WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.010 --> 00:00:05.726 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the 2 00:00:05.748 --> 00:00:09.566 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number of 3 00:00:09.588 --> 00:00:12.894 amazing people and simply had a conversation around the subject of 4 00:00:12.932 --> 00:00:16.782 inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place 5 00:00:16.836 --> 00:00:20.366 for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please 6 00:00:20.388 --> 00:00:21.582 do drop me a line to 7 00:00:21.636 --> 00:00:25.090 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 8 00:00:25.210 --> 00:00:28.970 That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. 9 00:00:28.970 --> 00:00:32.786 You can catch up with all of the previous shows on itunes, Spotify 10 00:00:32.898 --> 00:00:36.322 and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, 11 00:00:36.466 --> 00:00:39.260 grab a decaf and let's get going. 12 00:00:40.030 --> 00:00:43.878 Today is Episode 42 with a title 13 00:00:43.974 --> 00:00:47.706 being a Woman in a Man's World. I 14 00:00:47.728 --> 00:00:50.666 have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Mandy 15 00:00:50.698 --> 00:00:54.234 Hickson. Mandy is a former Royal Air Force 16 00:00:54.282 --> 00:00:57.946 Tornado GR4 pilot. Now a keynote speaker 17 00:00:57.978 --> 00:01:01.594 and author. The best selling book. An officer, 18 00:01:01.722 --> 00:01:05.138 not a gentleman. And when I asked Mandy to describe her 19 00:01:05.144 --> 00:01:07.970 superpower, she said Authenticity. 20 00:01:08.790 --> 00:01:12.546 Hello, Mandy, welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne. What an 21 00:01:12.568 --> 00:01:16.402 absolute pleasure it is to be here. Thanks so much for inviting me in. Yes, 22 00:01:16.456 --> 00:01:19.938 we've talked about it for a couple of months now, and finally, the Ducks are 23 00:01:19.944 --> 00:01:23.606 in a row. We all wanted to have it last week, and then 24 00:01:23.628 --> 00:01:27.414 my son suddenly got a cancellation for his driving test, didn't he? Which 25 00:01:27.452 --> 00:01:31.206 I would like to say he passed, so we can relax 26 00:01:31.238 --> 00:01:34.966 in our house. Now, that's an achievement, because I hear that driving 27 00:01:34.998 --> 00:01:38.566 test waiting lists are around almost a year in some cases. It's hideous. 28 00:01:38.678 --> 00:01:42.438 Yeah, I mean, he had failed a couple of times before because it's 29 00:01:42.454 --> 00:01:46.286 just been such a stagnated and awful sort of like training for them 30 00:01:46.308 --> 00:01:49.854 for the whole year. And we had one booked in in 31 00:01:49.892 --> 00:01:53.726 September, and then he literally got a cancellation because I was like it was 32 00:01:53.748 --> 00:01:57.218 like a quick draw on this app where cancellations come up and it's like the 33 00:01:57.224 --> 00:02:00.306 fastest finger first. Well, I tell you what, I would be all over who Wants 34 00:02:00.328 --> 00:02:03.330 to Be a Millionaire? I got it nailed within seconds. 35 00:02:07.030 --> 00:02:08.820 And he passed. That's the best thing. 36 00:02:11.370 --> 00:02:15.126 So you've spent a whole career being a woman in 37 00:02:15.148 --> 00:02:18.786 a man's world. What was that like? It's 38 00:02:18.818 --> 00:02:22.134 fascinating. So I joined the Royal Air Force when I was 39 00:02:22.172 --> 00:02:25.626 21, back in 1994, which, gosh, it makes me 40 00:02:25.648 --> 00:02:28.646 feel like it was aeons ago, especially when I speak to some of the younger 41 00:02:28.678 --> 00:02:31.740 generation and they go, I wasn't born then. I'm thinking, oh, really? 42 00:02:32.750 --> 00:02:36.558 And yet I was the second woman to fly the Tornado Gr Four on the 43 00:02:36.564 --> 00:02:40.346 front line. So I sort of came through in that very first tranche 44 00:02:40.378 --> 00:02:44.158 of women that were allowed to fly fast jets and, yeah, it 45 00:02:44.164 --> 00:02:48.002 was interesting. I never really massively struggled with 46 00:02:48.136 --> 00:02:51.794 that sort of being a woman in a man's world, particularly in training, 47 00:02:51.912 --> 00:02:55.618 because I think the guys that I was going through were a 48 00:02:55.624 --> 00:02:59.446 band of brothers, they were my best friends. And I 49 00:02:59.468 --> 00:03:03.286 didn't feel that I sort of stuck out, even though, realistically, looking back, I did 50 00:03:03.308 --> 00:03:07.074 stick out because I'm six foot tall and I've got a really loud 51 00:03:07.122 --> 00:03:10.554 laugh. So regardless of gender, I stuck out 52 00:03:10.592 --> 00:03:14.394 anyway. But when I got to the squadron, I did start to notice it 53 00:03:14.432 --> 00:03:18.038 more. Probably because they'd never had a woman flying 54 00:03:18.134 --> 00:03:21.886 as a pilot on that squadron. And so of course there's going to be big 55 00:03:21.908 --> 00:03:25.120 differences there. Well, 56 00:03:25.490 --> 00:03:28.958 I joined the Royal Air Force, actually in 1981. Oh, really? 57 00:03:29.044 --> 00:03:32.190 And I trained as a communications 58 00:03:33.010 --> 00:03:36.414 engineer. I worked on radar radio, and I 59 00:03:36.452 --> 00:03:39.542 probably actually trained on PTR 60 00:03:39.706 --> 00:03:43.438 1751, which is probably the radio you had in your Tornado. 61 00:03:43.534 --> 00:03:46.946 Wow. I used to repair those. And then lastly I worked for Plessy 62 00:03:46.978 --> 00:03:50.614 Avionics who manufactured those, and I used to service the test 63 00:03:50.652 --> 00:03:54.406 equipment in some of the third line hangers that used to 64 00:03:54.428 --> 00:03:57.974 support hotels. So yeah, I never got much 65 00:03:58.012 --> 00:04:01.786 closer than watched them taking off, lift off from the runway, which 66 00:04:01.808 --> 00:04:05.434 is an impressive sight when they put the afterburners on, just punch their way out. 67 00:04:05.472 --> 00:04:08.954 It's like absolutely incredible. There's nothing quite like that feeling, actually. And 68 00:04:09.072 --> 00:04:11.914 people often sort of said, oh, what was it like that first trip? And that 69 00:04:11.952 --> 00:04:15.770 first trip is literally seared into the memory bank of just 70 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:19.518 lighting the burners, because you've done lots of practising in the simulator, and then when 71 00:04:19.524 --> 00:04:22.206 you do it for real, you're thinking, oh, yeah, I'm used to the environment because 72 00:04:22.228 --> 00:04:25.586 I've been in the simulator, so I know a while. The switches are and then 73 00:04:25.608 --> 00:04:29.198 you put these throttles forward and you click them into burner, 74 00:04:29.294 --> 00:04:32.814 and it's that thrust. I think it's about two G force of lateral 75 00:04:32.862 --> 00:04:36.082 acceleration. I think the closest I'd ever describe it as 76 00:04:36.136 --> 00:04:39.758 is there's a roller coaster at Thorpe Park 77 00:04:39.854 --> 00:04:43.366 and I can't even remember what it's called now, stealth. And it literally just as 78 00:04:43.388 --> 00:04:46.898 a wingover. That's it. The ride lasts for I think it's 7 seconds 79 00:04:46.994 --> 00:04:50.614 and people queue up for 2 hours. And you're thinking why? Well, the reason 80 00:04:50.732 --> 00:04:53.914 is because it's as close as you'll ever get to taking off in a fast 81 00:04:53.952 --> 00:04:57.386 jet. Really? Wow. I remember back 82 00:04:57.408 --> 00:05:01.034 in I was talking about the early eighty S, and there was 83 00:05:01.072 --> 00:05:04.762 still the male Air Force and 84 00:05:04.816 --> 00:05:08.590 the women's Royal Air Force, the WAFs, and it was still separated. 85 00:05:09.570 --> 00:05:11.918 Women weren't allowed to go on the front line, they weren't allowed to fight, they 86 00:05:11.924 --> 00:05:15.710 weren't allowed to go on ships in the Navy. It was a very 87 00:05:15.780 --> 00:05:19.602 different world back in those eighty s, and probably you just came in just 88 00:05:19.656 --> 00:05:23.438 after that site change. I don't know when it actually changed, to be honest, Joanne, 89 00:05:23.454 --> 00:05:26.774 I'm not sure what the date was when actually it went from being the 90 00:05:26.892 --> 00:05:30.502 WRF to the RAF as a whole, actually. 91 00:05:30.636 --> 00:05:34.406 But I'm really proud in some ways of 92 00:05:34.428 --> 00:05:38.154 all the services. But the RAF was the first of all the three 93 00:05:38.192 --> 00:05:41.882 services to have full inclusivity for 94 00:05:42.016 --> 00:05:45.626 genders on every single role. So every role was 95 00:05:45.648 --> 00:05:49.386 opened up to women. And I just feel 96 00:05:49.488 --> 00:05:52.830 it's such a different place to work from. Probably what you 97 00:05:52.900 --> 00:05:56.718 experienced certainly in the 1980s and actually what I experienced as well. 98 00:05:56.804 --> 00:06:00.366 I did see that changing throughout my time. One of 99 00:06:00.388 --> 00:06:04.142 my really close friends is gay and 100 00:06:04.276 --> 00:06:07.838 when he joined the Air Force at the same time as me, it was illegal. 101 00:06:07.934 --> 00:06:11.746 He actually had to say in his interview, they said, Are you gay? And 102 00:06:11.768 --> 00:06:15.566 he would absolutely categorically no I'm not. Because he was desperate 103 00:06:15.598 --> 00:06:18.678 to be a fast jet pilot. And as he was saying it, he's thinking, I 104 00:06:18.764 --> 00:06:22.470 absolutely categorically am and I'm going to have to basically 105 00:06:22.620 --> 00:06:25.622 have this awful world where I'm living 106 00:06:25.676 --> 00:06:29.490 closeted. I can't be true to my own identity, and the stress that brings to 107 00:06:29.500 --> 00:06:33.286 the workplace is enormous. Well, in fact to your whole life is enormous, isn't 108 00:06:33.318 --> 00:06:36.826 it? Completely. So I was the early eighty s, 109 00:06:36.848 --> 00:06:40.682 and I certainly wouldn't be able to have been trans 110 00:06:40.736 --> 00:06:43.770 in those days. I certainly wouldn't be able to be an open about that. And 111 00:06:43.840 --> 00:06:47.678 it wasn't a kind of passive if you're gay, you're in trouble. It was kind 112 00:06:47.684 --> 00:06:50.862 of an active rooting out of people who were gay, wasn't it? It was very 113 00:06:50.916 --> 00:06:54.550 proactive and the Special Investigation Bureau would come down and they'd 114 00:06:54.570 --> 00:06:58.258 grill you. It wasn't like being a 115 00:06:58.264 --> 00:07:01.730 bit ostracised. You would literally were you could be arrested. 116 00:07:02.310 --> 00:07:06.066 I don't think actually they would definitely kick you out and you potentially could 117 00:07:06.088 --> 00:07:09.862 lose your pension rights and things like that. But it even 118 00:07:09.916 --> 00:07:13.702 had that if you went to the doctor with an issue that they 119 00:07:13.756 --> 00:07:16.120 had the rights to out 120 00:07:17.290 --> 00:07:21.066 know, they've taken this oath to not share any of the things that 121 00:07:21.088 --> 00:07:23.820 they hear, and of course they could do it as 122 00:07:24.750 --> 00:07:28.566 mean. It was horrific when you think about that. I know that there's a lady, 123 00:07:28.598 --> 00:07:32.286 Caroline, who I don't know if you've come across her, and 124 00:07:32.388 --> 00:07:36.046 she was one of the first women that transitioned in the 125 00:07:36.068 --> 00:07:38.880 Air Force. Caroline Lawson. Yes. 126 00:07:40.130 --> 00:07:43.482 Must have gone through an incredibly challenging 127 00:07:43.546 --> 00:07:47.018 time and I think it's fantastic. 128 00:07:47.194 --> 00:07:50.926 So have you interviewed her at all? I haven't, no. She's 129 00:07:50.958 --> 00:07:54.658 in America at the moment, I believe. I'm not sure what she's doing, but I 130 00:07:54.664 --> 00:07:57.634 see some of her posts on Facebook and I'm in touch with a few people 131 00:07:57.672 --> 00:08:01.014 in the Marines, few people in the army, people who are 132 00:08:01.052 --> 00:08:04.838 ex EMT drivers and things like that. So yeah, I'm in 133 00:08:04.844 --> 00:08:08.602 touch with a few people who are in the services now and who 134 00:08:08.656 --> 00:08:11.962 probably went through that early stage of their career being 135 00:08:12.016 --> 00:08:15.514 closeted as a trans person, which 136 00:08:15.552 --> 00:08:19.146 yeah, is a real struggle. And I can imagine that 137 00:08:19.248 --> 00:08:23.086 that freedom of civic life again allows you 138 00:08:23.108 --> 00:08:26.846 to burst out. Yeah, absolutely. And I think I 139 00:08:26.868 --> 00:08:30.318 know that when I used to speak to my friend, and he would say his 140 00:08:30.404 --> 00:08:33.966 biggest fear was being outed. Some 141 00:08:33.988 --> 00:08:37.746 people's fear is spiders being outed, because it was that 142 00:08:37.768 --> 00:08:41.406 feeling of loss, of control, that you're doing something that you're passionate 143 00:08:41.438 --> 00:08:45.206 about, that you know you're good at, you're at the top of your game, and 144 00:08:45.228 --> 00:08:48.086 yet somebody could take that all away by 145 00:08:48.268 --> 00:08:52.006 choosing to out you. And 146 00:08:52.108 --> 00:08:55.766 even when the rules change, he didn't actively come 147 00:08:55.788 --> 00:08:59.402 out for about a year just because he just didn't feel 148 00:08:59.456 --> 00:09:03.050 happy to do that yet. And then culture started to change 149 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:06.954 enormously, and thank goodness he did and could be his 150 00:09:06.992 --> 00:09:10.586 true self. But the stress that creates is 151 00:09:10.608 --> 00:09:14.286 enormous. Yeah, as you say, the 152 00:09:14.308 --> 00:09:18.046 culture change does take a while to permeate. You can't just change the law, change 153 00:09:18.068 --> 00:09:21.886 the rules, change regulations, and if it snaps into place no, 154 00:09:21.988 --> 00:09:25.310 you've got that old school thinking, haven't you? But that's the same in any organisation, 155 00:09:25.390 --> 00:09:29.022 isn't it? I mean, if you look at, say, blame 156 00:09:29.086 --> 00:09:32.738 culture, let's look at aviation as a whole. They have 157 00:09:32.824 --> 00:09:36.466 transitioned from a blame culture in the 1990s, whereby we 158 00:09:36.488 --> 00:09:40.070 never learned anything, to a really open learning 159 00:09:40.140 --> 00:09:43.878 culture now. But that does not happen overnight. You can't just write a 160 00:09:43.884 --> 00:09:47.638 policy, as you say, change the Queen's regulations and say, okay, everyone's going to 161 00:09:47.644 --> 00:09:50.858 be abide by these rules, because ultimately, people have got 162 00:09:50.944 --> 00:09:54.426 preconceived ideas. That's the way it always 163 00:09:54.528 --> 00:09:58.246 was. And it's only as you start to see new blood 164 00:09:58.278 --> 00:10:02.074 coming through, I think, and also that 165 00:10:02.112 --> 00:10:05.866 you start to see evidence of, for example, a woman in a man's 166 00:10:05.898 --> 00:10:09.338 world, she can do the job just as well as the men. Yes. It doesn't 167 00:10:09.354 --> 00:10:13.086 make any gender is irrelevant, and it really is. And it was only when you 168 00:10:13.108 --> 00:10:16.926 start to see that going through, that people started to sort of change their mindset 169 00:10:16.958 --> 00:10:20.754 as well. So did you find that 170 00:10:20.872 --> 00:10:24.658 as an early woman in that environment, that you were still coming across a 171 00:10:24.664 --> 00:10:27.870 very male only environment in terms of bunks 172 00:10:27.950 --> 00:10:31.458 barracks, messes and things? Yeah, completely, 173 00:10:31.544 --> 00:10:35.366 utterly. I mean, when I used to go out to the Gulf, because 174 00:10:35.388 --> 00:10:38.918 I served on Operation well, three different operations out in 175 00:10:38.924 --> 00:10:42.554 Iraq, basically, we were all in this 176 00:10:42.592 --> 00:10:46.426 port cabin, basically, together with this awful air conditioning system. I 177 00:10:46.448 --> 00:10:49.914 won't even go through that. But, I mean, we were all in there together. Again, 178 00:10:49.952 --> 00:10:53.774 that didn't massively bother me. There was one toilet at the end 179 00:10:53.812 --> 00:10:57.626 of each corridor. No male, no female. You've 180 00:10:57.658 --> 00:11:01.374 got 39 men and me, so you're not going to have a toilet to yourself. 181 00:11:01.492 --> 00:11:05.226 Again, didn't bother me. When you're queuing for the showers, you're 182 00:11:05.258 --> 00:11:08.946 all standing in your towels waiting for the two showers, and 183 00:11:08.968 --> 00:11:12.274 I've just got a towel wrapped around the top half and they've just got run 184 00:11:12.312 --> 00:11:15.890 around the bottom half. And again, I'd just be standing, having conversations 185 00:11:15.970 --> 00:11:19.494 with them and it didn't see to bother me. The one thing that I 186 00:11:19.532 --> 00:11:22.200 did not like was 187 00:11:23.530 --> 00:11:27.298 purposeful, slightly vindictive actions, 188 00:11:27.394 --> 00:11:31.094 and that is the thing I cannot tolerate. So every time 189 00:11:31.132 --> 00:11:34.826 I went out to the Gulf, I was always given the room by the 190 00:11:34.928 --> 00:11:38.698 we have a pre deployment group that go out there and it's a bit of 191 00:11:38.704 --> 00:11:42.314 a joke. I mean, the men had a lot of pornography on the walls, fair 192 00:11:42.352 --> 00:11:46.126 enough, everyone's choice is their own, but they would always give the room with 193 00:11:46.148 --> 00:11:49.898 the most pornography on the walls, to me, literally 194 00:11:50.074 --> 00:11:53.774 plastered. It was like wallpaper and the ceiling. And I'd walk in and go, oh, 195 00:11:53.812 --> 00:11:57.486 really? Again? And they did it three years running. And I would strip 196 00:11:57.518 --> 00:12:00.174 all the porn off the walls, put it all in a pile outside the door 197 00:12:00.222 --> 00:12:03.954 and yell porns up. The first 198 00:12:03.992 --> 00:12:07.538 time I just thought, oh, gosh, that was unlucky that I got that room. 199 00:12:07.704 --> 00:12:11.270 Well, it wasn't unlucky that I got it the second and the third year, 200 00:12:11.340 --> 00:12:14.994 and the guy in the room next door who's 201 00:12:15.122 --> 00:12:18.810 sitting there in a room with no pornography on the walls and 202 00:12:18.880 --> 00:12:22.442 things like that annoyed me. And there was a few 203 00:12:22.496 --> 00:12:26.310 occasions with very sort of slight underhand comments, 204 00:12:26.390 --> 00:12:29.882 a little bit of bullying started. And I'll be really 205 00:12:29.936 --> 00:12:33.742 honest, on my first tour out there, it really got to me because 206 00:12:33.876 --> 00:12:37.646 I'd worked so hard to achieve this goal. Five years of the 207 00:12:37.668 --> 00:12:41.386 most intensive flying training pretty much anywhere in the world, you get to fly 208 00:12:41.418 --> 00:12:45.186 on operations, you're out there, you're thinking, I've made it. And then it's the 209 00:12:45.208 --> 00:12:48.020 most lonely world you can ever imagine because 210 00:12:48.630 --> 00:12:52.434 male and female conversation is really different. And there was only 211 00:12:52.472 --> 00:12:56.306 so much football and politics I wanted to talk about, and I'd be 212 00:12:56.328 --> 00:12:59.954 sort of craving female conversation. And at the time, it was 213 00:12:59.992 --> 00:13:03.670 before mobile phones, and we had this 120 minutes phone call that you could use, 214 00:13:03.740 --> 00:13:06.886 you could split it up, but it was like on a card. And I would 215 00:13:06.908 --> 00:13:10.566 ring my boyfriend, who I'm now married to my husband, and I go, you have 216 00:13:10.588 --> 00:13:13.754 got three minutes, I need to speak to women for the rest of the time. 217 00:13:13.792 --> 00:13:17.526 And I go, I'm fine. Everything okay with you. Goodbye. And then I'd be straight 218 00:13:17.558 --> 00:13:21.354 on to just talk to me about some normal stuff, like just normal 219 00:13:21.402 --> 00:13:25.246 conversation. And I found that probably hit 220 00:13:25.268 --> 00:13:28.400 me harder, bizarrely than most things actually out there. 221 00:13:28.850 --> 00:13:32.526 Yeah, I can remember my time in the 222 00:13:32.548 --> 00:13:36.070 field service sort of side. It was a very blokey, beery, 223 00:13:36.250 --> 00:13:39.380 rugby clubby type mentality all the time. 224 00:13:40.230 --> 00:13:43.426 Lots of male humour and male banter going on. And how did you feel? Did 225 00:13:43.448 --> 00:13:46.854 you feel you fitted into that? At the time, I was 226 00:13:46.892 --> 00:13:49.880 1617, 1819, sort of years old. 227 00:13:50.810 --> 00:13:54.646 I had confusion in my head, but at that time 228 00:13:54.668 --> 00:13:58.438 in my life, I guess it didn't really bother me. 229 00:13:58.604 --> 00:14:02.442 I was already socialised into that environment and you just get on with it. 230 00:14:02.496 --> 00:14:06.186 I think one of the things of basic training is it strips away your 231 00:14:06.208 --> 00:14:10.038 independent thinking. Some of it, isn't it? You get up, the tannoy 232 00:14:10.054 --> 00:14:13.082 goes off, you jump out of bed, you get in the shower, you do everything, 233 00:14:13.136 --> 00:14:15.838 you make your bed up, you get on the playground or you get on and 234 00:14:15.844 --> 00:14:19.626 do whatever you've got to do. So there is not a time to think. You're 235 00:14:19.658 --> 00:14:23.454 always being driven. Yeah, I think that is very fair thing to say, actually, is 236 00:14:23.492 --> 00:14:27.280 that I did realise that at one point 237 00:14:27.730 --> 00:14:31.406 we were in America and we were on a big exercise and I was wearing 238 00:14:31.438 --> 00:14:34.706 a dress and we were going out for dinner as a squadron, and I'd made 239 00:14:34.728 --> 00:14:37.886 quite an effort. I mean, you and I earlier were just talking about makeup. I'd 240 00:14:37.918 --> 00:14:41.506 actually put some makeup on, which was like, oh, my goodness, I wasn't 241 00:14:41.538 --> 00:14:45.206 wearing the flying suit, the grow bag. And one of the 242 00:14:45.228 --> 00:14:48.006 guys, sort of, who was a French guy, said, oh, Mandy, you're looking beautiful. And 243 00:14:48.028 --> 00:14:50.786 the guy next to me went, Slapped. And went, you can't say that to Mandy, 244 00:14:50.818 --> 00:14:54.326 she's one of the boys. And he turned back with this sort of Gaelic shrug 245 00:14:54.358 --> 00:14:57.500 and went, You Brits, you have so much to learn about women. 246 00:14:58.190 --> 00:15:01.822 And it was a really lovely moment, though, because it became, in my own mind, 247 00:15:01.876 --> 00:15:05.406 probably quite a pivotal moment. I think up to that point, 248 00:15:05.508 --> 00:15:08.926 I hadn't realised just how much I had 249 00:15:09.108 --> 00:15:12.750 tried to be one of the boys. And you mentioned 250 00:15:12.820 --> 00:15:16.366 a really poignant word right at the start. Fitting 251 00:15:16.398 --> 00:15:20.242 in, belonging. There's two very different things on there 252 00:15:20.296 --> 00:15:23.534 and I know that when we talk about things like diversity, 253 00:15:23.582 --> 00:15:27.310 inclusion, diversity is what we have and inclusion is what we do 254 00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:31.046 with it, isn't it? And I think up to that point, I had been 255 00:15:31.148 --> 00:15:34.774 trying desperately to fit in. I was being more 256 00:15:34.812 --> 00:15:38.514 blokey than I probably should have done. I was swearing 257 00:15:38.562 --> 00:15:42.042 so much more, I was drinking a lot more 258 00:15:42.096 --> 00:15:45.722 than I would have probably done normally in a different 259 00:15:45.776 --> 00:15:49.162 career. And I was just sort of in that whole 260 00:15:49.296 --> 00:15:53.114 alpha male blokey environment. And when this guy said, 261 00:15:53.152 --> 00:15:56.846 she's one of the boys, I suddenly thought, oh, my 262 00:15:56.868 --> 00:16:00.654 goodness, I actually am trying too hard to be one of the boys. And 263 00:16:00.692 --> 00:16:03.838 I think it was in that point I realised that I had to 264 00:16:04.004 --> 00:16:07.746 actively make a decision not to be one of the 265 00:16:07.768 --> 00:16:11.586 boys, but to maintain who I was. I still wanted to be a 266 00:16:11.608 --> 00:16:15.426 woman, but just in a man's world. And I could do that, but 267 00:16:15.448 --> 00:16:18.134 it was going to take a little bit more strength of character to find that 268 00:16:18.172 --> 00:16:21.906 belonging rather than just fitting in. That's 269 00:16:21.938 --> 00:16:25.718 really interesting you say that because when I went through the early stages of 270 00:16:25.724 --> 00:16:29.514 my own transition, I found mixing in all 271 00:16:29.552 --> 00:16:32.906 female groups. I found it really awkward to start with 272 00:16:33.008 --> 00:16:36.666 because the conversations wasn't just the 273 00:16:36.688 --> 00:16:40.394 conversation. It's the way women talk to each other is so completely different and 274 00:16:40.432 --> 00:16:43.466 alien to the way men talk to each other. And it took me a long 275 00:16:43.488 --> 00:16:46.846 while to resocialize myself into an environment where I could be one of the 276 00:16:46.868 --> 00:16:50.654 girls, because I felt an outsider to start with. And I 277 00:16:50.692 --> 00:16:54.530 remember probably about a year or two in using the word 278 00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:58.306 we as we women. And I felt really self 279 00:16:58.328 --> 00:17:01.460 conscious about looking around, is anyone going to call me out on this? 280 00:17:02.230 --> 00:17:05.966 And I felt so kind of relaxed afterwards, because I'd 281 00:17:05.998 --> 00:17:09.734 suddenly accepted that I was part of we, not part of 282 00:17:09.772 --> 00:17:13.526 other. And that was a real build. So I can only equate to 283 00:17:13.548 --> 00:17:17.190 what you were saying is you always felt the outsider in the we, 284 00:17:17.260 --> 00:17:20.870 if you like. Yeah. And I think when you're going through it, you 285 00:17:20.940 --> 00:17:24.762 don't really realise it so much. It's only when you 286 00:17:24.816 --> 00:17:28.586 start to leave that environment. And yours is a lot more recent than 287 00:17:28.608 --> 00:17:32.330 mine. So, I mean, mine was sort of 20 odd years ago now, and 288 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:36.218 I think doing what I do now as a speaker. And actually, when I wrote 289 00:17:36.234 --> 00:17:40.078 my book, it was very cathartic in many ways, and a 290 00:17:40.084 --> 00:17:43.086 lot of people say that, don't they, when they write books, that it becomes quite 291 00:17:43.108 --> 00:17:46.446 a cathartic experience, because you're going through all of those memories and you're 292 00:17:46.478 --> 00:17:49.954 reliving that time. And I can only 293 00:17:49.992 --> 00:17:53.582 imagine, actually, because you're so right. Women's conversation 294 00:17:53.646 --> 00:17:56.706 is so different and it's 295 00:17:56.738 --> 00:18:00.402 fascinating. I see it when, bizarrely, 296 00:18:00.466 --> 00:18:04.114 my husband, he really enjoys female conversation 297 00:18:04.242 --> 00:18:07.606 probably more than male conversation. And if I'm going on a girl's night out, he 298 00:18:07.628 --> 00:18:11.082 always goes, Can't I come? Because he really much 299 00:18:11.136 --> 00:18:14.874 prefers it, because he just said, women speak about so many 300 00:18:14.912 --> 00:18:18.666 more interesting things. And I think that is changing a bit 301 00:18:18.688 --> 00:18:21.978 more now as men are 302 00:18:22.064 --> 00:18:25.886 realising they don't have to be this alpha male character, they don't have to be 303 00:18:25.908 --> 00:18:29.758 this grower, testosterone filled individual. They can be themselves 304 00:18:29.844 --> 00:18:33.534 and therefore they can say, I hope, more and more. And that's why I love 305 00:18:33.572 --> 00:18:37.266 it that mental health is so high on the agenda these days, because people are 306 00:18:37.288 --> 00:18:40.862 saying, Actually, I'm feeling really low, and it opens up their dialogue 307 00:18:40.926 --> 00:18:44.642 rather than everything, you know, and it's much 308 00:18:44.696 --> 00:18:48.478 more sort of frivolous, not very deep conversation. Yeah. It's 309 00:18:48.494 --> 00:18:52.034 very superficial, isn't it? I'm all right. You're all right? We haven't a beer type 310 00:18:52.072 --> 00:18:55.750 stuff, isn't, isn't it? Exactly. Seen the football recently and it's know, 311 00:18:55.820 --> 00:18:59.606 whereas Craig always goes, oh, I love it. Women get straight in there and 312 00:18:59.628 --> 00:19:02.726 they get sort of know, really into deep conversations much 313 00:19:02.828 --> 00:19:06.602 more. Yeah. And even men talking about their children is much more 314 00:19:06.656 --> 00:19:10.074 functional, sort of I took them to the rugby, I took them to here, and 315 00:19:10.112 --> 00:19:13.498 it was almost like the things you did with them, rather than how they're succeeding 316 00:19:13.514 --> 00:19:17.146 or how they're thriving, how they're growing and developing. I love the fact that you're 317 00:19:17.178 --> 00:19:21.018 using all those positive words, whereas often when I've described I'm 318 00:19:21.034 --> 00:19:24.642 living with teens. So, yeah, I'm like, 319 00:19:24.696 --> 00:19:28.500 what a nightmare. Have they managed to not be excluded from school? 320 00:19:29.190 --> 00:19:32.770 He actually finishes tomorrow and all I'm just thinking 321 00:19:32.840 --> 00:19:36.566 of is no more seeing the school's phone number coming up 322 00:19:36.588 --> 00:19:40.070 on my phone, thinking, what's he done this time? My 323 00:19:40.220 --> 00:19:43.954 heart foot drops every time. My daughter 324 00:19:44.002 --> 00:19:47.506 is 30 in 325 00:19:47.548 --> 00:19:51.260 January. She gets married in six weeks. 326 00:19:54.830 --> 00:19:58.346 Did she get a booking okay? Yes, she had to cancel last 327 00:19:58.368 --> 00:20:02.126 year. They had to postpone it a year. And she's got a hold for 328 00:20:02.308 --> 00:20:06.094 a date next year. Right. Fingers crossed. This is Plan 329 00:20:06.132 --> 00:20:09.374 A and everything's going to happen in five weeks time, so it's looking 330 00:20:09.412 --> 00:20:13.022 good. A white wedding or white wedding? 331 00:20:13.086 --> 00:20:16.514 Yes, white wedding. She's got it all planned. She's got 70 guests in 332 00:20:16.552 --> 00:20:20.174 a converted barn with all the drapes and the chair 333 00:20:20.222 --> 00:20:21.620 backs and beautiful. 334 00:20:24.070 --> 00:20:27.398 So I'm going to be giving her away in a kind of a 335 00:20:27.404 --> 00:20:30.850 nontraditional way, which is fantastic. 336 00:20:31.010 --> 00:20:34.454 Yeah. No, that is great, isn't it? Yeah, I'm very 337 00:20:34.492 --> 00:20:38.306 proud. I'm really proud of her. She's an amazing independent. 338 00:20:38.498 --> 00:20:41.850 She's a self made as anyone is self made. She's built her own career, 339 00:20:42.670 --> 00:20:46.506 she's a manager of an early years, not really 340 00:20:46.528 --> 00:20:50.266 a playgroup early years education establishment that takes children from two 341 00:20:50.288 --> 00:20:53.886 years upwards as a manager. So she 342 00:20:53.908 --> 00:20:57.646 trains people on boards people, fires people, mentors and looks after 343 00:20:57.668 --> 00:21:01.166 people and deals with parents. So, yeah, she's got her own 344 00:21:01.188 --> 00:21:04.866 career. That you learn and you realise very quickly it's all about the people 345 00:21:04.968 --> 00:21:08.770 managing the people, isn't it? Rather than just the business. It is. 346 00:21:08.840 --> 00:21:12.626 My son is 25, so I'm well beyond he's an 347 00:21:12.648 --> 00:21:16.360 It consultant, so he works for a big company. 348 00:21:17.370 --> 00:21:20.866 Working almost exclusively, remotely at the moment is a remote 349 00:21:20.898 --> 00:21:23.960 only good stuff. 350 00:21:24.330 --> 00:21:27.510 Yeah, I'm well beyond hiding the homework. 351 00:21:29.930 --> 00:21:33.050 I've got all those memories of getting these phone calls. 352 00:21:34.430 --> 00:21:37.558 We think we put your child back on the rails and have this big conversation, 353 00:21:37.654 --> 00:21:41.434 this big expectation setting, and you think, Right, we've cracked it this time, 354 00:21:41.472 --> 00:21:44.886 and you just assume everything's smooth again. It's not, is it? No, never. My husband, 355 00:21:44.918 --> 00:21:48.618 I the whole time going, what have we done so wrong? But all I'm 356 00:21:48.634 --> 00:21:51.886 thinking upon thinking is, they were both really nice before the teens and I'm sure 357 00:21:51.908 --> 00:21:55.518 they'll both come back. And in fact, my older son, we're seeing in fact, we're 358 00:21:55.534 --> 00:21:58.962 seeing signs of them both coming back. No, I do. 359 00:21:59.016 --> 00:22:02.626 Jest. But there have been challenging times, 360 00:22:02.728 --> 00:22:06.146 especially in lockdown. I think everything was just 361 00:22:06.168 --> 00:22:10.018 put under a magnifying glass, wasn't it? Of course, suddenly you've 362 00:22:10.034 --> 00:22:13.734 got teenage boys that are designed to not want to be 363 00:22:13.772 --> 00:22:17.526 with their parents and here you are. Anyone fancy a game of 364 00:22:17.548 --> 00:22:20.680 Risk? It's like, Why would we want to do that? 365 00:22:22.250 --> 00:22:25.480 I spent, what, four years away after school, 366 00:22:26.250 --> 00:22:29.998 joined the RAF and then came out and then came back to living with my 367 00:22:30.044 --> 00:22:33.566 parents. And that was the worst thing I ever did, because we're not designed to 368 00:22:33.588 --> 00:22:36.730 fly and come back again. No, I know, and I think that was the worst. 369 00:22:36.810 --> 00:22:39.838 So many are struggling at the moment, isn't it? When they're boot, they call them 370 00:22:39.844 --> 00:22:43.262 the boomerang generation, isn't it? Because it's just a nightmare with 371 00:22:43.316 --> 00:22:46.580 university fees to pay back and 372 00:22:47.030 --> 00:22:50.802 trying to save any money for a deposit and everything is really tough, really 373 00:22:50.856 --> 00:22:54.258 tough for them. So, going back to your time in the 374 00:22:54.264 --> 00:22:57.750 RAF, you obviously held officer rank, so 375 00:22:57.900 --> 00:23:01.634 you automatically had authority over a number of people, and that respect 376 00:23:01.682 --> 00:23:05.158 comes with the rank, et cetera. But did you ever find that you were being 377 00:23:05.324 --> 00:23:08.674 maybe seated differently as a female 378 00:23:08.722 --> 00:23:12.266 officer? Did people not take you as seriously? Did the 379 00:23:12.288 --> 00:23:16.090 ranks still recognise you as an officer at that time? I'll be honest, 380 00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:20.038 no, I didn't, actually. I think I was really quite lucky on 381 00:23:20.064 --> 00:23:22.030 that respect, to be honest. Joanne 382 00:23:23.650 --> 00:23:27.486 I think for myself, I know it's going to sound 383 00:23:27.508 --> 00:23:31.006 a bit funny. Height helps. I'm quite a 384 00:23:31.108 --> 00:23:34.786 larger than life character. And so I 385 00:23:34.808 --> 00:23:38.514 think when you're six foot tall, you come across as 386 00:23:38.552 --> 00:23:42.222 being very confident as well that you almost command 387 00:23:42.286 --> 00:23:46.078 a level that's not sort of if you're 388 00:23:46.094 --> 00:23:49.886 five foot tall and perhaps you're a lot quieter, that's quite hard if you're 389 00:23:49.918 --> 00:23:53.286 then taking on an entire or talking to an entire group of men. So I 390 00:23:53.308 --> 00:23:56.120 never really had a problem with that. And I think when I got to the 391 00:23:57.530 --> 00:24:01.130 of, we talked about authenticity being really important. I've always been 392 00:24:01.280 --> 00:24:04.938 who I am. What you see is what you get with me. And 393 00:24:05.104 --> 00:24:08.874 it's been really nice, actually, recently, because when I left the Air 394 00:24:08.912 --> 00:24:12.700 Force, I started doing keynote speaking, and 395 00:24:13.170 --> 00:24:16.718 one of the best pieces of advice I ever got was this from this guy, 396 00:24:16.884 --> 00:24:20.414 Alan Chambers, and he was an Arctic explorer, ex Royal Marine, oh, 397 00:24:20.532 --> 00:24:24.318 great, great character. And I was talking to him and I said, how do 398 00:24:24.324 --> 00:24:27.438 I get into becoming a speaker? And he just said to me two words. And 399 00:24:27.444 --> 00:24:31.006 I was, you know, thinking of, like, the names of agents. He went be 400 00:24:31.028 --> 00:24:33.966 yourself. And I went, oh, God, is there not more to it than that? He 401 00:24:33.988 --> 00:24:37.814