Burrows: go, link an act. Look look what I've got rather than what I haven't got
Pam Burrows: or what isn't perfect. You know? And,
Pam Burrows: and it's not about thinking, oh god, I'm, you know, recognizing
Pam Burrows: your privilege and feeling bad about it. It's just about celebrating it
Pam Burrows: and enjoying it because, you know, feeling guilty about having more
Pam Burrows: than somebody else might have is no use either. And so
Joanne Lockwood: so Shame and guilt aren't great emotions. It's how you can leverage it
Joanne Lockwood: and inspire others and, and give. Yeah. That
Joanne Lockwood: that's that's the power of privilege is where you can use it for the benefit
Joanne Lockwood: of society. And, yeah, I'm a great believer in that.
Joanne Lockwood: So so we're we're we're in this second lockdown. The world
Joanne Lockwood: is is struggling with
Joanne Lockwood: the vaccine isn't gonna come quick enough. We've all had our our
Joanne Lockwood: Christmas hopes dashed. We were all expected to be flying off to our holiday
Joanne Lockwood: homes by now. And, yeah, we're in the UK, so now we're
Joanne Lockwood: thinking, well, Easter, April 5th is a date that's been banned around
Joanne Lockwood: middle of March. And I saw something yesterday, that even talking
Joanne Lockwood: about another potential COVID spike next winter. So
Joanne Lockwood: it's not going to be over this year. So we've we've maybe even
Joanne Lockwood: got another 12 to 18 months of this. So do you think people
Joanne Lockwood: are coping better? Do you think, I mean, the schools are now
Joanne Lockwood: closed? We've got we we know that disproportionately
Joanne Lockwood: women who tend to be the primary parent when it comes to educating,
Joanne Lockwood: home education still even in a gender equal relationship,
Joanne Lockwood: there there's still a lot more pressure on women to provide the home ed,
Joanne Lockwood: provide the home admin and the cooking and etcetera, even the most even
Joanne Lockwood: the most progressive households. So do you think we're gonna
Joanne Lockwood: see a backward step in terms of, female
Joanne Lockwood: empowerment and and female growth in the workplace? Do you think
Joanne Lockwood: we'd have to reset? And and are these anxieties that
Joanne Lockwood: people are facing at the moment? I think the the the picture you
Pam Burrows: describe is very accurate. Certainly anecdotally,
Pam Burrows: you know, the women that I know who are in very high powered jobs working
Pam Burrows: full time are also now homeschooling their children.
Pam Burrows: And, some getting support from their partner, some not,
Pam Burrows: some single parents, obviously. So I think it's a huge
Pam Burrows: issue. I think it's something which workplaces need
Pam Burrows: to address, but they need to,
Pam Burrows: just just from this last week, I think workplaces need
Pam Burrows: to be more proactive about addressing
Pam Burrows: that in terms of saying to everybody, not just
Pam Burrows: women, but particularly, you do not have to try and
Pam Burrows: operate at the normal 100% level. Please do
Pam Burrows: not do that. We're not just saying it's okay if you don't. We're saying please
Pam Burrows: don't even try. I I do,
Pam Burrows: quite regular work with the Crown Prosecution Service, and they have
Pam Burrows: got such a massive backlog. And the people that I was talking
Pam Burrows: to, who are working at home,
Pam Burrows: still putting the same pressure on themselves to,
Pam Burrows: try and, clear the backlog of work that they have for the
Pam Burrows: courts, whilst also some of them being
Pam Burrows: isolated with no support, some of them trying to homeschool
Pam Burrows: kids or support elderly relatives or whatever, just all
Pam Burrows: of that stuff. And actually trying to do more than they
Pam Burrows: normally would because of the backlog that they're experiencing.
Pam Burrows: And we need the people who are leaders
Pam Burrows: to say you are not allowed to try and operate at
Pam Burrows: that same level because people will just burn out. You know? And so so they'll
Pam Burrows: do things like, oh, I I put on a load of
Pam Burrows: washing earlier during work time. Jo I
Pam Burrows: better work
Pam Burrows: And when you think about it, if you were in the workplace, you'd have a
Pam Burrows: natter with your friends. You'd, you know, meander over a cup of coffee
Pam Burrows: or you might nip out to get something for lunch. There'd be times of the
Pam Burrows: day where you weren't fully operational because that's the nature. It
Pam Burrows: has to ebb and flow. You can't be full on all the time and expect
Pam Burrows: yourself to operate at the same level. You know, you kinda
Pam Burrows: skip lunch, work through. You're exhausted in the afternoon. You're not thinking
Pam Burrows: straight. You might make mistakes. You're, you know, you're not operating
Pam Burrows: well. There's such a blurring between work and home.
Pam Burrows: So I think we need to be more careful with that
Pam Burrows: ourselves. It goes back to what we're saying at the beginning. We need individually
Pam Burrows: to have our little toolkit, but leaders and organizations
Pam Burrows: need to be aware of, you know, what what
Pam Burrows: else people are experiencing and the the burden
Pam Burrows: that may be disproportionate to to certain people.
Joanne Lockwood: Do you think people are are kind of feeling worried or vulnerable about their their
Joanne Lockwood: jobs? Yeah. When you've got, you know, we go back at
Joanne Lockwood: 18 months. It there was a we talked about the skills crisis. The
Joanne Lockwood: the there was more people employed. There was it
Joanne Lockwood: was there was a basically there was talent
Joanne Lockwood: was in demand. Now we've got talent oversupply and
Joanne Lockwood: a 1,000 people applying for every role whereas in the past people have to be
Joanne Lockwood: really careful. So do you think people are kind of hyper aware that
Joanne Lockwood: they're not indispensable anymore, are they creating this self pressure because they're feeling
Joanne Lockwood: that, hang on a minute, if I don't if I'm not top of my game
Joanne Lockwood: every 5 seconds, they'll they'll they'll make redundant, they'll furlough me,
Joanne Lockwood: they'll push me out, they can't see me, they can't see what I'm doing anymore.
Pam Burrows: Of those, companies completely folding and
Pam Burrows: everybody losing their jobs. And, yeah,
Pam Burrows: and I think that is one of the things that can can lead to
Pam Burrows: overwhelm and burnout and illness because people are thinking, well,
Pam Burrows: I can't slack enough because, you know, I'll
Pam Burrows: be I'll be first out of the door. The trouble is with
Pam Burrows: adrenaline, which is what happens when we start to get stressed about all of
Pam Burrows: this stuff, is it's addictive. Doing mode,
Pam Burrows: fixing. There must be
Pam Burrows: something else I should be doing. You almost doing mode,
Pam Burrows: fixing. There must be something else I should be doing. You almost feel guilty when
Pam Burrows: you stop. And I think of it being like a hamster wheel that keeps spinning
Pam Burrows: even though the the day's finished. You know? So so it's good
Pam Burrows: to have some, some habits
Pam Burrows: in the morning to set you up for the day and at the end of
Pam Burrows: the day to switch off in order that that doesn't become a hamster
Pam Burrows: wheel that that actually is on all the time. Because it it
Pam Burrows: it actually is a a self fulfilling prophecy. You
Pam Burrows: think, oh, there's a risk of being made redundant, therefore, I'll do x,
Pam Burrows: y, zed. But actually, you're more likely to, to
Pam Burrows: not be able to work. If you if you don't ease up on that pressure,
Pam Burrows: you know, it's actually gonna happen, in another way perhaps through being
Pam Burrows: ill and not being able to work. So, you know, people are
Pam Burrows: even using their commuting time. You know, let's say
Pam Burrows: you used to leave the house at 7 and start work at 8,
Pam Burrows: say. They're starting work at 7. So you'd have been
Pam Burrows: commuting in that time. So don't think that using that
Pam Burrows: extra hour means you will be able to fulfill that to do
Pam Burrows: list. 1 one of the, like, going back to the care model, the
Pam Burrows: r of the care model is for reality. So you
Pam Burrows: might have 10 things on your list that need doing, but only in
Pam Burrows: reality, only 5 of them are possible in that one day. It's only
Pam Burrows: humanly possible to do 5 in that one day.
Pam Burrows: So, you know, look at what's what's humanly
Pam Burrows: possible and then celebrate that at the end of the day. Because if you've got
Pam Burrows: 10 things on your list and you get to the end of the day, you've
Pam Burrows: only done 5, you're gonna feel downhearted. You're gonna beat yourself up. You're gonna
Pam Burrows: set off those stress chemicals. You set yourself 5 and manage
Pam Burrows: 5. Yay. Well done me. And I'll do the the other 5
Pam Burrows: tomorrow. So, yeah, it's about it's about how
Pam Burrows: you, you probably are
Pam Burrows: actually a superhero that can do you keep pushing
Pam Burrows: and keep pushing and running on an empty tank. Yeah. You can, but only
Pam Burrows: for a certain amount of time, and then you've got to you've got to
Pam Burrows: refuel. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And I'm a great believer in the in the, the quadrant urgent
Joanne Lockwood: important, not urgent, not important. And just focus on
Joanne Lockwood: the urgent and important. If it's not urgent, not important, just just throw it in
Joanne Lockwood: the bin. Just don't do it. And or delegate if it's if it's if it's
Joanne Lockwood: not, yeah, not important, but it's urgent. But get somebody else to do it for
Joanne Lockwood: you. I think the trick really focus on that top quadrant. Yeah. The trick is
Pam Burrows: not looking at your list and going, but everything's urgent and important. You know,
Pam Burrows: when you're stressed, it's like, well, I have to do that because if I don't
Pam Burrows: do that, x will happen and kind of catastrophizing about what will happen
Pam Burrows: if you don't do every single thing. So, yeah, having a proper
Pam Burrows: think about, right, that feels urgent, but
Pam Burrows: that's somebody else's urgent, you know, so maybe you could pass it
Pam Burrows: back to them and say, I can't do this right now because I need to
Pam Burrows: do this. And, but you need to, you need to
Pam Burrows: have a reasonably clear mind,
Pam Burrows: and, you know, kind of feeling a in a relaxed enough
Pam Burrows: way to to think clearly about those things, to make those decisions.
Pam Burrows: Otherwise, we're just constantly firefighting and don't take the
Pam Burrows: time to just take a
Pam Burrows: breath and go, hang on a minute. Is is that does that really
Pam Burrows: Emails are a great example. An email pops in because you've seen it
Pam Burrows: pop in, because it needs action and you think, right, I've gotta do that now.
Pam Burrows: Really? Does it really need to be done now, or can you
Pam Burrows: just take a breath and decide when you are gonna do that rather than zipping
Pam Burrows: in between things and constantly being busy?
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I I had a double pneumonia,
Joanne Lockwood: 7 8 years ago. And I was in I ran
Joanne Lockwood: my own business. I had some Jo directors and partners. I had hundreds of clients
Joanne Lockwood: with IT services, so it's all stress or or everyone's getting really tense about the
Joanne Lockwood: whole thing. And I had double pneumonia, and I I couldn't I
Joanne Lockwood: was I was in hospital, not quite intensive care, but I was in I was
Joanne Lockwood: in a hospital ward for a week. And then I I could hardly
Joanne Lockwood: breathe or I can hardly walk for about 3 or 4 weeks afterwards.
Joanne Lockwood: And I I suddenly realized at that point that the world still move the
Joanne Lockwood: world still turns, nobody's eyes, you know, you just those things you were worrying
Joanne Lockwood: about just happened in a different way without me having
Joanne Lockwood: to be involved. So now when I'm looking at my list and the things I
Joanne Lockwood: have to do, I look at it and that's alternative. If I wasn't here tomorrow,
Joanne Lockwood: what would happen? So I then start putting preemptive measures in place and
Joanne Lockwood: saying, well, if I if I couldn't deliver that, what would I do instead? So
Joanne Lockwood: I've got a I've got a PA who will handle stuff for me,
Joanne Lockwood: I can make one I can send one text message Joanne and she will make
Joanne Lockwood: things happen and go away or reschedule or something, so I know that I
Joanne Lockwood: don't have that stress anymore. So I I know that I can go on my
Joanne Lockwood: life without worrying about tomorrow. There's always a plan. So I think that's the
Joanne Lockwood: technique people need to do is if I if I'm if I'm not playing
Joanne Lockwood: tomorrow, what would I do? And then it's put in that plan in
Joanne Lockwood: place. It always got its rolling plan. And that immediately just takes the stress away
Joanne Lockwood: because you think you're you're not letting people down because you've got a plan
Joanne Lockwood: a. That happens. That kicks in immediately. Joe's not around tomorrow.
Joanne Lockwood: This is what we're gonna do instead. Brilliant. And then then
Joanne Lockwood: you can focus on things in a better way and and truly work out what's
Joanne Lockwood: urgent. And today, urgent was breathing, urgent was staying
Joanne Lockwood: alive, urgent was was was talked to my family, urgent
Joanne Lockwood: wasn't worrying about someone's backup or someone's system crashing. I had somebody else
Joanne Lockwood: to worry about that. Yeah. Absolutely. We we sometimes this is
Pam Burrows: one of the red flags that I talk about in the book is, one of
Pam Burrows: them is thinking you're invincible, you know, and,
Pam Burrows: irreplaceable. When I when I used to, I used
Pam Burrows: to do a lot of time management courses years ago, and and I used to
Pam Burrows: talk about the double decker bus rating, which is a bit morbid. So if you
Pam Burrows: got I was gonna say the red I was gonna I talk about the red
Joanne Lockwood: bus as well, so I'm not going for it. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. So, yeah,
Pam Burrows: if you got hit by a bus tomorrow, what what would not
Pam Burrows: happen as a result? And, yeah. So
Pam Burrows: not having everything on your shoulders. Now for a lot of people, and you were
Pam Burrows: talking earlier about women having the kind of emotional load, the admin
Pam Burrows: load, the physical loads, the homeschooling, all of that,
Pam Burrows: you know, sometimes there isn't, there aren't things
Pam Burrows: that you can pass on to to other people. So it's really
Pam Burrows: important to to recognize that there's, there's only so
Pam Burrows: much of you to go around. What are, what are your kind of,
Pam Burrows: contingency plans? And if you really can't pass
Pam Burrows: anything on or knock it off your list entirely, then at
Pam Burrows: least you need to say, well, if that's what's going out, what's coming in?
Pam Burrows: How do I get what I need to be able to You have to be
Joanne Lockwood: able to sort of say is this more or less so you've got a list.
Joanne Lockwood: You say is this more or is this less? If it's less, put it at
Joanne Lockwood: the bottom, if it's more, put it at the top and just shuffle things down.
Joanne Lockwood: So you've got 8 hours. You've got you just you always have a window that
Joanne Lockwood: says that that's 8 hours worth of tasks and anything at the bottom of that
Joanne Lockwood: just gets cut off and it happens tomorrow or not. And not trying to
Joanne Lockwood: say well I've got 10 hours of things to do in 8 hours, it's saying
Joanne Lockwood: I've got 8 hours, That's all I can do. And it's being realistic about that.
Joanne Lockwood: I I think that's what people try and do. They try and slot extra stuff
Joanne Lockwood: in without thinking about where does it fit in the list and The the thing
Pam Burrows: that I talk to people about with the our part of the care model
Pam Burrows: is the difference between intention and reality. So the
Pam Burrows: reality is you've got 8 hours. Your intention is to say yes to everybody
Pam Burrows: and always be helpful and try and get things done and and
Pam Burrows: done, done, done, done. And the difference, between
Pam Burrows: intention and reality is just taking a breath when
Pam Burrows: a request comes in or, you're tempted
Pam Burrows: to, offer to help before somebody's even asked
Pam Burrows: you, is to just take a breath in that moment to go, okay. What's reality?
Pam Burrows: My intention is to be a good and helpful person.
Pam Burrows: Okay. Let's just acknowledge that. That's true. No matter what, that's true.
Pam Burrows: And in this situation, I can't help because in reality, I haven't got
Pam Burrows: the time, the resources, the patience, the energy, whatever
Pam Burrows: it might take to to do that. And and just, yeah, looking at the
Pam Burrows: difference between intention and reality, it's really crucial.
Joanne Lockwood: That's that's that's a great way of looking at it. It is. Yeah. I I
Joanne Lockwood: I completely understand that. And the reality is that you may be you aren't the
Joanne Lockwood: best person to deal with it because of all the other things you've got on
Joanne Lockwood: your list. Actually, I'd love to help, but I'm not I'm not best
Joanne Lockwood: placed. I wouldn't be able to do a good job for you. Yeah. Is is
Joanne Lockwood: a good way of responding. Well, that person needs to try and find
Pam Burrows: something themselves. You know, sometimes we support people too much and actually
Pam Burrows: they need to figure out how to do that for themselves. You know, it's like
Pam Burrows: if you're if you're late leaving the house and your 3 year old can't do
Pam Burrows: their shoes up, you might do it for them. But if they're 18 and you're
Pam Burrows: still doing that, that's a bit of a problem. They haven't learned how to do
Pam Burrows: their own shoes. So with people sometimes it's, tough
Pam Burrows: love, you know, that we need to say, I can't help you with that.
Pam Burrows: It's it's time for you to find a way to to figure that out for
Pam Burrows: yourself. Or as you say, you know, somebody else could help or I can't help
Pam Burrows: now, but I could help you at another point in time.
Pam Burrows: But not feeling like you've got to be an absolute martyr
Pam Burrows: and say yes to everything. And because you are going to keel over
Pam Burrows: at some point, and then those things won't get done at all. You know, you've
Pam Burrows: got to take a break before it breaks you.
Joanne Lockwood: And on that note, how can people get in touch with you? Because we talked
Joanne Lockwood: about your your star model, your care. I'm sure that
Joanne Lockwood: plenty of people listen to this podcast who'd love to get in touch and love
Joanne Lockwood: to find out how you Joanne help their organization. So what's the best way of
Joanne Lockwood: getting in contact with you? So easiest way is email me, pam@pamborrows.com.
Pam Burrows: I'm in the process of having a new website, so you can go to pamborrows.com
Pam Burrows: if you want to, but it's going to be much better very soon. It's not
Pam Burrows: really got everything on there that that I'm currently doing. So email
Pam Burrows: and and have a chat is the best thing. The other thing you can do
Pam Burrows: is find me on YouTube, Pamburo's people booster, because
Pam Burrows: I've got loads of stuff on YouTube that you can just do for free.
Pam Burrows: Particularly, there's a playlist of switch off techniques so that you
Pam Burrows: can properly unwind off the hunt hamster wheel at the end of the day
Pam Burrows: and get a good night's sleep. And if, if you do go to
Pam Burrows: the website, at the bottom of every page of the website, there's a
Pam Burrows: sign up for my Monday motivation message. And there
Pam Burrows: you'll find out about, the spas,
Pam Burrows: free unpaid spas that I'm doing and just all the
Pam Burrows: other things that I can do for your team or individuals.
Joanne Lockwood: So. Fantastic. I'm sure we could have carried on talking for another hour or Jo.
Joanne Lockwood: We had so much to cover there. Well, a huge thank you to the
Joanne Lockwood: listeners, for tuning in and getting to this far and and the podcast.
Joanne Lockwood: If you love what you've heard, please do subscribe to keep updated on future episodes
Joanne Lockwood: of the Inclusion Bites podcast that's B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends,
Joanne Lockwood: if you have any, tell your colleagues. I mean, you may well be a polar
Joanne Lockwood: bear wondering when you're engaged, but do do share the love and the inspiration.
Joanne Lockwood: Because I've got a number of other exciting guests, even more exciting.
Joanne Lockwood: I don't know. It's it's gonna be tough to tough to compete with Pam today.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm sure you'll be inspired anyway over the next few weeks or months. So
Joanne Lockwood: and also maybe you would love to inspire us. If you'd like to be a
Joanne Lockwood: guest, let me know. And if you've got any comments, feedback, suggestions, of course,
Joanne Lockwood: I'd love to hear them. So do email me to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk
Joanne Lockwood: So what remains for me to say is my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been
Joanne Lockwood: an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time.
Joanne Lockwood: Bye.