Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion By Its podcast. In this series, I've interviewed a number of
Joanne Lockwood: amazing people and simply had a conversation around the subject of inclusion,
Joanne Lockwood: belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to
Joanne Lockwood: thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me
Joanne Lockwood: a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You
Joanne Lockwood: can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify, and the
Joanne Lockwood: usual places. So plug in the headphones, grab a decaf,
Joanne Lockwood: and let's get going. Today is episode
Joanne Lockwood: 37 with the title Homes For Heroes.
Joanne Lockwood: And I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by a great friend
Joanne Lockwood: and colleague, Mushtaq Khan. Mushtaq describes himself as someone
Joanne Lockwood: who helps the health social housing sector become more
Joanne Lockwood: inclusive. When I asked Mushtaq to describe his superpower,
Joanne Lockwood: he said that he's still going strong and active in his fifties,
Joanne Lockwood: playing football and tennis. Hello, Mushtaq. Welcome to the
Joanne Lockwood: show. Thanks, Joanne. It's really good to be on the
Mushtaq Khan: show. We've got to know each other really well over the last
Mushtaq Khan: 12 months, although we've never met in person.
Mushtaq Khan: I'd like to say we've got a really good working relationship, and I
Mushtaq Khan: value your input into the housing sector.
Joanne Lockwood: Thanks, Mushtaq. So when we checked earlier, you're talking about
Joanne Lockwood: homes for heroes. What do you mean by that?
Mushtaq Khan: So when I did my housing studies course, we
Mushtaq Khan: did a little bit about World War 1 and people
Mushtaq Khan: returning from the trenches and British politicians saying that
Mushtaq Khan: we wanted homes fit for heroes. And I
Mushtaq Khan: think it's just as important now,
Mushtaq Khan: 2021, we've got a housing crisis. In fact, we've
Mushtaq Khan: got multiple housing crises across the
Mushtaq Khan: country. And it's really important
Mushtaq Khan: that we, as a society, can
Mushtaq Khan: build homes and houses that
Mushtaq Khan: are suitable for today's needs and that can help
Mushtaq Khan: people, live and thrive and be the
Mushtaq Khan: best that they can be. So you say
Joanne Lockwood: housing crisis, where's that come from? Is it
Joanne Lockwood: snuck up on us, or is it a a a steady rot? I
Mushtaq Khan: think we've had a major housing crisis probably for the last 30 or
Mushtaq Khan: 40 years. Governments of all persuasions
Mushtaq Khan: have pushed homeownership, as the
Mushtaq Khan: tenure of choice, and homeownership has its place.
Mushtaq Khan: We've had a denigration of social rented
Mushtaq Khan: housing. We've had a load of houses that have been sold
Mushtaq Khan: off through the right to buy. We
Mushtaq Khan: have got children
Mushtaq Khan: who Jo parents and children who've got issues because
Mushtaq Khan: their children can't afford to get on the housing market.
Mushtaq Khan: We've got large swathes of the country which are unaffordable. London,
Mushtaq Khan: for example, is unaffordable and many of the our
Mushtaq Khan: cities aren't affordable. And people are
Mushtaq Khan: spending far more of their income on housing
Mushtaq Khan: than I than I feel that they should be. So we've not got
Mushtaq Khan: enough houses. Those that we've got are probably in the wrong
Mushtaq Khan: place, and those that we've got haven't been
Mushtaq Khan: refurbished and bought up to today's standards either.
Joanne Lockwood: I suppose that was highlighted by what tragedy such as
Joanne Lockwood: Grenfell where building regs,
Joanne Lockwood: contractors, housing stock ownership is maybe not socially
Joanne Lockwood: responsible as it should be. No. So Grenfell is
Mushtaq Khan: a it sums up all that's wrong with the housing
Mushtaq Khan: field at the moment and that you have got some of the poorest people in
Mushtaq Khan: society living in the heart of one of the
Mushtaq Khan: richest boroughs in the country. And
Mushtaq Khan: those, people were
Mushtaq Khan: shut off from the rest of society and that the local authority
Mushtaq Khan: which ran those houses decided to clad
Mushtaq Khan: their tower block in material
Mushtaq Khan: that was flammable to make it, the because it was one of the
Mushtaq Khan: cheapest options. And it was to shut off those people from the rest
Mushtaq Khan: of of societies like, seen but not
Mushtaq Khan: heard. And almost all the people who died from the
Mushtaq Khan: tragedy were from a black and minority ethnic background.
Mushtaq Khan: 4 years on, we still have the ramifications, the
Mushtaq Khan: inquiries still going on, whether
Mushtaq Khan: anybody will ever get prosecuted or whether any sanctions will
Mushtaq Khan: apply. You know, it's open to question.
Joanne Lockwood: Is it a British problem, a UK problem?
Joanne Lockwood: How does social housing work in other countries in Europe?
Mushtaq Khan: So I think homeownership and the emphasis on homeownership
Mushtaq Khan: is a particularly British problem. I know that many European
Mushtaq Khan: countries have got a far more thriving
Mushtaq Khan: private rented sector and a social housing
Mushtaq Khan: sector in places like Holland, for example.
Mushtaq Khan: And they also have much more regulation and control over the private
Mushtaq Khan: rented sector. You have rent controls, for example, which we
Mushtaq Khan: had for many years up until the sixties and
Mushtaq Khan: beyond, and they've been steadily whittled
Mushtaq Khan: away to having no rent controls in the private rented
Mushtaq Khan: sector. I mean, I'm a big proponent
Mushtaq Khan: of having a private rented sector that is well regulated
Mushtaq Khan: where landlords are monitored and where the
Mushtaq Khan: standard of properties is is is of a high standard
Mushtaq Khan: Joanne rents are are controlled, and we just simply
Mushtaq Khan: haven't got that source of issue. I mean, you know, the private rented
Mushtaq Khan: sector in large parts of the country is poorly managed. It's
Mushtaq Khan: of low quality, and it's a
Mushtaq Khan: dumping ground for people who can't go anywhere else.
Joanne Lockwood: I've had one of the other troubles we have at the moment is is
Joanne Lockwood: is tenure. Jo the leases
Joanne Lockwood: tend to be in private rented sector for 12 months time
Joanne Lockwood: which makes it very difficult for people to put down roots, plan for the
Joanne Lockwood: future. You're almost always thinking about your next renewal,
Joanne Lockwood: you don't get that chance to just relax in your home.
Joanne Lockwood: Is that the challenge that maybe the the private rented sector faces?
Mushtaq Khan: Yeah. Again, we think that the leases or I think the leases in the
Mushtaq Khan: private rented sector should be a lot longer.
Mushtaq Khan: There's all these section 8 evictions where people can
Mushtaq Khan: be evicted without notice. It's about having a better
Mushtaq Khan: regulated private rented sector where landlords are
Mushtaq Khan: also registered. Some
Mushtaq Khan: councils have compulsory
Mushtaq Khan: what's the word? Compulsory registration compulsory registration for
Mushtaq Khan: landlords. I think if you want to be a private landlord, you should have to
Mushtaq Khan: go through a registration process and not just be a fly
Mushtaq Khan: by night, a rackman type landlord. You
Mushtaq Khan: know, I did a lot of work in in northern towns. So for example, in
Mushtaq Khan: Oldham, we did a survey of how many
Mushtaq Khan: lettings agency well, there's 84 lettings agencies in Oldham.
Mushtaq Khan: So this is a small town where anybody could set up their own
Mushtaq Khan: agency, let out properties,
Mushtaq Khan: not manage them properly. They'd be really poor condition. There'd
Mushtaq Khan: be a focus for antisocial behavior, all on the basis that, you know,
Mushtaq Khan: for somebody to invest in these properties and they're just bothered about getting a rate
Mushtaq Khan: of return. I mean, my experience is
Joanne Lockwood: the the private rented sector and the letting agents is everything
Joanne Lockwood: seems to be outsourced. So they outsource the key collection.
Joanne Lockwood: They outsource the inspections. They outsource the inventory. They outsource
Joanne Lockwood: the maintenance. So what you're really dealing with is
Joanne Lockwood: nice people, but they don't really have any end to end view of the
Joanne Lockwood: tenant life. They're just pushing a button to say, well, we'll get somebody
Joanne Lockwood: in. I think from a tenant's perspective, that leaves a lot of lack
Joanne Lockwood: of joined up thinking in the experience. Yeah. It's not just that,
Mushtaq Khan: Joe. I think it's all them incur a fee
Mushtaq Khan: and private letting
Mushtaq Khan: or lettings, they see many of their fees are a rip off. You know, renewal
Mushtaq Khan: fees, sending signing tenancy agreement fees,
Mushtaq Khan: inspection fees, all those sort of things. It is
Mushtaq Khan: an absolute rip off. And I know some housing associations
Mushtaq Khan: have set up their own social lettings agencies where they manage properties
Mushtaq Khan: in the private rented sector. They've just done away with all them fees because you
Mushtaq Khan: don't hear about them in the social event. So what was changed? Was it
Joanne Lockwood: 12 to 18 months ago, wasn't it? Where there's no document fees
Joanne Lockwood: anymore. There's no you still pay deposit. You still do a pair of
Joanne Lockwood: referencing fee, but a lot of those renewal fees have been taken away now, haven't
Joanne Lockwood: they? Yeah. So in the housing association, when I used to work, we had a
Mushtaq Khan: social lettings agency. Jo upfront fees for the
Mushtaq Khan: tenant. You know, none of that stuff. We we asked them for 2
Mushtaq Khan: weeks rent upfront so you didn't have to pay a month's deposit either.
Mushtaq Khan: And the you know, there's a major hindrance or there's
Mushtaq Khan: obstacles for people to get into the private rented sector. If you had a if
Mushtaq Khan: you're a private landlord, if you gave your property to us to manage, we would
Mushtaq Khan: manage it. And that's what housing organizations do. They manage
Mushtaq Khan: properties. They manage tenants. And I think, you know, that is
Mushtaq Khan: that's a social lettings agencies that are really attractive
Mushtaq Khan: way forward. My
Joanne Lockwood: naive, I suppose, view of the private housing market is or housing
Joanne Lockwood: letting sector is that people often enter it as a
Joanne Lockwood: profit, a pension fund rather than
Joanne Lockwood: the social responsibility of providing someone a home is a business to them,
Joanne Lockwood: isn't it? I think sometimes they forget about the customer which
Joanne Lockwood: is their their less their less or less e.
Mushtaq Khan: Yeah. It's a financialization of housing where people are
Mushtaq Khan: in it for a profit. People see it as their pension fund
Mushtaq Khan: rather than it for it's a it's a place to live for many people.
Mushtaq Khan: I'm not saying that all landlords are bad. I think some people have a really
Mushtaq Khan: positive experience in the private rented sector. But we know
Mushtaq Khan: in some of the big cities and the smaller towns, the quality is poor, the
Mushtaq Khan: management is poor. They're not looked after.
Mushtaq Khan: And they they don't add anything to the built environment.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, I I used to work with, in my previous
Joanne Lockwood: background working on IT, I used to work with a couple of national
Joanne Lockwood: chains of letting agents, and I spoke to some of the franchise holders.
Joanne Lockwood: And they were very clear that their client is the landlord.
Joanne Lockwood: At no point does the tenant figure in anyone's mind
Joanne Lockwood: as the client. So as far as the landlord's concerned, the
Joanne Lockwood: less the letting agent is dealing with the client or the tenant.
Joanne Lockwood: The the letting agent believes the landlord is their client. So who's worrying about
Joanne Lockwood: the interests of the tenant there? And often it's not.
Joanne Lockwood: It's the the letting agent is trying to maximize the
Joanne Lockwood: return for themselves via fees to the landlord.
Joanne Lockwood: Pushing up rents, index linking at 5% a year, whatever it may
Joanne Lockwood: be, because that returns more money to the letting agent. So
Joanne Lockwood: nobody's nobody's got the tenant's interest at heart, have they?
Mushtaq Khan: No. I think that's the difference between private rented
Mushtaq Khan: sector and the best social landlords where,
Mushtaq Khan: having the tenant's interest at heart, making sure that tenants have a
Mushtaq Khan: say both into the running of their home and the running of their neighborhoods
Mushtaq Khan: is important. Yeah. But I think you're right. You
Joanne Lockwood: said it earlier on that there's this UK
Joanne Lockwood: perception that owning is best, whether that
Joanne Lockwood: was developed in the glory
Joanne Lockwood: days of Mackey Thatcher pushing everybody for ownership.
Joanne Lockwood: But but not only around home, it seems as a stigma or something. Yeah. And
Mushtaq Khan: I think you I would go back to the 19 eighties and the Thatcher
Mushtaq Khan: government. One of their flagship policies was giving
Mushtaq Khan: council tenants the right to buy their homes. I've got nothing against
Mushtaq Khan: that, but those homes were never replaced. There was a
Mushtaq Khan: windfall for the windfall for those people who bought those properties straight
Mushtaq Khan: away, and we know that probably a
Mushtaq Khan: third or more than a third of those x right to buy properties end
Mushtaq Khan: up back in the private rented sector at extortionate
Mushtaq Khan: rent. So and if those people on housing benefit were actually
Mushtaq Khan: paying, you know, the state is paying for those those
Mushtaq Khan: those benefits now. You know, they're paid they're paying for that rent. So
Mushtaq Khan: on the long term, it's never worked out for the state, and you've had an
Mushtaq Khan: enormous loss of affordable housing,
Mushtaq Khan: which, you know, plays itself out in society at the moment. So it was a
Mushtaq Khan: good thing at the time. And, you know, I know, for
Mushtaq Khan: example, is it Scotland or Wales one of to have a stop the
Mushtaq Khan: right to buy it, you know, because they just feel that it's a it's a
Mushtaq Khan: an asset to the community which has been privatized, and it does no
Mushtaq Khan: good whatsoever for their local communities.
Joanne Lockwood: So you talk about the the ethical side of social housing.
Joanne Lockwood: What's that look like? What's what what what are the what
Joanne Lockwood: are the good good parts of that? So I think well, I've
Mushtaq Khan: worked most of my life in the housing sector,
Mushtaq Khan: And I've worked with social landlords, both local authority and
Mushtaq Khan: housing association. And
Mushtaq Khan: I think that the housing organizations have 2
Mushtaq Khan: functions. 1 of all is what first of all is to be
Mushtaq Khan: the best possible landlord. So it's getting the basics right in
Mushtaq Khan: terms of property condition, repairs,
Mushtaq Khan: collection of rents, turnaround of properties,
Mushtaq Khan: making sure that the neighborhoods are up to
Mushtaq Khan: standards. But the secondly the second
Mushtaq Khan: part of being a good landlord is being a a community
Mushtaq Khan: anchor, which is ensuring that your residents and
Mushtaq Khan: your neighborhoods can
Mushtaq Khan: improve their life in terms
Mushtaq Khan: of potential, in terms of access to work,
Mushtaq Khan: access to educational opportunities,
Mushtaq Khan: and access to having a better social
Mushtaq Khan: environment around them. So I think there's 2 there's
Mushtaq Khan: 2 functions for for housing organizations. And I
Mushtaq Khan: think, sadly, some of them just do the core landlord functions
Mushtaq Khan: and build new houses, some of which aren't affordable.
Mushtaq Khan: I think housing organizations should help regenerate the
Mushtaq Khan: communities that they're working. And I completely
Joanne Lockwood: agree.
Joanne Lockwood: When I when I you're the CEO of the Housing
Joanne Lockwood: Diversity Network and I believe you also sit in the board of of 1
Joanne Lockwood: or some housing associations yourself, have spent, as you
Joanne Lockwood: just said, a long time in the housing sector or the
Joanne Lockwood: social housing sector. Are social
Joanne Lockwood: housing companies also
Joanne Lockwood: leaning towards profit before before tenant in some cases?
Mushtaq Khan: Well, they won't say profit. They'll say that they want they're all not for profit
Mushtaq Khan: organizations. They do have some for profit off you
Mushtaq Khan: subsidies. I think
Mushtaq Khan: the focus over the last 10 or so years has been
Mushtaq Khan: on new build because the government is
Mushtaq Khan: pushing them to build new houses
Mushtaq Khan: because we the you know, everybody recognizes a housing shortage. I think in the
Mushtaq Khan: push for new houses, they have moved away from
Mushtaq Khan: their core purpose, which is regenerating
Mushtaq Khan: communities. I think the best housing association was set up in the
Mushtaq Khan: sixties as small locally based ventures
Mushtaq Khan: to help local communities improve housing conditions.
Mushtaq Khan: And they've just grown to be massive organizations
Mushtaq Khan: now, and they like doing the core landlord bit
Mushtaq Khan: because, you know, that's what they feel is of of
Mushtaq Khan: port important to them. They have call
Mushtaq Khan: centers. They have text for rent arrears. You know, they've gone away
Mushtaq Khan: from the face to face contact and
Mushtaq Khan: in the drive for new homes, and they save everything just so they can
Mushtaq Khan: build new houses. I'd like organizations
Mushtaq Khan: to to do both. And I think, you know, losing that local community
Mushtaq Khan: impact, local community connection is
Mushtaq Khan: something that, you know, is important to us. And at the
Mushtaq Khan: diversity network, we've got an accreditation scheme, which doesn't just
Mushtaq Khan: look at the,
Mushtaq Khan: how many houses you build. It looks at your wider community purpose. It
Mushtaq Khan: looks at your business impact. It looks at how much social investment
Mushtaq Khan: you've done. And I think that's just as important for me.
Mushtaq Khan: Mhmm. Because there there's two sides to
Joanne Lockwood: a housing association with tenant. There's the affordable housing
Joanne Lockwood: for key workers, nurses, doctors, firefighters, police,
Joanne Lockwood: whoever that may be. There's also the lifeline housing
Joanne Lockwood: for people who are on benefits or don't have access
Joanne Lockwood: to credit ratings or whatever that may be. Do you think
Joanne Lockwood: some housing associations are prioritizing the key worker affordable
Joanne Lockwood: homes rather than the baseline social impact
Joanne Lockwood: housing? I think I think Jo. Certainly in London.
Mushtaq Khan: I think, you know, London's got a particular housing crisis.
Mushtaq Khan: Key workers can't afford to live there, but they have affordable
Mushtaq Khan: housing and then there's a even the affordable housing, there's a push for shared
Mushtaq Khan: ownership rather than truly affordable rented housing.
Mushtaq Khan: To me, yeah, housing house is affordable if you're spending
Mushtaq Khan: probably a third of your income on
Mushtaq Khan: rent. So you you just look at the average wage in a particular area
Mushtaq Khan: and say, look, if a third of your wages on rent, then that is
Mushtaq Khan: affordable. The government defines affordable housing as 80%
Mushtaq Khan: of what the market charges, which is far in excess
Mushtaq Khan: of what I would class as truly affordable.
Mushtaq Khan: And just going back to your earlier point, I would like
Mushtaq Khan: housing social housing was set up for anybody, and
Mushtaq Khan: you didn't have to be on benefits
Mushtaq Khan: or, you know, in the twilight of your
Mushtaq Khan: years needing sheltered accommodation. It was set up for anybody.
Mushtaq Khan: And you were meant to have doctors miss mixing with
Mushtaq Khan: laborers and having truly mixed communities.
Mushtaq Khan: And you're right in that we moved away. And there's a stigma
Mushtaq Khan: attached to social housing, and there was a concept in
Mushtaq Khan: the nineties and early 2000 having sink estates where people
Mushtaq Khan: were dumped because nobody else would have them. They'd been through the
Mushtaq Khan: homelessness route, and they were just dumped on particular areas.
Mushtaq Khan: And that led to a real downward spiral in those
Mushtaq Khan: areas. And, you know, I'm a great advocate of
Mushtaq Khan: having mixed sustainable communities with people from all
Mushtaq Khan: walks of life living together.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Because this shared ownership is is not the panacea
Joanne Lockwood: it reports to be because it's it's not any more affordable
Joanne Lockwood: than the renting. Is it because
Joanne Lockwood: a shared ownership resident is seen to be
Joanne Lockwood: more likely to care about the property and the environment because they have a stake
Joanne Lockwood: in it. Is this the bias against people who are
Joanne Lockwood: tenants as being more like to commit antisocial behaviors, more like to
Joanne Lockwood: be the wrong sort? Is that the bias that's created? I'm
Mushtaq Khan: sure it's the bias. I'm sure it's
Mushtaq Khan: the emphasis that we've had on your home. Is
Mushtaq Khan: it your home, your castle? What's the phrase? Is it like your
Mushtaq Khan: an Englishman's home is his castle? And that's you
Mushtaq Khan: know, if they if there's an emphasis on homeownership, and it's just being
Mushtaq Khan: pushed over years years. But we know that over recent years,
Mushtaq Khan: homeownership has declined because the generation that's
Mushtaq Khan: coming up now to the stage where they are moving into their own
Mushtaq Khan: accommodation simply cannot afford to buy.
Mushtaq Khan: You know, law in large swathes of the country on the wages that
Mushtaq Khan: they're on, they simply cannot afford to buy properties in those areas. So I
Mushtaq Khan: think there's a real imperative to have a major
Mushtaq Khan: house building program, but we're never gonna get there, you know, not
Mushtaq Khan: without a major sea change.
Mushtaq Khan: I remember probably was it 2000 early 2000s, Kate
Mushtaq Khan: Barker, an economist, did a report on the state of the
Mushtaq Khan: housing market. And she said one of the reasons why,
Mushtaq Khan: housing was housing market was in
Mushtaq Khan: the state which is in is the developers
Mushtaq Khan: onto
Mushtaq Khan: onto the table that there wasn't, it
Mushtaq Khan: wasn't to do with planning, which is is always trotted out. You
Mushtaq Khan: know, planning is behind it, planning regulation. And
Mushtaq Khan: people did people want new houses, but they don't want them
Mushtaq Khan: next door to them, they don't want them in their own backyard.
Joanne Lockwood: And there's a massive, you know, housing estate
Joanne Lockwood: not far from where I live, it's called Burwood in Walkleyville.
Joanne Lockwood: And I don't know how many houses are on the entire state. And there's obviously
Joanne Lockwood: a balance between affordable, social,
Joanne Lockwood: and private. But they've been
Joanne Lockwood: crammed in and I dare say that the the social housing
Joanne Lockwood: and the affordable housing, you can just tell
Joanne Lockwood: the difference in stock is crammed in. I would be bothered
Joanne Lockwood: to get an ambulance of a fire engine through those streets at night where the
Joanne Lockwood: the cars are packed tight. There's no garages, no driveways,
Joanne Lockwood: often 1 and a half car widths wide, which means everyone's on the curbs.
Joanne Lockwood: It means that you've got 0 access for people with wheelchairs or
Joanne Lockwood: pushchairs. And it's actually a nightmare to get out of
Joanne Lockwood: there. I mean, I remember getting lost trying to find my way out. This is
Joanne Lockwood: like 15, 20 minutes. So they're quite dark, what's that?
Joanne Lockwood: Because there's not a lot of light coming in because it's built up,
Joanne Lockwood: creating this sort of like shadow on the streets and it just worries me that
Joanne Lockwood: we're building these estates now and packing people in
Joanne Lockwood: in in the guys that's not being high rise but still suffering that high rise
Joanne Lockwood: mentality where everything's crammed together. There's no room to breathe. Yes,
Joanne Lockwood: there are parks, greenery every so often. But it
Joanne Lockwood: just seems like a fault with kind of future social problems that are gonna
Joanne Lockwood: develop. Yeah. Ted Wright. Again, in
Mushtaq Khan: a tower block with they're called pore doors in that you've got 2
Mushtaq Khan: different entrances. You've got a really nice tower block, and the plush
Mushtaq Khan: entrance is for people who bought their houses around the back
Mushtaq Khan: overlooking the, you know,
Mushtaq Khan: the the bad views, overlooking the poor parts of town are is
Mushtaq Khan: the affordable housing, which is, you know, let through a
Mushtaq Khan: housing association. And the people who
Mushtaq Khan: live in those properties don't have access to the to the gym
Mushtaq Khan: or the car park, and they Jo in through the poor door around the corner.
Mushtaq Khan: And that's what they were called. I mean, you know, there's some major
Mushtaq Khan: issues around how these developments
Mushtaq Khan: are constructed and local authorities, I think, need to
Mushtaq Khan: be a lot stronger, and should have a lot more,
Mushtaq Khan: weight in that the emphasis that they placed. And, you know, these places should
Mushtaq Khan: be indistinguishable from each other.
Joanne Lockwood: Again, is that the bias against the people who are
Joanne Lockwood: in the poor end of society, people who
Joanne Lockwood: don't come from the same privileged background. There's a perception they're going to be
Joanne Lockwood: causing trouble, noise, drugs,
Joanne Lockwood: violence, etcetera, etcetera. So this is the bias that's playing out
Joanne Lockwood: again, pushing some people down lower and raising
Joanne Lockwood: some people higher. Yeah. Would would you say that's unconscious
Mushtaq Khan: bias or some conscious bias or a mixture of both?
Joanne Lockwood: It's definitely bias. I I think it's probably commercial bias
Joanne Lockwood: mixed with unconscious bias. I think there's a is the is
Joanne Lockwood: this conscious about the their perception or the
Joanne Lockwood: perception may be unconscious, but they're conscious about enacting on it.
Joanne Lockwood: So I think there is some business marketing was going on there.
Mushtaq Khan: And there's always been discrimination in the housing market going back to
Mushtaq Khan: the 19 fifties and the no black blacks dogs
Mushtaq Khan: or Irish. They used to go up, you know, in
Mushtaq Khan: many proxies. And, you know, the Commission For Racial Equality in the
Mushtaq Khan: eighties, serving notices on local authorities
Mushtaq Khan: nondiscrimination notice on local authorities saying, look, you're rehousing
Mushtaq Khan: people in particular areas. You shouldn't be doing that. So I think there's a
Mushtaq Khan: long history of discrimination in housing, and it still
Mushtaq Khan: plays itself out to this day. But
Joanne Lockwood: that fuels societal problems in the future again as as we know. It
Joanne Lockwood: creates hotbeds of tension, hotbeds of frustration, which
Joanne Lockwood: erupts. And it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, doesn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? The These people are going to cause trouble therefore they do because of
Joanne Lockwood: the frustrations that amount and it's one
Joanne Lockwood: person, it's always history is written by the victors. So one
Joanne Lockwood: person's right is another person's social justice
Joanne Lockwood: or shouting out for what's right. And too often, we
Joanne Lockwood: don't listen to the people who are asking for basic human
Joanne Lockwood: rights, basic being listened to, basic
Joanne Lockwood: services, and we just brand them as troublemakers and that's
Joanne Lockwood: that seems to be happening time and time again. Yeah. I'm a great
Mushtaq Khan: proponent of having a housing market that's fair for everybody.
Mushtaq Khan: We know that certain groups are disadvantaged in the housing
Mushtaq Khan: market. For example, a third of people
Mushtaq Khan: who are homeless are from a black and minority ethnic background,
Mushtaq Khan: which is far in excess of the population as a whole. And
Mushtaq Khan: homelessness in England is a legal term
Mushtaq Khan: in that you've got to you can only be declared homeless by a
Mushtaq Khan: local authority, so you've got to go and present yourself to the local authority to
Mushtaq Khan: carry out an assessment. So there's a whole load of people who
Mushtaq Khan: are hidden homeless, who are sofa surfers, who don't know the system,
Mushtaq Khan: who can never, you know, Joanne access things. So, you know, the
Mushtaq Khan: housing market itself is a is an unfair market,
Mushtaq Khan: and it has been for many years. And things are coming to coming to a
Mushtaq Khan: head. People think, for example, rough sleeping is
Mushtaq Khan: what homelessness is. It isn't homelessness households or
Mushtaq Khan: people, you know, somewhat wider definition, people who haven't
Mushtaq Khan: got access to an affordable place where they can
Mushtaq Khan: live. You know? And we solved
Mushtaq Khan: it at the beginning of the pandemic by putting everybody who was out
Mushtaq Khan: on the streets in in a hotel because
Mushtaq Khan: we thought that they were gonna they were gonna transmit the virus. But we're back
Mushtaq Khan: now to having homelessness be homeless people on the streets. But
Mushtaq Khan: it's just the it's like the iceberg. You only just see the
Mushtaq Khan: the visible bit. There's a whole, you know, 9 tenths of the problem
Mushtaq Khan: is between the water below the waterline.
Joanne Lockwood: And you said right about we managed to solve the the rough sleeping problem fairly
Joanne Lockwood: quickly before realizing actually living outside
Joanne Lockwood: in the fresh air was probably least risk sticking with
Joanne Lockwood: that. Stick him in a or Lockwood him. In fact, what we did was we
Joanne Lockwood: locked him into hotel rooms and wouldn't even let them leave their room.
Joanne Lockwood: And these people have been used to living in their own community
Joanne Lockwood: with their friends. Many, I believe, many would describe themselves as
Joanne Lockwood: homeless. They had a home. It just didn't have a roof on it. They
Joanne Lockwood: had a community. They had friends. They had a network. Because then when we typically
Joanne Lockwood: stuck in hotel rooms and expected them to be grateful. And
Joanne Lockwood: what what we did was we stripped to the the dignity and freedoms
Joanne Lockwood: under the guise of looking after them without really asking them what they
Joanne Lockwood: wanted. I think that's a typical government, isn't it? We
Joanne Lockwood: use this big mallet to hammer this small nail
Joanne Lockwood: without actually talking to the people. I think we've we haven't we
Joanne Lockwood: haven't actually fixed the problem, have we? No. I mean, people said that homelessness is
Mushtaq Khan: unsolvable. They were that they were you'll always have homeless people. We did solve
Mushtaq Khan: it. We we solved it in 10 days. We don't have, you know,
Mushtaq Khan: we don't have 3 year, 5 year rough sleeping strategies.
Mushtaq Khan: It was solved straight away by finding people who are out on the streets'
Mushtaq Khan: accommodation. But like you say,
Mushtaq Khan: that accommodation needs to be provided
Mushtaq Khan: with some real intensive support because people who are out on the
Mushtaq Khan: streets have, you know, multiple issues, you know,
Mushtaq Khan: massive mental health issues, for example, that need to be
Mushtaq Khan: really explored and worked through with those people
Mushtaq Khan: so they don't go back out onto the streets. But sadly, we're back into that
Mushtaq Khan: situation now.
Joanne Lockwood: So things like yeah. Food banks will be seeing the rise of these of those
Joanne Lockwood: throughout the pandemic. More people fall into poverty. If it wasn't
Joanne Lockwood: for the amnesty on evictions,
Joanne Lockwood: there'd be thousands of people, hundreds of thousands of people evicted by
Joanne Lockwood: now. And that's bubbling up, isn't it? It's gonna it's gonna that
Joanne Lockwood: bowel pressure is gonna happen. We've got normalization of things like food
Mushtaq Khan: banks. I don't remember food banks before 2010, and I
Mushtaq Khan: worked in some of the poorest parts of the country. We think
Mushtaq Khan: it's normal now. We have MPs going to food banks. And opening food
Mushtaq Khan: banks is just I just think it's horrific, the state that we've got
Mushtaq Khan: into where we normalize things which were unimaginable
Mushtaq Khan: 10 or 12 years ago. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: When we do our weekly shopping, we always have one
Joanne Lockwood: bag for somebody else. And we'll we'll shop
Joanne Lockwood: and put put things in there that we would appreciate.
Joanne Lockwood: Maybe not the usual Joanne beans and other we put toiletries,
Joanne Lockwood: sanitary products into that and know that to make not everyone thinks about. And we
Joanne Lockwood: make a very conscious effort to to deposit that. We wouldn't have done that, as
Joanne Lockwood: you say, 10 years ago. No. The state has withdrawn from its
Mushtaq Khan: responsibilities for providing for everybody.
Mushtaq Khan: You know? And it's now gone into loans loans and benefits
Mushtaq Khan: sanctions and things like that, which are unimaginable 10 or 12
Mushtaq Khan: years ago. And you know, like I said, I never remember food banks, never when
Mushtaq Khan: I was growing up, never when, you know, I was working in
Mushtaq Khan: in some really disadvantaged areas, and now it's a normal part of
Mushtaq Khan: society. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm not an
Joanne Lockwood: expert on the types of benefit people can claim, but I'm I'm aware that
Joanne Lockwood: there's so much means testing, so much believability testing. Are
Joanne Lockwood: you are you really incapacitated enough? Are you really disabled enough? Are
Joanne Lockwood: you really unable to work enough? Of course, human nature
Joanne Lockwood: is you're trying to create the best impression of yourself all the time and you've
Joanne Lockwood: almost gotta create the worst impression of yourself in
Joanne Lockwood: these situations because if you can walk from a to b, you're
Joanne Lockwood: deemed to be able to walk. Yes. It's
Joanne Lockwood: frightening what happened. By the way, that wasn't my fault. I don't know whether you
Mushtaq Khan: heard it. No. No. I didn't hear it. It's alright.
Joanne Lockwood: No worries. I've had I've had
Joanne Lockwood: people's numbers phone them up on on the podcast, so don't worry. It's
Joanne Lockwood: used to used to working in a in a COVID COVID friendly
Joanne Lockwood: situation here.
Joanne Lockwood: So I was saying that what was I saying? I was talking about
Joanne Lockwood: I've lost my thread there. Well, I completely forgot what was going on. He was
Joanne Lockwood: talking about normalization of feedbacks, benefits, options.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. The term benefits is, you know, the means testing. Was
Joanne Lockwood: it incapacity benefit, independence payments, they're all
Joanne Lockwood: so linked. So many people have been denied access.
Joanne Lockwood: This not only impacts their ability to stay in a in a home they
Joanne Lockwood: have, but also feed the family, heat.
Joanne Lockwood: So many conflicting priorities going on in people's lives these days, isn't it? Just just
Joanne Lockwood: to survive. Yeah. I think the benefit system always reminds me of the insurance
Mushtaq Khan: system. It's designed to make sure that you get as little as
Mushtaq Khan: you possibly can with the most amount of effort.
Mushtaq Khan: You know, probably I'm an advocate of a universal
Mushtaq Khan: benefit for everybody, whether they're working or not, just to do away
Mushtaq Khan: with some of the stigma and to make sure that everybody can have a
Mushtaq Khan: reasonable standard of living. I think in the future
Mushtaq Khan: as work more and more work gets automated, it might
Mushtaq Khan: be something that we as a society we move we move towards.
Joanne Lockwood: Well, there's a quick book I read. Rook and Brickman
Joanne Lockwood: is Utopia for Realists. I don't know if you've ever read it, but
Joanne Lockwood: he discusses all about UBI, universal policing income Joanne he
Joanne Lockwood: poses thought that rich people have squandered
Joanne Lockwood: far more money than someone who is considered
Joanne Lockwood: poor will ever do. Jo, yet we associate people who
Joanne Lockwood: are poor as being untrustworthy, incapable of managing money.
Joanne Lockwood: So they're incapable of managing money, they don't have money to manage with. Money
Joanne Lockwood: is always trying to work out the next priority,
Joanne Lockwood: survival. Whereas when you have lots of money, you'll squander
Joanne Lockwood: on luxuries, non essential items, etcetera, etcetera. So you
Joanne Lockwood: care less about money the more you have. So by empowering people with
Joanne Lockwood: UBI, we're actually creating an environment where people can start to think
Joanne Lockwood: about tomorrow, next week, the week after, rather
Joanne Lockwood: than thinking about this afternoon, how am I gonna feed my kids when they go
Joanne Lockwood: home to school? That's the challenge of getting people out of poverty
Joanne Lockwood: or onto onto a universal basic income level
Joanne Lockwood: where we they know that they they can actually start planning
Joanne Lockwood: what's gonna happen. And 0 contracts don't help because people can't plan around
Joanne Lockwood: those. Gig workers, yes, I know it suits some, but it doesn't
Joanne Lockwood: suit everybody and it was causing situations where people just can't plan their
Joanne Lockwood: lives. They can't save their rent. They can't
Joanne Lockwood: pay their children. They can't put shoes on on their feet
Joanne Lockwood: because they can't plan where their money is gonna come from. And that's that really
Joanne Lockwood: is kind of, you know, if you think about the
Joanne Lockwood: elements of mental health, it's being able to have agency and
Joanne Lockwood: plan. If you can't do that, that it really impacts your ability
Joanne Lockwood: to function as a human being. Absolutely right. I
Mushtaq Khan: think it's it's an important debate and one that we we're suddenly
Mushtaq Khan: not having at the moment even as we're coming out
Mushtaq Khan: of a pandemic. You know, how are things gonna be different
Mushtaq Khan: for us in the future? I mean, a universal UBI,
Mushtaq Khan: universal basic income is really important, I think, as part of that.
Joanne Lockwood: But we don't see any political party, whatever whatever side of the
Joanne Lockwood: spectrum you're on, really talking about this problem, whether
Joanne Lockwood: it's UBI or whether it's really tackling
Joanne Lockwood: social housing, housing, affordability. No one's really looking
Joanne Lockwood: at this, are they? It's all around national health. It's the big
Joanne Lockwood: political at the
Joanne Lockwood: start guys we always get is NHS. Aren't they wonderful? We've got to
Joanne Lockwood: protect the NHS. What about Yeah. The people? I think
Mushtaq Khan: housing has been described as
Mushtaq Khan: always the dog that doesn't bark during election campaigns. People
Mushtaq Khan: talk about it, but it never comes
Mushtaq Khan: up as some major policy other than
Mushtaq Khan: an emphasis on homeownership. I think
Mushtaq Khan: increasingly, though, people have recognized the seriousness of the
Mushtaq Khan: housing crisis, the lack of
Mushtaq Khan: suitable affordable housing for far too many
Mushtaq Khan: people. And I think as time goes on,
Mushtaq Khan: it'll become more and more of an issue because the NHS and
Mushtaq Khan: housing are in strict what's the word, in
Mushtaq Khan: pricibly? How do you say it? Precisely linked. Precisely linked. Yeah. That's
Mushtaq Khan: Yeah. In that, if you have
Mushtaq Khan: a decent, secure affordable home, it affects your mental
Mushtaq Khan: health, it affects your physical health and your overall
Mushtaq Khan: well-being. And I think it's really important to have,
Mushtaq Khan: you know, housing that is suitable and affordable
Mushtaq Khan: and have a really good standard so that you can
Mushtaq Khan: lessen the expenditure on all the services.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Well, we've also seen in the last
Joanne Lockwood: 12, 14 months, the magic money tree that
Joanne Lockwood: suddenly sprung up to plow into COVID
Joanne Lockwood: had a fraction of that being plowed into UBI,
Joanne Lockwood: a lot of the problems we have in society wouldn't just wouldn't be there, would
Joanne Lockwood: they? We wouldn't have this we wouldn't have had to have the job
Joanne Lockwood: support scheme. We wouldn't have had to have some of the other schemes we had
Joanne Lockwood: because the basic UBI would have been there, meaning nobody was gonna
Joanne Lockwood: fall through those cracks rather than having to invent something on the fly.
Joanne Lockwood: And then as soon as it's working, pull it away again and just
Joanne Lockwood: pull that rug out. Or you could have invested swimmer in
Mushtaq Khan: housing because COVID is a disease of the poor.
Mushtaq Khan: You know, if you live in poor quality accommodation, you've got no
Mushtaq Khan: outdoor space. You may be overcrowded
Mushtaq Khan: in your own accommodation. You
Mushtaq Khan: know, your health is poor so that you can't actually go out
Mushtaq Khan: and exercise and those sort of things, and you've been locked down for the past
Mushtaq Khan: 12 months. And, you know, I've come across people who've never left their
Mushtaq Khan: house since last March. I think,
Mushtaq Khan: you know, investment in housing that should, you know, should have been a
Mushtaq Khan: critical part of any post COVID recovery?
Joanne Lockwood: I I found that myself. I I work from home during
Joanne Lockwood: the the lockdown periods. The only reason I was going out was shopping, and most
Joanne Lockwood: of the time we were shopping online. When it was wet and windy,
Joanne Lockwood: I wasn't going out getting exercise. I found myself getting
Joanne Lockwood: kind of more institutionalized, more like a caged polar bear.
Joanne Lockwood: I was wandering around my 10 square meters of property
Joanne Lockwood: that I had. I found my own mental health
Joanne Lockwood: suffering and as a result of that, the
Joanne Lockwood: NHS are very focused on this term, PJ paralysis. The longer you spend
Joanne Lockwood: in your pajamas when you're in the hospital, over the age of, I
Joanne Lockwood: think it's 60 or 70, every day can
Joanne Lockwood: knock a week off of your life sort of thing. So if you're spending weeks
Joanne Lockwood: weeks in there, your outcome when you leave hospital having spent all
Joanne Lockwood: that time laying in bed, your muscles atrophy, your
Joanne Lockwood: your your whole well-being suffers. So we've got to keep people active, you know. I
Joanne Lockwood: mean, you said at the beginning that you're still playing football and tennis and
Joanne Lockwood: recently given up cricket. But I've learned the importance
Joanne Lockwood: of the last 14 months to be more active because
Joanne Lockwood: I feel myself as a 56 year old starting to
Joanne Lockwood: realize that if I don't, in 5 years
Joanne Lockwood: time, my health will suffer badly if I suppose.
Mushtaq Khan: Yeah. I don't disagree. It's it's really important that people
Mushtaq Khan: are active and that we have communities and spaces where
Mushtaq Khan: people can be active. And, you know, it's
Mushtaq Khan: again if you're middle class, you've got sharp elbows, you get the
Mushtaq Khan: best deal in everything. And I just think, you know, many of the poor
Mushtaq Khan: communities have been poorer communities have been left behind in this
Mushtaq Khan: pandemic, and it has exasperated major
Mushtaq Khan: inequalities in society.
Joanne Lockwood: We're now focusing on sustainability, environmental.
Joanne Lockwood: Again, is this about the the richer, more privileged you are, the
Joanne Lockwood: sharper hours you have? I get it. I gotta be living in cleaner
Joanne Lockwood: environments. Can some of
Joanne Lockwood: the less buy off people in society afford to electrify their
Joanne Lockwood: cars? Can they afford charging points? Can they afford whatever it may
Joanne Lockwood: be? Well, again, we'll see this massive divide
Joanne Lockwood: between houses that are for the
Joanne Lockwood: future and houses that are just legacy and not being invested
Joanne Lockwood: in? Yeah. I
Mushtaq Khan: think houses and neighborhoods need to be sustainable.
Mushtaq Khan: Sustainable in terms of the property itself, but the
Mushtaq Khan: surrounding area, open space, health
Mushtaq Khan: facilities, education facilities, transport
Mushtaq Khan: is a major issue as well. I always remember going
Mushtaq Khan: back to 2010 when the last labor government
Mushtaq Khan: introduced the equalities act, and they had 9 protective characteristics.
Mushtaq Khan: And I've always thought that there should be a 10th protective characteristic, which is
Mushtaq Khan: class, and that public organizations should take into
Mushtaq Khan: account their decisions, the
Mushtaq Khan: the effect that it has on different neighborhoods and
Mushtaq Khan: different social classes because I think we would have a very different world
Mushtaq Khan: if a local authority would, for example, would have to think
Mushtaq Khan: about transport and health in terms
Mushtaq Khan: of class rather than in terms of ethnicity and disability.
Mushtaq Khan: In many respects, I think class is the biggest determinant of whether you
Mushtaq Khan: succeed in life rather than any of the other
Mushtaq Khan: characteristics. Yeah. For sure.
Joanne Lockwood: And and class is made up a whole load of different dimensions, isn't it? It's
Joanne Lockwood: not just the class you're born into, but it's a
Joanne Lockwood: lot of it today the more modern definition of class is your
Joanne Lockwood: educational achievement, your your first Jo, if you
Joanne Lockwood: like, or what size family you came from, what size
Joanne Lockwood: family you're in. There's all the dynamics about your earning potential that comes
Joanne Lockwood: into class these days. I think there's Jo many
Joanne Lockwood: nouveau riche and internet millionaires that have come from
Joanne Lockwood: nowhere and footballers, etcetera. So there's the old the old
Joanne Lockwood: definition of class is kind of well, we need to redefine what do we
Joanne Lockwood: mean by class, I suppose. Yeah. I mean,
Mushtaq Khan: when I was studying it, it was a,
Mushtaq Khan: b, c one, c two, d and e. You know, your social
Mushtaq Khan: classes were defined by a social scientist as one of the the
Mushtaq Khan: job you know, it's about your job the job market. I think the job market
Mushtaq Khan: has changed so much. You probably got a lot of people at the
Mushtaq Khan: top and a load of people at the bottom and less so
Mushtaq Khan: in the middle. And maybe the biggest divider in society
Mushtaq Khan: is age, education,
Mushtaq Khan: leave and remain. You know? You know, the
Mushtaq Khan: the the way that you look at divisions in society are very different now. And
Mushtaq Khan: you can predict people's behavior based on whether they
Mushtaq Khan: graduate or not, whether they voted leave or whether they voted remain.
Mushtaq Khan: You know? There's there's just different ways of looking at society. I
Mushtaq Khan: mean, David Goodhart talks about,
Mushtaq Khan: the these somewheres, anywheres, and in between us. You know?
Mushtaq Khan: People, you know, it classifies people differently.
Mushtaq Khan: It's a fascinating subject. I'm not sure what the best way of looking at it
Mushtaq Khan: is, but you've got to look at things in a different way now when
Mushtaq Khan: when it comes to class and, you know, definitions of classes
Mushtaq Khan: is is an important area that we need to think about.
Joanne Lockwood: I think you're right about the in betweeners because often those are the
Joanne Lockwood: ones that fit nowhere. If you're
Joanne Lockwood: proud working class in a community, you've often got a support
Joanne Lockwood: network around your local community. As you say, if you're upper class
Joanne Lockwood: working class, you have somewhere to reside. But if you're kind of
Joanne Lockwood: in this lost class, where is your
Joanne Lockwood: tribe? Where are the people who will support you? There are
Joanne Lockwood: people who understand you. Those are the people sometimes getting they have holes in
Joanne Lockwood: the cracks where it's people who have traditionally been safe,
Joanne Lockwood: secured you know, in work, but their
Joanne Lockwood: wages aren't keeping pace with their cost of living, they're falling further and
Joanne Lockwood: further behind, they're getting into debt, credit cards are
Joanne Lockwood: mounting, payday loans, etcetera, etcetera. Those people are really struggling.
Joanne Lockwood: And they're one bad decision around being hopeless on there
Joanne Lockwood: and that's some of the trouble we face.
Mushtaq Khan: Yeah. It's a really fascinating area, and
Mushtaq Khan: I think, society as a whole needs to
Mushtaq Khan: pay more attention to, you you know, the
Mushtaq Khan: impact of major public decisions on,
Mushtaq Khan: you know, people from different backgrounds and not have a
Mushtaq Khan: one size fits all approach.
Joanne Lockwood: You mentioned Brexit remained just then. Do you think there's gonna
Joanne Lockwood: be yet more
Joanne Lockwood: division in society around those people who
Joanne Lockwood: perceive themselves to be British and those
Joanne Lockwood: who are perceived to be not British, whatever that may
Joanne Lockwood: mean? Are we gonna see xenophobic type rise
Joanne Lockwood: or do you think society will survive this? So I
Mushtaq Khan: in 2000, I spent a lot of time working in Oldham,
Mushtaq Khan: like I mentioned previously, which is a segregated
Mushtaq Khan: town, different communities living in different
Mushtaq Khan: parts of town. And there were
Mushtaq Khan: riots there in 2,001 which,
Mushtaq Khan: you know, I'm not sure the town has has recovered from, but, you know, it's
Mushtaq Khan: making great strides. And a lot of the work that we
Mushtaq Khan: did in the housing sector was about
Mushtaq Khan: dispelling myths and trying to bring communities together.
Mushtaq Khan: And I think, sadly, over the last year or 2, we've not done
Mushtaq Khan: as much work as a society about
Mushtaq Khan: looking at what we have in common and what brings us together.
Mushtaq Khan: It's mostly been around division
Mushtaq Khan: and divide and Joanne us and them.
Mushtaq Khan: And I think as a society or as a political class,
Mushtaq Khan: that has played well. And it's, you know,
Mushtaq Khan: I think at the heart of much of the work that housing
Mushtaq Khan: organization should be doing was around cohesion and about bringing people
Mushtaq Khan: together and recognizing and talking
Mushtaq Khan: about our differences. There's a really good
Mushtaq Khan: project in Sheffield called who is my neighbor who we had on one of
Mushtaq Khan: our housing diversity network webinars who's who Jo
Mushtaq Khan: and talk to people in neighborhoods
Mushtaq Khan: about the change that is occurring and how they feel about
Mushtaq Khan: it. And they often feel that's the first time anybody's ever talked to
Mushtaq Khan: them. You know? And the first time that they've managed to, you
Mushtaq Khan: know, listen to what their fears are about the pace of
Mushtaq Khan: change, about the things that are happening in their
Mushtaq Khan: local area and how it affects them. And I think
Mushtaq Khan: we've not done that as a society. You know, it plays
Mushtaq Khan: well to certain elements of the political class to keep that going, to
Mushtaq Khan: keep that divide and rule going because,
Mushtaq Khan: you know, for example, older
Mushtaq Khan: home owning people are more likely to work to
Mushtaq Khan: vote in a particular direction?
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I mean, that's some of the work I'm I'm doing with the Housing
Joanne Lockwood: Diverse Network and, yeah, the work we're doing together is that
Joanne Lockwood: very much around the community focus. I think what you picked out
Joanne Lockwood: there, people often just want to be listened to, But in order to be
Joanne Lockwood: listened to, you've got to find them. You've got to reach out and
Joanne Lockwood: locate the people and then make time for them because too often
Joanne Lockwood: we we create a stereotype. We just look people and
Joanne Lockwood: say, oh, we'll assume they all think this, but we often don't
Joanne Lockwood: really go and talk to individual communities. People in the communities
Joanne Lockwood: understand their needs and struggles. Obviously in the
Joanne Lockwood: conversations I've had with the housing associations who are very progressive, very well
Joanne Lockwood: meaning and trying to do the right thing is they often
Joanne Lockwood: don't hear everybody. And I think the example you talked about at the beginning
Joanne Lockwood: was the digitalization
Joanne Lockwood: of service, the online payment methods that really
Joanne Lockwood: recognize that some of the people who are most struggling in society don't have
Joanne Lockwood: access to what we treat now as the norm.
Joanne Lockwood: I had to get one of my relatives to sign a document the other
Joanne Lockwood: day and they don't have Internet at home, they don't
Joanne Lockwood: have a laptop, they've got a phone and that just about
Joanne Lockwood: catch the Internet. So when someone glibly said, oh, just get get
Joanne Lockwood: to sign the PDF just and then send it back. He's
Joanne Lockwood: like, I must have been talking Irish or Spanish
Joanne Lockwood: or Portuguese or something to my relative and they wanted it
Joanne Lockwood: printed out. Of course, I don't have a printer, they don't have a printer
Joanne Lockwood: and the organization that was sending it didn't really understand what the
Joanne Lockwood: trouble was. Jo again, it's a disconnect between people who
Joanne Lockwood: are not digital or not thinking like you
Joanne Lockwood: do and creating these services that are accessible.
Joanne Lockwood: And that's that's some of the challenge that we we often forget about. Yeah.
Mushtaq Khan: And it's another one of the divides, the digital divide as well between
Mushtaq Khan: people who are familiar with the new ways of working
Mushtaq Khan: and those who who aren't and, you know, aren't familiar
Mushtaq Khan: and have never embraced some of the new
Mushtaq Khan: ways that we work.
Joanne Lockwood: Well, it's been amazing. We've been chatting for almost an hour.
Joanne Lockwood: So do you wanna tell us a little bit more about the work you do
Joanne Lockwood: at Housing Diversity Network and if you're anybody
Joanne Lockwood: out there who's in the housing sector, what services do you offer
Joanne Lockwood: and how can you help? So very briefly, Housing Diversity
Mushtaq Khan: Network is a not for profit. We work in probably
Mushtaq Khan: 4 main areas, leadership and governance. We do
Mushtaq Khan: a lot of work with exec teams and boards to make
Mushtaq Khan: the organization more inclusive. There's been an enormous
Mushtaq Khan: focus about making boards more diverse.
Mushtaq Khan: And we've been really concentrating on
Mushtaq Khan: that over the past 12 months. We do a lot of
Mushtaq Khan: workforce development too,
Mushtaq Khan: everything from training to having mentoring program. We've
Mushtaq Khan: got a flagship staff mentoring program for people who want
Mushtaq Khan: to move on in their careers, who are just stuck.
Mushtaq Khan: And most of the people on our mentoring programs are women or people from
Mushtaq Khan: minority backgrounds. And we also do some work on services
Mushtaq Khan: to the community, you know, making sure that you work,
Mushtaq Khan: you listen to the communities, and are responsive to
Mushtaq Khan: their needs. And we have an accreditation program as well, which
Mushtaq Khan: is a bit like what used to be called the audit commission used to
Mushtaq Khan: come in and inspect organizations,
Mushtaq Khan: come to a judgment based on the evidence that you've got.
Mushtaq Khan: And the accreditation program that we have has really picked up for housing
Mushtaq Khan: organizations because they just see us laying down a marker
Mushtaq Khan: saying, look, this is where we are in terms of equality and
Mushtaq Khan: diversity and inclusion, and this is what we want to do next.
Mushtaq Khan: Jo Housing Diversity Network is a membership organization
Mushtaq Khan: too. Our membership has grown a lot over the last 12
Mushtaq Khan: months. We want to continue we
Mushtaq Khan: we want to continue growing and provide services
Mushtaq Khan: across the sector. Excellent.
Joanne Lockwood: And you mentioned about the housing, the board diversity
Joanne Lockwood: program. I mean, I've had some experience. There's a real push
Joanne Lockwood: now to become more representative of the communities, which
Joanne Lockwood: I'm sure you'd agree is really, really important for this listening
Joanne Lockwood: and being relevant again, isn't it? Yes. So we
Mushtaq Khan: know that housing association boards tend to
Mushtaq Khan: be on the older side, people who are
Mushtaq Khan: tired and have got skills in the areas
Mushtaq Khan: of risk or financial management. And
Mushtaq Khan: they don't reflect the communities that they
Mushtaq Khan: serve. Sometimes there's groupthink.
Mushtaq Khan: They're not as close to the community. They're not aware of
Mushtaq Khan: new developments. And our board diversity programs that
Mushtaq Khan: we have are help with recruitment
Mushtaq Khan: and help with succession planning because you can't magic up a diverse
Mushtaq Khan: board overnight. Sometimes you've got to go out and recruit some
Mushtaq Khan: people as trainees Jo that in
Mushtaq Khan: the the next 12 to 18 months, they're in a position
Mushtaq Khan: to apply for vacancies as and when they occur. So board
Mushtaq Khan: diversity is critically important if you want to be a growing and
Mushtaq Khan: thriving organization in today's world.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And that's not just housing associations. It's
Joanne Lockwood: NHS Trust, CCGs. We know the Ned
Joanne Lockwood: market and the
Joanne Lockwood: specialists who do a lot of these these work are
Joanne Lockwood: portfolio holders, and they tend to be, as you say,
Joanne Lockwood: a typical type of person, often older,
Joanne Lockwood: often retired, often had a certain background.
Joanne Lockwood: And I think it's really important for the growth of services in
Joanne Lockwood: all sectors to think about bringing in people
Joanne Lockwood: who are have different lived experience and invest in the training
Joanne Lockwood: because a lot of the requirement to be a a net or a non executive
Joanne Lockwood: director is you tend to have to have had a portfolio or
Joanne Lockwood: opportunity in the past. Again, that's excluding
Joanne Lockwood: people who don't necessarily have a depreciation of the Companies Act, who
Joanne Lockwood: don't have unsettled governance risk and how do you become your
Joanne Lockwood: first how do you bring your first portfolio in
Joanne Lockwood: until you've had one start. So I I think it's critically important if we don't
Joanne Lockwood: tap into people from minority underrepresented communities to
Joanne Lockwood: provide them that pathway. Yeah. I'll be interested in your views on
Mushtaq Khan: this, Jo, because you've been work hand
Mushtaq Khan: holding a housing organization right from the beginning of the
Mushtaq Khan: process so that they Joanne, get a
Mushtaq Khan: more diverse intake into that board. How how
Mushtaq Khan: have you found that? What have you had to do to help them along the
Mushtaq Khan: way? Well, it's been a couple of times where
Joanne Lockwood: it's almost like this nervousness of
Joanne Lockwood: we must have this, this is avatar of the person they want
Joanne Lockwood: and it's really hard to break that mold and say imagine that
Joanne Lockwood: this person was completely different to what you're thinking.
Joanne Lockwood: And you can almost see them like there's a quiver of fear,
Joanne Lockwood: letting someone different onto the board. And I even and I even
Joanne Lockwood: challenged them. I said, Jo what would it look like if this person didn't speak
Joanne Lockwood: English as a first language Joanne you had to provide an
Joanne Lockwood: interpreter at the board meeting? And there was this, again, this kind of
Joanne Lockwood: like, well, that wouldn't work, we need to better, so if you couldn't think about
Joanne Lockwood: true diversity, true representation of your community,
Joanne Lockwood: There's somebody who may not speak English as the first language, in which case, you
Joanne Lockwood: shouldn't discriminate or pull them out because of that. And how
Joanne Lockwood: do we work, make that reasonable adjustment the way around it? Or if you always
Joanne Lockwood: hold your board meetings at 10 o'clock on a Tuesday, you may
Joanne Lockwood: be limiting the access to younger parents or
Joanne Lockwood: single parents who can't tell at times. So how do you how do you bring
Joanne Lockwood: those people into it? But this is real resistance of but then
Joanne Lockwood: once you once you talk and you spend time
Joanne Lockwood: explaining how this could work, it starts to
Joanne Lockwood: soften and starts to melt. But there's there's still this
Joanne Lockwood: this comfort blanket of the CV, this comfort blanket of a track
Joanne Lockwood: record, this comfort blanking of hitting the ground running. If you've got
Joanne Lockwood: a board of often 13 or 14 people,
Joanne Lockwood: most of the key compliance and governance box are being
Joanne Lockwood: ticked already. Your main committees are already being resourced. So
Joanne Lockwood: you've got the opportunity to bring people in really just
Joanne Lockwood: for their perspective and then
Joanne Lockwood: bring them onto the committee, then bring them into other roles. As you said, the
Joanne Lockwood: trainee, the apprentice, Ned, whatever you wanna describe the role.
Joanne Lockwood: That's what we need to do is we need to bring people and let them
Joanne Lockwood: believe that it is for them as well. And it's not just
Joanne Lockwood: for the traditional, often white, often
Joanne Lockwood: middle class, often retired face in the room.
Mushtaq Khan: Yeah. We're doing some work with a cooperative, which is the purest
Mushtaq Khan: way of running a housing estate. And they have
Mushtaq Khan: got we're doing some board development work with them. They've
Mushtaq Khan: got 8 people who are coming on the program. And
Mushtaq Khan: 2 of those, their English is very poor, but they're a vital
Mushtaq Khan: component of the management of that estate. So we've got
Mushtaq Khan: to think through how can we do some board development, which is personal
Mushtaq Khan: development as well as attending some workshops.
Mushtaq Khan: And we can make it as inclusive so that those people can attend and get
Mushtaq Khan: the best out of it. But, you know, those 2 people whose English isn't
Mushtaq Khan: as good actually add a lot to the management of that
Mushtaq Khan: cooperative. Oh, one of the challenges I've
Joanne Lockwood: I've heard when I speak to some of housing associations and their
Joanne Lockwood: teams is that it's really hard to get resident engagement.
Joanne Lockwood: Not everybody wants to be an activist, not everybody wants to give their time
Joanne Lockwood: up. They just want a house, they just want a home, they just want to
Joanne Lockwood: live. And so sometimes we're asking too
Joanne Lockwood: much of people, where people
Joanne Lockwood: really just don't expect to be asked that question. You don't go
Joanne Lockwood: into your bank and they say, do you want to come on the committee? Do
Joanne Lockwood: you want to come and talk about the service you've had today? Do you want
Joanne Lockwood: to be a part of a feedback group? So the housing associations
Joanne Lockwood: need to develop a way of involving themselves in the communities and
Joanne Lockwood: reaching out in a way that works, not expecting the residents to
Joanne Lockwood: come to them all the time. And that could be door to door knocking,
Joanne Lockwood: sitting down, having a chat, more 1 to 1 sessions,
Joanne Lockwood: and just putting more time and effort to find out what people are really thinking.
Mushtaq Khan: Yeah. We've all been there. We've all been 7:30 on a wet Tuesday
Mushtaq Khan: night in a committee room where most people want to be watching Coronation
Mushtaq Khan: Street, but we've dragged them along to a committee meeting.
Mushtaq Khan: Again, you've got, you know, average age of the people in there is probably about
Mushtaq Khan: 72. They're not representative of the tenant
Mushtaq Khan: base. Our our views are that you should be using
Mushtaq Khan: techniques like yourself, like you said yourself. Door
Mushtaq Khan: knocking, you should be incentivizing people to attend. You should be using Facebook
Mushtaq Khan: and social media to get feedback. You know, there are different ways of
Mushtaq Khan: doing it rather than the standard committee room model.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Yeah. Which appeals to the parish council
Joanne Lockwood: type mentality or the the people who like that traditional old
Joanne Lockwood: school meeting. But many people got anxiety about speaking in
Joanne Lockwood: public. They've got, they've got commitments. They can't give out
Joanne Lockwood: the time. So, yeah, it's completely as I the
Joanne Lockwood: expression I love is when people are hard to reach, you have to reach
Joanne Lockwood: harder. I think that applies to so many cases, And that's
Joanne Lockwood: customer engagement is is exactly that, reach harder if you're not
Joanne Lockwood: hearing from people. Well, that's
Joanne Lockwood: our that's our hour and a bit. Well done. Brilliant. Thank you. I really really
Joanne Lockwood: love the conversation. I hope I didn't come across as muddled
Mushtaq Khan: in some ways. Sometimes I'm just thinking ahead of what I'm saying, you
Mushtaq Khan: see. No. I thought you were fantastic.
Joanne Lockwood: Hopefully, our listeners, thank you for tuning in. Thank you for listening.
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Joanne Lockwood: how can I improve, tell me what you'd like to hear from? Oh, absolute
Joanne Lockwood: pleasure. My name is Joanne Lockwood and it's been
Joanne Lockwood: awesome and a pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next
Joanne Lockwood: time. Bye.