Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I've interviewed a number of
Joanne Lockwood: amazing people and simply had a conversation about the subject of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better
Joanne Lockwood: place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future,
Joanne Lockwood: then please do drop me a line to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: That's S-E-E, Change Happen dot co dot
Joanne Lockwood: uk. You can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify
Joanne Lockwood: and the usual places. So plug in your headphones,
Joanne Lockwood: grab a decaf and let's get going.
Joanne Lockwood: Today is episode 43 with a title of
Joanne Lockwood: freedom for everybody, and I have the absolute honor and privilege
Joanne Lockwood: to be joined by Lulu Mintz. Lulu says she is
Joanne Lockwood: a rebel radio podcaster, an award winning coach,
Joanne Lockwood: and a retreat specialist. And when I asked Lulu to describe
Joanne Lockwood: her superpower, she said she is a challenger by
Joanne Lockwood: nature. Hello, Lulu. Welcome to the show.
Lulu Mintz: Hi, Joanne. It's really good to be with you. And it's always interesting for a
Lulu Mintz: challenger by nature to be interviewed rather than interviewing.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes. I suppose it is. Yeah. Beyond the other other end of the,
Joanne Lockwood: of the mic, so to speak. We've been talking about getting you on the show
Joanne Lockwood: for a couple of months now, and finally, pleased we've, managed to achieve
Joanne Lockwood: it on this beautiful sunny day in the middle of June. Fantastic. Yeah.
Lulu Mintz: Absolutely. Yeah. It's quite tempting to do it in the garden.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes. I know. It'd be lovely, wouldn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? I think I must bring up my studio out there. Mhmm. So tell me,
Joanne Lockwood: you we we called this episode freedom for everybody. What
Joanne Lockwood: does that mean to you? Oh, it's such a good question. It means
Lulu Mintz: so much to me, actually, and you probably know as well when you kind of
Lulu Mintz: do work on yourself, when you run a business as a consultant,
Lulu Mintz: etcetera, looking at your values, freedom's always been a really core
Lulu Mintz: value of mine. Jo much so. You know, I was a criminal
Lulu Mintz: defense lawyer before doing what I do now and, you know, literally fought for people's
Lulu Mintz: freedom from incarceration, if you like. So when I was really
Lulu Mintz: doing work on myself, quite a lot of emotion came up for me as
Lulu Mintz: to how important freedom is. And I've always used the word
Lulu Mintz: rebel in my branding and, you know, all all rebels, you know, want
Lulu Mintz: freedom. But I often say all she rebels, don't
Lulu Mintz: just want freedoms for themselves. They want freedom for everybody else.
Lulu Mintz: And I feel like, you know, as a society and in humanity right
Lulu Mintz: now, we're really on a tipping point of exploring what that
Lulu Mintz: looks like and, how we can move forward with that and
Lulu Mintz: really looking at how much women have to contribute to the narrative of
Lulu Mintz: freedom for everyone. So it really is a call that runs through
Lulu Mintz: everything I do and everything I always have done. But I
Lulu Mintz: mentioned that kind of emotional piece. I've always felt as well a certain
Lulu Mintz: degree of rejection for being a rebel, for being a challenger by
Lulu Mintz: nature, and always, you know, running running forward
Lulu Mintz: with with freedom above anything else really
Lulu Mintz: for myself and for other people.
Joanne Lockwood: That must have been, I suppose, as a rebel, must have been tricky being a
Joanne Lockwood: defense story at times because you must have seen some
Joanne Lockwood: injustice, and you must be fighting for
Joanne Lockwood: people that maybe were,
Joanne Lockwood: in the marginalized section of society who didn't
Joanne Lockwood: have, if you like, their human rights being protected and that
Joanne Lockwood: must have been quite frustrating for you at times. Yeah, it
Lulu Mintz: was. Luckily kind of when I started, I was a bit, you know, green behind
Lulu Mintz: the ears or wet behind the ears or whatever they call it. So, you know,
Lulu Mintz: I was kind of still learning the ropes. But certainly, as I became more
Lulu Mintz: confident and self assured in, you know, you know, being
Lulu Mintz: vocal in court and knowing that I was right about certain
Lulu Mintz: things, I did become increasingly frustrated with what I was
Lulu Mintz: seeing and and more powerful in what I was saying and
Lulu Mintz: advocating for, but also really more frustrated in
Lulu Mintz: in seeing the kind of systems it were for for what it was, which was
Lulu Mintz: a big part of me leaving actually because I kind of felt like I have
Lulu Mintz: to become part of this system to to really flourish
Lulu Mintz: more than I had done already and I refused to do that. Jo,
Lulu Mintz: yeah, it it was it was tough tough to watch, and I learned a
Lulu Mintz: lot, but was glad that I left when I did.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm gonna ask you a leading question now. Why was it
Joanne Lockwood: frustrating for you? Was it is it that the process itself is
Joanne Lockwood: steeped in privilege and bias, or is
Joanne Lockwood: it just that traditional or old school nature or
Joanne Lockwood: maybe the it's a man's world still in the in the legal system? Yeah. It
Lulu Mintz: was kind of all of it really thrown in, and it it took, you know,
Lulu Mintz: departing from it to really start to unpick that. I I didn't
Lulu Mintz: even notice. I was probably naive in some ways, you know, growing up in Brighton,
Lulu Mintz: which there's a lot of diversity and inclusion and, you know, my parents are very
Lulu Mintz: unconventional, and I've always kinda gravitated to,
Lulu Mintz: maybe groups that are marginalized for whatever reason. And,
Lulu Mintz: I was probably naive being a woman in that field. I
Lulu Mintz: thought, you know, growing up, you know, the world's your oyster. You can do whatever
Lulu Mintz: you want. And it was only on leaving reflection
Lulu Mintz: that I kind of recognized, oh, actually, I was told to tone it down, not
Lulu Mintz: be aggressive, not to be too assertive because it
Lulu Mintz: wasn't taken very well, that that was actually because I
Lulu Mintz: was a woman and I was female in in that role. And that didn't
Lulu Mintz: really occur to me at the time. It massively frustrated me, but I didn't
Lulu Mintz: really almost put the 2 and 2 together that that's why I was
Lulu Mintz: having that experience. And, actually, the more confident I became,
Lulu Mintz: the more I was getting that feedback that that actually wasn't
Lulu Mintz: acceptable in my role. And I was
Lulu Mintz: confused by that because I was a defense lawyer. I'm like, isn't that what I'm
Lulu Mintz: supposed to be doing, being a challenger by night shift? Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: So is that is that the the system, if you like,
Joanne Lockwood: not valuing strong women. It's they want
Joanne Lockwood: women to behave in a feminine way, not in a a more masculine way. Is
Joanne Lockwood: that was that was that the the challenge? Yeah. Absolutely. And I would
Lulu Mintz: even have, you know, men, that I that didn't
Lulu Mintz: work for you know, in my firm, they were not my
Lulu Mintz: boss, etcetera, would intervene potentially or or
Lulu Mintz: feel that they had something to say about, say,
Lulu Mintz: conversation that me and a prosecutor were having in court. They would just, like, intervene
Lulu Mintz: or, you know, treat me like their employee or or you shouldn't say that. We
Lulu Mintz: know you should back off a bit, etcetera. And, you know, I would
Lulu Mintz: always, again, stand stand up for myself within that. But, you
Lulu Mintz: know, again, it became really frustrating, to do
Lulu Mintz: any, you know, have having to bring a certain energy to deal with that on
Lulu Mintz: a daily basis, was actually quite exhausting.
Joanne Lockwood: A classic mansplaining. Absolutely. Absolutely. And as we
Lulu Mintz: know, women in those positions tend to leave before, you know,
Lulu Mintz: those promotional I was head of department. I left before partnership, and that is the
Lulu Mintz: classic moment of when women leave. I think often it's looked at
Lulu Mintz: of women having children and things like that. There's so it's so much deeper than
Lulu Mintz: that. I don't have children. That wasn't the reason. Yet, you
Lulu Mintz: know, there's lots of women I know that that leave for all sorts of
Lulu Mintz: reasons that they can't necessarily articulate at that time.
Joanne Lockwood: So you're a rebel at heart. And as you said to your
Joanne Lockwood: you came from a rebel family. Your parents are kind of nonconventional. You spent a
Joanne Lockwood: lot of time growing from Brighton, which I think Westfield would would describe as
Joanne Lockwood: a fairly nonconventional place to live as well.
Joanne Lockwood: So you you found freedom by by moving as well, didn't you? You relocated
Joanne Lockwood: to the west country? Yeah. Yeah. We've always actually, as a family come on
Lulu Mintz: holiday down to the west country and St. Ives in particular, you know,
Lulu Mintz: for the artist scene. It's always quite a bohemian scene. The
Lulu Mintz: surrealist artists used to come to Cornwall as well. So,
Lulu Mintz: again, I've always felt quite an affinity with the West Country, and we do
Lulu Mintz: as a family. So, but that's quite a recent Lockwood, but I previously lived
Lulu Mintz: in Manchester, London, and and things like that. But,
Lulu Mintz: yeah, I grew up with a lot of, artistic inspirations.
Lulu Mintz: Frida Kahlo, Carlo, Lee Miller. I don't know if she's familiar to you as a
Lulu Mintz: surrealist photographer, and, a lot of
Lulu Mintz: music as well. So I'm super grateful for that. I guess my rebelling against my
Lulu Mintz: parents was to get a conventional job, which was interesting.
Joanne Lockwood: So a double rebel. So you're probably against the rebels.
Lulu Mintz: Exactly. Yeah. We're well in with my father because he's a musician is
Lulu Mintz: to like rubbish music, and that would really upset him, you know, like ordering the
Lulu Mintz: Backstreet Boys because they run a music shop. So, you know, ordering something terrible.
Lulu Mintz: Again, conventional would be would be a form of rebelling.
Lulu Mintz: So, you know, it was a kind of flip on its head for rebellion in
Lulu Mintz: that sense.
Joanne Lockwood: Excellent. So you you say you've, run
Joanne Lockwood: retreats. Tell tell me a bit more about those retreats and and what goes
Joanne Lockwood: on. What's the purpose? Yeah. I first when I started coaching,
Lulu Mintz: you know, again, it was a real heart based decision. I wanted to run a
Lulu Mintz: retreat for the women that I coach in Morocco because, again, Morocco is quite
Lulu Mintz: unconventional. I love it. And, so I hosted
Lulu Mintz: my first retreat in Morocco in 2017, which was amazing.
Lulu Mintz: I didn't make it easy for myself, however, you know, because just even, you know,
Lulu Mintz: paying the re ads and, you know, it it it's not on on home turf.
Lulu Mintz: It's a very different place for for those people that have been to Morocco, although
Lulu Mintz: a beautiful place. And, yeah, I really wanted to create that
Lulu Mintz: that space for women. You know, again, it it has
Lulu Mintz: many women don't have the luxury of time. I was reading an article the other
Lulu Mintz: day and doing a lot of research about this, particularly with coronavirus and the
Lulu Mintz: pandemic. You know, again, a lot of childcare, housework, etcetera,
Lulu Mintz: has fallen on women within the home having to drop their businesses.
Lulu Mintz: And an article saying, you know, that women don't haven't previously had the luxury
Lulu Mintz: to develop their genius, as, say, you know,
Lulu Mintz: Carl Jung, Sigmund Freud, etcetera,
Lulu Mintz: you know, really, really had this gift of a luxury of time. And I've noticed
Lulu Mintz: over the past 5, 6 years working with women, they don't often
Lulu Mintz: feel that they deserve time either and
Lulu Mintz: retreats really give women that that space and time, you know, over
Lulu Mintz: 72 hours, 3 days. And I I've noticed over the last
Lulu Mintz: 5 years hosting retreats that the women I work with really come back to me
Lulu Mintz: and go, it was the retreat that changed absolutely everything for me.
Lulu Mintz: So this year, I may be crazy, but, you know, being a rebel at heart,
Lulu Mintz: we're doing 3 retreats in post pandemic. Fingers crossed we
Lulu Mintz: can do them, but we've had to that we've had to move previously. And, know,
Lulu Mintz: we work with such incredible women that are happy to do it whenever
Lulu Mintz: we'll do it later date. And it hasn't been you know, there's been a lot
Lulu Mintz: of admin with it, but it's well worth creating that that
Lulu Mintz: space for women to work on themselves and their businesses.
Joanne Lockwood: It's a really interesting thought where you say
Joanne Lockwood: women often don't feel they have the time for themselves and
Joanne Lockwood: or they don't make time because there's always this kind of self
Joanne Lockwood: pressure to keep going, to find something else to do,
Joanne Lockwood: and stopping almost feels like you're letting somebody else down,
Joanne Lockwood: wherever that may be, your family, your work, or or
Joanne Lockwood: whatever that may be, your children, and and stopping and taking time for yourself is
Joanne Lockwood: really hard thing to do. And certainly women who are maybe
Joanne Lockwood: entrepreneurs or in very busy lives and careers, it's really hard to
Joanne Lockwood: stop, isn't it? Yeah. It is. And I think, you know, as
Lulu Mintz: women, we feel super connected, don't we? That it's that it's
Lulu Mintz: that connection to everything and everyone that
Lulu Mintz: to disconnect and focus, you know, on
Lulu Mintz: ourselves or on that one thing, whether you've got children or not,
Lulu Mintz: can can feel like a much, you know, harder thing to do. And,
Lulu Mintz: you know, as you say, it's it's giving yourself permission to actually do
Lulu Mintz: that which is really important and, educating women to
Lulu Mintz: do that because, actually, when women burn out, everyone
Lulu Mintz: else around them is affected because of that massive connection and, you
Lulu Mintz: know, nurture that we have for for
Lulu Mintz: others. Mhmm.
Joanne Lockwood: Because, certainly certainly, if you like, the home admin side of it is
Joanne Lockwood: everlasting, isn't it? Where it's there's always something to do, and I think
Joanne Lockwood: where we're not careful, we almost feel because
Joanne Lockwood: we're the buck stop for a lot of lot of lot of activities, a lot
Joanne Lockwood: of tasks. And if if we don't do them, nobody's gonna do them. And if
Joanne Lockwood: if we take a time out, they're still there when we get back as well.
Joanne Lockwood: So we we feel this kind of must do little and often all the time,
Joanne Lockwood: all the time, all the time. And even taking a break and having
Joanne Lockwood: half hour in front of the telly just zoning out of reading a book,
Joanne Lockwood: often you have to make that time that, because it doesn't come
Joanne Lockwood: natural. I'm certainly experiencing that myself. Yeah.
Lulu Mintz: Definitely. And there's a lot of talk, you know, now, isn't there? It's quite trendy
Lulu Mintz: to talk about self care and and, you know, things like that. And it really
Lulu Mintz: is a personal journey for every everyone and every
Lulu Mintz: woman in particular because there tends to be more of a battle with that.
Lulu Mintz: And, you know, it really does self care and takes some doing. We Joanne
Lulu Mintz: really focus and think it's about the being, which it is, but it takes some
Lulu Mintz: doing. And I often say to clients, you know, if it's not in your diary,
Lulu Mintz: it's not going to happen. So for me, no one messes with my
Lulu Mintz: yoga schedule and that goes in my diary first before
Lulu Mintz: anything and anyone that goes in my diary because then I
Lulu Mintz: know I can serve everyone and, with what they need at a much
Lulu Mintz: deeper level when I have filled myself first. And I learned
Lulu Mintz: that the whole way by being a defense lawyer for 11 years.
Lulu Mintz: And, again, I wasn't just with my clients. I wasn't just their lawyer. I was
Lulu Mintz: lawyer, secretary, mother, social worker, PA,
Lulu Mintz: you know, you name it, whatever they needed, you
Lulu Mintz: know, which is why I was successful when a popular lawyer is choice
Lulu Mintz: for many of my clients who were in and out of the criminal justice system.
Lulu Mintz: But there was not a lot left for me by the end of
Lulu Mintz: that. And it took me some recovery time.
Joanne Lockwood: Jo when you're working with your female solopreneurs,
Joanne Lockwood: leaders, what are the biggest challenges you find that they're that
Joanne Lockwood: they're trying to tackle in their life? Is it is it just imposter
Joanne Lockwood: syndrome and limiting beliefs, or is there is there far more than that? Oh, far
Lulu Mintz: far more than that. But, you know, in a good way, I you know,
Lulu Mintz: some of it is really positive as well. Lack of time is massive.
Lulu Mintz: You know? I create really powerful self study courses for women that are
Lulu Mintz: really short and, you know, short and bite sized deliberately
Lulu Mintz: that you could take 5 minutes today, 10 minutes today, or just do it once
Lulu Mintz: a week and and still make progress. But, again, this lack of time thing
Lulu Mintz: is massive. Lack of confidence and lack of permission
Lulu Mintz: to themselves to really actually do
Lulu Mintz: things in the way that they may want to do them and to do things
Lulu Mintz: differently. Again, women can tend to be conditioned to not
Lulu Mintz: break the rules and to, you know, follow
Lulu Mintz: things and do more of what they are
Lulu Mintz: supposed to in inverted commas. And I can't remember. My background's in,
Lulu Mintz: criminology as well. So I think it's called double deviance. So if we a
Lulu Mintz: woman breaks the rules, it's not only the rule she's broken. It's
Lulu Mintz: the it's it's the rule of being female and a woman that she's broken
Lulu Mintz: as well. So there's there's a double punishment, if you like, and that's evident in
Lulu Mintz: the criminal justice system and it's also, you know, evident in
Lulu Mintz: corporate positions, etcetera, if a woman doesn't
Lulu Mintz: follow follow the protocol and the processes. So
Lulu Mintz: women can spend a lot of time double checking themselves to make sure
Lulu Mintz: they've got things right,
Lulu Mintz: which is exhausting, ultimately. Imagine all that time and energy
Lulu Mintz: that could be spent you know, on on doing other things
Lulu Mintz: instead.
Joanne Lockwood: Did you believe that's nature or nurture? Is this how women are
Joanne Lockwood: socialized from a young age, to be compliant, to
Joanne Lockwood: be rule protectors of rule setters? Yeah.
Lulu Mintz: That age old question. I've spent my lifetime studying that nature or nurture question,
Lulu Mintz: I think. And and I really do think, you know, I I think it's a
Lulu Mintz: mixture of both, but I definitely think nurture is
Lulu Mintz: really, really strong. And, you know, but also nature,
Lulu Mintz: it's been proven more and more that we carry ancestral trauma from
Lulu Mintz: from, you know, our ancestral line
Lulu Mintz: of, you know, previous experiences that that family members and staff have
Lulu Mintz: have had. So I find that fascinating and really, really
Lulu Mintz: interesting. And then even when I look at my own upbringing, which I said is
Lulu Mintz: very unconventional, I've got 2 sisters, you know, very,
Lulu Mintz: very female dominated family, if you like.
Lulu Mintz: Me and my sister were talking about the other day the films that we used
Lulu Mintz: to watch and some of the children's books. We used to read, My Naughty Little
Lulu Mintz: Sister, and she's reading it to her daughter at the moment, who's only 5. And
Lulu Mintz: she said, I'm horrified that the the boy Harry is just
Lulu Mintz: being a boy, and the girl is being very rude and very
Lulu Mintz: naughty. So she's like, Ayla's loving it, but I'm actually wanting to
Lulu Mintz: stop reading it to her. We used to love those books.
Joanne Lockwood: It's interesting how, generations Joanne, and we look back at
Joanne Lockwood: some of the stuff that we're now feeding our children in horror
Joanne Lockwood: around the stereotyping and how we
Joanne Lockwood: that yesteryear almost, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It is. And I don't know. Do you
Lulu Mintz: remember Barbara the Elephant? Did you ever used to read those books?
Joanne Lockwood: Yes. I remember Barbara Lisman. Yeah. Yeah. But I went to
Lulu Mintz: yeah. I went to a talk, an International Women's Day a couple of years ago
Lulu Mintz: in Brighton, and there was a chef, and I can't remember her name, but she
Lulu Mintz: opened the cannabis kitchens in Brighton and she she'd come out of banking
Lulu Mintz: and she was saying that, you know, when she entered, you know, the the
Lulu Mintz: chef industry, that women were cooks and men were chefs. And I was like, oh
Lulu Mintz: my god. I was sitting there going, I've never thought about that before, but, yeah,
Lulu Mintz: maybe that's right. And then I went to my friend's house. We were trainee lawyers
Lulu Mintz: together. She's got 2 little boys, and I was reading her older little boy who
Lulu Mintz: was 3 at the time, Barbara the elephant. He comes over to me with this
Lulu Mintz: book, and Barbara the elephant is doing, like, a cooking
Lulu Mintz: thing in this book. And at the end of the book, I get to the
Lulu Mintz: last page. I had a fit by it, but the boy elephant barber
Lulu Mintz: got a chef's hand. All the girls got pink bows. And I
Lulu Mintz: said to her, I was like, Melanie, this book,
Lulu Mintz: what on earth and what is this showing the boys? And she said, oh, god.
Lulu Mintz: I've never really thought about it. And, you know, that, again, that was a book
Lulu Mintz: from our childhood. All the front cover was wrinkled. You know, it was a really
Lulu Mintz: old book. So, again, we had this kind of conversation of
Lulu Mintz: of of, you know, those subtle, subtle messages which are
Lulu Mintz: everywhere despite parenting that might
Lulu Mintz: be different. I mean, even classics. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Paddington Bear. All of the main characters in
Joanne Lockwood: Paddington Bear are men who are going out to work, and
Joanne Lockwood: the women are either activists with banners or posters or
Joanne Lockwood: or at home. It's Mhmm. Those classic
Joanne Lockwood: stories are bought were written and created at a
Joanne Lockwood: time where that was the gender norms. And Yeah. We've been
Joanne Lockwood: feeding ourselves this for generations. Yeah. And I think
Lulu Mintz: it's Disney Yes. I've looked at some of the Disney cartoons.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's not I think Frozen was the first
Lulu Mintz: film where a girl was rescued by another girl, I e, her
Lulu Mintz: sister. And I think the now there's some there's some there's Brave and
Lulu Mintz: Moana isn't there, and there's a good few ones. And my 2, older
Lulu Mintz: nephews were saying to my niece the other day, I think it was at Christmas
Lulu Mintz: or whenever it was, of she wanted to watch Brave. And they were like, oh,
Lulu Mintz: no. It's rubbish. And I I went they always know I'm always on the rant,
Lulu Mintz: about something like that. I was like, there were not films like this for girls.
Lulu Mintz: We were young. She's watching it, You know? Blah blah
Lulu Mintz: blah. And, yeah. But, you know, it feels it feels good that they're they're
Lulu Mintz: quite naive to that. But at the same time, we do kind of educate
Lulu Mintz: them that, you know, women haven't always had this privilege
Lulu Mintz: and and these wrong role models. You know, it's so important that we have those
Lulu Mintz: role models, isn't it?
Joanne Lockwood: Mhmm. Yeah. I I do get a bit frustrated sometimes with Hollywood
Joanne Lockwood: that the the female led action movies are
Joanne Lockwood: women just trying to be men, trying to live up to male stereotypes.
Joanne Lockwood: And, this I think Charlie Sewan did a couple of
Joanne Lockwood: really good ones, Atomic, I can't remember the name of the film. I was wondering,
Joanne Lockwood: Atomic, wasn't it? And, Atomic Blonde. You think, wait. You're actually
Joanne Lockwood: watching it. It's just Atomic Blonde. Yes. It was a feat strong
Joanne Lockwood: female character lead, but she was really
Joanne Lockwood: not behaving as, well, as a
Joanne Lockwood: as a as a as a woman in that well, just behaving as a man.
Joanne Lockwood: It was that I the it was it was an action hero as a woman
Joanne Lockwood: rather than a woman being an action hero. And I think that was that's what
Joanne Lockwood: the difference we gotta change is that we we create new
Joanne Lockwood: genres and new new roles for
Joanne Lockwood: women that are women being women, not women acting like men. That's
Lulu Mintz: that's part of the problem we're trying to fix. Yeah. I think that's that's, you
Lulu Mintz: know, the real challenge. And, again, I felt in the legal
Lulu Mintz: profession, you know, climbing the banks as it were, and it's no disrespect to
Lulu Mintz: any of the women that were kind of ahead of me, but, again, I saw
Lulu Mintz: that. I didn't feel particularly supported by by women in the field, unfortunately.
Lulu Mintz: But bar 1, who wasn't at the same firm, but,
Lulu Mintz: you know, there there weren't those role models for me. And
Lulu Mintz: I was kind of looking for women, you know, who are partners and things like
Lulu Mintz: that and thinking, oh, are you sure that's a fit for me? So I
Lulu Mintz: really felt like I didn't really have anywhere to go with it. And I I
Lulu Mintz: have a course actually. It's it's called the 24 principles to feminine success,
Lulu Mintz: and it's something that I've taught for around 5 years. And it was actually really
Lulu Mintz: hard for me to articulate at the time. I just kind of had a download
Lulu Mintz: about it. I was like, oh my god. This is really important. And I I
Lulu Mintz: still teach it now. It runs through g level radio, the podcast, and,
Lulu Mintz: you know, it it's really about how we introduce more feminine based principles
Lulu Mintz: into positions of leadership whilst honoring the masculine ones as well because we
Lulu Mintz: all have masculine and feminine energy, but we've been taught that
Lulu Mintz: more masculine based principles and
Lulu Mintz: more powerful than the than the feminine ones. And I often
Lulu Mintz: say the suppression of women also has equal to the suppression
Lulu Mintz: of the feminine and feminine based principles which we really
Lulu Mintz: need to introduce back in to bring balance and harmony in. And when I started
Lulu Mintz: looking at those principles, I was like, this is the reason the world's such a
Lulu Mintz: mess. You know? Climate change, you know, poverty, all of
Lulu Mintz: this stuff. But at the same time,
Lulu Mintz: it's very important to not, you know,
Lulu Mintz: really blame the masculine principles as well because
Lulu Mintz: then we perpetuate more of the same problem.
Joanne Lockwood: I think I was watching on telly last night or the other night about
Joanne Lockwood: this role of they now have a role on film sets and TV programs called
Joanne Lockwood: the intimacy coach that helps define
Joanne Lockwood: the boundaries and barriers between between
Joanne Lockwood: actors on on set and what is they can they they
Joanne Lockwood: negotiate, what is appropriate or inappropriate for their
Joanne Lockwood: own personal space. And I I was
Joanne Lockwood: like amazed that we're we're down to that level of now,
Joanne Lockwood: having to help women create these boundaries because
Joanne Lockwood: they're often put in uncomfortable situations by male
Joanne Lockwood: directors or male costars or whatever it may be. And,
Joanne Lockwood: it's really interesting to see that the intimacy coaches, they're an integral part
Joanne Lockwood: of filmmaking. Oh, wow. That's that's that's
Lulu Mintz: incredible. But what does that yeah. That's quite horrifying
Lulu Mintz: what that shows in terms of in terms of it's funny.
Lulu Mintz: Someone put something on LinkedIn. It was a good couple of years ago now, but
Lulu Mintz: I think it might have been around the me too movement of, you
Lulu Mintz: know, business networking when we were allowed to be in the same room,
Lulu Mintz: which we haven't been for quite some time, you know, to is it
Lulu Mintz: acceptable to give someone a hug and a kiss, you know, and all of
Lulu Mintz: that. And it's such it's so important we're having those conversations,
Lulu Mintz: but then it's kind of I don't know. It's kinda sad at the same time
Lulu Mintz: because I'm I'm not if there were if there were too many rules put
Lulu Mintz: in, you know, that that's just as human beings, we're not that linear.
Lulu Mintz: It really is, you know, but but for me
Lulu Mintz: Oh. Part of that is, you know, I'm
Lulu Mintz: very empathetic Jo I can read a situation like that and and know
Lulu Mintz: what's appropriate and what isn't. And I appreciate that a lot of other people don't
Lulu Mintz: and they find that more difficult. And, again, I only leaving the legal profession
Lulu Mintz: really saw that as a massive strength that I have because I watch, you know,
Lulu Mintz: other lawyers and people, and I could see a situation that was gonna
Lulu Mintz: escalate over the in the courtroom. You know, by the way, the lawyer was
Lulu Mintz: talking to the client, etcetera, but I was never told at school or
Lulu Mintz: when you look at skill sets and things of, like, oh, you're massively empathetic.
Lulu Mintz: You're really good at tuning in with people, you know, going straight straight in with
Lulu Mintz: what they need because, again, they're more more feminine based. It's a more
Lulu Mintz: feminine based skill set, you know,
Lulu Mintz: traditionally, and it's just not something that's
Lulu Mintz: valued. So why would you why would you be told that?
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. It's interesting. The hug and the kiss is a greeting, isn't it?
Joanne Lockwood: That awkward social situation with it. Is it one kiss on the cheek? Is
Joanne Lockwood: it 2? We'll be going French and doing 3 or that that
Joanne Lockwood: that hug that lasts for half a second too long? And you you
Joanne Lockwood: Joanne wait feeling kind of like, oh, that was a bit bit
Joanne Lockwood: unnecessary. Yeah. Yeah. And then creepy feeling you get sometimes.
Lulu Mintz: Yeah. We've all been there. A little bit. Yeah. Well, I I had it, you
Lulu Mintz: know, historically with some of my, you know, criminal clients, bless them.
Lulu Mintz: You know? And I had a really good relationship with many of my clients because
Lulu Mintz: they were regulars. You know? But I I remember a few of them in
Lulu Mintz: slow motion, you know, getting a a good result in court. And then
Lulu Mintz: a client, you know, sometimes they weren't very well washed and, you know,
Lulu Mintz: drug addicts and things like that that that wasn't the physical contact. It
Lulu Mintz: was something I really didn't want or need. But, yeah, it was it was
Lulu Mintz: in slow motion. I remember a few of that. So it's it's difficult, isn't it?
Lulu Mintz: But now we've got coronavirus kind of elbow
Lulu Mintz: bumps and and things like that. But as humans, it's so important that we do
Lulu Mintz: need physical contact. Maybe not in a business setting,
Lulu Mintz: but then in it was some business relate I've had those business relationships with some
Lulu Mintz: people like that and not others. It's it's all about us learning to
Lulu Mintz: read situations and and communicate, really.
Lulu Mintz: Communication's key.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I do recognize that subtle physical
Joanne Lockwood: contact is a way of creating a bond, is a way of showing,
Joanne Lockwood: understanding affection wherever it may be, but some of it is
Joanne Lockwood: is steeped in patriarchy, isn't it? That that
Joanne Lockwood: that that touch of the elbow, that press in the back in the small of
Joanne Lockwood: your back, you first type type, gesture.
Joanne Lockwood: Some of those are are very patronizing in a
Joanne Lockwood: way and reinforcing male power, male privilege, and it's
Joanne Lockwood: quite unless you unless you step back and and see
Joanne Lockwood: it and have experience at some at some point and be aware of
Joanne Lockwood: it, you just think it's polite societal thing, but it is
Joanne Lockwood: reinforcing that that power imbalance. Yeah. It really is.
Lulu Mintz: And I remember again me always being a challenge when I was only a trainee
Lulu Mintz: lawyer in London. And one of our trainers, he wasn't
Lulu Mintz: a partner at that point, but with one of the other trainees,
Lulu Mintz: tapped her on the head.
Lulu Mintz: And I you know, we all used to go to the pub together and things
Lulu Mintz: like that. And I was like, don't you know, because we were friends as well,
Lulu Mintz: and I always had a bit of a big mouth. But I I was like,
Lulu Mintz: don't, you know, tap her on the head like she's you know, and I went
Lulu Mintz: off on one about it because, again, I didn't like what I saw
Lulu Mintz: because it was kind of, well, you know, you and, you know, it was quite
Lulu Mintz: a while ago, I guess, I entered the legal profession. But not that long ago,
Lulu Mintz: it there were all sorts of comments of, I washed you down there,
Lulu Mintz: all of that kind of stuff, which was so inappropriate, but I
Lulu Mintz: became so used to it. And then you build a certain, like,
Lulu Mintz: barrier around yourself. You know? If I was probably at
Lulu Mintz: times more serious than I needed to be and because I had to
Lulu Mintz: or felt like I had to get control of a situation so I
Lulu Mintz: wouldn't become, as a young female,
Lulu Mintz: the butt of all the Jo. I wanted to be taken
Lulu Mintz: seriously. So, you know, it's, you have I
Lulu Mintz: felt like I had to bring a certain amount of energy into a room to
Lulu Mintz: ensure that happened. And, ultimately,
Lulu Mintz: that exhausted me after 11 years. I was, just exhausted of doing it all
Lulu Mintz: the time.
Joanne Lockwood: That's the bringing your whole self to work sort of
Joanne Lockwood: metaphor, isn't it, where you have to put this mask on, you have to wear
Joanne Lockwood: this suit of armor, and you can't be the relaxed, real
Joanne Lockwood: you because you've got to think about what's going on around you all the
Joanne Lockwood: time. Yeah. You have. In the last 2, I wanted to leave for about
Lulu Mintz: 2 years. I knew I knew I felt there was a whole world of
Lulu Mintz: different things going on out there and the legal system's quite archaic and old
Lulu Mintz: fashioned. And I felt I'd go to my office in the morning and pick up
Lulu Mintz: my files caught and I felt this, oh, here it goes. I could suddenly become
Lulu Mintz: aware of this kind of energy that I needed
Lulu Mintz: to this mask, this armor I needed to put on to deal with the
Lulu Mintz: day ahead. And, you know, not forgetting you know, I'm
Lulu Mintz: not just blaming, you know,
Lulu Mintz: male lawyers, police officers. You know, it's a very masculine environment. Not to forget,
Lulu Mintz: I was dealing with, you know, rapists, murderers, you know, all of that kind of
Lulu Mintz: stuff. So I I had the whole I was going into I went into my
Lulu Mintz: first prison at the age of 19, very patriarchal institution,
Lulu Mintz: you know, the the way they're designed, etcetera. Jo, you know, but it
Lulu Mintz: really did did have an impact. And as I said, I'm
Lulu Mintz: naturally empathetic and very
Lulu Mintz: sensitive by nature and all of that. And I'd even forgotten that about myself because
Lulu Mintz: I'd had to, you know, keep all of that away
Lulu Mintz: from me.
Joanne Lockwood: So you you said when we're chatting, earlier on that
Joanne Lockwood: you're a feminist, a rebel feminist, and
Joanne Lockwood: I'm assuming you're a 4th wave feminist. It's around equality for
Joanne Lockwood: all, not this is not around a protest. This is about
Joanne Lockwood: creating equitable spaces so that gender norms
Joanne Lockwood: are kind of erased, if you like, and and everybody
Joanne Lockwood: for creating a society that's fair and equal for all. Is that is that how
Joanne Lockwood: you see it? Yeah, absolutely. It definitely is how
Lulu Mintz: I see it and I, you know,
Lulu Mintz: we can't solve a problem with the same thinking that created it.
Lulu Mintz: So, you know, I'm I'm very and that's why I'm very passionate as well about
Lulu Mintz: bringing in more feminine based principles in terms of, you know, I
Lulu Mintz: see inclusivity and oneness is a very feminine based principle
Lulu Mintz: and and a more masculine principle is division and separation. But that
Lulu Mintz: has its purpose. Right? We need to divide and separate ourself to
Lulu Mintz: identify what thought is ours compared to someone else's, etcetera. But
Lulu Mintz: when we live in a world that values that more than
Lulu Mintz: the inclusivity and the and the oneness, you know, then we
Lulu Mintz: get disaster that we we we've kinda been facing for
Lulu Mintz: for a long time. So, you know, that inclusivity does still
Lulu Mintz: include men. You know, they still need to be included in the conversation. And
Lulu Mintz: that's why I always say, you know, every every she rebel, that's my version of
Lulu Mintz: feminism, you know, wants freedom not just for herself, but for everybody else.
Lulu Mintz: And, you know, it's really important because we're seeing a lot at the moment. We're
Lulu Mintz: talking a lot about diversity, but what I'm really not seeing is
Lulu Mintz: inclusivity of diversity of opinion because that is just
Lulu Mintz: not allowed right now. It's you're either Brexit or you're not. You're either
Lulu Mintz: pro getting the the corona jab or you're not.
Lulu Mintz: You know, that's all division and separation. And when we get too much of
Lulu Mintz: that, you know, we're never gonna solve these problems. We really need
Lulu Mintz: to respect and and be in
Lulu Mintz: you know, create safe spaces for conversations where
Lulu Mintz: people are entitled to have an opinion
Lulu Mintz: and to have a different value system to you. Like, be open to that.
Lulu Mintz: It's really important that we can do that.
Joanne Lockwood: How do we get men to step up?
Joanne Lockwood: When we saw it around, the tragic killing
Joanne Lockwood: and murder of Sarah Everard and the,
Joanne Lockwood: the heightened awareness of violence against women and girls, and then the
Joanne Lockwood: hashtag not all men started. But then,
Joanne Lockwood: yes, but it is all women. It was kind of the retort.
Joanne Lockwood: We have I mean, I've been at events which talk about
Joanne Lockwood: promoting women in leadership, creating gender equality in the workplace. And
Joanne Lockwood: I was on a panel in San Francisco looking out into the room in this
Joanne Lockwood: this session around advancing women in organizations.
Joanne Lockwood: And there was out of 4, 500 people in the room, there were about 8
Joanne Lockwood: men. So it was women attending these
Joanne Lockwood: forums to promote gender equality, not
Joanne Lockwood: the men. And, you know, I'm a great believer that you have to involve
Joanne Lockwood: the incumbent, the person with privilege or or or hold the
Joanne Lockwood: keys if you like in this conversation. So whilst we as women
Joanne Lockwood: talk about it, if we're not involving men, we can't make progress.
Lulu Mintz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so difficult. I think it's,
Lulu Mintz: at the same time, exclusion is the key to diversity. That's I can't remember
Lulu Mintz: who who made that quote as well because people say to me, why do you
Lulu Mintz: just host retreats for women? And and I'm like, because it's a very different conversation
Lulu Mintz: that happens when when women come together and actually, you
Lulu Mintz: know, there there's not been many platforms for women to do that, and,
Lulu Mintz: many women can learn very differently in in a different setting. And what
Lulu Mintz: I've noticed is and and we definitely need to include more men in the
Lulu Mintz: conversation. And there was a post of mine actually on LinkedIn
Lulu Mintz: the other day and there was lots of men commenting and I was talking about
Lulu Mintz: feminine principles and it was great to see. I really don't think, you know,
Lulu Mintz: more corporate based men would have understood that even 5 years
Lulu Mintz: ago. So there's really an an an opening with that. But I feel like
Lulu Mintz: one thing as well that I would really love to see when men are included
Lulu Mintz: in the conversation because I see this time and time again is is
Lulu Mintz: often you can have that say, you know, there's a room full
Lulu Mintz: of 40 women. And this was an event I was at the Canadian
Lulu Mintz: embassy with a coach that I work with, and she was talking about women and
Lulu Mintz: our access to capital in business. Around
Lulu Mintz: 40 women in the room, 2 men. The
Lulu Mintz: voice of 1 guy was around 25% of that
Lulu Mintz: room. I couldn't even go and speak to that person when we were
Lulu Mintz: networking afterwards because I was quite furious because I was like, this is
Lulu Mintz: a platform for women to vocalize how they feel
Lulu Mintz: about accessing capital and funding for their business. It's a room for them to
Lulu Mintz: vocalize how they don't feel that their voices are heard. It's a room for them
Lulu Mintz: to vocalize they've been told to deepen their voice to be taken more seriously. You
Lulu Mintz: know? And and he did and I I also, again, me being massively empathetic,
Lulu Mintz: felt super sorry for him. Power dressing. Yeah. Exactly.
Lulu Mintz: Sorry for him that he didn't even realize because he's so used to it. Mary
Lulu Mintz: Beard talks about this, you know, of we see authoritative speech
Lulu Mintz: as male, that he came in and and he had the right to that room.
Lulu Mintz: That's how he felt. Came in in the suit. He had the right to that
Lulu Mintz: room. He had the right to the opinion. He had a voice that
Lulu Mintz: deserved to be heard. And, you know, so we we do need to
Lulu Mintz: invite men into the conversation, but we also need to make sure that the women's
Lulu Mintz: voices is are still heard within within those rooms.
Lulu Mintz: That's the biggest key.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, it's it's often, it's like
Joanne Lockwood: criticizing the the lion for eating the antelope. It wasn't
Joanne Lockwood: actually that man's fault. That was how he was
Joanne Lockwood: bred, bought up. That's how he he's had to fight in
Joanne Lockwood: a man's world to always be told to get your point
Joanne Lockwood: across, be assertive, speak up, express your views,
Joanne Lockwood: and fight your corner. And men don't think
Joanne Lockwood: in a way where they they they listen first, understand the room,
Joanne Lockwood: and then talk later. They feel they've got the right to have that opinion, because
Joanne Lockwood: that's how advanced in a male's in a man's world. Yeah. That's their
Lulu Mintz: that's their birth fight. So don't criticize the lion.
Lulu Mintz: Yeah. Yeah. No, exactly. That's their perception. That's what we've changed, how we nurture
Joanne Lockwood: our young boys. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Lulu Mintz: Absolutely. It's, yeah. And, Mary Beard, I don't know if you've read
Lulu Mintz: Women in Power. You know, she talks about odyssey and,
Lulu Mintz: you know, coming back from war and, you know, the
Lulu Mintz: mother comes down and wants to say something, and the little boy sends her away.
Lulu Mintz: Go away, mother. This isn't a place for you here. You
Lulu Mintz: know, we we've grown up with this, you know, Roman Greek literacy
Lulu Mintz: running through so many things. And, again, that's another subtle message that
Lulu Mintz: that has been there for such a long time. You know, and that that's
Lulu Mintz: even a woman in the home, let alone, basically, Jo
Lulu Mintz: actually on the wall or the war zone and and and all of that kind
Lulu Mintz: of stuff. So, you know, and I really do I've got a a self study
Lulu Mintz: course, which is called the 3 keys to self actualization, which is around self
Lulu Mintz: securitized, self authorized, and self express. And I'm yet to
Lulu Mintz: take a woman through that process Jo matter where she is on her journey, even
Lulu Mintz: if she really is empowered, that hasn't had major breakthroughs
Lulu Mintz: of, you know, the because as women, that
Lulu Mintz: conditioning of security comes outside of you, authority comes outside of you,
Lulu Mintz: and it's not really okay to fully express who you
Lulu Mintz: are and what it is that you've got to say because there there's that
Lulu Mintz: subtle message is there somewhere.
Joanne Lockwood: Oh, yeah. I've I've lived a life of of 2
Joanne Lockwood: perspectives, socialized most of
Joanne Lockwood: my life in my previous perspective for 40,
Joanne Lockwood: nearly 50 years. And my wife
Joanne Lockwood: and I are still trying to rewrite the
Joanne Lockwood: boundaries or rewrite the rules in our relationship. And
Joanne Lockwood: despite our best intent, we still have
Joanne Lockwood: kind of gendered or stereotypical roles within within our
Joanne Lockwood: household. And if it requires
Joanne Lockwood: muscle or carrying, it tends to be my job. If it involves driving,
Joanne Lockwood: it tends to be my job. If it if it involves
Joanne Lockwood: more empathy or birthday presents or birthday cards or things
Joanne Lockwood: like that, that tends to be my wife's role or primary role. And we don't
Joanne Lockwood: have a problem with it. It's just how we've how we've grown up together. But
Joanne Lockwood: we're trying to rewrite some of the rules so that I don't
Joanne Lockwood: feel excluded from some of her traditional,
Lulu Mintz: gendered roles in the home, if you like. And I don't want her to feel
Joanne Lockwood: excluded from getting involved for some of the things I used to do, and it's
Joanne Lockwood: trying to share that out. But I off always
Joanne Lockwood: often find we we often thank each other for doing
Joanne Lockwood: things, and it's I think I I don't want to be thanked for taking the
Joanne Lockwood: bin out. It's my role as well. It's kind of we
Joanne Lockwood: we're sharing, and and we're sort of getting used to the idea of it's not
Joanne Lockwood: your role. It's not my role. It's just a job that he's doing. And then
Joanne Lockwood: whichever one of us does that, it's not about thanking.
Joanne Lockwood: It's it's it's acknowledging that that that I just got on and did something that
Joanne Lockwood: needs to be done. And it's a real challenge to to try and rewrite that
Joanne Lockwood: gendered rule book Yeah. In a relationship. Yeah. Yeah. No.
Lulu Mintz: Definitely. It is. It's yeah. And I think, you know, that's why I do
Lulu Mintz: love as well. You know, I practice lots of yoga and definitely spiritual sides
Lulu Mintz: to me and what I do and what I teach, you know, in terms of
Lulu Mintz: that, you know, masculine and feminine energy that, you
Lulu Mintz: know, it can change. It can flow. We can flux. You know? We we can
Lulu Mintz: it is fluid. Right? It's not it's not it's not a
Lulu Mintz: structured system thing that that society
Lulu Mintz: has tried to condition us, to to believe
Lulu Mintz: it is. And, you know, that that can make relationships even more
Lulu Mintz: beautiful in terms of, you know, find finding that what that what that
Lulu Mintz: looks like for each individual and then each, you
Lulu Mintz: know, relationship, coming together is is
Lulu Mintz: really, really powerful. And, yeah, I have, like, my some
Lulu Mintz: feminine flow days, and then I have my more, like, structured, you know,
Lulu Mintz: gotta get shit done kinda day. Sorry. I swore, rebel at heart.
Lulu Mintz: And, yeah, you know, and and really tune in with with where I'm
Lulu Mintz: at and how I'm feeling. And, you know, I think it's really important that we
Lulu Mintz: we we really start to do that.
Joanne Lockwood: Essentially, you you used, a colorful word
Joanne Lockwood: there. Does society still get shocked
Joanne Lockwood: by women using expletives and swearing? Is it kinda seen as a
Joanne Lockwood: kind of I don't yeah. I think they do sometimes. It's not. As a
Joanne Lockwood: man kind of go, yeah. I'd Yeah. Good. That's
Lulu Mintz: alright. That's all. Well, and even, you know, my dad being so open minded, he
Lulu Mintz: would say to us and my 2 oldest sisters, Jo it's not very ladylike yet.
Lulu Mintz: He swears like a trooper. So, you know, we kinda like we learn it from
Lulu Mintz: you, dad. So, you know, but
Lulu Mintz: yeah. No. I do I do think it's I mean, I swear on my podcast,
Lulu Mintz: but it is called She Rebel Radio, so I don't know what your rules are.
Joanne Lockwood: I don't have any rules. This is not
Joanne Lockwood: a a PG show or anything like that. This is just is is
Joanne Lockwood: aimed at business, and people say what they wanna say. No. I
Joanne Lockwood: don't have any rules. If if you want to say shit, you say shit.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, let's avoid some of the the the big the big nasty words
Joanne Lockwood: that What was your name? Graham Norton. It's okay on here, I think. It's probably
Lulu Mintz: the wrong thing. To know. I know. Yeah. And the interesting thing about that word,
Lulu Mintz: shit, as well was it's quite a I I, with
Lulu Mintz: coaching, I'm a multiple brain coach as well, which is head, heart, gut. That's
Lulu Mintz: quite a guttural word, which is a lot where we we place a lot of
Lulu Mintz: our identity and, all of that kind of stuff just as we were talking
Lulu Mintz: about that. Oh, you know, this is male or female. Is it acceptable
Lulu Mintz: in in certain, you know, groups that, yeah, it's an
Lulu Mintz: interesting point.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I mean, I often use, bullshit,
Joanne Lockwood: as a as a as a phrase or or term
Joanne Lockwood: when I'm talking about meritocracy, the bullshit of meritocracy,
Joanne Lockwood: or I'm happy to call out bullshit of something, as
Joanne Lockwood: as as all these sort of kind of business
Joanne Lockwood: societal tropes reach out and go, hang on. That's complete BS. You know? It's
Joanne Lockwood: it's not we we made those rules. We can change those
Joanne Lockwood: rules. Yeah. It's a societal social construct. Yeah. Let's, let's not
Joanne Lockwood: get hang up on that. Yeah. No. It's not just In fact, I I was
Joanne Lockwood: saying I was saying bullshit in my in my own mind this morning. I was
Joanne Lockwood: I was reading this article on the BBC website, a news
Joanne Lockwood: news article around how everybody wants to
Joanne Lockwood: return to the office, and that's what everybody wants to do.
Joanne Lockwood: So then I started unpicking the article, and it was property
Joanne Lockwood: managers. It was leasing companies. It
Joanne Lockwood: was property it was all property companies who had a vested
Joanne Lockwood: interest in setting this narrative that people want to return to the
Joanne Lockwood: office. People need to go to the office to socialize.
Joanne Lockwood: Jo. People don't use to go to the office to socialize. They need to come
Joanne Lockwood: home earlier in the evenings. They don't need to spend 3 or 4 hours commuting
Joanne Lockwood: so they have more home time so they can socialize at home. They can socialize
Joanne Lockwood: in community. And we've we've we've decided that the
Joanne Lockwood: business has evolved based on this paradigm, and this is how
Joanne Lockwood: we've done it. Let's let's say, okay. One of the roots of socialization
Joanne Lockwood: is working together. One of the one of the ways we can learn
Joanne Lockwood: and nurture and coach each other is to be in the same room. But let's
Joanne Lockwood: say the objective is to learn, nurture, and culture, and create socialization.
Joanne Lockwood: Well, how could we do that that's not in the same way? We can give
Joanne Lockwood: enrichment in different ways. We can create more local community hubs. We
Joanne Lockwood: Joanne not spend that 4 or 5 hours
Joanne Lockwood: burning fuel, sitting in traffic jams, trudging on the train,
Joanne Lockwood: destroying our work life balance, eating into our family time, actually
Joanne Lockwood: create a new paradigm that says, let's not propagate that BS
Joanne Lockwood: as the only way of achieving those goals. And that's what I wanna see
Joanne Lockwood: happen where people don't go, well, we gotta go back. That's that's the only way
Joanne Lockwood: we can solve this problem because it's not. No. No. It really isn't. And I
Lulu Mintz: think, you know, any article that says everyone wants
Lulu Mintz: x is just again, like, we
Lulu Mintz: are a diverse, eclectic mix of people. Like, what works
Lulu Mintz: for 1 person is not gonna work for somebody else. But, you know, I
Lulu Mintz: love that people have really had this taste of freedom
Lulu Mintz: that I, you know, myself, opportained when I left the legal
Lulu Mintz: profession coming up 6 years ago, I think, may maybe even be more, maybe
Lulu Mintz: even be 7 at the end of this year that I suddenly got this taste
Lulu Mintz: of freedom that I could go and sit down the beach and, you know, have
Lulu Mintz: my tea in the morning and have time for yoga and walk and,
Lulu Mintz: you know, really create space for myself. And during the 1st
Lulu Mintz: lockdown, I saw that beach kind of, like, fill up, which I was kinda horrified
Lulu Mintz: because I felt like it was my beach at 9 in the morning that all
Lulu Mintz: of a sudden everyone else had access to that. That I think what's not gonna
Lulu Mintz: change is that, you know, people really are seeing
Lulu Mintz: that, actually, freedom is a personal
Lulu Mintz: thing, and we really can create more of it if we don't
Lulu Mintz: follow these really archaic, ridiculous rules, which quite
Lulu Mintz: frankly were created in industrialization as well where we were
Lulu Mintz: sitting, you know, in factories churning out lots of things and, you know, the
Lulu Mintz: education system is very much designed to put us into
Lulu Mintz: the workplace and for us to follow the rules. And
Lulu Mintz: if humanity as a whole is really gonna evolve in the way
Lulu Mintz: that we should, we need to create a lot of more space for creativity.
Lulu Mintz: And, you know, as I said, the the hint there is space. We need
Lulu Mintz: space to learn to think differently, to
Lulu Mintz: have different conversations, and nurture a new way of
Lulu Mintz: being. And we're not gonna do that by sitting in offices for 10 hours a
Lulu Mintz: day and commuting for god knows how long as well.
Joanne Lockwood: I like that. It's I'm a great believer in the
Joanne Lockwood: rise of the artisan, the empowered individual working as
Joanne Lockwood: part of a a team who
Joanne Lockwood: can create. They have time to think, to create,
Joanne Lockwood: to fail fast, to explore
Joanne Lockwood: opportunities and ideas. Okay, not every job role supports
Joanne Lockwood: that level of thinking, but we've gotta recognize that there are a lot of people
Joanne Lockwood: out there who are creative. We've gotta think about a lot of people who are
Joanne Lockwood: able to manage their own work schedule, their own work life balance, and we have
Joanne Lockwood: to allow those people to do that. And I think when we come from this
Joanne Lockwood: command to control presenters presenters and mentality,
Joanne Lockwood: If I can't see you, I can't trust you.
Joanne Lockwood: We've gotta try and break that and and reeducate our leaders
Joanne Lockwood: to see people in a different way. I think that has happened over COVID, but
Joanne Lockwood: I'm still worried that the there are hidden
Joanne Lockwood: agendas of people who want to drive going back to
Joanne Lockwood: the way things were as quick as they Joanne. Mhmm. Yeah. Absolutely.
Joanne Lockwood: Financial, obligations. You know? We want we want the
Joanne Lockwood: rail infrastructure. We want the the underground infrastructure. We want the the hot
Joanne Lockwood: the the the the planes, all of these public transport systems.
Joanne Lockwood: They would become superfluous if, if people didn't
Joanne Lockwood: start using them again. All these road expansions we're doing, and people aren't driving as
Joanne Lockwood: much anymore. So there are some invested
Joanne Lockwood: interests in getting people to start commuting again. Yeah.
Lulu Mintz: There are. And, again, I they they they come from quite
Lulu Mintz: patriarchal masculine roots. And it was once we need those things, because
Lulu Mintz: one thing we did see really flourish with lockdown, etcetera, is
Lulu Mintz: nature, you know, really started to heal herself. We saw
Lulu Mintz: people really connecting with nature for the first time, you know, in a
Lulu Mintz: in a long time. At the same time, when we're having, you know, more natural
Lulu Mintz: words deleted from dictionaries and replaced with, like, technological
Lulu Mintz: words and and things like that. So, you know, and people feeling more
Lulu Mintz: more connected to their home, and their families and and they are
Lulu Mintz: quite feminine feminine based principles and, you
Lulu Mintz: know, that that's really important that that starts to come in and we don't
Lulu Mintz: just go back to the old way of doing things. And if we don't and
Lulu Mintz: I'm really passionate about, you know, nature and all of that stuff, it's been
Lulu Mintz: a big, big part for me in in moving, you know, forward
Lulu Mintz: and doing things differently. And we really need to start looking after
Lulu Mintz: that, you know, otherwise, it wouldn't be a very nice place for any of us
Lulu Mintz: to live.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I've certainly embraced my femininity
Joanne Lockwood: in terms that I now see my strength as the people who
Joanne Lockwood: are next to me and around me. Whereas before maybe I saw my strength
Joanne Lockwood: as people who are beneath me. So so it's a very
Joanne Lockwood: much I prefer that collaborative peer,
Joanne Lockwood: real deep friends and sharing rather than that
Joanne Lockwood: hierarchical, I I I need to achieve a status by and
Joanne Lockwood: this is how I demonstrate my status with with stuff
Joanne Lockwood: and big things and expensive things. It's now all
Joanne Lockwood: about, now all about a more,
Joanne Lockwood: I don't know, a more earthly understanding your place in
Joanne Lockwood: the world, understanding how you how you could influence through collaboration,
Joanne Lockwood: through generosity. Yeah. Through that interconnect.
Joanne Lockwood: Different metaphor that I'm experiencing. Yeah. Through that interconnection
Lulu Mintz: that we were talking about. And again, that's why and I think women flourish so
Lulu Mintz: much at our retreats because, a, we're all surrounded by nature. There's that we we
Lulu Mintz: have, you know, we don't have any more than 8 women, so there's that real,
Lulu Mintz: like, connected piece where everybody is heard. And, you know,
Lulu Mintz: when you compare that to more patriarchal systems and structures within
Lulu Mintz: business, you know, how much do we value when someone's asked to speak at
Lulu Mintz: an event? Oh my god. They're the speaker. Like, they're so prestigious,
Lulu Mintz: you know, etcetera. And I often say and and this probably might might not go
Lulu Mintz: down somewhat that well in some respects of, like, speaking's quite a
Lulu Mintz: masculine principle. Listening is a feminine one. And I will repeat, we
Lulu Mintz: all have masculine and feminine energy. But, you know, if we valued
Lulu Mintz: listening as much as we value speaking,
Lulu Mintz: again, how would things change? And I think that's starting to
Lulu Mintz: shift. You know? I know in coaching profession, we massively value active
Lulu Mintz: listening. And and and sometimes that entails not even fixing a
Lulu Mintz: problem for someone. There's there's a great compassion when you witness
Lulu Mintz: someone wherever they they may be at. That's kind of healing
Lulu Mintz: and helps people move through it itself. But, you know, we we don't
Lulu Mintz: say, oh, you know, we don't congratulate someone for listening
Lulu Mintz: very often.
Joanne Lockwood: That's so true. Yeah, how often do we hear
Joanne Lockwood: a leader say, this is the problem. This is how we think we've just
Joanne Lockwood: solved it. What do you think? That's not that sets
Joanne Lockwood: the scene for kind of nodding group think it doesn't really set
Joanne Lockwood: the scene for, for thinking or challenging. It's
Joanne Lockwood: when people get used to the idea of saying, well, this is the this is
Joanne Lockwood: the challenge we're trying to solve. Who's got some great ideas?
Joanne Lockwood: And then ask people what their ideas are. And then maybe as a leader, don't
Joanne Lockwood: even speak. Don't don't give your opinion. It's
Joanne Lockwood: you're there to collect that diversity of thought, input,
Joanne Lockwood: that creativity, and set people
Joanne Lockwood: set people on that on that path to to doing what they do.
Joanne Lockwood: Otherwise, you might as well just have a a a company full of
Joanne Lockwood: automont automatons or minions just doing your bidding all the
Joanne Lockwood: time. Yeah. Yeah. It's really, you know, asking asking those
Lulu Mintz: powerful questions and and, you know, allowing people, as you say, has come up that
Lulu Mintz: creativity. And, you know, as a coach, I I do that frequently
Lulu Mintz: and, you know, clients that work with me frequently or over a
Lulu Mintz: period of time find themselves going, oh, can I have your feedback? Because I do
Lulu Mintz: give feedback. I'm I'm not a coach that, you know, doesn't give any kind of
Lulu Mintz: feedback and insight because that's, again, part of my power. But, you know, I I
Lulu Mintz: won't give it until they're ready, and they're they've they've gone through the the
Lulu Mintz: process that they need to go to by answering their own questions
Lulu Mintz: and, you know, moving moving that that forward because they always
Lulu Mintz: know the answer to the question. I don't. They do.
Lulu Mintz: And, you know, so Jo do people on teams and and things like that.
Lulu Mintz: If if you give them that space, again, the word space
Lulu Mintz: is so important because transformation happens in the space in between things. And if
Lulu Mintz: we fill it all the time with stuff, then, you know,
Lulu Mintz: things really can't move forward and move through.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I think you also create an environment where you always feel you
Joanne Lockwood: have to ask permission to do something. You always have to ask, am I right
Joanne Lockwood: all the time, rather than just trusting your own judgment,
Joanne Lockwood: trusting your own capability. And I think often we
Joanne Lockwood: create these environments where that's the case, and I've worked in a fight where people
Joanne Lockwood: constantly come into me saying, is this right? Or how do I find that? Or
Joanne Lockwood: or can you tell me the answer to this? And I'm thinking, can you not
Joanne Lockwood: do what I will do, which is Google that or or think about it for
Joanne Lockwood: 10 minutes? And if you're not careful, you you almost, like,
Joanne Lockwood: train people not to think for themselves. And there's a I came
Joanne Lockwood: across this technique that is is colloquially known as rubber
Joanne Lockwood: ducking. So instead of you're you're not allowed to
Joanne Lockwood: ask someone for help until you've stood in front of
Joanne Lockwood: a rubber duck and talked about the problem to this inanimate object.
Joanne Lockwood: And then as a result of this talking to the rubber duck, most people can
Joanne Lockwood: solve their own problem because they've spoken out loud. They're hearing their own thoughts.
Joanne Lockwood: They're having to formulate their thinking to this
Joanne Lockwood: plastic duck on the shelf. And, it's cut
Joanne Lockwood: down in this organization that they're advocating for. It cut down the number of
Joanne Lockwood: questions to to managers or to leaders. It
Joanne Lockwood: increased empowerment, and and it creates a real change of culture where
Joanne Lockwood: people felt they they could bring their own
Joanne Lockwood: ideas and and then what they were saying that everyone has their own
Joanne Lockwood: rubber duck, they buy their own duck, they put up their own shelf, And often
Joanne Lockwood: at times of the day, you look around this office, and there's all these people
Joanne Lockwood: just talking ducks around the office, and it's part of their culture.
Joanne Lockwood: And it it creates that creativity. It allows people to think.
Joanne Lockwood: And so often, yeah, if if you're stuck and you you don't know where to
Joanne Lockwood: go, just buy yourself a rubber duck, stick it on the shelf, and talk to
Joanne Lockwood: it. Yeah. Yeah. No. I think one of my clients was sharing that at one
Lulu Mintz: of our retreats actually because everyone was saying that they were gonna get get themselves
Lulu Mintz: a duck. And I I find because a lot of my clients can come from
Lulu Mintz: quite corporate positions that, you know, and they're setting up their own business consultant
Lulu Mintz: coaching, you know, or doing something more creative. And, you know,
Lulu Mintz: again, there is a real struggle with making decisions, moving things
Lulu Mintz: forward, which, you know, as you know, you have to do when you're running your
Lulu Mintz: own business. I feel quite privileged that I've never really struggled with that because being
Lulu Mintz: a court advocate, I was also a police station representative, so I didn't have
Lulu Mintz: time to call someone and say, oh, what should we do about you know?
Lulu Mintz: And what what advice should I give this client? I had to do it on
Lulu Mintz: my feet all the time, which is a gift Joanne a curse because sometimes I
Lulu Mintz: can make decisions that are too quick and I haven't really thought it through. And
Lulu Mintz: and and I get frustrated if I haven't made the decision really quickly. I'm
Lulu Mintz: like, oh, no. I can't sit with this. I've gotta, but, you know, it's
Lulu Mintz: definitely served me served me really well to have that autonomy,
Lulu Mintz: which is probably why the more office environment and things I struggled
Lulu Mintz: when I couldn't do things my way that I was like, oh, what do you
Lulu Mintz: mean we have to, you know, you know, spend hours talking about it? I used
Lulu Mintz: to get really bored, and that's definitely personality type for me. But
Lulu Mintz: it's, yeah, it's really important that that we and we all so
Lulu Mintz: many of us, I had a story that I wasn't creative because my
Lulu Mintz: mom's an artist, actually. My older sister, you know, used to try and get me
Lulu Mintz: to draw things when I was 4 and told me it wasn't very good because
Lulu Mintz: she was kind of 12 and very talented. And I had
Lulu Mintz: this story because I couldn't draw. I wasn't creative, but we're all creative.
Lulu Mintz: You know, you're creating this podcast, I create my podcast, I'm, I create
Lulu Mintz: courses, I create retreats, I, you know,
Lulu Mintz: create so many things, I love to cook, all of those things.
Lulu Mintz: So, you know, really, really finding whatever
Lulu Mintz: lights, you know, you up creatively. Anyone who's
Lulu Mintz: listening is is really important to nurture that because creativity creates more
Lulu Mintz: creativity and and more of it. And and that's what we need more
Lulu Mintz: of.
Joanne Lockwood: And that probably comes back to something you said at the beginning around
Joanne Lockwood: creating space for women to have time for themselves. Because
Joanne Lockwood: unless you have that time for yourself, that ability to to clear your
Joanne Lockwood: mind, it's very hard to be creative when you're at the coalface
Joanne Lockwood: digging and digging and digging or cooking and cooking or educating and educating,
Joanne Lockwood: whatever you may be doing on a daily basis. That's time for you to
Joanne Lockwood: just blue sky think to relax, just open up. That's
Joanne Lockwood: the challenge, isn't it? It really is. And I don't know if you know aware
Lulu Mintz: of the statistic. It's in the book Invisible Women,
Lulu Mintz: which says that 75% of the world's unpaid work is completed
Lulu Mintz: by women, which is huge. Again, as a criminal defense
Lulu Mintz: law. And that was a punishment handed out in court, unpaid work. It's a community
Lulu Mintz: sentence, mostly for men because there tends to be more men in the criminal justice
Lulu Mintz: system, which is a entire separate conversation. But when I read that
Lulu Mintz: statistic, you know, the amount of mundane tasks that women are tied up
Lulu Mintz: in, which is really preventing them from developing their genius. And
Lulu Mintz: I'm super grateful. You know, I don't have children, etcetera. But
Lulu Mintz: my mom actually, you know, she would really run my parents' business.
Lulu Mintz: She held the purse string. She made a lot of decisions and was a real
Lulu Mintz: role model for me for that. And one of her biggest, you know, amongst many
Lulu Mintz: other things was every working woman deserves a cleaner. She always
Lulu Mintz: had a cleaner. She was like, not only do I support another woman's business,
Lulu Mintz: because women tend to be cleaners. That's just the statistic.
Lulu Mintz: But, b, that really created the space for her. And, again, that's a conversation
Lulu Mintz: I have with a lot of clients. Like, you can scrub your toilet, but you
Lulu Mintz: can actually work on your business. Jo what what what which choice is it gonna
Lulu Mintz: be? And I know the pandemic hasn't helped me. I don't have, you know, allowed
Lulu Mintz: to have peanuts in the house and whatever. But, you know, it really is
Lulu Mintz: important for women, you know, wherever they're at, to have that conversation
Lulu Mintz: with themselves and go, actually, what of these which of these mundane tasks
Lulu Mintz: needs to be done by somebody else so I can focus on my genius, my
Lulu Mintz: evolution, my genius, what I'm here to do because that really is,
Lulu Mintz: you know, why we're here to create change. And you're not
Lulu Mintz: gonna do that by being too involved in the mundane.
Lulu Mintz: That might be your revolution. If it's just that, please do it. And that's
Joanne Lockwood: why going out for a meal yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: But that's why going out for a meal could be so special. You don't have
Joanne Lockwood: to think about preparing it, shopping for it, buying
Joanne Lockwood: it, planning it. You just turn up, eat it and
Joanne Lockwood: then say, buy, and you deal with the
Joanne Lockwood: washing up. And that's that's why it's such a a great
Joanne Lockwood: thing to do is Jo take time out of your life to have a have
Joanne Lockwood: a meal out because it's that's that's time that you would have
Joanne Lockwood: otherwise had to spend doing that yourself. And I think
Joanne Lockwood: that's that's why I would always say even if it's just fish and
Joanne Lockwood: chips on the safe front, it's a way of breaking that
Joanne Lockwood: cycle of here I go again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As you
Lulu Mintz: say, that that important of breaking that cycle of
Lulu Mintz: of the mundane. We have to do, you know, things that we have
Lulu Mintz: to do, but breaking that. And as you say, if it's sit if you're sitting
Lulu Mintz: somewhere beautiful, having fish and chips on the beach, You've saved yourself the
Lulu Mintz: time of thinking about all of that stuff, but you've also, you know, hopefully creating
Lulu Mintz: that space that we're talking about. You know? I know when I feel stuck, I
Lulu Mintz: get up, I go for a walk, I go to the beach, I practice yoga.
Lulu Mintz: That's when my best ideas come. It doesn't come when I sit in front of
Lulu Mintz: my laptop going, right, Lulu is working.
Lulu Mintz: It's when I'm wandering around doing other things.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I completely agree. Oh, I can't believe it. We've been going
Joanne Lockwood: for an hour, just over an hour. Wow. It's been such
Joanne Lockwood: an inspirational and enlightening conversation. We I'm sure we could have carried on for another
Joanne Lockwood: couple of hours without without a break. And now I really, in
Joanne Lockwood: fact, I think you you kind of invited me to be on your podcast. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: looking forward to maybe having a rematch and, and carrying on the
Joanne Lockwood: conversation from me from my perspective. That'd be really interesting. But how can how can
Joanne Lockwood: our listeners get in touch with you? So my
Lulu Mintz: website is, LuliMintz.com, so that's,
Lulu Mintz: super easy to find. She Rebel Radio, the podcast is on
Lulu Mintz: all the usual platforms, Apple, Popin, Spotify.
Lulu Mintz: So that's super easy to find. And, loo I tend to be
Lulu Mintz: Lululemintz on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook. So,
Lulu Mintz: yeah, either Lululemintz or She Rebel Radio, pretty easy
Joanne Lockwood: to find. Fantastic. Thank you so much for your time
Joanne Lockwood: and your contribution. Absolutely amazing. And also a huge
Joanne Lockwood: thank you to you, the listener, for tuning in, listening to the end. Thank you
Joanne Lockwood: so much. And please do subscribe to keep updates on
Joanne Lockwood: future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's
Joanne Lockwood: B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends. Tell your colleagues. I'm sure
Joanne Lockwood: they'd love to join in and listen too. Of course, I've got a number of
Joanne Lockwood: other exciting guests lined up over the next few weeks months.
Joanne Lockwood: So please do. If you subscribe, you'll get notified. Of
Joanne Lockwood: course, if you'd like to be a guest, I'd love to have you on.
Joanne Lockwood: So please email me to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: And, of course, tell me if you've got any ideas or suggestions on how I
Joanne Lockwood: can improve the show. So finally, my name is Joanne
Joanne Lockwood: Lockwood. It's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you
Joanne Lockwood: next time. Bye.