WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.920 --> 00:00:09.575 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the 2 00:00:09.575 --> 00:00:13.335 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number 3 00:00:13.335 --> 00:00:16.775 of amazing people that simply had the conversation around the subject of 4 00:00:16.775 --> 00:00:20.470 inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better place 5 00:00:20.470 --> 00:00:23.990 for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please 6 00:00:23.990 --> 00:00:27.315 do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 7 00:00:29.135 --> 00:00:32.975 That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You can 8 00:00:32.975 --> 00:00:36.430 catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify 9 00:00:36.730 --> 00:00:40.570 and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a 10 00:00:40.570 --> 00:00:44.245 decaf and let's get going. Today 11 00:00:44.304 --> 00:00:47.925 is episode 41 with the title, creating 12 00:00:48.065 --> 00:00:51.765 a level playing field Jo every human can be inspired. 13 00:00:52.670 --> 00:00:55.710 And I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by Mindy 14 00:00:55.710 --> 00:00:59.010 Gibbins-Klein. Mindy describes herself as someone who 15 00:00:59.310 --> 00:01:02.355 encourages people to be more thoughtful in their conversations, 16 00:01:03.295 --> 00:01:07.135 interactions, and the way they show up in the world. When I asked 17 00:01:07.135 --> 00:01:10.750 Mindy to describe her superpower, she said, helping people 18 00:01:10.750 --> 00:01:14.510 hone down their message in a way that makes their heart sing as 19 00:01:14.510 --> 00:01:18.110 well as inspiring others. Hello, Mindy. Welcome to the 20 00:01:18.110 --> 00:01:20.975 show. Hello, Jo. It's great to be here. 21 00:01:22.635 --> 00:01:25.435 We've been looking forward to this for ages. I mean, we've both been busy over 22 00:01:25.435 --> 00:01:29.270 lockdown, getting times in the diary. Finally, we made it. Absolutely, 23 00:01:29.270 --> 00:01:33.110 absolutely thrilled to have you here today. Thank you. So we were talking 24 00:01:33.110 --> 00:01:36.784 earlier just before we started recording about this creating a level playing field so 25 00:01:36.784 --> 00:01:40.165 every human could be inspired. What does that mean to you? 26 00:01:41.024 --> 00:01:44.860 Well, I think most people would recognize the 27 00:01:44.860 --> 00:01:48.480 fact that we don't have a level playing field in various 28 00:01:48.700 --> 00:01:52.140 sectors, in various pockets of society, maybe the world as a 29 00:01:52.140 --> 00:01:55.645 whole. And I just feel that 30 00:01:55.645 --> 00:01:59.325 things could be different. You know? We like to 31 00:01:59.325 --> 00:02:03.170 not only see change happen, we wanna make change happen. And 32 00:02:03.170 --> 00:02:07.010 one of the things that we do here is we look 33 00:02:07.010 --> 00:02:10.370 to inspiration because, we work with a lot of 34 00:02:10.370 --> 00:02:14.195 people who want to inspire others, but they need to feel 35 00:02:14.195 --> 00:02:17.635 inspired. They need to feel that they're going to be given a Joanne, that their 36 00:02:17.635 --> 00:02:21.410 voice is going to be heard. Otherwise, they don't bother. So 37 00:02:21.410 --> 00:02:25.090 it's a real shame when someone has an important message for the world and they 38 00:02:25.090 --> 00:02:28.850 don't share it. And, I'm just looking to create 39 00:02:28.850 --> 00:02:32.175 more opportunities so good people 40 00:02:32.395 --> 00:02:35.755 doing good work can inspire as many people as 41 00:02:35.755 --> 00:02:39.470 possible. That's what we're doing. That's so 42 00:02:39.470 --> 00:02:43.230 true. We often find that when we're talking to people who are from 43 00:02:43.230 --> 00:02:46.775 underrepresented communities, minority faith groups, but even in many 44 00:02:46.775 --> 00:02:50.615 cases, women. We don't feel that we can speak out. We don't feel 45 00:02:50.615 --> 00:02:53.815 like we have a voice. We don't feel like we can be listened to. And 46 00:02:53.815 --> 00:02:57.540 you're so right. That almost de inspires us, doesn't 47 00:02:57.540 --> 00:03:01.300 it? It sort of makes us feel, well, why bother? That's a real challenge 48 00:03:01.300 --> 00:03:04.680 we've gotta overcome. Yeah. That's that's why I do the work I do. 49 00:03:05.405 --> 00:03:09.165 Yeah. And we certainly we certainly noticed it when, I mean, the 50 00:03:09.165 --> 00:03:12.925 George Floyd murder, the Black Lives Matter movement 51 00:03:12.925 --> 00:03:16.430 that developed. We had in the UK, we had the Sarah Sarah 52 00:03:16.430 --> 00:03:20.110 Everard murder, and we've talked about violence about women and 53 00:03:20.110 --> 00:03:23.795 girls is now becoming more prevalent. Do you think that people are 54 00:03:23.795 --> 00:03:27.575 becoming more inspired to speak out than they ever have? 55 00:03:28.595 --> 00:03:32.040 I think, as I say, people will feel 56 00:03:32.099 --> 00:03:35.620 inspired to speak out if they feel that that's gonna 57 00:03:35.620 --> 00:03:39.075 land in a way that that does something. 58 00:03:40.095 --> 00:03:43.935 And plenty of people can speak out nowadays, you know, since the birth of 59 00:03:43.935 --> 00:03:47.775 the Internet. We have millions of blogs. We have millions 60 00:03:47.775 --> 00:03:51.490 of podcasts, you know, millions of live streams. So a lot of 61 00:03:51.490 --> 00:03:54.710 people are speaking out, but it it's about what happens after that. 62 00:03:55.010 --> 00:03:58.835 So, you know, in the work that we do, if somebody wants to be 63 00:03:58.835 --> 00:04:02.515 a speaker, they really want audiences. They don't just wanna 64 00:04:02.515 --> 00:04:06.340 be doing a live stream into a black hole. If they wanna write 65 00:04:06.340 --> 00:04:09.960 a book, they wanna see it published and they wanna see it touch lives. 66 00:04:10.260 --> 00:04:14.105 So I really think that people have to see that level playing field or 67 00:04:14.105 --> 00:04:17.785 see that things are improving. You and I have been in the speaking world a 68 00:04:17.785 --> 00:04:21.209 long time. I used to call people out 69 00:04:21.449 --> 00:04:25.130 when they planned a conference, and it was all, pardon 70 00:04:25.130 --> 00:04:28.889 me, single white men. And, you know, many people 71 00:04:28.889 --> 00:04:32.505 have seen that. And, you know, when I called them on it, the organizers, 72 00:04:32.805 --> 00:04:36.485 they would say, oh, we never even thought. Never occurred to 73 00:04:36.485 --> 00:04:39.980 us. So I don't blame people for things they can't 74 00:04:39.980 --> 00:04:43.600 see. Right? I I you know, there's lots of things I don't see. 75 00:04:43.900 --> 00:04:47.615 But if you see it and you then don't do something 76 00:04:47.675 --> 00:04:51.115 about it, then I'm I'm here to stir things 77 00:04:51.115 --> 00:04:54.650 up. That's what I do. That's a 78 00:04:54.650 --> 00:04:58.350 really insightful statement about we can't change things we don't see. 79 00:04:59.210 --> 00:05:02.725 And that often comes from privilege. We we we look around 80 00:05:03.025 --> 00:05:06.785 our our own echo chamber, our affinity of people 81 00:05:06.785 --> 00:05:10.280 around us because we're mixing with people like us. We're 82 00:05:10.280 --> 00:05:14.120 having conversations that are similar to our own, we often 83 00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:17.935 find that we're not challenged by different thoughts, different viewpoints. And when we're 84 00:05:17.935 --> 00:05:21.775 thinking about, as you said, this conference is having an all white animal or 85 00:05:21.775 --> 00:05:25.074 people call it a Joanne. I heard that's kind of like the term these days. 86 00:05:25.970 --> 00:05:29.810 People just think that's the norm because they've never they've never seen a different 87 00:05:29.810 --> 00:05:33.650 way of doing things. Well, I work in the book world 88 00:05:33.650 --> 00:05:37.305 as you know, and I'm always looking at these lists of 89 00:05:37.305 --> 00:05:40.825 books you must read. And this started a whole 90 00:05:40.825 --> 00:05:44.445 movement. It it changed the direction of both my companies, 91 00:05:44.889 --> 00:05:48.410 and we have a stated mission, which we can talk about later, which 92 00:05:48.410 --> 00:05:52.030 came from seeing that something that wasn't right something wasn't right, 93 00:05:52.254 --> 00:05:55.615 and I wanted to make it right or go somewhere towards making it 94 00:05:55.615 --> 00:05:59.315 right. But I still see these lists coming out, 95 00:05:59.669 --> 00:06:03.050 and the phrase that we use in my companies is this, 96 00:06:03.270 --> 00:06:06.650 left to chance. Some people are not given a chance. 97 00:06:07.255 --> 00:06:11.015 There's different variants. But left to chance, most 98 00:06:11.015 --> 00:06:14.615 people are not given a fair chance. So we 99 00:06:14.615 --> 00:06:18.460 don't really want to see conferences and bookshelves 100 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:23.135 and, you know, the media left a chance. I 101 00:06:23.135 --> 00:06:26.735 see it changing in in the broadcast media in the UK. I don't know 102 00:06:26.735 --> 00:06:30.435 if you watch TV, but I'm I'm inspired and encouraged 103 00:06:30.780 --> 00:06:34.320 by what I've seen. And I don't think it's tokenism. 104 00:06:34.620 --> 00:06:38.400 We can talk about it. I don't I really see high quality, 105 00:06:39.395 --> 00:06:43.155 excellent standards. So it's just they're trying a 106 00:06:43.155 --> 00:06:46.995 bit harder for equity, and that's the word that is driving 107 00:06:46.995 --> 00:06:50.170 me, driving my team insane. 108 00:06:50.710 --> 00:06:54.470 It's driving me to create equity wherever it doesn't 109 00:06:54.470 --> 00:06:58.155 exist. I think that's brilliant. Left a chance, 110 00:06:58.155 --> 00:07:01.275 most people are not given a fair Joanne, and and that's where we think about 111 00:07:01.275 --> 00:07:04.635 allyship, isn't it, where the responsibility of somebody 112 00:07:04.635 --> 00:07:08.320 who isn't of that group, community, 113 00:07:08.620 --> 00:07:12.380 or marginalized characteristic, the allyship is where we pick up 114 00:07:12.380 --> 00:07:15.935 that strain and our role as allies is to amplify, to 115 00:07:15.935 --> 00:07:19.295 spotlight, to create room, to create an opportunity for voice to 116 00:07:19.295 --> 00:07:23.070 occur so that it doesn't become chance. It becomes a 117 00:07:23.070 --> 00:07:26.830 deliberate act. And I always say that inclusion is holistic, active, and 118 00:07:26.830 --> 00:07:30.585 deliberate because if we're not being deliberate, we're not being active about 119 00:07:30.585 --> 00:07:34.105 it, it's chance. As you just said, if it left chance, it doesn't happen. And 120 00:07:34.105 --> 00:07:37.545 I love that quote. I'm gonna I'm gonna I can steal that, but I will 121 00:07:37.545 --> 00:07:41.190 accredit you for it. Steal with pride. Yeah. 122 00:07:41.190 --> 00:07:44.950 I I think so ally I'm I'm really passionate myself about allyship 123 00:07:44.950 --> 00:07:48.685 around that, whether that's around female allyship, whether that's about 124 00:07:48.685 --> 00:07:52.285 LGBT allyship, black allyship, or brown people, or non 125 00:07:52.285 --> 00:07:55.585 white people. Really passionate because you're right. 126 00:07:56.110 --> 00:07:59.789 I've seen a huge shift in the in the content of the BBC. I 127 00:07:59.789 --> 00:08:03.389 I tend to watch the BBC in the UK. I've seen a huge 128 00:08:03.389 --> 00:08:07.194 shift in the type of programs I was watching to mid last night 129 00:08:08.294 --> 00:08:11.895 on how children in the fifties and sixties who are black from the 130 00:08:11.895 --> 00:08:15.430 Caribbean didn't receive the same education. I've seen 131 00:08:15.430 --> 00:08:19.270 one recently around Leanne from Little Mix when she was talking about how she 132 00:08:19.270 --> 00:08:22.775 felt tokenized as a as a as a black girl on the on the crew, 133 00:08:23.255 --> 00:08:26.375 and she didn't have any any black support. It was all white support on the 134 00:08:26.375 --> 00:08:29.995 team. And they really are shining a spot right now on these inequities. 135 00:08:30.535 --> 00:08:34.370 And this, as you say, we don't see it. We can't change it. People just 136 00:08:34.370 --> 00:08:38.210 haven't seen it. And I am seeing the shift in BBC content. I'm seeing 137 00:08:38.210 --> 00:08:42.035 the shift in presenters, the shift in the themes. And, okay, 138 00:08:42.035 --> 00:08:44.915 it's you can you can argue it's not going fast enough or not going far 139 00:08:44.915 --> 00:08:48.355 enough, but I've definitely seen that. For the last 2 years, I've definitely seen the 140 00:08:48.355 --> 00:08:52.120 BBC's editorial and and production as really, really changing. 141 00:08:52.420 --> 00:08:56.100 Yep. That's exactly what I was thinking. I didn't mention the BBC, but that, you 142 00:08:56.100 --> 00:08:59.319 know, they're a they're a shining example for the rest of us. 143 00:09:00.335 --> 00:09:03.055 But we're you know, I see a lot of things on a smaller scale, as 144 00:09:03.055 --> 00:09:06.515 I know you do too. And we we're both inundated 145 00:09:06.575 --> 00:09:10.190 with requests and connections and, you know, information 146 00:09:10.190 --> 00:09:13.870 about events happening here, there, and everywhere. So we have the chance to look at 147 00:09:13.870 --> 00:09:17.394 the smaller events and what's happening more locally 148 00:09:18.255 --> 00:09:22.095 and the things that we can influence as well. I don't 149 00:09:22.095 --> 00:09:25.475 feel I have a particular influence, when it comes to 150 00:09:25.740 --> 00:09:29.280 BBC and, you know, who's reporting and what stories the producers choose. 151 00:09:29.660 --> 00:09:33.360 But I do have influence in lots of other areas. And for our listeners, 152 00:09:33.900 --> 00:09:37.565 you have influence. You may not realize it, but 153 00:09:37.565 --> 00:09:41.185 every interaction, every piece of communication, 154 00:09:42.125 --> 00:09:45.889 every time you open your mouth or type something, you 155 00:09:45.889 --> 00:09:49.670 you are choosing to use your influence. So it's really about choosing 156 00:09:50.130 --> 00:09:53.945 that in a more intelligent not not intelligent way, 157 00:09:53.945 --> 00:09:56.605 emotionally intelligent way. You know what I mean? 158 00:09:58.160 --> 00:10:01.920 But most people don't they just think it's it's not on 159 00:10:01.920 --> 00:10:05.680 their radar. I mean, I I I'm a I'm a DNI specialist. I talk about 160 00:10:05.680 --> 00:10:09.425 this all the time. I find myself sometimes you almost feel like you're 161 00:10:09.425 --> 00:10:12.865 an inclusion bore sometimes or people end up sort of saying, oh, I can't say 162 00:10:12.865 --> 00:10:15.825 that because you'll hear Joanne or that. No, no, you can say what you want, 163 00:10:15.825 --> 00:10:19.649 but just be mindful about what you're saying. If my presence makes you 164 00:10:19.649 --> 00:10:23.490 double think, then that's what I'm doing. I'm not policing you. I'm just making 165 00:10:23.490 --> 00:10:26.610 you think while I'm here. So maybe you should think while I'm not here as 166 00:10:26.610 --> 00:10:30.385 well. But that's that's the challenge. People don't 167 00:10:30.385 --> 00:10:34.145 think consciously around their language, their who 168 00:10:34.145 --> 00:10:37.650 they're excluding or tolerating or not 169 00:10:37.650 --> 00:10:41.490 really embracing. How do we how do we get people 170 00:10:41.490 --> 00:10:45.325 to sort of bring that to the front of their mind more? Because once 171 00:10:45.325 --> 00:10:47.905 you've had a a life changing moment, 172 00:10:49.165 --> 00:10:52.899 maybe an illness, maybe an accident, you suddenly become more self aware of 173 00:10:52.899 --> 00:10:56.519 the space around you. But most people just progress through life 174 00:10:57.459 --> 00:11:00.995 just being them and never considering others in the same way. Well, you 175 00:11:00.995 --> 00:11:04.595 mentioned that you mentioned what happened with George Floyd, and I read about that in 176 00:11:04.595 --> 00:11:08.320 a recent ebook that I've published, which, you know, is 177 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:12.079 absolutely horrendous. And, you know, when I think about 178 00:11:12.079 --> 00:11:15.920 it, I still shudder. However, it did something good. It it, 179 00:11:15.920 --> 00:11:19.345 you know, shone that spotlight, as you were saying. 180 00:11:19.565 --> 00:11:23.165 And I do think it makes people more aware on a on a permanent 181 00:11:23.165 --> 00:11:26.930 basis, maybe not one incident or one story. 182 00:11:27.630 --> 00:11:30.850 But once you once you open the door a crack, 183 00:11:31.470 --> 00:11:35.215 you can then open it a bit more. If it's locked shut, you 184 00:11:35.215 --> 00:11:38.975 can't see anything. And I I think 185 00:11:38.975 --> 00:11:42.815 it's good to help people see things. I think the work that you 186 00:11:42.815 --> 00:11:46.100 do is phenomenal. All of us do ENI specialists. 187 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:49.920 I'm I'm not even one. Why am I including myself? Okay. I've included 188 00:11:49.920 --> 00:11:53.545 myself. But the work I do is in that 189 00:11:53.545 --> 00:11:56.925 area. And what I have noticed is 190 00:11:57.145 --> 00:12:00.185 people are willing when you don't see it, you you don't even know what you're 191 00:12:00.185 --> 00:12:03.780 not seeing, as I said. But if you are thoughtful 192 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:07.840 about the way you bring these things up, you remember your 193 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:10.820 influence, and influence is a privilege, then 194 00:12:11.495 --> 00:12:15.334 you Joanne, in fact, bring people into the conversation. They 195 00:12:15.894 --> 00:12:19.370 I I think most people really do want to be a better 196 00:12:19.370 --> 00:12:22.990 person, you know, do the right thing. 197 00:12:23.690 --> 00:12:27.505 And, you know, I think it's great when some people are role 198 00:12:27.505 --> 00:12:31.185 models or, you know, just showing people the way in a gentle and 199 00:12:31.185 --> 00:12:32.725 thoughtful way with respect. 200 00:12:35.560 --> 00:12:39.260 I mean, I was kind of personally a bit shocked 201 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:43.165 about, yeah, the BAFTAs this year and and what and the and 202 00:12:43.165 --> 00:12:46.845 the revelation about Noel Clark. Because in the past, we've 203 00:12:46.845 --> 00:12:49.345 kind of associated this me too with 204 00:12:50.830 --> 00:12:54.670 older white privileged men. And as 205 00:12:54.670 --> 00:12:58.455 suddenly we've got a young black guy who 206 00:12:58.515 --> 00:13:02.115 is propagating the same things that we thought was really 207 00:13:02.115 --> 00:13:05.910 just just consigned to this the older generation. And I 208 00:13:05.910 --> 00:13:09.670 think that's really woken me up to the world that we've gotta keep being on 209 00:13:09.670 --> 00:13:12.330 top of this. We can't let it slide, can we? 210 00:13:13.345 --> 00:13:17.025 If there's something that you notice in the 211 00:13:17.025 --> 00:13:20.005 world, I'll keep it really broad, really high level, 212 00:13:20.705 --> 00:13:24.280 and it doesn't feel right, and you know it's not right, 213 00:13:25.220 --> 00:13:28.954 and you can do something to make it right or 214 00:13:28.954 --> 00:13:32.795 just to kinda shine that spotlight, then that's 215 00:13:32.795 --> 00:13:36.634 an opportunity. So, you know, I really don't 216 00:13:36.634 --> 00:13:40.089 think that you or I or any individual can 217 00:13:40.089 --> 00:13:43.769 create world peace or end world hunger or any of these massive things. 218 00:13:43.769 --> 00:13:47.425 But it does happen on a personal level with 219 00:13:47.425 --> 00:13:51.265 more people becoming thoughtful, becoming thoughtful leaders, 220 00:13:51.265 --> 00:13:54.709 doing their thing. Others will then see that and 221 00:13:54.709 --> 00:13:57.769 follow. And so each one is a drop in the ocean. 222 00:13:58.310 --> 00:14:01.670 And I I feel inspired by what I 223 00:14:01.670 --> 00:14:05.415 see. And, like yourself, I will always 224 00:14:05.415 --> 00:14:09.095 bring something up in conversation that, you know, makes people's 225 00:14:09.095 --> 00:14:12.900 eyes roll or whatever. But until we have that level playing 226 00:14:12.900 --> 00:14:16.520 field, that's what we need to do. The funny thing, though, 227 00:14:16.740 --> 00:14:20.315 is how threatened some people feel. Because when 228 00:14:20.315 --> 00:14:23.535 I've called out these creators of the book lists, 229 00:14:24.315 --> 00:14:27.675 and said, how come there's 38 men on this list 230 00:14:27.675 --> 00:14:31.450 and 37 of them are white, in fact? They get 231 00:14:31.450 --> 00:14:35.209 defensive. And, in the comments, you know, I'll get haters 232 00:14:35.209 --> 00:14:39.045 saying, well, you know, what about us? And, 233 00:14:39.825 --> 00:14:43.425 you know, I just say, well, you've had 200 years of white privilege. You know, 234 00:14:43.425 --> 00:14:46.970 come on. That's so true. 235 00:14:48.150 --> 00:14:51.290 People are afraid to give ground and 236 00:14:52.630 --> 00:14:56.464 it's not about ceding privilege. It's not about giving ground. It's not 237 00:14:56.464 --> 00:15:00.305 about losing anything. It's about winning by everybody else getting 238 00:15:00.305 --> 00:15:03.825 more. That doesn't mean you can say you get less. The old saying goes, it's 239 00:15:03.825 --> 00:15:07.550 not pie. It's just about creating more space, 240 00:15:07.550 --> 00:15:10.850 not taking your space. And it should cost you nothing 241 00:15:11.709 --> 00:15:15.485 to embrace and amplify somebody. It shouldn't cost you 242 00:15:15.485 --> 00:15:19.324 nothing to to think about somebody else's needs and feelings. It costs you 243 00:15:19.324 --> 00:15:22.144 nothing to to accept someone else's identity, 244 00:15:23.210 --> 00:15:26.890 language, or however they wish to describe it. It doesn't cost you anything. People 245 00:15:26.890 --> 00:15:30.430 feel that that they've got a it's challenging their own rights. 246 00:15:30.845 --> 00:15:34.685 We just we've gotta really change the attitude, but it's not about changing your rights. 247 00:15:34.685 --> 00:15:38.525 It's about giving people more access, more opportunity, less 248 00:15:38.525 --> 00:15:42.270 chance as you put it. So looking out for 249 00:15:42.270 --> 00:15:45.790 those opportunities. You know? If you don't see 250 00:15:45.790 --> 00:15:49.490 it, don't blame yourself for not seeing something. Again, 251 00:15:49.855 --> 00:15:53.455 what can you do to get out of the echo echo chamber a little 252 00:15:53.455 --> 00:15:57.295 bit? You know, I must admit, I like hanging around with people 253 00:15:57.295 --> 00:16:00.910 like me. However, there are so many different aspects 254 00:16:00.910 --> 00:16:04.450 to me that I can usually find a very diverse 255 00:16:04.510 --> 00:16:07.955 group of people to talk to, to hang out with. 256 00:16:08.435 --> 00:16:12.115 It's you know, that's one of the things that I've started doing personally. If this 257 00:16:12.115 --> 00:16:15.715 can help anyone, great, because, you will 258 00:16:15.715 --> 00:16:19.350 always gravitate towards people who make you feel good, people you have 259 00:16:19.350 --> 00:16:22.710 things in common with. But think about all the different aspects of 260 00:16:22.710 --> 00:16:26.515 yourself, your personality, your background, where you've traveled, 261 00:16:26.575 --> 00:16:29.935 your interests. So not just what you look like, your race, your 262 00:16:29.935 --> 00:16:33.770 gender, you know, lots and lots of things. And then by definition, 263 00:16:34.630 --> 00:16:38.310 you will be associating with people from lots of diverse 264 00:16:38.310 --> 00:16:42.150 groups. If for example, you know, 265 00:16:42.150 --> 00:16:45.815 I I love Avatar, the film, 266 00:16:45.815 --> 00:16:49.575 and that's why, you know, I could watch that every day 267 00:16:49.575 --> 00:16:53.200 of my life. And when I find another Avatar fan, I 268 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:56.640 don't think, oh, hang on. She's not a white gal like me. I don't 269 00:16:57.040 --> 00:17:00.405 that would never occur to me. I just know that there's a kindred spirit 270 00:17:00.405 --> 00:17:03.845 there. Jo, and and yeah, you can get into all of all of 271 00:17:03.845 --> 00:17:07.680 Mindy's, favorite films and books 272 00:17:07.840 --> 00:17:11.540 and foods and yeah. So that's the kind of way that you can diversify 273 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:14.980 yourself and, and your associations. 274 00:17:17.275 --> 00:17:20.395 As I was just to tell, I mean, I actually before I say, I I 275 00:17:20.395 --> 00:17:23.595 quite like Avatar. I think it's a beautiful film. There's so many different dimension so 276 00:17:23.595 --> 00:17:27.250 many different dimensions to it. And 277 00:17:27.250 --> 00:17:31.010 just the the romance, the the hate and stuff that's going 278 00:17:31.010 --> 00:17:34.365 on in there as well and the sort of the factions and and because they're 279 00:17:34.365 --> 00:17:38.205 they're they're blue creatures from another world, you can address this 280 00:17:38.205 --> 00:17:41.425 kind of racism effectively in that film 281 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:45.880 when it's not not threatening anybody because nobody's identifying with the goodies or the 282 00:17:45.880 --> 00:17:49.434 baddies, really. They're just but they can see what's going on and 283 00:17:49.434 --> 00:17:53.195 how really it's all about love winning out, opportunity bringing it out, 284 00:17:53.195 --> 00:17:56.235 and just living peacefully. We don't need to create a conflict. So, no, I I 285 00:17:56.235 --> 00:17:59.580 agree. I think it's I think it's a great hidden message in there that maybe 286 00:17:59.580 --> 00:18:02.240 not everybody sees through to, but it is fantastic. 287 00:18:03.980 --> 00:18:07.735 But, yeah, I forgot what I was gonna say now. Diversity, yes. 288 00:18:08.695 --> 00:18:11.514 I agree. I'm 289 00:18:13.095 --> 00:18:16.610 in my mid fifties. I've had a fairly broad 290 00:18:16.610 --> 00:18:20.290 experience in my life. I've traveled the world a lot. I know you have to 291 00:18:20.370 --> 00:18:23.350 I've got involved many things. I've had several careers. I've had 292 00:18:24.784 --> 00:18:28.385 several careers and a couple of agendas. So I've I've had extra 293 00:18:28.385 --> 00:18:32.065 dimensions in that. So I I do find that I when I talk to people 294 00:18:32.065 --> 00:18:35.800 who you would believe weren't like me, actually, there's 295 00:18:35.800 --> 00:18:39.560 so many things we can find in common. And it's just a case of just 296 00:18:39.560 --> 00:18:43.225 keep probing, keep probing, keep asking. Okay. Right now, we've got it. We both 297 00:18:43.225 --> 00:18:46.825 like this. We both have done this. We've and we we often don't spend enough 298 00:18:46.825 --> 00:18:50.505 time finding out what makes us similar, do we? That's the 299 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:54.160 I mean, I often use it as an icebreaker. Find out something you have in 300 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:57.920 common with the person in in your pair, find that's that 301 00:18:57.920 --> 00:19:01.535 you both like. But we how often do we sit and have that conversation? We 302 00:19:01.535 --> 00:19:05.054 go straight into, we'd we'd we both have a opposing opinion on 303 00:19:05.054 --> 00:19:08.870 this. Let's get stuck on it. You're right. You're 304 00:19:08.870 --> 00:19:12.710 right about that. I think it is we're gonna use one of 305 00:19:12.710 --> 00:19:16.375 my favorite words now, which is intention. That it that 306 00:19:16.375 --> 00:19:19.995 is where it all starts. I write and speak about it all the time. 307 00:19:20.215 --> 00:19:22.155 We oh, how exciting. 308 00:19:24.220 --> 00:19:27.980 Somebody believed And the ice cream ice cream ad. I 309 00:19:27.980 --> 00:19:31.360 have, a real passion for people 310 00:19:31.804 --> 00:19:35.644 behaving in an intentional way. And it goes back to what 311 00:19:35.644 --> 00:19:39.419 I was saying about us not always remembering the 312 00:19:39.419 --> 00:19:42.940 power we have to choose to choose what our 313 00:19:42.940 --> 00:19:46.460 intention is and then act on that. And so if you go into an 314 00:19:46.460 --> 00:19:50.294 interaction with that question in your mind, what 315 00:19:50.294 --> 00:19:54.054 do we have in common, you will find things. So I 316 00:19:54.054 --> 00:19:57.820 I think this is easier than most people think. I don't know about you, Jo. 317 00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:02.600 Yeah. Jo. Completely. I mean, we we had a conversation just before we push press 318 00:20:02.600 --> 00:20:06.075 record, and it turns out you you were well, still 319 00:20:06.075 --> 00:20:09.835 are a gold card holder for certain airlines. And I said, well, actually, I 320 00:20:09.835 --> 00:20:13.340 was a gold card holder for certain airlines as well. And we lounge 321 00:20:13.340 --> 00:20:16.700 passes and all that. So suddenly, just by the fact we traveled a 322 00:20:16.700 --> 00:20:20.460 lot, we have a similar kind of gold card experience, if you 323 00:20:20.460 --> 00:20:23.865 like, and that we wouldn't have known that without that that brief 324 00:20:23.865 --> 00:20:26.904 conversation about, you know, what we've been doing for the last 12 months and some 325 00:20:26.904 --> 00:20:30.450 of the frustrations of airports. But you you do realize we've just 326 00:20:30.450 --> 00:20:34.290 alienated all of the, you know, carbon folks who are thinking, 327 00:20:34.290 --> 00:20:35.830 oh, you're adding to the problem. 328 00:20:38.065 --> 00:20:41.184 I I I haven't had a gold calf for 20 years. Well, it's so It 329 00:20:41.184 --> 00:20:44.690 was trendy back then. Yeah. Don't tell Greta. If Greta hears, then 330 00:20:44.690 --> 00:20:48.450 it's just I'm one of the baddies, yes. But no, I agree. 331 00:20:48.450 --> 00:20:51.750 We've learned. I mean, in the same way we were talking just now about 332 00:20:52.945 --> 00:20:56.245 if we don't know, we can't change. We didn't know about 333 00:20:56.545 --> 00:21:00.385 carbon. We didn't know about plastics. We were just blind to it 334 00:21:00.385 --> 00:21:04.050 because it wasn't a conversation people were having Or if they were, 335 00:21:04.050 --> 00:21:06.530 we weren't listening or it wasn't being said in a way we could hear it. 336 00:21:06.530 --> 00:21:10.210 And there's a whole load of things that we're probably still doing that we'll learn 337 00:21:10.210 --> 00:21:13.455 in the years to come that we should have done. And that's that's about trying 338 00:21:13.455 --> 00:21:17.155 to be waking up to everything, isn't it? Yeah. And and I think 339 00:21:17.535 --> 00:21:21.340 the awareness and the willingness to say, hey. I don't always 340 00:21:21.340 --> 00:21:24.940 get it right. In fact, lots of times I get it wrong. Here's here's my 341 00:21:24.940 --> 00:21:28.615 mistake or error of judgment. Here's how I want to put 342 00:21:28.615 --> 00:21:32.295 it right. And so if you don't mind, I'll apologize right 343 00:21:32.295 --> 00:21:35.355 now for using the word insane about 10 minutes ago. 344 00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:39.500 You maybe heard me hesitate before I said it, and there were 3 345 00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:43.159 similar words I could have used, all insulting in a mental health 346 00:21:43.159 --> 00:21:46.684 sense. Jo, no, I'm really aiming to become more self 347 00:21:46.684 --> 00:21:50.524 aware and more thoughtful about these things. But, you know, we're gonna put a 348 00:21:50.524 --> 00:21:54.190 foot wrong. We're we're human. And that's what it's all about 349 00:21:54.190 --> 00:21:57.330 is, you know, acknowledge your humanity and and 350 00:21:57.950 --> 00:22:01.410 celebrate and give yourself a pat on the back every time 351 00:22:02.154 --> 00:22:05.914 you choose to behave in a more resourceful way. 352 00:22:05.914 --> 00:22:09.750 That's the best way I can put it. Every time you do something that 353 00:22:09.750 --> 00:22:12.990 is heading in in the way you want to be living your life, whatever that 354 00:22:12.990 --> 00:22:16.610 is, you know, more thoughtful, more caring, more inclusive, 355 00:22:17.150 --> 00:22:20.785 more generous, whatever, Just recognize that and give 356 00:22:20.785 --> 00:22:22.165 yourself that pat on the back. 357 00:22:24.625 --> 00:22:28.390 Yeah. Completely. And I I think we're setting ourselves 358 00:22:28.390 --> 00:22:32.070 an unwinnable target if we think we have to be right first time 359 00:22:32.070 --> 00:22:35.590 every time. It's about learning. It's about making mistakes. It's 360 00:22:35.590 --> 00:22:39.355 about, I also say, it's about being accountable. So if I know I've made 361 00:22:39.355 --> 00:22:43.054 a mistake, I apologize. I acknowledge it. I 362 00:22:43.380 --> 00:22:47.220 put that right rather than pushing it away saying, oh, don't oh, 363 00:22:47.220 --> 00:22:50.900 come on. Are you joking? Doesn't matter? It does matter to 364 00:22:50.900 --> 00:22:54.715 people. And in the same way that I've I've learned those certain words or 365 00:22:54.715 --> 00:22:58.155 phrases that people many people 366 00:22:58.155 --> 00:23:02.000 believe or or feel are racist. And 367 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:05.440 I've looked up entomology, and I find some of the 368 00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:08.915 definitions questionable whether it is or isn't. But rather than 369 00:23:08.915 --> 00:23:12.275 argue with somebody about whether something is or isn't racist, I I say to 370 00:23:12.275 --> 00:23:16.115 myself, you feel it is. I I don't need to argue about 371 00:23:16.115 --> 00:23:19.270 that. I could I could use a different word or phrase. It doesn't it doesn't 372 00:23:19.270 --> 00:23:23.110 cost me anything to adopt my language. I don't need to argue 373 00:23:23.110 --> 00:23:26.805 whether it is or isn't racist. I just accept it is for you, 374 00:23:26.885 --> 00:23:30.005 in which case I will never use that phrase again. And I in the same 375 00:23:30.005 --> 00:23:33.685 way that because you care. That's because you care enough to do it. 376 00:23:33.685 --> 00:23:37.430 And so, you know, having the intention to care, having 377 00:23:37.430 --> 00:23:40.970 the intention to, you know, behave in this thoughtful and resourceful 378 00:23:41.030 --> 00:23:44.755 way, It's wonderful when people are 379 00:23:44.755 --> 00:23:48.515 enlightened like yourself and they care enough. And so we're 380 00:23:48.515 --> 00:23:51.990 here doing this work to open the doors. I say to 381 00:23:51.990 --> 00:23:54.809 enlighten, not that we're enlightened, 382 00:23:55.669 --> 00:23:59.415 but we're enlightening. And that's the work that that needs to be 383 00:23:59.415 --> 00:24:02.955 done. Right? Open the door and more light will come in. 384 00:24:03.335 --> 00:24:06.929 There was there was a real, fantastic 385 00:24:07.149 --> 00:24:10.990 quote I've just finished reading Daring Greatly by 386 00:24:10.990 --> 00:24:14.525 Brene Brown. And one of the 387 00:24:14.525 --> 00:24:18.365 quotes that I highlighted was I'm gonna paraphrase if I don't get it 388 00:24:18.365 --> 00:24:22.110 right, but we we need to 389 00:24:22.110 --> 00:24:25.730 appreciate the cracks. That's how the light gets in. 390 00:24:26.590 --> 00:24:30.165 I love that. Yeah. You know, we're not perfect. No. That's that's 391 00:24:30.565 --> 00:24:33.684 yeah. No. We're not perfect. I I also learned about, 392 00:24:34.405 --> 00:24:37.970 the indigenous people from Northern Canada and that part of the 393 00:24:37.970 --> 00:24:41.190 world and the term I used for years 394 00:24:42.290 --> 00:24:46.095 was offensive and it meant eat war fish or something. It was kind 395 00:24:46.095 --> 00:24:49.855 of a really stereotyping word and 396 00:24:49.855 --> 00:24:53.550 I've learned the new word Inuit is I think which is the the name we 397 00:24:53.550 --> 00:24:57.310 use now. I'm very conscious about making sure that I retrain 398 00:24:57.310 --> 00:25:00.925 my brain every time I want to use the old Lockwood, Remember 399 00:25:00.925 --> 00:25:04.545 the meaning, remember how insulting it is, remember how stereotyping it is, 400 00:25:04.925 --> 00:25:08.685 and choose the choose the name that they describe themselves by, that they 401 00:25:08.685 --> 00:25:12.330