WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.399 --> 00:00:10.224 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the 2 00:00:10.224 --> 00:00:13.985 Inclusion By Its podcast. In this series, I've interviewed a number of 3 00:00:13.985 --> 00:00:17.720 amazing people and simply had a conversation around the subject of inclusion, 4 00:00:18.099 --> 00:00:21.779 belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to 5 00:00:21.779 --> 00:00:25.025 thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me 6 00:00:25.025 --> 00:00:26.164 a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 7 00:00:29.265 --> 00:00:33.110 That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You 8 00:00:33.110 --> 00:00:36.790 can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify, and the 9 00:00:36.790 --> 00:00:40.635 usual places. So plug in the headphones, grab a decaf, 10 00:00:40.934 --> 00:00:44.695 and let's get going. Today is episode 11 00:00:44.695 --> 00:00:48.410 37 with the title Homes For Heroes. 12 00:00:48.950 --> 00:00:52.710 And I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by a great friend 13 00:00:52.710 --> 00:00:56.545 and colleague, Mushtaq Khan. Mushtaq describes himself as someone 14 00:00:56.545 --> 00:00:59.905 who helps the health social housing sector become more 15 00:00:59.905 --> 00:01:03.285 inclusive. When I asked Mushtaq to describe his superpower, 16 00:01:03.610 --> 00:01:06.990 he said that he's still going strong and active in his fifties, 17 00:01:07.290 --> 00:01:10.970 playing football and tennis. Hello, Mushtaq. Welcome to the 18 00:01:10.970 --> 00:01:14.575 show. Thanks, Joanne. It's really good to be on the 19 00:01:14.575 --> 00:01:18.255 show. We've got to know each other really well over the last 20 00:01:18.255 --> 00:01:21.300 12 months, although we've never met in person. 21 00:01:22.240 --> 00:01:25.920 I'd like to say we've got a really good working relationship, and I 22 00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:28.740 value your input into the housing sector. 23 00:01:30.315 --> 00:01:33.935 Thanks, Mushtaq. So when we checked earlier, you're talking about 24 00:01:33.995 --> 00:01:36.960 homes for heroes. What do you mean by that? 25 00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:41.520 So when I did my housing studies course, we 26 00:01:41.520 --> 00:01:45.295 did a little bit about World War 1 and people 27 00:01:45.615 --> 00:01:49.395 returning from the trenches and British politicians saying that 28 00:01:49.854 --> 00:01:53.215 we wanted homes fit for heroes. And I 29 00:01:53.215 --> 00:01:56.170 think it's just as important now, 30 00:01:57.750 --> 00:02:01.509 2021, we've got a housing crisis. In fact, we've 31 00:02:01.509 --> 00:02:04.915 got multiple housing crises across the 32 00:02:04.915 --> 00:02:08.375 country. And it's really important 33 00:02:08.514 --> 00:02:11.895 that we, as a society, can 34 00:02:12.275 --> 00:02:16.099 build homes and houses that 35 00:02:16.099 --> 00:02:19.540 are suitable for today's needs and that can help 36 00:02:19.540 --> 00:02:23.385 people, live and thrive and be the 37 00:02:23.385 --> 00:02:26.985 best that they can be. So you say 38 00:02:26.985 --> 00:02:30.620 housing crisis, where's that come from? Is it 39 00:02:30.760 --> 00:02:34.600 snuck up on us, or is it a a a steady rot? I 40 00:02:34.600 --> 00:02:38.280 think we've had a major housing crisis probably for the last 30 or 41 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:41.835 40 years. Governments of all persuasions 42 00:02:42.135 --> 00:02:45.655 have pushed homeownership, as the 43 00:02:45.655 --> 00:02:48.715 tenure of choice, and homeownership has its place. 44 00:02:50.250 --> 00:02:53.930 We've had a denigration of social rented 45 00:02:53.930 --> 00:02:57.765 housing. We've had a load of houses that have been sold 46 00:02:57.765 --> 00:03:01.444 off through the right to buy. We 47 00:03:01.444 --> 00:03:04.680 have got children 48 00:03:04.900 --> 00:03:08.660 who Jo parents and children who've got issues because 49 00:03:08.660 --> 00:03:11.879 their children can't afford to get on the housing market. 50 00:03:12.205 --> 00:03:15.985 We've got large swathes of the country which are unaffordable. London, 51 00:03:16.045 --> 00:03:19.805 for example, is unaffordable and many of the our 52 00:03:19.805 --> 00:03:23.230 cities aren't affordable. And people are 53 00:03:23.230 --> 00:03:26.990 spending far more of their income on housing 54 00:03:26.990 --> 00:03:30.670 than I than I feel that they should be. So we've not got 55 00:03:30.670 --> 00:03:34.125 enough houses. Those that we've got are probably in the wrong 56 00:03:34.125 --> 00:03:37.645 place, and those that we've got haven't been 57 00:03:37.645 --> 00:03:40.465 refurbished and bought up to today's standards either. 58 00:03:42.040 --> 00:03:45.640 I suppose that was highlighted by what tragedy such as 59 00:03:45.640 --> 00:03:48.460 Grenfell where building regs, 60 00:03:49.275 --> 00:03:53.035 contractors, housing stock ownership is maybe not socially 61 00:03:53.035 --> 00:03:56.635 responsible as it should be. No. So Grenfell is 62 00:03:56.635 --> 00:04:00.090 a it sums up all that's wrong with the housing 63 00:04:00.390 --> 00:04:04.230 field at the moment and that you have got some of the poorest people in 64 00:04:04.230 --> 00:04:07.965 society living in the heart of one of the 65 00:04:07.965 --> 00:04:11.265 richest boroughs in the country. And 66 00:04:11.325 --> 00:04:13.825 those, people were 67 00:04:15.020 --> 00:04:18.860 shut off from the rest of society and that the local authority 68 00:04:18.860 --> 00:04:22.000 which ran those houses decided to clad 69 00:04:22.620 --> 00:04:26.375 their tower block in material 70 00:04:26.514 --> 00:04:30.354 that was flammable to make it, the because it was one of the 71 00:04:30.354 --> 00:04:34.100 cheapest options. And it was to shut off those people from the rest 72 00:04:34.340 --> 00:04:38.100 of of societies like, seen but not 73 00:04:38.100 --> 00:04:41.940 heard. And almost all the people who died from the 74 00:04:41.940 --> 00:04:44.915 tragedy were from a black and minority ethnic background. 75 00:04:47.075 --> 00:04:50.855 4 years on, we still have the ramifications, the 76 00:04:51.550 --> 00:04:55.150 inquiries still going on, whether 77 00:04:55.150 --> 00:04:58.910 anybody will ever get prosecuted or whether any sanctions will 78 00:04:58.910 --> 00:05:00.850 apply. You know, it's open to question. 79 00:05:03.925 --> 00:05:07.625 Is it a British problem, a UK problem? 80 00:05:07.845 --> 00:05:10.824 How does social housing work in other countries in Europe? 81 00:05:11.640 --> 00:05:15.260 So I think homeownership and the emphasis on homeownership 82 00:05:15.640 --> 00:05:19.420 is a particularly British problem. I know that many European 83 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:22.555 countries have got a far more thriving 84 00:05:23.575 --> 00:05:27.175 private rented sector and a social housing 85 00:05:27.175 --> 00:05:29.835 sector in places like Holland, for example. 86 00:05:30.830 --> 00:05:34.669 And they also have much more regulation and control over the private 87 00:05:34.669 --> 00:05:38.085 rented sector. You have rent controls, for example, which we 88 00:05:38.085 --> 00:05:41.845 had for many years up until the sixties and 89 00:05:41.845 --> 00:05:45.605 beyond, and they've been steadily whittled 90 00:05:45.605 --> 00:05:49.300 away to having no rent controls in the private rented 91 00:05:49.300 --> 00:05:53.080 sector. I mean, I'm a big proponent 92 00:05:53.220 --> 00:05:56.735 of having a private rented sector that is well regulated 93 00:05:57.755 --> 00:06:01.355 where landlords are monitored and where the 94 00:06:01.355 --> 00:06:05.170 standard of properties is is is of a high standard 95 00:06:05.290 --> 00:06:08.830 Joanne rents are are controlled, and we just simply 96 00:06:08.830 --> 00:06:12.285 haven't got that source of issue. I mean, you know, the private rented 97 00:06:12.285 --> 00:06:16.045 sector in large parts of the country is poorly managed. It's 98 00:06:16.045 --> 00:06:19.810 of low quality, and it's a 99 00:06:19.810 --> 00:06:22.310 dumping ground for people who can't go anywhere else. 100 00:06:24.050 --> 00:06:27.490 I've had one of the other troubles we have at the moment is is 101 00:06:27.490 --> 00:06:30.664 is tenure. Jo the leases 102 00:06:31.125 --> 00:06:34.585 tend to be in private rented sector for 12 months time 103 00:06:35.125 --> 00:06:38.690 which makes it very difficult for people to put down roots, plan for the 104 00:06:38.690 --> 00:06:42.370 future. You're almost always thinking about your next renewal, 105 00:06:42.370 --> 00:06:45.190 you don't get that chance to just relax in your home. 106 00:06:47.025 --> 00:06:50.165 Is that the challenge that maybe the the private rented sector faces? 107 00:06:50.705 --> 00:06:54.465 Yeah. Again, we think that the leases or I think the leases in the 108 00:06:54.465 --> 00:06:57.509 private rented sector should be a lot longer. 109 00:06:58.770 --> 00:07:02.530 There's all these section 8 evictions where people can 110 00:07:02.530 --> 00:07:06.165 be evicted without notice. It's about having a better 111 00:07:06.165 --> 00:07:09.925 regulated private rented sector where landlords are 112 00:07:09.925 --> 00:07:13.560 also registered. Some 113 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:14.940 councils have compulsory 114 00:07:19.080 --> 00:07:22.905 what's the word? Compulsory registration compulsory registration for 115 00:07:22.905 --> 00:07:26.265 landlords. I think if you want to be a private landlord, you should have to 116 00:07:26.265 --> 00:07:30.010 go through a registration process and not just be a fly 117 00:07:30.010 --> 00:07:33.669 by night, a rackman type landlord. You 118 00:07:34.410 --> 00:07:38.090 know, I did a lot of work in in northern towns. So for example, in 119 00:07:38.090 --> 00:07:41.595 Oldham, we did a survey of how many 120 00:07:41.595 --> 00:07:45.055 lettings agency well, there's 84 lettings agencies in Oldham. 121 00:07:45.275 --> 00:07:48.750 So this is a small town where anybody could set up their own 122 00:07:48.750 --> 00:07:51.250 agency, let out properties, 123 00:07:52.670 --> 00:07:56.324 not manage them properly. They'd be really poor condition. There'd 124 00:07:56.324 --> 00:08:00.164 be a focus for antisocial behavior, all on the basis that, you know, 125 00:08:00.164 --> 00:08:04.005 for somebody to invest in these properties and they're just bothered about getting a rate 126 00:08:04.005 --> 00:08:07.670 of return. I mean, my experience is 127 00:08:07.670 --> 00:08:11.430 the the private rented sector and the letting agents is everything 128 00:08:11.430 --> 00:08:15.225 seems to be outsourced. So they outsource the key collection. 129 00:08:15.225 --> 00:08:18.845 They outsource the inspections. They outsource the inventory. They outsource 130 00:08:19.465 --> 00:08:22.710 the maintenance. So what you're really dealing with is 131 00:08:23.090 --> 00:08:26.850 nice people, but they don't really have any end to end view of the 132 00:08:26.850 --> 00:08:30.295 tenant life. They're just pushing a button to say, well, we'll get somebody 133 00:08:30.295 --> 00:08:34.135 in. I think from a tenant's perspective, that leaves a lot of lack 134 00:08:34.135 --> 00:08:37.650 of joined up thinking in the experience. Yeah. It's not just that, 135 00:08:38.050 --> 00:08:41.830 Joe. I think it's all them incur a fee 136 00:08:42.370 --> 00:08:45.704 and private letting 137 00:08:45.985 --> 00:08:49.704 or lettings, they see many of their fees are a rip off. You know, renewal 138 00:08:49.704 --> 00:08:53.269 fees, sending signing tenancy agreement fees, 139 00:08:53.269 --> 00:08:57.029 inspection fees, all those sort of things. It is 140 00:08:57.029 --> 00:09:00.329 an absolute rip off. And I know some housing associations 141 00:09:00.965 --> 00:09:04.665 have set up their own social lettings agencies where they manage properties 142 00:09:05.045 --> 00:09:08.805 in the private rented sector. They've just done away with all them fees because you 143 00:09:08.805 --> 00:09:12.420 don't hear about them in the social event. So what was changed? Was it 144 00:09:12.420 --> 00:09:16.180 12 to 18 months ago, wasn't it? Where there's no document fees 145 00:09:16.180 --> 00:09:19.945 anymore. There's no you still pay deposit. You still do a pair of 146 00:09:19.945 --> 00:09:23.705 referencing fee, but a lot of those renewal fees have been taken away now, haven't 147 00:09:23.705 --> 00:09:27.520 they? Yeah. So in the housing association, when I used to work, we had a 148 00:09:27.520 --> 00:09:31.360 social lettings agency. Jo upfront fees for the 149 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:35.035 tenant. You know, none of that stuff. We we asked them for 2 150 00:09:35.035 --> 00:09:38.335 weeks rent upfront so you didn't have to pay a month's deposit either. 151 00:09:39.035 --> 00:09:42.540 And the you know, there's a major hindrance or there's 152 00:09:42.540 --> 00:09:46.140 obstacles for people to get into the private rented sector. If you had a if 153 00:09:46.140 --> 00:09:49.340 you're a private landlord, if you gave your property to us to manage, we would 154 00:09:49.340 --> 00:09:53.075 manage it. And that's what housing organizations do. They manage 155 00:09:53.075 --> 00:09:56.675 properties. They manage tenants. And I think, you know, that is 156 00:09:56.755 --> 00:10:00.560 that's a social lettings agencies that are really attractive 157 00:10:00.620 --> 00:10:04.380 way forward. My 158 00:10:04.380 --> 00:10:07.840 naive, I suppose, view of the private housing market is or housing 159 00:10:08.795 --> 00:10:12.555 letting sector is that people often enter it as a 160 00:10:12.555 --> 00:10:16.255 profit, a pension fund rather than 161 00:10:16.370 --> 00:10:20.050 the social responsibility of providing someone a home is a business to them, 162 00:10:20.050 --> 00:10:23.889 isn't it? I think sometimes they forget about the customer which 163 00:10:23.889 --> 00:10:27.415 is their their less their less or less e. 164 00:10:28.035 --> 00:10:31.795 Yeah. It's a financialization of housing where people are 165 00:10:31.795 --> 00:10:35.380 in it for a profit. People see it as their pension fund 166 00:10:35.380 --> 00:10:39.000 rather than it for it's a it's a place to live for many people. 167 00:10:40.740 --> 00:10:44.020 I'm not saying that all landlords are bad. I think some people have a really 168 00:10:44.020 --> 00:10:47.725 positive experience in the private rented sector. But we know 169 00:10:47.725 --> 00:10:51.325 in some of the big cities and the smaller towns, the quality is poor, the 170 00:10:51.325 --> 00:10:54.305 management is poor. They're not looked after. 171 00:10:55.630 --> 00:10:58.930 And they they don't add anything to the built environment. 172 00:11:01.310 --> 00:11:04.795 I mean, I I used to work with, in my previous 173 00:11:04.795 --> 00:11:08.635 background working on IT, I used to work with a couple of national 174 00:11:08.635 --> 00:11:12.335 chains of letting agents, and I spoke to some of the franchise holders. 175 00:11:13.010 --> 00:11:15.910 And they were very clear that their client is the landlord. 176 00:11:17.970 --> 00:11:21.730 At no point does the tenant figure in anyone's mind 177 00:11:21.730 --> 00:11:25.394 as the client. So as far as the landlord's concerned, the 178 00:11:25.394 --> 00:11:28.935 less the letting agent is dealing with the client or the tenant. 179 00:11:30.410 --> 00:11:34.170 The the letting agent believes the landlord is their client. So who's worrying about 180 00:11:34.170 --> 00:11:37.850 the interests of the tenant there? And often it's not. 181 00:11:37.850 --> 00:11:41.334 It's the the letting agent is trying to maximize the 182 00:11:41.334 --> 00:11:44.954 return for themselves via fees to the landlord. 183 00:11:46.589 --> 00:11:50.029 Pushing up rents, index linking at 5% a year, whatever it may 184 00:11:50.029 --> 00:11:53.345 be, because that returns more money to the letting agent. So 185 00:11:53.504 --> 00:11:56.324 nobody's nobody's got the tenant's interest at heart, have they? 186 00:11:57.185 --> 00:12:00.545 No. I think that's the difference between private rented 187 00:12:00.545 --> 00:12:03.650 sector and the best social landlords where, 188 00:12:04.910 --> 00:12:08.590 having the tenant's interest at heart, making sure that tenants have a 189 00:12:08.590 --> 00:12:12.285 say both into the running of their home and the running of their neighborhoods 190 00:12:12.825 --> 00:12:16.505 is important. Yeah. But I think you're right. You 191 00:12:16.505 --> 00:12:19.160 said it earlier on that there's this UK 192 00:12:21.460 --> 00:12:25.060 perception that owning is best, whether that 193 00:12:25.060 --> 00:12:28.645 was developed in the glory 194 00:12:28.645 --> 00:12:31.785 days of Mackey Thatcher pushing everybody for ownership. 195 00:12:32.645 --> 00:12:36.339 But but not only around home, it seems as a stigma or something. Yeah. And 196 00:12:36.339 --> 00:12:40.019 I think you I would go back to the 19 eighties and the Thatcher 197 00:12:40.019 --> 00:12:43.779 government. One of their flagship policies was giving 198 00:12:43.779 --> 00:12:47.175 council tenants the right to buy their homes. I've got nothing against 199 00:12:47.175 --> 00:12:51.015 that, but those homes were never replaced. There was a 200 00:12:51.015 --> 00:12:54.600 windfall for the windfall for those people who bought those properties straight 201 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:58.120 away, and we know that probably a 202 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:01.959 third or more than a third of those x right to buy properties end 203 00:13:01.959 --> 00:13:05.595 up back in the private rented sector at extortionate 204 00:13:05.894 --> 00:13:09.575 rent. So and if those people on housing benefit were actually 205 00:13:09.575 --> 00:13:12.714 paying, you know, the state is paying for those those 206 00:13:13.310 --> 00:13:17.010 those benefits now. You know, they're paid they're paying for that rent. So 207 00:13:17.710 --> 00:13:21.230 on the long term, it's never worked out for the state, and you've had an 208 00:13:21.230 --> 00:13:24.535 enormous loss of affordable housing, 209 00:13:25.155 --> 00:13:28.995 which, you know, plays itself out in society at the moment. So it was a 210 00:13:28.995 --> 00:13:32.810 good thing at the time. And, you know, I know, for 211 00:13:32.810 --> 00:13:36.570 example, is it Scotland or Wales one of to have a stop the 212 00:13:36.570 --> 00:13:40.375 right to buy it, you know, because they just feel that it's a it's a 213 00:13:40.455 --> 00:13:44.135 an asset to the community which has been privatized, and it does no 214 00:13:44.135 --> 00:13:46.315 good whatsoever for their local communities. 215 00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:51.460 So you talk about the the ethical side of social housing. 216 00:13:53.040 --> 00:13:56.765 What's that look like? What's what what what are the what 217 00:13:56.765 --> 00:14:00.445 are the good good parts of that? So I think well, I've 218 00:14:00.445 --> 00:14:03.105 worked most of my life in the housing sector, 219 00:14:05.740 --> 00:14:09.420 And I've worked with social landlords, both local authority and 220 00:14:09.420 --> 00:14:13.245 housing association. And 221 00:14:13.704 --> 00:14:17.464 I think that the housing organizations have 2 222 00:14:17.464 --> 00:14:20.764 functions. 1 of all is what first of all is to be 223 00:14:21.390 --> 00:14:25.230 the best possible landlord. So it's getting the basics right in 224 00:14:25.230 --> 00:14:27.410 terms of property condition, repairs, 225 00:14:30.385 --> 00:14:32.885 collection of rents, turnaround of properties, 226 00:14:33.985 --> 00:14:36.645 making sure that the neighborhoods are up to 227 00:14:37.400 --> 00:14:40.780 standards. But the secondly the second 228 00:14:41.160 --> 00:14:44.965 part of being a good landlord is being a a community 229 00:14:45.025 --> 00:14:48.865 anchor, which is ensuring that your residents and 230 00:14:48.865 --> 00:14:51.125 your neighborhoods can 231 00:14:52.460 --> 00:14:56.140 improve their life in terms 232 00:14:56.140 --> 00:14:59.760 of potential, in terms of access to work, 233 00:15:00.384 --> 00:15:02.485 access to educational opportunities, 234 00:15:05.105 --> 00:15:08.500 and access to having a better social 235 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:12.959 environment around them. So I think there's 2 there's 236 00:15:12.959 --> 00:15:16.565 2 functions for for housing organizations. And I 237 00:15:16.565 --> 00:15:19.865 think, sadly, some of them just do the core landlord functions 238 00:15:20.645 --> 00:15:23.829 and build new houses, some of which aren't affordable. 239 00:15:24.850 --> 00:15:28.209 I think housing organizations should help regenerate the 240 00:15:28.209 --> 00:15:31.945 communities that they're working. And I completely 241 00:15:31.945 --> 00:15:32.445 agree. 242 00:15:36.025 --> 00:15:39.639 When I when I you're the CEO of the Housing 243 00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:43.399 Diversity Network and I believe you also sit in the board of of 1 244 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:47.215 or some housing associations yourself, have spent, as you 245 00:15:47.215 --> 00:15:51.055 just said, a long time in the housing sector or the 246 00:15:51.055 --> 00:15:54.899 social housing sector. Are social 247 00:15:54.899 --> 00:15:57.240 housing companies also 248 00:15:58.579 --> 00:16:02.360 leaning towards profit before before tenant in some cases? 249 00:16:03.515 --> 00:16:07.215 Well, they won't say profit. They'll say that they want they're all not for profit 250 00:16:07.275 --> 00:16:10.875 organizations. They do have some for profit off you 251 00:16:11.035 --> 00:16:14.320 subsidies. I think 252 00:16:14.620 --> 00:16:18.300 the focus over the last 10 or so years has been 253 00:16:18.300 --> 00:16:22.115 on new build because the government is 254 00:16:22.115 --> 00:16:25.815 pushing them to build new houses 255 00:16:27.800 --> 00:16:31.560 because we the you know, everybody recognizes a housing shortage. I think in the 256 00:16:31.560 --> 00:16:35.400 push for new houses, they have moved away from 257 00:16:35.400 --> 00:16:38.805 their core purpose, which is regenerating 258 00:16:39.025 --> 00:16:42.385 communities. I think the best housing association was set up in the 259 00:16:42.385 --> 00:16:45.605 sixties as small locally based ventures 260 00:16:46.040 --> 00:16:49.660 to help local communities improve housing conditions. 261 00:16:50.280 --> 00:16:53.420 And they've just grown to be massive organizations 262 00:16:53.880 --> 00:16:57.404 now, and they like doing the core landlord bit 263 00:16:57.404 --> 00:17:01.004 because, you know, that's what they feel is of of 264 00:17:01.004 --> 00:17:04.710 port important to them. They have call 265 00:17:04.710 --> 00:17:08.549 centers. They have text for rent arrears. You know, they've gone away 266 00:17:08.549 --> 00:17:11.849 from the face to face contact and 267 00:17:12.635 --> 00:17:16.415 in the drive for new homes, and they save everything just so they can 268 00:17:16.714 --> 00:17:20.230 build new houses. I'd like organizations 269 00:17:20.609 --> 00:17:24.230 to to do both. And I think, you know, losing that local community 270 00:17:24.290 --> 00:17:27.734 impact, local community connection is 271 00:17:27.734 --> 00:17:31.175 something that, you know, is important to us. And at the 272 00:17:31.175 --> 00:17:34.935 diversity network, we've got an accreditation scheme, which doesn't just 273 00:17:34.935 --> 00:17:36.660 look at the, 274 00:17:39.360 --> 00:17:43.200 how many houses you build. It looks at your wider community purpose. It 275 00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:46.925 looks at your business impact. It looks at how much social investment 276 00:17:46.985 --> 00:17:49.965 you've done. And I think that's just as important for me. 277 00:17:50.745 --> 00:17:54.045 Mhmm. Because there there's two sides to 278 00:17:54.790 --> 00:17:58.090 a housing association with tenant. There's the affordable housing 279 00:17:58.710 --> 00:18:02.305 for key workers, nurses, doctors, firefighters, police, 280 00:18:02.385 --> 00:18:05.525 whoever that may be. There's also the lifeline housing 281 00:18:06.145 --> 00:18:09.765 for people who are on benefits or don't have access 282 00:18:09.825 --> 00:18:13.640 to credit ratings or whatever that may be. Do you think 283 00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:17.480 some housing associations are prioritizing the key worker affordable 284 00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:20.919 homes rather than the baseline social impact 285 00:18:20.919 --> 00:18:24.764 housing? I think I think Jo. Certainly in London. 286 00:18:25.384 --> 00:18:28.605 I think, you know, London's got a particular housing crisis. 287 00:18:29.710 --> 00:18:33.410 Key workers can't afford to live there, but they have affordable 288 00:18:33.470 --> 00:18:37.230 housing and then there's a even the affordable housing, there's a push for shared 289 00:18:37.230 --> 00:18:40.914 ownership rather than truly affordable rented housing. 290 00:18:40.914 --> 00:18:44.695 To me, yeah, housing house is affordable if you're spending 291 00:18:45.715 --> 00:18:49.250 probably a third of your income on 292 00:18:49.250 --> 00:18:52.790 rent. So you you just look at the average wage in a particular area 293 00:18:53.410 --> 00:18:56.929 and say, look, if a third of your wages on rent, then that is 294 00:18:56.929 --> 00:19:00.525 affordable. The government defines affordable housing as 80% 295 00:19:00.825 --> 00:19:04.365 of what the market charges, which is far in excess 296 00:19:05.690 --> 00:19:08.110 of what I would class as truly affordable. 297 00:19:09.530 --> 00:19:12.190 And just going back to your earlier point, I would like 298 00:19:13.370 --> 00:19:17.185 housing social housing was set up for anybody, and 299 00:19:17.185 --> 00:19:20.325 you didn't have to be on benefits 300 00:19:20.865 --> 00:19:24.420 or, you know, in the twilight of your 301 00:19:24.420 --> 00:19:27.880 years needing sheltered accommodation. It was set up for anybody. 302 00:19:27.940 --> 00:19:31.460 And you were meant to have doctors miss mixing with 303 00:19:31.460 --> 00:19:34.465 laborers and having truly mixed communities. 304 00:19:35.245 --> 00:19:38.785 And you're right in that we moved away. And there's a stigma 305 00:19:38.925 --> 00:19:42.409 attached to social housing, and there was a concept in 306 00:19:43.350 --> 00:19:47.029 the nineties and early 2000 having sink estates where people 307 00:19:47.029 --> 00:19:50.715 were dumped because nobody else would have them. They'd been through the 308 00:19:50.715 --> 00:19:54.395 homelessness route, and they were just dumped on particular areas. 309 00:19:54.395 --> 00:19:57.755 And that led to a real downward spiral in those 310 00:19:57.755 --> 00:20:01.380 areas. And, you know, I'm a great advocate of 311 00:20:01.380 --> 00:20:05.140 having mixed sustainable communities with people from all 312 00:20:05.140 --> 00:20:07.559 walks of life living together. 313 00:20:09.815 --> 00:20:13.195 Yeah. Because this shared ownership is is not the panacea 314 00:20:13.895 --> 00:20:17.340 it reports to be because it's it's not any more affordable 315 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:21.340 than the renting. Is it because 316 00:20:22.360 --> 00:20:25.260 a shared ownership resident is seen to be 317 00:20:26.105 --> 00:20:29.785 more likely to care about the property and the environment because they have a stake 318 00:20:29.785 --> 00:20:33.005 in it. Is this the bias against people who are 319 00:20:33.450 --> 00:20:37.210 tenants as being more like to commit antisocial behaviors, more like to 320 00:20:37.210 --> 00:20:40.970 be the wrong sort? Is that the bias that's created? I'm 321 00:20:40.970 --> 00:20:42.865 sure it's the bias. I'm sure it's 322 00:20:45.265 --> 00:20:49.025 the emphasis that we've had on your home. Is 323 00:20:49.025 --> 00:20:52.680 it your home, your castle? What's the phrase? Is it like your 324 00:20:52.760 --> 00:20:56.600 an Englishman's home is his castle? And that's you 325 00:20:56.600 --> 00:21:00.215 know, if they if there's an emphasis on homeownership, and it's just being 326 00:21:00.215 --> 00:21:03.895 pushed over years years. But we know that over recent years, 327 00:21:03.895 --> 00:21:07.720 homeownership has declined because the generation that's 328 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:11.400 coming up now to the stage where they are moving into their own 329 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:14.780 accommodation simply cannot afford to buy. 330 00:21:15.405 --> 00:21:19.165 You know, law in large swathes of the country on the wages that 331 00:21:19.165 --> 00:21:23.005 they're on, they simply cannot afford to buy properties in those areas. So I 332 00:21:23.005 --> 00:21:26.580 think there's a real imperative to have a major 333 00:21:26.580 --> 00:21:30.280 house building program, but we're never gonna get there, you know, not 334 00:21:30.340 --> 00:21:32.280 without a major sea change. 335 00:21:34.745 --> 00:21:38.505 I remember probably was it 2000 early 2000s, Kate 336 00:21:38.505 --> 00:21:41.945 Barker, an economist, did a report on the state of the 337 00:21:41.945 --> 00:21:45.640 housing market. And she said one of the reasons why, 338 00:21:46.740 --> 00:21:50.580 housing was housing market was in 339 00:21:50.580 --> 00:21:52.335 the state which is in is the developers 340 00:21:56.772 --> 00:21:57.272 onto 341 00:22:01.450 --> 00:22:05.210 onto the table that there wasn't, it 342 00:22:05.210 --> 00:22:09.034 wasn't to do with planning, which is is always trotted out. You 343 00:22:09.034 --> 00:22:12.875 know, planning is behind it, planning regulation. And 344 00:22:12.875 --> 00:22:16.634 people did people want new houses, but they don't want them 345 00:22:16.634 --> 00:22:18.940 next door to them, they don't want them in their own backyard. 346 00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:25.420 And there's a massive, you know, housing estate 347 00:22:25.805 --> 00:22:28.705 not far from where I live, it's called Burwood in Walkleyville. 348 00:22:29.565 --> 00:22:33.005 And I don't know how many houses are on the entire state. And there's obviously 349 00:22:33.005 --> 00:22:36.740 a balance between affordable, social, 350 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:40.640 and private. But they've been 351 00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:44.325 crammed in and I dare say that the the social housing 352 00:22:44.325 --> 00:22:48.165 and the affordable housing, you can just tell 353 00:22:48.165 --> 00:22:51.970 the difference in stock is crammed in. I would be bothered 354 00:22:51.970 --> 00:22:55.730 to get an ambulance of a fire engine through those streets at night where the 355 00:22:55.730 --> 00:22:58.550 the cars are packed tight. There's no garages, no driveways, 356 00:22:59.365 --> 00:23:03.145 often 1 and a half car widths wide, which means everyone's on the curbs. 357 00:23:03.445 --> 00:23:06.965 It means that you've got 0 access for people with wheelchairs or 358 00:23:06.965 --> 00:23:10.710 pushchairs. And it's actually a nightmare to get out of 359 00:23:10.710 --> 00:23:14.390 there. I mean, I remember getting lost trying to find my way out. This is 360 00:23:14.390 --> 00:23:18.205 like 15, 20 minutes. So they're quite dark, what's that? 361 00:23:18.365 --> 00:23:21.904 Because there's not a lot of light coming in because it's built up, 362 00:23:22.445 --> 00:23:25.804 creating this sort of like shadow on the streets and it just worries me that 363 00:23:25.804 --> 00:23:29.630 we're building these estates now and packing people in 364 00:23:30.330 --> 00:23:34.030 in in the guys that's not being high rise but still suffering that high rise 365 00:23:34.250 --> 00:23:37.995 mentality where everything's crammed together. There's no room to breathe. Yes, 366 00:23:37.995 --> 00:23:41.675 there are parks, greenery every so often. But it 367 00:23:41.675 --> 00:23:45.275 just seems like a fault with kind of future social problems that are gonna 368 00:23:45.275 --> 00:23:49.110 develop. Yeah. Ted Wright. Again, in 369 00:23:49.110 --> 00:23:52.630 a tower block with they're called pore doors in that you've got 2 370 00:23:52.630 --> 00:23:56.345 different entrances. You've got a really nice tower block, and the plush 371 00:23:56.345 --> 00:23:59.645 entrance is for people who bought their houses around the back 372 00:24:00.105 --> 00:24:03.660 overlooking the, you know, 373 00:24:03.660 --> 00:24:07.420 the the bad views, overlooking the poor parts of town are is 374 00:24:07.420 --> 00:24:10.940 the affordable housing, which is, you know, let through a 375 00:24:10.940 --> 00:24:14.575 housing association. And the people who 376 00:24:14.575 --> 00:24:18.335 live in those properties don't have access to the to the gym 377 00:24:18.335 --> 00:24:21.695 or the car park, and they Jo in through the poor door around the corner. 378 00:24:21.695 --> 00:24:25.280 And that's what they were called. I mean, you know, there's some major 379 00:24:25.280 --> 00:24:29.060 issues around how these developments 380 00:24:29.840 --> 00:24:33.665 are constructed and local authorities, I think, need to 381 00:24:33.665 --> 00:24:37.365 be a lot stronger, and should have a lot more, 382 00:24:38.225 --> 00:24:41.810 weight in that the emphasis that they placed. And, you know, these places should 383 00:24:41.810 --> 00:24:44.870 be indistinguishable from each other. 384 00:24:46.930 --> 00:24:50.595 Again, is that the bias against the people who are 385 00:24:50.595 --> 00:24:54.434 in the poor end of society, people who 386 00:24:54.434 --> 00:24:58.035 don't come from the same privileged background. There's a perception they're going to be 387 00:24:58.035 --> 00:25:01.250 causing trouble, noise, drugs, 388 00:25:01.470 --> 00:25:05.150 violence, etcetera, etcetera. So this is the bias that's playing out 389 00:25:05.150 --> 00:25:08.975 again, pushing some people down lower and raising 390 00:25:08.975 --> 00:25:12.435 some people higher. Yeah. Would would you say that's unconscious 391 00:25:12.575 --> 00:25:15.875 bias or some conscious bias or a mixture of both? 392 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:21.140 It's definitely bias. I I think it's probably commercial bias 393 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:25.765 mixed with unconscious bias. I think there's a is the is 394 00:25:25.765 --> 00:25:29.365 this conscious about the their perception or the 395 00:25:29.365 --> 00:25:33.100 perception may be unconscious, but they're conscious about enacting on it. 396 00:25:33.100 --> 00:25:36.640 So I think there is some business marketing was going on there. 397 00:25:37.500 --> 00:25:41.175 And there's always been discrimination in the housing market going back to 398 00:25:41.175 --> 00:25:44.715 the 19 fifties and the no black blacks dogs 399 00:25:45.335 --> 00:25:48.990 or Irish. They used to go up, you know, in 400 00:25:48.990 --> 00:25:52.670 many proxies. And, you know, the Commission For Racial Equality in the 401 00:25:52.670 --> 00:25:55.810