WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.835 --> 00:00:11.674 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the Inclusion 2 00:00:11.674 --> 00:00:15.355 Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number of amazing 3 00:00:15.355 --> 00:00:18.410 people and simply had a conversation around the subject of inclusion, 4 00:00:18.710 --> 00:00:22.410 belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. 5 00:00:22.710 --> 00:00:25.355 If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a 6 00:00:25.355 --> 00:00:26.494 line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 7 00:00:29.195 --> 00:00:32.890 That's s S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You can catch 8 00:00:32.890 --> 00:00:36.489 up with all of the previous shows on Itunes, Spotify and the usual 9 00:00:36.489 --> 00:00:40.110 places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf 10 00:00:40.475 --> 00:00:44.155 and let's get going. Today is episode 11 00:00:44.155 --> 00:00:47.980 34 with the title driving the message that 12 00:00:47.980 --> 00:00:51.740 inclusion is a cold nose business priority. And 13 00:00:51.740 --> 00:00:55.500 I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by a great friend, Neil 14 00:00:55.500 --> 00:00:59.125 Carberry. Neil describes himself as someone who is on a 15 00:00:59.125 --> 00:01:02.965 crusade for better workplaces and great work. When 16 00:01:02.965 --> 00:01:06.719 I asked Neil to describe his superpower, he said he can play 17 00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:10.560 the steel drum. I'm sure we'll find out more about that in a minute. So 18 00:01:10.560 --> 00:01:14.399 hello, Neil. Welcome to the show. Hello, Joanne. It's a real pleasure to 19 00:01:14.399 --> 00:01:17.985 join you. How are you doing? I'm doing really well. Really 20 00:01:17.985 --> 00:01:21.744 well. Lockwood. You can almost feel the end of lockdown coming. The 21 00:01:21.744 --> 00:01:25.104 vaccines all fall under way. So I think we're in a positive place in the 22 00:01:25.104 --> 00:01:28.850 world right now. Yeah. I have to admit that, I my main 23 00:01:28.850 --> 00:01:32.290 emotion last week was envy because my partner teaches in a 24 00:01:32.290 --> 00:01:35.805 college. And so they went back to work, and, 25 00:01:37.625 --> 00:01:41.130 my kids are back in school. And I'm still stuck in the room I've been 26 00:01:41.130 --> 00:01:44.850 in since since a year ago from this recording when we, when we moved out 27 00:01:44.850 --> 00:01:47.450 of the office. But it's not long to go now. We can see the light 28 00:01:47.450 --> 00:01:51.205 at the end of the tunnel. Yeah. Well, I'm jabbed up. I've had my 29 00:01:51.205 --> 00:01:54.725 AZ. I I have my, 24 hour of, 30 00:01:55.045 --> 00:01:58.130 feeling really, really lousy afterwards, I think which many people have. 31 00:01:59.170 --> 00:02:02.369 Popped up by paracetamol and a couple of hot cups of coffee and Netflix. I 32 00:02:02.369 --> 00:02:06.015 was fine 24 hours later. So yeah, it's I think I feel 33 00:02:06.015 --> 00:02:09.555 well on my way and hopefully the nation will get going soon. Absolutely. 34 00:02:09.775 --> 00:02:13.075 Absolutely. So Neil, tell me, 35 00:02:13.690 --> 00:02:17.530 why do you believe that inclusion should or is a cold nose 36 00:02:17.530 --> 00:02:21.230 business priority? What do we need to do to keep driving that home? 37 00:02:21.530 --> 00:02:24.935 So cards on table. Right? 38 00:02:25.715 --> 00:02:29.175 I work for a business organization, and it's the second business organization 39 00:02:29.635 --> 00:02:32.055 I've worked for. I'm a capitalist. I'm a cold nosed 40 00:02:33.390 --> 00:02:37.150 and proud of it. And, you know, often, when you talk about 41 00:02:37.150 --> 00:02:40.510 inclusion, priorities of inclusion and 42 00:02:40.510 --> 00:02:44.185 diversity have have sometimes been seen as of the 43 00:02:44.185 --> 00:02:47.385 political left in some way associated with, 44 00:02:48.425 --> 00:02:51.970 with, different forms of economic organization. I think 45 00:02:52.590 --> 00:02:56.430 if you look at our society, I think what 46 00:02:56.430 --> 00:03:00.105 all businesses need to understand is that we operate. Your business 47 00:03:00.105 --> 00:03:02.525 and society are not separate, they operate together. 48 00:03:03.864 --> 00:03:07.650 And business in many ways has a, a license 49 00:03:07.709 --> 00:03:10.450 to operate from the society in which it exists. 50 00:03:11.310 --> 00:03:15.010 So from a from a a business leader's 51 00:03:15.150 --> 00:03:18.355 perspective, you have to reflect 52 00:03:18.655 --> 00:03:22.334 and serve the society in which you operate. 53 00:03:22.334 --> 00:03:26.110 So that reason number 1 is that your custom base, 54 00:03:26.110 --> 00:03:28.930 your employee bay base is more, 55 00:03:29.950 --> 00:03:33.170 is more diverse than ever. Reason number 2 56 00:03:33.885 --> 00:03:37.645 is we know that people perform at work when they are 57 00:03:37.645 --> 00:03:41.325 able to bring them their whole selves there. So why 58 00:03:41.325 --> 00:03:44.560 would we choose in a cold hearted 59 00:03:45.100 --> 00:03:47.040 not cold hearted, cold nosed, 60 00:03:48.700 --> 00:03:52.060 business perspective to put people in situations where they are less 61 00:03:52.060 --> 00:03:55.265 productive than they might otherwise be. 62 00:03:55.725 --> 00:03:59.425 All of that speaks to a different form of capitalism. 63 00:04:00.045 --> 00:04:03.769 And I I think that we will see over 64 00:04:03.769 --> 00:04:07.209 the course of the recovery from the pandemic, this 65 00:04:07.209 --> 00:04:10.865 concept of responsible capitalism become 66 00:04:10.865 --> 00:04:14.225 more and more common currency. I think you're beginning to see it. And 67 00:04:14.225 --> 00:04:18.065 that's a space in which businesses are able to 68 00:04:18.065 --> 00:04:21.800 articulate their purpose, more able to clearly 69 00:04:21.860 --> 00:04:25.620 set out why their success is beneficial, not only for their 70 00:04:25.620 --> 00:04:29.355 shareholder, but also for the wider society they serve. And that actually, 71 00:04:30.455 --> 00:04:34.235 their shareholder interest is in serving that wider 72 00:04:34.775 --> 00:04:38.590 society well because that's where the longevity and the long 73 00:04:38.590 --> 00:04:42.430 termism of, business success comes from. So 74 00:04:42.430 --> 00:04:46.185 if you think about businesses right now, whether it's 75 00:04:46.185 --> 00:04:49.324 inclusion or it's climate impact 76 00:04:50.264 --> 00:04:54.025 or it's recovery from, from 77 00:04:54.025 --> 00:04:57.360 the pandemic, You know, the kind of commitment you've mentioned having, 78 00:04:57.580 --> 00:05:01.260 the AZ vaccine, the kind of commitment AZ made in terms of how 79 00:05:01.260 --> 00:05:04.985 that would be supplied at cost around the world. I think 80 00:05:04.985 --> 00:05:08.505 these are things which are redolent of a business 81 00:05:08.505 --> 00:05:12.285 community that needs to think more about the long term to remain competitive. 82 00:05:12.890 --> 00:05:16.730 And as you think about the long term to remain competitive a 83 00:05:16.730 --> 00:05:20.405 bit more, you set people and your people 84 00:05:20.465 --> 00:05:24.305 policies in a business in a different light. And I'm, you know, 85 00:05:24.305 --> 00:05:28.100 I have a habit of standing up in front of HR directors. I worked with 86 00:05:28.260 --> 00:05:32.020 big company HR directors for 15 years at the CBI. Standing 87 00:05:32.020 --> 00:05:35.380 up in front of big company HR directors and say, if people are your 88 00:05:35.380 --> 00:05:38.905 greatest assets, why do you hire them like you buy paper 89 00:05:38.905 --> 00:05:42.425 clips? Why do you manage them? Frankly, 90 00:05:42.425 --> 00:05:45.944 sometimes, like you manage your paper clips. I mean, I I I do not 91 00:05:45.944 --> 00:05:49.770 like, the phrase the the term human capital at all 92 00:05:49.770 --> 00:05:53.470 because you, you know, the Isle original founding declarations 93 00:05:53.610 --> 00:05:57.115 of the International Labour Organization are pretty clear that labor is not a commodity. 94 00:05:58.935 --> 00:06:02.775 People need to be managed in a different way. I 95 00:06:02.775 --> 00:06:06.380 come from a school of employee relations rather than 96 00:06:06.380 --> 00:06:09.980 human resources. Thinking about people coming to work from very different 97 00:06:09.980 --> 00:06:13.120 backgrounds with different things to achieve and the art is aligning 98 00:06:14.335 --> 00:06:16.835 what they want to achieve with what you want to achieve. 99 00:06:18.015 --> 00:06:21.640 That is fundamentally an inclusion message. It's a 100 00:06:21.640 --> 00:06:25.480 mainstream inclusion message. It's not about an individual strand. But I do 101 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:29.000 think that unless companies are thinking that 102 00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:32.275 way, they will progressively be less relevant. 103 00:06:33.055 --> 00:06:36.195 And it applies just as much to 104 00:06:38.890 --> 00:06:42.730 any member of the workforce as it does to anyone who's protected by one 105 00:06:42.730 --> 00:06:46.355 of the characteristics set out in the Equality Act. So for me, 106 00:06:46.355 --> 00:06:49.875 inclusion is is a critical business 107 00:06:49.875 --> 00:06:53.255 priority going forward. And the the main 108 00:06:53.315 --> 00:06:57.020 message that I share with business leaders that I talk to is don't leave it 109 00:06:57.020 --> 00:07:00.860 to your HR director. It's gotta be about how you do business, about how the 110 00:07:00.860 --> 00:07:04.515 line behaves. Now Antonio Hootersario at Lloyd's said that 111 00:07:04.515 --> 00:07:08.275 he started seeing a real difference in the hiring that they were doing when 112 00:07:08.275 --> 00:07:11.800 he stopped saying he wanted diverse and started throwing shortlist without 113 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:15.640 diversity back at the managers who put them up to him. And I think 114 00:07:15.640 --> 00:07:19.375 that piece around, this is a business priority. We need to behave 115 00:07:19.375 --> 00:07:23.134 like it's a business priority is a big message. We've set 116 00:07:23.134 --> 00:07:26.435 out just recently, at the REC where I work, 117 00:07:27.490 --> 00:07:31.010 the impact of doing recruitment well and in inclusive ways on 118 00:07:31.010 --> 00:07:34.150 productivity as well as an opportunity for individual people, 119 00:07:34.825 --> 00:07:38.145 through our new recruitment for recovery campaign. And I think we need 120 00:07:38.425 --> 00:07:41.945 you talk we talked in the intro about a crusade. I think this piece 121 00:07:41.945 --> 00:07:45.580 around good work and fulfilling work and 122 00:07:45.580 --> 00:07:49.340 productivity is not just about being nice to the employees, although 123 00:07:49.340 --> 00:07:53.155 that is an important byproduct. It's actually about having workplaces that are 124 00:07:53.155 --> 00:07:56.995 fundamentally productive because people are comfortable there to work 125 00:07:56.995 --> 00:08:00.650 in the ways that, are most effective for them and are bringing 126 00:08:00.650 --> 00:08:04.030 them their whole selves. You know? Yeah. I I've been 127 00:08:04.090 --> 00:08:07.875 privileged, for instance, to work with a lot of, truly talented 128 00:08:07.875 --> 00:08:11.235 gay colleagues over the years. And they have all been very clear with 129 00:08:11.235 --> 00:08:14.675 me that the day they didn't have to spend Monday morning worrying 130 00:08:14.675 --> 00:08:18.290 about, not slipping up on what they said about what they did at the 131 00:08:18.290 --> 00:08:21.970 weekend was liberating in more than just personal emotional 132 00:08:21.970 --> 00:08:25.525 sense. Yeah. I I I 133 00:08:26.085 --> 00:08:29.845 so much of what you're saying there is resonating with me completely. We 134 00:08:29.845 --> 00:08:33.530 know these facts. I mean, McKinsey have published these 135 00:08:33.530 --> 00:08:37.309 stats. You've only got a Google DNI stats and we all know that 136 00:08:37.450 --> 00:08:40.885 businesses are 19% more of this, 30% more of that. 137 00:08:41.365 --> 00:08:45.145 So this data has been around for many, many years now, and it's kind 138 00:08:45.285 --> 00:08:48.345 of a every DNI person chants these these statistics. 139 00:08:49.130 --> 00:08:52.250 But we're we're all well aware that the facts don't change people. You know, we 140 00:08:52.250 --> 00:08:55.690 know if we drive too far fast on the motorway, we shouldn't do that. But 141 00:08:55.690 --> 00:08:59.055 we all think we can get away with 75, 80, or a100. We know that 142 00:08:59.055 --> 00:09:02.575 red meat, we know that wine, we know that beer, we know that smoking isn't 143 00:09:02.575 --> 00:09:06.015 good for us yet. We still persist in doing these things even though we 144 00:09:06.015 --> 00:09:09.720 know the facts aren't changing. So what do you 145 00:09:09.720 --> 00:09:13.500 think what businesses and organizations can do to start 146 00:09:13.720 --> 00:09:17.535 moving from these stats and making it so that 147 00:09:17.535 --> 00:09:20.755 they really get their own ROI return on inclusion? 148 00:09:21.215 --> 00:09:24.270 What how do they wake up or become woke if you like? 149 00:09:24.910 --> 00:09:28.530 Oh, there there's a politically loaded term all 150 00:09:28.750 --> 00:09:32.430 of a all of a sudden, isn't it isn't it woke? I look. I 151 00:09:32.430 --> 00:09:36.215 think that there are a couple of things that are on my mind 152 00:09:36.215 --> 00:09:39.195 right now. One is, 153 00:09:41.950 --> 00:09:45.709 I think, being more cognizant of 154 00:09:45.709 --> 00:09:49.010 where you are now, which I think is very 155 00:09:49.915 --> 00:09:53.515 is very frightening for a lot of business 156 00:09:53.515 --> 00:09:56.895 leaders because it involves admitting that things might not be perfect, 157 00:09:58.420 --> 00:10:02.180 or might even not be good and stepping into a 158 00:10:02.180 --> 00:10:06.019 territory where you are fundamentally uncomfortable. I think one of the great things about 159 00:10:06.019 --> 00:10:09.185 being quite short term and looking at the sales figures and driving the short term 160 00:10:09.185 --> 00:10:12.944 performance of a business is that you always know where you 161 00:10:12.944 --> 00:10:14.725 stand because the numbers don't lie. 162 00:10:16.900 --> 00:10:20.740 The longer term stuff is more difficult because it 163 00:10:20.740 --> 00:10:23.560 rests on belief, purpose, direction, strategy, 164 00:10:26.125 --> 00:10:29.505 and a a real sense 165 00:10:29.565 --> 00:10:33.400 that you're putting 166 00:10:33.400 --> 00:10:37.080 more of your self into it. So I 167 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:40.835 think the thing that is changing is our understanding 168 00:10:41.055 --> 00:10:44.195 of leadership in businesses. I think they're kinda 169 00:10:44.415 --> 00:10:47.155 alpha very kind of 170 00:10:48.760 --> 00:10:52.380 numbers focused, almost impersonal 171 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:56.385 leadership style that has dominated, our 172 00:10:56.385 --> 00:11:00.145 thinking for maybe the last 20 or 30 years. I think 173 00:11:00.145 --> 00:11:03.985 there's a it is being gradually placed by a much more 174 00:11:03.985 --> 00:11:07.490 authentic approach. And that authentic approach is not 175 00:11:07.490 --> 00:11:11.330 unconcerned by the short term performance of the business. But I think 176 00:11:11.330 --> 00:11:14.995 it does allow for people to, act 177 00:11:14.995 --> 00:11:18.835 with more humanity. And as they act with more humanity in what 178 00:11:18.835 --> 00:11:22.435 they are doing, I think the big question that we 179 00:11:22.435 --> 00:11:26.270 ask ourselves, and you and I have discussed this before the recording, 180 00:11:27.450 --> 00:11:30.970 is how do we not just not be part of the problem as a 181 00:11:30.970 --> 00:11:34.504 leader, but how do we actively use our influence to make the 182 00:11:34.504 --> 00:11:38.105 problem go away? And that's difficult for 183 00:11:38.105 --> 00:11:39.324 corporates because, 184 00:11:42.330 --> 00:11:46.170 culture in any business is is difficult to to manage, 185 00:11:46.170 --> 00:11:49.995 but leaders are better equipped to manage it than most. And 186 00:11:49.995 --> 00:11:53.755 if so if you think about the debate after the Black Lives 187 00:11:53.755 --> 00:11:57.355 Matter, protest began following the 188 00:11:57.355 --> 00:12:01.080 killing of George Floyd last year. There was a big debate about 189 00:12:02.260 --> 00:12:06.035 how corporates can be not just not racist, but 190 00:12:06.035 --> 00:12:09.635 actively anti racist. And I think a lot of 191 00:12:09.635 --> 00:12:13.395 those same themes flow through to a lot of what many of 192 00:12:13.395 --> 00:12:16.650 us were feeling, you know, in with the recent news about Sarah Everock, 193 00:12:17.270 --> 00:12:20.630 which is it's not just enough you know, I I speak as 194 00:12:20.630 --> 00:12:24.045 a as a middle aged man. It's 195 00:12:24.045 --> 00:12:27.805 not just enough to be one of the good guys. It's actually 196 00:12:27.805 --> 00:12:31.264 more about how do we actively challenge 197 00:12:32.800 --> 00:12:36.180 the environments that allow harassment of, 198 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:39.380 women to happen. And I think those things, 199 00:12:42.065 --> 00:12:43.365 in lots of companies, 200 00:12:45.505 --> 00:12:49.265 even up until quite recently, would have felt quite, and 201 00:12:49.265 --> 00:12:53.030 inverted commas, right on, would have felt like, 202 00:12:53.030 --> 00:12:56.230 yeah. No. No. We're here to do our Jo, and our job is this. And 203 00:12:56.230 --> 00:12:59.590 I think the real art for people who care about this in 204 00:12:59.590 --> 00:13:02.774 corporate is to make the link 205 00:13:04.915 --> 00:13:08.595 to corporate reputation, which we know can be trashed in a second these 206 00:13:08.595 --> 00:13:12.130 days if something goes wrong, is to 207 00:13:12.130 --> 00:13:15.589 make the link to the what I said earlier about 208 00:13:16.050 --> 00:13:19.155 making sure that people can bring their whole selves to work. 209 00:13:20.595 --> 00:13:24.355 And it's to make the link to the fact that no one loses when 210 00:13:24.355 --> 00:13:27.509 we do this. Because I think that's 211 00:13:28.130 --> 00:13:31.509 the that's the thing that I I think often doesn't quite 212 00:13:31.649 --> 00:13:35.410 cut through. You know, flexible working is a great example of 213 00:13:35.410 --> 00:13:38.975 this. I'm a working dad. The 214 00:13:38.975 --> 00:13:42.814 flexible working revolution was brought about in its original 215 00:13:42.975 --> 00:13:46.700 in its in its beginnings. It was being done, 216 00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:50.600 in inverted commas, for working moms? Well, 217 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:54.235 maybe. But, actually, flexible working benefits everybody in the 218 00:13:54.235 --> 00:13:57.995 workforce if you get the structure right. And companies need to kind of think 219 00:13:57.995 --> 00:14:00.975 about how they do it and how they do it well and fairly. But 220 00:14:02.780 --> 00:14:06.620 that level of inclusion, because I 221 00:14:06.620 --> 00:14:10.380 think flexible working is a tool for inclusion of people who might not otherwise be 222 00:14:10.380 --> 00:14:13.985 working into the workforce, benefits 223 00:14:14.045 --> 00:14:17.645 everybody. Classic case post pandemic. We've now proved that 224 00:14:17.645 --> 00:14:21.360 everybody can work from home for a year, in lots 225 00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:25.060 of office based jobs. If this isn't transformational 226 00:14:25.839 --> 00:14:29.245 transformational for, Britain's disability 227 00:14:29.385 --> 00:14:33.145 employment rate, that will be shambolic. I mean, 228 00:14:33.145 --> 00:14:36.980 our disability if you look at our employment rates, our disability employment rate 229 00:14:36.980 --> 00:14:40.820 is actually much the worst. And a lot of it is about 230 00:14:40.820 --> 00:14:44.660 access to the workplace even though there are some pretty good government schemes 231 00:14:44.660 --> 00:14:47.615 to support, access to work out there. 232 00:14:48.315 --> 00:14:51.595 This should be a moment for us to say, well, here's an a new route 233 00:14:51.595 --> 00:14:55.290 to opening up disability employment. It's 234 00:14:55.290 --> 00:14:59.050 a whole slew of things there, I think, where if we 235 00:14:59.050 --> 00:15:02.110 get our people planning into our business planning 236 00:15:03.775 --> 00:15:07.615 and don't approach it as though we're thinking about human 237 00:15:07.615 --> 00:15:11.320 capital, we can open up some productivity 238 00:15:11.460 --> 00:15:15.140 upside. As I mentioned earlier, our recruitment and recovery reports are really 239 00:15:15.140 --> 00:15:18.365 clear that doing recruitment well opens up £7,700,000,000 240 00:15:20.105 --> 00:15:23.625 of, productivity upside every year as people start more 241 00:15:23.625 --> 00:15:27.350 engaged. Yeah. This isn't new stuff. I 242 00:15:27.350 --> 00:15:30.709 mean, Nita Clark and David McLeod were doing all that work about employee 243 00:15:30.709 --> 00:15:33.850 engagement, and its and its benefits 244 00:15:35.975 --> 00:15:39.334 well over a decade ago. And as you said, Joanne, the, 245 00:15:39.894 --> 00:15:43.014 it's about how we get cut through. I think cut through only comes at the 246 00:15:43.014 --> 00:15:46.740 center. And this moment of leadership change that's been driven 247 00:15:46.740 --> 00:15:50.580 by the pandemic is a huge opportunity. Yeah. 248 00:15:50.580 --> 00:15:54.225 Completely. I've got so many thoughts coming out of what you've just said there. 249 00:15:54.285 --> 00:15:57.965 Going back to almost at the beginning of what you're saying there, the the term 250 00:15:57.965 --> 00:16:01.005 woke, you're right, it has been kind of hijacked as a kind of a political 251 00:16:01.005 --> 00:16:04.730 statement. And someone drew attention the other day, the the 252 00:16:04.730 --> 00:16:08.270 opposite of awake or woke is asleep. 253 00:16:09.055 --> 00:16:12.815 So you're quite right when you're saying that what's happening is many businesses, if 254 00:16:12.815 --> 00:16:16.390 they're not careful, will be asleep on the watch. They won't 255 00:16:16.390 --> 00:16:19.770 realize that they're no longer becoming relevant. They their their 256 00:16:19.830 --> 00:16:23.430 reputation will suffer. So rather than seeing woke as being this 257 00:16:23.430 --> 00:16:26.975 political statement, think of it as being awakened or 258 00:16:27.515 --> 00:16:31.355 woken up to the idea that your business needs to have 259 00:16:31.355 --> 00:16:34.840 someone at the helm, not in their course, the trajectory, the 260 00:16:34.840 --> 00:16:38.220 velocity of how you're gonna get somewhere that includes their people 261 00:16:38.760 --> 00:16:42.595 and really engage with their people. And I think I see too many 262 00:16:43.214 --> 00:16:47.055 organizations still thinking about going straight back into the office. You 263 00:16:47.055 --> 00:16:50.035 know, as soon as whatever date it is, 12th April, 264 00:16:50.495 --> 00:16:54.180 where technically I think you can go back to the office straight away, I see 265 00:16:54.180 --> 00:16:57.699 many people just saying, well, I've been told we have to go back now. And 266 00:16:57.699 --> 00:17:01.289 there's been no consultation. A lot of a lot of business leaders in many 267 00:17:01.289 --> 00:17:03.485 companies are just saying, we've decided. 268 00:17:04.744 --> 00:17:08.505 Yeah. We've not consulted. We've not done our employee engagement survey. We've not done 269 00:17:08.505 --> 00:17:12.039 the pulse test. What do people think about this? I think they're missing a trick 270 00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:15.659 because there's a lot of anxiety out there because the workplace 271 00:17:16.519 --> 00:17:20.355 isn't gonna be the same. We may still have to commute with masks on. We 272 00:17:20.355 --> 00:17:24.035 may still have to Joanne space space everywhere. We might have to have 273 00:17:24.035 --> 00:17:27.560 plastic screens between desks, social distance in the office, not making each other cups of 274 00:17:27.560 --> 00:17:31.080 coffee for a while. All these kind of guidelines are gonna come out. So when 275 00:17:31.080 --> 00:17:33.560 we go back to the office, it won't be the same. We'll be sitting on 276 00:17:33.560 --> 00:17:37.015 buses or trains or transport feeling kind of 277 00:17:37.015 --> 00:17:40.775 vulnerable. Jo I don't think many employers are really thinking about 278 00:17:40.775 --> 00:17:44.620 this this human personal centric anxieties that are 279 00:17:44.620 --> 00:17:47.980 still going on. We've chucked everybody to home, said right now we need to get 280 00:17:47.980 --> 00:17:51.440 more back. I want to go back. We need to go back. So 281 00:17:51.755 --> 00:17:55.355 do you see that that divide happening? Some great 282 00:17:55.355 --> 00:17:58.860 companies really engaging, some not? Funnily enough, 283 00:17:59.500 --> 00:18:03.100 one of the calls I had earlier today before we jumped on, the 284 00:18:03.100 --> 00:18:06.160 pod, Joanne, was with a group of 285 00:18:07.305 --> 00:18:11.065 large companies in London and a group that KPMG has pulled together that I 286 00:18:11.065 --> 00:18:14.285 sit on thinking about the future of the London economy, which of course is 287 00:18:15.190 --> 00:18:18.330 fundamentally, bound up with, 288 00:18:18.870 --> 00:18:22.630 that question of how do we work. My 289 00:18:22.630 --> 00:18:26.455 take on that would be this. 290 00:18:26.455 --> 00:18:29.035 Different groups of the workforce will have different priorities. 291 00:18:30.295 --> 00:18:33.275 By and large, I think senior execs want to go back. 292 00:18:34.299 --> 00:18:37.340 By and large, I think younger workers want to go back as well. I mean, 293 00:18:37.340 --> 00:18:40.960 we've all done the call with someone who's sitting on their bed or 294 00:18:41.765 --> 00:18:45.205 using the ironing board as a desk. And 295 00:18:45.205 --> 00:18:48.860 that that's a challenge as is the kinda health and safety 296 00:18:48.860 --> 00:18:52.700 responsibilities that employers have for people who are working at home in in 297 00:18:52.700 --> 00:18:56.445 less than perfect, situations. After all, you know, 298 00:18:56.445 --> 00:18:58.465 we all started this a year ago, 299 00:19:00.045 --> 00:19:03.810 thinking 4, 8, 12 weeks. The the 300 00:19:03.810 --> 00:19:06.850 health and safety concerns are a bit different when you've been doing it for a 301 00:19:06.850 --> 00:19:10.310 year, and it's no longer really an emergency, measure. 302 00:19:11.615 --> 00:19:14.095 But in the middle, you've got a bunch of people who might not want to 303 00:19:14.095 --> 00:19:16.835 come into the office, as much. 304 00:19:18.015 --> 00:19:21.235 And that's a real challenge because it's not just about 305 00:19:22.080 --> 00:19:25.840 how do we accommodate people's needs or how do we make 306 00:19:25.840 --> 00:19:29.525 everyone work the same. It's about how do we balance the 2. 307 00:19:29.925 --> 00:19:33.285 You know, young workers want to come into the workplace because maybe they're living in 308 00:19:33.285 --> 00:19:36.825 a, a house share. They actually need to be in the work 309 00:19:36.965 --> 00:19:40.090 workplace. We've all advanced our career by being in the right place at the right 310 00:19:40.090 --> 00:19:43.929 time and getting the right advice from a colleague, who was who was 311 00:19:43.929 --> 00:19:47.610 around. Equally, that colleague might want to be at home a bit more. There's a 312 00:19:47.610 --> 00:19:51.365 whole framing of how people engage and that that we 313 00:19:51.365 --> 00:19:55.205 need to get right. And the parallel 314 00:19:55.365 --> 00:19:59.049 and this maybe is where those who are trying to drive 315 00:19:59.110 --> 00:20:02.950 an inclusion agenda, and 316 00:20:02.950 --> 00:20:06.695 I always have. You know, the reason I can play the 317 00:20:06.695 --> 00:20:10.055 steel drum is I went to a really right on state comprehensive in the 318 00:20:10.055 --> 00:20:13.655 eighties. And our music program was a little different to the one 319 00:20:13.655 --> 00:20:17.070 that, that maybe you would have got at one of England's 320 00:20:17.690 --> 00:20:21.050 great public schools. But the 321 00:20:21.530 --> 00:20:25.285 my driver's always been social and economic inclusion. You know, I'm 322 00:20:25.825 --> 00:20:29.365 from a working class background. I, you know, I I 323 00:20:29.585 --> 00:20:33.365 I worry about how we make sure people make 324 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:37.340 pathways through, into career and people's 325 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:41.340 people's, potential can be fulfilled. 326 00:20:42.120 --> 00:20:45.865 And I think when you think about that or 327 00:20:45.865 --> 00:20:49.304 any other form of inclusion that might fire up someone who's listening 328 00:20:49.304 --> 00:20:51.644 to, listening today, 329 00:20:53.419 --> 00:20:57.120 What have we learned about other people's experiences 330 00:20:57.260 --> 00:21:00.865 that aren't our own experiences? We listen, don't we? You know, I've spent a lot 331 00:21:00.865 --> 00:21:04.465 of time listening to my senior female colleagues at the 332 00:21:04.465 --> 00:21:08.005 REC over the last week about how the REC 333 00:21:08.065 --> 00:21:11.800 should Joanne, the the kind of stuff that's tumbled 334 00:21:11.800 --> 00:21:13.500 out the Sarah Everard case. 335 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:19.185 We've got 2 ears and one mouth. I think increasingly, 336 00:21:19.885 --> 00:21:23.645 leaders are appreciating you should use them in that ratio. So 337 00:21:23.645 --> 00:21:26.625 when it comes to opening up the office like you, 338 00:21:27.040 --> 00:21:30.800 suggested, Joanne, or indeed any kind 339 00:21:30.800 --> 00:21:34.400 of initiative in this space, you you 340 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:37.835 wouldn't you wouldn't go 341 00:21:37.835 --> 00:21:41.615 and, play football on just a random field. 342 00:21:42.315 --> 00:21:46.160 You'd want it the grass to be cut and you'd want to feel that 343 00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:49.679 the you'd want the goals in place and all of that. And there's something there 344 00:21:49.679 --> 00:21:53.165 in making sure that the action 345 00:21:53.225 --> 00:21:56.985 bias that many leaders have, this is an issue. 346 00:21:56.985 --> 00:21:59.885 We need to do something. This is something, so let's do it. 347 00:22:01.419 --> 00:22:04.559 Doesn't drive us off down the wrong path and all this stuff. 348 00:22:06.620 --> 00:22:10.455 Did you think leaders have learned a lot over the last year 349 00:22:10.515 --> 00:22:14.055 around well-being? You know, we 350 00:22:14.435 --> 00:22:17.630 we use the old phrase here, same storm, different bows, but, you know, well used 351 00:22:17.630 --> 00:22:21.389 over the last year. Each of these leaders have 352 00:22:21.389 --> 00:22:25.225 often been in their own boat and and and have realized 353 00:22:25.284 --> 00:22:29.044 their own mental health, their own family needs. Even if they're in a position of 354 00:22:29.044 --> 00:22:32.810 privilege, they've been touched in some way. And the impression I get is that 355 00:22:33.130 --> 00:22:36.430 everybody has become awakened 356 00:22:37.130 --> 00:22:39.950 to this need that maybe we didn't have a year ago. 357 00:22:41.015 --> 00:22:44.615 But what really worries me still is that we're gonna revert to all habits 358 00:22:44.615 --> 00:22:48.375 and there'll be this momentum to try and this 359 00:22:48.375 --> 00:22:50.715 has been a blip. Let's go back to as we were. 360 00:22:52.040 --> 00:22:55.580 And I also think there's there's a divide between some of the larger organizations, 361 00:22:55.960 --> 00:22:59.580 the organizations that have the infrastructure, the DNI, the momentum 362 00:22:59.965 --> 00:23:03.725 versus maybe the midsize or small organizations that don't have the 363 00:23:03.725 --> 00:23:07.245 budget sort of resources, the workplace workplace planning in 364 00:23:07.245 --> 00:23:10.040 place. And we'll end up seeing 2 tier, 365 00:23:10.900 --> 00:23:14.280 employee experience if we're not careful. So, 366 00:23:14.740 --> 00:23:18.335 I mean, I I'm less concerned actually on the 367 00:23:18.335 --> 00:23:22.175 size piece because I do think as you get smaller, you get more personal 368 00:23:22.175 --> 00:23:25.890 involvement from leaders. And I think that that adds to the humanity 369 00:23:26.030 --> 00:23:29.730 of the of the response. I think in many ways, 370 00:23:29.790 --> 00:23:33.284 it's more difficult for big firms to deliver 371 00:23:33.284 --> 00:23:37.065 consistency of experience. And in particular, 372 00:23:37.445 --> 00:23:40.505 thinking about how you support your first line managers 373 00:23:41.220 --> 00:23:44.820 to do what they know is right, but they might find sometimes the signals are 374 00:23:44.820 --> 00:23:48.345 pointing them in the opposite direction. So 375 00:23:48.345 --> 00:23:52.025 there's no I I think it's fair to say it's challenging in every size of 376 00:23:52.025 --> 00:23:55.705 businesses, and the challenges change. Capacity is clearly 377 00:23:55.705 --> 00:23:58.690 always an issue at the small end. 378 00:23:59.630 --> 00:24:03.470 For me, I think there is 379 00:24:03.470 --> 00:24:06.445 something in leaders 380 00:24:07.305 --> 00:24:10.985 having seen inside people's lives over the 381 00:24:10.985 --> 00:24:13.725 last year in a way that they haven't previously. You know? 382 00:24:15.180 --> 00:24:18.620 I talked to my team from from my house, and they're all in their 383 00:24:18.620 --> 00:24:22.240 houses. I think we've been powerfully 384 00:24:22.300 --> 00:24:25.345 aware as leaders in businesses 385 00:24:26.125 --> 00:24:29.825 of people's mental health more broadly and the bleed across from 386 00:24:30.125 --> 00:24:33.549 things that are happening in their home lives to their work life as well 387 00:24:33.549 --> 00:24:37.389 as, as well as, vice versa. So there's 388 00:24:37.389 --> 00:24:38.769 a whole kind of 389 00:24:42.514 --> 00:24:46.274 potential moment of reset there. You're right, 390 00:24:46.274 --> 00:24:49.654 though. The risk is we just flick a switch and try to go back. 391 00:24:49.715 --> 00:24:53.300 Now let me be you know, I talked about being cold nosed earlier. 392 00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:57.440 We do need to go back to a certain extent. The economy is still quite 393 00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:01.245 significantly smaller than it was in February 2020. We need to recover that 394 00:25:01.245 --> 00:25:05.085 quickly. Not because, you know, the corporates 395 00:25:05.085 --> 00:25:08.669 need massive profits, but because those profits need to fund 396 00:25:08.669 --> 00:25:12.190 people's pensions, and we need people to be employed, and we need to be able 397 00:25:12.190 --> 00:25:15.470 to fund pay rises and all of the the kind of the good things that 398 00:25:15.470 --> 00:25:19.105 business does week to week and 399 00:25:19.105 --> 00:25:22.005 month to month for for people all over the country. 400 00:25:24.100 --> 00:25:27.559 But we've got choices in how we normalize and how we go back. 401 00:25:28.340 --> 00:25:31.705