WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.720 --> 00:00:10.425 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host for 2 00:00:10.425 --> 00:00:14.105 the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a 3 00:00:14.105 --> 00:00:17.890 number of amazing people that simply had a conversation about the subject 4 00:00:17.890 --> 00:00:21.730 of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better 5 00:00:21.730 --> 00:00:25.555 place for everyone to thrive. If If you'd like to join me in the future, 6 00:00:25.695 --> 00:00:28.275 then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 7 00:00:31.294 --> 00:00:35.090 That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. 8 00:00:35.090 --> 00:00:38.789 You can catch up with all of the previous shows on Itunes, Spotify 9 00:00:39.010 --> 00:00:42.254 and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, 10 00:00:42.394 --> 00:00:45.135 grab a decaf and let's get going. 11 00:00:45.835 --> 00:00:49.680 Today is episode 38 with the title, 12 00:00:49.820 --> 00:00:53.340 secrets from the habitologist. And I have the 13 00:00:53.340 --> 00:00:56.240 absolute honor and privilege to be joined by Tony Winyard. 14 00:00:57.005 --> 00:01:00.685 Tony describes himself as someone who helps people create 15 00:01:00.685 --> 00:01:04.444 habits that become automatic. When I asked Tony to describe 16 00:01:04.444 --> 00:01:08.030 his superpower, he said, it is the ability to 17 00:01:08.030 --> 00:01:11.330 assimilate pretty quickly to most places that he goes. 18 00:01:12.110 --> 00:01:15.915 Hello, Tony. Welcome to the show. Hi, Jo. It's great 19 00:01:15.915 --> 00:01:19.755 to be here. So thank you for inviting me. No. It's absolute pleasure. I've been 20 00:01:19.755 --> 00:01:23.450 looking forward to this, for a long time, meeting some of the, the show 21 00:01:23.450 --> 00:01:27.210 notes you've put together beforehand that you've had a pretty interesting life and I 22 00:01:27.210 --> 00:01:30.935 love it. Can't wait to find out more. Jo, Tony, when we 23 00:01:30.935 --> 00:01:34.715 talked earlier, we talked about, you have a nickname of of the hepatologist. 24 00:01:35.015 --> 00:01:37.755 And so what are the secrets of a hepatologist? 25 00:01:39.420 --> 00:01:43.040 So the reason how that came about was I interviewed 26 00:01:43.180 --> 00:01:46.620 someone on my podcast, a few months ago, and they 27 00:01:47.355 --> 00:01:51.115 I'm trying to remember what their title was, but their title was somethingologist. It 28 00:01:51.115 --> 00:01:54.690 was about something that they did, and it's it's it's gone through my mind. But 29 00:01:54.690 --> 00:01:58.050 it stuck me, and I thought that was quite unique. And at the time, I 30 00:01:58.050 --> 00:02:01.190 was training to become a tiny habits coach. 31 00:02:01.985 --> 00:02:05.745 And and I just played around with the habitologists, and I looked around on 32 00:02:05.745 --> 00:02:09.585 Google and see if many anyone was using it. And it originally, it 33 00:02:09.585 --> 00:02:12.370 was just something for a bit of fun. And a couple of people said they 34 00:02:12.370 --> 00:02:15.810 quite liked it. So I I don't use it often, but I do use it 35 00:02:15.810 --> 00:02:19.030 sometimes. That's neat too. 36 00:02:19.834 --> 00:02:23.455 I mean, when I talk, in the DNI space 37 00:02:23.674 --> 00:02:27.194 around bringing change, a lot of it is around 38 00:02:27.194 --> 00:02:30.780 nudges, which I guess are tiny habits, small micro 39 00:02:30.780 --> 00:02:34.379 changes around process, around beliefs, about 40 00:02:34.379 --> 00:02:38.140 framing that can have a huge impact. So is that what you 41 00:02:38.140 --> 00:02:41.645 do in terms of creating these new habits? Yeah. 42 00:02:41.645 --> 00:02:45.405 Well, yeah, it very much is. And and how it 43 00:02:45.405 --> 00:02:49.140 all came about really was I've been for a few years now I've been immersing 44 00:02:49.140 --> 00:02:52.980 myself in studying in various areas of health, so 45 00:02:52.980 --> 00:02:56.820 nutrition and sleep and movement and breathing 46 00:02:56.820 --> 00:03:00.175 and and so on. And I I found I had a very good 47 00:03:00.175 --> 00:03:03.775 knowledge about all of this. And I was able to give people lots of knowledge, 48 00:03:03.775 --> 00:03:07.340 but that wasn't really necessarily helping them implement 49 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:11.320 the things I was talking about into their everyday of life 50 00:03:11.320 --> 00:03:14.840 and actually maybe eating better or sleeping better or whatever the case 51 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:18.195 was. And when I discovered this book, tiny 52 00:03:18.195 --> 00:03:21.875 habits, that was kind of like the missing piece of the puzzle because then I 53 00:03:21.875 --> 00:03:25.459 was able to help people make it into a habit to sleep better or into 54 00:03:25.459 --> 00:03:27.959 a habit to eat better or whatever the case was. 55 00:03:31.115 --> 00:03:34.635 We we keep looking for these massive changes in in our lives sometimes, don't we? 56 00:03:34.635 --> 00:03:38.095 And it becomes unrealistic, unsustainable, unfulfillable. 57 00:03:39.115 --> 00:03:42.860 We wanna lose all this weight. We wanna become fitter. So we 58 00:03:42.860 --> 00:03:46.620 always embark on these big ticket programs, which 59 00:03:46.620 --> 00:03:50.215 don't hit the mark, do they? So tiny habits, a way of achieving a 60 00:03:50.215 --> 00:03:53.834 goal without investing your life into it. It's just incremental. 61 00:03:54.534 --> 00:03:58.290 Yeah. And it has to start small because if you try to start to if 62 00:03:58.290 --> 00:04:01.650 you want to run a marathon, you don't start running 20 miles every day because 63 00:04:01.650 --> 00:04:05.489 it's you're probably gonna fail. But if you start by running just around the 64 00:04:05.489 --> 00:04:09.075 block and then you slowly build up and, you know, and you 65 00:04:09.075 --> 00:04:12.754 scale up over time, you're more likely to succeed. And that's the 66 00:04:12.754 --> 00:04:16.510 same for anything, really. We it's if we can start very small 67 00:04:16.889 --> 00:04:20.649 and it could even be just as small as, well, I'm gonna start 68 00:04:20.649 --> 00:04:24.005 running, but I'm not maybe I'm not really so keen on running. You just put 69 00:04:24.005 --> 00:04:27.845 your shoes out in front of the door. You're you're running shoes in 70 00:04:27.845 --> 00:04:30.485 front of the door. And maybe for the 1st couple of days, you don't even 71 00:04:30.485 --> 00:04:34.290 run, but you just see the shoes there and it puts it in your mind. 72 00:04:34.510 --> 00:04:37.630 And then you build up from there. But, yeah, if you start off tiny, you're 73 00:04:37.630 --> 00:04:41.175 more likely to succeed in whatever behavior you're trying to 74 00:04:41.175 --> 00:04:44.615 automate. That's interesting. I I I'm 75 00:04:45.495 --> 00:04:48.970 most people would probably describe me as unfit, and I I wouldn't disagree with them. 76 00:04:49.050 --> 00:04:52.810 I need to do something about my activity, and I we moved our house recently 77 00:04:52.810 --> 00:04:56.490 into the countryside, and I decided that my my new 78 00:04:56.490 --> 00:04:59.785 habit was gonna be go for cycle ride. So I bought a bicycle, 79 00:05:00.485 --> 00:05:04.245 and it I I had a 80 00:05:04.245 --> 00:05:07.785 overambitious expectation of my own physical ability. 81 00:05:08.050 --> 00:05:10.370 I thought, oh, I can jump on a bike. I said, it can't be that 82 00:05:10.370 --> 00:05:14.210 difficult. I've I've used to ride a bike every day to school and in 83 00:05:14.210 --> 00:05:17.995 my I've been to center parks like you do. And I 84 00:05:17.995 --> 00:05:21.435 suddenly realized that I'm now 56, very 85 00:05:21.435 --> 00:05:25.195 overweight, and that I'm not as fit as I thought I was. And, my 86 00:05:25.195 --> 00:05:29.020 first five miles, I think I felt like I needed 87 00:05:29.020 --> 00:05:31.979 oxygen when I got home and I did it. I made it. I cracked it. 88 00:05:31.979 --> 00:05:35.725 I went to the place and came back again. But I've now I'm gonna readjust 89 00:05:35.725 --> 00:05:39.345 my expectations, and I'm gonna do probably a quarter mile 90 00:05:39.965 --> 00:05:43.280 for a week and then then half a mile that I've got. I know where 91 00:05:43.280 --> 00:05:46.800 the next lamppost is, and I'm just gonna aim by the lamppost or aim by 92 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:50.640 the trees and then try and build it up. So you're you're quite right. 93 00:05:50.640 --> 00:05:54.435 And I think if I keep holding on to this, I must achieve 94 00:05:54.435 --> 00:05:58.115 this massive goal. I'd have now I'll never do it, but I think just 95 00:05:58.115 --> 00:06:01.890 something realistic. 10 minutes is is not a is not a defeatist. It's a 96 00:06:01.890 --> 00:06:05.730 realism. And I think you're quite right. Well, and another element 97 00:06:05.730 --> 00:06:09.490 of what you just said, because by when it sounded from what 98 00:06:09.490 --> 00:06:13.185 you were saying, when you did that 5 miles, it wasn't fun. And if it's 99 00:06:13.185 --> 00:06:16.944 not fun, you're unlikely to repeat it again. But if you make it very short, 100 00:06:16.944 --> 00:06:20.550 you're more likely to enjoy it. And that's a massive part of making 101 00:06:20.550 --> 00:06:24.010 something automate, you know, automate. You have to enjoy it. 102 00:06:25.030 --> 00:06:27.610 Yeah. My goal, 103 00:06:28.875 --> 00:06:32.015 and this is my vision, is pick up on a Sunday morning, 104 00:06:32.555 --> 00:06:36.395 cycle to the farm shop, pick up some eggs and bacon, cycle 105 00:06:36.395 --> 00:06:40.160 home and cook it. So my test cycle was 106 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:43.920 to the farm shop and back. But when I got back, I was 107 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:47.645 in no fit state to cook anything. Jo so 108 00:06:47.645 --> 00:06:51.405 that's the bit I gotta work on. It's better get there and back and enjoy 109 00:06:51.405 --> 00:06:54.845 it and be able to talk when I get home and be able to enjoy 110 00:06:54.845 --> 00:06:58.600 cooking the food when I bought it. So, yeah, I know I can do it 111 00:06:58.600 --> 00:07:02.280 now. I know it's within my reach. I just now need to improve that and, 112 00:07:02.520 --> 00:07:06.325 and go off more regular cycles. But, yeah, so it's really interesting about this habits 113 00:07:06.325 --> 00:07:09.685 thing, and I think I've already sussed out. I need to develop the habit 114 00:07:10.405 --> 00:07:14.085 Mhmm. Of looking out the window and going, now I could do 10 minutes while 115 00:07:14.085 --> 00:07:17.350 I'm thinking. This before, I was thinking, oh, I need to wait. I need to 116 00:07:17.350 --> 00:07:19.990 find an hour or 2 to do this. Mhmm. I don't. I just need to 117 00:07:19.990 --> 00:07:22.389 think, like, I think in 10 minute chunks. I can go down to the end 118 00:07:22.389 --> 00:07:26.215 of the road and back again. Yeah. That's still a win, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. 119 00:07:26.215 --> 00:07:29.915 It's a much bigger win. It's yeah. Consistency. 120 00:07:30.135 --> 00:07:33.515 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you've had a you've had a pretty fantastic 121 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:37.920 life where I can read from what you sent me. You've lived in 11 122 00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:41.760 countries. Yeah. And you're just radio presenting as well in 123 00:07:41.760 --> 00:07:45.065 your past. That and that sounds really intriguing. Tell me tell me about that. 124 00:07:45.764 --> 00:07:49.605 Yeah. I I've worked on radio in a few different countries. And 125 00:07:49.605 --> 00:07:52.824 in one of the countries, I was in Indonesia for a few years. 126 00:07:53.430 --> 00:07:57.110 And I I was at the time, I was working as a 127 00:07:57.110 --> 00:08:00.905 DJ in a nightclub in Indonesia. And the the kind 128 00:08:00.905 --> 00:08:04.745 of equivalent of Capitol Radio, I'm from London, so Capitol Radio is 129 00:08:04.745 --> 00:08:08.250 my, you know, how are the landmark I would use. And the 130 00:08:08.250 --> 00:08:12.009 equivalent of Capital Radio in Jakarta was a station called Tulijayo, and 131 00:08:12.009 --> 00:08:15.770 they asked me and the the local DJ I work 132 00:08:15.770 --> 00:08:19.275 with to come into their station to interview on their breakfast 133 00:08:19.275 --> 00:08:22.875 show. And I'd already worked on radio in some other 134 00:08:22.875 --> 00:08:26.570 countries previously. And at the end of the interview, I just 135 00:08:26.790 --> 00:08:30.470 I made a couple of comments about the station and some improvements I 136 00:08:30.470 --> 00:08:34.070 thought that they might be interested in that would make this show 137 00:08:34.070 --> 00:08:37.345 run smoother and and some other things. I can't even remember what it was I 138 00:08:37.345 --> 00:08:41.025 suggested. But they turned around to me and say, well, why don't you have your 139 00:08:41.025 --> 00:08:44.580 own show? And I was, yeah. Okay. And 140 00:08:44.880 --> 00:08:48.480 and then I so I started doing a weekly show, and they gave me 141 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:52.095 complete carte blanche into whatever music I wanted to play because I had a 142 00:08:52.095 --> 00:08:55.774 pretty good music knowledge Joanne collection. But the more interesting 143 00:08:55.774 --> 00:08:59.519 thing happened was I was the only native English speaker on the station. 144 00:09:00.380 --> 00:09:03.680 And Jakarta is a city of 8, 9,000,000 people. 145 00:09:04.060 --> 00:09:07.755 And it's quite a a lot of major artists perform 146 00:09:07.894 --> 00:09:11.654 in Jakarta on their Asian leg of their tour, like, 147 00:09:11.654 --> 00:09:15.040 major, major artists. And so a lot they were often 148 00:09:15.040 --> 00:09:18.480 getting interview slots for some of these people. And they 149 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:22.235 started to ask me, would I interview the people? Not because I was any 150 00:09:22.475 --> 00:09:25.995 thing special as an interviewer, but because I spoke English as in my native 151 00:09:25.995 --> 00:09:29.675 language. And so I got to interview Jon Bon Jovi and 152 00:09:29.675 --> 00:09:33.440 Cindy Crawford and Steven Seagull and you be free. All sorts of 153 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:37.280 very famous people. As I said, not because I was anything special, but 154 00:09:37.280 --> 00:09:39.220 because I was a native English speaker. 155 00:09:42.815 --> 00:09:45.135 That's fascinating. I mean, that must have been kind of 156 00:09:46.310 --> 00:09:49.350 I guess, from the start, you must have had that that the nerves were sort 157 00:09:49.350 --> 00:09:52.950 of, like, shaky Joanne, wobbly voice. Are you in 158 00:09:52.950 --> 00:09:56.535 awe? Or did you overcome that pretty quick? Now 159 00:09:56.535 --> 00:09:59.635 I'm I wasn't. Now I wasn't in awe. 160 00:09:59.935 --> 00:10:03.520 I for some reason, I've never had that I don't get 161 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:07.600 that kind of, starstruck thing. But 162 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:11.440 what I where I did go wrong, and it's 163 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:15.235 actually it's interesting interesting to something that we were talking about before we 164 00:10:15.235 --> 00:10:19.074 started recording. You you talked about your style that you like to do to show 165 00:10:19.074 --> 00:10:22.779 the kind of conversational style. And at the start of 166 00:10:22.779 --> 00:10:26.540 these interviews, I was doing a ton of research on every 167 00:10:26.540 --> 00:10:30.255 person I was interviewing. I had all these all this information about them, the 168 00:10:30.255 --> 00:10:33.615 things they did and when they'd released records and films and whatever it 169 00:10:33.615 --> 00:10:37.375 was. And I was just asked going for a series of questions 170 00:10:37.375 --> 00:10:41.010 in these the first few of the, interviews that I did. 171 00:10:41.470 --> 00:10:44.910 And it took me a while to realize that there was no flow. It was 172 00:10:44.910 --> 00:10:48.535 just a series of questions. And and then I can't 173 00:10:48.535 --> 00:10:52.055 remember who it was. But for one interview, I thought what 174 00:10:52.055 --> 00:10:55.740 I'm been doing hasn't really been working. Maybe I 175 00:10:55.740 --> 00:10:59.500 just need to have a conversation and be confident enough to not 176 00:10:59.500 --> 00:11:03.035 have any information on the person and just simply to have a 177 00:11:03.274 --> 00:11:06.654 conversation and see how that goes. And it went so much better. 178 00:11:07.115 --> 00:11:10.394 And I never knew where the episode was going to go, where the conversation was 179 00:11:10.394 --> 00:11:14.209 going to go. And the the interviews were a 100, sometimes better. And 180 00:11:14.209 --> 00:11:17.970 I've just always done interviews that way ever since. And that was 181 00:11:17.970 --> 00:11:20.310 in in the mid nineties, something like that. 182 00:11:22.775 --> 00:11:26.215 I mean, I often sort of beat myself up because I feel like I'm winging 183 00:11:26.215 --> 00:11:29.735 it. But sometimes, winging it is actually more natural, more 184 00:11:29.735 --> 00:11:33.310 authentic, more interesting when when I don't know where the 185 00:11:33.310 --> 00:11:36.910 conversation's going, you don't know the conversation's going, and therefore the listener is 186 00:11:36.910 --> 00:11:40.255 following on that. As you say, if I if I was too prescriptive here and 187 00:11:40.255 --> 00:11:43.855 I've got your bio out and I ask you all this stuff, it's gonna sound 188 00:11:43.855 --> 00:11:47.330 quite, you know, almost like fake or or 189 00:11:47.330 --> 00:11:50.770 prepared. Well, I've done I don't know about you. I've been on 190 00:11:50.770 --> 00:11:54.445 some podcasts where I have just been the the the 191 00:11:54.445 --> 00:11:58.205 host has just had a series of questions. I I remember one 192 00:11:58.205 --> 00:12:01.965 was it was literally just question after question, and there wasn't any 193 00:12:01.965 --> 00:12:05.470 connection between the questions. And it was so stunted. There 194 00:12:05.470 --> 00:12:09.230 wasn't any flow to it at all. Yeah. I Jo a 195 00:12:09.230 --> 00:12:12.925 lot of panel shows, for corporate events. 196 00:12:12.925 --> 00:12:16.285 So they they want me to present or I often try and encourage them to 197 00:12:16.285 --> 00:12:19.850 interview me live and get the q and a going for the audience. 198 00:12:20.089 --> 00:12:23.209 And they always want me to give them a whole load of questions or give 199 00:12:23.209 --> 00:12:27.050 them all the all the things. I said, well, look, can't we just make it 200 00:12:27.050 --> 00:12:30.154 obviously Jo? But I suppose that requires a confidence 201 00:12:30.774 --> 00:12:34.535 in the host, doesn't it? And I suppose I've gotta be careful here that I'm 202 00:12:34.535 --> 00:12:38.270 not imprinting my confidence into somebody else who may not have it. 203 00:12:38.270 --> 00:12:42.029 So, yeah, it it's it's nice to have a few prepared questions, I 204 00:12:42.029 --> 00:12:45.605 guess, but it's nice to go off piece quite quickly. Mhmm. Well and 205 00:12:45.605 --> 00:12:49.225 and, actually, I I had a couple of comments from some of these, 206 00:12:49.605 --> 00:12:53.225 like, mega stars who and they were being interviewed all day long by various 207 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:56.420 radio stations, TV stations, newspapers, and so on. 208 00:12:56.960 --> 00:13:00.400 And a couple of times, these conversations, as I say, just went off on a 209 00:13:00.400 --> 00:13:04.075 real tangent. And a couple of times, the start the end of the 210 00:13:04.075 --> 00:13:07.915 interview would say, wow, I really enjoyed that because we covered some ground. 211 00:13:07.915 --> 00:13:11.370 I haven't covered in any every other interview has just been question after 212 00:13:11.370 --> 00:13:15.209 question, but we discussed some stuff today that I haven't brought up in 213 00:13:15.209 --> 00:13:18.730 any of the interviews. And so that reinforced my 214 00:13:18.730 --> 00:13:20.565 confidence to continue doing that. 215 00:13:22.485 --> 00:13:26.165 Yeah. Brilliant. Is so you worked in 11 countries around the world. 216 00:13:26.165 --> 00:13:29.820 You did a lot of DJ ing. You met a lot of celebrities, became a 217 00:13:29.820 --> 00:13:32.280 kind of like a an A list hangar outer. 218 00:13:34.660 --> 00:13:37.895 And what you came back to the UK after that, after a few years to 219 00:13:37.895 --> 00:13:41.735 2? Yeah. I'd I mean, it sounds very glamorous. And in some 220 00:13:41.735 --> 00:13:44.935 ways, it was. I mean, I was yeah. I worked in all those different countries, 221 00:13:44.935 --> 00:13:48.730 and I was being usually the I was working 222 00:13:48.730 --> 00:13:52.329 the best club in each of the cities that I was working in. And so 223 00:13:52.329 --> 00:13:56.035 the club was usually 4, and it was people wanted to know 224 00:13:56.035 --> 00:13:59.875 the DJ. And I was it was good, and it but 225 00:13:59.875 --> 00:14:03.710 eventually, I got tired of it. I got tired of virtually living out of 226 00:14:03.710 --> 00:14:07.470 a suitcase and going to a country where I didn't know anybody. I'd 227 00:14:07.470 --> 00:14:11.225 made lots of good friends. And then there was always a scene at the 228 00:14:11.225 --> 00:14:14.025 airport where I've got all these people saying goodbye to me. And I know I'm 229 00:14:14.025 --> 00:14:16.665 probably never going to see most of them again. And then I go to another 230 00:14:16.665 --> 00:14:20.340 country and I start this whole thing fresh. And after a while, 231 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:24.340 it was a combination of, I got tired of that after a while, but also 232 00:14:24.560 --> 00:14:28.265 I'd been away from England for 12 years. I thought, yeah, maybe 233 00:14:28.345 --> 00:14:31.625 but the first 10 years, I didn't miss England at all. Whenever anyone said to 234 00:14:31.625 --> 00:14:35.385 me, are you gonna go back to London? My reaction was normally, why 235 00:14:35.385 --> 00:14:39.180 would I wanna go back there? But then eventually I started to miss 236 00:14:39.180 --> 00:14:42.780 things. And plus at the same time, my mom started to 237 00:14:42.780 --> 00:14:46.395 lose her eyesight And I thought, okay, now is a good 238 00:14:46.395 --> 00:14:49.215 time to go home. So, yeah, after 12 years, I I returned. 239 00:14:51.490 --> 00:14:54.930 The DJ ing or or something else? Well, and yeah, 240 00:14:54.930 --> 00:14:58.690 I I also got fed up with club DJ ing, so 241 00:14:58.690 --> 00:15:02.035 I didn't want to continue working as a DJ, 242 00:15:02.495 --> 00:15:05.695 but I didn't, I wasn't really qualified to do anything else. And I didn't know 243 00:15:05.695 --> 00:15:09.250 what I wanted to do. And my best friend who I'd known since 244 00:15:09.250 --> 00:15:12.930 we're, like, we're the same age and we're we're 14 days apart in our 245 00:15:12.930 --> 00:15:15.890 birthdays, and we went to the same school and everything, and our parents know each 246 00:15:15.890 --> 00:15:19.465 other. And he's he was working as a financial adviser, and he had 247 00:15:19.765 --> 00:15:22.485 we had way too many clients. And he said, Artem, why don't you come and 248 00:15:22.485 --> 00:15:25.900 work with me? I can't handle all these clients I've got, and I can we 249 00:15:25.900 --> 00:15:29.580 can get you trained as a financial adviser. And so I did that. I went 250 00:15:29.580 --> 00:15:33.154 forward to train him. And it was such a big mistake 251 00:15:33.154 --> 00:15:36.675 because I am just not cut out to do something like that. 252 00:15:36.675 --> 00:15:39.260 I I had a ball in having a 253 00:15:47.665 --> 00:15:51.425 I I made no money at it because I didn't have any belief in 254 00:15:51.425 --> 00:15:54.865 what I was doing. And, but then what happened, I ended 255 00:15:54.865 --> 00:15:58.620 up people were offering me DJ work, but this time as a 256 00:15:58.620 --> 00:16:02.379 wedding DJ, which is very different to a club DJ. And 257 00:16:02.379 --> 00:16:05.585 so I ended up doing that just to make some money because I wasn't making 258 00:16:05.585 --> 00:16:09.425 any money in in trying to sell financial services. And so I ended up working 259 00:16:09.425 --> 00:16:13.160 as a as a wedding DJ. Wow. That's a 260 00:16:13.160 --> 00:16:16.760 big difference. So Jo your was it transit van, a load of load of 261 00:16:16.760 --> 00:16:20.305 amps and speakers and lights on on the on the road kicking it for 262 00:16:20.305 --> 00:16:24.065 you? Yeah. And it started off. I because 263 00:16:24.065 --> 00:16:27.490 I'd been away for so long, I didn't really have a 264 00:16:27.870 --> 00:16:31.550 reputation. You know? And and as I say, a wedding DJ, the typical 265 00:16:31.550 --> 00:16:35.055 person, a couple who is gonna book you for a wedding, they would never have 266 00:16:35.055 --> 00:16:38.574 heard of me as a club DJ, especially I'd been away for so long. So 267 00:16:38.574 --> 00:16:41.935 my reputation didn't count for anything as far as weddings were concerned. And so I 268 00:16:41.935 --> 00:16:45.740 started off almost at the bottom of the rung earning really poor 269 00:16:45.740 --> 00:16:48.480 money and not particularly 270 00:16:49.339 --> 00:16:53.105 been respected. I mean, it wasn't a great 271 00:16:53.105 --> 00:16:54.645 experience at the beginning. 272 00:16:57.025 --> 00:17:00.770 But I found that as a professional speaker. You do your first 273 00:17:00.770 --> 00:17:04.530 your first gigs now. I always think about when I watch the Freddie 274 00:17:04.530 --> 00:17:07.829 Mercury film and the history of Queen. 275 00:17:08.925 --> 00:17:12.765 Literally all these mega bands, all these world famous rock stars all 276 00:17:12.765 --> 00:17:16.540 started off lugging their kit in the back of a transit in a in a 277 00:17:16.540 --> 00:17:20.300 dirty, dingy, smelly pub somewhere and then moving on to the next 278 00:17:20.300 --> 00:17:24.035 venue the next night. And I think as performers, whether you're a 279 00:17:24.035 --> 00:17:27.875 comedian, whether you're a DJ, whether you're a speaker, wherever you are, you've gotta 280 00:17:27.875 --> 00:17:31.315 break that that ground. You've gotta you've gotta kinda do those backstreet 281 00:17:31.315 --> 00:17:34.600 venues. Mhmm. Because it's a good test of your metal as well as it it 282 00:17:34.600 --> 00:17:38.440 is your confidence. You're used to the heckling. You're used to the customer 283 00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:42.255 service dealing with situations. I think if you just go straight onto stage and get 284 00:17:42.255 --> 00:17:46.015 it big, you don't have that same depth to your personality, do you? 285 00:17:46.015 --> 00:17:49.380 No. And I and I had done all of that kind of 286 00:17:49.380 --> 00:17:53.220 mobile DJ. And initially, before I became a club DJ, I'd started 287 00:17:53.220 --> 00:17:56.920 off when I was 15, 16, 17, doing that kind of thing. 288 00:17:57.044 --> 00:18:00.085 And my goal then was to be a club DJ, and I was doing everything 289 00:18:00.085 --> 00:18:03.525 I could to get in clubs, which was very different to working in pubs. 290 00:18:03.525 --> 00:18:07.179 And and and so I managed to to get into the club scene, which 291 00:18:07.179 --> 00:18:10.940 was a a story in itself. But then when I found myself back into 292 00:18:10.940 --> 00:18:14.695 that scene, and I'm now it's 20 years later, and I'm a very 293 00:18:14.695 --> 00:18:18.135 different person. But it yeah. It 294 00:18:18.135 --> 00:18:21.850 slowly improved. And I I think that the where there was 295 00:18:21.850 --> 00:18:25.309 one event where I had this kind of epiphany almost 296 00:18:25.770 --> 00:18:29.465 where I was doing a wedding, and, it was in a venue in Old Street 297 00:18:29.465 --> 00:18:33.065 in Central London. And the venue owner came up to me, and he was this 298 00:18:33.065 --> 00:18:36.105 really tall guy. And he he sort of looked down at me, said, how much 299 00:18:36.105 --> 00:18:39.910 do you charge, mate? And I I said, a £150. He said, 300 00:18:39.910 --> 00:18:43.370 well, I have DJ's charging double. That will you charge a £150 301 00:18:43.669 --> 00:18:47.195 for? And he he said this line that I'll never forget. He said, you're selling 302 00:18:47.195 --> 00:18:51.035 a Ferrari for the price of a 4 Cortina, mate. And he said, you wanna 303 00:18:51.035 --> 00:18:54.770 up your prices. And so the next day I was thinking, why 304 00:18:54.770 --> 00:18:58.610 am I charging 150? And I realized I was charging that because that's 305 00:18:58.610 --> 00:19:02.070 what everyone was charging. And so I didn't really think about 306 00:19:02.475 --> 00:19:05.355 what I should be charging. I just thought, well, that's what I have to charge 307 00:19:05.355 --> 00:19:08.895 because everyone else is charging. I literally doubled my price. 308 00:19:09.115 --> 00:19:12.880 And the next time I went to meet someone about doing their wedding, I thought 309 00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:15.940 there's no way they're gonna book me. Yeah. When it when I say 300. 310 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:19.600 And I soon found that everyone was still booking me. It didn't make any difference 311 00:19:19.600 --> 00:19:23.265 to my booking rate. And then everything changed inside my 312 00:19:23.265 --> 00:19:26.945 head because then I realized, oh, I've got control over my prices. And 313 00:19:26.945 --> 00:19:28.965 before that, I hadn't given it any thought. 314 00:19:31.630 --> 00:19:35.470 Yeah. It's I I when you're pricing things, 315 00:19:35.470 --> 00:19:38.825 you can either work a lot for a little 316 00:19:39.285 --> 00:19:42.805 or you can work a little for a lot, and it's just changing the 317 00:19:42.805 --> 00:19:46.105 ratio somewhat, but having that self belief, that value proposition, 318 00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:50.760 understanding your worth, and then finding the clients that value your 319 00:19:50.760 --> 00:19:54.460 worth. And she say, you'd rather do 320 00:19:54.840 --> 00:19:58.555 5 nights at 1 at at at at at 300 than 321 00:19:58.555 --> 00:20:01.855 10 nights at 1:50. It just makes more sense, doesn't it? Mhmm. 322 00:20:02.315 --> 00:20:05.535 And often you find that you do the same amount of work 323 00:20:06.270 --> 00:20:10.110 but earn more money for that work or you earn 324 00:20:10.110 --> 00:20:13.445 the same money, but do half the work or quarter of the work. And that's 325 00:20:13.445 --> 00:20:16.664 the ratio and that that's the confidence as you build your business, isn't it? 326 00:20:18.965 --> 00:20:22.590 Well and yeah. And once I had that realization that I had a 327 00:20:22.590 --> 00:20:26.110 lot more control, I went, I mean, it 328 00:20:26.110 --> 00:20:29.330 just a change from 300 329 00:20:30.415 --> 00:20:34.095 in and by that was around the early 2000. And by the 330 00:20:34.095 --> 00:20:37.695 early, teens, you know, 2012 or 331 00:20:37.695 --> 00:20:40.880 13, I was charging probably about 332 00:20:41.580 --> 00:20:44.800 8 times that I was in around £2,000 for a wedding. 333 00:20:45.865 --> 00:20:49.385 But then I was offering far more because I'd I'd trained myself in many 334 00:20:49.385 --> 00:20:53.164 different areas. I trained myself in to be a master of ceremonies. 335 00:20:53.560 --> 00:20:57.240 I'd done a lot of public speaking training. I'd and, and I'd done 336 00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:00.940 other things that had no connection with DJ Joanne like comedy and improvisation 337 00:21:01.240 --> 00:21:03.695 and emotional intelligence and all these other areas 338 00:21:04.795 --> 00:21:07.695 which helped me to reach a different type of client. 339 00:21:09.035 --> 00:21:12.820 Yeah. The value add. None you weren't just nothing 340 00:21:12.820 --> 00:21:16.660 wrong with being just a DJ, but you you were adding more value, which 341 00:21:16.660 --> 00:21:20.035 is what the clients perceived. And as you say, you are finding different 342 00:21:20.035 --> 00:21:23.795 opportunities than you would have before. And I suppose your 343 00:21:23.795 --> 00:21:27.430 reputation traveled further. Once you're in that different 344 00:21:27.430 --> 00:21:31.270 market, you don't compete. Yeah. You set you set the standard, don't you, 345 00:21:31.270 --> 00:21:35.025 at that point? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And it didn't 346 00:21:35.185 --> 00:21:39.025 You mentioned emotional intelligence. You mentioned you mentioned 347 00:21:39.025 --> 00:21:42.565 emotional intelligence, and you said you trained in it. So 348 00:21:42.850 --> 00:21:46.049 I'm a I'm a great believer in when we when I talk about DNI and 349 00:21:46.049 --> 00:21:49.650 inclusion around one of the biggest 350 00:21:49.650 --> 00:21:53.075 anxieties people have is the fear of getting it wrong. How do I have a 351 00:21:53.075 --> 00:21:56.835 conversation with someone who has a disability? How do I have a conversation with 352 00:21:56.835 --> 00:22:00.595 black when I'm white? How do I engage with people who are 353 00:22:00.595 --> 00:22:03.980 different to me? And I always come back to this emotional intelligence. It's 354 00:22:03.980 --> 00:22:07.520 about knowing how to have a conversation with anybody, 355 00:22:07.660 --> 00:22:11.045 therefore, everybody is accessible to you. And it's the 356 00:22:11.045 --> 00:22:14.405 basic skills around reading people, the open 357 00:22:14.405 --> 00:22:17.865 questions, being able to pick up on empathy, compassion, 358 00:22:18.380 --> 00:22:22.140 we how how people are reacting to you. It's all of that kind of stuff 359 00:22:22.140 --> 00:22:25.900 built in, isn't it? So what what where has it taken 360 00:22:25.900 --> 00:22:27.920 you in that in that sort of experience? 361 00:22:30.845 --> 00:22:34.685 Emotional intelligence made quite a big difference because it helped 362 00:22:34.685 --> 00:22:38.400 me see things in a very different way. It helped 363 00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:42.160 me. It it wasn't actually just in my at the time, I would 364 00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:46.000 just dived into studying and reading a lot 365 00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:49.765 on all sorts of different subjects. And I'm I remember 366 00:22:50.544 --> 00:22:54.385 around that same period as I was learning more about emotional intelligence and 367 00:22:54.385 --> 00:22:57.920 how to use it and how that would help me with the people that I 368 00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:01.280 was speaking with and trying to find new clients and whatever the case might 369 00:23:01.280 --> 00:23:05.054 be. But I also, at the same time, learned not 370 00:23:05.674 --> 00:23:09.195 to see myself as a victim. Jo that wasn't so much emotion intelligence. That was 371 00:23:09.195 --> 00:23:12.649 some of the psychology stuff I was working. And that up until 372 00:23:12.649 --> 00:23:16.330 then, I think I sometimes did see myself as a victim, and it 373 00:23:16.330 --> 00:23:19.529 wasn't helping me in any way. So it was a combination of those two things 374 00:23:19.529 --> 00:23:23.085 really, really changed my my thinking. 375 00:23:23.385 --> 00:23:26.925 And, I think I've enjoyed life a lot more since then. 376 00:23:28.700 --> 00:23:32.240 Mind me asking, why did you feel a victim? 377 00:23:32.620 --> 00:23:36.220 What led you to feel that? Well, I was going through 378 00:23:36.220 --> 00:23:39.645 a difficult separation with my ex, and I 379 00:23:40.105 --> 00:23:42.985 had to take her to court a few times to see my daughter because she 380 00:23:42.985 --> 00:23:46.669 wasn't letting me see my daughter. And so I was and there were some 381 00:23:47.130 --> 00:23:50.970 kind of horrible things that went on, but instead of, yeah, I 382 00:23:50.970 --> 00:23:54.705 was playing the victim too too much in that whole situation. And 383 00:23:54.705 --> 00:23:58.144 rather than taking responsibility where I I was at fault as 384 00:23:58.144 --> 00:24:01.800 well, there she was definitely at fault for some things, but there 385 00:24:01.800 --> 00:24:05.080 were things where I was down to fault. I I was at fault, and I 386 00:24:05.080 --> 00:24:07.180 wasn't taking responsibility for that. 387 00:24:09.025 --> 00:24:12.725 Yeah. It I someone taught me 388 00:24:12.865 --> 00:24:15.425 or made me aware of the fact that you have to be accountable for your 389 00:24:15.425 --> 00:24:19.030 own actions, your own footprint, your own impact on the 390 00:24:19.030 --> 00:24:22.570 world. And once you can understand who you are 391 00:24:23.430 --> 00:24:26.855 and how people perceive you, that self awareness, that makes 392 00:24:26.855 --> 00:24:30.635 you a better person in the world because you 393 00:24:31.015 --> 00:24:32.955 have that self awareness and you're 394 00:24:34.730 --> 00:24:38.410 you don't want to be a negative impact on on anybody else because of 395 00:24:38.410 --> 00:24:42.090 that. It's waking up and and appreciating that is a 396 00:24:42.090 --> 00:24:43.470 real awakening, I found. 397 00:24:46.665 --> 00:24:50.505 I I think also and to touch back on earlier, you know, I mentioned about 398 00:24:50.505 --> 00:24:54.350 when I was working in all those different countries, something that I learned when I 399 00:24:54.350 --> 00:24:58.030 was doing that whole kind of, you know, I was in working 400 00:24:58.030 --> 00:25:01.090 around Europe and the Middle East and the Far East and 401 00:25:01.585 --> 00:25:05.365