WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.174 --> 00:00:10.934 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the 2 00:00:10.934 --> 00:00:14.695 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have been interviewing a number 3 00:00:14.695 --> 00:00:18.180 of amazing people who are simply having a conversation around the subject of 4 00:00:18.180 --> 00:00:21.780 inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better 5 00:00:21.780 --> 00:00:25.615 place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then 6 00:00:25.615 --> 00:00:27.555 please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 7 00:00:30.494 --> 00:00:34.126 That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot 8 00:00:34.127 --> 00:00:37.780 uk. You better catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify 9 00:00:38.079 --> 00:00:41.679 and the usual places. So plug in the headphones, grab a 10 00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:45.425 decaf and let's get going. Today is 11 00:00:45.425 --> 00:00:48.945 episode 33 with the title, none of us have 12 00:00:48.945 --> 00:00:52.245 included fully in the world until all of us are. 13 00:00:52.660 --> 00:00:55.960 And I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by Stacey Hart. 14 00:00:56.500 --> 00:01:00.215 Stacey describes herself as someone who is a full time parent, sometime 15 00:01:00.215 --> 00:01:03.195 actor and volunteers for the Women's Equality Party. 16 00:01:04.055 --> 00:01:07.815 When I asked Stacey to describe her superpower, she said that she could 17 00:01:07.815 --> 00:01:11.509 talk to anyone. Hello, Stacey. Welcome to the 18 00:01:11.509 --> 00:01:15.350 show. Hello, Jo. It's really, really good to be here. But 19 00:01:15.350 --> 00:01:19.185 if you don't mind, I will not be grabbing anything decaf 20 00:01:19.185 --> 00:01:23.025 today. Going for the full strength, are 21 00:01:23.025 --> 00:01:25.320 you? I will be. Yes. 22 00:01:26.580 --> 00:01:30.340 Dark and strong. I know. Sometimes I feel like that, especially after a 23 00:01:30.340 --> 00:01:34.055 long hard day. Yeah. I'm not satisfied to tell the bag to get 24 00:01:34.055 --> 00:01:37.895 in for at least half an hour. I'm not really 25 00:01:37.895 --> 00:01:41.550 a tea drinker. I'm definitely a definitely a bean shaker if you 26 00:01:41.550 --> 00:01:44.990 like. Yeah, I like my beans. Yeah. I've I think 27 00:01:44.990 --> 00:01:48.510 I I was put off my tea, by my 28 00:01:48.510 --> 00:01:52.005 grandmother. She used it's back in, you know, this is back in the late 29 00:01:52.005 --> 00:01:55.445 sixties, early seventies. She used to make tea with loose 30 00:01:55.445 --> 00:01:59.260 leaf. And, I would always get to the bottom of the cup and 31 00:01:59.260 --> 00:02:02.220 I'd end up with a mouthful of tea leaves because she didn't strain it very 32 00:02:02.220 --> 00:02:05.825 well. So I think that that psychologically damaged me, the 33 00:02:05.825 --> 00:02:09.585 tea, and I can't think about tea now without a mouthful of tea leaves and 34 00:02:09.585 --> 00:02:13.409 it's it's just been so ingrained in me because it was every Sunday 35 00:02:13.409 --> 00:02:17.090 we went to grandma's house and we had to have to drink this mouthful 36 00:02:17.090 --> 00:02:19.510 of leaves all the time it was like a ritual. 37 00:02:21.075 --> 00:02:24.614 So now I'm definitely a bean coffee person and, yeah, 38 00:02:24.674 --> 00:02:28.355 and I I think I drink it decaf more than CAF at the moment 39 00:02:28.355 --> 00:02:31.299 just, purely because I think I drink too much of of it and it was 40 00:02:31.299 --> 00:02:35.060 probably causing me to have palpitations from time to time. Wow. 41 00:02:35.060 --> 00:02:38.579 Anyway, if we digress, we digress, we Jo off into 42 00:02:38.579 --> 00:02:42.395 being in leaf territory here. So tell me 43 00:02:43.495 --> 00:02:47.335 Stacy. When you said, in in the show notes, you you you you've used 44 00:02:47.335 --> 00:02:50.290 this phrase, none of us are included fully in the world until all of us 45 00:02:50.290 --> 00:02:53.110 are, and I love that. So tell me about that and your view. 46 00:02:54.130 --> 00:02:57.605 Well, in a lot of the work I do and a lot of the 47 00:02:57.605 --> 00:03:01.144 groups that I'm involved with, we say 48 00:03:01.284 --> 00:03:04.910 this phrase and, you know, people will have heard this. None of 49 00:03:04.910 --> 00:03:08.610 us are free until all of us are free. And 50 00:03:08.830 --> 00:03:12.635 to me, what that means is that, you know, when 51 00:03:12.635 --> 00:03:15.935 people who may be part of a group 52 00:03:16.315 --> 00:03:19.675 that, that that I am not a part of, you know, 53 00:03:20.235 --> 00:03:22.260 for example, let's say, 54 00:03:23.920 --> 00:03:27.520 black people, you know, I'm a white person. When those people are targeted for 55 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:31.355 violence on the basis of who they are or discriminated against because of who 56 00:03:31.355 --> 00:03:34.795 they are, that means that the same thing could happen to any one of us 57 00:03:34.795 --> 00:03:38.255 on the basis of any of our own characteristics. So 58 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:42.360 I fight for people that don't necessarily look like me or have the 59 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:46.120 same background as me because until all of us are free from the kind of 60 00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:49.185 discrimination that stems from 61 00:03:49.725 --> 00:03:53.325 not looking like or being like someone else or coming from the 62 00:03:53.325 --> 00:03:57.000 same place as someone else or living a different lifestyle, it 63 00:03:57.000 --> 00:04:00.300 means that none of us are really free. None of us are safe 64 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:05.084 from that kind of discrimination. So I think for me, 65 00:04:05.084 --> 00:04:08.845 the same applies to inclusion. If the world that 66 00:04:08.845 --> 00:04:12.629 I'm in doesn't include everyone, doesn't include, 67 00:04:13.170 --> 00:04:16.769 you know, people that look like me and don't look like me, people that live 68 00:04:16.769 --> 00:04:20.575 like me and don't live like me, people from all kinds of 69 00:04:20.575 --> 00:04:24.335 of of of backgrounds and walks of life and experiences, then it isn't the 70 00:04:24.335 --> 00:04:27.910 world. It isn't the world. It's it's a 71 00:04:27.910 --> 00:04:31.350 half a world or a bit of a world. And I don't I don't want 72 00:04:31.350 --> 00:04:34.070 to be a part of a half a world. I want to be a part 73 00:04:34.070 --> 00:04:37.764 of a fully rounded world that's representative of everyone 74 00:04:37.764 --> 00:04:41.444 and welcoming to all people because that's a world that's safe and 75 00:04:41.444 --> 00:04:44.940 happy and interesting and fair. Otherwise, it's just a bit crap, 76 00:04:44.940 --> 00:04:48.780 really. And that's so I feel like the the the same 77 00:04:48.780 --> 00:04:52.625 thing applies. Yeah. I completely agree. 78 00:04:52.625 --> 00:04:56.385 I mean when I got into this DNI space about 3 or 4 79 00:04:56.385 --> 00:05:00.155 years ago, I suddenly realized that it wasn't about me. You 80 00:05:00.155 --> 00:05:03.570 know, I launched into it with the primary 81 00:05:03.570 --> 00:05:06.930 objective of promoting trans awareness. I realized 82 00:05:06.930 --> 00:05:10.449 that I was just one person or one characteristic in a 83 00:05:10.449 --> 00:05:14.245 world where there are many people who are marginalized, discriminated against or denied 84 00:05:14.245 --> 00:05:18.085 opportunity for who they are and I realized I didn't want to be so 85 00:05:18.085 --> 00:05:21.790 self centered just to talk about myself. And I very 86 00:05:21.790 --> 00:05:24.670 similar to what you said none of us are included fully in the world till 87 00:05:24.670 --> 00:05:28.164 all of us are, I always say that I want the world to be inclusive 88 00:05:28.164 --> 00:05:31.604 for everyone because I am everyone. I am just a person as well. 89 00:05:31.604 --> 00:05:35.320 If everyone wins, I win. I think that's a great mantra and 90 00:05:35.320 --> 00:05:39.020 I often talk about this about 91 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:43.285 inclusion being holistic. We have to who isn't included, 92 00:05:43.665 --> 00:05:47.425 who chooses who's good enough, who's not good enough to be included. I think 93 00:05:47.425 --> 00:05:50.970 that's it's very powerful that you say that and I think you're completely right 94 00:05:50.970 --> 00:05:54.330 because there's another saying that, you can judge an 95 00:05:54.330 --> 00:05:57.850 organization or society by the way it treats the weakest or the 96 00:05:57.850 --> 00:06:01.635 less or the most marginalized people because that sets the 97 00:06:01.635 --> 00:06:04.995 tone. And if I let this 98 00:06:04.995 --> 00:06:08.730 propagate, will it be me next kind of approach? And, 99 00:06:08.730 --> 00:06:12.410 yeah, that's how genocides have been 100 00:06:12.410 --> 00:06:15.795 formed. You know, some some of the the wars of the world have been 101 00:06:15.795 --> 00:06:19.235 where it's incremental and it builds up and then suddenly the 102 00:06:20.810 --> 00:06:23.850 they're coming for everybody and that that's kind of what we wanna stop, isn't it? 103 00:06:23.850 --> 00:06:27.130 But, yeah, I I I completely agree and I think that's a that's a really 104 00:06:27.130 --> 00:06:30.165 really powerful message you you said there. Yeah. It it is 105 00:06:31.045 --> 00:06:34.745 that's that's why I don't understand, a lot of the time 106 00:06:35.045 --> 00:06:38.870 where, because if I do have a flaw, which I do, you know, like 107 00:06:38.870 --> 00:06:42.629 everyone have many, it's it's intolerance of the intolerant. 108 00:06:43.349 --> 00:06:46.629 And I sometimes find that I can't understand that that opposing point of view. And 109 00:06:46.629 --> 00:06:50.455 I think one of the reasons I can't understand it is because quite apart from 110 00:06:50.455 --> 00:06:53.915 the fact that it's just the right thing to do to include everybody, 111 00:06:54.135 --> 00:06:57.500 it's just the right thing to do. Put that 112 00:06:57.500 --> 00:07:01.180 aside and look at it from a purely self interest point of 113 00:07:01.180 --> 00:07:03.919 view. I mean, isn't it just more interesting 114 00:07:05.155 --> 00:07:08.835 and easier and more successful? Businesses certainly are more successful when they're 115 00:07:08.835 --> 00:07:12.435 more inclusive. You know, isn't isn't the 116 00:07:12.435 --> 00:07:16.080 art better and and the the conversations, aren't they better 117 00:07:16.080 --> 00:07:19.840 when people don't always look and sound like you? I mean, isn't 118 00:07:19.840 --> 00:07:23.265 it just a bit bloody boring otherwise? Do you know what I 119 00:07:23.265 --> 00:07:27.045 mean? And I like you, I kind of came into it, 120 00:07:28.785 --> 00:07:32.550 to to my work initially, from a sort 121 00:07:32.550 --> 00:07:36.070 of self interest, like to promote the rights of women. You know? I 122 00:07:36.070 --> 00:07:39.725 I I lead the Basingstoke branch of the Women's Equality Party. I set 123 00:07:39.725 --> 00:07:43.405 that branch up and and, and formed it. And and 124 00:07:43.405 --> 00:07:46.880 we're working now locally doing 125 00:07:46.880 --> 00:07:50.160 exactly what it says on the tin, working for for the rights of women. But 126 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:53.220 I'm also having come into the fight for equality, 127 00:07:54.880 --> 00:07:58.345 very much thinking that it's not just about me and 128 00:07:58.645 --> 00:08:01.945 it's about equality for everybody. And I'm included 129 00:08:02.325 --> 00:08:05.960 in within the Women's Equality Party. I'm part of the 130 00:08:05.960 --> 00:08:09.560 LGBTQI caucus. I am co 131 00:08:09.560 --> 00:08:12.860 lead of the Race Equality Caucus 132 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:16.665 Allies, which is the group of white people within 133 00:08:16.665 --> 00:08:20.445 the party who wants to be allies to the Race Equality 134 00:08:20.505 --> 00:08:24.110 Caucus, and and and set ourselves up to, 135 00:08:24.430 --> 00:08:27.490 to sort of learn and unpick our own biases and 136 00:08:27.949 --> 00:08:31.715 educate people that want to learn and do anti racist work. So it it 137 00:08:31.715 --> 00:08:35.475 truly is about everyone not just about 138 00:08:35.475 --> 00:08:39.315 women, you know. Interesting. I I'm just picking 139 00:08:39.315 --> 00:08:43.040 up on, you know, the being intolerant of intolerance, I use that 140 00:08:43.040 --> 00:08:46.800 saying at all as well and it's, you have to know what you 141 00:08:46.800 --> 00:08:50.475 stand for and you have to say what is what is acceptable, what isn't acceptable 142 00:08:50.475 --> 00:08:53.915 and then being tolerant of that. But where do you stand on when people talk 143 00:08:53.915 --> 00:08:57.435 about free speech and Jo platforming and turning people 144 00:08:57.435 --> 00:09:00.960 off, When is your tolerance or intolerance 145 00:09:01.100 --> 00:09:04.780 different to their intolerance? And, you know, we've got a recent incident 146 00:09:04.780 --> 00:09:08.475 where, a well known presenter on a morning show 147 00:09:08.475 --> 00:09:12.315 on ITV stormed off set, for 148 00:09:12.315 --> 00:09:16.130 expressing his views and some may 149 00:09:16.130 --> 00:09:19.890 say those views are intolerant of a certain 150 00:09:19.890 --> 00:09:23.270 group, other people applaud those free speech, 151 00:09:23.810 --> 00:09:27.515 say what he thinks type view. So where where do you think society should just 152 00:09:27.515 --> 00:09:31.195 stand on this because we can't silence people, but we can't allow 153 00:09:31.195 --> 00:09:34.655 everything to to be said, can we? No. We can't 154 00:09:35.690 --> 00:09:39.290 do either one of those things. And it is yeah. It is 155 00:09:39.290 --> 00:09:42.910 very much an ongoing conversation, 156 00:09:43.290 --> 00:09:45.995 isn't it? I think that 157 00:09:46.855 --> 00:09:50.475 there are in law fairly 158 00:09:51.650 --> 00:09:55.030 well laid out boundaries between 159 00:09:55.890 --> 00:09:59.590 the protection of freedom of speech and where that veers into 160 00:09:59.650 --> 00:10:02.765 hate speech. Now those laws aren't perfect. 161 00:10:03.545 --> 00:10:07.305 You know, misogyny, for example, is not yet classed 162 00:10:07.305 --> 00:10:10.990 as a hate crime and, you know, catcalling and 163 00:10:10.990 --> 00:10:14.750 bothering women on the streets because of their, you know, because they 164 00:10:14.750 --> 00:10:17.550 are women is is is not yet common. That needs to be, that needs to 165 00:10:17.550 --> 00:10:21.195 be fixed. But we, generally speaking, have a 166 00:10:21.195 --> 00:10:25.035 fairly kind of well known framework that 167 00:10:25.035 --> 00:10:28.880 says you can be unkind and 168 00:10:28.880 --> 00:10:32.560 not break the law, but you can't speak to 169 00:10:32.560 --> 00:10:35.460 someone in a hateful way because of a protected characteristic. 170 00:10:36.880 --> 00:10:40.625 And I think that the kind 171 00:10:40.625 --> 00:10:43.764 of culture war that is is going on at the moment 172 00:10:44.625 --> 00:10:48.440 is it's being 173 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:51.740 sort of propagated on on a lot of sides and a lot of fronts. 174 00:10:52.520 --> 00:10:56.105 But I don't think it's actually as much of a 175 00:10:56.105 --> 00:10:59.725 problem as a lot of the, 176 00:11:00.985 --> 00:11:04.830 shall we say, illy interests think it is. 177 00:11:04.970 --> 00:11:08.190 I hear a lot about cancel culture, and 178 00:11:08.410 --> 00:11:11.870 I don't believe that cancel culture 179 00:11:12.330 --> 00:11:15.745 really exists all that much. The presenter that you 180 00:11:15.745 --> 00:11:19.505 mentioned, for example, walked off of his own show. 181 00:11:19.505 --> 00:11:23.280 Nobody canceled him. Nobody marched him out of the studio. He was 182 00:11:23.280 --> 00:11:26.960 being criticized. He didn't like it. And he marched 183 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:30.560 off. And that was his choice. I hear 184 00:11:30.560 --> 00:11:34.185 people talking about and I'm not gonna name names because I don't 185 00:11:34.185 --> 00:11:37.945 like giving them, oxygen, frankly, but there 186 00:11:37.945 --> 00:11:41.485 are people that we've all seen out in the media and they're usually 187 00:11:42.650 --> 00:11:46.030 pale male and stale and they're complaining loudly and vociferously 188 00:11:46.890 --> 00:11:50.250 in broadsheet papers about how they are being 189 00:11:50.250 --> 00:11:51.790 cancelled and 190 00:11:53.835 --> 00:11:57.535 not apparently failing to see the irony that they're being given 191 00:11:57.675 --> 00:12:01.520 huge platforms all the time to say these things, to talk about how they're 192 00:12:01.520 --> 00:12:04.740 being canceled and to talk about how their rights are being trampled on. 193 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:08.884 Meanwhile, you know, the voices that we hear, the 194 00:12:08.884 --> 00:12:12.565 representation in our politics, the representation in 195 00:12:12.565 --> 00:12:16.324 our businesses, you know, the arts that we see on 196 00:12:16.324 --> 00:12:20.069 the television, these things are glacially slowly getting 197 00:12:20.069 --> 00:12:23.750 better, but they are overwhelmingly the same voices that we've always 198 00:12:23.750 --> 00:12:27.370 heard, the same class of people that we've always, 199 00:12:28.025 --> 00:12:31.245 you know, been been ruled by, 200 00:12:31.945 --> 00:12:35.785 they are overwhelmingly very, very, 201 00:12:35.785 --> 00:12:39.250 very, you know, meet the new boss same as the old boss, 202 00:12:40.190 --> 00:12:43.925 if you don't mind me quoting who. And, so I fail to 203 00:12:44.005 --> 00:12:47.845 see, you know, there are instances occasionally where you might 204 00:12:47.845 --> 00:12:51.605 get, I don't know, like a student union for 205 00:12:51.605 --> 00:12:55.089 example saying actually we're going to disinvite you from this 206 00:12:55.230 --> 00:12:58.529 speaking engagement because you've said something that we're not happy with. 207 00:12:59.149 --> 00:13:02.915 Well for starters if we're giving, you know, young 208 00:13:02.915 --> 00:13:06.295 people the freedom to speak 209 00:13:06.595 --> 00:13:09.760 and to hear who they want to hear from You know, 210 00:13:10.060 --> 00:13:13.820 nobody's entitled to a platform for their views. They're allowed to say those things, 211 00:13:13.820 --> 00:13:17.565 but they're not entitled to a stage. And are we saying 212 00:13:17.565 --> 00:13:20.685 that young people don't have the right to say, actually, I don't wanna listen to 213 00:13:20.685 --> 00:13:24.525 you because you were unkind about my friend over there and and the people that 214 00:13:24.525 --> 00:13:27.920 look like my friend over there. So I think I I think I wanna listen 215 00:13:27.920 --> 00:13:31.680 to someone else. That that is a right as well. You know, nobody 216 00:13:31.680 --> 00:13:35.355 has a right to a platform. A right to freedom of speech is not freedom 217 00:13:35.355 --> 00:13:39.195 to to be heard. And we're very, very, 218 00:13:39.195 --> 00:13:42.570 very overzealously worrying 219 00:13:43.350 --> 00:13:46.950 about, about these things. And I 220 00:13:46.950 --> 00:13:50.785 believe, and this is gonna be perhaps a little divisive and that's 221 00:13:50.785 --> 00:13:54.305 why I'm hedging around it perhaps. I believe that the people that are 222 00:13:54.305 --> 00:13:57.985 worrying about it the most are the people who are concerned that their 223 00:13:57.985 --> 00:14:01.570 kind of politics is becoming 224 00:14:01.570 --> 00:14:04.950 unattractive to the younger generation. And 225 00:14:05.330 --> 00:14:08.955 they are realizing that young people are waking up looking around and 226 00:14:08.955 --> 00:14:12.715 going, you have ruled everything for a long time 227 00:14:12.715 --> 00:14:16.155 and you are really quite unpleasant and you are not inclusive and 228 00:14:16.155 --> 00:14:20.000 this society is not equal. This economy is not working for 229 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:23.540 everybody, and I don't think we wanna hear from you right now. 230 00:14:24.185 --> 00:14:27.625 And the people that are shouting loudest about cancel 231 00:14:27.625 --> 00:14:31.385 culture are generally the people who are worried that they are going to 232 00:14:31.385 --> 00:14:34.900 be shut out of the future of politics because of that 233 00:14:34.900 --> 00:14:38.740 awakening and they are almost always also the people 234 00:14:38.740 --> 00:14:42.535 that have historically had the biggest platforms and they're worried about losing them. 235 00:14:44.454 --> 00:14:48.074 So, it's people with privilege what you're talking about. So 236 00:14:48.454 --> 00:14:52.010 whoever holds the privilege of society are 237 00:14:52.010 --> 00:14:55.850 pushing back. They're feeling under threat. They're feeling under attack. Yeah, 238 00:14:55.850 --> 00:14:59.525 the woke culture is trying to tear down the patriarchy, 239 00:15:00.145 --> 00:15:03.985 tear down colonialism, tear down white supremacy or 240 00:15:03.985 --> 00:15:06.785 whatever it may be and that's making people uncomfortable. Is that is that what you 241 00:15:06.785 --> 00:15:10.510 think? I do believe it is. Yeah. That is what I think. And, I 242 00:15:10.510 --> 00:15:13.570 mean, much like a lot of 243 00:15:15.334 --> 00:15:18.235 new movements and new vocabulary, 244 00:15:19.415 --> 00:15:23.040 you know, the word woke started out as a positive thing. It 245 00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:26.720 started in, you know, the black community as a way of describing 246 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:30.240 people who had their eyes open to the world around them and and 247 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:33.964 weren't blinded to their own privilege and if you were 248 00:15:34.025 --> 00:15:37.645 you know awake and aware of that privilege then you will work and 249 00:15:38.269 --> 00:15:42.110 like many words before it that started out as being a positive descriptor it 250 00:15:42.110 --> 00:15:45.170 got very very quickly co opted by those with privilege 251 00:15:46.255 --> 00:15:49.935 and turned into a sarcastic kind of, you 252 00:15:49.935 --> 00:15:53.500 know, demeaning thing to say about someone who was 253 00:15:54.060 --> 00:15:57.660 trying to be overly groovy about something. And I mean, what what is the opposite 254 00:15:57.660 --> 00:16:01.340 of woke? It is asleep. I don't wanna be asleep to my 255 00:16:01.340 --> 00:16:05.165 privilege. Joanne you call me what you like because of that and give a 256 00:16:05.165 --> 00:16:07.904 pinch of your A fine way of life. Yeah. 257 00:16:09.084 --> 00:16:12.209 I give a I don't give a rat's poop, yeah. 258 00:16:12.750 --> 00:16:16.269 Yeah. No I agree and I 259 00:16:16.269 --> 00:16:20.075 think I've probably heard the word woke a few times over the last 3 260 00:16:20.075 --> 00:16:23.535 or 4 years and I googled it, I went on Wikipedia and did some research 261 00:16:23.834 --> 00:16:27.370 on the origins of woke and I thought yeah, I want to be woke, I 262 00:16:27.370 --> 00:16:31.130 want to be awake, I want to check my privilege, I want to 263 00:16:31.130 --> 00:16:34.845 understand who I am. How can I understand anybody else necessarily 264 00:16:34.845 --> 00:16:38.385 who I am? And I think 265 00:16:39.405 --> 00:16:42.940 it's good to check your privilege and when someone calls you out for it, the 266 00:16:42.940 --> 00:16:46.700 reaction that most people have is oh no not me no I'm I'm 267 00:16:46.700 --> 00:16:50.480 yeah there's always this defeniveness and or people are worried about 268 00:16:50.834 --> 00:16:53.635 being called out for privilege. And I think sometimes you need to bathe in it 269 00:16:53.635 --> 00:16:57.315 and say, yeah, okay, I didn't see 270 00:16:57.315 --> 00:16:59.654 that. Wow, thank you. Yeah. 271 00:17:01.450 --> 00:17:04.750 Yeah. Yeah. I get it. Now tell me how 272 00:17:05.130 --> 00:17:08.650 that impacted you or let me let me process that. And I think many of 273 00:17:08.650 --> 00:17:12.365 us when we're challenged on our privilege, even if it's just the fact we 274 00:17:12.365 --> 00:17:16.204 speak English, the fact that we we could afford our weekly shopping bill 275 00:17:16.204 --> 00:17:20.039 whatever it may be, we we we say well 276 00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:22.599 but I've had a tough life as well is that me too or that what 277 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:26.414 aboutism that goes on isn't it? What about tree? And we try and defend our 278 00:17:26.414 --> 00:17:29.054 privilege by saying, well, I've had to work for a living, I've worked all these 279 00:17:29.054 --> 00:17:32.894 hours. And people often forget that they've had 280 00:17:32.894 --> 00:17:36.660 opportunity from birth. And I describe privilege as something 281 00:17:36.660 --> 00:17:39.820 a bit like a pension pot. If you're contributing into your pension pot from a 282 00:17:39.820 --> 00:17:43.554 very early age, it gets enormous by the time you retire. And for those 283 00:17:43.554 --> 00:17:47.035 who are born into privilege, that privileged pot starts 284 00:17:47.035 --> 00:17:50.395 accruing within seconds of birth or in fact, it's probably reloaded before you're 285 00:17:50.395 --> 00:17:53.790 born. Whereas people who acquire education throughout their 286 00:17:53.790 --> 00:17:57.390 life, they still got that hole in the bottom of their bucket which is 287 00:17:57.390 --> 00:18:01.165 dribbling out their personal capital. And they can 288 00:18:01.165 --> 00:18:03.905 never fill up quick enough, whereas other people have got this watertight 289 00:18:04.845 --> 00:18:08.480 container of privilege just keeps growing and growing and growing. And I think people 290 00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:12.080 often forget that they say they're self made or 291 00:18:12.080 --> 00:18:15.815 they've generated some themselves, but they've generated it on the understanding of that 292 00:18:15.815 --> 00:18:19.575 privilege. Whereas other people who have not had that 293 00:18:19.575 --> 00:18:23.380 fortune to be born into that world, always starting 10 paces 294 00:18:23.380 --> 00:18:26.600 behind, they're always playing catch up. And when they're 295 00:18:26.900 --> 00:18:30.335 saying that they've had to make it themselves, that they've had to do overcome all 296 00:18:30.335 --> 00:18:33.755 of those barriers as well. And I think we often forget that. And 297 00:18:34.375 --> 00:18:37.355 it's easier to it's easier to turn £1,000,000 into £2,000,000 298 00:18:38.380 --> 00:18:42.220 than tell £100 into £200. Yeah. And that's that's 299 00:18:42.220 --> 00:18:46.000 that's failing to the world, isn't it? It is. Absolutely. And, 300 00:18:46.540 --> 00:18:49.905 I think it is an awkward thing to realize, 301 00:18:50.445 --> 00:18:54.125 particularly when you come to the realization, perhaps a bit 302 00:18:54.125 --> 00:18:56.740 later in life, you know, and that that's fine. 303 00:18:57.760 --> 00:19:01.140 It's okay to be at any stage 304 00:19:01.520 --> 00:19:05.335 of your kind of personal journey of trying to unpack 305 00:19:05.335 --> 00:19:09.095 your own privilege. In, in the Race Equality Caucus Allies 306 00:19:09.095 --> 00:19:12.740 Group, the women's equality party, we talk a lot about how, 307 00:19:13.760 --> 00:19:17.360 it is uncomfortable, realizing the things that you've 308 00:19:17.360 --> 00:19:20.899 benefited from over the years. And these aren't things that were handed 309 00:19:21.265 --> 00:19:25.105 to you. No one's saying that, you know, you didn't work hard 310 00:19:25.105 --> 00:19:28.865 for them. But it's a bit like being, you know, walking down a 311 00:19:28.865 --> 00:19:32.529 corridor where you go through lots of sets of 312 00:19:32.529 --> 00:19:36.210 double doors that are auto open ones and they 313 00:19:36.370 --> 00:19:39.945 you reach it at a stride and and it just sort of opens in front 314 00:19:39.945 --> 00:19:43.465 of you. You know, you're still walking down the corridor. You're still putting the effort 315 00:19:43.465 --> 00:19:46.605 in. You know, your legs are still moving. Your muscles are still, you know, 316 00:19:47.370 --> 00:19:50.750 working and all that stuff. But if you look behind you, 317 00:19:51.049 --> 00:19:54.649 there are, you know, there are 318 00:19:54.649 --> 00:19:58.434 black people and brown people and LGBTQI people and disabled 319 00:19:58.495 --> 00:20:01.635 people and older people and working class people 320 00:20:01.934 --> 00:20:05.760 who who for whom those doors are not opening and they're having 321 00:20:05.760 --> 00:20:09.380 to sort of muscle their way through them. I mean, that's probably, 322 00:20:10.294 --> 00:20:13.815 you know, an analogy that I've picked up somewhere in Sudan. I don't 323 00:20:13.815 --> 00:20:16.695 know. I love it. As you were as you were saying it, I was thinking 324 00:20:16.695 --> 00:20:20.220 about traffic lights and some days you go for a drive 325 00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:24.360 and every traffic light is just green and what you just go home, you think 326 00:20:24.360 --> 00:20:28.105 wow, that was so easy. But there are other days where every traffic light 327 00:20:28.105 --> 00:20:31.225 is red, you have to change down gear, you have to stop, you're going, oh, 328 00:20:31.225 --> 00:20:34.345 here we go again. Yeah. You're pulling away in traffic and you just know you're 329 00:20:34.345 --> 00:20:37.720 gonna get caught by the next one, then the next one. Yeah. And just I'm 330 00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:41.320 sure everyone can relate to the fact that just to just to picture those two 331 00:20:41.320 --> 00:20:45.019 journeys how frustrating the red lights are. Absolutely. And how how 332 00:20:45.865 --> 00:20:49.065 free thinking the green ones are, and that's a great analogy. I love your the 333 00:20:49.065 --> 00:20:52.825 doors just open in front of you that you have to push or stop or 334 00:20:52.825 --> 00:20:56.510 unlock. And it is it is awkward when you get to a 335 00:20:56.510 --> 00:21:00.350 point and you might be in your, you know, you might be 336 00:21:00.350 --> 00:21:03.755 a a bright uni student or you might be in your thirties or forties 337 00:21:03.755 --> 00:21:07.195 or or later in life. And you come to that 338 00:21:07.195 --> 00:21:10.815 realization and you you look behind you and you see those barriers. And 339 00:21:11.020 --> 00:21:14.380 and it is awkward. We talk about that a lot in the race equality caucus. 340 00:21:14.380 --> 00:21:18.140 It is it's painful. You do 341 00:21:18.140 --> 00:21:21.414 sometimes the automatic reaction is is 342 00:21:22.034 --> 00:21:25.794 of a lot of people when when, you know, they're they're they're asked 343 00:21:25.794 --> 00:21:28.135 to unpack their privileges is defensiveness. 344 00:21:30.560 --> 00:21:34.320 And you can you can feel awfully bad about that. And what we 345 00:21:34.320 --> 00:21:37.845 always try and underline in the group is 346 00:21:37.845 --> 00:21:41.685 that, provided that once 347 00:21:41.685 --> 00:21:44.985 you have had this realization and you are aware of this, 348 00:21:45.600 --> 00:21:49.380 wherever you are when that comes, provided that you commit 349 00:21:49.760 --> 00:21:53.525 to continuing that learning and to not ignoring it 350 00:21:53.685 --> 00:21:55.945 and to actually working to, 351 00:21:57.445 --> 00:22:01.045 unpick those structures that make life so much 352 00:22:01.045 --> 00:22:04.840 harder for other people than it was for you, then, 353 00:22:04.840 --> 00:22:08.540 you know, give yourself a little bit of a pass because everyone's 354 00:22:08.600 --> 00:22:12.375 experience is different and no one is 355 00:22:12.755 --> 00:22:16.375 accusing you of anything unless you are refusing, 356 00:22:16.755 --> 00:22:20.340 once you realize you have it, to unpack that privilege and to 357 00:22:20.340 --> 00:22:23.780 and to share the wealth a little bit. If you're and a lot of people 358 00:22:23.780 --> 00:22:27.475 do that too, but, you know, don't get me wrong. There are a lot of 359 00:22:27.475 --> 00:22:30.995 the powers that be that do that too. And those people we can have a 360 00:22:30.995 --> 00:22:34.835 go at. But, you know, for those of us that are genuinely trying, for those 361 00:22:34.835 --> 00:22:38.340 people that are willing to do the work, generally 362 00:22:38.340 --> 00:22:41.940 speaking, no one's accusing you of anything and you just you don't need to be 363 00:22:41.940 --> 00:22:44.280 quite so defensive about it. 364 00:22:46.165 --> 00:22:49.925 But many people who come from minority 365 00:22:49.925 --> 00:22:53.765 backgrounds or not what you wouldn't consider having a 366 00:22:53.765 --> 00:22:57.450 great deal of privilege don't even know that these rooms 367 00:22:57.450 --> 00:23:01.230 or these opportunities or this access exists. 368 00:23:01.290 --> 00:23:04.995 This is not that being denied access to an opportunity. They 369 00:23:04.995 --> 00:23:08.135 don't even know the forum exists in which they can find that opportunity 370 00:23:08.675 --> 00:23:11.600 because often, I mean, there was a program on Doctor. Mitchell on BBC the other 371 00:23:11.600 --> 00:23:15.039 night about, PPE contracts. I have no judgment about 372 00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:18.775 whether it's right or wrong or whether the people who awarded them not were awarded 373 00:23:18.775 --> 00:23:22.375 them, but what it became clear was there's a whole load of people ideally 374 00:23:22.375 --> 00:23:25.815 placed in their view to be able to supply, but they didn't even know how 375 00:23:25.815 --> 00:23:29.420 they got on the list. Whereas other people who book were on the 376 00:23:29.420 --> 00:23:33.260 list because they knew someone. And that's often the difference when we talk about privilege, 377 00:23:33.260 --> 00:23:34.320 we talk about networking, 378 00:23:36.755 --> 00:23:40.515 old networks, be a member of a club, you hear about things, there's people 379 00:23:40.515 --> 00:23:43.950 you go to school with, you keep in touch with all your life, they're in 380 00:23:43.950 --> 00:23:47.230 positions of power, they hand things out to people they know. Whereas if you come 381 00:23:47.230 --> 00:23:50.965 from an environment where you don't have that access, you never know about those 382 00:23:50.965 --> 00:23:54.725 opportunities. You you you've got no clue they even exist, let alone how to ask 383 00:23:54.725 --> 00:23:58.325 for them. And that's where that keeps the divide active all the 384 00:23:58.325 --> 00:24:02.140 time, isn't it? It does. And I agree. And I think that that, 385 00:24:02.620 --> 00:24:06.160 sort of feeds back into what we were saying about that defensiveness. 386 00:24:07.235 --> 00:24:10.995 I think a lot of people, if you say, well, that's 387 00:24:10.995 --> 00:24:14.679 nice that you've achieved this thing, but, you know, you didn't have 388 00:24:14.679 --> 00:24:18.380 any barriers because of, you know, the fact that you're able-bodied 389 00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:21.799 or the color of your skin or whatever it might be. And you were able 390 00:24:21.799 --> 00:24:25.544 to to achieve that thing through hard work but without the additional barriers of this 391 00:24:25.544 --> 00:24:29.325 other person. That defensiveness is often 392 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:34.320 born of the fact that they have a belief in a 393 00:24:34.320 --> 00:24:38.080 meritocracy. And that's that's another side of it. It's not always 394 00:24:38.080 --> 00:24:41.885 purely selfishness. It's not always purely, you know, you're trying to take away 395 00:24:41.885 --> 00:24:45.565 this thing. And I feel I've earned it. It's that reaction I do believe for 396 00:24:45.565 --> 00:24:49.210 a lot of people is, is based in the fact that it is 397 00:24:49.210 --> 00:24:52.650 really quite painful to 398 00:24:52.650 --> 00:24:55.710 understand and appreciate that you don't live 399 00:24:56.345 --> 00:25:00.025 in the country, in the world that you thought you did. If you have a 400 00:25:00.025 --> 00:25:03.705 belief, in a meritocracy and then 401 00:25:03.705 --> 00:25:06.870