WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.440 --> 00:00:09.225 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the Inclusion 2 00:00:09.225 --> 00:00:12.665 Bites podcast. In this series, I have been interviewing a number of 3 00:00:12.665 --> 00:00:16.364 amazing people and simply having a conversation about the subject of inclusion, 4 00:00:16.860 --> 00:00:20.640 belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. 5 00:00:21.340 --> 00:00:23.980 If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a 6 00:00:23.980 --> 00:00:25.645 line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 7 00:00:27.945 --> 00:00:31.785 That's S-E-E, Change Happen dot co dot uk. You can catch up 8 00:00:31.785 --> 00:00:35.350 with all of the previous shows on Itunes, Spotify, of course, the usual 9 00:00:35.350 --> 00:00:39.190 places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf, and 10 00:00:39.190 --> 00:00:42.809 let's get going. Today is episode 31 11 00:00:43.715 --> 00:00:47.415 with the title, will all diversity and inclusion just happen? 12 00:00:47.955 --> 00:00:51.175 I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by William Buist. 13 00:00:51.860 --> 00:00:55.620 William describes himself as someone who works with clients to ensure they 14 00:00:55.620 --> 00:00:59.395 have the clear business strategies and goals to make them stronger. When I 15 00:00:59.395 --> 00:01:02.995 asked William to describe his superpower, he said that it is 16 00:01:02.995 --> 00:01:03.495 curiosity. 17 00:01:08.200 --> 00:01:10.860 Hello, William. Welcome to the show. 18 00:01:13.240 --> 00:01:16.785 Hello, Jo. I'm very good to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me 19 00:01:16.785 --> 00:01:20.585 on. Absolute pleasure. I'm pleased we've been talking about this for a couple 20 00:01:20.585 --> 00:01:24.030 of months, and I'm pleased we finally made it. So, William, 21 00:01:24.330 --> 00:01:27.870 do you think that diversity and inclusion will just happen? 22 00:01:31.104 --> 00:01:34.385 It's such an interesting question. And I think there have been, 23 00:01:34.784 --> 00:01:38.545 certainly, you know, there's been a lot of legislation over the years 24 00:01:38.545 --> 00:01:42.130 to try to help, move this along and make sure that we 25 00:01:42.130 --> 00:01:45.350 are treating everybody as we should as equals. 26 00:01:46.290 --> 00:01:50.085 And I think the danger is that we kind of think that there are 27 00:01:50.085 --> 00:01:53.925 certainly some people out there who now think that diversity 28 00:01:53.925 --> 00:01:57.350 and inclusion either has already happened, or 29 00:01:57.350 --> 00:02:01.130 that they don't need to do anything more. And I I just think 30 00:02:01.510 --> 00:02:05.085 whilst that's possible, if we were 31 00:02:05.085 --> 00:02:08.625 to take that view of just letting things run as they are, 32 00:02:09.884 --> 00:02:13.720 change would still happen, but it would happen too slowly. I think 33 00:02:13.720 --> 00:02:17.420 too slowly for you, too slowly for me, too slowly for the world at large. 34 00:02:17.960 --> 00:02:21.365 We need to take action. You know, I'm a I'm a white bloke, 35 00:02:21.925 --> 00:02:25.625 So I've had privilege all my life. I've had an unfair 36 00:02:25.685 --> 00:02:29.305 advantage, and too often that unfair advantage 37 00:02:29.365 --> 00:02:33.120 actually is is invisible. I I haven't noticed that I've had an 38 00:02:33.120 --> 00:02:36.880 advantage because I'm the one with it. I think 39 00:02:36.880 --> 00:02:40.425 it's always very easy to see the disadvantage 40 00:02:40.645 --> 00:02:42.505 if you are the one that is disadvantaged. 41 00:02:44.405 --> 00:02:48.110 And I as a result, I kind of, for a long time, 42 00:02:48.110 --> 00:02:51.630 not really realized the impact that that privilege has 43 00:02:51.630 --> 00:02:55.310 had on on other people. You know, I I see 44 00:02:55.310 --> 00:02:58.665 today if we kind of become aware of it as the years have gone by 45 00:02:58.665 --> 00:03:02.285 and seen people that I know and love struggling to overcome 46 00:03:02.505 --> 00:03:05.485 the disadvantage that the world has thrown at them 47 00:03:06.799 --> 00:03:10.560 and and realizing that I wouldn't have had those difficulties. You 48 00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:14.159 know, if I want to, open a door 49 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:17.525 into a company, if I if I pick up the phone and and dial the 50 00:03:17.525 --> 00:03:21.205 number and ask to speak to somebody, I'm more likely to get 51 00:03:21.205 --> 00:03:24.940 through than some other people because I've got a male 52 00:03:24.940 --> 00:03:28.380 voice, because I'm a white bloke. You know, and that just 53 00:03:28.380 --> 00:03:32.185 feels intrinsically wrong. But if equally well, 54 00:03:32.185 --> 00:03:35.885 if you are a white bloke, you may not have 55 00:03:36.025 --> 00:03:39.720 really noticed that happening because you pick the phone up, you get put through. So, 56 00:03:39.720 --> 00:03:43.160 you know, what what is there to notice? You you've gone to do something and 57 00:03:43.160 --> 00:03:46.920 it's happened. It's very difficult to be in the shoes of the 58 00:03:46.920 --> 00:03:50.715 people for whom that doesn't happen. And I mean, I know I'm using a 59 00:03:50.715 --> 00:03:54.175 very simple example, but but it's true in so many areas. 60 00:03:55.995 --> 00:03:59.740 So do I think it would just happen? No. I don't. I think 61 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:03.800 people like me who've got privilege need 62 00:04:03.800 --> 00:04:05.660 to consciously do something 63 00:04:07.864 --> 00:04:11.325 to step away from that privilege and level the playing field. 64 00:04:11.625 --> 00:04:15.224 And I want to level the playing field by bringing the parts of it 65 00:04:15.224 --> 00:04:18.339 that are struggling and finding it harder 66 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:22.879 up rather than, you know, damaging and and doing 67 00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:26.065 down the good things that are on that playing field. And I think that's, 68 00:04:27.265 --> 00:04:31.105 you know, that's a a harder thing to do than just 69 00:04:31.105 --> 00:04:34.730 to kind of some of the, you know, muted 70 00:04:34.730 --> 00:04:37.870 legislation over the years has sought to do, you know, 71 00:04:38.410 --> 00:04:41.850 actively discriminating against a group that's had advantage doesn't 72 00:04:41.850 --> 00:04:45.675 necessarily do anything to remove discrimination. What we need to do 73 00:04:45.675 --> 00:04:48.955 is think about how do we how do we get into a situation where it 74 00:04:48.955 --> 00:04:51.695 doesn't happen at all, where it's not part of the consideration. 75 00:04:53.050 --> 00:04:56.889 That's a very that's a different world, not an amendment of the current one. 76 00:04:56.889 --> 00:05:00.569 And and I think that's hard. I think it's, you know, we all need to 77 00:05:00.569 --> 00:05:04.305 be thinking about how do we do that. Jo sorry. That's a 78 00:05:04.305 --> 00:05:07.815 long answer to a very simple question. Yeah. That's a very good answer. 79 00:05:08.065 --> 00:05:11.700 We are. Very good answer, I mean I've 80 00:05:11.700 --> 00:05:15.540 heard a saying that, a fish doesn't see the water it 81 00:05:15.540 --> 00:05:19.245 swims in until it's taken out of the water And that's often 82 00:05:19.305 --> 00:05:23.145 how privilege works, you don't see your privilege until you're taken 83 00:05:23.145 --> 00:05:26.690 out of your privilege or you're you suddenly have something that changes your life 84 00:05:26.850 --> 00:05:30.610 and makes you appreciate your privilege. And yeah, that's very true. And the other thing 85 00:05:30.610 --> 00:05:32.550 that resonates with what you're saying is that 86 00:05:34.445 --> 00:05:38.125 we need to involve everybody in these discussions and 87 00:05:38.125 --> 00:05:41.965 to demonize white men, to demonize people who 88 00:05:41.965 --> 00:05:44.949 have privilege, and not involved in conversations 89 00:05:45.889 --> 00:05:49.669 doesn't drive change, so it's about collaborative corporate conversations 90 00:05:49.729 --> 00:05:53.225 which is what I believe in. I think the other thing that what you said 91 00:05:53.225 --> 00:05:56.745 struck me was that and I paraphrase what you said what we need is 92 00:05:56.745 --> 00:06:00.460 rapid evolution rather than revolution. So it's not about 93 00:06:00.460 --> 00:06:04.300 throwing away everything we've currently got. It's about evolving at a pace of 94 00:06:04.300 --> 00:06:06.800 change that is acceptable to everybody 95 00:06:07.795 --> 00:06:11.555 whilst maintaining what is working. And I think that would 96 00:06:11.555 --> 00:06:14.995 be more making people more feel more comfortable because I think there's a danger 97 00:06:14.995 --> 00:06:18.040 that by being inclusive and being 98 00:06:18.580 --> 00:06:22.420 forward thinking, we leave people behind and often people leaving behind are the 99 00:06:22.420 --> 00:06:26.265 incumbents and then they feel more marginalized in the same way that I think when 100 00:06:26.265 --> 00:06:30.105 we looked at post apartheid, South Africa, then 101 00:06:30.105 --> 00:06:33.545 the white community were then marginalized in a different way. So and I'm not 102 00:06:33.545 --> 00:06:37.170 saying I I don't understand South African politics Jo I'm not making any judgment call 103 00:06:37.170 --> 00:06:40.370 there. But what we wanna try and do is make sure that there's equity in 104 00:06:40.370 --> 00:06:44.025 society for everybody and suddenly we don't end up 105 00:06:44.025 --> 00:06:47.645 displacing people and say, well, you've had your turn now, 106 00:06:48.265 --> 00:06:51.880 it's now our turn and that all that does is create reluctance for change 107 00:06:51.940 --> 00:06:55.460 and people will tend to barricade their castle and say well I'm not going to 108 00:06:55.460 --> 00:06:58.440 let you in and I think my start is always 109 00:06:59.604 --> 00:07:03.444 dialogue, corporate collaboration, talking, cooperation, lower 110 00:07:03.444 --> 00:07:06.884 the drawbridge, sit round and in pirate terms, 111 00:07:06.884 --> 00:07:10.310 parley, talk about the problems, but not let 112 00:07:10.310 --> 00:07:14.150 talking be a preventative of progress. We don't want lots 113 00:07:14.150 --> 00:07:17.590 of committees, we don't want lots of tracked out. If we want gender equality, we 114 00:07:17.590 --> 00:07:21.055 need to have some really tight timescales, we need to be looking at 2030 and 115 00:07:21.055 --> 00:07:24.895 that's not far away. Some might argue that 2030 is a long way away or 116 00:07:24.895 --> 00:07:28.340 too far, but we've gotta start making change because it starts in something 117 00:07:28.340 --> 00:07:31.720 realistic. But yeah. No. I completely agree with what you're saying. 118 00:07:31.940 --> 00:07:35.384 Yeah. Yeah. It's 119 00:07:35.384 --> 00:07:39.065 it's you you're right. 2030 isn't very far away. 120 00:07:39.065 --> 00:07:42.880 It it will be here before we know it, in 121 00:07:42.880 --> 00:07:46.580 many ways. And I think if we were to get to 2030 122 00:07:46.960 --> 00:07:50.560 and not have a different world 123 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:54.365 where, you know, people were seen for who they are, how they 124 00:07:54.365 --> 00:07:58.125 feel, what they think, the the thoughts that they 125 00:07:58.125 --> 00:08:01.810 have, and the value that they bring to the world by what they do and 126 00:08:01.810 --> 00:08:05.570 how they behave. And in and in all of that, I haven't mentioned anything 127 00:08:05.570 --> 00:08:09.264 on which we discriminate or create 128 00:08:09.264 --> 00:08:13.025 this kind of sense of othering that still exists in society. See 129 00:08:13.025 --> 00:08:16.805 it every day. See people talking about, you know, immigration 130 00:08:17.540 --> 00:08:21.000 in ways that is discriminating against 131 00:08:21.540 --> 00:08:25.220 primarily color of skin, but other things as well. You know, religion can come into 132 00:08:25.220 --> 00:08:28.235 that as well. And there's this whole 133 00:08:28.935 --> 00:08:32.615 piece around, you know, people like me, and I don't mean 134 00:08:32.615 --> 00:08:36.390 people like me William Beers. I mean, that sense of people like 135 00:08:36.390 --> 00:08:40.150 me as a stronger draw than people who are not 136 00:08:40.150 --> 00:08:43.590 like me. And that's always gonna be true. It's part of the human 137 00:08:43.590 --> 00:08:47.305 condition. But that's about difference. It's not about better or 138 00:08:47.305 --> 00:08:50.745 worse. And too often, it's it's 139 00:08:50.745 --> 00:08:54.540 interpreted as better and worse rather 140 00:08:54.540 --> 00:08:58.380 than just different. They're not looking for and celebrating those differences and 141 00:08:58.380 --> 00:09:02.205 saying, what can this teach us? You know, what what is there 142 00:09:02.205 --> 00:09:06.045 about somebody who's blind in terms of the way 143 00:09:06.045 --> 00:09:09.850 they perceive the world? Because clearly they're not seeing it. They're 144 00:09:09.850 --> 00:09:13.310 feeling it, hearing it, tasting it, and touching it. 145 00:09:14.010 --> 00:09:17.529 Now what is it that they get from doing that that I don't get because 146 00:09:17.529 --> 00:09:21.115 I look at it? And what learning is doing 147 00:09:21.115 --> 00:09:24.475 that? And then and and when you have those conversations, boy, do you learn some 148 00:09:24.475 --> 00:09:25.535 stuff that's interesting? 149 00:09:28.390 --> 00:09:32.230 And, you know, that takes me into takes 150 00:09:32.230 --> 00:09:35.510 me into a little story, actually, about one of the things that I think as 151 00:09:35.510 --> 00:09:38.945 a business person that we that we all do is, 152 00:09:39.404 --> 00:09:43.185 you know, we're we're we're talking to the people we know, to our clients, 153 00:09:43.245 --> 00:09:46.850 to people who have run across us. And and from time to time, they ask 154 00:09:46.930 --> 00:09:50.610 things like, you know, a question that starts with, who do you know 155 00:09:50.610 --> 00:09:54.290 who? Who do you know who does a 156 00:09:54.290 --> 00:09:57.715 diversity and inclusion podcast? Or who do you know who speaks 157 00:09:57.715 --> 00:10:01.175 on, speaks on communication 158 00:10:01.795 --> 00:10:05.570 skills? And those questions, you know, they're trying to get 159 00:10:05.570 --> 00:10:09.270 to somebody in my mind who I know, who I understand, 160 00:10:09.490 --> 00:10:13.325 who I think is good at that thing that they're asking about, and who 161 00:10:13.325 --> 00:10:16.905 I would refer. And I I remember 162 00:10:17.605 --> 00:10:21.365 when I first Joanne, an organization called the PSA, 163 00:10:21.365 --> 00:10:24.300 of which we are both members, the Professional Speaking Association, 164 00:10:25.880 --> 00:10:29.399 which some of your listeners, I'm sure will be too, but others others 165 00:10:29.399 --> 00:10:32.995 perhaps haven't heard of it. And one of the things that 166 00:10:32.995 --> 00:10:36.535 struck me very quickly was how collaborative 167 00:10:36.595 --> 00:10:40.214 that community of people is and how much referral 168 00:10:40.355 --> 00:10:44.100 goes on between speakers of other speakers. You 169 00:10:44.100 --> 00:10:47.720 know, for people who are all in the industry of speaking, 170 00:10:48.420 --> 00:10:52.115 there is almost no competition because we all speak on our 171 00:10:52.574 --> 00:10:56.355 on our topic, whatever our topic is. So we're we're not 172 00:10:56.415 --> 00:11:00.220 worried about referring others because we're referring them for their topic, not 173 00:11:00.220 --> 00:11:03.920 for ours. But one of the things I noticed was that, 174 00:11:04.700 --> 00:11:08.495 there was a tendency for people, and I think rightly, way, only to 175 00:11:08.495 --> 00:11:12.334 refer to those people who they had seen speak and who they knew 176 00:11:12.334 --> 00:11:15.795 well. And you look at the history of the speaking 177 00:11:16.180 --> 00:11:19.720 industry, and the history of the speaking industry was white blokes. 178 00:11:21.060 --> 00:11:24.774 And so what you've got is people who've seen white blokes who are really 179 00:11:24.774 --> 00:11:28.315 good at what they do, and so the white blokes refer to white blokes. 180 00:11:29.175 --> 00:11:32.235 And it's not that they're trying 181 00:11:33.019 --> 00:11:36.699 to exclude anybody, and it's not that they're trying not to be diverse. They're 182 00:11:36.699 --> 00:11:39.199 just the people that they've seen and that they know. 183 00:11:40.634 --> 00:11:44.235 And so I I looked to that and I thought, let me have a look 184 00:11:44.235 --> 00:11:47.600 at my black book and see who would I refer. And I 185 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:51.280 started realizing that my black book too was filled with people who were 186 00:11:51.280 --> 00:11:55.045 white male predominantly. And I thought this 187 00:11:55.285 --> 00:11:58.425 that something should Joanne, and the only person who can change that is me. 188 00:11:59.285 --> 00:12:02.720 So I've been spending the last 5 or 6 years deliberately 189 00:12:03.020 --> 00:12:06.240 seeking out people from from other backgrounds, 190 00:12:06.620 --> 00:12:10.194 other, you know, other diversities, other and 191 00:12:10.194 --> 00:12:13.735 seeking to be inclusive in who do I know? Who's in my black book? 192 00:12:14.035 --> 00:12:17.810 And I remember somebody we both know that sadly is no longer with us, Joy 193 00:12:17.810 --> 00:12:20.230 Marston. Joy, 194 00:12:21.170 --> 00:12:24.735 wonderful black lady who who spoke really 195 00:12:24.735 --> 00:12:27.795 about motivation and keeping going when times were tough, 196 00:12:29.055 --> 00:12:32.880 and and a whole, you know, whole beautiful style that she had. And 197 00:12:32.880 --> 00:12:36.660 she was speaking down the road from where I live in Cardiff. 198 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:40.245 And I thought, I haven't seen her speak. I'm going to go and see her 199 00:12:40.245 --> 00:12:43.605 speak because then I can put I can put Jo in my black book as 200 00:12:43.605 --> 00:12:47.220 one of the people who I would refer, you know, if if if 201 00:12:47.220 --> 00:12:50.180 that's worthwhile doing. And, 202 00:12:50.900 --> 00:12:54.575 there's 2 things that happened. 1 is that Joy was, you know, 203 00:12:54.575 --> 00:12:58.415 quite taken aback to find me there in the audience. It wasn't 204 00:12:58.415 --> 00:13:01.214 an audience you would expect to see me in, and I explained why I come 205 00:13:01.214 --> 00:13:04.830 to to see you speak. And and we struck up a 206 00:13:04.830 --> 00:13:07.410 really strong and enduring friendship, 207 00:13:08.430 --> 00:13:12.155 from from having done that. And she taught me an awful lot 208 00:13:12.155 --> 00:13:15.535 that helped me with my speaking, which wasn't why I went to Seav at all. 209 00:13:15.915 --> 00:13:19.730 And and part of my point here is that when we are inclusive, 210 00:13:19.790 --> 00:13:23.390 we're gonna get benefits we didn't even consider when we set 211 00:13:23.390 --> 00:13:26.990 out to do those things. And I just would invite 212 00:13:26.990 --> 00:13:30.405 listeners to think about where have you got an 213 00:13:30.405 --> 00:13:34.165 inadvertent, unintentional bias in the 214 00:13:34.165 --> 00:13:37.930 things that you do and say and think that lead you to 215 00:13:37.930 --> 00:13:41.610 an a less inclusive group of people than you 216 00:13:41.610 --> 00:13:45.245 could otherwise have. And what can you do to change that? Because 217 00:13:45.245 --> 00:13:48.464 that's how we change this. That's how we make the world more inclusive. 218 00:13:49.165 --> 00:13:52.385 Little a a 100000000 little changes 219 00:13:53.100 --> 00:13:56.720 is much better than one piece of legislation that most people don't understand. 220 00:14:00.275 --> 00:14:03.395 Yeah. I I think nudges is a good word as well. We can make a 221 00:14:03.395 --> 00:14:07.155 small nudge, inclusive nudge. We can be an 222 00:14:07.155 --> 00:14:10.620 ally or whatever. Ally. Ally should just have to be huge massive 223 00:14:10.620 --> 00:14:13.600 gestures as you say. It can be a small nudge, it can be a small 224 00:14:13.820 --> 00:14:17.615 invitation, it could be amplifying, it could be creating space for someone 225 00:14:17.615 --> 00:14:21.315 to have access to something they wouldn't have had without your without your input. 226 00:14:21.935 --> 00:14:25.470 And it's interesting what you're talking about networking it's I know many people who come 227 00:14:25.470 --> 00:14:29.310 from marginalized or underrepresented communities or are 228 00:14:29.310 --> 00:14:33.125 underrepresented in certain positions, networking is often a 229 00:14:33.125 --> 00:14:36.964 big barrier because it's generally the domain and I'm 230 00:14:36.964 --> 00:14:40.540 not saying historically it was the domain of the white man or 231 00:14:40.540 --> 00:14:43.980 the man in power, you had in order to go to a 232 00:14:43.980 --> 00:14:47.825 breakfast networking event, you had to have availability to go 233 00:14:47.825 --> 00:14:51.285 to breakfast somewhere else where many working women, 234 00:14:51.345 --> 00:14:54.945 there are many working parents who aren't women as well, but there are many many 235 00:14:54.945 --> 00:14:58.360 working women who had responsibilities for child care, found it very 236 00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:02.040 difficult to, to do both jobs, you know, go 237 00:15:02.040 --> 00:15:05.855 networking at breakfast and make the children okay and sort out the home etcetera 238 00:15:05.855 --> 00:15:09.535 etcetera. And then another networking zone is lunch hour and 239 00:15:09.535 --> 00:15:13.315 then and then there's after work networking and again there's often discriminations 240 00:15:13.455 --> 00:15:16.870 again against women who have had home and family responsibilities. 241 00:15:17.970 --> 00:15:21.590 And as we both know, it's quite difficult sometimes to break into the networking 242 00:15:21.650 --> 00:15:25.385 clique, You gotta have a level of confidence, maybe you need to be referred 243 00:15:25.385 --> 00:15:28.985 in by somebody. So if you haven't got access to that power and 244 00:15:28.985 --> 00:15:32.649 privilege circle, how do you make your first break? How do you get 245 00:15:32.649 --> 00:15:36.009 someone to give you that leg in? And as you were saying, the important thing 246 00:15:36.009 --> 00:15:39.370 here is just creating that little bit of movement, identifying someone's on the 247 00:15:39.370 --> 00:15:43.185 outside and just opening the door and say come in meet my friends 248 00:15:43.325 --> 00:15:46.365 this is so and so they're fantastic they they do this and I've used them 249 00:15:46.365 --> 00:15:50.120 before and they're amazing. And that's what networking is about, 250 00:15:50.260 --> 00:15:53.220 which is to make sure we're doing it to people who are not the traditional 251 00:15:53.220 --> 00:15:56.660 people. I've seen people who go network and get 252 00:15:56.660 --> 00:16:00.295 all you end up evaluated with someone suitable for the club. 253 00:16:01.075 --> 00:16:04.889 They all sit around and discuss about this person, say, well, actually they're not really 254 00:16:04.889 --> 00:16:07.389 very business y. They're a bit they're a bit kind of, 255 00:16:08.490 --> 00:16:11.850 bit working class for us really. We're here we're a bit more business professional and 256 00:16:11.850 --> 00:16:15.655 I've seen people actually creating judgments on whether someone's good 257 00:16:15.655 --> 00:16:19.115 enough to join the networking club because of their their social standing. 258 00:16:19.815 --> 00:16:23.420 And that was less than 5 that's about 5 or 6 years ago and I 259 00:16:23.420 --> 00:16:27.259 think are we we must be still doing that, it must 260 00:16:27.259 --> 00:16:31.095 be still happening I can't believe the society's changed that much. But we we are. 261 00:16:31.095 --> 00:16:34.715 We're furthering these these as you call it othering, which is a great term. 262 00:16:34.935 --> 00:16:38.589 We're seeing people who are different to us as other, the outsider. And 263 00:16:38.589 --> 00:16:42.190 and they're still doing so. How how I mean, I don't know how much networking 264 00:16:42.190 --> 00:16:46.029 you do outside the PSA, but it's it still happens on on LinkedIn maybe, 265 00:16:46.029 --> 00:16:49.015 we're amplifying different people, maybe people like us. 266 00:16:52.115 --> 00:16:55.560 Yeah. And I think there's I mean, there's a there's a real 267 00:16:55.560 --> 00:16:59.240 challenge around understanding who the 268 00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:02.600 people in the group are from the outside as well. You know, 269 00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:06.335 that as well as as you've rightly 270 00:17:06.394 --> 00:17:10.234 described, that whole ethos in a networking group of, 271 00:17:10.234 --> 00:17:14.050 you know, are they good enough? And I mean, who who defines what good is 272 00:17:14.050 --> 00:17:17.110 for goodness sake? I mean, it's just it's a nonsense, isn't it? 273 00:17:17.570 --> 00:17:21.345 And it it's one of the things I think that, you know, we're recording 274 00:17:21.345 --> 00:17:24.085 this at the, at the beginning of March, 275 00:17:25.025 --> 00:17:28.660 2021. So, you know, we're we're in a lockdown situation 276 00:17:29.620 --> 00:17:33.380 country. We're a year almost a year into, the pandemic and 277 00:17:33.380 --> 00:17:37.220 having to work much more frequently remotely. You and I 278 00:17:37.220 --> 00:17:40.785 were just chatting before we started recording about how that's affected 279 00:17:40.845 --> 00:17:44.525 our business and our ability to reach out to to people 280 00:17:44.525 --> 00:17:48.149 and to get our businesses in a wider you know, 281 00:17:48.149 --> 00:17:51.870 with wider acceptance. I know 282 00:17:51.990 --> 00:17:55.035 I don't know about you, but I've been certainly been chatting to people all over 283 00:17:55.035 --> 00:17:58.235 the world in a way that I simply would not have done had I been 284 00:17:58.235 --> 00:18:01.755 traveling because, you know, chat to somebody in Australia for half an 285 00:18:01.755 --> 00:18:05.320 hour and fly out there to do that. You know? I mean, it was it 286 00:18:05.320 --> 00:18:09.160 was it's just not not feasible. It's become it was 287 00:18:09.160 --> 00:18:12.575 always feasible before, but it tended not to happen. And now we've got this 288 00:18:12.575 --> 00:18:16.255 opportunity to network in a very different way. And I 289 00:18:16.255 --> 00:18:19.955 think I I'm delighted because I've seen people 290 00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:24.860 on those networking calls and and events and things 291 00:18:25.399 --> 00:18:29.175 who you wouldn't necessarily normally see because they're in a 292 00:18:29.175 --> 00:18:32.555 wheelchair, or they're blind, or they've got 293 00:18:33.255 --> 00:18:37.095 some other disability that that means it's difficult for them to travel or 294 00:18:37.095 --> 00:18:40.500 to get out or to to go, as you say, at 295 00:18:40.500 --> 00:18:44.340 breakfast time or in the evening when when other pressures come to 296 00:18:44.340 --> 00:18:47.615 bear. And that opportunity 297 00:18:47.835 --> 00:18:51.674 to have time spent with 298 00:18:51.674 --> 00:18:55.380 people for whom you wouldn't normally spend time has 299 00:18:55.380 --> 00:18:59.140 just reinforced again to most of the people I know and to 300 00:18:59.299 --> 00:19:03.095 especially to me that people are just people. You 301 00:19:03.095 --> 00:19:06.935 know, they're just it doesn't matter whether the body's working 302 00:19:06.935 --> 00:19:10.395 properly or not. You know, if you've got some physical disability or 303 00:19:11.530 --> 00:19:15.210 or what the color of your skin is or what religion you are, we're 304 00:19:15.210 --> 00:19:18.905 all human. We all feel. We all think. And we all have we 305 00:19:18.905 --> 00:19:22.665 all have the opportunity to listen and process in our own way from our 306 00:19:22.665 --> 00:19:26.505 own experience and play back, you know, as you did 307 00:19:26.505 --> 00:19:30.340 earlier in this podcast. You know, you listened to what I said and you paraphrased 308 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:34.080 it and you played it back. And then I I'm hearing that 309 00:19:34.080 --> 00:19:37.540 paraphrase. What I'm hearing is what you heard 310 00:19:38.675 --> 00:19:42.355 tempered with your experience, all the years of experience that 311 00:19:42.355 --> 00:19:45.495 you've had and how valuable is it to get that feedback. 312 00:19:46.260 --> 00:19:49.720 You know, have I been clear in my communication? I can only tell 313 00:19:50.100 --> 00:19:53.240 when I hear it played back to me. And 314 00:19:53.715 --> 00:19:57.174 what I'm what I'm delighted to see is that people are 315 00:19:57.554 --> 00:20:01.395 kinda having their eyes opened a bit to the fact that everybody can bring 316 00:20:01.395 --> 00:20:05.070 value, regardless of their history, regardless of their social 317 00:20:05.070 --> 00:20:08.370 standing, regardless of anything. If they're in a conversation 318 00:20:09.150 --> 00:20:12.815 and they're bringing to bear their viewpoint, It has as 319 00:20:12.815 --> 00:20:16.275 much value as anybody else. And the more we can show that and demonstrate 320 00:20:16.335 --> 00:20:19.855 it, the less the more we break down that fear that 321 00:20:20.210 --> 00:20:23.850 of the other that we've been talking about. And it's a 322 00:20:23.850 --> 00:20:27.670 it's a fear. It's not based on anything systematic 323 00:20:27.810 --> 00:20:31.565 other than an emotion. And and the way we break down 324 00:20:31.565 --> 00:20:35.105 fear is to build familiarity and and comfort and trust. 325 00:20:35.804 --> 00:20:39.460 And I think that's something that this medium, you know, the 326 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:42.260 the the in Lockwood medium of communicating 327 00:20:43.120 --> 00:20:46.695 across technology has really helped to do. And I just hope 328 00:20:46.695 --> 00:20:50.375 that hangs around when we move back into a more 329 00:20:50.375 --> 00:20:53.975 open society where we can meet in person as well. And and I kind 330 00:20:53.975 --> 00:20:57.800 of a challenge for those who are listening is how are you 331 00:20:57.800 --> 00:21:01.560 going to be as inclusive as you have been on on Zoom 332 00:21:01.560 --> 00:21:04.825 and all those other tools when you're 333 00:21:05.284 --> 00:21:08.965 back into traveling and meeting people. What what are you gonna do 334 00:21:08.965 --> 00:21:12.690 differently because of what you've learned in the last year to 335 00:21:12.690 --> 00:21:16.289 be more inclusive? And I think if we all think 336 00:21:16.289 --> 00:21:19.669 about that question a little bit, well, that might make quite a difference. 337 00:21:21.125 --> 00:21:24.664 Yeah. I I love what you're saying about the listening element here. And, 338 00:21:24.965 --> 00:21:28.245 I mean, we're speakers. We like to share stories. We like to share our own 339 00:21:28.245 --> 00:21:31.530 story, and we like to listen to other stories. But One of the things I 340 00:21:31.530 --> 00:21:35.290 always focus on is as a human species we tend to be most of our 341 00:21:35.290 --> 00:21:38.715 conversations about around trying to sell our own ideas we always want 342 00:21:38.715 --> 00:21:42.155 to say we're right, we want to give our perspective and 343 00:21:42.155 --> 00:21:45.755 educate somebody. And we do that all the time, you know, not just in 344 00:21:45.755 --> 00:21:49.570 professional but when we're trying to to decide which cinema film 345 00:21:49.570 --> 00:21:52.050 we're going to go and watch, we want to persuade the other person we're going 346 00:21:52.050 --> 00:21:54.690 with, we want to watch our film or their film, we try to come into 347 00:21:54.690 --> 00:21:58.205 consensus. What I encourage people to do in a DNI 348 00:21:58.265 --> 00:22:01.945 space when even in a humanity space is to start trying to prove 349 00:22:01.945 --> 00:22:05.770 yourself wrong all the time, which may sound like an oxymoron, may sound a bit 350 00:22:05.770 --> 00:22:09.450 crazy, but if we try and prove ourselves wrong, we'll get to 351 00:22:09.450 --> 00:22:13.285 the truth quicker. Because otherwise what we end up doing is trenching in our 352 00:22:13.285 --> 00:22:17.125 positions trying to both trying to prove ourselves right. Whereas if I 353 00:22:17.125 --> 00:22:20.920 start asking you questions about your reality about your perception, 354 00:22:21.059 --> 00:22:24.120 I'm going to learn about you and why you think something. 355 00:22:24.980 --> 00:22:28.805 So we're not actually having a debate about the minutiae of the point we're 356 00:22:28.805 --> 00:22:32.245 trying to make, we're trying to understand the logic or be or the person behind 357 00:22:32.245 --> 00:22:35.285 the point they're trying to make. Because I may not we may not agree on 358 00:22:35.285 --> 00:22:38.950 the point, But I may be able to understand that your lived experience where 359 00:22:38.950 --> 00:22:42.710 you've where you've been in life, the things that affected you have led you 360 00:22:42.710 --> 00:22:46.095 to think this is a good idea. I Jo, well, I don't see it's a 361 00:22:46.095 --> 00:22:49.315 good idea because I've had this. And when we start to understand who we are, 362 00:22:49.775 --> 00:22:53.140 we start to forget about the point of right or wrong. We just go, 363 00:22:53.140 --> 00:22:56.980 actually, I understand about William now and I kind of realize where he's where you're 364 00:22:56.980 --> 00:23:00.820 coming from or where you've said that. And we're still we're 365 00:23:00.820 --> 00:23:04.365 not agreeing to disagree, we're just agreeing to understand each 366 00:23:04.365 --> 00:23:07.965 other's perspectives of why something is different between us. I 367 00:23:07.965 --> 00:23:11.665 think that's that's the challenge of trying to prove yourself wrong 368 00:23:11.970 --> 00:23:14.770 rather than always trying to prove yourself right because otherwise we we just end up 369 00:23:14.770 --> 00:23:18.450 in these entrenched, unwinnable arguments when nobody comes 370 00:23:18.450 --> 00:23:22.115 out enlightened or with any more 371 00:23:22.115 --> 00:23:25.554 knowledge than they started with. And that's that's because by opening our 372 00:23:25.554 --> 00:23:29.260 mind, I can come up with another opinion without having 373 00:23:29.260 --> 00:23:33.100 to agree with you. Yeah, show me your workings out. We may have a 374 00:23:33.100 --> 00:23:36.560 different answer, but I get your workings out, I can see where we differ. 375 00:23:36.780 --> 00:23:39.165 That's I think the power of listening, 376 00:23:40.505 --> 00:23:44.025 and reflecting and understanding somebody to just to learn about someone that's 377 00:23:44.025 --> 00:23:47.600 perspective. I think that's the power of, you know, when we talk about diversity, we 378 00:23:47.600 --> 00:23:51.360 talk about inclusion, it's about the power of other people. It's about those those 379 00:23:51.360 --> 00:23:55.005 powers of other perspectives. There's powers of difference of opinions, 380 00:23:55.065 --> 00:23:58.605 though, someone from a different ethnicity, a different faith, a different background, 381 00:23:59.065 --> 00:24:02.765 a different gender, whatever that whatever the gender identity is. 382 00:24:03.770 --> 00:24:07.450 That person has a different perspective on life to me. And I 383 00:24:07.450 --> 00:24:11.230 wanna learn about that perspective, so I can incorporate that into my model 384 00:24:11.450 --> 00:24:15.245 and go, okay, I know what it's like to be me, but I don't know 385 00:24:15.245 --> 00:24:18.925 what it's like to be you. So let me hear your story. And 386 00:24:18.925 --> 00:24:22.330 next time I meet someone who's different from me, I'll go, okay, I've heard lots 387 00:24:22.330 --> 00:24:26.090 of stories, I kind of get different perspectives now. And is it and I 388 00:24:26.090 --> 00:24:29.870 can then be involved in their conversation because I've got that sort of 389 00:24:30.264 --> 00:24:33.384 way of thinking in my head and I think that that's the kind of the 390 00:24:33.384 --> 00:24:36.764 key thing. But picking up on the other thing you were talking about is the 391 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:41.080 the othering, the the disability. I I watched, 392 00:24:41.320 --> 00:24:45.000 on iplay the night a documentary called silenced and it was 393 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:48.815 about disability, people of disability and it was 394 00:24:48.815 --> 00:24:52.255 looking at the history of that about the eugenics and about how we were trying 395 00:24:52.255 --> 00:24:55.710 to fix people, how people who had deformed 396 00:24:55.710 --> 00:24:59.390 limbs had to be put in casts and and how there's this fear 397 00:24:59.390 --> 00:25:03.070 of people who are missing limbs and they had to wear prosthetics. It wasn't for 398 00:25:03.070 --> 00:25:06.915 their benefit, yet so they didn't scare the other people. So we've 399 00:25:06.915 --> 00:25:10.355 kind of built up this disfigurement is scary, 400 00:25:10.355 --> 00:25:14.139 difference is scary, difference is other. We want we want to 401 00:25:14.139 --> 00:25:17.500