WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.839 --> 00:00:09.634 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the 2 00:00:09.634 --> 00:00:13.315 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number of 3 00:00:13.315 --> 00:00:17.095 amazing people and simply had a conversation about the subject of inclusion, 4 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:21.240 belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to 5 00:00:21.240 --> 00:00:24.680 thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me 6 00:00:24.680 --> 00:00:26.855 a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 7 00:00:28.275 --> 00:00:32.114 That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You'll be able 8 00:00:32.114 --> 00:00:35.690 to catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify, and the 9 00:00:35.690 --> 00:00:39.450 usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab 10 00:00:39.450 --> 00:00:43.125 a decaf, and let's get going. Today 11 00:00:43.265 --> 00:00:46.485 is episode 40 with the title, rediscovering 12 00:00:47.265 --> 00:00:50.864 lost knowledge. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to be 13 00:00:50.864 --> 00:00:54.480 joined by Peter Edge. Peter described himself 14 00:00:54.480 --> 00:00:58.180 who is someone who is a former senior investigating 15 00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:02.065 officer for Merseyside Police, a professional speaker with over 16 00:01:02.065 --> 00:01:05.745 40 years experience speaking before dinner on the subject 17 00:01:05.745 --> 00:01:09.500 of lost knowledge to customer service and after dinner on the 18 00:01:09.500 --> 00:01:13.340 lighter side of policing the inner city. It'd be interesting to 19 00:01:13.340 --> 00:01:16.780 find out what the lighter side is. When I asked Peter to describe his 20 00:01:16.780 --> 00:01:20.345 suit, he said he's walked the Camino to Santiago 21 00:01:20.645 --> 00:01:24.085 3 times by 3 different routes. Hello, 22 00:01:24.085 --> 00:01:27.750 Peter. Welcome to the show. Hello, Jo. I'm it's 23 00:01:27.750 --> 00:01:31.590 it's an absolute pleasure to be here, I have to say. I've been looking 24 00:01:31.590 --> 00:01:34.730 forward to it for quite a while. So Yeah. 25 00:01:35.155 --> 00:01:38.594 We've we've talked about it, and finally, we've got together. Got our diaries lined up 26 00:01:38.594 --> 00:01:42.360 in the end, didn't we? Yeah. It's pretty difficult, which which 27 00:01:42.360 --> 00:01:45.980 you wouldn't believe really, would you, in this current climate? You'd think everyone would have 28 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:49.640 all the time in the world, but it's so difficult to to to actually 29 00:01:49.640 --> 00:01:51.260 find the right time that coincides. 30 00:01:54.365 --> 00:01:57.325 Jo You spend a lot of time washing your hair for white hair. 31 00:01:59.440 --> 00:02:02.800 Yeah. That doesn't work too well on a podcast, does it really? Just for the 32 00:02:02.800 --> 00:02:06.560 benefit of your listeners. No. There's not that much hair on my 33 00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:09.894 head. There used to be a long time ago, but there's not been that much 34 00:02:09.894 --> 00:02:13.655 there for about the last 30 years. Oh, sorry. Yeah. So, yeah, washing 35 00:02:13.655 --> 00:02:17.435 my hair and all that all that, that hysteria 36 00:02:17.495 --> 00:02:20.840 about finally being able to go to the hairdressers that people were experiencing 37 00:02:21.700 --> 00:02:25.240 towards the end of lockdown was unfortunately lost on me. 38 00:02:26.135 --> 00:02:29.495 A quick robot with some wet and dry sandpaper, and I'm I'm usually good for 39 00:02:29.495 --> 00:02:33.194 the solution. It is. 40 00:02:33.655 --> 00:02:36.319 You're probably gonna tell me you won't worry about the nail bars and having your 41 00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:39.780 nails done either. What would yeah. Sausage 42 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:43.615 rate. Sausage rate. Joking. Yeah. Yeah. I'm afraid, 43 00:02:43.935 --> 00:02:47.615 yeah, a a long time ago, I stopped looking in the mirror and thinking, oh, 44 00:02:47.615 --> 00:02:51.330 you look good. Nowadays, I just look away. I don't I don't 45 00:02:51.330 --> 00:02:55.130 I don't bother. It doesn't it doesn't appeal to 46 00:02:55.130 --> 00:02:58.610 you. The mirror, make sure that you you can see the breath marks on the 47 00:02:58.610 --> 00:03:02.145 mirror still. Yeah. Yeah. You look good. I'm still breathing. Yes. Yeah. 48 00:03:02.145 --> 00:03:05.905 That's that's nice. Thing I check each day. And then as far as 49 00:03:05.905 --> 00:03:08.945 I'm concerned, that's a winner. I'm on it for on it for the rest of 50 00:03:08.945 --> 00:03:12.629 the day then. Yeah. So I can live with that. That'll do. 51 00:03:12.930 --> 00:03:16.690 Another day done. Brilliant. Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah. Okay. So tell 52 00:03:16.690 --> 00:03:20.355 me, we talked about earlier, you talked about this rediscovering 53 00:03:20.415 --> 00:03:23.555 lost knowledge. So talk to me about 54 00:03:23.855 --> 00:03:27.430 this lost knowledge you talk about. Well, 55 00:03:27.970 --> 00:03:31.650 I don't know whether it's Jo much about rediscovering it. It's more about 56 00:03:31.650 --> 00:03:35.455 capturing and and retaining lost knowledge. And it's 57 00:03:35.535 --> 00:03:39.135 something I I I became interested in some years ago, not least of 58 00:03:39.135 --> 00:03:42.895 which because I I I thought to myself, here we 59 00:03:42.895 --> 00:03:43.295 all are as as probably the most sophisticated animal on the planet, and we are 60 00:03:43.295 --> 00:03:44.515 accumulating knowledge. 61 00:03:54.555 --> 00:03:58.234 Plug a USB stick into your left ear hole and download 62 00:03:58.234 --> 00:04:00.495 it. And, you know, what happens to it all? 63 00:04:01.834 --> 00:04:04.500 And particularly, what happens to 64 00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:09.120 specialist knowledge or, you know, really valuable knowledge that really, really makes 65 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:12.894 a difference? What do we do with it? And 66 00:04:12.894 --> 00:04:16.654 we don't seem to to to to value it to the 67 00:04:16.654 --> 00:04:18.995 extent that we're we're gonna do it do anything 68 00:04:20.120 --> 00:04:23.819 proactive to to to save it or retain it. 69 00:04:23.960 --> 00:04:27.675 And and there were 22 little things which really, really got 70 00:04:27.675 --> 00:04:31.215 me going, one of which was a conversation with a really good friend of mine, 71 00:04:31.595 --> 00:04:35.199 called Jed, who was a was a teacher. And 72 00:04:35.580 --> 00:04:39.259 he was he came late to teach him. You know, he did 73 00:04:39.259 --> 00:04:42.960 previously worked on the production line at Ford's. And 74 00:04:44.495 --> 00:04:48.175 he he took to teaching like a doctor Walter, and the 75 00:04:48.175 --> 00:04:51.940 kids loved him. The parents loved him. Everyone loved him. He was 76 00:04:51.940 --> 00:04:55.319 a great teacher. And just before he retired, 77 00:04:55.780 --> 00:04:59.460 couple of years ago now, he went in to see his head teacher, and his 78 00:04:59.460 --> 00:05:03.205 head said, you know what, Jed? If we could bottle what you have 79 00:05:03.205 --> 00:05:06.665 as a teacher, this wouldn't just be a good school. 80 00:05:07.445 --> 00:05:10.425 This would be an outstanding school. 81 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:15.700 And then he let him walk away. And Jed left 82 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:19.940 that school in possession of 83 00:05:20.884 --> 00:05:24.564 knowledge, wisdom, charisma, x 84 00:05:24.564 --> 00:05:27.465 fact, whatever you call it, that had the 85 00:05:28.139 --> 00:05:31.120 capability of taking that school from being good 86 00:05:31.979 --> 00:05:35.680 to outstanding. And he let it walk away. 87 00:05:36.824 --> 00:05:40.585 And I thought, like, you know, that's a hell of a waste. What 88 00:05:40.585 --> 00:05:44.185 a waste of knowledge. And then shortly after that, I opened this Jo many 89 00:05:44.185 --> 00:05:47.530 times one day, and and there was a a headline. This is the thing that 90 00:05:47.530 --> 00:05:50.970 struck me as a as a police officer of a of a certain 91 00:05:50.970 --> 00:05:54.694 vintage. And there was a picture I don't even remember the television 92 00:05:54.755 --> 00:05:58.535 series, you know, Life on Mars and then the subsequent one, Ashes to Ashes, 93 00:05:59.290 --> 00:06:02.970 which was set in the sort of late seventies, early eighties with all these 94 00:06:02.970 --> 00:06:06.785 archetypal detectives and, you know, big collars and flares and 95 00:06:06.785 --> 00:06:10.324 all that sort of stuff. But it was a picture from that television 96 00:06:10.544 --> 00:06:14.145 series, and it was, I think, Keeley Hawes and 97 00:06:14.145 --> 00:06:17.830 Philip Glynnister were 2 of the main characters sat on the bonnet of a, 98 00:06:18.050 --> 00:06:21.330 I don't know, Cortina or an Audi or something that'd been using as a police 99 00:06:21.330 --> 00:06:25.145 car. And the headline read, MET Stumped by 100 00:06:25.145 --> 00:06:28.585 Case of Disappearing CID. And the 101 00:06:28.585 --> 00:06:32.250 article was all about how the Metropolitan Police in 102 00:06:32.250 --> 00:06:35.610 London, you know, the biggest police force in the country, the most powerful police 103 00:06:35.610 --> 00:06:39.389 force probably in the world with, you know, with a global 104 00:06:39.449 --> 00:06:42.895 reach and with, you know, a national responsibility 105 00:06:43.195 --> 00:06:46.415 for the investigation of terrorism and various other types of crimes, 106 00:06:47.355 --> 00:06:49.070 were losing detectives, the 107 00:06:57.210 --> 00:07:01.055 then assistant commissioner of what had happened was that the the then 108 00:07:01.435 --> 00:07:04.955 assistant commissioner for for crime operations, Pat 109 00:07:04.955 --> 00:07:08.340 Gallant, had written to every detective due to 110 00:07:08.340 --> 00:07:11.860 retire in that year and said and implored 111 00:07:11.860 --> 00:07:15.505 them to stay to stay on and to act 112 00:07:15.505 --> 00:07:18.885 as mentors for junior detectives coming through. 113 00:07:19.185 --> 00:07:22.785 Now it it appealed to me because I know Pat Gallagher, and 114 00:07:22.785 --> 00:07:26.530 she she wouldn't implore anyone to do anything, really. So 115 00:07:26.530 --> 00:07:29.890 it came as a real surprise that, you know, in in 116 00:07:29.890 --> 00:07:33.555 this very short time window, she 117 00:07:33.555 --> 00:07:37.315 had realized, hang on. We're gonna lose all these people, and 118 00:07:37.315 --> 00:07:40.855 we haven't got the experience and the knowledge coming through 119 00:07:41.150 --> 00:07:44.910 to be replaced. So what are we gonna do? And so, you 120 00:07:44.910 --> 00:07:48.750 know, cobbled with the the story from my other friend, Jed, 121 00:07:48.750 --> 00:07:52.425 and this, it it just really got me thinking about, you know, what do 122 00:07:52.485 --> 00:07:55.705 businesses, what do organizations, what do bodies do 123 00:07:56.565 --> 00:08:00.230 to firstly, identify the value of 124 00:08:00.230 --> 00:08:04.010 knowledge in their organizations and then do something 125 00:08:04.389 --> 00:08:08.055 to, to to capture it or to to 126 00:08:08.055 --> 00:08:11.275 safeguard their organization against its loss. 127 00:08:11.815 --> 00:08:14.555 So that prompted me to do a lot of reading around the subject, 128 00:08:15.620 --> 00:08:19.380 and that prompted me then to to to come up with a a talk and 129 00:08:19.380 --> 00:08:21.320 and some various other things that I've done 130 00:08:22.980 --> 00:08:26.825 around the subject of lost knowledge with an overall framework 131 00:08:26.825 --> 00:08:30.345 of knowledge management, strategic knowledge 132 00:08:30.345 --> 00:08:34.140 management, risk assessments, preparation, all that 133 00:08:34.140 --> 00:08:37.980 sort of stuff. So so that's what I've been talking about recently 134 00:08:37.980 --> 00:08:41.795 and doing quite a bit of writing about as well. One, because 135 00:08:41.795 --> 00:08:45.555 it intrigued me, and 2, because I I hate waste. Any sort 136 00:08:45.555 --> 00:08:48.935 of waste, I hate. And and the idea that you can waste 137 00:08:48.995 --> 00:08:52.380 knowledge just it's it's sinful to to 138 00:08:52.380 --> 00:08:56.139 me. So does that does that put 139 00:08:56.139 --> 00:08:59.360 that You're so right. Yeah. That's next. 140 00:09:00.504 --> 00:09:04.024 Companies lose vast amounts of knowledge and 141 00:09:04.024 --> 00:09:07.404 experience. And when we're looking at, you know, 142 00:09:07.464 --> 00:09:11.170 building more inclusive cultures, when we talk about staff retention, when we talk 143 00:09:11.170 --> 00:09:14.930 about the business because actually value the 144 00:09:14.930 --> 00:09:18.390 staff retention in the lost knowledge, the retraining, the onboarding, 145 00:09:18.975 --> 00:09:22.575 the empty seat cost and the opportunity lost. Oh, yeah. 146 00:09:22.575 --> 00:09:26.415 People move on. And it is a real business expense that 147 00:09:26.415 --> 00:09:30.240 people really don't always quantify enough, don't understand that cost is lost knowledge. 148 00:09:30.780 --> 00:09:33.660 Yeah. Well, one of the things that I did when I was reading around the 149 00:09:33.660 --> 00:09:37.260 subject, I read a report, and I think it was 150 00:09:37.260 --> 00:09:40.685 called pretty catchy title called The Cost of Brain 151 00:09:40.685 --> 00:09:44.145 Drain, which I think was done by Oxford Economics. 152 00:09:44.445 --> 00:09:46.545 And I think they surveyed 153 00:09:48.860 --> 00:09:52.459 across something like 5 sectors, so from retail through 154 00:09:52.459 --> 00:09:56.275 to legal. And they estimated, I think, that 155 00:09:56.275 --> 00:09:59.495 the average cost, average mind, 156 00:09:59.875 --> 00:10:03.670 of replacing a member 157 00:10:03.670 --> 00:10:06.970 of staff getting paid £25,000 a year. 158 00:10:07.350 --> 00:10:10.090 Salary was between 159 00:10:11.425 --> 00:10:15.265 £20,040,000. The lower end for retail, 160 00:10:15.265 --> 00:10:18.800 the higher end for for legal. And you think, hang 161 00:10:18.800 --> 00:10:22.399 on, 40 has about to replace someone. So that's, you know, all the 162 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:25.860 different costs that you just described there. So, you know, the the recruitment 163 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:29.805 costs, the retraining, the onboarding, the dip in 164 00:10:29.805 --> 00:10:33.404 productivity while they bring people up to speed. And there 165 00:10:33.404 --> 00:10:37.010 was quite a debate on on on the Internet 166 00:10:37.630 --> 00:10:41.470 connected to the to the reports, and people said, Jo, that's way 167 00:10:41.470 --> 00:10:45.055 too much. And then the more and more people came in, particularly 168 00:10:45.055 --> 00:10:48.894 people from, you know, established HR functions and some 169 00:10:48.894 --> 00:10:52.675 of the big hitters, it became quite clear that that, 170 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:55.300 as an estimate, was was pretty conservative. 171 00:10:56.319 --> 00:11:00.000 And if you think about it as as an 172 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:03.795 employer, as as an organization, and I I used this the 173 00:11:03.795 --> 00:11:07.555 the the other day, if that's happening to you time 174 00:11:07.555 --> 00:11:10.535 after time after time, then your 175 00:11:11.380 --> 00:11:15.160 your organizational performance is is gonna be on this roller coaster 176 00:11:15.620 --> 00:11:19.405 of, you know, dips in productivity while you retrain and recruit someone, dips 177 00:11:19.565 --> 00:11:23.325 in productivity while somebody else goes or you hadn't anticipated, and 178 00:11:23.325 --> 00:11:26.705 you get them retrained or you get somebody in or you get a temp. 179 00:11:27.085 --> 00:11:30.620 And who really wants to run an organization that's on a roller 180 00:11:30.620 --> 00:11:34.300 coaster of performance? Surely surely, your business 181 00:11:34.300 --> 00:11:37.995 trajectory should be smoother, slightly 182 00:11:37.995 --> 00:11:41.754 elevated, continuous improvement Jo you can plan, so you know 183 00:11:41.754 --> 00:11:44.894 and can predict where you're heading. But, no, 184 00:11:45.350 --> 00:11:49.190 organizations still seem to, not everyone, but 185 00:11:49.190 --> 00:11:52.730 still seem to have this, this this almost 186 00:11:52.870 --> 00:11:56.595 blind spot to to to knowledge and its 187 00:11:56.595 --> 00:11:59.735 value. And it all boils down to, 188 00:12:00.754 --> 00:12:04.440 for me, a reluctance or an inability 189 00:12:04.660 --> 00:12:08.420 perhaps sometimes to to recognize the value that 190 00:12:08.420 --> 00:12:11.955 individuals bring to the organization in 191 00:12:11.955 --> 00:12:15.475 terms of the knowledge that they have. And that comes down 192 00:12:15.475 --> 00:12:19.040 to leadership, it comes down to basic things like 193 00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:22.959 staff appraisal type reports, it comes down 194 00:12:22.959 --> 00:12:26.420 to performance measurements, 195 00:12:26.800 --> 00:12:30.385 you know, the sort of performance measures 196 00:12:30.385 --> 00:12:34.225 that the businesses use, what do they see as evidence of their 197 00:12:34.225 --> 00:12:37.205 success, and how do they tie that to individual employees 198 00:12:37.985 --> 00:12:41.830 and say, hang on. Hang on. Joe, get in here. Joe, do you 199 00:12:41.830 --> 00:12:45.590 realize you're brilliant at what you do? Why are you so 200 00:12:45.590 --> 00:12:49.385 much better than Peter? Where's the gap? Where's 201 00:12:49.385 --> 00:12:52.985 the gap in the knowledge? Where's the gap in in, you know, that x 202 00:12:52.985 --> 00:12:56.769 factor that you have that they don't? Because we 203 00:12:56.769 --> 00:13:00.529 we should. We've got a responsibility to use that. So 204 00:13:00.529 --> 00:13:03.889 we've not only got a responsibility to tell you that you're great at what you 205 00:13:03.889 --> 00:13:07.375 do, but as as your manager, as your leader, 206 00:13:07.755 --> 00:13:11.435 surely I've got a responsibility to find out why you're so good at what you 207 00:13:11.435 --> 00:13:15.130 do so that I can apply that knowledge to other employees in this 208 00:13:15.130 --> 00:13:18.810 organization for the overall benefit of the organization. Surely, that's what 209 00:13:18.810 --> 00:13:22.215 continuous improvement's about. But people 210 00:13:22.215 --> 00:13:25.975 don't. And, you know, they don't read the clues. And there are 211 00:13:25.975 --> 00:13:29.760 so many examples of this not knocking about. You know, 212 00:13:29.760 --> 00:13:33.459 I I use an example in in one of the talks 213 00:13:33.760 --> 00:13:37.515 of someone who who worked with my wife. Now my wife works for a 214 00:13:37.515 --> 00:13:41.135 clinical commissioning group, which is the, you know, the modern day 215 00:13:41.515 --> 00:13:44.975 iteration. It won't be around for much longer, I don't think, but of the primary 216 00:13:45.035 --> 00:13:48.320 care trust, so in the National Health Service. And 217 00:13:48.940 --> 00:13:52.700 she worked with someone who had worked with this 218 00:13:52.700 --> 00:13:55.705 particular group since its inception. 219 00:13:56.565 --> 00:14:00.245 So this person had seen it move from being a 220 00:14:00.245 --> 00:14:02.345 primary care trust through various, 221 00:14:05.210 --> 00:14:09.050 metamorphosis through to the clinical commissioning group. She had all 222 00:14:09.050 --> 00:14:12.785 the corporate memory, She had all the processes, all the 223 00:14:12.785 --> 00:14:16.385 people. She'd be in the journey all the way 224 00:14:16.385 --> 00:14:20.110 through. And she became, I suppose, a little bit dissatisfied 225 00:14:20.250 --> 00:14:24.030 or disillusioned or wanted to go somewhere else and 226 00:14:24.170 --> 00:14:27.550 started looking for a Jo, found a job, 227 00:14:28.865 --> 00:14:32.465 went to her bosses, her leaders in in this group and said, 228 00:14:32.465 --> 00:14:36.225 listen. I've got a new job. I'm quite happy to work my 229 00:14:36.225 --> 00:14:39.100 notice, whatever it was, a month, 3 months. 230 00:14:39.800 --> 00:14:43.560 But you might wanna put someone with me to, you know, to empty 231 00:14:43.560 --> 00:14:47.305 me out, to to to to shadow me in this next however 232 00:14:47.305 --> 00:14:50.985 many months and try and absorb all that and capture some of 233 00:14:50.985 --> 00:14:54.825 that accumulate. Yeah. Okay. Thanks very much. And they never 234 00:14:54.825 --> 00:14:58.270 came back to her. And And she went back and said, 235 00:14:58.490 --> 00:15:02.170 remember, I'll I'll be going. It's it's only another it's only another 2 weeks 236 00:15:02.170 --> 00:15:05.630 now, and I'll I'll be out of here. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for that. Yeah. 237 00:15:06.195 --> 00:15:09.655 But they did nothing about it, and she left. 238 00:15:10.515 --> 00:15:14.209 And the next thing, immediately after she'd gone, you 239 00:15:14.209 --> 00:15:17.730 know, there's a knock on the door and, hi. Can you just tell me, 240 00:15:18.050 --> 00:15:21.510 who who did we go to for the maintenance contract on 241 00:15:22.245 --> 00:15:25.764 I don't know. She used to look after that. Oh, 242 00:15:25.764 --> 00:15:29.600 right. Somebody else had ring you know, who did 243 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:33.040 the negotiations for the contract on such and such? No 244 00:15:33.040 --> 00:15:36.834 idea. She had all that. Oh, where do 245 00:15:36.834 --> 00:15:40.435 we get and it it was just one thing after another. And, you 246 00:15:40.435 --> 00:15:43.795 know, you okay. You perhaps don't measure the performance of an 247 00:15:43.795 --> 00:15:47.450 organization like that quite in the same way as you might have an organization 248 00:15:47.510 --> 00:15:51.270 that's making widgets and grommets. But, you know, their 249 00:15:51.270 --> 00:15:54.490 ability to to to perform and seamlessly 250 00:15:55.035 --> 00:15:58.574 and and in an upward trajectory was deeply 251 00:15:58.634 --> 00:16:02.315 affected just by this one person and this group. This one person was not at 252 00:16:02.315 --> 00:16:05.540 the top of the organization. This one person was 253 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:09.760 way down in the in the organizational food chain, for one sort of a 254 00:16:09.760 --> 00:16:13.175 better expression, but their knowledge was 255 00:16:13.175 --> 00:16:16.715 absolutely vital, and nobody had recognized 256 00:16:17.255 --> 00:16:21.070 it despite all the clues, despite this person always coming and, 257 00:16:21.070 --> 00:16:24.510 like, sticking a post it note on the face of the boss saying, I'm 258 00:16:24.510 --> 00:16:28.030 important. No one acknowledged it. No one 259 00:16:28.030 --> 00:16:31.834 recognized it. Nobody took the time or made the efforts 260 00:16:32.774 --> 00:16:36.535 to capture the knowledge that she had. They 261 00:16:36.535 --> 00:16:40.170 walked out the door. And that's a sin. It really 262 00:16:40.170 --> 00:16:43.150 is. And you can almost understand why 263 00:16:43.850 --> 00:16:47.450 they walked out the door because they weren't being recognized for 264 00:16:47.450 --> 00:16:51.295 their their whole part of the bigger process. 265 00:16:51.595 --> 00:16:55.135 They weren't badly used. They weren't treated as an important component. 266 00:16:55.500 --> 00:16:59.019 Yeah. And and that's one of the the the very points I make in in 267 00:16:59.019 --> 00:17:02.540 in the talk is that if you do 268 00:17:02.540 --> 00:17:06.375 recognize it really bothers me that that 269 00:17:06.375 --> 00:17:10.075 there is, there is a a a meaning attributed 270 00:17:10.135 --> 00:17:13.930 to that little sort of trite HR expression, 271 00:17:13.930 --> 00:17:17.690 reward and recognition. Reward and recognition is is about giving people, you 272 00:17:17.690 --> 00:17:21.370 know, a gold watch or a voucher for OZDA. It's not about saying to 273 00:17:21.370 --> 00:17:24.605 them, Joe, we recognize that, actually, 274 00:17:25.065 --> 00:17:28.825 if you didn't do what you do, this business would fall over. You're really 275 00:17:28.825 --> 00:17:32.330 good at what you do. That's recognition. And 276 00:17:32.330 --> 00:17:35.870 it bothers me that things like staff appraisal 277 00:17:35.929 --> 00:17:39.690 processes are so one-sided. They're things that we do 278 00:17:39.690 --> 00:17:43.525 to people. Whereas, for me, in this context of 279 00:17:43.525 --> 00:17:47.365 lost knowledge, it should be the other way around. It should be inviting 280 00:17:47.365 --> 00:17:51.130 in the a valuable employee and saying, how come 281 00:17:51.130 --> 00:17:54.970 you do so well? Tell tell us the organization so that we 282 00:17:54.970 --> 00:17:58.110 can capture it, as I said before, for the benefit of the organization. 283 00:17:58.815 --> 00:18:02.275 And actually telling someone that they're a key person, 284 00:18:03.055 --> 00:18:06.815 that they are valued, as you say, that might be the difference between 285 00:18:06.815 --> 00:18:10.480 them walking out the door and not. That might be the the difference between them 286 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:14.320 sitting there and puffing out with pride in me. Oh, nobody's ever told me 287 00:18:14.320 --> 00:18:17.965 that before. I'm actually valued. And that, you 288 00:18:17.965 --> 00:18:21.725 know, it it it breeds loyalty. It breeds self 289 00:18:21.725 --> 00:18:24.785 esteem. It breeds cohesion in a team. 290 00:18:26.460 --> 00:18:30.300 Self respect you know, the the benefits of doing it are just 291 00:18:30.300 --> 00:18:34.080 immeasurable, but the downsides of not doing it are catastrophic 292 00:18:34.460 --> 00:18:37.335 potentially. So why aren't people doing it? 293 00:18:38.434 --> 00:18:42.275 That's the thing for me. Oh, and as 294 00:18:42.275 --> 00:18:45.940 as we as we know ourselves, the facts don't change people. We know this stuff. 295 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:49.220 We don't address it, do we? And as you were talking, I was thinking, 296 00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:54.495 well, are we still living in a world, this command and control 297 00:18:54.635 --> 00:18:58.475 hierarchical infrastructure where everyone believes it's all 298 00:18:58.475 --> 00:19:01.835 process driven and everyone's just a part of a cog? But 299 00:19:01.835 --> 00:19:05.539 what the way that we're moving in workplace has become 300 00:19:05.539 --> 00:19:08.919 more complex, we've got more parts, more interactions, 301 00:19:09.915 --> 00:19:13.135 not just because of digital, it's because the way we're evolving as a society. 302 00:19:13.915 --> 00:19:17.360 And we're all becoming artists and specialists in our craft, 303 00:19:17.679 --> 00:19:21.360 and that craft may well be policy processing, it may be admin 304 00:19:21.360 --> 00:19:24.975 but it's still we're putting our own knowledge and skill 305 00:19:24.975 --> 00:19:28.815 into this, not just following a production on a process. I 306 00:19:28.815 --> 00:19:32.620 don't think organizations truly appreciate the artisan inside us, 307 00:19:33.180 --> 00:19:36.940 The creation we bring as an individual, they just see us as a 308 00:19:36.940 --> 00:19:40.700 cog, replaceable cog, and that's exactly what you're pointing out here as well. 309 00:19:40.700 --> 00:19:44.375 Yeah. Yeah. And and, you know, it dovetails so neatly 310 00:19:44.375 --> 00:19:48.215 with there was a piece I wrote some, like, probably years 311 00:19:48.215 --> 00:19:51.980 ago now on on on LinkedIn called lazy leaders leaders don't listen. 312 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:56.460 And it's all about, if you're in a leadership role, 313 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:01.465 you are obliged to proactively listen with 314 00:20:01.465 --> 00:20:05.225 all of your senses to what's going on around you. Because if you don't know 315 00:20:05.225 --> 00:20:08.745 your stuff, if you don't know what makes 316 00:20:08.745 --> 00:20:12.200 them tick, if you don't know and appreciate the 317 00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:15.880 contribution they make, you know, who oils the 318 00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:19.555 wheels, who do I rely on, who do we go to in a crisis, If 319 00:20:19.555 --> 00:20:23.095 you don't know those things, how are you ever going to protect 320 00:20:23.555 --> 00:20:27.015 the organization from losing the knowledge that those people 321 00:20:27.315 --> 00:20:31.120 hold? And so, you know, you you 322 00:20:31.120 --> 00:20:34.799 really do. You you you've got to let let well, get to know all of 323 00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:36.980 your people or as many as you can 324 00:20:39.265 --> 00:20:42.085 at a at a completely different level, you know, a level 325 00:20:43.184 --> 00:20:47.024 that that allows you to to sort of come into work and and look 326 00:20:47.024 --> 00:20:50.710 at Joe and say, I can tell right now. I know 327 00:20:50.850 --> 00:20:53.750 Joe so well. I can tell right now that something's not right. 328 00:20:54.450 --> 00:20:57.715 Joe, come on in. What's not right? 329 00:20:58.255 --> 00:21:01.534 Well, it's this. And when, you know, when when you get that sort of level, 330 00:21:01.534 --> 00:21:05.294 that sort of interaction, okay, you know, the person even if you work in a 331 00:21:05.294 --> 00:21:08.420 hierarchy, the person at the very top of the tree may not know that. 332 00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:12.880 But if the person further down who's managing the team or the person who's 333 00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:16.505 managing the manager of the team knows that, then at least there 334 00:21:16.505 --> 00:21:20.345 is a, you know, that there is a way of using that that 335 00:21:20.345 --> 00:21:24.170 that knowledge and that familiarity to to to make sure 336 00:21:24.170 --> 00:21:27.930 that you don't then lose the knowledge, that it doesn't walk 337 00:21:27.930 --> 00:21:31.635 out the door, that, you know, you Joanne you can turn it back on 338 00:21:31.635 --> 00:21:35.315 the organization for the benefit of the organization. That's 339 00:21:35.315 --> 00:21:39.155 that's that's what I'm getting at, really. But, of course, the one was you 340 00:21:39.155 --> 00:21:42.520 talked about artisan there. It's just it's really, really 341 00:21:43.620 --> 00:21:46.340 it it it rang home to me because it when I mentioned that I speak 342 00:21:46.340 --> 00:21:49.940 about this to anyone, anyone at 343 00:21:49.940 --> 00:21:53.735 all, Everyone's got an example of it. I was out for 344 00:21:53.735 --> 00:21:57.575 a walk a couple of weeks ago with a mate 345 00:21:57.575 --> 00:22:01.130 of mine and his son-in-law. I don't know his son-in-law particularly 346 00:22:01.130 --> 00:22:04.809 well, but he works in manufacturing, and and 347 00:22:04.809 --> 00:22:08.645 they they make electrical components. And I was talking about this. He says, 348 00:22:08.645 --> 00:22:11.945 god, you're so right. You know, we've we've got a fellow works for us. 349 00:22:12.645 --> 00:22:16.390 And he's the only person doing this particular 350 00:22:16.450 --> 00:22:20.210 job. Now they these people make specialist electrical components, for 351 00:22:20.210 --> 00:22:23.794 example, for wiring in space. So 352 00:22:23.794 --> 00:22:27.395 this one guy has been doing the same job 353 00:22:27.395 --> 00:22:31.075 for 40 years. Now that immediately should 354 00:22:31.075 --> 00:22:32.455 have hold the alarm bell. 355 00:22:36.040 --> 00:22:39.880 And if he falls over, that part 356 00:22:39.880 --> 00:22:43.715 of the business is gone. And it's not just gone for 357 00:22:43.715 --> 00:22:47.335 now. It's gone forever. But it's not even just about 358 00:22:47.635 --> 00:22:51.020 making the components. This guy weaves these these amazing 359 00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:55.320 cables, I think by Joanne, but he 360 00:22:55.320 --> 00:22:59.105 he weaves them Jo that they can withstand the temperatures in 361 00:22:59.105 --> 00:23:02.405 space because they get used in space. It really is rocket science. 362 00:23:03.105 --> 00:23:06.310 So he weaves these cables, but 363 00:23:06.850 --> 00:23:10.450 because he understands the process, he is 364 00:23:10.450 --> 00:23:13.970 also the only person that knows how to write the tender 365 00:23:13.970 --> 00:23:17.615 form. So when they're looking to win business, they rely on the 366 00:23:17.615 --> 00:23:21.455 sky to write the tender, to understand the market, to put 367 00:23:21.455 --> 00:23:25.070 the business cap. So you take that all all of 368 00:23:25.070 --> 00:23:28.670 that out of that manufacturing business, and it's a 369 00:23:28.670 --> 00:23:32.135 huge hole. And not only that, but 370 00:23:32.135 --> 00:23:35.434 it's, you know, it's a valuable piece of of manufacturing, 371 00:23:35.815 --> 00:23:39.655 the the the ability to to to complete as it which of which is 372 00:23:39.655 --> 00:23:43.460 gone. 1, you know, one of the guys I go 373 00:23:43.460 --> 00:23:47.299 out motorcycling with, he's the same. He's he's a he's an engineer who 374 00:23:47.299 --> 00:23:50.519 has a skill in what they call white meddling, 375 00:23:51.525 --> 00:23:55.365 and it's a dying skill. There's not that much call for it, but 376 00:23:55.365 --> 00:23:58.585 once it's gone, it's gone. And, again, 377 00:23:59.285 --> 00:24:02.940 the the sort of the the the waste of 378 00:24:02.940 --> 00:24:04.480 that is is is criminalized. 379 00:24:09.135 --> 00:24:12.815 Well, I knew a person in my 380 00:24:12.815 --> 00:24:16.335 network, this is probably 10, 15 years ago. And he was 381 00:24:16.335 --> 00:24:20.179 now doing a role completely different. I got to know him one day and 382 00:24:20.179 --> 00:24:22.340 I said, so what have you been doing? He said, well, I used to run 383 00:24:22.340 --> 00:24:25.880 my own multimillion pound manufacturing company supplying 384 00:24:26.179 --> 00:24:29.995 this product into this niche market for years. I was the 385 00:24:29.995 --> 00:24:33.195 only person that made this in the world as a niche product. I said, oh, 386 00:24:33.195 --> 00:24:36.710 what happened to that? He said, well, one of the key components of that 387 00:24:36.710 --> 00:24:40.490 product became obsolete and nobody in the world 388 00:24:40.710 --> 00:24:44.195 manufactured an equivalent component. We spent 5 years r and 389 00:24:44.195 --> 00:24:47.848 d trying to work around this product, this component, see if we Joanne 390 00:24:47.875 --> 00:24:51.440 reinvent it. And what we eventually had to do was say, there's only a 391 00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:55.200 1,000 of these left in the world, and then we we close our business because 392 00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:58.340 they couldn't invent a a word about this this one component. 393 00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:02.585 And that's exactly if you can do that with a component, 394 00:25:03.125 --> 00:25:06.025 we don't see it with a person, don't we? And that's Absolutely. 395 00:25:07.045 --> 00:25:10.860 Yeah. There are r and d teams in electronics, and and they're all looking for 396 00:25:10.860 --> 00:25:14.515 different ways of Yeah. Working around when that transistor or resistors circuit 397 00:25:14.515 --> 00:25:18.275 chip goes out obsolete. We think about that, but we don't think about the people 398 00:25:18.275 --> 00:25:21.335 doing. No. No. And and, you know, 399 00:25:22.120 --> 00:25:25.400 well, one of the other examples I I use, which is not in in such 400 00:25:25.400 --> 00:25:29.000 a sophisticated field, if you think back to the Roman 401 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:31.565