WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.719 --> 00:00:04.400 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host for 2 00:00:04.400 --> 00:00:07.895 the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, have been 3 00:00:07.895 --> 00:00:11.335 interviewing a number of amazing people as simply having a 4 00:00:11.335 --> 00:00:15.150 conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging, I'm generally 5 00:00:15.150 --> 00:00:18.990 making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like 6 00:00:18.990 --> 00:00:22.510 to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to 7 00:00:22.510 --> 00:00:25.105 joe.lockwood Lockwood c changehappen.co.uk. 8 00:00:26.525 --> 00:00:28.465 That's sw changehappen.co.uk. 9 00:00:30.365 --> 00:00:33.825 You can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify, 10 00:00:34.190 --> 00:00:37.649 and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, 11 00:00:38.269 --> 00:00:41.010 grab a decaf, and let's get going. 12 00:00:42.045 --> 00:00:45.265 Today is episode 30 with the title. 13 00:00:45.885 --> 00:00:49.185 Personal is political and how silence speaks. 14 00:00:50.360 --> 00:00:54.200 I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by professor, Laura 15 00:00:54.200 --> 00:00:57.960 So an OBE. Laura describes herself as 16 00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:01.145 a black woman, nurse, academic and queen. 17 00:01:01.845 --> 00:01:05.605 When I asked Laura to describe her superpower, she said, it 18 00:01:05.605 --> 00:01:09.260 is my story of self embracing silences and silos 19 00:01:09.960 --> 00:01:13.720 about inclusion. Hello, Laura. Welcome to the 20 00:01:13.720 --> 00:01:16.945 show. Hello, Gerard. That was a wonderful introduction. 21 00:01:17.725 --> 00:01:21.085 And, yeah, it's been a while. We've been waiting to speak, so I'm really looking 22 00:01:21.085 --> 00:01:24.784 forward to it. I've got my decaf, so, I'm ready to go. 23 00:01:25.450 --> 00:01:29.050 Brilliant. Wow. Yes. We have we've planned this 24 00:01:29.050 --> 00:01:30.270 months ago, didn't we? 25 00:01:33.155 --> 00:01:36.755 Tell me about personalist political and how silent 26 00:01:36.755 --> 00:01:40.510 speaks. What does that mean to you? Wellbeing I 27 00:01:40.510 --> 00:01:44.030 don't know if you've heard the phrase person as political before. It comes 28 00:01:44.030 --> 00:01:47.410 from, a really well known book, the women's room. 29 00:01:47.885 --> 00:01:51.564 Now I read that book when I was 7, believe it or not, for the 30 00:01:51.564 --> 00:01:55.405 first time, and I kind of remember stopping at that phrase and 31 00:01:55.405 --> 00:01:59.210 thinking, what does that mean? And I didn't really understand it. 32 00:02:00.310 --> 00:02:04.090 And I reread the book when I was seventeen. So 10 years later, 33 00:02:04.625 --> 00:02:07.925 and those words just kind of pow, kind of hit me. 34 00:02:08.305 --> 00:02:11.905 And what I realized was that what it 35 00:02:11.905 --> 00:02:15.560 really meant was that the things that happened to me, 36 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:19.000 which up to that point, I just thought, oh, well, that's happened to you, Laurel. 37 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:22.540 That might happen to one you know, but it's just a thing that's happened. 38 00:02:23.005 --> 00:02:25.585 I've realized that those experiences, particularly 39 00:02:26.525 --> 00:02:30.045 around inclusion or around feeling left out or 40 00:02:30.045 --> 00:02:32.940 around not being given an equal chance 41 00:02:33.720 --> 00:02:36.940 were actually what politics was about. 42 00:02:37.640 --> 00:02:40.825 And I know people think about politics in terms of, you know, which party do 43 00:02:40.825 --> 00:02:43.724 you vote for, etcetera, etcetera. But for me, 44 00:02:44.185 --> 00:02:47.819 politics in a in a kind of social sense is 45 00:02:47.819 --> 00:02:51.420 about distribution of resources, who gets what, who 46 00:02:51.420 --> 00:02:55.185 counts, whose experience is promoted, and whose 47 00:02:55.185 --> 00:02:58.945 experience is kind of maybe even vilified. So the 48 00:02:58.945 --> 00:03:02.570 politics of living and the politics Wellbeing 49 00:03:02.550 --> 00:03:06.310 with diff ourselves is really what counts. 50 00:03:06.310 --> 00:03:09.770 So the my personal experiences, our personal experiences, 51 00:03:10.965 --> 00:03:14.725 are the political point. So the personal is 52 00:03:14.725 --> 00:03:18.485 political. That's what counts. So in my experience, yours, 53 00:03:18.485 --> 00:03:22.180 and what happens to me is not just me. It is really a 54 00:03:22.180 --> 00:03:25.560 reflection of our world, I suppose, and and where we live. 55 00:03:27.465 --> 00:03:30.845 Well, yeah, I just, as you're speaking, I'm just reflecting on this. 56 00:03:31.864 --> 00:03:35.644 Storytelling is so powerful, isn't it? They are listening to people's 57 00:03:36.630 --> 00:03:40.470 lived experience. It creates that empathy bridge. It 58 00:03:40.470 --> 00:03:44.230 allows us to what's I can never understand what it's like to be you. What 59 00:03:44.230 --> 00:03:47.915 I can do is take your your story and try and relate it into 60 00:03:47.915 --> 00:03:51.755 language that I can understand. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, 61 00:03:51.755 --> 00:03:55.300 I I say to me that is my superpower, as you 62 00:03:55.300 --> 00:03:59.060 mentioned, at the beginning, and it's all our superpowers, is 63 00:03:59.060 --> 00:04:02.040 that we are the we are 100% 64 00:04:02.985 --> 00:04:06.745 the experts on our own life. We don't need to, you know, we don't 65 00:04:06.745 --> 00:04:10.285 need other people. Other people can comment. They may influence. 66 00:04:10.584 --> 00:04:14.270 They may affect. But we are the expert because even 67 00:04:14.270 --> 00:04:17.630 when we all experience the same thing, we're all in the same 68 00:04:17.630 --> 00:04:21.255 situation. We all see and feel something 69 00:04:21.255 --> 00:04:25.095 different. And so that story, my 70 00:04:25.095 --> 00:04:28.819 story, the story within me is not only my 71 00:04:28.819 --> 00:04:32.439 superpower, but it's knowledge that only I have, 72 00:04:33.379 --> 00:04:36.439 and it's really, really important, I think, to hear 73 00:04:36.895 --> 00:04:40.735 stories of each other to share stories. It's it's how it's what makes us 74 00:04:40.735 --> 00:04:44.495 human, isn't it? It's how we learn. It's how we become the people 75 00:04:44.495 --> 00:04:48.240 we are through stories. I love 76 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:52.080 that. We are our own expert. I love that. It's a great, great, great sound 77 00:04:52.080 --> 00:04:55.705 bite. And they're so true because when I some of the 78 00:04:55.705 --> 00:04:59.465 training I do. I talk about the equation, e plus r 79 00:04:59.465 --> 00:05:02.925 equals o. So e as an event, something occurs. 80 00:05:03.790 --> 00:05:07.550 Yes. The r is our reaction to that event, and that 81 00:05:07.550 --> 00:05:11.165 leads to an outcome. But what we often get is the plus is 82 00:05:11.165 --> 00:05:13.665 our perspective, our lived experience, 83 00:05:14.845 --> 00:05:18.525 ourselves bringing into our our narrative or 84 00:05:18.525 --> 00:05:22.360 our view of that event which -- Yeah. -- so different people see the 85 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:25.800 same event. These are different reaction and therefore a different 86 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:29.335 outcome. And we often forget to understand 87 00:05:29.335 --> 00:05:32.775 someone's lived experience as to why they think react or perceive 88 00:05:32.775 --> 00:05:36.550 differently because we're so focused on the outcome, not how we get there. 89 00:05:36.710 --> 00:05:40.389 Yes. That's why the stories are so important, isn't it? Absolutely. I mean, we 90 00:05:40.389 --> 00:05:43.990 see it every day. I mean, when we watch the news, you know, when they 91 00:05:43.990 --> 00:05:47.835 have eyewitness reports, The eyewitness reports are always slightly 92 00:05:47.835 --> 00:05:51.595 different, which kinda makes you think, oh, how can that be? Because if 93 00:05:51.595 --> 00:05:55.310 everybody saw the same thing at the same time, How 94 00:05:55.310 --> 00:05:58.990 can the stories be slightly different? But, of 95 00:05:58.990 --> 00:06:02.130 course, what just as you've said, what we forget is that 96 00:06:03.305 --> 00:06:06.605 what you see depends on who's looking. 97 00:06:09.305 --> 00:06:12.919 Where you're standing? And where you're standing relative to that. Well, you have 98 00:06:12.919 --> 00:06:16.680 stood in the past. Yeah. Your history. Exactly. Your socialization. You're 99 00:06:16.680 --> 00:06:20.525 upbringing. Your what's what makes you happy, what makes 100 00:06:20.525 --> 00:06:23.884 you sad is a is a good influence on on your reaction as well as 101 00:06:23.884 --> 00:06:27.530 not. Yeah. I mean, it's almost you know, the 102 00:06:27.530 --> 00:06:29.790 the wonder of the mind is is fabulous, 103 00:06:30.970 --> 00:06:34.810 and it's almost instantaneous that whatever we, as 104 00:06:34.810 --> 00:06:38.545 we speak, it's filtered, even without us knowing it's filtered 105 00:06:39.005 --> 00:06:42.145 through our experience. It's filtered through our expectation. 106 00:06:42.979 --> 00:06:46.440 And it's filtered through how it feels to be in that 107 00:06:46.660 --> 00:06:50.040 moment. So it's already 108 00:06:50.100 --> 00:06:53.425 our interpretation of events is already 109 00:06:53.485 --> 00:06:55.905 immediately interpreted by ourselves. 110 00:06:57.565 --> 00:07:01.389 And this is where we phase into unconscious bias it 111 00:07:01.389 --> 00:07:04.830 plays into that whole set 112 00:07:04.830 --> 00:07:08.325 perspective is also a type of bias, isn't it? Because we it's our 113 00:07:08.405 --> 00:07:11.765 fast brain, we discuss straight into memory, fill in 114 00:07:11.765 --> 00:07:15.285 gaps, make assumptions, etcetera, 115 00:07:15.285 --> 00:07:18.919 etcetera. And this all comes from our perspective, our lived experience. Isn't 116 00:07:18.919 --> 00:07:22.520 it? It does. It comes from our lived experience, but 117 00:07:22.520 --> 00:07:26.164 also I think as as we are social beings, 118 00:07:26.785 --> 00:07:30.085 our lived experiences also affected by the people around us. 119 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:34.440 And their reaction as well. So almost immediately, we're using our 120 00:07:34.440 --> 00:07:37.795 own experience, but we're we're also checking it out 121 00:07:38.035 --> 00:07:41.635 around. I mean, I don't know if if you've ever been in in a 122 00:07:41.635 --> 00:07:45.315 situation where an accident has happened, and I don't mean there's something 123 00:07:45.315 --> 00:07:48.850 catastrophic. It can be something even as a small child, it it could be 124 00:07:48.850 --> 00:07:52.210 something that's easier as, you know, something getting knocked over, you know, or 125 00:07:52.210 --> 00:07:55.875 broken. Almost immediately where we've got the shock 126 00:07:55.875 --> 00:07:58.435 of looking at it. And then we look at each other. We're looking to see 127 00:07:58.435 --> 00:08:01.975 how other people are reacting. So we we look for that 128 00:08:02.035 --> 00:08:05.750 kind of community of reaction as well, which 129 00:08:05.750 --> 00:08:09.190 which is really important. Kind of that group think 130 00:08:09.190 --> 00:08:11.965 sometimes that if you're not careful, isn't it? Yes. It's 131 00:08:13.645 --> 00:08:16.445 I mean, I I offer the only other thing I I'm very conscious of is 132 00:08:16.445 --> 00:08:19.960 when we live in our in our tribe, our group, our 133 00:08:19.960 --> 00:08:23.580 socialized circle, our echo chamber. Yes. 134 00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:27.944 We have this in intent need to belong to this group. We 135 00:08:27.944 --> 00:08:31.405 wanna feel part of something. And often our views 136 00:08:31.785 --> 00:08:35.500 are merged into the groups. Yes. So we find it very 137 00:08:35.500 --> 00:08:39.340 difficult to have our own individualistic opinion for fear 138 00:08:39.340 --> 00:08:42.904 of shunning or ostracization from the group. You know, I'm I 139 00:08:42.904 --> 00:08:46.425 often talk about if you're a man in IT supporter and a 140 00:08:46.425 --> 00:08:49.865 lovable supporter, you have you almost implied that you have to have a 141 00:08:49.865 --> 00:08:53.700 rivalry And then you can't almost you can't, you know, allow to 142 00:08:53.700 --> 00:08:56.760 acknowledge something great about the opposition. 143 00:08:58.155 --> 00:09:01.835 Despite the fact that you may want to, but because your group, your tribe, 144 00:09:01.835 --> 00:09:05.570 unleashes you back into this conformity box, or you'll be 145 00:09:05.570 --> 00:09:08.930 kicked out and and into the world on this. And I think we could be 146 00:09:08.930 --> 00:09:12.690 very careful sometimes that are what we use for safety in our groups and 147 00:09:12.690 --> 00:09:16.515 our our our our family units or wherever that may be could often 148 00:09:16.815 --> 00:09:20.654 reinforce biases or perspectives that maybe we're 149 00:09:20.654 --> 00:09:22.834 not, we're a bit worried about breaking out of. 150 00:09:24.790 --> 00:09:28.250 Yeah. Because I think part of it is that there's an issue of personal 151 00:09:28.390 --> 00:09:31.750 safety that people feel, and that comes along with feeling 152 00:09:31.750 --> 00:09:35.585 accepted. So I think often when we're in a group situation, and we certainly 153 00:09:35.585 --> 00:09:38.545 see this, don't we work? We see it with with groups of people of all 154 00:09:38.545 --> 00:09:42.370 different ages that we we're we're kind of trying to 155 00:09:42.370 --> 00:09:44.870 check out, am I accepted 156 00:09:45.890 --> 00:09:49.330 immediately? And if not, what do I need to 157 00:09:49.330 --> 00:09:53.075 do? To make myself accepted or what 158 00:09:53.075 --> 00:09:56.915 needs to happen in order for me to be accepted. And that's part of 159 00:09:56.915 --> 00:10:00.550 the kind of, I suppose, unconscious way in which 160 00:10:00.550 --> 00:10:03.990 we we we measure our position within a 161 00:10:03.990 --> 00:10:07.509 group. We we're kind of trying to we're trying to position ourselves. We're 162 00:10:07.509 --> 00:10:11.115 trying to locate ourselves in a particular situation. 163 00:10:11.735 --> 00:10:15.035 And that happens, you know, at home as well as at work. 164 00:10:15.495 --> 00:10:19.200 We look for clues that that will help us to see 165 00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:23.040 whether we are accepted or will be accepted within 166 00:10:23.040 --> 00:10:26.824 this group. And that's 167 00:10:26.824 --> 00:10:29.565 where the belongingness, the inclusion, 168 00:10:30.665 --> 00:10:33.920 bringing your whole self to the group, if you like, so that you know what 169 00:10:33.920 --> 00:10:37.680 you can bring, what you can't bring, what opinions are good opinions, what's outer 170 00:10:37.680 --> 00:10:41.195 kilter of the group. Yes. So all that social dynamic occurs, isn't 171 00:10:41.435 --> 00:10:45.195 Yes. It does. And and, you know, I think that I don't know about 172 00:10:45.195 --> 00:10:48.875 you, but certainly in my experience as as a as a black woman sometimes in 173 00:10:48.875 --> 00:10:52.470 those groups is that something may not necessarily 174 00:10:52.690 --> 00:10:56.130 strike me, around race and ethnicity, let's say, 175 00:10:56.130 --> 00:10:59.885 particularly about our conversation. But because I'm aware 176 00:10:59.885 --> 00:11:03.345 of my position, I do feel a sense of responsibility 177 00:11:03.645 --> 00:11:07.390 to raise that issue. It may not be my issue personally, but I 178 00:11:07.390 --> 00:11:10.670 feel that if I'm not in the group who if I'm the only one in 179 00:11:10.670 --> 00:11:13.730 the group, who else is going to raise that 180 00:11:14.404 --> 00:11:17.305 that point or give that different opinion. 181 00:11:18.564 --> 00:11:22.264 And I don't know, as I say, sometimes it's quite difficult because people can 182 00:11:22.350 --> 00:11:26.190 often assume that because I raise something, it's my issue personally, and 183 00:11:26.190 --> 00:11:29.630 it isn't necessarily my issue personally, but it is an 184 00:11:29.630 --> 00:11:33.385 issue that may affect my tribe or my group? 185 00:11:36.644 --> 00:11:40.310 Oh, I I had this kind of debate yesterday on Facebook as it happened. 186 00:11:41.410 --> 00:11:45.250 And I was trying to get across the difference between something that 187 00:11:45.250 --> 00:11:48.785 is offensive and that I wasn't 188 00:11:48.785 --> 00:11:52.625 offended. So I wasn't personally offended, but it was 189 00:11:52.625 --> 00:11:56.130 an offensive remark. Yes. And 190 00:11:56.750 --> 00:12:00.210 it wasn't about me, but it was about the perception of this topic. 191 00:12:00.910 --> 00:12:04.404 The other people I know would find that conversation offensive, 192 00:12:04.404 --> 00:12:08.165 although I'm hardened to it, and I don't find I'm not offended by myself, 193 00:12:08.165 --> 00:12:10.904 but I know it's not a good conversation to have. 194 00:12:11.845 --> 00:12:15.420 And Someone's almost calling me, you know, 195 00:12:15.420 --> 00:12:18.940 calling me out as a snowflake or a politically correct person than trying 196 00:12:18.940 --> 00:12:22.635 to whatever. And and and telling me I was offended. I 197 00:12:22.635 --> 00:12:26.075 said, oh, I'm not offended. I'm just pointing out that what you're talking about is 198 00:12:26.075 --> 00:12:29.750 potentially offensive to somebody. And that all I'm asking you to do is 199 00:12:29.750 --> 00:12:33.270 consider who may be listening or watching and 200 00:12:33.270 --> 00:12:37.005 that that's the impression you may give. And it was really 201 00:12:37.005 --> 00:12:40.524 hard to get across the difference between how I feel 202 00:12:40.524 --> 00:12:42.945 and and what is being perceived as. 203 00:12:44.180 --> 00:12:47.540 Yeah. I I I think that that's something that we that's been around for a 204 00:12:47.540 --> 00:12:51.220 long time, and it's quite difficult, because I 205 00:12:51.220 --> 00:12:53.885 think when you occupy a 206 00:12:55.065 --> 00:12:58.745 when you visibly occupy a minority position, okay, 207 00:12:58.745 --> 00:13:02.440 so it's not something you can avoid you know, because people will know, you know, 208 00:13:02.440 --> 00:13:06.120 even if you say nothing, even if the conversation's not about that, you know, even 209 00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:09.945 if you're in Tesco doing your shopping or whatever, you know, it's, you know, 210 00:13:09.945 --> 00:13:13.625 you it's with you all the time. It's not something you can 211 00:13:13.625 --> 00:13:16.445 choose to take off or put back on. When you're in that position, 212 00:13:18.020 --> 00:13:21.860 And people there often assume, and I I I 213 00:13:21.860 --> 00:13:25.445 know I've had this, that people assume that every 214 00:13:25.445 --> 00:13:28.985 conversation that relates to the thing that you are visibly 215 00:13:29.125 --> 00:13:32.505 part of is actually your your battle. 216 00:13:32.725 --> 00:13:36.570 So, you know, an experience tells me that 217 00:13:36.570 --> 00:13:40.010 I also filter that. So I filter that as to whether or not to say 218 00:13:40.010 --> 00:13:43.529 something, and that's where the the the the challenge comes 219 00:13:43.529 --> 00:13:46.585 about being offended by something 220 00:13:46.965 --> 00:13:50.805 and and knowing something is offensive or has 221 00:13:50.805 --> 00:13:54.630 the potential to cause offense And it also happens, I think, 222 00:13:54.630 --> 00:13:57.990 with, you know, friends and and members of my family who are 223 00:13:57.990 --> 00:14:01.350 not member of the same visible minorities as as 224 00:14:01.350 --> 00:14:04.965 myself, that people have said to them, when they've raised 225 00:14:04.965 --> 00:14:08.725 an issue, say, about race and ethnicity, if they're not, black or 226 00:14:08.725 --> 00:14:12.190 minority ethnic themselves, they'll say, well, why do you care? You know, it's 227 00:14:12.190 --> 00:14:15.870 almost like there there is a we we we reach a situation where who 228 00:14:15.870 --> 00:14:19.475 has the right or who the right all the 229 00:14:19.475 --> 00:14:23.315 responsibility to raise an issue has been to be offended. And, actually, 230 00:14:23.315 --> 00:14:26.390 that is that's always a really tricky one, isn't it? 231 00:14:27.110 --> 00:14:30.950 I I mean, it's often said that to be offended as a privilege, most 232 00:14:30.950 --> 00:14:34.550 people don't have the privilege Wellbeing offended that they just are, if you 233 00:14:34.550 --> 00:14:38.255 like, or choose whether to be offended or not. And you're 234 00:14:38.255 --> 00:14:41.875 right, so right about just being you sometimes, 235 00:14:42.175 --> 00:14:45.950 you feel this obligation to represent and be 236 00:14:45.950 --> 00:14:49.490 a role model for whatever your characteristic may be. 237 00:14:50.030 --> 00:14:53.805 And that could be quite exhausting. It is. Because you you 238 00:14:53.805 --> 00:14:57.405 can't you 239 00:14:57.405 --> 00:15:00.880 can't choose not to be. But there's always a sense of 240 00:15:00.880 --> 00:15:04.720 responsibility as well. And I and I say I do I do it's a it's 241 00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:08.074 a it's a tight rope. That I think 242 00:15:08.134 --> 00:15:11.815 that I learned to walk because I, you 243 00:15:11.815 --> 00:15:15.550 know, buy, by a whole range of of 244 00:15:15.550 --> 00:15:19.390 situations, some due to my own direct efforts, some due to being in 245 00:15:19.390 --> 00:15:22.855 the right place at the right time, some due to circumstance, some due 246 00:15:22.855 --> 00:15:26.695 to to some good allieship by people who did not look 247 00:15:26.695 --> 00:15:30.310 like me. I have I am in a position where I am in 248 00:15:30.310 --> 00:15:34.090 spaces where there are not many people like me or with my particular 249 00:15:34.150 --> 00:15:37.910 social background or experience, etcetera. So there is 250 00:15:37.910 --> 00:15:41.665 some responsibility when you're in those spaces to 251 00:15:41.665 --> 00:15:45.125 say the things that have to be said to have those disruptive 252 00:15:45.425 --> 00:15:48.485 conversations and those challenging conversations, 253 00:15:49.540 --> 00:15:53.060 but it but it is a responsibility that you 254 00:15:53.060 --> 00:15:56.740 carry and you and learning to live with that is kind of 255 00:15:56.740 --> 00:15:58.760 part of the personal political balance. 256 00:16:00.725 --> 00:16:03.845 As you're thinking, thinking that, I'm just thinking, I often say that I I've kind 257 00:16:03.845 --> 00:16:07.225 of cheated because I'm professionally trans 258 00:16:07.430 --> 00:16:10.950 whatever better way of putting it. Whilst I don't always talk 259 00:16:10.950 --> 00:16:14.630 about that as my primary conversation, it's 260 00:16:14.630 --> 00:16:18.265 part of who I am. It's my It's my Wellbeing to the 261 00:16:18.265 --> 00:16:22.024 conversation is my that lived experience. And I can't take 262 00:16:22.024 --> 00:16:25.785 it off. I don't hide it a bit. So I I 263 00:16:25.785 --> 00:16:29.529 own it. But it means that I can, I have a privilege that 264 00:16:29.529 --> 00:16:33.290 because I'm professionally my personality, I don't have 265 00:16:33.290 --> 00:16:36.935 to hide any part of me because that's what people are expecting? And I have 266 00:16:36.935 --> 00:16:40.395 a lot of empathy for people who are 267 00:16:41.575 --> 00:16:44.875 a Java programmer, a, as an accountant, whoever, 268 00:16:45.335 --> 00:16:49.080 who have the same characteristic as myself, a lot of people, and they just 269 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:51.740 want to be a great accountant. They don't want to be professionally 270 00:16:52.760 --> 00:16:55.660 trans or black or whatever. They wanna be an accountant. 271 00:16:56.725 --> 00:17:00.165 So I feel like I kinda cheat sometimes because I'm allowed to be 272 00:17:00.165 --> 00:17:03.900 me because that's what I do. And I don't have I don't 273 00:17:03.900 --> 00:17:06.960 have the same battle as somebody who wants to be the accountant first. 274 00:17:08.460 --> 00:17:12.085 But at weekends, I wanna be able to take my professional 275 00:17:12.144 --> 00:17:15.764 hat off and just go back to being the Sainsbury 276 00:17:15.904 --> 00:17:19.504 shopper, you know, go back to my day job of being a human 277 00:17:19.504 --> 00:17:23.339 being. And that's where I find sometimes my shield 278 00:17:23.339 --> 00:17:26.000 of armor is let down. I want vulnerable 279 00:17:27.234 --> 00:17:30.595 I'm now back to the world of of the accountant trying to be an accountant. 280 00:17:30.595 --> 00:17:34.235 I'm the Sainsbury shopper trying to be a Sainsbury shopper, and that's where I feel 281 00:17:34.235 --> 00:17:37.640 -- Yeah. -- defenseless sometimes because I don't have my 282 00:17:37.940 --> 00:17:41.240 my my my my professional armor around me. Professional 283 00:17:41.300 --> 00:17:45.140 armor. Yeah. Yeah. But I but I I would actually I mean, I think 284 00:17:45.140 --> 00:17:48.485 I would I challenge that in a in a way 285 00:17:48.785 --> 00:17:51.295 because I just think it's a it's a different challenge. 286 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:56.440 It's a different challenge. It's not it's not less what is 287 00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:59.960 different. And, you know, very much, you 288 00:17:59.960 --> 00:18:03.615 know, inclusion and diversity is around 289 00:18:03.835 --> 00:18:05.501 equal, but different. So recognizing the difference, but seniors are just a different way of 290 00:18:05.501 --> 00:18:06.495 being. And 291 00:18:10.590 --> 00:18:13.550 I know what you mean. So, for example, when I go to when I go 292 00:18:13.550 --> 00:18:17.070 to the shops, whatever, I mean, you know, I tell I'm a black woman doing 293 00:18:17.070 --> 00:18:20.785 a shopping, you know, a middle aged black woman doing a shopping, you know, and, 294 00:18:21.885 --> 00:18:25.565 I noticed different things. So, for example, when I was a lot 295 00:18:25.565 --> 00:18:29.165 younger, if I was walking down the road and there'd be a group 296 00:18:29.165 --> 00:18:32.690 of young, young working class 297 00:18:32.690 --> 00:18:36.530 men of whatever group, you know, black, white, whatever, they're all crowded on 298 00:18:36.530 --> 00:18:40.025 floor as a young woman walking past you know, they'd have a look at you. 299 00:18:40.025 --> 00:18:42.985 They, you know, they probably would they probably wouldn't step out of the way so 300 00:18:42.985 --> 00:18:45.965 that you'd have to work your way through so they can slow your path 301 00:18:46.760 --> 00:18:50.360 and I would walk towards them thinking, oh, what's gonna happen 302 00:18:50.360 --> 00:18:54.120 now. Okay? As a fifty seven year old woman walk 303 00:18:54.120 --> 00:18:57.665 in the same street, I walk down the road, and they all step off the 304 00:18:57.665 --> 00:19:01.105 pavement. Now I don't know. Now I know that's politeness. You know, they but, 305 00:19:01.105 --> 00:19:04.225 obviously, they're looking at me and thinking this could be my mother or even possibly 306 00:19:04.225 --> 00:19:07.780 my grandmother. So I'm I'm no longer in 307 00:19:07.780 --> 00:19:11.540 this fear of having to create a reaction. I'm just, you know, oh, you're 308 00:19:11.540 --> 00:19:14.684 right. Oh, and they nod And, you know, even though they might be, you know, 309 00:19:14.684 --> 00:19:17.725 being a bit boistery, sure that they tend to walk and let me go past. 310 00:19:17.725 --> 00:19:21.440 And if if somebody in their group doesn't move, they'll say, move. And 311 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:24.980 move them along. So there's something about we are differently 312 00:19:25.040 --> 00:19:28.100 presented and challenged, but on the other hand, professionally, 313 00:19:28.845 --> 00:19:32.285 as you say, when I turn up and I'm doing a presentation or I'm doing 314 00:19:32.285 --> 00:19:35.885 a talk, they know what they're getting. So they're expecting a 315 00:19:35.885 --> 00:19:39.500 politically astute politically aware, black 316 00:19:39.500 --> 00:19:43.100 woman to talk about inclusion and diversity, and they 317 00:19:43.100 --> 00:19:46.895 they they filter me differently. And I think that's what 318 00:19:46.895 --> 00:19:50.655 it is, but you're you're vulnerable. So my vulnerability, I feel more in 319 00:19:50.655 --> 00:19:54.275 the professional space if people are not expecting me, 320 00:19:54.560 --> 00:19:57.840 to look like I am. And that's the thing, isn't it? It's 321 00:19:58.320 --> 00:20:01.600 if the if if if I'm going to a meeting and it's not about inclusion 322 00:20:01.600 --> 00:20:05.435 and diversity, it's about something else. People may have spoken to me 323 00:20:05.435 --> 00:20:09.275 on the phone. They hear my voice. I'm not necessarily what they're expecting to 324 00:20:09.275 --> 00:20:13.070 walk through doing. I've actually had people say, oh, You weren't what we were expecting. 325 00:20:13.070 --> 00:20:16.830 I don't know if you've had that, but they let you think, oh, you're actually 326 00:20:16.830 --> 00:20:20.370 saying that out loud, you know, or do you can you hear yourself? 327 00:20:20.894 --> 00:20:24.735 Yes. I've had some face similar because because the two sides of the work I 328 00:20:24.735 --> 00:20:28.034 do, some of it is around trans awareness, LGBTQ plus. 329 00:20:29.280 --> 00:20:32.720 But a lot of the work I do is around more generic inclusion 330 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:36.295 belonging. I don't want it. I do focus 331 00:20:36.295 --> 00:20:39.435 groups, interviews, facilitated workshops, those sort of things. 332 00:20:40.615 --> 00:20:44.460 And I don't sign post anything about me other 333 00:20:44.460 --> 00:20:48.139 than Joanne Lockwood, inclusion, plumbing specialists. So I 334 00:20:48.139 --> 00:20:51.659 I have, I mean, I stood up on stage in front of six hundred 335 00:20:51.659 --> 00:20:55.385 people, And I know people are gonna go, well, 336 00:20:55.385 --> 00:20:58.925 as soon as I start speaking, because my voice -- Yes. -- is not congruent 337 00:20:58.985 --> 00:21:02.310 with my with my visual image. And I know that's part of my 338 00:21:02.470 --> 00:21:06.310 reaction power, if you like, to throw that and land 339 00:21:06.310 --> 00:21:09.510 at the beginning and own the room and get people to look back and go, 340 00:21:09.510 --> 00:21:13.105 oh, that wasn't expected. But I've I've run training sessions, 341 00:21:13.965 --> 00:21:17.505 recently for a European network, and they they do evaluation 342 00:21:17.565 --> 00:21:21.080 forms at the end. And and I've I've run run this this this event twice. 343 00:21:21.080 --> 00:21:24.840 And twice, I've had a common comment on the evaluation form saying, I really 344 00:21:24.840 --> 00:21:28.495 confuse why Joanne's voice it doesn't fit with 345 00:21:28.495 --> 00:21:31.935 how she looks, and that people are actually remarked about it. Do you 346 00:21:31.935 --> 00:21:35.380 think there weren't so worried about my content. There were just there were just 347 00:21:35.460 --> 00:21:38.980 confused by my voice. It's like, oh, well. It's the way it 348 00:21:38.980 --> 00:21:42.580 is. Yes. Well, exactly. And that and that's the thing. So I think that the 349 00:21:42.580 --> 00:21:45.985 point you're making about being Chad, I think we're we're differently 350 00:21:45.985 --> 00:21:48.865 challenged different spaces. I was speaking, I remember, 351 00:21:49.664 --> 00:21:53.279 having a conversation with my partner, And, you know, he 352 00:21:53.600 --> 00:21:57.360 he's white, he's English, you know, Yorkshire born and bred, you know, all the 353 00:21:57.360 --> 00:22:01.015 rest of it. And for him, he he 354 00:22:01.015 --> 00:22:04.554 notices, I'm his first black partner. 355 00:22:04.855 --> 00:22:08.570 So he he notices now things that I don't notice. So 356 00:22:08.570 --> 00:22:11.850 he'll go not so much now with years down the line, but he at the 357 00:22:11.850 --> 00:22:14.890 beginning, he would say, well, people are looking at us. I've gone, yeah, they'll 358 00:22:14.980 --> 00:22:18.615 lockwood for him, he couldn't understand why they're looking at us? You 359 00:22:18.615 --> 00:22:21.835 know, it's because he's not had that within his experience. 360 00:22:22.910 --> 00:22:25.950 Now he has that. Now he says, I just look at him straight back, but, 361 00:22:25.950 --> 00:22:29.010 you know, before he was slightly confused, and it just shows that, 362 00:22:29.470 --> 00:22:33.245 sometimes we're with our friends, and our colleagues. And this happens at 363 00:22:33.245 --> 00:22:36.705 work. It happens in different places where, you know, they're sometimes 364 00:22:37.085 --> 00:22:40.720 more likely to hear some of the negative comments than we 365 00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:44.400 are because people have some kind. Most people have a filter week saying, well, 366 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:48.055 actually, I'm not going to directly address this with Joanna. I'm 367 00:22:48.055 --> 00:22:51.895 not directly gonna talk about this with Laura because I really like them because 368 00:22:51.895 --> 00:22:55.529 I'm I might be on steady ground, but 369 00:22:55.529 --> 00:22:58.890 they might speak to our colleagues, our peers, our families, our 370 00:22:58.890 --> 00:23:02.555 partners, because unless they 371 00:23:02.555 --> 00:23:06.235 out themselves as being related to us or working with 372 00:23:06.235 --> 00:23:09.675 us, people don't know. And they're kind of thinking, often 373 00:23:09.675 --> 00:23:13.289 thinking, At what point do I say I'm offended, or what point do I 374 00:23:13.289 --> 00:23:16.730 say my partner's black, or what point do I say my partner's trans, or what 375 00:23:16.730 --> 00:23:20.284 point do I say? You know, you know, my mother or 376 00:23:20.284 --> 00:23:23.885 my father or what? At what point do I do I say? Cause they 377 00:23:23.885 --> 00:23:27.710 haven't got that obvious if you 378 00:23:27.710 --> 00:23:31.090 like safety that that will allow people to think 379 00:23:31.470 --> 00:23:34.925 twice before they say things to them, and how do they cope with that? And 380 00:23:34.925 --> 00:23:38.765 that's often something I get asked. That's really 381 00:23:38.765 --> 00:23:42.525 interesting because I've got a good friend who shared with me about probably 382 00:23:42.525 --> 00:23:45.660 about a year ago that people kept coming up to him. And saying 383 00:23:46.360 --> 00:23:50.039 asking questions about me, you know, how should I talk to Joe, this, Joe, that, 384 00:23:50.039 --> 00:23:53.485 Joe, and he just just don't wanna say, Why didn't you ask 385 00:23:53.485 --> 00:23:57.085 Joe? Yes. You don't ask me. I'm not Joe's 386 00:23:57.085 --> 00:24:00.845 agent, you know, kind of a champ and Joe. And, but sometimes, I 387 00:24:00.845 --> 00:24:04.340 guess our friends often get put in the 388 00:24:04.340 --> 00:24:08.180 position where people go to them because they don't people don't wanna maybe offend 389 00:24:08.180 --> 00:24:11.985 us or they wanna yeah, they don't wanna 390 00:24:11.985 --> 00:24:14.465 show their anxiety to us. So, yeah, it's quite interesting. Well, I was gonna say 391 00:24:14.465 --> 00:24:18.245 sometimes sometimes people are, with good intention 392 00:24:18.679 --> 00:24:22.440 if it's not within this sphere of experience either directly 393 00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:26.280 or indirectly, they really just don't wanna get it wrong. 394 00:24:26.280 --> 00:24:30.125 It's, you know, that's I think that is probably the the major driver. They 395 00:24:30.125 --> 00:24:33.804 don't know how, you know, how to do it. So they 396 00:24:33.804 --> 00:24:37.340 go to somebody who they assume or they see 397 00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:41.159 seems to do it okay. And so I think that's one of the 398 00:24:41.159 --> 00:24:44.760 good one of the key things I would say around kind of inclusion and 399 00:24:44.760 --> 00:24:48.445 belonging work. Is that is recognizing that 400 00:24:49.065 --> 00:24:52.745 it, you know, it's not about focusing on 401 00:24:52.745 --> 00:24:56.300