WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.920 --> 00:00:05.700 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'll be your host 2 00:00:05.839 --> 00:00:09.645 for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I've interviewed 3 00:00:09.645 --> 00:00:13.405 a number of amazing people and simply had conversations around the subject 4 00:00:13.405 --> 00:00:17.070 of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a 5 00:00:17.070 --> 00:00:20.830 better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in 6 00:00:20.830 --> 00:00:23.950 the future, then please do drop me a line to 7 00:00:24.009 --> 00:00:25.105 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 8 00:00:28.285 --> 00:00:31.423 That'S-E-E change Happen dot co 9 00:00:31.424 --> 00:00:35.100 dot uk. You can catch up with all of the previous shows 10 00:00:35.100 --> 00:00:38.640 on Itunes, Spotify and the usual places. 11 00:00:39.704 --> 00:00:43.464 So plug in the headphones, grab a decaf, and let's 12 00:00:43.464 --> 00:00:46.984 get going. Today is episode 13 00:00:46.984 --> 00:00:50.210 35 with the title, empowering 14 00:00:50.510 --> 00:00:53.890 everybody to better share their gifts with the world. 15 00:00:54.510 --> 00:00:58.235 And I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by 16 00:00:58.235 --> 00:01:01.595 Penny Pullan. Penny describes herself as a 17 00:01:01.595 --> 00:01:05.295 speaker, author, facilitator, and mentor. 18 00:01:06.580 --> 00:01:10.260 And when I asked Penny to describe her superpower, she said, she 19 00:01:10.260 --> 00:01:13.480 makes workshops work, and that's a tongue twister. 20 00:01:14.795 --> 00:01:17.295 Hello, Penny. Welcome to the show. 21 00:01:18.315 --> 00:01:22.015 Hello, Joanne, and thank you so much for your introduction. It's really 22 00:01:22.110 --> 00:01:25.330 fun to be here and to be chatting away with you. 23 00:01:25.950 --> 00:01:29.710 Yeah. You asked me, you say that I 24 00:01:29.710 --> 00:01:33.455 make workshops work and yeah, I suppose 25 00:01:33.455 --> 00:01:36.755 I do that. And I've been doing that for about 20 years. 26 00:01:37.375 --> 00:01:41.155 I started off as a, project manager and program 27 00:01:41.215 --> 00:01:44.850 manager and was very interested in, you know, 28 00:01:44.850 --> 00:01:48.450 how do I really make these projects and programs as good as they 29 00:01:48.450 --> 00:01:51.955 possibly can be? And realized that actually it was all about people. 30 00:01:52.915 --> 00:01:56.455 I was just about getting that sorted and 31 00:01:56.515 --> 00:01:59.895 working out how to work with groups in person 32 00:02:00.675 --> 00:02:04.039 when something happened that 33 00:02:04.039 --> 00:02:05.659 shifted my whole world 34 00:02:07.799 --> 00:02:11.625 into virtual. About 19 years before everybody else, 35 00:02:12.185 --> 00:02:15.485 I was meant to be hosting a kickoff meeting 36 00:02:15.705 --> 00:02:19.465 for a big program. This is the first time I'd ever 37 00:02:19.465 --> 00:02:23.300 run a whole program, just me. And there are all these people coming 38 00:02:23.300 --> 00:02:27.080 from all over the world. We're going to spend 2 weeks in New York. 39 00:02:27.220 --> 00:02:30.845 What fun. Except the date on my ticket when I 40 00:02:30.845 --> 00:02:34.385 was flying out from Heathrow to Newark 41 00:02:35.325 --> 00:02:38.900 was 13th September 2,001. 42 00:02:42.480 --> 00:02:46.160 Now, yes, the listeners can't see, 43 00:02:46.160 --> 00:02:49.975 but you've just pulled a face and gone, Oh, because 44 00:02:49.975 --> 00:02:53.815 that's 2 days after 9:11. And oh boy, we weren't going 45 00:02:53.815 --> 00:02:57.540 anywhere. We were grounded for 3 months. So that 46 00:02:57.540 --> 00:03:00.980 program had to happen virtually a little bit like 47 00:03:00.980 --> 00:03:04.579 everything had to suddenly go virtual at the beginning of the 48 00:03:04.579 --> 00:03:08.245 lockdowns of 2020. So, yes, 49 00:03:08.245 --> 00:03:12.084 so that added in virtual to the mix because I still had 50 00:03:12.084 --> 00:03:15.390 to get this program done with quite ancient technology. 51 00:03:15.849 --> 00:03:19.370 It's much easier in a way now because we can see each 52 00:03:19.370 --> 00:03:22.989 other on a desktop. Brilliant. But, 53 00:03:25.394 --> 00:03:29.234 then we just, nobody really knew about this virtual thing. And I spent ages 54 00:03:29.234 --> 00:03:32.890 working on it and ended up being asked to help other people and 55 00:03:32.890 --> 00:03:36.489 write books on it. But I've probably carried on long enough. So back to you, 56 00:03:36.489 --> 00:03:40.224 John. Yeah. When you've when you're talking about that, 57 00:03:40.224 --> 00:03:43.985 those days weeks months after 9/11, I 58 00:03:43.985 --> 00:03:47.620 look back. Yeah. Most people kind of remember where they 59 00:03:47.620 --> 00:03:51.160 were. It's one of those, you know where you were type type moments. 60 00:03:51.620 --> 00:03:55.375 I remember I was working on a project for a cable 61 00:03:55.375 --> 00:03:59.075 TV startup in Irvine in Scotland. 62 00:04:00.254 --> 00:04:03.790 And I remember we we just got the the head end, the the 63 00:04:03.790 --> 00:04:07.630 technology center up and running that, you know, the the massive big 64 00:04:07.630 --> 00:04:11.090 dish in in the in the in the back, and they've plumbed it all in. 65 00:04:11.275 --> 00:04:14.815 And those were the first pictures we got live 66 00:04:15.275 --> 00:04:18.075 in in the in the computer room in the head end, in the in the 67 00:04:18.075 --> 00:04:21.920 knock. There's the picture we had up, and we all gather around this small 68 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:25.520 screen looking at the I think it was well, it's obviously the 69 00:04:25.520 --> 00:04:29.125 second plane hitting the the tab because nobody saw the first plane 70 00:04:29.125 --> 00:04:32.724 hit. And we were just stunned 71 00:04:32.724 --> 00:04:36.360 silent, and I was texting friends 72 00:04:36.360 --> 00:04:40.139 that I'd been in New York with, the year before, 73 00:04:40.200 --> 00:04:43.855 months before, just reminiscing and just stunned 74 00:04:43.855 --> 00:04:46.195 silence. So that was, yeah, 75 00:04:47.855 --> 00:04:51.460 a world changing day and time, wasn't 76 00:04:51.460 --> 00:04:54.900 it? It was. And I had a friend, though. Yeah. It was in the 77 00:04:54.900 --> 00:04:58.740 air at that time, flying to the 78 00:04:58.740 --> 00:05:02.405 US, and 79 00:05:02.405 --> 00:05:05.445 they had no idea what's going on. They just know that they suddenly entered a 80 00:05:05.445 --> 00:05:08.870 holding path and go around the circles. I think they ended up 81 00:05:09.090 --> 00:05:12.610 landing in Gander. And if you've ever landed in Gander at 82 00:05:12.610 --> 00:05:16.365 Newfoundland, it's quite an adventure. I mean, I've I've been there once on the 83 00:05:16.365 --> 00:05:19.965 way to Miami and sat on the tarmac in Gander for 5 84 00:05:19.965 --> 00:05:23.805 hours, because somebody had a suspect heart attack. But she was 85 00:05:23.805 --> 00:05:27.270 in the air. And, of course, she knew nothing about what's going on 86 00:05:27.570 --> 00:05:31.030 at the time, and her husband obviously did. 87 00:05:31.410 --> 00:05:34.895 Obviously, knew that she was in the air. Her arrival time 88 00:05:34.895 --> 00:05:38.414 wasn't too dissimilar. So, of 89 00:05:38.414 --> 00:05:42.095 course, he knew that it wasn't her on those 90 00:05:42.095 --> 00:05:45.720 planes because he knew that wasn't her her flight. But he he was 91 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:49.400 worried. You know? He didn't know what's gonna happen. Jo, yeah, when she 92 00:05:49.400 --> 00:05:53.035 landed, all these panicked phone calls and messages, she still had no 93 00:05:53.035 --> 00:05:56.794 idea until suddenly everyone became aware of 94 00:05:56.794 --> 00:06:00.390 what had happened. And, yeah. So she tells that story from a different 95 00:06:00.550 --> 00:06:04.010 perspective, being up in here at the time. So, yeah, it's it's 96 00:06:04.710 --> 00:06:08.470 a, yeah, one of those moments, but I and as she 97 00:06:08.470 --> 00:06:12.065 was saying that, you're right. It's it's one of those pivotal moments in history 98 00:06:12.065 --> 00:06:15.845 where we suddenly have to adapt, change, learn about ourselves. 99 00:06:16.385 --> 00:06:20.090 So the need for you to develop the virtual training, the virtual way of 100 00:06:20.090 --> 00:06:23.469 interacting with people. And and as you say, at a time 101 00:06:24.090 --> 00:06:27.794 where Zoom didn't exist, Teams didn't exist, Maybe there's a 102 00:06:27.794 --> 00:06:31.555 bit of Webex and then I used to remote IT support. So we're using 103 00:06:31.555 --> 00:06:35.340 things like, what's it called? TeamViewer, 104 00:06:35.640 --> 00:06:38.860 things like this. So a kind of IT tools, weren't they, for a remote 105 00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:43.004 dot. Yeah. The only way we saw each other face to face 106 00:06:43.004 --> 00:06:46.384 is really when we were in the video conference 107 00:06:46.525 --> 00:06:49.585 suite, which tended to be a corner office, 108 00:06:50.009 --> 00:06:53.789 normally booked solid by senior very senior managers 109 00:06:54.330 --> 00:06:58.090 at the lovely time, you know, between 2 5 when the UK and the 110 00:06:58.090 --> 00:07:01.335 US overlapped. We could book those, 111 00:07:02.195 --> 00:07:05.715 but we couldn't do video on the on the desktop like we can 112 00:07:05.715 --> 00:07:09.180 now. I think we were able to see each other's 113 00:07:09.180 --> 00:07:12.540 screens, if we had 114 00:07:12.540 --> 00:07:16.165 IT tech support tools, but yes, all very, very different. And 115 00:07:16.165 --> 00:07:20.005 the funniest thing is that there are now people in the workplace who 116 00:07:20.005 --> 00:07:22.185 don't remember 911. 117 00:07:24.110 --> 00:07:27.490 And the phone in the mobile phones, they were they were phones. 118 00:07:28.190 --> 00:07:31.824 And I seem to remember cameras were just coming in our phones. They they 119 00:07:31.824 --> 00:07:35.185 weren't defacto. They weren't the standard feature. No. 120 00:07:35.185 --> 00:07:38.810 No. Not at all. Maybe some video messaging or you'd you 121 00:07:38.810 --> 00:07:42.410 share video clips with each other or you maybe just perhaps send a 122 00:07:42.410 --> 00:07:46.250 picture. And it's very early days with that. And I remember you Jo into companies, 123 00:07:46.250 --> 00:07:49.905 everybody wants to you had to prove that your camera was disabled when you 124 00:07:49.905 --> 00:07:53.525 walked into the building, and everyone was scared about people stealing secrets. 125 00:07:54.544 --> 00:07:58.310 Absolutely. Yeah. The world has changed so much, hasn't it? 126 00:07:58.370 --> 00:08:02.130 Yeah. Yeah. I remember we did most of the work by conference calls, 127 00:08:02.130 --> 00:08:05.935 so we couldn't see each other at all, but we had to listen out 128 00:08:05.935 --> 00:08:09.375 very carefully. And we got a lot done that 129 00:08:09.375 --> 00:08:12.974 way, but we had to be structured. It forced us to do 130 00:08:12.974 --> 00:08:16.440 things well, And I think that's how I 131 00:08:17.220 --> 00:08:21.000 it forced yeah. It forced me to develop all the things that I then 132 00:08:21.515 --> 00:08:25.275 used and helped other people with and and ended up thinking 133 00:08:25.275 --> 00:08:29.115 through properly in the year that I wrote my book, Virtual Leadership. And I'm so 134 00:08:29.115 --> 00:08:32.470 glad I had a chance to think through that book and write 135 00:08:32.470 --> 00:08:36.169 it well before you know, a few years before the pandemic 136 00:08:36.230 --> 00:08:39.690 hit, because then it was there. It was ready. People could just grab it. 137 00:08:40.404 --> 00:08:43.865 And, yeah, it's been selling like hotcakes, that one. 138 00:08:45.205 --> 00:08:48.265 So what was what's the cover of the big big nuggets 139 00:08:48.770 --> 00:08:52.490 of, of lessons you've learned at that time or or put in your book? What's 140 00:08:52.490 --> 00:08:55.810 the what's the kind of big nuggets from that? Yeah. There are a few things. 141 00:08:55.810 --> 00:08:59.575 One thing is, that I think people are just about getting 142 00:08:59.635 --> 00:09:03.075 about now, is 143 00:09:03.075 --> 00:09:06.770 that virtual working is not just about being 144 00:09:06.770 --> 00:09:10.610 in virtual meetings. That actually you need to think, how 145 00:09:10.610 --> 00:09:12.870 do you as a team work effectively? 146 00:09:15.255 --> 00:09:18.714 And then work as much as you can asynchronously. 147 00:09:19.095 --> 00:09:22.860 You don't have to be together face to face like you and 148 00:09:22.860 --> 00:09:26.700 I are when we're recording this. You can do a lot of 149 00:09:26.700 --> 00:09:30.485 work in a much more flexible way. You can, you can do 150 00:09:30.485 --> 00:09:34.165 work. If you do work asynchronously, so that means people can do 151 00:09:34.165 --> 00:09:37.384 things at a time to suit them, then you can 152 00:09:38.740 --> 00:09:41.960 flex around people's needs. Perhaps people, 153 00:09:42.580 --> 00:09:45.940 for example, have kids they want to collect from school. Yeah, they can go off, 154 00:09:45.940 --> 00:09:49.685 collect the kids from school, come back, but then they can make up 155 00:09:49.685 --> 00:09:53.445 that time to produce the output that's needed at 156 00:09:53.445 --> 00:09:57.065 a different time. Perhaps they work far better first thing in the morning 157 00:09:57.210 --> 00:10:01.010 or last thing at night. And if people can do the 158 00:10:01.010 --> 00:10:04.730 work, the virtual work that they need to do at times when they can work 159 00:10:04.730 --> 00:10:08.524 best, as opposed to being expected to be sitting down 160 00:10:08.524 --> 00:10:12.360 in front of a computer on meetings, you know, for a back 161 00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:15.660 to back all day, which I saw so many people doing last year. 162 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:19.995 That's just not a good use of people's time. Not very 163 00:10:19.995 --> 00:10:23.675 inclusive either. Mhmm. No. I completely agree. And I 164 00:10:23.675 --> 00:10:27.435 think I was probably one of those people that got sucked into this back to 165 00:10:27.435 --> 00:10:31.230 back 15 minute gaps. And then you Joanne wake you get at the end of 166 00:10:31.230 --> 00:10:34.610 the day, you can't move. You are you are numb and drained 167 00:10:35.390 --> 00:10:38.925 because you've you've had no break at all, have you? It's just screen 168 00:10:38.925 --> 00:10:42.685 time. The thing that really helped the people who were in 169 00:10:42.685 --> 00:10:46.420 those back to back meetings and didn't feel they could 170 00:10:46.579 --> 00:10:49.480 change the culture of their organization quickly 171 00:10:50.019 --> 00:10:53.620 was, if they were in control of any meetings, Jo start 172 00:10:53.620 --> 00:10:56.255 them at 5 past the hour and finish them at 5 173 00:10:57.535 --> 00:11:01.135 2 rather than just I mean, there's so many people doing 9 to 10, 10 174 00:11:01.135 --> 00:11:04.860 to 11, 11 to 12, you know, maybe grab 5 minutes to 175 00:11:04.860 --> 00:11:08.380 grab a sandwich and then, you know, on 3 to 1. It was just 176 00:11:08.380 --> 00:11:12.220 crazy. Yeah. That's certainly a lesson I've learned is to 177 00:11:12.220 --> 00:11:15.935 make sure I've got that time between the between the calls. 178 00:11:15.995 --> 00:11:19.595 And because inevitably, the calls was end up overrunning a bit, don't 179 00:11:19.595 --> 00:11:22.875 they? If you're not careful, every call overruns into the next. By the end of 180 00:11:22.875 --> 00:11:26.530 the day, you've just literally overrun or your contingency is your 181 00:11:26.530 --> 00:11:30.370 lunch break or a coffee break. Yeah. 182 00:11:30.370 --> 00:11:33.715 And I've seen people when I'm running training, 183 00:11:34.495 --> 00:11:37.935 they arrive dead on time or 30 seconds late because they've just come for a 184 00:11:37.935 --> 00:11:40.895 meeting. And at the end of the training session, they're saying, well, I've gotta go. 185 00:11:40.895 --> 00:11:44.560 I'm into another meeting now. It's like, so you haven't really been 186 00:11:44.560 --> 00:11:48.240 present because you've this this training is squashed between 2 187 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:51.845 other activities. And I do question sometimes whether people 188 00:11:51.845 --> 00:11:55.605 need that half an hour to decompress before and half an hour to 189 00:11:55.605 --> 00:11:59.399 absorb at the end before doing something else. Otherwise, it's it's such 190 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:03.100 a transient activity that that there's no memory of it. 191 00:12:04.360 --> 00:12:08.045 Yeah. And, actually, we need time to get actions done. There's a whole 192 00:12:08.045 --> 00:12:11.644 chapter in my new book coming up all about how do we make sure 193 00:12:11.644 --> 00:12:15.404 workshops get actions done? Because so often, I mean, I don't 194 00:12:15.404 --> 00:12:19.250 know if you are like this, Joanne, but you find that, there are 195 00:12:19.250 --> 00:12:23.010 meetings, particularly in big organizations, there are meetings and 196 00:12:23.010 --> 00:12:26.595 then a couple of weeks later, they have a meeting and none of the 197 00:12:26.595 --> 00:12:30.375 actions have been done, and they essentially agree all the same actions to carry forward. 198 00:12:32.274 --> 00:12:36.100 It's crazy. I mean, I'm guilty of myself. 199 00:12:36.100 --> 00:12:39.640 I'm so busy scheduling 200 00:12:40.260 --> 00:12:43.885 new business or or delivery. I very rarely have 201 00:12:43.885 --> 00:12:47.565 time to focus on the admin or getting back to 202 00:12:47.565 --> 00:12:51.410 people with information I said I would. And I end up squashing that in 203 00:12:51.410 --> 00:12:54.790 between 2 other meetings. I don't have an I don't say to myself, 204 00:12:55.330 --> 00:12:58.825 this afternoon is is catch up time or or 205 00:12:58.825 --> 00:13:02.425 downtime. And, I said trying to keep keep 206 00:13:02.425 --> 00:13:06.125 on delivering is, yeah, quite a struggle to to think about that. 207 00:13:06.970 --> 00:13:09.210 Being good to yourself, isn't it? That's what you're trying to do, try and be 208 00:13:09.210 --> 00:13:12.810 good to yourself and be fair to yourself. Mhmm. And actually do the best 209 00:13:12.810 --> 00:13:16.325 work you can. So I'm sure if you're trying to squash the 210 00:13:16.325 --> 00:13:20.005 actual core, really important bits of work, knowledge 211 00:13:20.005 --> 00:13:23.465 work now, we need time to think. 212 00:13:23.810 --> 00:13:27.090 And if you try and squash it into the odd snatch minute here and there, 213 00:13:27.090 --> 00:13:30.930 we're not going to be doing our best work, are we? No. For sure. 214 00:13:30.930 --> 00:13:34.675 We're not. No. It's and that also I mean, 215 00:13:34.675 --> 00:13:38.035 one of the purposes, yeah, the mattress of this podcast around 216 00:13:38.035 --> 00:13:41.630 inclusion, of course, different people 217 00:13:41.850 --> 00:13:45.150 think, experience, interact differently. And 218 00:13:45.370 --> 00:13:48.964 often we design these constructs of 219 00:13:48.964 --> 00:13:52.725 meetings around the privileged or the leaders or or the way we've 220 00:13:52.725 --> 00:13:56.084 always done it. And I think we start to learn that that that doesn't work 221 00:13:56.084 --> 00:13:59.860 for everybody, does it? No. Absolutely not. So, I mean, 222 00:13:59.860 --> 00:14:02.740 my thing is to get the best if you want to get the best out 223 00:14:02.740 --> 00:14:06.360 of everybody, and surely, if you're bringing people together to work together, 224 00:14:06.954 --> 00:14:10.795 you want each person to do their best and to be at their 225 00:14:10.795 --> 00:14:14.630 best. So, create the conditions where each 226 00:14:14.630 --> 00:14:18.310 person can contribute their 227 00:14:18.310 --> 00:14:22.070 best to that group. And so the group as a whole can do their 228 00:14:22.070 --> 00:14:25.805 best possible work together and change the world, hopefully, just a little 229 00:14:25.805 --> 00:14:29.105 bit. Mhmm. So that means when you're designing 230 00:14:30.285 --> 00:14:34.080 a work shop or a meeting or something, think about each 231 00:14:34.220 --> 00:14:37.900 person. What's going to be the environment of 232 00:14:37.900 --> 00:14:41.575 that meeting or workshop that will help them to 233 00:14:41.575 --> 00:14:45.175 do their best work? You probably can't imagine 234 00:14:45.175 --> 00:14:48.930 this in, the the answers to these. You probably have to have discussions with 235 00:14:48.930 --> 00:14:52.449 them unless you know them very well. But what's gonna 236 00:14:52.449 --> 00:14:54.069 suit different people? 237 00:14:56.545 --> 00:14:59.685 Yeah. Well, ask them upfront. Absolutely. 238 00:15:00.225 --> 00:15:03.990 And say, you know, what's going to be best for you? And and 239 00:15:03.990 --> 00:15:07.750 if they look blank, because nobody's ever asked them anything like that and has 240 00:15:07.750 --> 00:15:11.375 just expected them to fit in, they might well look blank. But you can 241 00:15:11.375 --> 00:15:15.055 say, you know, we've got a whole range already. You know, somebody wants 242 00:15:15.055 --> 00:15:18.720 this, somebody suggested this, somebody else wanted, I don't know, 243 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:22.240 to have to have fruit available in the room or whatever it might 244 00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:25.839 be. Sort of let let them know 245 00:15:25.839 --> 00:15:29.645 how how you really do genuinely want to make it possible for them to do 246 00:15:29.645 --> 00:15:33.405 their best possible work. Give them some examples of some of the things that suit 247 00:15:33.405 --> 00:15:36.990 other people. It's amazing. People's eyes light up and go, what? 248 00:15:36.990 --> 00:15:40.670 Really? Yeah. 249 00:15:40.670 --> 00:15:43.810 You've asked me. You care about me. You thought about me. Yeah. It's 250 00:15:44.575 --> 00:15:48.274 you say, I've I've been some on some some great local courses, 251 00:15:48.654 --> 00:15:51.615 and you walk in. As you say, there's fruit on the table, there's chocolate, there's 252 00:15:51.615 --> 00:15:55.220 coffee, there's cold water, And and immediately, you just feel, 253 00:15:55.220 --> 00:15:58.980 oh, you feel happy, you're conversational, everyone's talking about, oh, isn't this lovely? 254 00:15:58.980 --> 00:16:02.435 And you start off with positive frame of mind, don't you? So the room is 255 00:16:02.435 --> 00:16:06.195 all laid out. Despite working for Mars for 10 years, 256 00:16:06.195 --> 00:16:09.940 I wouldn't have chocolate in a meeting or workshop. Because what 257 00:16:09.940 --> 00:16:13.779 you do is you get this sort of sugar high. The rush. And 258 00:16:13.779 --> 00:16:17.560 then what happens next is the crash, and everybody's, you know. 259 00:16:19.345 --> 00:16:22.865 So even when I was working for Mars, I actually banned chocolates from the 260 00:16:22.865 --> 00:16:26.545 meeting rooms, I would say, because of that. Just those little 261 00:16:26.545 --> 00:16:30.140 foxes boxes glass of mints that people put out Oh, no. No. No. Still sugar. 262 00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:33.580 Still sugar. So apart from the jelly beans. 263 00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:37.555 Yeah. Absolutely. So fruit is good, 264 00:16:37.735 --> 00:16:41.495 but actually what's really helpful, unless you have someone with a nut allergy, so 265 00:16:41.495 --> 00:16:45.095 this is important, nuts are actually really good because they give you enough 266 00:16:45.095 --> 00:16:48.940 energy to stop being hungry. Yeah. They're high in protein, aren't 267 00:16:48.940 --> 00:16:52.620 they? Low in fat, generally. Well, they have quite a lot of 268 00:16:52.620 --> 00:16:56.105 fat from nuts. Almonds are the best, aren't they? So, yeah, nut 269 00:16:56.265 --> 00:16:59.785 nuts are great as well, and and some fruit, and and that'll keep people 270 00:16:59.785 --> 00:17:03.625 going. The other thing I do is in in a in 271 00:17:03.625 --> 00:17:07.299 person workshop, I like to use music. So 272 00:17:07.299 --> 00:17:10.980 something that really gets people feeling, hang on, this is a little bit 273 00:17:10.980 --> 00:17:14.655 different from your box standard boring meeting, is to 274 00:17:14.655 --> 00:17:18.494 play some steel drum music just 275 00:17:18.494 --> 00:17:21.395 in the background as people coming in. Because that's the sort of classic 276 00:17:22.095 --> 00:17:25.910 we're on holiday music, perhaps. Jo just 277 00:17:25.910 --> 00:17:29.530 so it's just so different from the standard work vibe. 278 00:17:29.750 --> 00:17:33.505 So I find that quite fun. I like the idea. 279 00:17:33.505 --> 00:17:36.918 So maybe just have it Yeah. As part of the warm up or the it 280 00:17:36.945 --> 00:17:39.265 we're able to get their seat just a bit of a bit of a jump 281 00:17:39.265 --> 00:17:42.850 in the background. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. I like that idea. 282 00:17:43.389 --> 00:17:46.750 My accent arms people. Yeah. But don't do 283 00:17:46.750 --> 00:17:50.049 anything that is still drum music of standard 284 00:17:50.110 --> 00:17:52.865 tunes, especially ones that have 285 00:17:53.565 --> 00:17:57.165 words, because it's very easy with music to switch 286 00:17:57.165 --> 00:18:00.929 people back into a state from the past. And the last thing 287 00:18:00.929 --> 00:18:04.470 you want is to be playing a music that was, you know, our song 288 00:18:04.530 --> 00:18:08.365 when somebody's just gone through a dramatic and 289 00:18:08.365 --> 00:18:12.045 unhappy divorce, for example. So 290 00:18:12.045 --> 00:18:13.505 nothing that invokes a memory. 291 00:18:16.420 --> 00:18:20.120 Yeah. And that and that's part of the when I talk about inclusion, 292 00:18:20.820 --> 00:18:22.760 is thinking about all these permutations 293 00:18:25.154 --> 00:18:28.595 about not using your own lens all the time, thinking about the 294 00:18:28.595 --> 00:18:32.274 impact or how that would resonate with somebody 295 00:18:32.274 --> 00:18:36.070 else. And as simple as that, yeah, as you say, triggering a 296 00:18:36.070 --> 00:18:37.690 memory, triggering an upset, 297 00:18:40.075 --> 00:18:43.775 overemphasis on family, overemphasis on children in discussions, 298 00:18:45.035 --> 00:18:48.809 that may well lead someone to feel sad 299 00:18:48.809 --> 00:18:52.110 or upset if they've lost someone recently. So it's yeah. 300 00:18:52.890 --> 00:18:56.350 It's so difficult, though, because we we love these human interactions 301 00:18:57.635 --> 00:19:00.995 and almost have to pause and take a break and step back and 302 00:19:00.995 --> 00:19:03.495 go, is this gonna work? Is this a good conversation? 303 00:19:05.130 --> 00:19:08.490 And think about what are the assumptions that I'm making about 304 00:19:08.490 --> 00:19:11.735 people? So 305 00:19:12.195 --> 00:19:15.655 it's so easy to assume that people fit into the stereotypes 306 00:19:15.955 --> 00:19:19.335 of that age of the age that they are, 307 00:19:20.279 --> 00:19:24.120 or of the gender or of, well, all sorts of 308 00:19:24.120 --> 00:19:27.640 things. I remember, obviously, the group of 309 00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:31.075 friends is several years ago, and we were talking 310 00:19:31.075 --> 00:19:34.674 about television and soaps or films or 311 00:19:34.674 --> 00:19:38.054 whatever's been going on. And one person 312 00:19:38.659 --> 00:19:42.419 doesn't didn't have a television. And, of course, we were all fascinated about 313 00:19:42.419 --> 00:19:46.200 how this person was able to survive in their life without a television. 314 00:19:46.260 --> 00:19:49.544 Apparently, they didn't go to movies or the cinema, so they had 315 00:19:50.965 --> 00:19:54.424 no visual media bias in their life. They had no visual entertainment. 316 00:19:55.284 --> 00:19:59.100 And we all find it really incredible, but then as the day and 317 00:19:59.100 --> 00:20:02.940 the time with them progressed, we found it really difficult to have 318 00:20:02.940 --> 00:20:06.640 conversations because we realized that so much of the context, the conversations, 319 00:20:06.780 --> 00:20:09.765 and discussed we had had a kind of 320 00:20:10.625 --> 00:20:14.305 culture based on film and TV. Mhmm. Even 321 00:20:14.305 --> 00:20:17.600 just that expressions of humor or 322 00:20:17.820 --> 00:20:21.660 or scenarios or quoting a line, and we've had it 323 00:20:21.660 --> 00:20:25.315 really strange. Joanne, that made me realize that 324 00:20:26.495 --> 00:20:30.015 people experience the world differently. They have different paradigms, different 325 00:20:30.015 --> 00:20:33.840 metaphors to the ones I use. And what I thought were really good 326 00:20:33.840 --> 00:20:37.600 really good examples, suddenly it didn't work. And it it was 327 00:20:37.600 --> 00:20:41.280 really testing. So, yeah, we we can't make those assumptions that people 328 00:20:41.280 --> 00:20:43.965 think and perceive the world as we do. 329 00:20:44.745 --> 00:20:48.505 Absolutely. So that's why it's really, really important. If 330 00:20:48.505 --> 00:20:52.290 you want to get the best work out of people, which is if 331 00:20:52.290 --> 00:20:55.730 you're bringing people together for a workshop, or a 332 00:20:55.730 --> 00:20:59.570 meeting of any sort, you're doing that to get 333 00:20:59.570 --> 00:21:02.935 some work done together. Then actually 334 00:21:03.155 --> 00:21:06.695 know who the people are and design the process 335 00:21:06.995 --> 00:21:10.809 of your session to so 336 00:21:10.809 --> 00:21:14.570 that each person can do their best work. And, overall, you can do fantastic work, 337 00:21:14.570 --> 00:21:16.510 and you can have lots of fun doing it. 338 00:21:19.735 --> 00:21:23.415 Yeah. I I I think a fun element has to be enjoyable, doesn't 339 00:21:23.415 --> 00:21:27.049 it? Work work shouldn't be tedious. 340 00:21:27.750 --> 00:21:30.090 Work with an element of satisfaction 341 00:21:31.429 --> 00:21:35.190 and enjoyment doesn't become mundane, in which case you're more like to 342 00:21:35.190 --> 00:21:38.445 be diligent, engaged, productive. Absolutely. 343 00:21:40.025 --> 00:21:43.865 Now, it's interesting, you see. I don't know if you 344 00:21:43.865 --> 00:21:47.230 know the book Death by Meeting by Patrick Lenconi. 345 00:21:48.490 --> 00:21:51.930 I've not read the book, but I've been in the meeting. Yes, 346 00:21:51.930 --> 00:21:55.455 absolutely. Now you see his answer to boring 347 00:21:55.455 --> 00:21:58.735 meetings, I'm not quite this this, 348 00:22:00.015 --> 00:22:03.620 yeah, I wouldn't go quite as far, but he says the best thing to do 349 00:22:03.620 --> 00:22:06.919 if you're in a boring meeting is to mine for conflict. 350 00:22:08.340 --> 00:22:12.144 Because if you dive deeper and find things that 351 00:22:12.144 --> 00:22:15.985 people care about enough to, for there to be conflict 352 00:22:15.985 --> 00:22:19.745 and a little bit of tension, then you've got to something that people 353 00:22:19.745 --> 00:22:23.280 care about and not just, can't can't be bothered. 354 00:22:23.900 --> 00:22:27.660 Okay. Which I think is interesting, but but I suppose the 355 00:22:27.660 --> 00:22:31.425 core of what he's saying is that actually people do care about things. And 356 00:22:31.425 --> 00:22:35.265 if you're working just and you're 357 00:22:35.265 --> 00:22:38.899 sort of glossing over everything and it's just tedious and boring. 358 00:22:38.899 --> 00:22:41.799 You're not actually engaging with things that people care about. So 359 00:22:42.580 --> 00:22:46.419 maybe mining for conflict is one of the ways to to do that. 360 00:22:46.419 --> 00:22:50.245 But I'd probably say mine for things people care about as opposed 361 00:22:50.245 --> 00:22:54.005 to try and find conflict. Yeah. Also, maybe as a as a 362 00:22:54.490 --> 00:22:58.090 when you're thinking as an inclusive leader or as an inclusive facilitator, as 363 00:22:58.090 --> 00:23:01.870 you're you're the host of that session, you have to be aware 364 00:23:02.265 --> 00:23:05.965 and emotionally intelligent enough to understand you're losing the audience. 365 00:23:06.265 --> 00:23:10.110 Because how often do we see people running for the finish line, I'm 366 00:23:10.110 --> 00:23:13.390 gonna give you this. I'm gonna go I'm gonna finish. No matter what happens, I'm 367 00:23:13.390 --> 00:23:17.090 gonna you're gonna get this without stopping or reflecting. Oh, actually, 368 00:23:17.230 --> 00:23:21.044 the right thing to do here is to pause, change, and adapt. 369 00:23:21.265 --> 00:23:24.325 Because I I've sat in meetings where where we've ended up getting 370 00:23:24.945 --> 00:23:28.760 our hankies out of our bags and waving the white flag. So it's 371 00:23:28.760 --> 00:23:32.520 like, we give up. We surrender. It's interesting because I 372 00:23:32.520 --> 00:23:36.360 talk about this a little bit in the, in the book that's coming out 373 00:23:36.360 --> 00:23:39.544 in July, And I talk about, 374 00:23:40.325 --> 00:23:43.385 how people tend to go into, I've got to be in control 375 00:23:44.645 --> 00:23:48.470 mode. So I've got to finish this, whatever. You 376 00:23:48.470 --> 00:23:48.970 know, 377 00:23:52.070 --> 00:23:55.590 that I need to, I have the, I'm the authority, the 378 00:23:55.590 --> 00:23:59.415 spotlight is on me. I I'm you know, 379 00:23:59.415 --> 00:24:02.295 something's going on. I'm the one who has to know what's going on, and I 380 00:24:02.295 --> 00:24:05.995 need to make the decisions as to what happens next. And it's a complete disaster, 381 00:24:06.580 --> 00:24:10.360 you know, like you and your friends with your white handkeys. 382 00:24:11.380 --> 00:24:14.755 That's what it feels like. Whereas, if I've learned 383 00:24:14.755 --> 00:24:18.595 now after many years of doing this, that if I'm in a 384 00:24:18.595 --> 00:24:22.035 workshop and it feels like that, and I'm the workshop leader, I will say 385 00:24:22.035 --> 00:24:25.720 something like, to me, it feels like we are 386 00:24:26.100 --> 00:24:29.720 elephants when we're wading through this 387 00:24:29.860 --> 00:24:33.695 gloopy field full of treacle. Doesn't 388 00:24:33.695 --> 00:24:37.055 it feel a bit like that to you? And then everybody will smile and 389 00:24:37.055 --> 00:24:40.840 go, yeah. And then I say, well, what Joanne we do? What what 390 00:24:40.840 --> 00:24:44.600 are your suggestions for making it a little bit less like elephants 391 00:24:44.600 --> 00:24:48.360 through a field of treacle? And there'll be all sorts of ideas popping up, and 392 00:24:48.360 --> 00:24:52.005 then people will feel that they've, you know, we're all in it together, 393 00:24:52.065 --> 00:24:55.505 and that's a mode to switch away from. Switch away 394 00:24:55.505 --> 00:24:59.240 from, I've got to be in control of everything to, 395 00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:02.920 We're in it together. But actually as a facilitator, that takes all the 396 00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:06.655 weight off your shoulders and actually lets you be much 397 00:25:06.655 --> 00:25:10.095 better. And you're much less likely to head off into the fight, 398 00:25:10.095 --> 00:25:13.795 flight, freeze response that you tend to get when you're really stressed. 399 00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:17.660 That comes very quickly when you're in this, I've got to be in control 400 00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:21.615 mode. Whereas if you're sort of, you know, we're in this 401 00:25:21.615 --> 00:25:24.435