WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.320 --> 00:00:06.000 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the 2 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:09.615 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a 3 00:00:09.615 --> 00:00:13.455 number of amazing people, have simply had a conversation about the subject 4 00:00:13.455 --> 00:00:17.190 of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better 5 00:00:17.190 --> 00:00:20.630 place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the 6 00:00:20.630 --> 00:00:24.215 future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@changehappen.co.uk. 7 00:00:26.915 --> 00:00:30.515 That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You can 8 00:00:30.515 --> 00:00:34.239 catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify and 9 00:00:34.239 --> 00:00:38.079 the usual places. So plug in the headphones, grab 10 00:00:38.079 --> 00:00:41.754 a decaf and let's get going. Today 11 00:00:42.135 --> 00:00:45.914 is episode 39 with the title, Viewing 12 00:00:45.975 --> 00:00:49.770 Gender Through A Fresh Perspective. And I have the 13 00:00:49.770 --> 00:00:52.829 absolute honor and privilege to be joined by Antoinette Dale Henderson. 14 00:00:53.930 --> 00:00:57.605 Antoinette describes herself as a TEDx speaker, a two time 15 00:00:57.605 --> 00:01:01.445 author and founder of the Gravitas program. When 16 00:01:01.445 --> 00:01:04.905 I asked Antoinette to describe her superpower, she said, 17 00:01:05.450 --> 00:01:09.230 she always chooses to see the best in people, and her superpower 18 00:01:09.610 --> 00:01:13.455 is enabling others to see that in themselves. Hello, Antoinette. 19 00:01:13.675 --> 00:01:17.115 Welcome to the show. Hello, Joanne. It's amazing to be 20 00:01:17.115 --> 00:01:20.955 here. I've been looking forward to this. We've known each other 21 00:01:20.955 --> 00:01:24.620 a couple of years and through Lockwood, we've not had the chance to catch up. 22 00:01:24.620 --> 00:01:27.900 So this is gonna be really amazing. So thank you for coming on. I'm looking 23 00:01:27.900 --> 00:01:31.635 forward to it. So I call this episode Viewing Gender Through a Fresh 24 00:01:31.635 --> 00:01:35.235 Perspective. What does that mean to you? Well, it's 25 00:01:35.235 --> 00:01:39.015 interesting because I have, over the past 26 00:01:39.470 --> 00:01:43.230 3 years or so, found myself working more and more 27 00:01:43.230 --> 00:01:46.910 in the space of, helping lead women in 28 00:01:46.910 --> 00:01:50.595 leadership really further their careers. And and that really 29 00:01:50.595 --> 00:01:54.435 came as a result of my work in the corporate world. So 30 00:01:54.435 --> 00:01:57.895 I've worked with men and women, anybody. And, 31 00:01:58.360 --> 00:02:01.320 you know, what what I noticed was that it was often women who are coming 32 00:02:01.320 --> 00:02:04.760 to me and saying, I'm experiencing confidence issues. I'm in 33 00:02:05.080 --> 00:02:08.725 experiencing, you know, that second pandemic of 21st 34 00:02:08.785 --> 00:02:12.405 century. I'm experiencing imposter syndrome or 35 00:02:12.625 --> 00:02:16.300 I'm really holding myself back and I I need your help. And 36 00:02:16.300 --> 00:02:20.140 so I was inspired, probably about 3 years ago 37 00:02:20.140 --> 00:02:23.844 to to start looking at how I could put together some 38 00:02:23.844 --> 00:02:27.685 programs and and really some solutions to help further women in 39 00:02:27.685 --> 00:02:31.530 business. And that coincided with the whole me too movement where, 40 00:02:32.550 --> 00:02:36.310 women started to call out really inappropriate behavior and and 41 00:02:36.310 --> 00:02:39.915 stand up for themselves and and and say enough is enough. 42 00:02:40.455 --> 00:02:44.295 And then at the same time, looking at, the gender pay gap 43 00:02:44.295 --> 00:02:47.940 that that was also starting to happen about 2 years ago. 44 00:02:47.940 --> 00:02:51.700 And so that inspired me to write my second 45 00:02:51.700 --> 00:02:55.000 book which is, Power Up, The Smart Women's Guide 46 00:02:55.235 --> 00:02:58.995 to Unleashing Their Perspective. And and so that's 47 00:02:58.995 --> 00:03:02.595 gone really, really well. And and the TEDx came out of that book 48 00:03:02.595 --> 00:03:06.150 and, you know, there's been a big focus for me. Now as I say, I 49 00:03:06.150 --> 00:03:09.989 I work with everyone, particularly in the leadership space, but 50 00:03:09.989 --> 00:03:13.830 I did find myself working more and more with women and and 51 00:03:13.830 --> 00:03:17.034 really looking at that theme of gender 52 00:03:17.334 --> 00:03:21.015 equality. And my take on on 53 00:03:21.015 --> 00:03:24.550 power is that I think traditionally that there's different 54 00:03:24.550 --> 00:03:28.330 perspectives on what power is. So you you've got the most traditionally 55 00:03:28.950 --> 00:03:32.695 masculine powers. She's very strong and directive and 56 00:03:32.695 --> 00:03:36.455 powerful. And then you've got the more female power which is 57 00:03:36.455 --> 00:03:40.290 traditionally more about emotion intelligence and influence. And 58 00:03:40.290 --> 00:03:44.049 you can even hear through my voice when I describe each of those two ends 59 00:03:44.049 --> 00:03:47.269 of the spectrum. You know, that there's a much more of a softness 60 00:03:47.965 --> 00:03:51.745 associated with the with the perception around, female 61 00:03:51.885 --> 00:03:55.725 power. And and I'd I'd thought, well, why on earth should it be like that? 62 00:03:55.725 --> 00:03:59.570 Why shouldn't everyone be able to access that full range? Why 63 00:03:59.570 --> 00:04:03.170 couldn't why shouldn't everyone learn from everyone else and be able to tap into their 64 00:04:03.170 --> 00:04:05.990 full ranges of power? And so, 65 00:04:06.605 --> 00:04:09.965 yeah, a lot of the perspective was around why should it be 66 00:04:09.965 --> 00:04:13.405 polarizing? Why should it be binary? Why should it be one thing or 67 00:04:13.405 --> 00:04:17.029 another? And so I was already started to look at at at what 68 00:04:17.029 --> 00:04:20.790 gender is and what it means. But still at the same time, you know, I 69 00:04:20.790 --> 00:04:24.495 was talking about men and women and and looking at it through fresh eyes, this 70 00:04:24.495 --> 00:04:28.175 has been a very, very recent thing for me. Because clearly, I mean, we we 71 00:04:28.175 --> 00:04:31.534 met about 3 years ago, didn't we? And I I saw you speak and you 72 00:04:31.534 --> 00:04:35.060 moved me to tears actually the first time I saw you speak, Joanne. 73 00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:39.520 And listening to your perspective and your 74 00:04:39.520 --> 00:04:43.134 story and the people that you work with and represent and and the 75 00:04:43.134 --> 00:04:46.675 whole perspective around trans and non binary and what that means 76 00:04:47.775 --> 00:04:51.215 already started to just open up my eyes. And then more 77 00:04:51.215 --> 00:04:54.710 recently, I've got 2 daughters. Right? 14, 78 00:04:54.850 --> 00:04:58.610 17. And my youngest, the 14 year old, more recently 79 00:04:58.610 --> 00:05:02.070 has started to they both go well, 80 00:05:02.675 --> 00:05:06.275 she goes to a girl school. The other one has moved on. She now 81 00:05:06.275 --> 00:05:09.555 goes to what originally was a boys school and now is mixed because she's doing 82 00:05:09.555 --> 00:05:12.830 a doubles. But the point is is that what what she was doing 83 00:05:13.370 --> 00:05:17.130 was, starting to question why is it that teachers should 84 00:05:17.130 --> 00:05:20.875 refer to them all as girls And why is it that 85 00:05:20.875 --> 00:05:24.235 that it should be so simple as the 2 pronouns? And 86 00:05:24.235 --> 00:05:27.915 and how about, you know, opening up people's eyes and the teachers and 87 00:05:27.915 --> 00:05:28.310 the 88 00:05:36.310 --> 00:05:39.825 the whoever they are, and however they are. And so that that's 89 00:05:39.825 --> 00:05:43.525 really the fresh perspective on gender 90 00:05:43.585 --> 00:05:47.270 that that really my eyes are being opened up to now through my 91 00:05:47.270 --> 00:05:49.770 own children and through where I think the world is going. 92 00:05:51.085 --> 00:05:54.605 That's fascinating to hear because we as parents often 93 00:05:54.605 --> 00:05:58.419 feel we're the ones to do the educating. But what 94 00:05:58.419 --> 00:06:02.020 we're learning now is that we are learning so much more from our children 95 00:06:02.020 --> 00:06:05.735 about their world and about their 96 00:06:05.735 --> 00:06:09.355 future. And we're now more responsive. And I think maybe 97 00:06:09.735 --> 00:06:12.855 when we Jo back to our childhood, we didn't believe as children, we had that 98 00:06:12.855 --> 00:06:16.550 empowerment that we would tend to do as we're told if we 99 00:06:16.550 --> 00:06:20.150 don't speak, if they're not spoken to, it's kind of attitude. But now we're now 100 00:06:20.150 --> 00:06:23.655 empowering our children in different ways to speak up. That's 101 00:06:23.655 --> 00:06:27.115 right. And, and I think that's a beautiful thing. 102 00:06:27.335 --> 00:06:31.014 And and I'm so grateful. I trained to be a coach when 103 00:06:31.014 --> 00:06:34.860 my youngest was about 2. And I'm so grateful that I did 104 00:06:34.860 --> 00:06:38.220 that because when I did that, I learned to really 105 00:06:38.220 --> 00:06:41.745 listen and learn to really just have that curiosity 106 00:06:42.205 --> 00:06:45.965 around the fact that everyone is different and everyone deserves the right 107 00:06:45.965 --> 00:06:48.925 to have their own opinions and to be able to express it, which kind of 108 00:06:48.925 --> 00:06:52.090 inspires a lot of what I do in my professional world. 109 00:06:52.629 --> 00:06:56.150 And so I learn and I trained to do that. 110 00:06:56.150 --> 00:06:59.785 And and I really hope that that kind of finds its 111 00:06:59.785 --> 00:07:03.145 way into the way that I I am a parent and and how 112 00:07:03.145 --> 00:07:06.950 I, yeah, how I do empower my young the young people 113 00:07:06.950 --> 00:07:10.330 around me. It's it's taken 114 00:07:11.110 --> 00:07:14.855 several centuries of programming by 115 00:07:14.855 --> 00:07:17.595 the state, by the media, by Hollywood 116 00:07:18.695 --> 00:07:22.215 to just reinforce this gender binary. The the 117 00:07:22.215 --> 00:07:25.340 brave strong man and the soft fragrant 118 00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:29.880 woman, if you like. And that's been reinforced. You look at some of 119 00:07:29.880 --> 00:07:33.525 the the Disney cartoons of yesteryear, the Snow White, the 120 00:07:33.525 --> 00:07:36.985 Prince Charming, the the helpless woman, the saved 121 00:07:37.365 --> 00:07:40.825 saved by the man, slay the dragon stuff. We've really 122 00:07:41.130 --> 00:07:44.650 had that programmed into us for for decades decades 123 00:07:44.650 --> 00:07:48.010 decades. And it's really hard to overcome those stereotypes now, isn't 124 00:07:48.010 --> 00:07:51.365 it? It really is. But I think it it is interesting 125 00:07:51.585 --> 00:07:55.105 that corporates are waking up to the 126 00:07:55.105 --> 00:07:58.760 potential of not thinking that way. I think it's Pixar. I think they've 127 00:07:58.760 --> 00:08:02.460 got a new movie that they've come out where they've got a a non binary, 128 00:08:03.240 --> 00:08:07.065 person who's being featured and and and then you 129 00:08:07.065 --> 00:08:10.825 look at some of the toy manufacturers and then they're they're less like 130 00:08:10.825 --> 00:08:14.646 that. You know, you you'll have you'll have a mix up. You 131 00:08:14.646 --> 00:08:18.444 might just have the barbies with, like, the big boobs and the tiny little waist 132 00:08:18.444 --> 00:08:22.242 and the kind of pink outfit and all of that, but they are mixing up 133 00:08:22.242 --> 00:08:25.995 a lot more now. And so I think that it's it's all accelerating. 134 00:08:26.135 --> 00:08:29.735 So I'm I'm fascinated to to be able to kind of project into the 135 00:08:29.735 --> 00:08:33.509 future to see where we're all going. But I think 136 00:08:33.509 --> 00:08:37.269 if I if I look back to when I was, a child 137 00:08:37.269 --> 00:08:40.985 and going through being being a teenager and stuff like that, I mean, being gay 138 00:08:40.985 --> 00:08:44.504 was illegal. Right? And, you know, and it and 139 00:08:44.504 --> 00:08:48.185 hidden away. My my uncle was gay and he died of AIDS. 140 00:08:48.185 --> 00:08:51.990 And at that time, my parents could not tell anybody. 141 00:08:52.450 --> 00:08:55.430 You know, it was secret. It was taboo and it was 142 00:08:55.890 --> 00:08:59.715 so and and now, you know, that that's at least 143 00:08:59.715 --> 00:09:03.395 in my my view and and the world that I operate in, that that just 144 00:09:03.395 --> 00:09:07.095 isn't even a thing anymore. So I think everything is changing. 145 00:09:07.899 --> 00:09:11.420 And I think if if we want to really live in this world, we we 146 00:09:11.420 --> 00:09:14.240 all need to kinda go into it with an open mind. 147 00:09:15.500 --> 00:09:19.155 Yeah. I mean, do you think the part of work is 148 00:09:19.155 --> 00:09:22.995 is really evolving and changing? I mean, I read Mary Porter's 149 00:09:22.995 --> 00:09:26.195 book, you know, Work Like a Woman. Yeah. I've got it. Yeah. There seems to 150 00:09:26.195 --> 00:09:29.620 be that perception that in order to succeed as a 151 00:09:29.620 --> 00:09:33.320 woman, you have to almost adopt male's traits, 152 00:09:34.020 --> 00:09:37.705 the loudness, the confidence. As you said, the 153 00:09:37.705 --> 00:09:41.245 feminine powerhouse for EQ and collaboration 154 00:09:41.705 --> 00:09:45.160 differences skills. Are we losing that sometimes 155 00:09:45.380 --> 00:09:48.920 when we're trying to create a violence where women feel they have to succeed 156 00:09:49.380 --> 00:09:53.045 as a man with male traits Or are we are we able to 157 00:09:53.045 --> 00:09:56.485 push back? I think that has traditionally been the 158 00:09:56.485 --> 00:10:00.165 case. And and I know that there are people out there who will will 159 00:10:00.165 --> 00:10:03.820 train women to, speak with a deeper voice or 160 00:10:03.820 --> 00:10:07.279 to look at bringing in more sort of masculine clothing 161 00:10:07.420 --> 00:10:11.195 and but I actually think that's, I think that I hope that that's 162 00:10:11.195 --> 00:10:14.875 in the past now. And so I think the 163 00:10:14.875 --> 00:10:18.630 more enlightened corporates that are much more open minded 164 00:10:18.630 --> 00:10:22.470 when it comes to that kind of thing now. You know, I work with 165 00:10:22.470 --> 00:10:26.115 with men and women. And what I will say is that when it comes 166 00:10:26.115 --> 00:10:29.635 to gravitas, you know, my definition of that is, you know, 167 00:10:29.635 --> 00:10:33.199 commanding, respect, getting taken seriously, standing out 168 00:10:33.199 --> 00:10:36.879 from the crowd, then you you have to think 169 00:10:36.879 --> 00:10:40.420 about your voice and you have to think about the messages that you're communicating. 170 00:10:41.235 --> 00:10:44.375 And so and and I look at the difference between how approachability 171 00:10:44.835 --> 00:10:48.195 comes across and, you know, how how that comes across to your voice and you 172 00:10:48.195 --> 00:10:51.550 can already hear me as I'm saying it, you know, my voice goes lighter. 173 00:10:52.330 --> 00:10:55.290 It might it might go up at the end of the sentence because it's it's 174 00:10:55.290 --> 00:10:59.005 got that lightness. But if people want to have that credibility and that 175 00:10:59.005 --> 00:11:02.685 gravitas, then it will naturally your voice will naturally go 176 00:11:02.685 --> 00:11:06.450 down. And, you know, I I do share that with 177 00:11:06.450 --> 00:11:10.050 everybody in all my classes because it's it it it 178 00:11:10.050 --> 00:11:13.675 does make an impact. But that's not about becoming more 179 00:11:13.675 --> 00:11:16.735 man. It's it's just about playing with 180 00:11:17.275 --> 00:11:21.080 depth and gravity and seriousness and 181 00:11:21.080 --> 00:11:24.840 authority, and and that does come with with with 182 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:28.575 having a more powerful voice. I've heard that before from 183 00:11:28.575 --> 00:11:32.095 someone. They talked about uptalk, which is where you 184 00:11:32.095 --> 00:11:35.600 speak, you know, higher at the end of the sentence. And that almost 185 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:39.440 implies a lack of confidence while you're asking a question. Mhmm. You 186 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:43.125 tend to finish a question with an up. And so having the power 187 00:11:43.125 --> 00:11:46.885 and closure is always down talk, isn't it? You you you land 188 00:11:46.885 --> 00:11:50.730 that Exactly. You to. Exactly. It's interesting. Earlier this 189 00:11:50.730 --> 00:11:54.570 week, I was I was running a session and I had 3 Aussies 190 00:11:54.570 --> 00:11:58.245 on the program. And so I was describing 191 00:11:58.305 --> 00:12:01.905 this. It's like, you know, the uptake. It does sound like every statement becomes a 192 00:12:01.905 --> 00:12:05.370 question because it it you're you're asking But you might not be 193 00:12:05.370 --> 00:12:08.650 asking. And so actually, you know, if you wanna make a point and that actually, 194 00:12:08.650 --> 00:12:11.630 you know, you you're describing the Aussie accent here. 195 00:12:12.385 --> 00:12:15.765 Whether it's Aussie or whether it's from LA or whether it's any teenager, 196 00:12:16.545 --> 00:12:20.200 you know, the uptick is yeah, I mean, you you 197 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:23.880 don't want people to become inauthentic or sound like robots, but it's 198 00:12:23.880 --> 00:12:27.585 just knowing if you really wanna land a point. Then if your voice goes 199 00:12:27.585 --> 00:12:30.165 down at the end of the point, then it will land. 200 00:12:31.505 --> 00:12:34.945 Yes. Completely because it's a full stop, isn't it? It really is a 201 00:12:34.945 --> 00:12:38.690 close. And if you want to get that point, yeah, it's a 202 00:12:38.690 --> 00:12:42.530 real divide. I made a conscious decision when I 203 00:12:42.530 --> 00:12:46.255 gender transitioned 4, 5 years ago. I toyed with 204 00:12:46.255 --> 00:12:49.394 my voice, the confidence I had 205 00:12:50.334 --> 00:12:53.935 and whether I wanted to change my voice to sound more feminine because it was 206 00:12:53.935 --> 00:12:57.690 voice coaching. And I decided that it was my 207 00:12:57.690 --> 00:13:01.130 voice, I didn't want to change who I was that 208 00:13:01.130 --> 00:13:04.535 much for everybody else, I changed my appearance, my 209 00:13:04.535 --> 00:13:07.595 identity, everything else. But the thought of change in my voice, 210 00:13:08.455 --> 00:13:12.055 it would just overburden my thought process. I'd always have to be 211 00:13:12.055 --> 00:13:14.940 conscious of it, I was actually thinking about how I was speaking. 212 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:19.640 And I decided that I was gonna keep my voice and in some ways, I 213 00:13:19.640 --> 00:13:23.255 guess it's an advantage because I still have that that deep 214 00:13:23.255 --> 00:13:26.774 gravitas about it, but I'm not I don't uptick at the end 215 00:13:26.774 --> 00:13:30.560 generally unless I'm asking a question. And also, 216 00:13:30.780 --> 00:13:34.300 it does create a little bit of shock and awe when I'm on 217 00:13:34.542 --> 00:13:37.920 Joanne, and I stand there and hold that pause at the beginning 218 00:13:38.165 --> 00:13:41.605 before I speak. And I've had a number of people Jo who've literally sat back 219 00:13:41.605 --> 00:13:45.205 in their chair, go, wow, where did that voice come from? Wasn't 220 00:13:45.205 --> 00:13:48.820 expecting that to be so it's a great attention grabber. So I've 221 00:13:48.820 --> 00:13:52.180 learned to use it to my advantage and put up with the, I feel like, 222 00:13:52.180 --> 00:13:55.834 the misgendering or the confusion it causes negatively, if you 223 00:13:55.834 --> 00:13:59.435 like, because our voice and the way we present is very, very 224 00:13:59.435 --> 00:14:02.815 powerful, isn't it? It is. Yeah. 225 00:14:02.875 --> 00:14:06.510 And, yeah, it's interesting. I I've I've 226 00:14:06.890 --> 00:14:10.110 I've I've thought about my voice as well. And and 227 00:14:10.490 --> 00:14:14.145 and and if you think of gravitas, you know, sometimes people's 228 00:14:14.145 --> 00:14:17.585 perception of gravitas is it's a statesmanlike. It's a 229 00:14:17.585 --> 00:14:21.210 statesmanlike quality. That's, you know, how it was originally 230 00:14:21.670 --> 00:14:25.130 defined by back in Roman times. And so 231 00:14:25.510 --> 00:14:29.095 the perception that the traditional could be is that if you've 232 00:14:29.095 --> 00:14:32.535 got gravitas, then you you are a man and, you know, 233 00:14:32.535 --> 00:14:36.350 statesmanlike qualities emerge like fine wine over the years, and you've 234 00:14:36.350 --> 00:14:39.410 got the silver hair and all of that. Clearly, 235 00:14:40.110 --> 00:14:43.630 I'm I'm never gonna be any of those things. You know, as a a 236 00:14:43.630 --> 00:14:47.135 fairly petite female, blonde female, you 237 00:14:47.135 --> 00:14:49.795 know. So but my take on it is that, 238 00:14:50.895 --> 00:14:54.070 yeah, that's great. And so one of the first edition of the book, I chose 239 00:14:54.070 --> 00:14:57.830 to put my face on the front to say, anyone can have 240 00:14:57.830 --> 00:15:01.654 gravitas. You know, it doesn't matter who you are. You know, you 241 00:15:01.654 --> 00:15:05.274 can find a way of developing it, find your own way of developing it. 242 00:15:06.695 --> 00:15:10.000 And I I like that shock and awe. You know, I if you if you 243 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:13.520 do the same as everybody else and and conform to what people are 244 00:15:13.520 --> 00:15:17.360 expecting, then you're just kinda bland. You 245 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:20.235 become bland and you merge into the background. I 246 00:15:21.575 --> 00:15:25.274 mean, I've asked you as I've I've had many conversations 247 00:15:25.334 --> 00:15:28.860 with other women, you know, either in the bar after the event 248 00:15:28.860 --> 00:15:32.459 or in coffee breaks, whatever you're taught. I've met many women 249 00:15:32.459 --> 00:15:36.105 who have a confidence, find they're not 250 00:15:36.105 --> 00:15:39.325 being heard. And and, of course, my 251 00:15:39.785 --> 00:15:43.380 socialized brain is listening to the way they're talking, thinking why I 252 00:15:43.380 --> 00:15:47.000 could completely understand why you're not getting heard because 253 00:15:48.180 --> 00:15:51.620 you don't have any gravitas in your 254 00:15:51.620 --> 00:15:55.205 voice. You don't have any, your sentences aren't 255 00:15:55.205 --> 00:15:58.805 structured in a way where I know what you want. They're kind 256 00:15:58.805 --> 00:16:02.490 of drifting and I think 257 00:16:02.490 --> 00:16:05.930 that is some of the some of the challenge that many women I've I've spoken 258 00:16:05.930 --> 00:16:09.690 to who have kind of lack of confidence is they don't know 259 00:16:09.690 --> 00:16:12.115 how to be confident to start with and 260 00:16:13.615 --> 00:16:17.455 put themselves in a situation where they speak with authority that 261 00:16:17.455 --> 00:16:20.910 that maybe the uptick is occurring because of that nervousness or that 262 00:16:20.910 --> 00:16:24.589 that that anxiousness they feel, that projection or or 263 00:16:24.589 --> 00:16:28.305 being talked over maybe. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think that 264 00:16:28.305 --> 00:16:32.145 that can be the case with men and women. And and I I 265 00:16:32.145 --> 00:16:35.525 think that it it takes practice and it's absolutely 266 00:16:35.665 --> 00:16:39.490 learnable. I I think what people often do is they they feel like once 267 00:16:39.490 --> 00:16:43.170 they finally got the spotlight, they feel like they they they go overboard. They're 268 00:16:43.170 --> 00:16:46.825 trying to justify. They had all of the information and they just they 269 00:16:46.825 --> 00:16:50.365 go around the houses and and the the nuggets of information 270 00:16:50.505 --> 00:16:54.080 or they they get lost. I think when it 271 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:57.600 comes to women and and when I wrote the book, Power Up, I 272 00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:00.980 I I was really clear that I wanted to get tangible 273 00:17:01.280 --> 00:17:05.115 evidence and and real research to back up what I was saying 274 00:17:05.115 --> 00:17:08.795 because I, you know, I wanted to make sure that it it the 275 00:17:08.795 --> 00:17:09.890 research demonstrates this and 276 00:17:21.275 --> 00:17:25.115 And female conditioning, you know, the way the girls are brought up like you were 277 00:17:25.115 --> 00:17:28.650 talk talking about before, you know, we we do. We get hold to sit 278 00:17:28.650 --> 00:17:32.350 still, be quiet, not make a fuss, you know, be pretty, 279 00:17:33.289 --> 00:17:37.130 you know, go play nicely, and and girls are, you know, girls are 280 00:17:37.130 --> 00:17:40.965 encouraged and conditioned in that way. Whereas boys, you know, they 281 00:17:40.965 --> 00:17:44.325 go run outside, play, be loud, get into 282 00:17:44.325 --> 00:17:48.100 fisticuffs, and that's almost celebrated as well. And so, 283 00:17:48.100 --> 00:17:51.700 you know, those those roles or those expectations get formed really, 284 00:17:51.700 --> 00:17:54.815 really early on. So that happens. 285 00:17:55.595 --> 00:17:59.355 And then and so, you know, there's that society's conditioning. And 286 00:17:59.355 --> 00:18:02.415 so I I talk about that there's the glass ceiling 287 00:18:03.159 --> 00:18:06.919 which, you know, their society's perspectives on on to the 288 00:18:06.919 --> 00:18:10.679 extent to which women can progress and develop within within organizations and 289 00:18:10.679 --> 00:18:14.404 who is expected to be at the top of those organizations. There's 290 00:18:14.404 --> 00:18:18.164 a glass ceiling, but there's also glass bricks that 291 00:18:18.164 --> 00:18:21.789 women almost have in their own head that stop themselves from 292 00:18:21.789 --> 00:18:25.570 putting themselves out there. So that conditioning, things like perfectionism, 293 00:18:27.070 --> 00:18:30.855 imposter syndrome, trying too hard, being the 294 00:18:30.855 --> 00:18:34.295 good girl. These are all glass breaks which get in the way. So it's not 295 00:18:34.295 --> 00:18:37.915 surprisingly that when the woman finally gets a chance to speak, 296 00:18:38.970 --> 00:18:42.510 it comes out jumbled and there's all of this stuff that gets in the way. 297 00:18:44.010 --> 00:18:46.650 But it doesn't mean that it has to be the case. You know, it it 298 00:18:46.650 --> 00:18:50.184 is about how do you learn to overcome that? How do you structure your thinking? 299 00:18:50.184 --> 00:18:53.384 How did you get clarity in your thinking? And how do you use some of 300 00:18:53.384 --> 00:18:56.840 those techniques around being heard? Things like pausing 301 00:18:57.620 --> 00:19:01.220 to make sure your message lands. I 302 00:19:01.220 --> 00:19:05.015 completely agree. I I've had so many more 303 00:19:05.015 --> 00:19:07.995 conversations with other women in the last 3 or 4 years than I ever had 304 00:19:08.054 --> 00:19:11.399 in in earlier in my life. And I've met some amazingly 305 00:19:11.460 --> 00:19:15.220 strong powerful women who don't speak loudly. They 306 00:19:15.220 --> 00:19:18.440 don't speak with any aggression or pushiness. 307 00:19:19.175 --> 00:19:23.015 But they're just so thoughtful, so considered, and they 308 00:19:23.015 --> 00:19:26.615 really are at the top of their game. And they show me 309 00:19:26.615 --> 00:19:30.290 every day that you can succeed by really 310 00:19:30.290 --> 00:19:33.970 being authentic and feminine, but know your mind. 311 00:19:33.970 --> 00:19:37.515 And I'm not saying don't suffer fools, 312 00:19:37.815 --> 00:19:41.575 but be wary of the fact that people are going to maybe look 313 00:19:41.575 --> 00:19:45.350 down at you or undervalue you, hold your ground, hold that strain and 314 00:19:45.350 --> 00:19:48.870 and say, Jo, I am good enough and my opinion is valid 315 00:19:48.870 --> 00:19:52.645 and as I have lots of conversation with women And I really 316 00:19:52.645 --> 00:19:54.985 see that and respect that in them. And it's 317 00:19:56.405 --> 00:20:00.180 Yeah. And and and it's learned though. It's for all of us, 318 00:20:00.180 --> 00:20:03.780 it's land. It it comes over time. But I think, you know, that they're 319 00:20:03.780 --> 00:20:07.540 more powerful blockers in the way for women because of what I've just described 320 00:20:07.540 --> 00:20:11.215 there than there are for men. And and I meet a lot of women 321 00:20:11.755 --> 00:20:15.435 who say, oh god. I wish I've met you 30 years ago. You know, I've 322 00:20:15.435 --> 00:20:18.815 I've wasted so much time getting in my own way. 323 00:20:19.420 --> 00:20:22.720 If only I knew some of these things when I was in my twenties, 324 00:20:23.660 --> 00:20:27.375 a lot of meandering, you know, career wise 325 00:20:27.375 --> 00:20:30.674 or or or vocally, you know, wouldn't have happened. 326 00:20:32.255 --> 00:20:35.779 Is it is it a male trait that men tend 327 00:20:35.779 --> 00:20:38.840 to be more competitive or 328 00:20:39.299 --> 00:20:42.980 more, feudalistic towards each other? There's a 329 00:20:42.980 --> 00:20:46.345 lot more jockeying for hierarchy 330 00:20:46.404 --> 00:20:49.465 within within men that is about winning, 331 00:20:50.485 --> 00:20:50.985 conflicting, 332 00:20:56.210 --> 00:21:00.055 difficult to say more collaborative, more nurturing, more nurturing, more respectful 333 00:21:00.055 --> 00:21:03.275 of each other Jo we don't tend to get into those conflict 334 00:21:03.655 --> 00:21:07.415 conversations with each other. And men have been practicing this 335 00:21:07.415 --> 00:21:11.190 kind of bravado and socialized into that, which is 336 00:21:11.190 --> 00:21:15.029 why maybe women struggled in those in those environments where they need to 337 00:21:15.029 --> 00:21:18.665 have a conflict or be forthright. That 338 00:21:18.665 --> 00:21:22.025 is a natural skill they've learned over the years. Yeah. Spot 339 00:21:22.025 --> 00:21:25.570 on. And so, you know, I 340 00:21:25.570 --> 00:21:29.410 think it's it's how do you approach conflict or challenging conversations? Do you 341 00:21:29.410 --> 00:21:32.470 go into them knowingly and, 342 00:21:32.930 --> 00:21:36.595 choose to put yourself out there or or do you shy away from 343 00:21:36.595 --> 00:21:40.435 them altogether. So that that there's that. It's the choice. It's 344 00:21:40.435 --> 00:21:44.020 how you behave, but it's also what happens afterwards. Because what often 345 00:21:44.020 --> 00:21:47.160 happens with women is that we'll hold on to things. 346 00:21:47.940 --> 00:21:51.320 We'll we'll replay things that have happened and and we'll, 347 00:21:52.020 --> 00:21:55.845 yeah, we'll and whereas men will just kinda let them go. It's like there was 348 00:21:55.845 --> 00:21:59.605 a conflict. There was a there was a disagreement. There was a a bit of 349 00:21:59.605 --> 00:22:03.410 sparring, and then it's just gone. Whereas women would just hold on 350 00:22:03.410 --> 00:22:06.790 to that, and it will stop them from it then going into a similar situation 351 00:22:07.650 --> 00:22:11.385 after. Yeah. I I see that from both sides. 352 00:22:11.385 --> 00:22:14.445 From both sides of my life, I I see the difference 353 00:22:15.145 --> 00:22:18.650 in Okay. The way that conversations are closed and 354 00:22:18.650 --> 00:22:22.410 resolved. As you say, a couple of 355 00:22:22.410 --> 00:22:26.225 broken noses and it's sat on the back in a pint and and it's 356 00:22:26.225 --> 00:22:29.925 forgotten. Whereas women, it's a it's a lifelong, lifelong, 357 00:22:31.025 --> 00:22:34.460 disagreement and it's really hard to resolve that cold argument, isn't it? The whole 358 00:22:34.460 --> 00:22:38.220 argument resolved quickly. The cold arguments, once they freeze, 359 00:22:38.220 --> 00:22:41.679 they kinda set in, and it's really hard to Jo overcome those. 360 00:22:42.115 --> 00:22:45.795 Yeah. And I think yeah. And and when women 361 00:22:45.795 --> 00:22:49.475 don't do that, that perhaps if they if they are colder or 362 00:22:49.475 --> 00:22:52.410 harder or more direct or stronger, 363 00:22:53.190 --> 00:22:56.750 then they they'll get labeled in in all different ways. So they're like 364 00:22:56.870 --> 00:23:00.650 either get labeled a bitch or they'll get labeled a, you know, 365 00:23:02.125 --> 00:23:05.345 a tyrant or they'll get labeled a a queen bee. 366 00:23:05.965 --> 00:23:09.810 And, and so, you know, a queen bee's, I guess, syndrome is a slightly 367 00:23:09.810 --> 00:23:12.930 different thing because, you know, a woman has sort of decided to kind of put 368 00:23:12.930 --> 00:23:16.770 herself in that position and and she'll she'll trample over other 369 00:23:16.770 --> 00:23:20.325 people to get to that place. So that's a slightly different thing. 370 00:23:20.325 --> 00:23:24.085 But you you kinda question what would be different 371 00:23:24.085 --> 00:23:27.880 if it were a man evidencing those kinds of behaviors. And, actually, would those 372 00:23:28.040 --> 00:23:31.880 behaviors end up getting celebrated and and enable that person to 373 00:23:31.880 --> 00:23:35.560 kinda rise up through the ranks, as opposed to being held 374 00:23:35.560 --> 00:23:39.294 back. I don't know. It's, you know, expectations of what we think is the right 375 00:23:39.294 --> 00:23:42.655 way to be and and isn't. And I think, you know, the fresh pair of 376 00:23:42.655 --> 00:23:45.980 eyes thing is thinking, well, why should it be like that? Why should any of 377 00:23:45.980 --> 00:23:49.659 it be like that? Why can't we all celebrate, you 378 00:23:49.659 --> 00:23:53.075 know, all of our differences? You think about emotional 379 00:23:53.135 --> 00:23:56.815 intelligence, I I actually think that that is a superpower that we 380 00:23:56.815 --> 00:24:00.275 all need to develop and, progress with. 381 00:24:00.815 --> 00:24:04.320 And I remember running a session a few years ago now, but it was for 382 00:24:04.320 --> 00:24:07.760 an investment bank, and it was all men, 20 men and 383 00:24:07.760 --> 00:24:11.165 me. And it's like, right. Today, we're going to 384 00:24:11.165 --> 00:24:15.005 explore in emotional intelligence. And you could see 20 385 00:24:15.005 --> 00:24:18.740 pairs of eyes all rolling. It's like, what is this fluffy stuff I'm gonna talk 386 00:24:18.740 --> 00:24:22.100 about now? What was she gonna be banging on about now? You know, and it's 387 00:24:22.740 --> 00:24:26.405 and and I don't think it has changed. I think it is evolving but 388 00:24:26.565 --> 00:24:30.345 still there's that association that we place on 389 00:24:30.725 --> 00:24:34.565 the more intuitive hours that that they're softer or they're 390 00:24:34.565 --> 00:24:38.310 lighter or that they're less valuable. Actually, I think the reverse is 391 00:24:38.310 --> 00:24:42.150 true. I'll just pick up what you're saying 392 00:24:42.150 --> 00:24:45.655 about when we try to introduce men to the fluffier side of 393 00:24:45.655 --> 00:24:49.495 of EQ. And it reminds me, I was I was 394 00:24:49.495 --> 00:24:53.115 on stage in San Francisco and I was on a panel 395 00:24:53.255 --> 00:24:57.090 and the topic was effectively gender equality in the workplace, 396 00:24:57.090 --> 00:25:00.870 how do we level up? And 397 00:25:01.170 --> 00:25:04.130 I was asked the question and I I as I was asked the question, I 398 00:25:04.130 --> 00:25:07.975 was thinking, I looked out into the room and there must be 399 00:25:07.975 --> 00:25:11.495 600 people, 2 blocks of 300 corridor down the 400 00:25:11.495 --> 00:25:15.020 middle. I just looked around and said, isn't part the 401 00:25:15.020 --> 00:25:18.380