WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.760 --> 00:00:05.440 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the 2 00:00:05.440 --> 00:00:09.285 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have been interviewing a 3 00:00:09.285 --> 00:00:12.885 number of amazing people as simply having a conversation around the 4 00:00:12.885 --> 00:00:16.700 subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world 5 00:00:16.700 --> 00:00:20.140 a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd love to join me in the 6 00:00:20.140 --> 00:00:22.220 future, then please do drop me a line to 7 00:00:22.220 --> 00:00:25.904 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's 8 00:00:25.904 --> 00:00:29.664 S-E-E, Change Happen dot co dot uk. You'll be able to 9 00:00:29.664 --> 00:00:33.160 catch up with all of the previous shows on Itunes, Spotify, and the 10 00:00:33.160 --> 00:00:36.520 usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a 11 00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:39.980 decaf, and let's get going. Today 12 00:00:40.200 --> 00:00:43.905 is episode 32 with the title standing 13 00:00:43.905 --> 00:00:46.565 in the middle and feeling excluded. 14 00:00:47.664 --> 00:00:51.344 And I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by my great 15 00:00:51.344 --> 00:00:55.160 friend, Tom Morley. Tom describes himself 16 00:00:55.160 --> 00:00:58.219 as someone who is compelling, cheeky, 17 00:00:58.920 --> 00:01:02.664 unbelievably expensive, irreverent, but at the end of the 18 00:01:02.664 --> 00:01:06.505 day, value for money. And when I asked Tom to 19 00:01:06.505 --> 00:01:09.884 describe his super bear, he said it is authenticity 20 00:01:10.870 --> 00:01:14.390 and turning up. Hello, Tom. Welcome to the 21 00:01:14.390 --> 00:01:18.165 show. It's good to be here. And that 22 00:01:18.165 --> 00:01:21.845 whole authenticity thing, you probably know this phrase, once you fake that, 23 00:01:21.845 --> 00:01:25.685 you got it made. But thank 24 00:01:25.685 --> 00:01:29.450 you for joining me. I know we've spoken many, many hundreds of hours over the 25 00:01:29.450 --> 00:01:33.130 last lockdown months, but Jo it's been 26 00:01:33.130 --> 00:01:36.430 great. We've finally got to catch up and schedule this in. So Tom, 27 00:01:37.025 --> 00:01:40.805 tell me about standing in the middle of feeling excluded. 28 00:01:42.064 --> 00:01:45.890 Well, first of all, I have to I have to fess 29 00:01:45.890 --> 00:01:49.030 up about the decaf because you and I have worked together. 30 00:01:49.410 --> 00:01:52.950 I know you wouldn't go near decaf. 31 00:01:54.445 --> 00:01:58.125 So, I prepared for this by making myself a real full cafe. 32 00:01:58.125 --> 00:02:01.905 So, if I, yeah, 33 00:02:01.965 --> 00:02:05.760 rein me in if I go a bit too far at any 34 00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:08.979 point. So Bounce off the walls. Yes. Yeah. 35 00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:12.844 Standing in the middle. I'm still feeling excused excluded, 36 00:02:13.625 --> 00:02:17.465 refers to, being the 37 00:02:17.465 --> 00:02:21.280 youngest child in a family, youngest of 38 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:24.960 4 boys. And the other 3 always Lockwood like a 39 00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:28.740 gang to me, you know, fully formed gang. And 40 00:02:30.045 --> 00:02:33.885 because, I mean, this happens to the 4th child. You have to 41 00:02:33.885 --> 00:02:37.425 look for a role. And I was naturally sort of quite 42 00:02:37.740 --> 00:02:41.200 anyway. So and encouraged by my mom, I'd say, 43 00:02:41.580 --> 00:02:45.260 you thought she could, move me into the area of 44 00:02:45.260 --> 00:02:48.695 graphic design, I could make some money. We were a poor family. 45 00:02:48.695 --> 00:02:52.455 So she thought, last, I've had a child who could make us some money. 46 00:02:52.455 --> 00:02:56.295 So that kind of excluded me even more from the gangs. They thought I 47 00:02:56.295 --> 00:02:59.720 was kinda namby pamby while they were, you know, 48 00:02:59.720 --> 00:03:02.780 building camps and falling out of trees and stuff. 49 00:03:04.600 --> 00:03:08.445 So when I when I grew up, I thought, right. 50 00:03:08.825 --> 00:03:12.665 I looked around and I thought, right. If I become a vocal 51 00:03:12.665 --> 00:03:16.400 harmony facilitator that 52 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:20.240 I look I could see you stand in the middle of the circle and you 53 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:24.080 divide the the group into 3 and you teach this group 54 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:27.425 and then teach that group and you teach all different parts. Now we're looking at 55 00:03:27.425 --> 00:03:31.185 you all the time. So I thought that I'm 56 00:03:31.185 --> 00:03:35.030 bound to be included then. I'll not only be included, I'll be the leader. 57 00:03:35.730 --> 00:03:39.490 But the the there was a a quirk. I took 58 00:03:39.490 --> 00:03:43.185 a drum with me and I used to lead with the drum. 59 00:03:44.285 --> 00:03:47.965 And then everybody said, oh, great. That drumming 60 00:03:47.965 --> 00:03:51.750 thing was great. When you come back, can you bring the drums? And I 61 00:03:51.810 --> 00:03:55.250 said, this is vocal harmony. It's it's it's not about drums. Just 62 00:03:55.250 --> 00:03:58.710 200 people, one drum. Right? And me, the leader 63 00:03:58.915 --> 00:04:02.355 in the middle. They said, yeah, we love the drumming. Bring the drums. 64 00:04:02.355 --> 00:04:06.135 So eventually, it was like, Polanski 65 00:04:06.275 --> 00:04:10.050 is the tenant, you know, when you you kinda get moved to 66 00:04:10.050 --> 00:04:13.730 be this person that everyone wants you to be. So I bought 67 00:04:13.730 --> 00:04:17.305 200 drums and, gave me out. They all loved it. 68 00:04:17.605 --> 00:04:20.825 And but the trouble was with that, at the end of the session, 69 00:04:22.325 --> 00:04:25.830 they all kind of loved me and everything, but they went to the bar and 70 00:04:25.830 --> 00:04:29.670 I ended up loading the van and missing all the jokes and all 71 00:04:29.670 --> 00:04:32.950 the humor. And, and then by the time I got to the bar, they're all 72 00:04:32.950 --> 00:04:36.514 leaving. Bye, Tom. Great session. So 73 00:04:36.514 --> 00:04:39.974 I kinda discovered that I couldn't 74 00:04:40.034 --> 00:04:43.419 engineer physically a way of being in the 75 00:04:43.419 --> 00:04:47.120 gang. I had to kind of join the gang, 76 00:04:48.539 --> 00:04:52.295 by being I mean, that's why authenticity comes into it in 77 00:04:52.295 --> 00:04:56.075 the intro. I found that, if I was authentic, 78 00:04:56.695 --> 00:05:00.460 I didn't have to trick it 200 people into looking at me. I 79 00:05:00.460 --> 00:05:04.220 just hang out, you know, and say, I'm a 80 00:05:04.220 --> 00:05:07.659 bit fed up about this or this went wrong or that went right 81 00:05:07.659 --> 00:05:10.085 or and, and, actually, 82 00:05:11.425 --> 00:05:15.205 man, I could save myself so many years of training, 83 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:20.240 to impress people because, nobody really needs to do that. You 84 00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:24.080 just need to say, oh, you know, I'm feeling 85 00:05:24.080 --> 00:05:27.855 a bit down today. Oh, come over here, mate. Tell me about it. 86 00:05:27.855 --> 00:05:29.075 It's all you need to do. 87 00:05:33.590 --> 00:05:37.430 I love the way you said, that you you were kind of you 88 00:05:37.430 --> 00:05:41.210 had this vision about this, yeah, as you said, vocal harmony facilitator. 89 00:05:41.350 --> 00:05:45.115 Now that sounds such a great role, vocal harmony facilitator and I've never come 90 00:05:45.115 --> 00:05:48.875 across that. But it cast me back to the days as a young person, you 91 00:05:48.875 --> 00:05:52.570 know, sitting around the campfire and you do those rounds, you know, London's burning, 92 00:05:52.570 --> 00:05:55.210 London's burning and it all starts at different times and you try and get it 93 00:05:55.210 --> 00:05:59.005 that harmony going. So I really I really took took me right to that point 94 00:05:59.005 --> 00:06:02.565 in my life and with with some fond memories. But isn't it incredible 95 00:06:02.565 --> 00:06:06.405 sometimes that despite our best efforts, the thing we want to 96 00:06:06.405 --> 00:06:10.020 be proud of relate to, they relate to something you 97 00:06:10.020 --> 00:06:13.700 just it's incidental like your drum, you know, this is who you were this 98 00:06:13.700 --> 00:06:17.395 vocal harmony facilitator and suddenly you become the drummer that it's 99 00:06:18.255 --> 00:06:21.775 like almost like forcing you to be someone you weren't trying to 100 00:06:21.775 --> 00:06:25.135 be. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, the I mean, 101 00:06:25.135 --> 00:06:27.380 my brothers all, 102 00:06:29.440 --> 00:06:33.120 moved into the furniture business. They made a lot of money in antiques. They 103 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:36.775 were moving furniture all around the world, you know? 104 00:06:37.155 --> 00:06:40.755 And, and that my joke was, well, you 105 00:06:40.755 --> 00:06:44.200 people, you get everybody and sit, everybody's sitting down. 106 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:49.240 I'm gonna get everybody standing up. So all my groups always get them standing 107 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:53.025 up. And then when I bought the drums, that 108 00:06:53.025 --> 00:06:56.805 kinda African wooden, drums with these beautiful 109 00:06:56.945 --> 00:07:00.725 hats on, you know, covers in this beautiful African material 110 00:07:01.345 --> 00:07:04.880 and string, and they're really lovely things. And I turn up at these 111 00:07:04.880 --> 00:07:08.479 posh venues as the facilitator, and the door peep would 112 00:07:08.479 --> 00:07:12.215 say, oh, are they the new bar stools? You should go 113 00:07:12.215 --> 00:07:15.973 around the back, mate, and bring them in the, good tensions. Jo, 114 00:07:16.215 --> 00:07:19.220 again, I was, you know, and, 115 00:07:20.639 --> 00:07:24.240 you know, they used to drive or they still do, you know, drive furniture around 116 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:27.919 the country. I'm not doing that. I end up driving these drums up and down 117 00:07:27.919 --> 00:07:31.585 motorways, you know, nearly going out. I I mean, I could swap 118 00:07:31.585 --> 00:07:35.125 stories with them about how I was falling asleep at the wheel. 119 00:07:35.425 --> 00:07:39.199 I was meant to be jetting around the world, you know, 120 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:42.800 with, nothing but some songs in my head 121 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:45.220 teaching people vocal harmony. So, 122 00:07:47.125 --> 00:07:48.985 yeah, it's it's been a disaster. 123 00:07:52.325 --> 00:07:55.889 So do you think that people kind of labelling you as the 124 00:07:55.889 --> 00:07:59.729 trades person because you were the lugger? Because that's one of the 125 00:07:59.729 --> 00:08:03.535 inevitable things when you're the one that's setting up the kit, doing all this. You 126 00:08:03.535 --> 00:08:07.135 you it's almost like this seeing you as the as the hired help rather than 127 00:08:07.135 --> 00:08:10.975 the the main cause, aren't they? Yeah. I mean, there there is, 128 00:08:11.375 --> 00:08:15.199 there's an element of, you know, kind 129 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:18.720 of prophecy in it, that what you're trying to run away 130 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:21.860 from just follows you around. And like I say, 131 00:08:23.415 --> 00:08:25.835 when I don't try, then, 132 00:08:27.095 --> 00:08:30.854 I just connect with people anyway, but I've kinda burden myself 133 00:08:30.854 --> 00:08:32.890 with 300 drums. I mean, luckily, 134 00:08:35.270 --> 00:08:39.049 just before just before lockdown 135 00:08:39.669 --> 00:08:43.515 proper, I knew I was gonna be working online because 136 00:08:43.515 --> 00:08:47.275 I could see it coming. So I I unloaded the van and 137 00:08:47.275 --> 00:08:50.655 I've got it as a backdrop in my studio here, all the drums 138 00:08:50.940 --> 00:08:54.700 piled up. And everyone said, why don't you use green screen? But 3 days 139 00:08:54.700 --> 00:08:58.380 later, some vandals, who normally 140 00:08:58.380 --> 00:09:01.575 just knit mopeds and set them alight in the, 141 00:09:02.115 --> 00:09:05.635 local churchyard decided to nick 1 and set the light 142 00:09:05.635 --> 00:09:09.300 against our van. So it blew up in the 143 00:09:09.300 --> 00:09:12.660 middle of the night and we got these messages from the neighbors 144 00:09:12.660 --> 00:09:16.260 saying, there appears to be a van on fire. It looks a bit 145 00:09:16.260 --> 00:09:19.745 like yours. I hope you hope it's 146 00:09:19.745 --> 00:09:23.125 alright, but I'd taken all the drums out. So, 147 00:09:24.145 --> 00:09:27.949 maybe maybe I shouldn't have taken them out, come 148 00:09:27.949 --> 00:09:30.750 to think of it. I should have just left them in there, got an insurance 149 00:09:30.750 --> 00:09:34.514 money, and then said to people, it's vocal harmony from 150 00:09:34.514 --> 00:09:38.355 now on. Sorry. Damn. I 151 00:09:38.355 --> 00:09:39.735 thwarted my fate. 152 00:09:45.130 --> 00:09:48.490 Alright. Just talk about, you know, some of your life in general. You you've got 153 00:09:48.490 --> 00:09:52.115 a quite striking appearance and your look 154 00:09:52.255 --> 00:09:56.015 is very you. Do you find that that's ever led you 155 00:09:56.015 --> 00:09:59.310 to be judged or excluded or do you find the opposite? 156 00:10:00.650 --> 00:10:04.490 Well, yeah, both judged and 157 00:10:04.490 --> 00:10:08.275 excluded and included. I mean, the whole thing 158 00:10:08.275 --> 00:10:10.135 about anybody who's a rebel, 159 00:10:12.275 --> 00:10:15.895 or, you know, visually a rebel or they speak like a rebel, 160 00:10:16.370 --> 00:10:19.970 What they're really doing, is they are trying to 161 00:10:19.970 --> 00:10:22.389 move away from the mediocrity 162 00:10:23.504 --> 00:10:26.404 of normal life, which they would, 163 00:10:27.584 --> 00:10:30.564 you know, obviously not like. 164 00:10:31.780 --> 00:10:34.520 And there there's a small tribe of people you can 165 00:10:35.940 --> 00:10:39.400 join. It's why a lot of bands meet at art school. 166 00:10:39.694 --> 00:10:43.375 It's, you know, when I first went to art school in the foundation year, I 167 00:10:43.375 --> 00:10:46.815 was dismally, kinda 168 00:10:46.815 --> 00:10:50.310 disappointed because it was just like an extended 6th form. Now, 169 00:10:50.470 --> 00:10:54.310 I thought I was gonna be with Salvador Dali and 170 00:10:54.310 --> 00:10:57.935 people, you know, kind of budding surrealists or dada 171 00:10:57.935 --> 00:11:01.615 people, but they're all people going, yeah. I quite like, 172 00:11:01.935 --> 00:11:05.779 Magritte. I'm gonna do my version. So but then when I 173 00:11:05.779 --> 00:11:09.380 got to Leeds, Leeds Polytechnic is where I met Green and we formed 174 00:11:09.380 --> 00:11:12.965 Script League. That that now they 175 00:11:12.965 --> 00:11:16.485 they really were proper artists. You know, a lot of us, 176 00:11:17.045 --> 00:11:20.645 we are a whole kind of cohort of 177 00:11:20.645 --> 00:11:24.310 rebels. Part partly because it was the freest course in the 178 00:11:24.310 --> 00:11:27.910 country. It was just like big warehouse and you had to 179 00:11:27.910 --> 00:11:31.735 fight for space, with the 2nd 3rd 180 00:11:31.735 --> 00:11:35.495 years. And so it was, it was a real kind 181 00:11:35.495 --> 00:11:39.310 of growing up. All the tutors weren't interested enough. They just 182 00:11:39.310 --> 00:11:43.069 wanted to do their own work, except maybe someone like Jeff Nuttall 183 00:11:43.069 --> 00:11:46.895 who's a situationist. He's dead now, but a lovely guy. 184 00:11:47.515 --> 00:11:51.195 And he would just come around and challenge us sometimes. Jo that's rubbish. That's 185 00:11:51.195 --> 00:11:54.090 brilliant. Publish it. Why are you doing that? 186 00:11:55.850 --> 00:11:59.370 So, yeah, we grew up fast there. And also 187 00:11:59.370 --> 00:12:02.944 nobody, nobody 188 00:12:02.944 --> 00:12:06.704 encouraged us to say, well, it's Monday. What are you 189 00:12:06.704 --> 00:12:10.540 gonna do this week? I mean, that wouldn't occur to them. So we 190 00:12:10.540 --> 00:12:14.380 had we had to say, it's Monday. What am I gonna do this week? 191 00:12:14.380 --> 00:12:17.680 I've got all these resources. Because in those days, 192 00:12:18.380 --> 00:12:21.725 you could you could get, money to do 193 00:12:21.785 --> 00:12:25.625 crazy things from the college itself. We we got grants 194 00:12:25.625 --> 00:12:28.985 from the government. We got our rent paid. We got, you know, 195 00:12:28.985 --> 00:12:32.649 so we were really free. I mean, we didn't know how 196 00:12:32.649 --> 00:12:36.190 lucky we were. There was just a point in history 197 00:12:36.970 --> 00:12:40.384 when that was encouraged, you know, kind of creativity 198 00:12:40.605 --> 00:12:44.285 was really encouraged. And nobody said, What are you gonna do with this 199 00:12:44.285 --> 00:12:48.020 when you leave? They just said, go and 200 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:51.120 influence, you know, be an influence in the world. Be a good influence whether you're 201 00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:53.139 a sculptor, painter, performer. 202 00:12:54.855 --> 00:12:58.455 You know, it was a it was a different time. We can believe it. 203 00:12:58.695 --> 00:13:02.455 It's probably only 10 years after we left art school. The, the 204 00:13:02.455 --> 00:13:06.000 Royal College was saying, we're gearing ourselves to what 205 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:09.680 industry needs. And we're looking, what? How can you call 206 00:13:09.680 --> 00:13:11.060 yourself an art school? 207 00:13:17.055 --> 00:13:20.675 I mean, picking up on something you just said there, which I find really, really 208 00:13:21.199 --> 00:13:22.319 resonates is this, 209 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:28.420 you know, you basically said you can't keep everybody happy, you can't please everybody. 210 00:13:28.959 --> 00:13:32.585 And it always resonates for me where it's better to 211 00:13:32.585 --> 00:13:36.025 engage 1 person than to have a 100 followers who aren't 212 00:13:36.025 --> 00:13:39.405 engaged. It's that meaningful connection that you want. 213 00:13:40.570 --> 00:13:44.410 So motivating and engaging your tribe, your cohort, whatever resonates with 214 00:13:44.410 --> 00:13:47.675 you is actually far better than trying to keep everybody happy because if you keep 215 00:13:47.675 --> 00:13:51.515 everybody happy, nobody's happy in my experience. At least you're better off with half 216 00:13:51.515 --> 00:13:55.275 the world loving you. Yeah. Well, half. I 217 00:13:55.275 --> 00:13:59.070 mean, I've, I said to my wife who who 218 00:13:59.070 --> 00:14:02.910 thinks sometimes I'm on social media too much. I said, 219 00:14:02.910 --> 00:14:06.425 well, look, I, I am ridiculously 220 00:14:06.725 --> 00:14:10.565 expensive. I I need to engage those people who are 221 00:14:10.565 --> 00:14:14.360 gonna pay, and they don't all know about me, so I 222 00:14:14.360 --> 00:14:18.140 will just tell the whole world what I'm doing all the time. 99% 223 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:21.735 of people will hate me. 1% will love me. Nought point nought 224 00:14:21.894 --> 00:14:25.495 point naught point 1 percent will employ me, but they'll pay me so 225 00:14:25.495 --> 00:14:29.334 much, that, it'll get us through the year just 226 00:14:29.334 --> 00:14:33.180 fine. And Jo, yeah, and and at first, I wanted 227 00:14:33.180 --> 00:14:36.860 everybody to love me when I was a kid, but, man, is that, you 228 00:14:36.860 --> 00:14:38.800 know, that that 229 00:14:40.505 --> 00:14:43.485 that's a fool's, what is it? 230 00:14:44.665 --> 00:14:48.450 Fools' fools game. Aaron, yeah. People do it. 231 00:14:48.530 --> 00:14:51.910 Fool's game. Yeah. It's not winnable game, isn't it? You It's not winnable game. 232 00:14:52.130 --> 00:14:55.510 Yeah. It and, advertising will 233 00:14:55.730 --> 00:14:59.395 suggest you can do it if you buy this product or, 234 00:14:59.395 --> 00:15:03.154 or buy into this brand or you get this and you get that and 235 00:15:03.154 --> 00:15:06.870 you get that. And then everyone gets to 35, 40. 236 00:15:06.870 --> 00:15:10.230 They're absolutely exhausted, and nobody cared 237 00:15:10.230 --> 00:15:11.450 anyway. You know? 238 00:15:15.085 --> 00:15:18.125 Yeah. I think one of the things I hear a lot of people talk about 239 00:15:18.125 --> 00:15:21.965 in the inclusion world is that this this deadlock 240 00:15:21.965 --> 00:15:25.710 of feeling like you have to include everybody, how to include everybody 241 00:15:25.710 --> 00:15:29.310 in this. And I think in order to break that down, you have to 242 00:15:29.310 --> 00:15:32.995 recognize that not everybody it can be included. 243 00:15:33.135 --> 00:15:36.894 And as long as you're fair, you're respectful, you're giving 244 00:15:36.894 --> 00:15:40.435 people equality of opportunity and you're giving people dignity 245 00:15:40.890 --> 00:15:44.490 then there isn't really a lot you can you can do fair than that. 246 00:15:44.490 --> 00:15:47.770 And some people may not be suitable. They may not have the capability, may not 247 00:15:47.770 --> 00:15:51.525 have the interest. And I I I say it's perfectly 248 00:15:51.525 --> 00:15:54.585 valid for a brand to say, I cater for 249 00:15:55.205 --> 00:15:58.750 very thin affluent women in our sportswear line, and this 250 00:15:58.750 --> 00:16:01.790 product isn't for you. In the same way that when you're an artist, you you 251 00:16:01.790 --> 00:16:05.550 produce music or entertain, you know full well that not 252 00:16:05.550 --> 00:16:08.415 everybody is gonna be happy with that. And you go, well, fine. That doesn't matter. 253 00:16:08.415 --> 00:16:11.855 I've got I've got people who love me for what I am, and that's that's 254 00:16:11.855 --> 00:16:14.895 the authenticity side, isn't it? Yeah. And I think that, 255 00:16:16.540 --> 00:16:19.920 what you're describing is is a kind of utopia 256 00:16:20.140 --> 00:16:23.980 where, the brand that caters for 257 00:16:23.980 --> 00:16:26.985 the thin, affluent white people, 258 00:16:30.325 --> 00:16:33.785 is kind of seen as such as that is a very small 259 00:16:33.845 --> 00:16:37.650 minority. And the rest of you were doing your clothes over 260 00:16:37.650 --> 00:16:41.270 here, your style over there, and there's no judgment between them. 261 00:16:41.490 --> 00:16:43.990 However, it's set up differently 262 00:16:46.275 --> 00:16:49.495 and advertising probably understands 263 00:16:50.195 --> 00:16:53.415 psychology more than most. So it's 264 00:16:54.310 --> 00:16:56.730 the whole thing about FOMO is, 265 00:16:57.990 --> 00:17:01.695 has just got crazy now. So I mean, the it 266 00:17:02.335 --> 00:17:05.775 when when they started airbrushing photographs long 267 00:17:05.775 --> 00:17:09.234 before Photoshop, when they used to airbrush 268 00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:13.440 photographs with a real airbrush, you know, in a proper lap and it 269 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:17.119 would take hours, hours and hours to extend the model's legs 270 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:20.875 or bring their, hips in or something. Now, of course, everyone 271 00:17:20.875 --> 00:17:24.234 can do it on their phones, but they spend a lot of 272 00:17:24.234 --> 00:17:27.409 money doing that. And in a deliberate 273 00:17:28.029 --> 00:17:31.250 way to exclude people, but 274 00:17:31.390 --> 00:17:34.765 say, however, you won't feel 275 00:17:34.765 --> 00:17:38.445 excluded if you buy this product or you get on this 276 00:17:38.445 --> 00:17:42.284 diet or you follow this plan or you so so it's all, 277 00:17:44.269 --> 00:17:48.029 I mean, the the whole of western culture is based on 278 00:17:48.029 --> 00:17:51.490 exclusion, deliberately, say, can sellers, products 279 00:17:51.815 --> 00:17:55.495 and division, divide and rule. So it to 280 00:17:55.495 --> 00:17:59.174 be a rebel and why people end 281 00:17:59.174 --> 00:18:02.780 up in art schools or communes or bands 282 00:18:02.780 --> 00:18:06.620 or gangs even. You know? It's so it's to try and get away 283 00:18:06.620 --> 00:18:10.455 from that, manipulation. Say, no. 284 00:18:10.455 --> 00:18:14.215 We're setting up a alternative camp over here. But the trust trouble 285 00:18:14.215 --> 00:18:16.980 is, as Jamie Will talks about this, 286 00:18:17.940 --> 00:18:21.299 in a much more eloquent way than I do, he says there's 4 287 00:18:21.299 --> 00:18:24.040 stages. There'll be Andy Warhol's factory 288 00:18:24.865 --> 00:18:28.625 proper, you know, or studio 54 proper. And then, and 289 00:18:28.625 --> 00:18:32.465 then it gets kinda watered down, and a few more people are allowed to get 290 00:18:32.465 --> 00:18:34.520 in. And then it becomes 291 00:18:35.860 --> 00:18:39.380 something where you can go, oh, I'm drinking out of a 292 00:18:39.380 --> 00:18:42.805 glass that Whitney Houston might have drunk out of on 293 00:18:42.805 --> 00:18:46.325 my stag night or my Hindu. And, 294 00:18:46.645 --> 00:18:50.345 and then it just becomes commercialized. So every rebel 295 00:18:51.350 --> 00:18:54.950 outpost becomes commercialized eventually, but you 296 00:18:54.950 --> 00:18:58.710 just then have to move on. The the the concern I 297 00:18:58.710 --> 00:19:01.245 have for this country, the UK, 298 00:19:02.664 --> 00:19:06.505 with, Brexit and the kind of shutting down 299 00:19:06.505 --> 00:19:10.030 of funding for a lot of projects, both science and art 300 00:19:10.030 --> 00:19:13.250 projects because we can't get, European funding anymore, 301 00:19:13.710 --> 00:19:17.175 is that the more sensitive rebels 302 00:19:17.395 --> 00:19:21.075 who would need or the more sensitive artists, I'll stop 303 00:19:21.075 --> 00:19:24.700 calling them rebels, creatives, who 304 00:19:24.700 --> 00:19:28.380 would need, the support of a group and the 305 00:19:28.380 --> 00:19:31.485 support of a group that had maybe premises 306 00:19:32.924 --> 00:19:36.605 kind of some kind of infrastructure that you could join with all 307 00:19:36.605 --> 00:19:38.465 those being destroyed. So, 308 00:19:40.285 --> 00:19:44.090 you know, like, kind of local theaters can be sold off 309 00:19:44.090 --> 00:19:47.770 to become luxury flats. I I I'm 310 00:19:47.770 --> 00:19:50.785 completely neutral here, politically. 311 00:19:51.485 --> 00:19:55.165 But, so that's gonna happen. It's gonna happen because 312 00:19:55.165 --> 00:19:58.675 of Brexit. It's be it's gonna happen because of COVID. Jo, 313 00:19:59.810 --> 00:20:03.270 consequently, people who would have benefited 314 00:20:03.650 --> 00:20:07.394 from those local resources, arts resources, are 315 00:20:07.394 --> 00:20:11.075 gonna have a harder time now. I'm kinda lucky. I'd I've built some 316 00:20:11.075 --> 00:20:14.830 resilience. I've learned some CBT techniques. 317 00:20:16.090 --> 00:20:18.590 I I have my kinda gang, 318 00:20:19.690 --> 00:20:23.035 and, I'm recognized as such, but it's taken 319 00:20:23.495 --> 00:20:27.015 decades for me to get to that position. I feel really sorry 320 00:20:27.015 --> 00:20:30.475 for for young people who are coming through, and, 321 00:20:31.630 --> 00:20:35.390 there isn't really a lot to support them. As I said, you know, we 322 00:20:35.390 --> 00:20:38.750 we got grants that we never had to pay back, and that and that was 323 00:20:38.750 --> 00:20:42.545 hard enough. But to, I don't know 324 00:20:42.545 --> 00:20:46.385 how the, the arts in this country are gonna survive. I I think the 325 00:20:46.385 --> 00:20:47.845 spirit will survive, but 326 00:20:52.450 --> 00:20:55.990 Yeah. I mean, you're saying that that you've you've got an inner resilience. 327 00:20:57.185 --> 00:21:00.865 How did you find that? Was it something that was always there or you really 328 00:21:00.865 --> 00:21:04.625 had to sort of use these CBD techniques or use other techniques to 329 00:21:04.625 --> 00:21:08.110 develop it or were you always able to rest back on it because you knew 330 00:21:08.110 --> 00:21:09.410 it was there under the covers? 331 00:21:11.870 --> 00:21:15.650 I think I had to have 3 nervous 332 00:21:16.255 --> 00:21:20.095 breakdowns, which kind of 333 00:21:20.095 --> 00:21:23.770 relied on being depressed for a year each 334 00:21:23.770 --> 00:21:27.230 time. These were about 10 years apart. And, 335 00:21:28.650 --> 00:21:32.090 at the bottom of each, I mean, you do hit the bottom there. 336 00:21:32.090 --> 00:21:35.725 Anybody's been that low knows you do hit the bottom 337 00:21:35.725 --> 00:21:38.925 because if you don't, you never come back. So and at, 338 00:21:40.180 --> 00:21:44.020 hitting the bottom of this kind of, there's a 339 00:21:44.020 --> 00:21:47.780 kind of you sense something. It's terrible. It's 340 00:21:47.780 --> 00:21:51.365 dark. You never think you're coming back. But I 341 00:21:51.365 --> 00:21:55.044 always had this thing and it was about harmony and it 342 00:21:55.044 --> 00:21:57.705 was about the groove. It was about rhythm. 343 00:21:59.190 --> 00:22:02.710 There was nothing else there. And as I 344 00:22:02.710 --> 00:22:04.090 came back, 345 00:22:06.325 --> 00:22:10.085 because that had been the thing that was there, it kind 346 00:22:10.085 --> 00:22:13.605 of expanded a bit more each time I came back. Jo, 347 00:22:15.340 --> 00:22:18.400 so any other lies, nonsense, 348 00:22:18.700 --> 00:22:22.540 political shenanigans, da da da, it all just sort became background 349 00:22:22.540 --> 00:22:25.955 noise to the groove and harmony. So 350 00:22:26.575 --> 00:22:30.335 so now I know I mean, who knows? I'd I've 351 00:22:30.335 --> 00:22:34.020 learned a lot of techniques, so I'll never get depressed again. But 352 00:22:35.280 --> 00:22:38.960 who knows? If if I do, it it's still 353 00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:42.774 gonna be there, you know, and, and I'll come back and I'll be 354 00:22:42.774 --> 00:22:46.294 older and I'll be wiser. And there'll be even less kind of 355 00:22:46.294 --> 00:22:49.975 detritus of what I should be doing or what I should be 356 00:22:49.975 --> 00:22:53.580 saying or who I should be talking to. And it will be me in the 357 00:22:53.580 --> 00:22:56.400 groove. And there's enough people who wanna 358 00:22:57.180 --> 00:23:00.985 play and dance and sing in harmony in 359 00:23:00.985 --> 00:23:03.645 the world. And there I'll be in the middle. 360 00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:12.400 Creating the groove and the harmony. Yeah. And, really? Yeah. Leading 361 00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:15.905 leading the leading the yeah. Absolutely. And I'll do it 362 00:23:15.905 --> 00:23:19.665 authentically, because it's now, you 363 00:23:19.665 --> 00:23:23.505 know, if it's it's almost like I'm a hologram of myself, bought 364 00:23:23.505 --> 00:23:27.010 of groove and harmony and there's lots of 365 00:23:27.010 --> 00:23:30.450 space and it flickers a bit 366 00:23:30.450 --> 00:23:34.105 sometimes, but that's all that's there. You know, when I 367 00:23:34.105 --> 00:23:37.945 first did it, there was a per there was a kind of scared person in 368 00:23:37.945 --> 00:23:41.510 the middle of going, oh, I hope everybody loves me because, I make them feel 369 00:23:41.510 --> 00:23:45.270 so good and their bodies are getting flooded with chemicals and they're all feel 370 00:23:45.270 --> 00:23:49.085 good chemicals. And, you know, so I so I knew the 371 00:23:49.085 --> 00:23:52.524 I knew the formula to look like the magician, but I really I I was 372 00:23:52.524 --> 00:23:55.825 the wizard that was, you know, now I'm just a wizard. 373 00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:00.700 You know, my own wizard. Don't 374 00:24:01.160 --> 00:24:04.925 don't look behind the curtain. Yeah. Well, well, there there is no curtain. You 375 00:24:05.005 --> 00:24:07.425 You know, that that's the thing. They they burn. 376 00:24:13.360 --> 00:24:17.040 When you're talking there about, yeah, hitting the right bottom, I Jo way you believe 377 00:24:17.040 --> 00:24:20.799 that I have been clinically depressed or to a 378 00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:23.845 point where that would be a diagnosis. But I've I've certainly 379 00:24:24.705 --> 00:24:28.305 bounced off the bottom of well I've as deep as I can get 380 00:24:28.305 --> 00:24:32.130 and several times in my life things have felt like the end 381 00:24:32.130 --> 00:24:35.889 of the world. 4 or 5 years ago I was going through a 382 00:24:35.889 --> 00:24:39.735 phase of my life where I couldn't get out of bed, I was breaking 383 00:24:39.735 --> 00:24:43.415 into tears all the time, I hadn't I couldn't plan more than 5 minutes ahead 384 00:24:43.415 --> 00:24:45.975 sort of thing. What do I wanna do later? Well, I don't know. I'm not 385 00:24:45.975 --> 00:24:48.940 sure what I wanna do now kind of thing. And it was Yeah. I remember 386 00:24:48.940 --> 00:24:52.700 lying in bed with the world just going Joanne and round in circles, there's no 387 00:24:52.700 --> 00:24:56.460 answers, no get off, there's no way of solving any problem. And I remember 388 00:24:56.460 --> 00:24:59.845 waking up one morning and just saying I am. I'm good 389 00:24:59.845 --> 00:25:03.605 enough. I'm valid. Who I am is okay. And I 390 00:25:03.605 --> 00:25:06.245 didn't need to answer all the questions that were going around in my head. I 391 00:25:06.245 --> 00:25:09.930 almost like said well, I'm not brushing them under the carpet, I'm just saying I 392 00:25:09.930 --> 00:25:13.690 don't need to answer that because I am. I don't justify that 393 00:25:13.690 --> 00:25:17.345 and that that got me out of bed. And I think 394 00:25:17.345 --> 00:25:21.184 that that experience 4 or 5 years ago, unlocked some 395 00:25:21.184 --> 00:25:24.780 of resilience, which I probably had all my life, but now I can fall back 396 00:25:24.780 --> 00:25:28.460 on it consciously knowing that it's there and it's there to 397 00:25:28.460 --> 00:25:32.295 save me if you like. And I I think when COVID hit last year, 398 00:25:32.915 --> 00:25:36.515 for me, it was just a case of, okay, have my 399 00:25:36.515 --> 00:25:40.320 cry, have my readjustment, have my pity party for a few days. 400 00:25:40.780 --> 00:25:44.460 And right, okay, what's my technique? My technique is going, well, I've done this 401 00:25:44.460 --> 00:25:47.924