Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number
Joanne Lockwood: of amazing people that simply had the conversation around the subject of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better place
Joanne Lockwood: for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please
Joanne Lockwood: do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You can
Joanne Lockwood: catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify
Joanne Lockwood: and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a
Joanne Lockwood: decaf and let's get going. Today
Joanne Lockwood: is episode 41 with the title, creating
Joanne Lockwood: a level playing field Jo every human can be inspired.
Joanne Lockwood: And I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by Mindy
Joanne Lockwood: Gibbins-Klein. Mindy describes herself as someone who
Joanne Lockwood: encourages people to be more thoughtful in their conversations,
Joanne Lockwood: interactions, and the way they show up in the world. When I asked
Joanne Lockwood: Mindy to describe her superpower, she said, helping people
Joanne Lockwood: hone down their message in a way that makes their heart sing as
Joanne Lockwood: well as inspiring others. Hello, Mindy. Welcome to the
Joanne Lockwood: show. Hello, Jo. It's great to be here.
Joanne Lockwood: We've been looking forward to this for ages. I mean, we've both been busy over
Joanne Lockwood: lockdown, getting times in the diary. Finally, we made it. Absolutely,
Joanne Lockwood: absolutely thrilled to have you here today. Thank you. So we were talking
Joanne Lockwood: earlier just before we started recording about this creating a level playing field so
Joanne Lockwood: every human could be inspired. What does that mean to you?
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: Well, I think most people would recognize the
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: fact that we don't have a level playing field in various
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: sectors, in various pockets of society, maybe the world as a
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: whole. And I just feel that
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: things could be different. You know? We like to
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: not only see change happen, we wanna make change happen. And
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: one of the things that we do here is we look
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: to inspiration because, we work with a lot of
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: people who want to inspire others, but they need to feel
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: inspired. They need to feel that they're going to be given a Joanne, that their
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: voice is going to be heard. Otherwise, they don't bother. So
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: it's a real shame when someone has an important message for the world and they
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: don't share it. And, I'm just looking to create
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: more opportunities so good people
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: doing good work can inspire as many people as
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: possible. That's what we're doing. That's so
Joanne Lockwood: true. We often find that when we're talking to people who are from
Joanne Lockwood: underrepresented communities, minority faith groups, but even in many
Joanne Lockwood: cases, women. We don't feel that we can speak out. We don't feel
Joanne Lockwood: like we have a voice. We don't feel like we can be listened to. And
Joanne Lockwood: you're so right. That almost de inspires us, doesn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? It sort of makes us feel, well, why bother? That's a real challenge
Joanne Lockwood: we've gotta overcome. Yeah. That's that's why I do the work I do.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And we certainly we certainly noticed it when, I mean, the
Joanne Lockwood: George Floyd murder, the Black Lives Matter movement
Joanne Lockwood: that developed. We had in the UK, we had the Sarah Sarah
Joanne Lockwood: Everard murder, and we've talked about violence about women and
Joanne Lockwood: girls is now becoming more prevalent. Do you think that people are
Joanne Lockwood: becoming more inspired to speak out than they ever have?
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: I think, as I say, people will feel
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: inspired to speak out if they feel that that's gonna
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: land in a way that that does something.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: And plenty of people can speak out nowadays, you know, since the birth of
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: the Internet. We have millions of blogs. We have millions
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: of podcasts, you know, millions of live streams. So a lot of
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: people are speaking out, but it it's about what happens after that.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: So, you know, in the work that we do, if somebody wants to be
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: a speaker, they really want audiences. They don't just wanna
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: be doing a live stream into a black hole. If they wanna write
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: a book, they wanna see it published and they wanna see it touch lives.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: So I really think that people have to see that level playing field or
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: see that things are improving. You and I have been in the speaking world a
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: long time. I used to call people out
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: when they planned a conference, and it was all, pardon
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: me, single white men. And, you know, many people
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: have seen that. And, you know, when I called them on it, the organizers,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: they would say, oh, we never even thought. Never occurred to
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: us. So I don't blame people for things they can't
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: see. Right? I I you know, there's lots of things I don't see.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: But if you see it and you then don't do something
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: about it, then I'm I'm here to stir things
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: up. That's what I do. That's a
Joanne Lockwood: really insightful statement about we can't change things we don't see.
Joanne Lockwood: And that often comes from privilege. We we we look around
Joanne Lockwood: our our own echo chamber, our affinity of people
Joanne Lockwood: around us because we're mixing with people like us. We're
Joanne Lockwood: having conversations that are similar to our own, we often
Joanne Lockwood: find that we're not challenged by different thoughts, different viewpoints. And when we're
Joanne Lockwood: thinking about, as you said, this conference is having an all white animal or
Joanne Lockwood: people call it a Joanne. I heard that's kind of like the term these days.
Joanne Lockwood: People just think that's the norm because they've never they've never seen a different
Joanne Lockwood: way of doing things. Well, I work in the book world
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: as you know, and I'm always looking at these lists of
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: books you must read. And this started a whole
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: movement. It it changed the direction of both my companies,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and we have a stated mission, which we can talk about later, which
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: came from seeing that something that wasn't right something wasn't right,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and I wanted to make it right or go somewhere towards making it
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: right. But I still see these lists coming out,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and the phrase that we use in my companies is this,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: left to chance. Some people are not given a chance.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: There's different variants. But left to chance, most
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: people are not given a fair chance. So we
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: don't really want to see conferences and bookshelves
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and, you know, the media left a chance. I
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: see it changing in in the broadcast media in the UK. I don't know
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: if you watch TV, but I'm I'm inspired and encouraged
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: by what I've seen. And I don't think it's tokenism.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: We can talk about it. I don't I really see high quality,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: excellent standards. So it's just they're trying a
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: bit harder for equity, and that's the word that is driving
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: me, driving my team insane.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: It's driving me to create equity wherever it doesn't
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: exist. I think that's brilliant. Left a chance,
Joanne Lockwood: most people are not given a fair Joanne, and and that's where we think about
Joanne Lockwood: allyship, isn't it, where the responsibility of somebody
Joanne Lockwood: who isn't of that group, community,
Joanne Lockwood: or marginalized characteristic, the allyship is where we pick up
Joanne Lockwood: that strain and our role as allies is to amplify, to
Joanne Lockwood: spotlight, to create room, to create an opportunity for voice to
Joanne Lockwood: occur so that it doesn't become chance. It becomes a
Joanne Lockwood: deliberate act. And I always say that inclusion is holistic, active, and
Joanne Lockwood: deliberate because if we're not being deliberate, we're not being active about
Joanne Lockwood: it, it's chance. As you just said, if it left chance, it doesn't happen. And
Joanne Lockwood: I love that quote. I'm gonna I'm gonna I can steal that, but I will
Joanne Lockwood: accredit you for it. Steal with pride. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I I think so ally I'm I'm really passionate myself about allyship
Joanne Lockwood: around that, whether that's around female allyship, whether that's about
Joanne Lockwood: LGBT allyship, black allyship, or brown people, or non
Joanne Lockwood: white people. Really passionate because you're right.
Joanne Lockwood: I've seen a huge shift in the in the content of the BBC. I
Joanne Lockwood: I tend to watch the BBC in the UK. I've seen a huge
Joanne Lockwood: shift in the type of programs I was watching to mid last night
Joanne Lockwood: on how children in the fifties and sixties who are black from the
Joanne Lockwood: Caribbean didn't receive the same education. I've seen
Joanne Lockwood: one recently around Leanne from Little Mix when she was talking about how she
Joanne Lockwood: felt tokenized as a as a as a black girl on the on the crew,
Joanne Lockwood: and she didn't have any any black support. It was all white support on the
Joanne Lockwood: team. And they really are shining a spot right now on these inequities.
Joanne Lockwood: And this, as you say, we don't see it. We can't change it. People just
Joanne Lockwood: haven't seen it. And I am seeing the shift in BBC content. I'm seeing
Joanne Lockwood: the shift in presenters, the shift in the themes. And, okay,
Joanne Lockwood: it's you can you can argue it's not going fast enough or not going far
Joanne Lockwood: enough, but I've definitely seen that. For the last 2 years, I've definitely seen the
Joanne Lockwood: BBC's editorial and and production as really, really changing.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: Yep. That's exactly what I was thinking. I didn't mention the BBC, but that, you
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: know, they're a they're a shining example for the rest of us.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: But we're you know, I see a lot of things on a smaller scale, as
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: I know you do too. And we we're both inundated
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: with requests and connections and, you know, information
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: about events happening here, there, and everywhere. So we have the chance to look at
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: the smaller events and what's happening more locally
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and the things that we can influence as well. I don't
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: feel I have a particular influence, when it comes to
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: BBC and, you know, who's reporting and what stories the producers choose.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: But I do have influence in lots of other areas. And for our listeners,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: you have influence. You may not realize it, but
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: every interaction, every piece of communication,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: every time you open your mouth or type something, you
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: you are choosing to use your influence. So it's really about choosing
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: that in a more intelligent not not intelligent way,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: emotionally intelligent way. You know what I mean?
Joanne Lockwood: But most people don't they just think it's it's not on
Joanne Lockwood: their radar. I mean, I I I'm a I'm a DNI specialist. I talk about
Joanne Lockwood: this all the time. I find myself sometimes you almost feel like you're
Joanne Lockwood: an inclusion bore sometimes or people end up sort of saying, oh, I can't say
Joanne Lockwood: that because you'll hear Joanne or that. No, no, you can say what you want,
Joanne Lockwood: but just be mindful about what you're saying. If my presence makes you
Joanne Lockwood: double think, then that's what I'm doing. I'm not policing you. I'm just making
Joanne Lockwood: you think while I'm here. So maybe you should think while I'm not here as
Joanne Lockwood: well. But that's that's the challenge. People don't
Joanne Lockwood: think consciously around their language, their who
Joanne Lockwood: they're excluding or tolerating or not
Joanne Lockwood: really embracing. How do we how do we get people
Joanne Lockwood: to sort of bring that to the front of their mind more? Because once
Joanne Lockwood: you've had a a life changing moment,
Joanne Lockwood: maybe an illness, maybe an accident, you suddenly become more self aware of
Joanne Lockwood: the space around you. But most people just progress through life
Joanne Lockwood: just being them and never considering others in the same way. Well, you
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: mentioned that you mentioned what happened with George Floyd, and I read about that in
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: a recent ebook that I've published, which, you know, is
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: absolutely horrendous. And, you know, when I think about
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: it, I still shudder. However, it did something good. It it,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: you know, shone that spotlight, as you were saying.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: And I do think it makes people more aware on a on a permanent
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: basis, maybe not one incident or one story.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: But once you once you open the door a crack,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: you can then open it a bit more. If it's locked shut, you
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: can't see anything. And I I think
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: it's good to help people see things. I think the work that you
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: do is phenomenal. All of us do ENI specialists.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: I'm I'm not even one. Why am I including myself? Okay. I've included
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: myself. But the work I do is in that
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: area. And what I have noticed is
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: people are willing when you don't see it, you you don't even know what you're
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: not seeing, as I said. But if you are thoughtful
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: about the way you bring these things up, you remember your
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: influence, and influence is a privilege, then
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: you Joanne, in fact, bring people into the conversation. They
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: I I think most people really do want to be a better
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: person, you know, do the right thing.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: And, you know, I think it's great when some people are role
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: models or, you know, just showing people the way in a gentle and
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: thoughtful way with respect.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, I was kind of personally a bit shocked
Joanne Lockwood: about, yeah, the BAFTAs this year and and what and the and
Joanne Lockwood: the revelation about Noel Clark. Because in the past, we've
Joanne Lockwood: kind of associated this me too with
Joanne Lockwood: older white privileged men. And as
Joanne Lockwood: suddenly we've got a young black guy who
Joanne Lockwood: is propagating the same things that we thought was really
Joanne Lockwood: just just consigned to this the older generation. And I
Joanne Lockwood: think that's really woken me up to the world that we've gotta keep being on
Joanne Lockwood: top of this. We can't let it slide, can we?
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: If there's something that you notice in the
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: world, I'll keep it really broad, really high level,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and it doesn't feel right, and you know it's not right,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and you can do something to make it right or
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: just to kinda shine that spotlight, then that's
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: an opportunity. So, you know, I really don't
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: think that you or I or any individual can
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: create world peace or end world hunger or any of these massive things.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: But it does happen on a personal level with
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: more people becoming thoughtful, becoming thoughtful leaders,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: doing their thing. Others will then see that and
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: follow. And so each one is a drop in the ocean.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: And I I feel inspired by what I
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: see. And, like yourself, I will always
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: bring something up in conversation that, you know, makes people's
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: eyes roll or whatever. But until we have that level playing
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: field, that's what we need to do. The funny thing, though,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: is how threatened some people feel. Because when
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: I've called out these creators of the book lists,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and said, how come there's 38 men on this list
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and 37 of them are white, in fact? They get
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: defensive. And, in the comments, you know, I'll get haters
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: saying, well, you know, what about us? And,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: you know, I just say, well, you've had 200 years of white privilege. You know,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: come on. That's so true.
Joanne Lockwood: People are afraid to give ground and
Joanne Lockwood: it's not about ceding privilege. It's not about giving ground. It's not
Joanne Lockwood: about losing anything. It's about winning by everybody else getting
Joanne Lockwood: more. That doesn't mean you can say you get less. The old saying goes, it's
Joanne Lockwood: not pie. It's just about creating more space,
Joanne Lockwood: not taking your space. And it should cost you nothing
Joanne Lockwood: to embrace and amplify somebody. It shouldn't cost you
Joanne Lockwood: nothing to to think about somebody else's needs and feelings. It costs you
Joanne Lockwood: nothing to to accept someone else's identity,
Joanne Lockwood: language, or however they wish to describe it. It doesn't cost you anything. People
Joanne Lockwood: feel that that they've got a it's challenging their own rights.
Joanne Lockwood: We just we've gotta really change the attitude, but it's not about changing your rights.
Joanne Lockwood: It's about giving people more access, more opportunity, less
Joanne Lockwood: chance as you put it. So looking out for
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: those opportunities. You know? If you don't see
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: it, don't blame yourself for not seeing something. Again,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: what can you do to get out of the echo echo chamber a little
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: bit? You know, I must admit, I like hanging around with people
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: like me. However, there are so many different aspects
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: to me that I can usually find a very diverse
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: group of people to talk to, to hang out with.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: It's you know, that's one of the things that I've started doing personally. If this
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: can help anyone, great, because, you will
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: always gravitate towards people who make you feel good, people you have
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: things in common with. But think about all the different aspects of
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: yourself, your personality, your background, where you've traveled,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: your interests. So not just what you look like, your race, your
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: gender, you know, lots and lots of things. And then by definition,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: you will be associating with people from lots of diverse
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: groups. If for example, you know,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: I I love Avatar, the film,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and that's why, you know, I could watch that every day
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: of my life. And when I find another Avatar fan, I
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: don't think, oh, hang on. She's not a white gal like me. I don't
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: that would never occur to me. I just know that there's a kindred spirit
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: there. Jo, and and yeah, you can get into all of all of
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: Mindy's, favorite films and books
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and foods and yeah. So that's the kind of way that you can diversify
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: yourself and, and your associations.
Joanne Lockwood: As I was just to tell, I mean, I actually before I say, I I
Joanne Lockwood: quite like Avatar. I think it's a beautiful film. There's so many different dimension so
Joanne Lockwood: many different dimensions to it. And
Joanne Lockwood: just the the romance, the the hate and stuff that's going
Joanne Lockwood: on in there as well and the sort of the factions and and because they're
Joanne Lockwood: they're they're blue creatures from another world, you can address this
Joanne Lockwood: kind of racism effectively in that film
Joanne Lockwood: when it's not not threatening anybody because nobody's identifying with the goodies or the
Joanne Lockwood: baddies, really. They're just but they can see what's going on and
Joanne Lockwood: how really it's all about love winning out, opportunity bringing it out,
Joanne Lockwood: and just living peacefully. We don't need to create a conflict. So, no, I I
Joanne Lockwood: agree. I think it's I think it's a great hidden message in there that maybe
Joanne Lockwood: not everybody sees through to, but it is fantastic.
Joanne Lockwood: But, yeah, I forgot what I was gonna say now. Diversity, yes.
Joanne Lockwood: I agree. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: in my mid fifties. I've had a fairly broad
Joanne Lockwood: experience in my life. I've traveled the world a lot. I know you have to
Joanne Lockwood: I've got involved many things. I've had several careers. I've had
Joanne Lockwood: several careers and a couple of agendas. So I've I've had extra
Joanne Lockwood: dimensions in that. So I I do find that I when I talk to people
Joanne Lockwood: who you would believe weren't like me, actually, there's
Joanne Lockwood: so many things we can find in common. And it's just a case of just
Joanne Lockwood: keep probing, keep probing, keep asking. Okay. Right now, we've got it. We both
Joanne Lockwood: like this. We both have done this. We've and we we often don't spend enough
Joanne Lockwood: time finding out what makes us similar, do we? That's the
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, I often use it as an icebreaker. Find out something you have in
Joanne Lockwood: common with the person in in your pair, find that's that
Joanne Lockwood: you both like. But we how often do we sit and have that conversation? We
Joanne Lockwood: go straight into, we'd we'd we both have a opposing opinion on
Joanne Lockwood: this. Let's get stuck on it. You're right. You're
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: right about that. I think it is we're gonna use one of
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: my favorite words now, which is intention. That it that
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: is where it all starts. I write and speak about it all the time.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: We oh, how exciting.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: Somebody believed And the ice cream ice cream ad. I
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: have, a real passion for people
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: behaving in an intentional way. And it goes back to what
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: I was saying about us not always remembering the
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: power we have to choose to choose what our
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: intention is and then act on that. And so if you go into an
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: interaction with that question in your mind, what
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: do we have in common, you will find things. So I
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: I think this is easier than most people think. I don't know about you, Jo.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Jo. Completely. I mean, we we had a conversation just before we push press
Joanne Lockwood: record, and it turns out you you were well, still
Joanne Lockwood: are a gold card holder for certain airlines. And I said, well, actually, I
Joanne Lockwood: was a gold card holder for certain airlines as well. And we lounge
Joanne Lockwood: passes and all that. So suddenly, just by the fact we traveled a
Joanne Lockwood: lot, we have a similar kind of gold card experience, if you
Joanne Lockwood: like, and that we wouldn't have known that without that that brief
Joanne Lockwood: conversation about, you know, what we've been doing for the last 12 months and some
Joanne Lockwood: of the frustrations of airports. But you you do realize we've just
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: alienated all of the, you know, carbon folks who are thinking,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: oh, you're adding to the problem.
Joanne Lockwood: I I I haven't had a gold calf for 20 years. Well, it's so It
Joanne Lockwood: was trendy back then. Yeah. Don't tell Greta. If Greta hears, then
Joanne Lockwood: it's just I'm one of the baddies, yes. But no, I agree.
Joanne Lockwood: We've learned. I mean, in the same way we were talking just now about
Joanne Lockwood: if we don't know, we can't change. We didn't know about
Joanne Lockwood: carbon. We didn't know about plastics. We were just blind to it
Joanne Lockwood: because it wasn't a conversation people were having Or if they were,
Joanne Lockwood: we weren't listening or it wasn't being said in a way we could hear it.
Joanne Lockwood: And there's a whole load of things that we're probably still doing that we'll learn
Joanne Lockwood: in the years to come that we should have done. And that's that's about trying
Joanne Lockwood: to be waking up to everything, isn't it? Yeah. And and I think
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: the awareness and the willingness to say, hey. I don't always
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: get it right. In fact, lots of times I get it wrong. Here's here's my
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: mistake or error of judgment. Here's how I want to put
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: it right. And so if you don't mind, I'll apologize right
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: now for using the word insane about 10 minutes ago.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: You maybe heard me hesitate before I said it, and there were 3
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: similar words I could have used, all insulting in a mental health
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: sense. Jo, no, I'm really aiming to become more self
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: aware and more thoughtful about these things. But, you know, we're gonna put a
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: foot wrong. We're we're human. And that's what it's all about
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: is, you know, acknowledge your humanity and and
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: celebrate and give yourself a pat on the back every time
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: you choose to behave in a more resourceful way.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: That's the best way I can put it. Every time you do something that
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: is heading in in the way you want to be living your life, whatever that
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: is, you know, more thoughtful, more caring, more inclusive,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: more generous, whatever, Just recognize that and give
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: yourself that pat on the back.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Completely. And I I think we're setting ourselves
Joanne Lockwood: an unwinnable target if we think we have to be right first time
Joanne Lockwood: every time. It's about learning. It's about making mistakes. It's
Joanne Lockwood: about, I also say, it's about being accountable. So if I know I've made
Joanne Lockwood: a mistake, I apologize. I acknowledge it. I
Joanne Lockwood: put that right rather than pushing it away saying, oh, don't oh,
Joanne Lockwood: come on. Are you joking? Doesn't matter? It does matter to
Joanne Lockwood: people. And in the same way that I've I've learned those certain words or
Joanne Lockwood: phrases that people many people
Joanne Lockwood: believe or or feel are racist. And
Joanne Lockwood: I've looked up entomology, and I find some of the
Joanne Lockwood: definitions questionable whether it is or isn't. But rather than
Joanne Lockwood: argue with somebody about whether something is or isn't racist, I I say to
Joanne Lockwood: myself, you feel it is. I I don't need to argue about
Joanne Lockwood: that. I could I could use a different word or phrase. It doesn't it doesn't
Joanne Lockwood: cost me anything to adopt my language. I don't need to argue
Joanne Lockwood: whether it is or isn't racist. I just accept it is for you,
Joanne Lockwood: in which case I will never use that phrase again. And I in the same
Joanne Lockwood: way that because you care. That's because you care enough to do it.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: And so, you know, having the intention to care, having
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: the intention to, you know, behave in this thoughtful and resourceful
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: way, It's wonderful when people are
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: enlightened like yourself and they care enough. And so we're
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: here doing this work to open the doors. I say to
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: enlighten, not that we're enlightened,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: but we're enlightening. And that's the work that that needs to be
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: done. Right? Open the door and more light will come in.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: There was there was a real, fantastic
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: quote I've just finished reading Daring Greatly by
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: Brene Brown. And one of the
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: quotes that I highlighted was I'm gonna paraphrase if I don't get it
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: right, but we we need to
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: appreciate the cracks. That's how the light gets in.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: I love that. Yeah. You know, we're not perfect. No. That's that's
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. No. We're not perfect. I I also learned about,
Joanne Lockwood: the indigenous people from Northern Canada and that part of the
Joanne Lockwood: world and the term I used for years
Joanne Lockwood: was offensive and it meant eat war fish or something. It was kind
Joanne Lockwood: of a really stereotyping word and
Joanne Lockwood: I've learned the new word Inuit is I think which is the the name we
Joanne Lockwood: use now. I'm very conscious about making sure that I retrain
Joanne Lockwood: my brain every time I want to use the old Lockwood, Remember
Joanne Lockwood: the meaning, remember how insulting it is, remember how stereotyping it is,
Joanne Lockwood: and choose the choose the name that they describe themselves by, that they
Joanne Lockwood: respect yourself by. And that's all we can do, learn that new
Joanne Lockwood: word, practice it, practice it, practice it. In your
Joanne Lockwood: head, you get it wrong, you you catch yourself before it comes out.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And you you get in the habit of saying that. If you can catch
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: yourself before it comes out, not like me a few minutes ago.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: I want to, I wanna ask you about the word woke
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: because my PR company has a whole campaign going on. I
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: was called woke. I had to look it up because I'm not very trendy
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: or cool or anything. I didn't even know what it was. I was like, oh.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: And I started saying to them as we were planning our marketing for this year,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: I said, but I'm I'm happy to be woke. In fact, I'm proud to be
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: woke. So our hashtag is now woke and proud. But what
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: is your take on that? I see
Joanne Lockwood: people banding around as an insult or a slur. It's almost like
Joanne Lockwood: putting you down. Oh, that's just woke. It's like a snowflake, you're woke.
Joanne Lockwood: Right. And I sat down, I Googled it like many of us probably did.
Joanne Lockwood: I've researched the word and a phrase I
Joanne Lockwood: love is woke is obviously woken,
Joanne Lockwood: awoken is where it comes from. So the opposite of woke is
Joanne Lockwood: asleep. Right. I don't want to be asleep. Right. I
Joanne Lockwood: don't want to let the world pass me by. Therefore, I'm proud to
Joanne Lockwood: be awoken Yay. Till we wake it up to the world. Jo
Joanne Lockwood: I'm proud, if you wanna call me woke, in the context
Joanne Lockwood: of aware, forward thinking, and not asleep at
Joanne Lockwood: the wheel. Great. That's me. Great. That's how I see the word woke
Joanne Lockwood: is it's a it's a state of mind to be aware of the
Joanne Lockwood: surroundings, aware of language, aware of environmental and sustainability,
Joanne Lockwood: aware of the future of the planet. I think that's that's the
Joanne Lockwood: positive angle of woke. And, yeah, I'm woke. Woke and proud.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: So hashtag woke and proud, everybody who's listening. We'd welcome
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: your support with this. I'm just gonna write that
Joanne Lockwood: down. Woke and proud. Yeah. I'll make I'll make sure I tag that into the
Joanne Lockwood: episode. The only person who uses that. I'm not I'm not the only woke and
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: proud person on planet Earth. So we we need to, you
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: know, we need to shift that. Woke is a great thing to be.
Joanne Lockwood: It's not but but people weaponize it. They're trying to insult you by saying,
Joanne Lockwood: you're one of the woke crowd. Yeah, I am. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes. What? Let me explain
Joanne Lockwood: why. Yeah. I'm happy to talk about it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm not asleep. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: not asleep, won't be asleep. Yeah. We met, what, 3
Joanne Lockwood: or 4 years ago at PSA, Professional Speaking Association meeting, didn't we?
Joanne Lockwood: Yes. And I think when we met, you were telling me about your TEDx.
Joanne Lockwood: Mhmm. You you happy to talk about your TEDx? I am very happy talking about
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: the TEDx, which is now 4 years ago.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: Yeah. Jo, I mean, people can look it
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: up. Shall I spoil the the ending? No.
Joanne Lockwood: No. I mean, I remember the conversation we had initially about how you told
Joanne Lockwood: me about the circumstances that led up. Yes. And how
Joanne Lockwood: you how you became woke about Yeah. What
Joanne Lockwood: you were talking about. You know what? Look. It won't be a surprise, but that
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: that's fine. Look. I think it's still a powerful talk even if people know what's
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: coming up. The thing is I have a son who's transgender,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and it's not even a word I knew. Same
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: as woke, the first time I heard it I thought what is it?
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: But I had to definitely figure it out
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: because this is my son. This is a member of my family.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: And my journey, the the point about the TEDx
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: talk was to show that I don't feel
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: that I made the most resourceful choices in my behavior.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: I didn't cope the way I would have liked to. I didn't act like the
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: person I thought I was or the person I wanted to be. And
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: it took me a while to come around to it and
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: accept and unconditionally accept
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: him. And, you know, it's so crazy talking about it now, but
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: I had to oh, there we go. It's so different talking about it
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: now. And I didn't want there to
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: be, an association that there was something
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: wrong with me or him or it wasn't. I used it as a
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: jumping off place to talk about how when things
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: happen or when something occurs to us,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: we feel whatever we feel, but we can
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: choose to act. So, you know, it
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: it didn't take me as long as as long as it could have
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: done, but it was really about the message that came out of it. You
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: know, if if you're not happy with your own behavior or something
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: about yourself that you can choose. You can, you know, think
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: about it. Be thoughtful. Do you want to learn,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: you know, unconditional love and acceptance? Is it possible
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: that just if you look at it differently that that changes the way you look
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: at it? Or do you need to change the situation or something
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: about yourself? And that was my big realization.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: So obviously, my son was changing, you know, a big thing about himself,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: And it gave me the chance to change a lot about myself.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: It wasn't a situation I ever expected to be in. And thank
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: you for asking me to talk about it. The talk has
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: really opened so many doors for me to have conversations
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: with other people, people from lots of different
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: paths. So, yeah, that's that was my journey
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: based on my son's journey. I
Joanne Lockwood: I, obviously, I experienced that journey for myself the other way
Joanne Lockwood: around. So I was the I was in the center, and I it
Joanne Lockwood: took me a long while to realize the impact I had
Joanne Lockwood: on others. So at the beginning, I came from a
Joanne Lockwood: world where my echo chamber says, it's all about YOLO.
Joanne Lockwood: It's your life, get on with it, you're going to live once.
Joanne Lockwood: If everyone doesn't accept you, cut them loose and move
Joanne Lockwood: on. So that is the peer pressure you get within
Joanne Lockwood: my community at the time, basically saying, just
Joanne Lockwood: push on ahead and don't care about anybody else's feelings. And
Joanne Lockwood: what happened to me was I I started to realize the impact I
Joanne Lockwood: had on those close to me, my my wife, my my 2 children, my daughter
Joanne Lockwood: and my son, my mother, my father, my brother, and
Joanne Lockwood: also the people who've known me for 20 or 30 or 40 years.
Joanne Lockwood: I completely underestimated my impact
Joanne Lockwood: on them. And I think in the same way, I
Joanne Lockwood: became awoken to
Joanne Lockwood: the needs and feelings of others where I had never probably
Joanne Lockwood: considered those feelings in the same way ever in the past. And
Joanne Lockwood: I had to accept that people needed to get to know me
Joanne Lockwood: again. I couldn't just demand recognition.
Joanne Lockwood: I couldn't just demand acceptance. I couldn't demand anything.
Joanne Lockwood: What I found was I had to reestablish,
Joanne Lockwood: reconnect. I remember saying to my
Joanne Lockwood: wife probably about 4 years ago, in a moment of
Joanne Lockwood: sadness, you'll never be proud of me again because we're going through that
Joanne Lockwood: tough time in my life. I felt that I was an embarrassment. I felt
Joanne Lockwood: like I wrecked her life. I felt that everything we were going
Joanne Lockwood: through was really causing us so much pain. And I
Joanne Lockwood: remember probably 3, two and a half years ago when she said, I'm really proud
Joanne Lockwood: of you. And the emotional release that gave
Joanne Lockwood: me was I'd I'd finally earned her respect
Joanne Lockwood: and trust, and she was proud of me.
Joanne Lockwood: But it took my daughter even longer.
Joanne Lockwood: And my daughter's getting married in 6 weeks' time.
Joanne Lockwood: And our relationship broke down to the point where she
Joanne Lockwood: completely rejected me. She completely switched off about me. She wouldn't she wouldn't speak
Joanne Lockwood: to me. She wouldn't return any of my calls. You know, to paraphrase, I was
Joanne Lockwood: dead to her effectively, the way she put it. And we went
Joanne Lockwood: out for coffee the other night. We reconnected about a year ago. We went out
Joanne Lockwood: for a meal, coffee in Brighton Marina. And she wanted to
Joanne Lockwood: talk to me about that phase of our life together and how
Joanne Lockwood: she felt going into it and how I felt. And we
Joanne Lockwood: both sat there
Joanne Lockwood: McFlurry and we fried in the car park and we really just bonded.
Joanne Lockwood: But I think what happened was we we we failed to
Joanne Lockwood: communicate at the right point and that that failed to communicate. There
Joanne Lockwood: was an assumption, there was a feeling, and my daughter had
Joanne Lockwood: massive anxiety attack about addressing the problem. She knew she
Joanne Lockwood: couldn't, so she walked away. And I'd never had a relationship with my
Joanne Lockwood: daughter where she wouldn't talk to me. We had we had a kind of a
Joanne Lockwood: a hot relationship where we were either at each other's throats
Joanne Lockwood: and really dealing with things and scratching and screaming at each
Joanne Lockwood: other and really working on the issue live and hot
Joanne Lockwood: or we were hugging. And so I'd never had the point I never under
Joanne Lockwood: I never understand her that she could disengage
Joanne Lockwood: and bury her head in the sand and and hide the the problem.
Joanne Lockwood: And I didn't know how to deal with that. And when we we talked about
Joanne Lockwood: it the other night, we both unpacked that, discovered it.
Joanne Lockwood: And I learned something about her that I never knew. And I completely empathize
Joanne Lockwood: on her, know where she's coming from now, and I can actually see it as
Joanne Lockwood: other things she did, how she used to hide her homework. Now when she was
Joanne Lockwood: given the task of ironing, she used to hide the ironing in the cupboard until
Joanne Lockwood: we found it a month later. So she was a very much a head in
Joanne Lockwood: the sand person, and I I never saw that. And I think without
Joanne Lockwood: that conversation and me waking up to
Joanne Lockwood: her needs as an individual, I'd never discovered
Joanne Lockwood: that. Well,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: again, you both had the intention because you
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: both cared. So, you know, in in your case you
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: could have said, oh, whatever, you know, living my life.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: And she, thank goodness, you know, realized that it was
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: important to have to reconnect with you. You know,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: we, we're all on a journey and and it takes it takes
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: 2 to tango as they say. And you can do what you
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: can do, if anybody listening to us
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: feels they're not accepted or they don't belong to bring that word
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: in. You can only do so much. Again in the
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: Brene Brown, it says Jo fresh in my mind, but I know I have to
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: quote the study that she did, the difference between belonging and
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: fitting in. I'm sure you know it. I'm sure you quote it yourself. You
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: know, belonging is you being part of a group
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: where they also want you there.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: And, and if you're not, then and you're not fitting
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: in, you know, you want to belong but it's not happening,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: then you have some choices to make. And, you know, it does go
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: back to what I was saying about, unconditional love and
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: acceptance of the situation or yourself or them or
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: change something about it. So we always have that choice.
Joanne Lockwood: I I think for me, fitting in is forcing yourself
Joanne Lockwood: into a hole where you almost fit,
Joanne Lockwood: whereas belonging is that hole is just for you. It's your
Joanne Lockwood: whole. You create space, and the
Joanne Lockwood: space absorbs you around you where whoever you are, psychological safety, the
Joanne Lockwood: showing up, The real you, but fitting in is you're
Joanne Lockwood: always compromising that the edges are slightly you can't
Joanne Lockwood: quite go there. You're slightly square edges in the round
Joanne Lockwood: holes within. That's the fitting in. You're you're always worried about
Joanne Lockwood: compromise. Well, it's just is that. It's fitting in
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: trying to fit in is stressful, whereas belonging just is. You
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: you know you have a sense of belonging when and, you know, it it's,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: it goes back to what I was saying before. You know, people have
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: certain, I don't know what you call them, criteria
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: or or just aspects that they are using to figure out if
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: they belong with with someone else or if they're part of that group or if
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: we have things in common. But if you expand your definition and your
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: understanding of the whole person, chances
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: are, you know, you you you do belong together in in, you
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: know, in pretty much any situation. You can be with someone else. There's very few
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: people that I couldn't form a connection with.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: And I and and I have connections with I was just gonna
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: say a word that I'm not sure is right. I was gonna
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: say psychopath. But I have no idea. I'm not a
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: psychologist, and I'm not gonna say if the person I'm thinking about is 1 or
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: not. All I can say is that it takes an extra effort with
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: some people, and then I have a choice. Do I want to make that extra
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: effort? And if I do and they don't, then we're still in a bit of
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: a bind. But, yeah. It's it's it is
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: fun. Is there empathy? Is there compassion to be truly
Joanne Lockwood: do we truly give wanna give time to other people? And Yeah. Yeah, as you
Joanne Lockwood: say, that word you use psychopath, the traits there are there is no
Joanne Lockwood: empathy. There is no consideration of others. It's all about Right. Personal
Joanne Lockwood: self, if you like. But can you have empathy for that person so that, you
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: know, that this is a lot of the work I do is around,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: being thoughtful even when others aren't. Showing respect even when someone
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: does not. And, you know, caring about someone even
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: when it's pretty obvious they don't care about you. This is the gritty
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: stuff that I like working with, you know, and and it's
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: it's comes down to your intention and your choices.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. You may know this lady as well. I met somebody
Joanne Lockwood: at PSA, Official Speaking Association Scotland meeting
Joanne Lockwood: and she was married to a multiple pagerist who
Joanne Lockwood: obviously had, psychopathic, sociopathic
Joanne Lockwood: instincts because they had no empathy for the situation they're causing. I
Joanne Lockwood: remember her saying, it's like blaming the lion for
Joanne Lockwood: eating the antelope. The the lion doesn't have feelings for the antelope.
Joanne Lockwood: We may go, oh, that's so sad, but the lion is doing what it does
Joanne Lockwood: naturally. So you can't blame the lion for doing what it does. So sociopath or
Joanne Lockwood: psychopath, you can't blame them necessarily for being that way. That's just the
Joanne Lockwood: way their brain is. See, it's not a blame
Joanne Lockwood: thing, it's just acknowledging this person doesn't have empathy.
Joanne Lockwood: I can't change that. I have to accept in the same way that I want
Joanne Lockwood: them to accept I have empathy. I have to accept they don't have empathy, and
Joanne Lockwood: we can agree to differ on that or I learned to manage that
Joanne Lockwood: relationship. So I'm I have safety in my own feelings and they don't
Joanne Lockwood: absorb me. Yes. That's right. So it's acknowledging that difference of
Joanne Lockwood: character, difference of thinking different to them and not treating it as
Joanne Lockwood: a they're bad, I'm good. Right. That's a bias again, isn't it? That's our own
Joanne Lockwood: bias of kicking them. Whatever I do is good or whatever someone else does is
Joanne Lockwood: bad. I have Jo, no, you're just a lion, I'm just the
Joanne Lockwood: antelope. There's no remorse, it's just the way you are. If I let
Joanne Lockwood: you eat me, you will eat me. That's fine. I know that. I'm stepping away
Joanne Lockwood: now. Well, thank you for leading straight into one
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: of my topics, because in the thoughtful leader, I talk about the
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: bubble. And it's it is a very interesting concept because a
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: lot of people are saying you shouldn't have yourself in a bubble, but the bubble
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: is all around psychological safety. The bubble
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: is all about you making sure that
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: you are not being influenced, in a negative way
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: by people who are in your sphere of influence. So we
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: sometimes don't even realize who and what is influencing us.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: That comes back to, again, open your eyes, be awake, be
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: woke, and see what's happening. And then if
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: you realize that, you know, somebody is behaving in a certain way
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and you aim to have that thoughtful conversation and they're not playing,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: you have your choice. And step away is a valid response.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: So we do not have to engage with every single
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: person in every single situation. That that's a lot of pressure
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: that people put on themselves. However,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: it's it's a spectrum of a of a certain kind because if
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: you disengage to the point where you're totally protected,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: you you feel totally safe, but you never talk to a living soul, and you
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: don't leave your house, and you you know, that that's you're missing out on
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: some really beautiful aspects of humanity, I feel.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: Maybe some people don't think that way, but, you know, I I think
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: there's it's somewhere in the middle. What do you think, Jo?
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I I think you're right. And often when I talk to people in in
Joanne Lockwood: in my inclusion and belonging work, there's this fear of getting
Joanne Lockwood: it wrong. There's also this fear of
Joanne Lockwood: it's too enormous. How do I include everybody? I
Joanne Lockwood: say, well, actually, inclusion is not about including everybody.
Joanne Lockwood: And it comes down to the idea if you've got the freedom principles, fairness,
Joanne Lockwood: respect, equality, dignity and autonomy.
Joanne Lockwood: So when you're making a decision about whether whether to include or exclude
Joanne Lockwood: somebody, are you being fair? Are you given opportunity and
Joanne Lockwood: choice and equality? Are you making sure that you're you're dignifying them
Joanne Lockwood: with the with the way you're treating them? And if you could apply that test
Joanne Lockwood: to every decision you make and you don't and you feel that somebody
Joanne Lockwood: isn't for you, then you've done it fairly. You haven't you've
Joanne Lockwood: been subjective. You haven't been unkind. You haven't been manipulated and
Joanne Lockwood: went on that. So that's the test I would use. And when we think about
Joanne Lockwood: in the recruitment process, you can't hire everybody. So
Joanne Lockwood: as long as your recruitment process is fair, equitable,
Joanne Lockwood: you've got opportunities for all people, and you don't get the job
Joanne Lockwood: piece, you don't have the best skills, that's you're still included
Joanne Lockwood: in the process, you just didn't make it to the end. I think that's the
Joanne Lockwood: mistake people make is they gotta try and make everybody feel included. Mhmm. It's
Joanne Lockwood: about being fair about who is selected, who does have the
Joanne Lockwood: opportunity. I think that's what we've got to try and think about here is is
Joanne Lockwood: the mindset that goes into our thought, always thinking, is
Joanne Lockwood: that fair? Is that kind? We may make a judgment. You know, we see people
Joanne Lockwood: in the street, oh, I don't like her shoes or that's a a handbag
Joanne Lockwood: doesn't go with that dress. And there's a little micro adjustments we make all the
Joanne Lockwood: time, but it's stopping it coming out of your mouth because it go, that's that's
Joanne Lockwood: that's unkind. That's not fair. That that has no value to anybody. I'll just keep
Joanne Lockwood: that thought to myself and train myself to to try and ignore that next
Joanne Lockwood: time. Aw. And and that and that's because you
Joanne Lockwood: can't you can't expect people to not have biases.
Joanne Lockwood: Biases are there. You can't expect people to not have judgments because judgments
Joanne Lockwood: and biases are all part of us evaluating the world around us. What
Joanne Lockwood: it's about doing is how we manage, though, and how it comes out when we
Joanne Lockwood: talk, and that's what we gotta be careful. Yeah. Well, thank you for bringing that
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: up. You and I meet a lot of influencers,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and I don't mean, you know, celebrity types. We
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: people who have influence in the sense that they are organizing
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: events. They have tickets for things. They have
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: opportunities, collaborations, podcast interviews.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: So I think when we open up the opportunity to
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: everybody, we are inclusive. And so it's creating the
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: space. It's about creating the opportunity. And then the
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: people who step in, well, that's up to them.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: Where we have an issue is where we think we're being inclusive,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: but the other party doesn't feel that it is an
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: equitable situation, which is a perception. Because maybe
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: because that particular conference has always had a certain
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: type of speaker. They all look the same, sound the same, smell the
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: same. So, you know, the person who's kind of standing on the edge
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: thinks, well, there's no point applying
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: because it it's pointless. I'm not gonna get that
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: opportunity. I'm not gonna get that gig.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: I can see that because I've I've had those thoughts myself. I
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: think, oh, do I wanna bang my head against the wall?
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: No. Even though it does feel better when you stop. I don't
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: want to be the person who stops myself
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: getting an opportunity. So, you know, I just sort
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: of take a deep breath and and charge in again. And, you know,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: we have to make an extra effort. So I guess my point
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: is we have to make an extra effort as the organizer of that
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: opportunity or event or whatever, in my case, being a
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: publisher. 80% of our publishing
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: slots are dedicated, allocated, and reserved for
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: people from underrepresented groups. 80%
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: nonnegotiable. That was my big moment 2 years
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: ago, and we've stuck to that. And if you're in
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: that position of influence or or you have that privilege,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: which it is, to stick to it, make it really clear. Everybody's
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: welcome. So, you know, when I get pushback, I say, well, we'll still have
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: 20% available to people who are not from underrepresented
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: groups. It's just, you know, there's a lot of other places where you can publish
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: a book. We're aiming to to, you know,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: improve that part of the industry. And then if you're
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: the person who is thinking, oh, is it worth applying? Is it even?
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: Yes. I might my answer would be yes. It's always worth putting
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: yourself forward. It might be an extra effort. But imagine
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: if you get that and you pave the way for other
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: people and show that it's possible when you like to
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: inspire others. No.
Joanne Lockwood: For sure. I I think I I dropped in on your conference you
Joanne Lockwood: organized recently. It's more US time zone based, I believe.
Joanne Lockwood: I think I was I was helping one of your conference organizers with their tech,
Joanne Lockwood: and I got a link, and I just dropped in and had to listen to
Joanne Lockwood: a few sessions. And you had a very
Joanne Lockwood: balanced set of speakers. I I would probably say
Joanne Lockwood: leaned more female than male for the for the ratio.
Joanne Lockwood: And when people say that it's I mean, I hear this all the time. It's
Joanne Lockwood: just so difficult to find good women speakers. It's so difficult to find good
Joanne Lockwood: black lawyers. It's so difficult to find. And I
Joanne Lockwood: say, if you're not winning games, change the manager,
Joanne Lockwood: and then you start winning games. If you if you can't get a
Joanne Lockwood: diverse lineup, you can't get diverse workforce, change the
Joanne Lockwood: hiring manager, change the booker, change that because I guarantee you, if you
Joanne Lockwood: put a a woman in charge of a speaking event, you'll get more women. If
Joanne Lockwood: you put a black person in charge, you get more black people. Right. And when
Joanne Lockwood: I was talking to this recruitment consultant, they said it's really hard to find good
Joanne Lockwood: black lawyers with the specialism. I said, but there were black led legal
Joanne Lockwood: firms that have black lawyers and I bet they don't have trouble finding
Joanne Lockwood: them. So it's about getting into the community, understanding the value
Joanne Lockwood: proposition, speak the language, sound attractive, the brand of
Joanne Lockwood: the organization. And if you're not getting attract if you're not attracted to
Joanne Lockwood: people, look in the mirror, look at who you are, look at what you stand
Joanne Lockwood: for because it's you that's not attractive.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: Well, for our conference, we did
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: allocate 80% of the speaking slots to people from
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: underrepresented groups. That was our intention, and that's what we
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: did. So thank you for noticing. I really appreciate that. We had people
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: from every community. We had people. I I'm not
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: sure how well we did in the LGBTQ plus community because
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: we we have certain well, we can't have a
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: quota for each yet because it's it is
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: quite difficult to find just the right number of people. But
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: we opened it up. We made it clear. We I actually do talk about it,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: which is it does sound very woke and almost non PC
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: to say we want you because you're from
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: a minority group. I mean but I've I've just got used to
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: having those conversations. Not we want you. We we we especially
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: want you because you're from that group and you're a good speaker.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: So as long as I'm coming from the right place, as long as I have
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: the right intention, everybody raved about the
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: conference. I don't know who else noticed because some people would
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: just be like, okay, those were the 20 speakers. Would they notice
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: that 16 were not middle aged white men, middle aged
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: straight white men? I don't know. Able-bodied
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: anyway, you you you get the idea. We didn't. We opened it
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: up, and we managed that.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: It's it's a choice, and it is extra effort. And some people
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: are thinking, oh, you know, I don't I don't know how
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and and I don't really have time to put in the extra effort. But
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: then again, you know, this is gonna reflect on
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: you. Yeah. Complete I completely agree. I I as
Joanne Lockwood: I say, I did notice because, I I mean, first of all, I noticed
Joanne Lockwood: because the lead emcee was female.
Joanne Lockwood: All of the organizing committee were female. So I knew I
Joanne Lockwood: knew how it was being structured and organized. Therefore, it was
Joanne Lockwood: inclusive by default rather than inclusive as an afterthought. You weren't trying to bolt
Joanne Lockwood: in other people after the event, it was started
Joanne Lockwood: off with that as the framework and I think that's the problem some people make
Joanne Lockwood: is they try and reverse engineer the diversity quotient. Jo, I mean, I
Joanne Lockwood: tokenized. Sorry. I only run one conference a year. I can't
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: afford to play, you know, tokenism because
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: if that conference doesn't achieve everything that we hope
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: for, we're we're not gonna be able to continue in future. We've
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: got big plans. It's, people are wondering what we're talking about. It's called the
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: Above and Beyond Thoughtful Leadership Conference. It's all about
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: thoughtful leadership, so we kinda have to walk our talk. And,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: we will get you to speak at one of the conferences, Jo, for
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: sure. Okay. Okay. Jo we're,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: yeah. Well, I mean, I guess we still have a little time. I don't know
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: what other question you have for me, but I could Oh, I was gonna go
Joanne Lockwood: back to the title of the show Okay. About Chris' level playing
Joanne Lockwood: field. It's easy for us to say
Joanne Lockwood: as white people with privilege that we're living the playing
Joanne Lockwood: field. I perceive that many
Joanne Lockwood: people would consider the playing field to be so stacked against them.
Joanne Lockwood: We're not even we haven't even got the new turf ordered yet.
Joanne Lockwood: We're still trying to we're still trying to get the diggers into trying add
Joanne Lockwood: some dirt into that. The whole playing field is built
Joanne Lockwood: on probably structural racism, societal.
Joanne Lockwood: We look at stop and search, we look at we talked at BBC program earlier
Joanne Lockwood: about the inequities in their education system, the
Joanne Lockwood: opportunities that failed to exist. This this playing
Joanne Lockwood: field is so bumpy and so stacked against a large part of the
Joanne Lockwood: community. Are are the are the privileged people
Joanne Lockwood: getting more privileged? I mean, there was a thing about the the government
Joanne Lockwood: departments, the senior civil servants about this velvet drain
Joanne Lockwood: pipe, how the ratio of privileged middle aged
Joanne Lockwood: white men generally starting straight up this drain pipe
Joanne Lockwood: into these positions where people who are from the minority communities really are
Joanne Lockwood: struggling to get into these higher opportunities. So we may be living in the
Joanne Lockwood: playing field at the front door, but actually when you get to where it counts,
Joanne Lockwood: it's still stacked. I think it counts at every stage, to
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: be honest. I I think, when you get when it just
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: becomes the norm and nobody really thinks about it, but they
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: see a truly diverse organization
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: or group or team, then, you
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: know, you you have a diverse group who who are all, you know,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: aiming to move up. Then you can address it at the next level and then
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: the next level and then so it it it's like you said, you know,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: you you Joanne tackle the whole thing all at once. You you can't, you
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: know, say, well, I have to include everybody. That's a big ask. That's a lot
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: of stress. It's like boiling the ocean. Not gonna happen.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: Never. Well, I don't know. Climate change folks might say it's
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: happening. Yeah. I'm sure the dinosaurs thought that and then it
Joanne Lockwood: it kinda happened, didn't it? Yeah. But we You know,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: being enlightened about these things is the first step.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: It acknowledging that you're a caring person and then asking
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: yourself, are you willing to do a little bit more? Yes. It's tough. Yes. It's
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: bumpy. There's no turf. Get your shin pads on and get in there
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and play. Play the game. Just enter the fray.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: It it, Yeah. It's hard, and a lot of people won't go
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: for it, but then that's that's kind of
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: Pareto, you know, the 80 20 principle.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: 80% of of people are just
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: happy, you know, ticking along, doing their thing, keeping their heads down
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and, you know but the 20% who think,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: yeah. You know what? I could do more. I could create more. I could create
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: more opportunities. I could help more. I could
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: speak and use my influence in a positive way.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: Yes, you can. And, I feel I feel like I'm
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: on a a political podium and, yes, you can. Yeah. That's good.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: But the soapbox is out. Let's go for it. Yeah. No. I mean,
Joanne Lockwood: I often say it, and it Joanne sound a bit cliche if you're not careful,
Joanne Lockwood: but you can't change the world, but you can change the
Joanne Lockwood: one. Be the one, be the one person that
Joanne Lockwood: says not on my watch, I can make a difference personally.
Joanne Lockwood: And then to coin a kind of a COVID phrase, become
Joanne Lockwood: infectious. Get the r number of inclusion, the I number
Joanne Lockwood: if you want, up to up to 2. Infect people with your
Joanne Lockwood: ethos of inclusion, belonging, leveling the playing field,
Joanne Lockwood: then the one becomes the many. And then we can do that one at a
Joanne Lockwood: time. The other thing I often say is a snowflake on its
Joanne Lockwood: own hits the ground and melts. A snowflake with its friends
Joanne Lockwood: becomes an avalanche. Avalanches change landscapes.
Joanne Lockwood: So be that part of that avalanche of of momentum and
Joanne Lockwood: be the one that joins in. I love that.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: I I use a snowball metaphor, but it it's saying the
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: same thing. The only thing I would add to that
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: is focus on yourself. Do your
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: thing, you know, think about your intentions, put extra
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: thought and care into your interactions, go
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: out there, put it out into the world,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and be be thoughtfully inclusive
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and equitable and and create that.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: What happens after that, we need to almost let go of that
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: because I feel very strongly that, we cannot
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: really control how our message lands,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: how people will react to what we're doing and saying.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: So just remember your influence
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: is all about what you put out there. And if you do
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: your best with the best intentions, it it will have that
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: effect. But, just just keep your eye on yourself because I
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: do see a lot of people getting upset when
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: they don't seem to get the traction and they they know
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: that you know, you won't always, but keep doing it anyway.
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: That's what I would say. Brilliant.
Joanne Lockwood: And those words of inspiration, I think we'll,
Joanne Lockwood: we'll let our listeners check the show notes. I'll say, how how can people
Joanne Lockwood: get a hold of you and tell people a bit more about what you do
Joanne Lockwood: before we move on? So how do they get a hold of you? Hold of
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: me, https://mindygk.com. It's my supposed to be
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: my official website. There are so many other places though where
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: people can find me. I'm trying to use Mindy GK here and there because,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: people spell my last name in a funny way and
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: then they don't find me. The Thoughtful Leader The thoughtful leader
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: has many formats of book, ebook, audiobook, as
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: well as my podcast, as well as my clubhouse club called The Thoughtful Leaders,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: plural, because we wanted to be more inclusive, not just 1,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and reach out. I have a very inclusive
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and expansive connection
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: and relationship strategy. Until I
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: get up to my limit on any social network,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: I'm open. If someone abuses it, they're cut
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: off. But until then, you know, connect with me. I
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: would love to chat more about these topics.
Joanne Lockwood: I suppose if anyone's got a book inside them they're dying to bring out to
Joanne Lockwood: the world, look you up. Yes. And if if
Joanne Lockwood: you can't help, you know people that could help. Well. Especially if they're
Joanne Lockwood: not a typical If they're from an
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: underrepresented group. Yeah. So I do I do
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: run 3 companies. I I run the thoughtful leadership
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: company where I do my speaking and training on these topics. I
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: also run a book coaching company that is going strong
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: 19 years now, running the book midwife, and the book
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: midwife is a metaphor. I'm not a real midwife, so don't call me
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: in the middle of the night. I've got the baby. And I run Panomo Press
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: Publishing Company. So Panomo Press is,
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: the publisher for business, self help, and life
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: story type books that, yeah, 80%
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: are authored by people from underrepresented groups. So I would love to speak with
Mindy Kibbins-Klein: anyone about any of those things.
Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much.
Joanne Lockwood: I I'm sure we could talk for another couple of hours. There's lots we could
Joanne Lockwood: have covered and absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much for your time.
Joanne Lockwood: And of course, thank you to the listeners for tuning in
Joanne Lockwood: and getting to this point in the podcast. Thank you for sticking with it. And
Joanne Lockwood: if you haven't subscribed, please do subscribe to keep updates on future
Joanne Lockwood: episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's B-I-T-E-S.
Joanne Lockwood: Tell your friends. I'm sure you have a couple. Tell your colleagues. Spread the word
Joanne Lockwood: and share. I've got a number of other exciting guests
Joanne Lockwood: lined up. I'm sure you'll also be inspired by over the next few weeks
Joanne Lockwood: months. And, of course, if you'd like to be a guest, if you've got some
Joanne Lockwood: inspiration or a story you'd like to tell, then join me. I'd also
Joanne Lockwood: welcome any feedback and suggestions on how we can improve the show.
Joanne Lockwood: Just email me jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk My name is Joanne
Joanne Lockwood: Lockwood . And it's been an
Joanne Lockwood: absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next
Joanne Lockwood: time. Bye.