Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host for
Joanne Lockwood: the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a
Joanne Lockwood: number of amazing people that simply had a conversation about the subject
Joanne Lockwood: of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better
Joanne Lockwood: place for everyone to thrive. If If you'd like to join me in the future,
Joanne Lockwood: then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk.
Joanne Lockwood: You can catch up with all of the previous shows on Itunes, Spotify
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Joanne Lockwood: grab a decaf and let's get going.
Joanne Lockwood: Today is episode 38 with the title,
Joanne Lockwood: secrets from the habitologist. And I have the
Joanne Lockwood: absolute honor and privilege to be joined by Tony Winyard.
Joanne Lockwood: Tony describes himself as someone who helps people create
Joanne Lockwood: habits that become automatic. When I asked Tony to describe
Joanne Lockwood: his superpower, he said, it is the ability to
Joanne Lockwood: assimilate pretty quickly to most places that he goes.
Joanne Lockwood: Hello, Tony. Welcome to the show. Hi, Jo. It's great
Tony Winyard: to be here. So thank you for inviting me. No. It's absolute pleasure. I've been
Joanne Lockwood: looking forward to this, for a long time, meeting some of the, the show
Joanne Lockwood: notes you've put together beforehand that you've had a pretty interesting life and I
Joanne Lockwood: love it. Can't wait to find out more. Jo, Tony, when we
Joanne Lockwood: talked earlier, we talked about, you have a nickname of of the hepatologist.
Joanne Lockwood: And so what are the secrets of a hepatologist?
Tony Winyard: So the reason how that came about was I interviewed
Tony Winyard: someone on my podcast, a few months ago, and they
Tony Winyard: I'm trying to remember what their title was, but their title was somethingologist. It
Tony Winyard: was about something that they did, and it's it's it's gone through my mind. But
Tony Winyard: it stuck me, and I thought that was quite unique. And at the time, I
Tony Winyard: was training to become a tiny habits coach.
Tony Winyard: And and I just played around with the habitologists, and I looked around on
Tony Winyard: Google and see if many anyone was using it. And it originally, it
Tony Winyard: was just something for a bit of fun. And a couple of people said they
Tony Winyard: quite liked it. So I I don't use it often, but I do use it
Tony Winyard: sometimes. That's neat too.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, when I talk, in the DNI space
Joanne Lockwood: around bringing change, a lot of it is around
Joanne Lockwood: nudges, which I guess are tiny habits, small micro
Joanne Lockwood: changes around process, around beliefs, about
Joanne Lockwood: framing that can have a huge impact. So is that what you
Joanne Lockwood: do in terms of creating these new habits? Yeah.
Tony Winyard: Well, yeah, it very much is. And and how it
Tony Winyard: all came about really was I've been for a few years now I've been immersing
Tony Winyard: myself in studying in various areas of health, so
Tony Winyard: nutrition and sleep and movement and breathing
Tony Winyard: and and so on. And I I found I had a very good
Tony Winyard: knowledge about all of this. And I was able to give people lots of knowledge,
Tony Winyard: but that wasn't really necessarily helping them implement
Tony Winyard: the things I was talking about into their everyday of life
Tony Winyard: and actually maybe eating better or sleeping better or whatever the case
Tony Winyard: was. And when I discovered this book, tiny
Tony Winyard: habits, that was kind of like the missing piece of the puzzle because then I
Tony Winyard: was able to help people make it into a habit to sleep better or into
Tony Winyard: a habit to eat better or whatever the case was.
Joanne Lockwood: We we keep looking for these massive changes in in our lives sometimes, don't we?
Joanne Lockwood: And it becomes unrealistic, unsustainable, unfulfillable.
Joanne Lockwood: We wanna lose all this weight. We wanna become fitter. So we
Joanne Lockwood: always embark on these big ticket programs, which
Joanne Lockwood: don't hit the mark, do they? So tiny habits, a way of achieving a
Joanne Lockwood: goal without investing your life into it. It's just incremental.
Tony Winyard: Yeah. And it has to start small because if you try to start to if
Tony Winyard: you want to run a marathon, you don't start running 20 miles every day because
Tony Winyard: it's you're probably gonna fail. But if you start by running just around the
Tony Winyard: block and then you slowly build up and, you know, and you
Tony Winyard: scale up over time, you're more likely to succeed. And that's the
Tony Winyard: same for anything, really. We it's if we can start very small
Tony Winyard: and it could even be just as small as, well, I'm gonna start
Tony Winyard: running, but I'm not maybe I'm not really so keen on running. You just put
Tony Winyard: your shoes out in front of the door. You're you're running shoes in
Tony Winyard: front of the door. And maybe for the 1st couple of days, you don't even
Tony Winyard: run, but you just see the shoes there and it puts it in your mind.
Tony Winyard: And then you build up from there. But, yeah, if you start off tiny, you're
Tony Winyard: more likely to succeed in whatever behavior you're trying to
Tony Winyard: automate. That's interesting. I I I'm
Joanne Lockwood: most people would probably describe me as unfit, and I I wouldn't disagree with them.
Joanne Lockwood: I need to do something about my activity, and I we moved our house recently
Joanne Lockwood: into the countryside, and I decided that my my new
Joanne Lockwood: habit was gonna be go for cycle ride. So I bought a bicycle,
Joanne Lockwood: and it I I had a
Joanne Lockwood: overambitious expectation of my own physical ability.
Joanne Lockwood: I thought, oh, I can jump on a bike. I said, it can't be that
Joanne Lockwood: difficult. I've I've used to ride a bike every day to school and in
Joanne Lockwood: my I've been to center parks like you do. And I
Joanne Lockwood: suddenly realized that I'm now 56, very
Joanne Lockwood: overweight, and that I'm not as fit as I thought I was. And, my
Joanne Lockwood: first five miles, I think I felt like I needed
Joanne Lockwood: oxygen when I got home and I did it. I made it. I cracked it.
Joanne Lockwood: I went to the place and came back again. But I've now I'm gonna readjust
Joanne Lockwood: my expectations, and I'm gonna do probably a quarter mile
Joanne Lockwood: for a week and then then half a mile that I've got. I know where
Joanne Lockwood: the next lamppost is, and I'm just gonna aim by the lamppost or aim by
Joanne Lockwood: the trees and then try and build it up. So you're you're quite right.
Joanne Lockwood: And I think if I keep holding on to this, I must achieve
Joanne Lockwood: this massive goal. I'd have now I'll never do it, but I think just
Joanne Lockwood: something realistic. 10 minutes is is not a is not a defeatist. It's a
Joanne Lockwood: realism. And I think you're quite right. Well, and another element
Tony Winyard: of what you just said, because by when it sounded from what
Tony Winyard: you were saying, when you did that 5 miles, it wasn't fun. And if it's
Tony Winyard: not fun, you're unlikely to repeat it again. But if you make it very short,
Tony Winyard: you're more likely to enjoy it. And that's a massive part of making
Tony Winyard: something automate, you know, automate. You have to enjoy it.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. My goal,
Joanne Lockwood: and this is my vision, is pick up on a Sunday morning,
Joanne Lockwood: cycle to the farm shop, pick up some eggs and bacon, cycle
Joanne Lockwood: home and cook it. So my test cycle was
Joanne Lockwood: to the farm shop and back. But when I got back, I was
Joanne Lockwood: in no fit state to cook anything. Jo so
Joanne Lockwood: that's the bit I gotta work on. It's better get there and back and enjoy
Joanne Lockwood: it and be able to talk when I get home and be able to enjoy
Joanne Lockwood: cooking the food when I bought it. So, yeah, I know I can do it
Joanne Lockwood: now. I know it's within my reach. I just now need to improve that and,
Joanne Lockwood: and go off more regular cycles. But, yeah, so it's really interesting about this habits
Joanne Lockwood: thing, and I think I've already sussed out. I need to develop the habit
Joanne Lockwood: Mhmm. Of looking out the window and going, now I could do 10 minutes while
Joanne Lockwood: I'm thinking. This before, I was thinking, oh, I need to wait. I need to
Joanne Lockwood: find an hour or 2 to do this. Mhmm. I don't. I just need to
Joanne Lockwood: think, like, I think in 10 minute chunks. I can go down to the end
Joanne Lockwood: of the road and back again. Yeah. That's still a win, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah.
Tony Winyard: It's a much bigger win. It's yeah. Consistency.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you've had a you've had a pretty fantastic
Joanne Lockwood: life where I can read from what you sent me. You've lived in 11
Joanne Lockwood: countries. Yeah. And you're just radio presenting as well in
Joanne Lockwood: your past. That and that sounds really intriguing. Tell me tell me about that.
Tony Winyard: Yeah. I I've worked on radio in a few different countries. And
Tony Winyard: in one of the countries, I was in Indonesia for a few years.
Tony Winyard: And I I was at the time, I was working as a
Tony Winyard: DJ in a nightclub in Indonesia. And the the kind
Tony Winyard: of equivalent of Capitol Radio, I'm from London, so Capitol Radio is
Tony Winyard: my, you know, how are the landmark I would use. And the
Tony Winyard: equivalent of Capital Radio in Jakarta was a station called Tulijayo, and
Tony Winyard: they asked me and the the local DJ I work
Tony Winyard: with to come into their station to interview on their breakfast
Tony Winyard: show. And I'd already worked on radio in some other
Tony Winyard: countries previously. And at the end of the interview, I just
Tony Winyard: I made a couple of comments about the station and some improvements I
Tony Winyard: thought that they might be interested in that would make this show
Tony Winyard: run smoother and and some other things. I can't even remember what it was I
Tony Winyard: suggested. But they turned around to me and say, well, why don't you have your
Tony Winyard: own show? And I was, yeah. Okay. And
Tony Winyard: and then I so I started doing a weekly show, and they gave me
Tony Winyard: complete carte blanche into whatever music I wanted to play because I had a
Tony Winyard: pretty good music knowledge Joanne collection. But the more interesting
Tony Winyard: thing happened was I was the only native English speaker on the station.
Tony Winyard: And Jakarta is a city of 8, 9,000,000 people.
Tony Winyard: And it's quite a a lot of major artists perform
Tony Winyard: in Jakarta on their Asian leg of their tour, like,
Tony Winyard: major, major artists. And so a lot they were often
Tony Winyard: getting interview slots for some of these people. And they
Tony Winyard: started to ask me, would I interview the people? Not because I was any
Tony Winyard: thing special as an interviewer, but because I spoke English as in my native
Tony Winyard: language. And so I got to interview Jon Bon Jovi and
Tony Winyard: Cindy Crawford and Steven Seagull and you be free. All sorts of
Tony Winyard: very famous people. As I said, not because I was anything special, but
Tony Winyard: because I was a native English speaker.
Joanne Lockwood: That's fascinating. I mean, that must have been kind of
Joanne Lockwood: I guess, from the start, you must have had that that the nerves were sort
Joanne Lockwood: of, like, shaky Joanne, wobbly voice. Are you in
Joanne Lockwood: awe? Or did you overcome that pretty quick? Now
Tony Winyard: I'm I wasn't. Now I wasn't in awe.
Tony Winyard: I for some reason, I've never had that I don't get
Tony Winyard: that kind of, starstruck thing. But
Tony Winyard: what I where I did go wrong, and it's
Tony Winyard: actually it's interesting interesting to something that we were talking about before we
Tony Winyard: started recording. You you talked about your style that you like to do to show
Tony Winyard: the kind of conversational style. And at the start of
Tony Winyard: these interviews, I was doing a ton of research on every
Tony Winyard: person I was interviewing. I had all these all this information about them, the
Tony Winyard: things they did and when they'd released records and films and whatever it
Tony Winyard: was. And I was just asked going for a series of questions
Tony Winyard: in these the first few of the, interviews that I did.
Tony Winyard: And it took me a while to realize that there was no flow. It was
Tony Winyard: just a series of questions. And and then I can't
Tony Winyard: remember who it was. But for one interview, I thought what
Tony Winyard: I'm been doing hasn't really been working. Maybe I
Tony Winyard: just need to have a conversation and be confident enough to not
Tony Winyard: have any information on the person and just simply to have a
Tony Winyard: conversation and see how that goes. And it went so much better.
Tony Winyard: And I never knew where the episode was going to go, where the conversation was
Tony Winyard: going to go. And the the interviews were a 100, sometimes better. And
Tony Winyard: I've just always done interviews that way ever since. And that was
Tony Winyard: in in the mid nineties, something like that.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, I often sort of beat myself up because I feel like I'm winging
Joanne Lockwood: it. But sometimes, winging it is actually more natural, more
Joanne Lockwood: authentic, more interesting when when I don't know where the
Joanne Lockwood: conversation's going, you don't know the conversation's going, and therefore the listener is
Joanne Lockwood: following on that. As you say, if I if I was too prescriptive here and
Joanne Lockwood: I've got your bio out and I ask you all this stuff, it's gonna sound
Joanne Lockwood: quite, you know, almost like fake or or
Joanne Lockwood: prepared. Well, I've done I don't know about you. I've been on
Tony Winyard: some podcasts where I have just been the the the
Tony Winyard: host has just had a series of questions. I I remember one
Tony Winyard: was it was literally just question after question, and there wasn't any
Tony Winyard: connection between the questions. And it was so stunted. There
Tony Winyard: wasn't any flow to it at all. Yeah. I Jo a
Joanne Lockwood: lot of panel shows, for corporate events.
Joanne Lockwood: So they they want me to present or I often try and encourage them to
Joanne Lockwood: interview me live and get the q and a going for the audience.
Joanne Lockwood: And they always want me to give them a whole load of questions or give
Joanne Lockwood: them all the all the things. I said, well, look, can't we just make it
Joanne Lockwood: obviously Jo? But I suppose that requires a confidence
Joanne Lockwood: in the host, doesn't it? And I suppose I've gotta be careful here that I'm
Joanne Lockwood: not imprinting my confidence into somebody else who may not have it.
Joanne Lockwood: So, yeah, it it's it's nice to have a few prepared questions, I
Joanne Lockwood: guess, but it's nice to go off piece quite quickly. Mhmm. Well and
Tony Winyard: and, actually, I I had a couple of comments from some of these,
Tony Winyard: like, mega stars who and they were being interviewed all day long by various
Tony Winyard: radio stations, TV stations, newspapers, and so on.
Tony Winyard: And a couple of times, these conversations, as I say, just went off on a
Tony Winyard: real tangent. And a couple of times, the start the end of the
Tony Winyard: interview would say, wow, I really enjoyed that because we covered some ground.
Tony Winyard: I haven't covered in any every other interview has just been question after
Tony Winyard: question, but we discussed some stuff today that I haven't brought up in
Tony Winyard: any of the interviews. And so that reinforced my
Tony Winyard: confidence to continue doing that.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Brilliant. Is so you worked in 11 countries around the world.
Joanne Lockwood: You did a lot of DJ ing. You met a lot of celebrities, became a
Joanne Lockwood: kind of like a an A list hangar outer.
Joanne Lockwood: And what you came back to the UK after that, after a few years to
Joanne Lockwood: 2? Yeah. I'd I mean, it sounds very glamorous. And in some
Tony Winyard: ways, it was. I mean, I was yeah. I worked in all those different countries,
Tony Winyard: and I was being usually the I was working
Tony Winyard: the best club in each of the cities that I was working in. And so
Tony Winyard: the club was usually 4, and it was people wanted to know
Tony Winyard: the DJ. And I was it was good, and it but
Tony Winyard: eventually, I got tired of it. I got tired of virtually living out of
Tony Winyard: a suitcase and going to a country where I didn't know anybody. I'd
Tony Winyard: made lots of good friends. And then there was always a scene at the
Tony Winyard: airport where I've got all these people saying goodbye to me. And I know I'm
Tony Winyard: probably never going to see most of them again. And then I go to another
Tony Winyard: country and I start this whole thing fresh. And after a while,
Tony Winyard: it was a combination of, I got tired of that after a while, but also
Tony Winyard: I'd been away from England for 12 years. I thought, yeah, maybe
Tony Winyard: but the first 10 years, I didn't miss England at all. Whenever anyone said to
Tony Winyard: me, are you gonna go back to London? My reaction was normally, why
Tony Winyard: would I wanna go back there? But then eventually I started to miss
Tony Winyard: things. And plus at the same time, my mom started to
Tony Winyard: lose her eyesight And I thought, okay, now is a good
Tony Winyard: time to go home. So, yeah, after 12 years, I I returned.
Joanne Lockwood: The DJ ing or or something else? Well, and yeah,
Tony Winyard: I I also got fed up with club DJ ing, so
Tony Winyard: I didn't want to continue working as a DJ,
Tony Winyard: but I didn't, I wasn't really qualified to do anything else. And I didn't know
Tony Winyard: what I wanted to do. And my best friend who I'd known since
Tony Winyard: we're, like, we're the same age and we're we're 14 days apart in our
Tony Winyard: birthdays, and we went to the same school and everything, and our parents know each
Tony Winyard: other. And he's he was working as a financial adviser, and he had
Tony Winyard: we had way too many clients. And he said, Artem, why don't you come and
Tony Winyard: work with me? I can't handle all these clients I've got, and I can we
Tony Winyard: can get you trained as a financial adviser. And so I did that. I went
Tony Winyard: forward to train him. And it was such a big mistake
Tony Winyard: because I am just not cut out to do something like that.
Tony Winyard: I I had a ball in having a
Tony Winyard: I I made no money at it because I didn't have any belief in
Tony Winyard: what I was doing. And, but then what happened, I ended
Tony Winyard: up people were offering me DJ work, but this time as a
Tony Winyard: wedding DJ, which is very different to a club DJ. And
Tony Winyard: so I ended up doing that just to make some money because I wasn't making
Tony Winyard: any money in in trying to sell financial services. And so I ended up working
Tony Winyard: as a as a wedding DJ. Wow. That's a
Joanne Lockwood: big difference. So Jo your was it transit van, a load of load of
Joanne Lockwood: amps and speakers and lights on on the on the road kicking it for
Joanne Lockwood: you? Yeah. And it started off. I because
Tony Winyard: I'd been away for so long, I didn't really have a
Tony Winyard: reputation. You know? And and as I say, a wedding DJ, the typical
Tony Winyard: person, a couple who is gonna book you for a wedding, they would never have
Tony Winyard: heard of me as a club DJ, especially I'd been away for so long. So
Tony Winyard: my reputation didn't count for anything as far as weddings were concerned. And so I
Tony Winyard: started off almost at the bottom of the rung earning really poor
Tony Winyard: money and not particularly
Tony Winyard: been respected. I mean, it wasn't a great
Tony Winyard: experience at the beginning.
Joanne Lockwood: But I found that as a professional speaker. You do your first
Joanne Lockwood: your first gigs now. I always think about when I watch the Freddie
Joanne Lockwood: Mercury film and the history of Queen.
Joanne Lockwood: Literally all these mega bands, all these world famous rock stars all
Joanne Lockwood: started off lugging their kit in the back of a transit in a in a
Joanne Lockwood: dirty, dingy, smelly pub somewhere and then moving on to the next
Joanne Lockwood: venue the next night. And I think as performers, whether you're a
Joanne Lockwood: comedian, whether you're a DJ, whether you're a speaker, wherever you are, you've gotta
Joanne Lockwood: break that that ground. You've gotta you've gotta kinda do those backstreet
Joanne Lockwood: venues. Mhmm. Because it's a good test of your metal as well as it it
Joanne Lockwood: is your confidence. You're used to the heckling. You're used to the customer
Joanne Lockwood: service dealing with situations. I think if you just go straight onto stage and get
Joanne Lockwood: it big, you don't have that same depth to your personality, do you?
Tony Winyard: No. And I and I had done all of that kind of
Tony Winyard: mobile DJ. And initially, before I became a club DJ, I'd started
Tony Winyard: off when I was 15, 16, 17, doing that kind of thing.
Tony Winyard: And my goal then was to be a club DJ, and I was doing everything
Tony Winyard: I could to get in clubs, which was very different to working in pubs.
Tony Winyard: And and and so I managed to to get into the club scene, which
Tony Winyard: was a a story in itself. But then when I found myself back into
Tony Winyard: that scene, and I'm now it's 20 years later, and I'm a very
Tony Winyard: different person. But it yeah. It
Tony Winyard: slowly improved. And I I think that the where there was
Tony Winyard: one event where I had this kind of epiphany almost
Tony Winyard: where I was doing a wedding, and, it was in a venue in Old Street
Tony Winyard: in Central London. And the venue owner came up to me, and he was this
Tony Winyard: really tall guy. And he he sort of looked down at me, said, how much
Tony Winyard: do you charge, mate? And I I said, a £150. He said,
Tony Winyard: well, I have DJ's charging double. That will you charge a £150
Tony Winyard: for? And he he said this line that I'll never forget. He said, you're selling
Tony Winyard: a Ferrari for the price of a 4 Cortina, mate. And he said, you wanna
Tony Winyard: up your prices. And so the next day I was thinking, why
Tony Winyard: am I charging 150? And I realized I was charging that because that's
Tony Winyard: what everyone was charging. And so I didn't really think about
Tony Winyard: what I should be charging. I just thought, well, that's what I have to charge
Tony Winyard: because everyone else is charging. I literally doubled my price.
Tony Winyard: And the next time I went to meet someone about doing their wedding, I thought
Tony Winyard: there's no way they're gonna book me. Yeah. When it when I say 300.
Tony Winyard: And I soon found that everyone was still booking me. It didn't make any difference
Tony Winyard: to my booking rate. And then everything changed inside my
Tony Winyard: head because then I realized, oh, I've got control over my prices. And
Tony Winyard: before that, I hadn't given it any thought.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. It's I I when you're pricing things,
Joanne Lockwood: you can either work a lot for a little
Joanne Lockwood: or you can work a little for a lot, and it's just changing the
Joanne Lockwood: ratio somewhat, but having that self belief, that value proposition,
Joanne Lockwood: understanding your worth, and then finding the clients that value your
Joanne Lockwood: worth. And she say, you'd rather do
Joanne Lockwood: 5 nights at 1 at at at at at 300 than
Joanne Lockwood: 10 nights at 1:50. It just makes more sense, doesn't it? Mhmm.
Joanne Lockwood: And often you find that you do the same amount of work
Joanne Lockwood: but earn more money for that work or you earn
Joanne Lockwood: the same money, but do half the work or quarter of the work. And that's
Joanne Lockwood: the ratio and that that's the confidence as you build your business, isn't it?
Tony Winyard: Well and yeah. And once I had that realization that I had a
Tony Winyard: lot more control, I went, I mean, it
Tony Winyard: just a change from 300
Tony Winyard: in and by that was around the early 2000. And by the
Tony Winyard: early, teens, you know, 2012 or
Tony Winyard: 13, I was charging probably about
Tony Winyard: 8 times that I was in around £2,000 for a wedding.
Tony Winyard: But then I was offering far more because I'd I'd trained myself in many
Tony Winyard: different areas. I trained myself in to be a master of ceremonies.
Tony Winyard: I'd done a lot of public speaking training. I'd and, and I'd done
Tony Winyard: other things that had no connection with DJ Joanne like comedy and improvisation
Tony Winyard: and emotional intelligence and all these other areas
Tony Winyard: which helped me to reach a different type of client.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. The value add. None you weren't just nothing
Joanne Lockwood: wrong with being just a DJ, but you you were adding more value, which
Joanne Lockwood: is what the clients perceived. And as you say, you are finding different
Joanne Lockwood: opportunities than you would have before. And I suppose your
Joanne Lockwood: reputation traveled further. Once you're in that different
Joanne Lockwood: market, you don't compete. Yeah. You set you set the standard, don't you,
Joanne Lockwood: at that point? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And it didn't
Tony Winyard: You mentioned emotional intelligence. You mentioned you mentioned
Joanne Lockwood: emotional intelligence, and you said you trained in it. So
Joanne Lockwood: I'm a I'm a great believer in when we when I talk about DNI and
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion around one of the biggest
Joanne Lockwood: anxieties people have is the fear of getting it wrong. How do I have a
Joanne Lockwood: conversation with someone who has a disability? How do I have a conversation with
Joanne Lockwood: black when I'm white? How do I engage with people who are
Joanne Lockwood: different to me? And I always come back to this emotional intelligence. It's
Joanne Lockwood: about knowing how to have a conversation with anybody,
Joanne Lockwood: therefore, everybody is accessible to you. And it's the
Joanne Lockwood: basic skills around reading people, the open
Joanne Lockwood: questions, being able to pick up on empathy, compassion,
Joanne Lockwood: we how how people are reacting to you. It's all of that kind of stuff
Joanne Lockwood: built in, isn't it? So what what where has it taken
Joanne Lockwood: you in that in that sort of experience?
Tony Winyard: Emotional intelligence made quite a big difference because it helped
Tony Winyard: me see things in a very different way. It helped
Tony Winyard: me. It it wasn't actually just in my at the time, I would
Tony Winyard: just dived into studying and reading a lot
Tony Winyard: on all sorts of different subjects. And I'm I remember
Tony Winyard: around that same period as I was learning more about emotional intelligence and
Tony Winyard: how to use it and how that would help me with the people that I
Tony Winyard: was speaking with and trying to find new clients and whatever the case might
Tony Winyard: be. But I also, at the same time, learned not
Tony Winyard: to see myself as a victim. Jo that wasn't so much emotion intelligence. That was
Tony Winyard: some of the psychology stuff I was working. And that up until
Tony Winyard: then, I think I sometimes did see myself as a victim, and it
Tony Winyard: wasn't helping me in any way. So it was a combination of those two things
Tony Winyard: really, really changed my my thinking.
Tony Winyard: And, I think I've enjoyed life a lot more since then.
Joanne Lockwood: Mind me asking, why did you feel a victim?
Joanne Lockwood: What led you to feel that? Well, I was going through
Tony Winyard: a difficult separation with my ex, and I
Tony Winyard: had to take her to court a few times to see my daughter because she
Tony Winyard: wasn't letting me see my daughter. And so I was and there were some
Tony Winyard: kind of horrible things that went on, but instead of, yeah, I
Tony Winyard: was playing the victim too too much in that whole situation. And
Tony Winyard: rather than taking responsibility where I I was at fault as
Tony Winyard: well, there she was definitely at fault for some things, but there
Tony Winyard: were things where I was down to fault. I I was at fault, and I
Tony Winyard: wasn't taking responsibility for that.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. It I someone taught me
Joanne Lockwood: or made me aware of the fact that you have to be accountable for your
Joanne Lockwood: own actions, your own footprint, your own impact on the
Joanne Lockwood: world. And once you can understand who you are
Joanne Lockwood: and how people perceive you, that self awareness, that makes
Joanne Lockwood: you a better person in the world because you
Joanne Lockwood: have that self awareness and you're
Joanne Lockwood: you don't want to be a negative impact on on anybody else because of
Joanne Lockwood: that. It's waking up and and appreciating that is a
Joanne Lockwood: real awakening, I found.
Joanne Lockwood: I I think also and to touch back on earlier, you know, I mentioned about
Tony Winyard: when I was working in all those different countries, something that I learned when I
Tony Winyard: was doing that whole kind of, you know, I was in working
Tony Winyard: around Europe and the Middle East and the Far East and
Tony Winyard: which were all very different environments and very different culturally.
Tony Winyard: And and I learned for start, initially,
Tony Winyard: I had to speak very differently because when I first left London, I had
Tony Winyard: quite a strong London accent. And I realized that people couldn't understand
Tony Winyard: me. I was talking too fast. I was using slang. And so I
Tony Winyard: taught myself to speak much slower, to, you know, get
Tony Winyard: rid of the slang. And and then each of the
Tony Winyard: countries I was in were were I mean, from some countries that are very
Tony Winyard: rich, like Japan and Switzerland, to some countries that are extremely poor, like
Tony Winyard: Indonesia and Syria. And so there were some very extremes.
Tony Winyard: And I taught myself to how to
Tony Winyard: I learned quickly how to adapt to very different situations, you
Tony Winyard: know, and the way that I would the people I was meeting and the way
Tony Winyard: they were responding to me was very different. So that taught me a
Tony Winyard: lot, I think, about emotional intelligence in some ways as well.
Joanne Lockwood: That's interesting you mentioned that. I I I travel quite
Joanne Lockwood: extensively in my early thirties. I was to work
Joanne Lockwood: for an international private bank, which had offices in many
Joanne Lockwood: countries, mainly the higher end of the
Joanne Lockwood: food chain, so the more affluent market.
Joanne Lockwood: And I also also a member of a club which I call my
Joanne Lockwood: student being the national president at one point and that was an international club and
Joanne Lockwood: I used to go on lots of international trips, staying in people's houses in
Joanne Lockwood: various countries Joanne then living with with with the
Joanne Lockwood: culture. And I I learned,
Joanne Lockwood: this was probably back in the mid to late nineties I started this,
Joanne Lockwood: where the level of English spoken by people
Joanne Lockwood: who lived in other parts of Europe or other parts of the world wasn't as
Joanne Lockwood: advanced as it is today. People were learning English, but not
Joanne Lockwood: fluently. And so I I learned pretty quickly that you had to speak with a
Joanne Lockwood: rhythm, with a certain pace, be very conscious about the words
Joanne Lockwood: that you would use in your language. And I wouldn't say being
Joanne Lockwood: patronizing, but being very deliberate about what you were trying to
Joanne Lockwood: say in a way that was clear and not as
Joanne Lockwood: you drift into Yeah. Localisms or
Joanne Lockwood: slang or rolling your words together. So I got very used to
Joanne Lockwood: talking in this very understandable way. And
Joanne Lockwood: people used to say to me, you're so easy to talk to. You're so easy
Joanne Lockwood: to understand. And I've always held that belief
Joanne Lockwood: that make yourself easy to understand. If you want to
Joanne Lockwood: be heard and truly listened to, take responsibility to make sure
Joanne Lockwood: you communicate in a way that people do listen to you. And I
Joanne Lockwood: I still hold that dream today and I still find that people give me feedback
Joanne Lockwood: and say, I speak in a very clear, very evenly
Joanne Lockwood: paced, interesting way, very clear of voice. And I
Joanne Lockwood: think, okay, I don't know where that came from, but obviously, over my
Joanne Lockwood: lifetime, spending my time in different cultures with different
Joanne Lockwood: languages, you get used to communicating in a way that is
Joanne Lockwood: less complex maybe or un without
Joanne Lockwood: unnecessary complexity.
Tony Winyard: And I wonder also if you've well, something that I've it's
Tony Winyard: only recently that I realized this because I I guess it I just took it
Tony Winyard: for granted from for many years. In the last year
Tony Winyard: or last couple of years, there's been a couple of situations where,
Tony Winyard: some people, well, I can just think of one example in particular where
Tony Winyard: a friend of mine who's doing these online courses, he's creating these courses,
Tony Winyard: which have been sold to people in many different countries. And
Tony Winyard: he hasn't really traveled that much. And he was asking
Tony Winyard: me for feedback on some of the copy he was using and some of the
Tony Winyard: things he was signing in the sales videos. And I said to him,
Tony Winyard: what these are going to to to Canada. You told me that you've
Tony Winyard: got clients in Canada and Mexico and some places in South America.
Tony Winyard: And they're not going to understand some of these words you're using.
Tony Winyard: And he hadn't even crossed his mind because they were just words that he used
Tony Winyard: every day. But I knew from being in all those different countries
Tony Winyard: that there were many words that we use on a
Tony Winyard: just without even thinking that people in some other
Tony Winyard: countries, although they've learned English, they just don't understand some of the
Tony Winyard: idioms and phrases that we use. And
Joanne Lockwood: we forget. We pick a lot of our common language up from
Joanne Lockwood: television, TV, the metaphor, similes, and you say
Joanne Lockwood: the idioms we use tend to be very contextual, which
Joanne Lockwood: don't translate. And Mhmm. We've gotta be really, really careful that we're not
Joanne Lockwood: misinterpreted. It's something we we we think we've said is
Joanne Lockwood: clear. And they and I've had people say to me, what do you mean by
Joanne Lockwood: that? I go, oh, you're right. There's no context there, is there?
Joanne Lockwood: There's no background to that phrase that came
Joanne Lockwood: out of a seventies TV program. Jo,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, it's been really, really
Joanne Lockwood: sanitizing your language to make it understand understandable, but
Joanne Lockwood: you're trying to do that on the fly without sounding patronizing,
Joanne Lockwood: without sounding, like you're treating somebody
Joanne Lockwood: as the stupid or an idiot, which can come across if you try
Joanne Lockwood: too hard, but being very natural and flowing and being
Joanne Lockwood: very well paced. And I think speed of talking is very important as
Joanne Lockwood: well. Allowing pauses, allowing reflection time,
Joanne Lockwood: gaps between words. Again, it not just helps people who
Joanne Lockwood: where English is in the first language, but also someone who lip reads,
Joanne Lockwood: someone who is is looking for that that clue for maybe
Joanne Lockwood: the hard of hearing, whatever that may be, is allowing time to process as
Joanne Lockwood: well as not rather than just rush people into the next point.
Tony Winyard: Yeah. And and also, I mean, what you just said there reminded me of a
Tony Winyard: story about the pause is so important in so many
Tony Winyard: different areas of life. I mean, certainly in the situations you were talking
Tony Winyard: about, but it also by having that pause and
Tony Winyard: slowing the pace down, it allows people to whose net
Tony Winyard: who is native language, maybe not English. They've got time to think
Tony Winyard: about what it was you're saying and understand what you're saying. But the story
Tony Winyard: that it really reminded me of, I was doing I did I dabbled in some
Tony Winyard: stand up comedy a few years ago. And I had this little
Tony Winyard: some sketch that I'd written or a series of sketches. And I was trying
Tony Winyard: my hand in different comedy clubs and I wasn't trying to be a comedian. I
Tony Winyard: was just trying to see if I could, I wanted
Tony Winyard: to make people laugh because of the speaking I was doing, and I wanted to
Tony Winyard: be able to inject more humor into my speaking. So I thought, well, this is
Tony Winyard: the true test. If I can make people laugh in a comedy club. Anyway, I
Tony Winyard: had all this my my, whole approach
Tony Winyard: was mostly story led. I didn't really do sort
Tony Winyard: of gags or such. But because I hadn't done this before,
Tony Winyard: I wasn't supremely confident that I was a very good
Tony Winyard: comedian. And for the first couple of gigs I did, I just
Tony Winyard: sort of told a story, bang straight into another story straight. And I didn't
Tony Winyard: really leave any time for people to get some of the stories
Tony Winyard: that I was saying. And so I wasn't getting many laughs. At the
Tony Winyard: 4th gig, I don't know why, but I felt more confident
Tony Winyard: for some reason. It was a maybe it was a nicer atmosphere or something. There
Tony Winyard: was more people. And there was one particular story I had, which was a
Tony Winyard: real wordplay. And at the end of this
Tony Winyard: story, with the kind of wordplay, I paused
Tony Winyard: And the reaction I got, it was only a slight a small pause. And I
Tony Winyard: was about to go on to the next story. And I literally had people standing
Tony Winyard: up and cheering and giving almost, like, a standard narration. Wow, what a
Tony Winyard: difference. Just by pausing for a couple of seconds before moving into
Tony Winyard: the next story. That that sold me a huge huge
Tony Winyard: amount. I've done a couple of stand ups. I must say a
Joanne Lockwood: couple. I've done one routine. I did it 4 or
Joanne Lockwood: 5 times, and I learned very quickly you
Joanne Lockwood: have to let the audience laugh. You have to create space for the audience to
Joanne Lockwood: find something funny. Otherwise, as you say, without the
Joanne Lockwood: pause, there's no opportunity for someone to for the joke to land,
Joanne Lockwood: is there? You have to create that space.
Joanne Lockwood: Obviously, Lockwood kicked in and I haven't furthered the stand
Joanne Lockwood: up, but I'm not sure I enjoyed it. It's a
Joanne Lockwood: bit like we talked at the beginning about these small habits.
Joanne Lockwood: I volunteered to do it because it was way outside of my comfort
Joanne Lockwood: zone. It was like this big thing that I was scared of. I thought,
Joanne Lockwood: well, if I'm scared of it, I've gotta do it. And as a professional
Joanne Lockwood: speaker, I'm used to getting up on stage. So it wasn't it wasn't the fear
Joanne Lockwood: of the stage. It was just I don't know. It was there was a
Joanne Lockwood: fear there that I wasn't happy with. And I remember the Professional
Joanne Lockwood: Speaking Association, and each year at the conference, there's a a 5
Joanne Lockwood: minute comedy slot where any any member could stand up and and sort of
Joanne Lockwood: book a slot, and you get 5 minutes. So I remember sort of the
Joanne Lockwood: convention beforehand saying to the person who's organizing it, I'd like a
Joanne Lockwood: comedy slot next year. And they said to me, you're in. You're the
Joanne Lockwood: first. Tick. Got it. I thought, oh, it's a year
Joanne Lockwood: away. No problem at all.
Joanne Lockwood: About 48 hours before the night, I thought I need to do something.
Joanne Lockwood: I need I need to have a routine. I'm sure other people have rehearsed and
Joanne Lockwood: practiced, but that's not my style. I tend to be a kind of a it
Joanne Lockwood: what it comes to my head, it pops into my mouth and it goes out.
Joanne Lockwood: And I had a whole load of routine. I had I had 4 or 5
Joanne Lockwood: stories, which were actually life anecdotes
Joanne Lockwood: that I knew individually they were funny. I knew individually I
Joanne Lockwood: knew them, so I had a routine. I pieced them together in
Joanne Lockwood: a path and a storyline that worked with a big punch line at the
Joanne Lockwood: end, you know, the closing punch line, the the big laugh. And
Joanne Lockwood: I delivered it to to this this stage, and, I didn't
Joanne Lockwood: win the prize that night. I was beaten by a a
Joanne Lockwood: semi pro after dinner speaker who was was doing this
Joanne Lockwood: routine night in, night out, so I didn't feel too bad about it. But I
Joanne Lockwood: felt I held my own against the other competitors. And
Joanne Lockwood: then I was traveling to Australia to speak at
Joanne Lockwood: a conference over there in Melbourne. And another person, a
Joanne Lockwood: friend of mine, who was also traveling to the same conference to speak
Joanne Lockwood: mentioned the fact they were gonna do their stand up routine at a comedy
Joanne Lockwood: club in Melbourne, downtown Melbourne one night. I just
Joanne Lockwood: emailed back and said, any chance, you could give me the details because I I
Joanne Lockwood: I'll book a slot at the comedy either. So
Joanne Lockwood: however many 1000 miles from home on a Tuesday night and this company club in
Joanne Lockwood: Melbourne, I stand up and give my routine again. And,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, the feedback I got from the the MC Booker
Joanne Lockwood: organizer was I I I raced it. I think my nerves kicked
Joanne Lockwood: in outside my comfort zone. I probably raced it too much.
Joanne Lockwood: And also because they give you a finite time, it's gotta be 5 minutes. You're
Joanne Lockwood: really conscious about the clock, and I was trying to squeeze it in, squeeze it,
Joanne Lockwood: and squeeze it in. I think that was a mistake I made. The next time,
Joanne Lockwood: what I'll do is I'll I need to pace it and have less content
Joanne Lockwood: and make more of it. And I think that's the mistake. It's trying to and
Joanne Lockwood: I think as a speaker, it's the same. You try and put too much in,
Joanne Lockwood: then you end up overloading people. So sometimes less is obviously more. And I
Joanne Lockwood: think with comedy, 4 or 5 well honed
Joanne Lockwood: stories that land are better than 7 or 8 squeezed. I
Joanne Lockwood: learned that. And I I delivered a couple more times since. Once a
Joanne Lockwood: networking night, in London and once a
Joanne Lockwood: at a women's, essential women's day event. I
Joanne Lockwood: delivered as well. Yeah. As I say, I'm not sure if I wanna do it
Joanne Lockwood: again, but I've done it I've done it a few times. And,
Joanne Lockwood: certainly, yeah, learned I learned a lot about
Joanne Lockwood: myself and and
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. And I can be funny. This is probably the most important thing.
Joanne Lockwood: Jo, yeah, I'm a great admirer of anyone who's done to their stand up.
Tony Winyard: Using humor is Jo it's the best way to connect with people, isn't it? Jo
Tony Winyard: that's why, yeah. It's I I I have enormous
Tony Winyard: admiration for some of the, you know,
Tony Winyard: comedians on the scene who are constantly every year, they're rewriting their whole
Tony Winyard: set and they'd go into Edinburgh each year. They deliver they they
Tony Winyard: practice it all year in the lead up to Edinburgh. They deliver it there, and
Tony Winyard: then they begin again almost, and they rewrite a whole new set. And then by
Tony Winyard: Edinburgh, the following year, they've got a completely new set. That's just an amazing
Tony Winyard: ability to be able to do that. Yeah. I used to go and see
Joanne Lockwood: acts at the, the Guildhall in Portsmouth near where I live. And I've seen
Joanne Lockwood: John Bishop. I've seen,
Joanne Lockwood: Mumford. Is it Steve Simon Muff Steven Mumford? Jason Mumford? Jason
Tony Winyard: Mumford. Jason Mumford. Jason Mumford. Jason Mumford. Yeah. Is it Jason Mumford? Yeah. John Bishop,
Joanne Lockwood: Alan Davis. I saw the would I
Joanne Lockwood: lie to you crowd? They did like a little little routine.
Joanne Lockwood: So I yeah. I've seen I've seen quite a few of Jimmy Carr.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's they they create that show for the year for that tour, don't they?
Joanne Lockwood: And they all the gags. One thing I loved about John Bishop was the
Joanne Lockwood: way he set up a whole load of stories all the way through. And at
Joanne Lockwood: the end, he had a slideshow that actually showed the
Joanne Lockwood: stories and actually as they happened, he had this big check about I think it
Joanne Lockwood: was about a llama, and there was him and the llama at the end, and
Joanne Lockwood: it was kind of the way he Joanne that final close, he
Joanne Lockwood: signposted all the way through the just slam dunked at the end. I I was
Joanne Lockwood: a great admiration for the the way he he he created that
Joanne Lockwood: journey. And, I I think you can learn a lot from comedians about how the
Joanne Lockwood: storytelling, how they craft their their their speeches and
Joanne Lockwood: talks and that humor. And, yeah, I'm a I'm a
Joanne Lockwood: great analyzer of stagecraft and how people speak.
Tony Winyard: Yeah. And I agree completely. There's a lot to be learned from
Tony Winyard: professional actually, not even just professional comedians because when I
Tony Winyard: was doing, I did 20 gigs around London
Tony Winyard: and a lot of the people that a lot of places I
Tony Winyard: was working in, we were comedians who were starting from the very beginning. But I
Tony Winyard: got to know a lot of these guys. And as I went to all these
Tony Winyard: different clubs, I got to know some of these comedians on the who would, in
Tony Winyard: the beginning of the the circuit, as far out for them. And
Tony Winyard: I still am in touch with some of these guys, and that was about 10
Tony Winyard: years ago. And now some of the misadams do really well.
Tony Winyard: And they're not famous by any means, but they're starting to
Tony Winyard: earn some money from it now. But they're they're
Joanne Lockwood: a as
Joanne Lockwood: a white English guy, how did people take you?
Joanne Lockwood: How did people find you? Have you got a different view of
Joanne Lockwood: culture, of race, and maybe
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion or discrimination in somebody who maybe hasn't maybe experienced that
Joanne Lockwood: part of the world.
Tony Winyard: Well, yeah. And it's interesting you say as a as a as a white English
Tony Winyard: guy, because I'm not actually a white English guy. I don't that's how I look.
Tony Winyard: I'm actually mixed race. My my father is black.
Tony Winyard: My mother is blonde Irish and but she
Tony Winyard: must have strong genes because I don't have any. Well, I said I don't have
Tony Winyard: any. Most people who look at me
Tony Winyard: believe that I'm just white English because I'm, I've got a very, I've got a
Tony Winyard: slightly olive olive skin, but my facial features
Tony Winyard: are very kind of European. But as I said, my my father is the
Tony Winyard: same shade as, Usain Bolt. You know, he's he's very dark.
Tony Winyard: And so it's been it's interesting for me as as I've grown up and as
Tony Winyard: I've traveled and I've gone to all these different places. And
Tony Winyard: I know that everyone who looks at me looks at me as a
Tony Winyard: white English person. But I haven't necessarily grown up
Tony Winyard: like that because I've grown up. It's sometimes it's been a bit strange when I
Tony Winyard: was growing up because I was very aware that I am mixed
Tony Winyard: race and and who my father is and so on.
Tony Winyard: But I know it was even times when I'd be in a
Tony Winyard: situation where a crowd of guys, maybe some like
Tony Winyard: a football crowd sort of thing. And and there were some quite
Tony Winyard: racist remarks being made, not to me, just being
Tony Winyard: made because they just presumed that I was the same as the rest of them.
Tony Winyard: I was a white English guy. And so in some ways, it's allowed me
Tony Winyard: to see a different side of racism because I see
Tony Winyard: guys who would never be racist in front of someone who was from another
Tony Winyard: race. But when they were just other white people, they extremely
Tony Winyard: racist and believe in that I was just the same as them. And
Tony Winyard: so it's allowed me sometimes to see
Tony Winyard: people for who they really are rather than who they pretend to
Tony Winyard: be when they're in front of someone who is a different
Tony Winyard: race, which is in some ways is good
Tony Winyard: because it's allowed me to listen. People I know who who
Tony Winyard: don't have no idea that I mix race and who I know are actually
Tony Winyard: very racist, inside, but they never show that face when
Tony Winyard: they're in front of black or Asian or or whatever it might be.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes. Interesting. I mean, I I I obviously
Joanne Lockwood: I read the show notes that you sent through, so I was aware about your
Joanne Lockwood: father when I asked the question. So I I didn't want to sort of I
Joanne Lockwood: wanted you to tell your own story, though. But it is interesting
Joanne Lockwood: that you you make assumptions about people around you.
Joanne Lockwood: This tip of the iceberg, these these stereotypes we create, we look at someone, we
Joanne Lockwood: form these judgments very quickly. And how often do we get to know the
Joanne Lockwood: true person, who their family is, who their friends are,
Joanne Lockwood: what interest and what their loves and hates are? And
Joanne Lockwood: I I talk about this when I do my LGBTQ plus training
Joanne Lockwood: all the time. We we don't we can't assume someone's sexuality. We can't assume who
Joanne Lockwood: they're someone's married to, but yet we do. We Joanne an
Joanne Lockwood: assumption that I I know I've got many gay friends
Joanne Lockwood: or or it's always presumed that they're married to a woman or
Joanne Lockwood: if if it becomes if if they say they're married to a man
Joanne Lockwood: and then they talk about their children. So they get puzzled. How can you have
Joanne Lockwood: children if you're if you're a man married to a man? Again, you have to
Joanne Lockwood: do all this explaining, and often it's easier
Joanne Lockwood: just to pass or cover or blend and not have those
Joanne Lockwood: conversations. Just just be a a passing straight white
Joanne Lockwood: person if you like without having to explain all these details about your
Joanne Lockwood: book. Many people don't have that luxury if they're not a passing
Joanne Lockwood: if they're black, they're openly gay and they're happy to be
Joanne Lockwood: openly gay, they wear that with pride. And
Joanne Lockwood: I can't not be trans. It's kind of obvious to most people.
Joanne Lockwood: I don't I don't make a secret of it, but I
Joanne Lockwood: can't pack myself away in a box for someone else's convenience.
Joanne Lockwood: And the amount of times, you know, like yourself, I've been involved with conversations
Joanne Lockwood: prior maybe to my transition that are sexist,
Joanne Lockwood: that are racist, that were whatever, all the things you described,
Joanne Lockwood: transphobic. And it was eating me up inside. It
Joanne Lockwood: really was a struggle to hold that in. And, of course, if I'd snapped
Joanne Lockwood: and said something, people look at me like, what's it to
Joanne Lockwood: you? Why does it matter? And it's and then you have to kind of
Joanne Lockwood: almost you just say because it does. It's not enough sometimes. You have to
Joanne Lockwood: almost like it matters because, and then you almost feel obliged
Joanne Lockwood: to sort of tell your story, which you don't really wanna
Joanne Lockwood: be put in that position.
Tony Winyard: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's,
Tony Winyard: I I struggled with it as a kid because I
Tony Winyard: didn't, my mother and my father's divorced or they
Tony Winyard: split when I was very young. So I didn't grow up with my father. I
Tony Winyard: grew up with the person who I call my dad is is a white guy.
Tony Winyard: He's, you know, he's really my stepdad. So I grew up in a very white
Tony Winyard: environment, but always aware that I wasn't
Tony Winyard: completely white, even though I looked completely white. And the school I
Tony Winyard: went to was probably about 50% black. It was a it was quite a
Tony Winyard: black area of London. But I always
Tony Winyard: I it was it was difficult because I didn't feel I'm African
Tony Winyard: black, so my father is African. Most of my school was West Indian black. And
Tony Winyard: in the seventies, when I was going to school,
Tony Winyard: it was very cool to be West Indian Black. It was not cool to be
Tony Winyard: African Black. African blacks were really kind of ridicule ridiculed
Tony Winyard: and, you know, a lot of fun made out. And so I would never
Tony Winyard: let anyone know that I was actually born in Africa and that my father
Tony Winyard: was African because I knew that I would be in for a whole load of,
Tony Winyard: you know, people making fun of me and so on. And so
Tony Winyard: I it was always and
Tony Winyard: I couldn't just come out and say, oh, I'm my dad's black because
Tony Winyard: I didn't look black. And so I kind of felt not
Tony Winyard: uncomfortable. It was just it was. Yeah, it was kind of strange for me going
Tony Winyard: up. I wasn't I was never sure. I just most people just assumed I
Tony Winyard: was white, and I never said anything different to most people.
Joanne Lockwood: I I was born in Singapore back in the mid sixties. My father
Joanne Lockwood: was a naval art officer. My mom,
Joanne Lockwood: I suppose a professional mother at the time as
Joanne Lockwood: women were in the sixties. So I was born in
Joanne Lockwood: Singapore in naval hospital in Singapore
Joanne Lockwood: to 2 white middle class English
Joanne Lockwood: heritage people. But when I got to a
Joanne Lockwood: certain age where I was applying for jobs, CVs, resumes,
Joanne Lockwood: passports, whatever. There's always a there's always a nationality and
Joanne Lockwood: a place of birth that came up. Now I always put
Joanne Lockwood: Singapore, and I always put in brackets afterwards British
Joanne Lockwood: Naval Hospital, close brackets, because I was
Joanne Lockwood: really, I don't know. I was just keen to say I
Joanne Lockwood: am English, really. It was almost like I was
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Worried that I would be perceived as someone who wasn't
Joanne Lockwood: British English by saying I was born in Singapore. And I I
Joanne Lockwood: look back on that now, and I would never explain that
Joanne Lockwood: again. I never put that. I never put that footnote anymore. I just
Joanne Lockwood: say Singapore. But there must have been some bias
Joanne Lockwood: in my own head, some prejudice in my own head about being
Joanne Lockwood: perceived as as not completely white.
Joanne Lockwood: And I still remember that. I I don't I'm not shameful about that feeling,
Joanne Lockwood: but I'm very conscious that I felt that way. I've challenged myself on
Joanne Lockwood: it since. Mhmm. Because I was conscious that other
Joanne Lockwood: people may be biased against me if I put the Singapore down. So
Joanne Lockwood: it's very interesting that you you say you kinda pass as
Joanne Lockwood: a as a white person, but you're still proud of your your
Joanne Lockwood: African heritage where you were born.
Tony Winyard: Yeah. And what you just said is so true. I spent Jo the certainly, the
Tony Winyard: first half of my life or certainly until my twenties
Tony Winyard: playing up or really living up to being British and English
Tony Winyard: and told very few people where I was
Tony Winyard: born or they, you know, they didn't know anything about my father.
Tony Winyard: And I probably really exaggerated my cockney accent
Tony Winyard: to to to fit in and and and so on. And I didn't want
Tony Winyard: anyone to feel you want to fit in. You want to be like everyone else.
Tony Winyard: And I it's only in the last, I think, 10, 15
Tony Winyard: years I've become much more comfortable with who I actually am and where I'm
Tony Winyard: from and my, you know, my family on my father's side
Tony Winyard: as well. Jo you keep in contact with them? Do you
Joanne Lockwood: see them? I never actually met my father
Tony Winyard: until I was in my mid twenties. And then I met here. And at the
Tony Winyard: time I was, well, I was working in Switzerland and I didn't meet
Tony Winyard: his family because he'd married again to so he's from
Tony Winyard: Sudan. I was born in Sudan, and he married a Sudanese woman
Tony Winyard: and moved to Tottenham in North London. I didn't know that when I was growing
Tony Winyard: up. And it was when I came back to live in England and I met
Tony Winyard: his 4 children, so my half brothers and
Tony Winyard: sisters. And I got quite a close relationship with
Tony Winyard: 2 the your 2 oldest girls, but I didn't have such a
Tony Winyard: close relationship with him. He was very deeply religious, and I'm not
Tony Winyard: religious at all. And I found it quite difficult to he would try 5 times
Tony Winyard: a day, and it just wasn't yeah. And and because we hadn't I
Tony Winyard: hadn't grown up with him. I didn't know anything about him as I was growing
Tony Winyard: up. It was always a difficult relationship, but it was much easier with
Tony Winyard: his with his children.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Especially, if you haven't had contact with Joanne estranged
Joanne Lockwood: father, it's a really difficult relationship to rebuild, isn't it? Whereas
Joanne Lockwood: maybe your siblings is is a far easier, maybe
Joanne Lockwood: relatable peer to peer type type level as now, I think.
Joanne Lockwood: I've I mean, I haven't had a great relationship with my family for many years.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm sorry. Carry on. Well, yeah. And so if right.
Tony Winyard: Yeah. There was a slight delay, so I didn't hear you carry on. But, yeah,
Tony Winyard: it was funny in some ways because they
Tony Winyard: were, both their mother and father were Sudanese. And so they
Tony Winyard: my my siblings look black, but they were born in
Tony Winyard: London, whereas I look white and I was born in Sudan. So it was
Tony Winyard: it was some strange sort of parallel as well as the
Tony Winyard: opposite, say, in some ways between us. Mhmm.
Joanne Lockwood: I've got some friends who fostered
Joanne Lockwood: to white families, which is quite apparently quite common in
Joanne Lockwood: the sixties and early part of seventies where black
Joanne Lockwood: children were taken from their black parents for various reasons, poverty
Joanne Lockwood: or other reasons, and and they were they were homed or fostered or adopted by
Joanne Lockwood: white families. And that that led them to a huge identity crisis.
Joanne Lockwood: Black raised by white people, understanding their culture.
Joanne Lockwood: And I mean, I think all of the
Joanne Lockwood: people I know that have told me this have felt very confused about their
Joanne Lockwood: identity and had a lot of conflict around that racism
Joanne Lockwood: and find trying to find out who they truly are. It must be
Joanne Lockwood: really kind of I don't know. I I I can't even think of how
Joanne Lockwood: that makes you feel.
Tony Winyard: Well and there's also and I don't know. I mean, obviously, I can't speak for
Tony Winyard: the situations you're talking about, but I know for myself, growing up
Tony Winyard: in London in in the seventies eighties, it was quite
Tony Winyard: especially from the police, it was quite a racist
Tony Winyard: atmosphere. And a lot of my friends were being picked up regularly
Tony Winyard: by the police on the the SAS laws at the time.
Tony Winyard: And and I was never arrested by the police. And I was
Tony Winyard: wearing the same clothes as these guys, and I was doing the same things and
Tony Winyard: in the same you know, but I was never ever just
Tony Winyard: stopped for for suss, whereas all my friends were
Tony Winyard: always, always being stopped for suss. And so they became I
Tony Winyard: almost, in some ways, kind of felt guilty. I thought, well, I am actually
Tony Winyard: half black. And if the if these police officers had known
Tony Winyard: now, I probably would have been stopped more often, but I was never literally
Tony Winyard: never stopped. And yet they were all my friends were always being stopped.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. That must be really,
Joanne Lockwood: really kind of I don't know. In one way, you feel lucky,
Joanne Lockwood: but in another way, you feel disappointed for your friends
Joanne Lockwood: because you could see that overt racism at play.
Tony Winyard: Yeah. There was a feeling of guilt in some sometimes because I was
Tony Winyard: I realized I was really, really lucky that I was not being subjected
Tony Winyard: to what my friends were being subjected to. And that was
Tony Winyard: just purely by the luck of not having a darker
Tony Winyard: complexion. I mean, my my best friend was also mixed race, and he was a
Tony Winyard: his father was black and his mum was white, but he looked very
Tony Winyard: black. You know, his his hair was more sort of Afro and so on,
Tony Winyard: whereas, you know, my hair is not. And and we were
Tony Winyard: subjected to such different experiences. And yet we were
Tony Winyard: basically the same in some ways. You know,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm I'm kinda lost for words because
Joanne Lockwood: that situation for me, I've got no reference point of that
Joanne Lockwood: that conflict of identity or that conflict of of history in my
Joanne Lockwood: life. So it's hear your story and hear your story of other people
Joanne Lockwood: I've I've spoken to. It yeah. It's
Joanne Lockwood: it really takes me into a different position of thinking, you know, about how that
Joanne Lockwood: can happen and how it does uncover racism, uncovers
Joanne Lockwood: the social constructs and the the
Joanne Lockwood: systemic problems we have in society in some cases with the with the police, with
Joanne Lockwood: the stop and search, with discrimination employment,
Joanne Lockwood: in in benefits, aggravated by things like Grenfell,
Joanne Lockwood: Windrush, and now, what appears to
Joanne Lockwood: be a racial bias to death, to dying as a result of
Joanne Lockwood: COVID often due to how people live,
Joanne Lockwood: the societies, the communities they grow up with, multiple generations
Joanne Lockwood: and families living in the same property. There's a whole lot
Joanne Lockwood: of sort of structural reasons why black, brown,
Joanne Lockwood: or non white people are disproportionately affected by COVID, and it's not
Joanne Lockwood: about vitamin d and it's not about the color of skin. It's about the
Joanne Lockwood: societal constructs that we've created around those communities.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's, as a white person,
Joanne Lockwood: I'm really shielded from that. And
Joanne Lockwood: I'm spending a lot of time educating myself
Joanne Lockwood: on on making sure I understand what's going on in society. And yeah, it
Joanne Lockwood: it it is. And, for you to be in that kind of halfway
Joanne Lockwood: house where you you pass
Joanne Lockwood: as white, but have that black heritage, it's yeah. It must be
Joanne Lockwood: quite a a conflict. But I'm not saying a bad conflict,
Joanne Lockwood: but a something that you have to work with in your
Joanne Lockwood: life.
Tony Winyard: Yeah. And I. Yeah, it was.
Tony Winyard: I guess it was more I just felt because my friends were.
Tony Winyard: Suffering quite badly and, you know, being beaten up and stuff and sometimes.
Tony Winyard: And so I just I was very aware of how how lucky I
Tony Winyard: was. But but but there was
Tony Winyard: an element of guilt about that.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, one of the when I when I do my training, I do my
Joanne Lockwood: talking. I talk about how a lot of biases
Joanne Lockwood: come from media. And I noticed in part of your
Joanne Lockwood: bio, you say you don't own a television and you haven't read a
Joanne Lockwood: newspaper in decades. So a
Joanne Lockwood: lot of the biases that are prevalent in today's society are really fed by the
Joanne Lockwood: media. Do you feel shielded from them or do you feel cut off or
Joanne Lockwood: how how do you keep in touch with society?
Tony Winyard: I don't feel the need to. I feel and
Tony Winyard: I I I have very little stress in my life, and I believe that's one
Tony Winyard: of the reasons is because I don't feel that I have to
Tony Winyard: keep in touch with everything that's going on and be
Tony Winyard: have to know what's happened yesterday in
Tony Winyard: Westminster or what the Daily Mail have made up or or
Tony Winyard: whatever the case may be.
Tony Winyard: I I mean, I I'm I'm very aware of what's going on if
Tony Winyard: well, just from being on social media, from
Tony Winyard: using things like Facebook and and whatever platforms.
Tony Winyard: If there I see a lot of people talking about a particular story,
Tony Winyard: depending on the context and the sort of things they're saying, then I'm
Tony Winyard: it may lead me to go and discover more about what that story is. So
Tony Winyard: I may look at certain websites to find out more about that story. But
Tony Winyard: half the time, I can see from the different,
Tony Winyard: comments that are being made by lots of different people that I know
Tony Winyard: who are white, black, Asian and whatever. Sometimes I feel, well, actually,
Tony Winyard: I don't want to know anything about that story because it's clearly I can see
Tony Winyard: it's not actually helping people by the views that they're expressing. So
Tony Winyard: I'm quite content not knowing anything about that story.
Joanne Lockwood: Do self select and research as as you feel you want to
Joanne Lockwood: and is necessary at the time? Oh, good. Yeah. I think we are sucked
Joanne Lockwood: into this. I need to be fed with information
Joanne Lockwood: on our phones, on the news, on our media. We kinda get addicted to it.
Joanne Lockwood: It must be, I'd say, quite cathartic. And did you say very
Joanne Lockwood: relaxing not to have this this pressure
Joanne Lockwood: of of media intrusion into your life at the time?
Tony Winyard: And and the reason it came about was because when I was living
Tony Winyard: abroad for a long time and I came back to England for a friend's
Tony Winyard: wedding in 96. So I'd been away about 10
Tony Winyard: years at that point. And I had been reading,
Tony Winyard: I've been getting a weekly paper called the International Express, which was
Tony Winyard: like a the last 7 days main stories from the
Tony Winyard: Daily Express. And I'd been receiving this for a few
Tony Winyard: years, and that was the only touch point I had with Ringling
Tony Winyard: because this was, you know, pre Internet and so on. And I
Tony Winyard: didn't realize, but I was believing all these sensational stories in
Tony Winyard: you know, that they have in The Daily Express on a regular basis. And when
Tony Winyard: I came back to England, I was there's a couple of times
Tony Winyard: about I was with different groups of friends, and we will be we will be
Tony Winyard: going to a different places. And I was saying, oh, we we surely we don't
Tony Winyard: want to go there. It's really dangerous there. And my friends were sort of looking
Tony Winyard: at me and what are you talking about? And this happened on a few different
Tony Winyard: occasions. And I realized as I was on a plane going back to
Tony Winyard: Indonesia, it occurred to me that
Tony Winyard: my whole, thoughts about
Tony Winyard: England had been completely shaped about how England
Tony Winyard: was by by the Daily Express over the previous few years
Tony Winyard: because I hadn't actually seen England. I'd only been all I knew about
Tony Winyard: England now was what I was reading in the Daily Express. And that was why
Tony Winyard: I was being so fearful about going to places like Ealing and and
Tony Winyard: Islington and other places, which I would never have had
Tony Winyard: second thought about going to when I was growing up. But now I was suddenly
Tony Winyard: fearful about going to these places because I'd been kind of
Tony Winyard: conditioned in that way by reading the express every day.
Tony Winyard: And on the on the plane going back, I thought, well, I'm not buying that
Tony Winyard: paper anymore. And that slowly turned into I just have never
Tony Winyard: bought a newspaper since.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm honest. I don't think the only time I've bought a newspaper in the last
Joanne Lockwood: 10 years is when I was in it. I
Joanne Lockwood: wanted to check the article I wrote or the story about me. But no.
Joanne Lockwood: I I don't I don't buy newspapers, but I I do click on links on
Joanne Lockwood: social media, and I probably consume a bit online,
Joanne Lockwood: BBC news, that kind of stuff. But, yeah, no, I don't think I bought a
Joanne Lockwood: newspaper or read a newspaper for many,
Joanne Lockwood: many years either. So but you're so right about how
Joanne Lockwood: we form these biases and prejudices and based on
Joanne Lockwood: somebody else's commentary. And I've never
Joanne Lockwood: been to China myself, but I'm hearing all this about the
Joanne Lockwood: Uighur population and the way that the Chinese culture. I've
Joanne Lockwood: never been to some most of Africa and my whole life is
Joanne Lockwood: view of Africa is clouded by what I see on the television.
Joanne Lockwood: I've never been to any parts of the Middle East. So how I perceive the
Joanne Lockwood: Middle East, the people from that territory and region, again, all
Joanne Lockwood: clouded by the media. And I'm always very conscious about my biases
Joanne Lockwood: about because we often see lots of
Joanne Lockwood: stories where there's a war or conflict or poverty
Joanne Lockwood: or or something we disagree with going on in that region. That's all we
Joanne Lockwood: ever hear, and we don't really get to to experience the
Joanne Lockwood: people. And I was watching the other day, I can't remember which country it
Joanne Lockwood: was, they just had a major earthquake or it's had a major disaster.
Joanne Lockwood: And they were interviewing these people, but the people they
Joanne Lockwood: were interviewing were covered in mud and rubble because they just
Joanne Lockwood: had their they'd had their lives blown away by what disaster had
Joanne Lockwood: happened. I thought it's already made them
Joanne Lockwood: seem more primitive, less
Joanne Lockwood: capable, less intelligent. My biases were building up
Joanne Lockwood: big time. I thought, oh, these people have jobs, they have
Joanne Lockwood: families, they have a bank account, they have money, they drive a car,
Joanne Lockwood: They they have a position in society that is that delivers a
Joanne Lockwood: service to other people. But all we're being shown is this
Joanne Lockwood: poor, broken family, not
Joanne Lockwood: who they I wanna know who they were all about Jo I could film a
Joanne Lockwood: true impression of of of the context. And that's
Joanne Lockwood: all all we see. We we only see the disaster view of these people,
Joanne Lockwood: which dehumanizes in a way and just reduces them to a a hard
Joanne Lockwood: luck story. Whereas yeah. And there's
Tony Winyard: also the agenda that the the channels have. Jo, I mean, I can there's
Tony Winyard: one particular story I have where, again, while I was in
Tony Winyard: Indonesia, in Jakarta, and there was a riot happening in
Tony Winyard: North Jakarta, in in Kota, a place in Chinatown. And I was at
Tony Winyard: the time living in South Jakarta. And Jakarta is a huge place. It's not as
Tony Winyard: big as London. It's not far off. And so if you can imagine, if you're
Tony Winyard: in, say, somewhere like Wandsworth and there's a riot
Tony Winyard: happening in Sauternum, well, you're not affected at all because it's so far away.
Tony Winyard: Well, so we I was share I was at a friend's house at the
Tony Winyard: time, another English guy. And we happened to have just walked
Tony Winyard: down the road to the local pizza place, and we bought a pizza. And we're
Tony Winyard: back in his house, and we're eating the pizza. And we're watching CNN,
Tony Winyard: who were reporting on this riot in Jakarta.
Tony Winyard: And the reporter said all the expats are
Tony Winyard: barricaded in their houses because the thing things are so bad. And we've looked
Tony Winyard: at each other and, well, we've just walked down the road to get a pizza.
Tony Winyard: What are you talking about? The expats are barricaded. But everyone who was outside
Tony Winyard: of Indonesia and couldn't see what the situation was would obviously
Tony Winyard: believe what this reporter was selling them. And that
Tony Winyard: again, that and that wasn't long after that story with the whole newspaper
Tony Winyard: thing as well. And I I just started realizing these newspapers and media
Tony Winyard: have they've got this agenda which they want to make
Tony Winyard: people believe. And if you're not a there to see that actually that's not
Tony Winyard: the situation, then you're going to believe that.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I think if you like, from a DNI of
Joanne Lockwood: this podcast, you know, into business, and that's a real perspective. So we wanna maybe
Joanne Lockwood: leave people with a question what you're being fed by
Joanne Lockwood: the media, question their motives, and
Joanne Lockwood: seek out your own truth. A bit like you're saying, you do you do the
Joanne Lockwood: selective research, targeted research to get uncover the real
Joanne Lockwood: story. I think that's really, really important. And as a as a takeaway,
Joanne Lockwood: that could be that's the nugget I'd like to leave people with here is about
Joanne Lockwood: understanding your biases, understanding what you've been fed, understanding the
Joanne Lockwood: perspectives you have, and how to challenge those and be
Joanne Lockwood: really active about learning about some of about people,
Joanne Lockwood: about new situations, cultural, emotional intelligence.
Joanne Lockwood: That's why I always encourage people to do it. Well, Tony, we've been speaking for
Joanne Lockwood: just over an hour. I'm sure we could both carry on for
Joanne Lockwood: another couple of hours, Esther, and I look forward to meeting out with you in
Joanne Lockwood: the real world one day. So thanks, Tony. How do
Joanne Lockwood: our listeners get in touch with you to to speak about your website, what you're
Joanne Lockwood: doing?
Tony Winyard: So I I touched upon it. Yeah. I dive with the whole habit thing. And
Tony Winyard: and as I said, the way that the habits came about is because I've been
Tony Winyard: immersing myself in health for quite a few years now.
Tony Winyard: And I help people to improve their sleep, their
Tony Winyard: nutrition, their breathing, their movement, and their mindset. And
Tony Winyard: I I call my business habits and health. And so there's
Tony Winyard: the ways people can get more information about me. My website is
Tony Winyard: tonywinyard.com. Winyard is W-I-N-Y-A-R-D. I've
Tony Winyard: got a quiz. You can find out whether you're in control of your habits or
Tony Winyard: your habits are in control of you. Just switch is tony bueno.com/
Tony Winyard: habits. I've got a free 5 day program, which I kinda
Tony Winyard: coach people through improving their habits and how to create a
Tony Winyard: habit from whatever behavior it is you want. Maybe it's to
Tony Winyard: to do press ups on a regular basis or to floss your teeth or whatever
Tony Winyard: it might be. I've got this free 5 day program, is just tonywinyard.com/
Tony Winyard: habits. I saw the quiz. I
Tony Winyard: I think I get no. The the quiz is habits hyphen
Tony Winyard: health dot com. I think I gave the wrong URL before. I forget what it
Tony Winyard: was I said. But yeah. And I I've got I do I coach people in
Tony Winyard: this, and I also have some group online programs in this where it's
Tony Winyard: usually 8 to 10 people. And there's a there's that kind
Tony Winyard: of hive mind where by people telling their stories about how
Tony Winyard: they're having problems maybe with their sleep or or respiratory issues or
Tony Winyard: whatever the case may be. And when I'm able to help that one person,
Tony Winyard: I'm also helping other people in the room or or the story that one other
Tony Winyard: person is telling is talking about is helpful to the other people in the
Tony Winyard: room as well. And I know I have a podcast which we touched
Tony Winyard: upon. Yeah. I've got podcast called Habits and Health.
Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. I'm gonna go check my habits and see see what I've got.
Joanne Lockwood: And I'm I'm definitely gonna build up my my cycling habit. That's that's one thing
Joanne Lockwood: I've taken away from talking to that. I need to break into that
Joanne Lockwood: habit, make a positive habit out of cycling, not, ignoring the bike.
Joanne Lockwood: Although I can see the bike every time I look out the kitchen window, it's
Joanne Lockwood: staring at me saying, ride me. Ride me. So I I haven't hidden it. So
Joanne Lockwood: it's in my thoughts. So amazing. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your
Joanne Lockwood: contribution. Been really good to chat to you. And a huge thanks,
Joanne Lockwood: to you, my listener. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you for listening. Thank
Joanne Lockwood: you for getting to the end. If you want to hear more, please do
Joanne Lockwood: subscribe to keep updates on future episodes of the Inclusion
Joanne Lockwood: Bites podcast at B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: sure you have a few. Tell your colleagues. Probably got some of those as well.
Joanne Lockwood: I've got a number of other exciting guests lined up that I was sure you'll
Joanne Lockwood: be inspired by over the next few weeks months. So
Joanne Lockwood: please, please, please, if you'd like to also, if you'd like to be a
Joanne Lockwood: guest, get in contact with me. I'd love to have you on the show.
Joanne Lockwood: And as always, I'd like feedback, suggestions for future shows on how I
Joanne Lockwood: can improve to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: And finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been a pleasure to
Joanne Lockwood: host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time.
Joanne Lockwood: Bye.