WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.159 --> 00:00:05.920 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the 2 00:00:05.920 --> 00:00:09.764 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I've interviewed a number of 3 00:00:09.764 --> 00:00:13.285 amazing people and simply had a conversation about the subject of 4 00:00:13.285 --> 00:00:17.130 inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better 5 00:00:17.130 --> 00:00:20.910 place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, 6 00:00:21.050 --> 00:00:23.050 then please do drop me a line to 7 00:00:23.050 --> 00:00:25.215 jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 8 00:00:26.875 --> 00:00:30.539 That's S-E-E, Change Happen dot co dot 9 00:00:30.540 --> 00:00:34.095 uk. You can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify 10 00:00:34.540 --> 00:00:38.000 and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, 11 00:00:38.460 --> 00:00:41.120 grab a decaf and let's get going. 12 00:00:42.055 --> 00:00:45.815 Today is episode 43 with a title of 13 00:00:45.815 --> 00:00:49.655 freedom for everybody, and I have the absolute honor and privilege 14 00:00:49.655 --> 00:00:53.430 to be joined by Lulu Mintz. Lulu says she is 15 00:00:53.430 --> 00:00:57.050 a rebel radio podcaster, an award winning coach, 16 00:00:57.190 --> 00:01:00.855 and a retreat specialist. And when I asked Lulu to describe 17 00:01:00.855 --> 00:01:04.455 her superpower, she said she is a challenger by 18 00:01:04.455 --> 00:01:07.835 nature. Hello, Lulu. Welcome to the show. 19 00:01:08.150 --> 00:01:11.670 Hi, Joanne. It's really good to be with you. And it's always interesting for a 20 00:01:11.670 --> 00:01:14.970 challenger by nature to be interviewed rather than interviewing. 21 00:01:19.145 --> 00:01:22.425 Yes. I suppose it is. Yeah. Beyond the other other end of the, 22 00:01:23.145 --> 00:01:26.930 of the mic, so to speak. We've been talking about getting you on the show 23 00:01:26.930 --> 00:01:30.770 for a couple of months now, and finally, pleased we've, managed to achieve 24 00:01:30.770 --> 00:01:34.485 it on this beautiful sunny day in the middle of June. Fantastic. Yeah. 25 00:01:34.485 --> 00:01:37.064 Absolutely. Yeah. It's quite tempting to do it in the garden. 26 00:01:39.604 --> 00:01:43.320 Yes. I know. It'd be lovely, wouldn't 27 00:01:43.320 --> 00:01:47.020 it? I think I must bring up my studio out there. Mhmm. So tell me, 28 00:01:47.159 --> 00:01:50.925 you we we called this episode freedom for everybody. What 29 00:01:50.925 --> 00:01:54.625 does that mean to you? Oh, it's such a good question. It means 30 00:01:54.685 --> 00:01:58.365 so much to me, actually, and you probably know as well when you kind of 31 00:01:58.365 --> 00:02:01.230 do work on yourself, when you run a business as a consultant, 32 00:02:01.850 --> 00:02:05.530 etcetera, looking at your values, freedom's always been a really core 33 00:02:05.530 --> 00:02:09.305 value of mine. Jo much so. You know, I was a criminal 34 00:02:09.305 --> 00:02:13.065 defense lawyer before doing what I do now and, you know, literally fought for people's 35 00:02:13.065 --> 00:02:16.830 freedom from incarceration, if you like. So when I was really 36 00:02:16.830 --> 00:02:20.510 doing work on myself, quite a lot of emotion came up for me as 37 00:02:20.510 --> 00:02:24.245 to how important freedom is. And I've always used the word 38 00:02:24.245 --> 00:02:27.765 rebel in my branding and, you know, all all rebels, you know, want 39 00:02:27.765 --> 00:02:31.525 freedom. But I often say all she rebels, don't 40 00:02:31.525 --> 00:02:35.140 just want freedoms for themselves. They want freedom for everybody else. 41 00:02:35.140 --> 00:02:38.980 And I feel like, you know, as a society and in humanity right 42 00:02:38.980 --> 00:02:42.775 now, we're really on a tipping point of exploring what that 43 00:02:42.775 --> 00:02:46.455 looks like and, how we can move forward with that and 44 00:02:46.455 --> 00:02:50.280 really looking at how much women have to contribute to the narrative of 45 00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:53.980 freedom for everyone. So it really is a call that runs through 46 00:02:54.280 --> 00:02:57.675 everything I do and everything I always have done. But I 47 00:02:57.675 --> 00:03:01.355 mentioned that kind of emotional piece. I've always felt as well a certain 48 00:03:01.355 --> 00:03:05.115 degree of rejection for being a rebel, for being a challenger by 49 00:03:05.115 --> 00:03:08.569 nature, and always, you know, running running forward 50 00:03:08.569 --> 00:03:12.330 with with freedom above anything else really 51 00:03:12.330 --> 00:03:14.030 for myself and for other people. 52 00:03:19.645 --> 00:03:23.230 That must have been, I suppose, as a rebel, must have been tricky being a 53 00:03:23.230 --> 00:03:26.830 defense story at times because you must have seen some 54 00:03:26.830 --> 00:03:30.430 injustice, and you must be fighting for 55 00:03:30.430 --> 00:03:33.085 people that maybe were, 56 00:03:34.105 --> 00:03:37.705 in the marginalized section of society who didn't 57 00:03:37.705 --> 00:03:41.440 have, if you like, their human rights being protected and that 58 00:03:41.440 --> 00:03:44.799 must have been quite frustrating for you at times. Yeah, it 59 00:03:44.799 --> 00:03:47.975 was. Luckily kind of when I started, I was a bit, you know, green behind 60 00:03:47.975 --> 00:03:51.495 the ears or wet behind the ears or whatever they call it. So, you know, 61 00:03:51.495 --> 00:03:55.269 I was kind of still learning the ropes. But certainly, as I became more 62 00:03:55.269 --> 00:03:58.870 confident and self assured in, you know, you know, being 63 00:03:58.870 --> 00:04:02.495 vocal in court and knowing that I was right about certain 64 00:04:02.495 --> 00:04:06.015 things, I did become increasingly frustrated with what I was 65 00:04:06.015 --> 00:04:09.375 seeing and and more powerful in what I was saying and 66 00:04:09.375 --> 00:04:13.060 advocating for, but also really more frustrated in 67 00:04:13.060 --> 00:04:16.579 in seeing the kind of systems it were for for what it was, which was 68 00:04:16.579 --> 00:04:20.165 a big part of me leaving actually because I kind of felt like I have 69 00:04:20.165 --> 00:04:23.385 to become part of this system to to really flourish 70 00:04:24.245 --> 00:04:27.466 more than I had done already and I refused to do that. Jo, 71 00:04:28.320 --> 00:04:32.000 yeah, it it was it was tough tough to watch, and I learned a 72 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:34.419 lot, but was glad that I left when I did. 73 00:04:39.255 --> 00:04:42.920 I'm gonna ask you a leading question now. Why was it 74 00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:46.520 frustrating for you? Was it is it that the process itself is 75 00:04:46.520 --> 00:04:50.360 steeped in privilege and bias, or is 76 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:54.045 it just that traditional or old school nature or 77 00:04:54.045 --> 00:04:57.885 maybe the it's a man's world still in the in the legal system? Yeah. It 78 00:04:57.885 --> 00:05:01.729 was kind of all of it really thrown in, and it it took, you know, 79 00:05:01.949 --> 00:05:05.710 departing from it to really start to unpick that. I I didn't 80 00:05:05.710 --> 00:05:09.150 even notice. I was probably naive in some ways, you know, growing up in Brighton, 81 00:05:09.150 --> 00:05:12.745 which there's a lot of diversity and inclusion and, you know, my parents are very 82 00:05:12.745 --> 00:05:16.025 unconventional, and I've always kinda gravitated to, 83 00:05:16.345 --> 00:05:19.770 maybe groups that are marginalized for whatever reason. And, 84 00:05:20.169 --> 00:05:24.010 I was probably naive being a woman in that field. I 85 00:05:24.010 --> 00:05:27.050 thought, you know, growing up, you know, the world's your oyster. You can do whatever 86 00:05:27.050 --> 00:05:30.265 you want. And it was only on leaving reflection 87 00:05:30.965 --> 00:05:34.565 that I kind of recognized, oh, actually, I was told to tone it down, not 88 00:05:34.565 --> 00:05:38.220 be aggressive, not to be too assertive because it 89 00:05:38.220 --> 00:05:41.980 wasn't taken very well, that that was actually because I 90 00:05:41.980 --> 00:05:45.735 was a woman and I was female in in that role. And that didn't 91 00:05:45.735 --> 00:05:49.575 really occur to me at the time. It massively frustrated me, but I didn't 92 00:05:49.575 --> 00:05:53.389 really almost put the 2 and 2 together that that's why I was 93 00:05:53.389 --> 00:05:56.770 having that experience. And, actually, the more confident I became, 94 00:05:57.229 --> 00:06:00.830 the more I was getting that feedback that that actually wasn't 95 00:06:00.830 --> 00:06:04.455 acceptable in my role. And I was 96 00:06:04.455 --> 00:06:06.854 confused by that because I was a defense lawyer. I'm like, isn't that what I'm 97 00:06:06.854 --> 00:06:10.155 supposed to be doing, being a challenger by night shift? Yeah. 98 00:06:14.449 --> 00:06:17.590 So is that is that the the system, if you like, 99 00:06:18.290 --> 00:06:22.125 not valuing strong women. It's they want 100 00:06:22.125 --> 00:06:25.965 women to behave in a feminine way, not in a a more masculine way. Is 101 00:06:25.965 --> 00:06:29.600 that was that was that the the challenge? Yeah. Absolutely. And I would 102 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:33.040 even have, you know, men, that I that didn't 103 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:36.880 work for you know, in my firm, they were not my 104 00:06:36.880 --> 00:06:40.705 boss, etcetera, would intervene potentially or or 105 00:06:40.705 --> 00:06:43.365 feel that they had something to say about, say, 106 00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:48.160 conversation that me and a prosecutor were having in court. They would just, like, intervene 107 00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:51.759 or, you know, treat me like their employee or or you shouldn't say that. We 108 00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:55.345 know you should back off a bit, etcetera. And, you know, I would 109 00:06:55.345 --> 00:06:59.105 always, again, stand stand up for myself within that. But, you 110 00:06:59.105 --> 00:07:02.930 know, again, it became really frustrating, to do 111 00:07:02.930 --> 00:07:06.610 any, you know, have having to bring a certain energy to deal with that on 112 00:07:06.610 --> 00:07:09.830 a daily basis, was actually quite exhausting. 113 00:07:14.724 --> 00:07:18.405 A classic mansplaining. Absolutely. Absolutely. And as we 114 00:07:18.405 --> 00:07:22.040 know, women in those positions tend to leave before, you know, 115 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:25.880 those promotional I was head of department. I left before partnership, and that is the 116 00:07:25.880 --> 00:07:29.615 classic moment of when women leave. I think often it's looked at 117 00:07:29.615 --> 00:07:33.215 of women having children and things like that. There's so it's so much deeper than 118 00:07:33.215 --> 00:07:36.870 that. I don't have children. That wasn't the reason. Yet, you 119 00:07:36.870 --> 00:07:40.470 know, there's lots of women I know that that leave for all sorts of 120 00:07:40.470 --> 00:07:43.530 reasons that they can't necessarily articulate at that time. 121 00:07:50.025 --> 00:07:53.790 So you're a rebel at heart. And as you said to your 122 00:07:53.870 --> 00:07:57.550 you came from a rebel family. Your parents are kind of nonconventional. You spent a 123 00:07:57.550 --> 00:08:01.285 lot of time growing from Brighton, which I think Westfield would would describe as 124 00:08:01.285 --> 00:08:04.264 a fairly nonconventional place to live as well. 125 00:08:05.205 --> 00:08:08.905 So you you found freedom by by moving as well, didn't you? You relocated 126 00:08:09.670 --> 00:08:13.510 to the west country? Yeah. Yeah. We've always actually, as a family come on 127 00:08:13.510 --> 00:08:17.205 holiday down to the west country and St. Ives in particular, you know, 128 00:08:17.205 --> 00:08:20.565 for the artist scene. It's always quite a bohemian scene. The 129 00:08:20.565 --> 00:08:24.210 surrealist artists used to come to Cornwall as well. So, 130 00:08:24.289 --> 00:08:28.130 again, I've always felt quite an affinity with the West Country, and we do 131 00:08:28.130 --> 00:08:31.970 as a family. So, but that's quite a recent Lockwood, but I previously lived 132 00:08:31.970 --> 00:08:35.345 in Manchester, London, and and things like that. But, 133 00:08:35.905 --> 00:08:39.684 yeah, I grew up with a lot of, artistic inspirations. 134 00:08:39.905 --> 00:08:43.299 Frida Kahlo, Carlo, Lee Miller. I don't know if she's familiar to you as a 135 00:08:43.299 --> 00:08:46.980 surrealist photographer, and, a lot of 136 00:08:46.980 --> 00:08:50.355 music as well. So I'm super grateful for that. I guess my rebelling against my 137 00:08:50.355 --> 00:08:53.334 parents was to get a conventional job, which was interesting. 138 00:08:59.670 --> 00:09:03.130 So a double rebel. So you're probably against the rebels. 139 00:09:03.825 --> 00:09:07.425 Exactly. Yeah. We're well in with my father because he's a musician is 140 00:09:07.425 --> 00:09:11.265 to like rubbish music, and that would really upset him, you know, like ordering the 141 00:09:11.265 --> 00:09:15.089 Backstreet Boys because they run a music shop. So, you know, ordering something terrible. 142 00:09:15.089 --> 00:09:18.529 Again, conventional would be would be a form of rebelling. 143 00:09:18.529 --> 00:09:21.649 So, you know, it was a kind of flip on its head for rebellion in 144 00:09:21.649 --> 00:09:22.310 that sense. 145 00:09:26.975 --> 00:09:30.415 Excellent. So you you say you've, run 146 00:09:30.415 --> 00:09:34.250 retreats. Tell tell me a bit more about those retreats and and what goes 147 00:09:34.250 --> 00:09:38.089 on. What's the purpose? Yeah. I first when I started coaching, 148 00:09:38.089 --> 00:09:41.075 you know, again, it was a real heart based decision. I wanted to run a 149 00:09:41.075 --> 00:09:44.915 retreat for the women that I coach in Morocco because, again, Morocco is quite 150 00:09:44.915 --> 00:09:48.720 unconventional. I love it. And, so I hosted 151 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:52.560 my first retreat in Morocco in 2017, which was amazing. 152 00:09:52.560 --> 00:09:55.680 I didn't make it easy for myself, however, you know, because just even, you know, 153 00:09:55.680 --> 00:09:59.435 paying the re ads and, you know, it it it's not on on home turf. 154 00:09:59.435 --> 00:10:02.635 It's a very different place for for those people that have been to Morocco, although 155 00:10:02.635 --> 00:10:06.420 a beautiful place. And, yeah, I really wanted to create that 156 00:10:06.420 --> 00:10:10.260 that space for women. You know, again, it it has 157 00:10:10.339 --> 00:10:13.300 many women don't have the luxury of time. I was reading an article the other 158 00:10:13.300 --> 00:10:16.945 day and doing a lot of research about this, particularly with coronavirus and the 159 00:10:16.945 --> 00:10:20.705 pandemic. You know, again, a lot of childcare, housework, etcetera, 160 00:10:20.705 --> 00:10:23.845 has fallen on women within the home having to drop their businesses. 161 00:10:25.139 --> 00:10:28.980 And an article saying, you know, that women don't haven't previously had the luxury 162 00:10:28.980 --> 00:10:32.680 to develop their genius, as, say, you know, 163 00:10:32.955 --> 00:10:36.175 Carl Jung, Sigmund Freud, etcetera, 164 00:10:37.035 --> 00:10:40.555 you know, really, really had this gift of a luxury of time. And I've noticed 165 00:10:40.555 --> 00:10:44.190 over the past 5, 6 years working with women, they don't often 166 00:10:44.190 --> 00:10:47.709 feel that they deserve time either and 167 00:10:47.709 --> 00:10:51.505 retreats really give women that that space and time, you know, over 168 00:10:51.505 --> 00:10:54.965 72 hours, 3 days. And I I've noticed over the last 169 00:10:55.345 --> 00:10:58.860 5 years hosting retreats that the women I work with really come back to me 170 00:10:58.860 --> 00:11:02.320 and go, it was the retreat that changed absolutely everything for me. 171 00:11:02.540 --> 00:11:06.295 So this year, I may be crazy, but, you know, being a rebel at heart, 172 00:11:06.375 --> 00:11:10.214 we're doing 3 retreats in post pandemic. Fingers crossed we 173 00:11:10.214 --> 00:11:13.760 can do them, but we've had to that we've had to move previously. And, know, 174 00:11:13.760 --> 00:11:17.520 we work with such incredible women that are happy to do it whenever 175 00:11:17.520 --> 00:11:20.240 we'll do it later date. And it hasn't been you know, there's been a lot 176 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:23.775 of admin with it, but it's well worth creating that that 177 00:11:23.775 --> 00:11:26.835 space for women to work on themselves and their businesses. 178 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:33.500 It's a really interesting thought where you say 179 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:38.200 women often don't feel they have the time for themselves and 180 00:11:38.280 --> 00:11:41.915 or they don't make time because there's always this kind of self 181 00:11:41.915 --> 00:11:45.455 pressure to keep going, to find something else to do, 182 00:11:45.755 --> 00:11:49.550 and stopping almost feels like you're letting somebody else down, 183 00:11:49.550 --> 00:11:53.230 wherever that may be, your family, your work, or or 184 00:11:53.230 --> 00:11:56.755 whatever that may be, your children, and and stopping and taking time for yourself is 185 00:11:56.755 --> 00:12:00.595 really hard thing to do. And certainly women who are maybe 186 00:12:00.595 --> 00:12:04.380 entrepreneurs or in very busy lives and careers, it's really hard to 187 00:12:04.380 --> 00:12:07.980 stop, isn't it? Yeah. It is. And I think, you know, as 188 00:12:07.980 --> 00:12:11.695 women, we feel super connected, don't we? That it's that it's 189 00:12:11.695 --> 00:12:15.155 that connection to everything and everyone that 190 00:12:15.695 --> 00:12:19.250 to disconnect and focus, you know, on 191 00:12:19.250 --> 00:12:23.010 ourselves or on that one thing, whether you've got children or not, 192 00:12:23.010 --> 00:12:26.785 can can feel like a much, you know, harder thing to do. And, 193 00:12:26.985 --> 00:12:30.665 you know, as you say, it's it's giving yourself permission to actually do 194 00:12:30.665 --> 00:12:34.449 that which is really important and, educating women to 195 00:12:34.449 --> 00:12:37.970 do that because, actually, when women burn out, everyone 196 00:12:37.970 --> 00:12:41.649 else around them is affected because of that massive connection and, you 197 00:12:41.649 --> 00:12:45.055 know, nurture that we have for for 198 00:12:45.055 --> 00:12:47.795 others. Mhmm. 199 00:12:49.535 --> 00:12:53.350 Because, certainly certainly, if you like, the home admin side of it is 200 00:12:53.350 --> 00:12:57.110 everlasting, isn't it? Where it's there's always something to do, and I think 201 00:12:57.110 --> 00:13:00.915 where we're not careful, we almost feel because 202 00:13:00.915 --> 00:13:03.555 we're the buck stop for a lot of lot of lot of activities, a lot 203 00:13:03.555 --> 00:13:07.075 of tasks. And if if we don't do them, nobody's gonna do them. And if 204 00:13:07.075 --> 00:13:10.594 if we take a time out, they're still there when we get back as well. 205 00:13:10.594 --> 00:13:14.235 So we we feel this kind of must do little and often all the time, 206 00:13:14.235 --> 00:13:17.775 all the time, all the time. And even taking a break and having 207 00:13:17.775 --> 00:13:20.995 half hour in front of the telly just zoning out of reading a book, 208 00:13:21.775 --> 00:13:25.215 often you have to make that time that, because it doesn't come 209 00:13:25.215 --> 00:13:28.860 natural. I'm certainly experiencing that myself. Yeah. 210 00:13:28.860 --> 00:13:32.220 Definitely. And there's a lot of talk, you know, now, isn't there? It's quite trendy 211 00:13:32.220 --> 00:13:35.735 to talk about self care and and, you know, things like that. And it really 212 00:13:35.735 --> 00:13:39.334 is a personal journey for every everyone and every 213 00:13:39.334 --> 00:13:42.795 woman in particular because there tends to be more of a battle with that. 214 00:13:43.190 --> 00:13:46.850 And, you know, it really does self care and takes some doing. We Joanne 215 00:13:46.870 --> 00:13:50.150 really focus and think it's about the being, which it is, but it takes some 216 00:13:50.150 --> 00:13:53.464 doing. And I often say to clients, you know, if it's not in your diary, 217 00:13:53.685 --> 00:13:57.285 it's not going to happen. So for me, no one messes with my 218 00:13:57.285 --> 00:14:00.425 yoga schedule and that goes in my diary first before 219 00:14:00.644 --> 00:14:04.389 anything and anyone that goes in my diary because then I 220 00:14:04.389 --> 00:14:08.230 know I can serve everyone and, with what they need at a much 221 00:14:08.230 --> 00:14:12.075 deeper level when I have filled myself first. And I learned 222 00:14:12.075 --> 00:14:15.375 that the whole way by being a defense lawyer for 11 years. 223 00:14:15.675 --> 00:14:19.410 And, again, I wasn't just with my clients. I wasn't just their lawyer. I was 224 00:14:19.649 --> 00:14:23.410 lawyer, secretary, mother, social worker, PA, 225 00:14:23.410 --> 00:14:27.135 you know, you name it, whatever they needed, you 226 00:14:27.135 --> 00:14:30.815 know, which is why I was successful when a popular lawyer is choice 227 00:14:30.815 --> 00:14:33.955 for many of my clients who were in and out of the criminal justice system. 228 00:14:34.015 --> 00:14:37.770 But there was not a lot left for me by the end of 229 00:14:37.770 --> 00:14:41.470 that. And it took me some recovery time. 230 00:14:46.393 --> 00:14:49.685 Jo when you're working with your female solopreneurs, 231 00:14:51.425 --> 00:14:55.050 leaders, what are the biggest challenges you find that they're that 232 00:14:55.050 --> 00:14:58.570 they're trying to tackle in their life? Is it is it just imposter 233 00:14:58.570 --> 00:15:02.305 syndrome and limiting beliefs, or is there is there far more than that? Oh, far 234 00:15:02.305 --> 00:15:06.085 far more than that. But, you know, in a good way, I you know, 235 00:15:06.145 --> 00:15:09.845 some of it is really positive as well. Lack of time is massive. 236 00:15:10.220 --> 00:15:13.680 You know? I create really powerful self study courses for women that are 237 00:15:13.740 --> 00:15:17.440 really short and, you know, short and bite sized deliberately 238 00:15:17.925 --> 00:15:20.645 that you could take 5 minutes today, 10 minutes today, or just do it once 239 00:15:20.645 --> 00:15:24.404 a week and and still make progress. But, again, this lack of time thing 240 00:15:24.404 --> 00:15:28.019 is massive. Lack of confidence and lack of permission 241 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:32.000 to themselves to really actually do 242 00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:34.959 things in the way that they may want to do them and to do things 243 00:15:34.959 --> 00:15:38.785 differently. Again, women can tend to be conditioned to not 244 00:15:38.785 --> 00:15:42.464 break the rules and to, you know, follow 245 00:15:42.464 --> 00:15:46.070 things and do more of what they are 246 00:15:46.070 --> 00:15:49.270 supposed to in inverted commas. And I can't remember. My background's in, 247 00:15:49.670 --> 00:15:53.165 criminology as well. So I think it's called double deviance. So if we a 248 00:15:53.165 --> 00:15:56.925 woman breaks the rules, it's not only the rule she's broken. It's 249 00:15:56.925 --> 00:16:00.765 the it's it's the rule of being female and a woman that she's broken 250 00:16:00.765 --> 00:16:04.610 as well. So there's there's a double punishment, if you like, and that's evident in 251 00:16:04.610 --> 00:16:08.210 the criminal justice system and it's also, you know, evident in 252 00:16:08.210 --> 00:16:11.084 corporate positions, etcetera, if a woman doesn't 253 00:16:11.665 --> 00:16:15.225 follow follow the protocol and the processes. So 254 00:16:15.225 --> 00:16:18.985 women can spend a lot of time double checking themselves to make sure 255 00:16:18.985 --> 00:16:20.125 they've got things right, 256 00:16:23.610 --> 00:16:27.450 which is exhausting, ultimately. Imagine all that time and energy 257 00:16:27.450 --> 00:16:30.435 that could be spent you know, on on doing other things 258 00:16:30.814 --> 00:16:31.314 instead. 259 00:16:36.070 --> 00:16:39.829 Did you believe that's nature or nurture? Is this how women are 260 00:16:39.829 --> 00:16:43.654 socialized from a young age, to be compliant, to 261 00:16:43.654 --> 00:16:47.495 be rule protectors of rule setters? Yeah. 262 00:16:47.495 --> 00:16:51.334 That age old question. I've spent my lifetime studying that nature or nurture question, 263 00:16:51.334 --> 00:16:54.470 I think. And and I really do think, you know, I I think it's a 264 00:16:54.470 --> 00:16:58.070 mixture of both, but I definitely think nurture is 265 00:16:58.070 --> 00:17:01.335 really, really strong. And, you know, but also nature, 266 00:17:02.915 --> 00:17:06.675 it's been proven more and more that we carry ancestral trauma from 267 00:17:06.675 --> 00:17:10.150 from, you know, our ancestral line 268 00:17:10.609 --> 00:17:14.450 of, you know, previous experiences that that family members and staff have 269 00:17:14.450 --> 00:17:17.895 have had. So I find that fascinating and really, really 270 00:17:17.895 --> 00:17:21.415 interesting. And then even when I look at my own upbringing, which I said is 271 00:17:21.415 --> 00:17:24.880 very unconventional, I've got 2 sisters, you know, very, 272 00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:27.859 very female dominated family, if you like. 273 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:31.000 Me and my sister were talking about the other day the films that we used 274 00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:34.775 to watch and some of the children's books. We used to read, My Naughty Little 275 00:17:34.775 --> 00:17:38.535 Sister, and she's reading it to her daughter at the moment, who's only 5. And 276 00:17:38.535 --> 00:17:42.240 she said, I'm horrified that the the boy Harry is just 277 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:46.000 being a boy, and the girl is being very rude and very 278 00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:49.825 naughty. So she's like, Ayla's loving it, but I'm actually wanting to 279 00:17:49.825 --> 00:17:52.005 stop reading it to her. We used to love those books. 280 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:03.640 It's interesting how, generations Joanne, and we look back at 281 00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:07.005 some of the stuff that we're now feeding our children in horror 282 00:18:07.625 --> 00:18:10.765 around the stereotyping and how we 283 00:18:11.625 --> 00:18:15.340 that yesteryear almost, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It is. And I don't know. Do you 284 00:18:15.340 --> 00:18:18.080 remember Barbara the Elephant? Did you ever used to read those books? 285 00:18:20.995 --> 00:18:24.615 Yes. I remember Barbara Lisman. Yeah. Yeah. But I went to 286 00:18:25.075 --> 00:18:28.915 yeah. I went to a talk, an International Women's Day a couple of years ago 287 00:18:28.915 --> 00:18:32.100 in Brighton, and there was a chef, and I can't remember her name, but she 288 00:18:32.100 --> 00:18:35.940 opened the cannabis kitchens in Brighton and she she'd come out of banking 289 00:18:35.940 --> 00:18:39.620 and she was saying that, you know, when she entered, you know, the the 290 00:18:39.620 --> 00:18:43.245 chef industry, that women were cooks and men were chefs. And I was like, oh 291 00:18:43.245 --> 00:18:46.845 my god. I was sitting there going, I've never thought about that before, but, yeah, 292 00:18:46.845 --> 00:18:49.760 maybe that's right. And then I went to my friend's house. We were trainee lawyers 293 00:18:49.760 --> 00:18:52.960 together. She's got 2 little boys, and I was reading her older little boy who 294 00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:55.840 was 3 at the time, Barbara the elephant. He comes over to me with this 295 00:18:55.840 --> 00:18:58.740 book, and Barbara the elephant is doing, like, a cooking 296 00:18:59.535 --> 00:19:02.015 thing in this book. And at the end of the book, I get to the 297 00:19:02.015 --> 00:19:05.855 last page. I had a fit by it, but the boy elephant barber 298 00:19:05.855 --> 00:19:09.520 got a chef's hand. All the girls got pink bows. And I 299 00:19:09.520 --> 00:19:12.260 said to her, I was like, Melanie, this book, 300 00:19:13.520 --> 00:19:17.200 what on earth and what is this showing the boys? And she said, oh, god. 301 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:20.325 I've never really thought about it. And, you know, that, again, that was a book 302 00:19:20.325 --> 00:19:23.525 from our childhood. All the front cover was wrinkled. You know, it was a really 303 00:19:23.525 --> 00:19:26.985 old book. So, again, we had this kind of conversation of 304 00:19:27.550 --> 00:19:31.150 of of, you know, those subtle, subtle messages which are 305 00:19:31.150 --> 00:19:34.945 everywhere despite parenting that might 306 00:19:34.945 --> 00:19:38.725 be different. I mean, even classics. Yeah. 307 00:19:38.865 --> 00:19:42.440 Paddington Bear. All of the main characters in 308 00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:46.140 Paddington Bear are men who are going out to work, and 309 00:19:46.760 --> 00:19:50.575 the women are either activists with banners or posters or 310 00:19:50.575 --> 00:19:54.275 or at home. It's Mhmm. Those classic 311 00:19:54.335 --> 00:19:57.934 stories are bought were written and created at a 312 00:19:57.934 --> 00:20:01.480 time where that was the gender norms. And Yeah. We've been 313 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:05.240 feeding ourselves this for generations. Yeah. And I think 314 00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:08.875 it's Disney Yes. I've looked at some of the Disney cartoons. 315 00:20:08.875 --> 00:20:11.855 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's not I think Frozen was the first 316 00:20:12.875 --> 00:20:16.720 film where a girl was rescued by another girl, I e, her 317 00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:20.560 sister. And I think the now there's some there's some there's Brave and 318 00:20:20.560 --> 00:20:24.275 Moana isn't there, and there's a good few ones. And my 2, older 319 00:20:24.414 --> 00:20:28.095 nephews were saying to my niece the other day, I think it was at Christmas 320 00:20:28.095 --> 00:20:30.654 or whenever it was, of she wanted to watch Brave. And they were like, oh, 321 00:20:30.654 --> 00:20:34.429 no. It's rubbish. And I I went they always know I'm always on the rant, 322 00:20:34.809 --> 00:20:38.190 about something like that. I was like, there were not films like this for girls. 323 00:20:38.250 --> 00:20:41.895 We were young. She's watching it, You know? Blah blah 324 00:20:41.895 --> 00:20:45.735 blah. And, yeah. But, you know, it feels it feels good that they're they're 325 00:20:45.735 --> 00:20:49.540 quite naive to that. But at the same time, we do kind of educate 326 00:20:49.540 --> 00:20:53.380 them that, you know, women haven't always had this privilege 327 00:20:53.380 --> 00:20:57.220 and and these wrong role models. You know, it's so important that we have those 328 00:20:57.220 --> 00:20:58.440 role models, isn't it? 329 00:21:02.525 --> 00:21:06.125 Mhmm. Yeah. I I do get a bit frustrated sometimes with Hollywood 330 00:21:06.125 --> 00:21:09.670 that the the female led action movies are 331 00:21:09.670 --> 00:21:12.809 women just trying to be men, trying to live up to male stereotypes. 332 00:21:13.110 --> 00:21:16.905 And, this I think Charlie Sewan did a couple of 333 00:21:16.905 --> 00:21:19.865 really good ones, Atomic, I can't remember the name of the film. I was wondering, 334 00:21:19.865 --> 00:21:23.549 Atomic, wasn't it? And, Atomic Blonde. You think, wait. You're actually 335 00:21:23.549 --> 00:21:27.230 watching it. It's just Atomic Blonde. Yes. It was a feat strong 336 00:21:27.230 --> 00:21:30.985 female character lead, but she was really 337 00:21:30.985 --> 00:21:34.745 not behaving as, well, as a 338 00:21:34.745 --> 00:21:38.050 as a as a as a woman in that well, just behaving as a man. 339 00:21:38.110 --> 00:21:41.630 It was that I the it was it was an action hero as a woman 340 00:21:41.630 --> 00:21:45.125 rather than a woman being an action hero. And I think that was that's what 341 00:21:45.125 --> 00:21:48.905 the difference we gotta change is that we we create new 342 00:21:49.525 --> 00:21:53.170 genres and new new roles for 343 00:21:53.170 --> 00:21:57.010 women that are women being women, not women acting like men. That's 344 00:21:57.010 --> 00:22:00.455 that's part of the problem we're trying to fix. Yeah. I think that's that's, you 345 00:22:00.455 --> 00:22:04.215 know, the real challenge. And, again, I felt in the legal 346 00:22:04.215 --> 00:22:08.050 profession, you know, climbing the banks as it were, and it's no disrespect to 347 00:22:08.050 --> 00:22:11.730 any of the women that were kind of ahead of me, but, again, I saw 348 00:22:11.730 --> 00:22:15.485 that. I didn't feel particularly supported by by women in the field, unfortunately. 349 00:22:15.625 --> 00:22:18.765 But bar 1, who wasn't at the same firm, but, 350 00:22:19.385 --> 00:22:23.210 you know, there there weren't those role models for me. And 351 00:22:23.210 --> 00:22:26.730 I was kind of looking for women, you know, who are partners and things like 352 00:22:26.730 --> 00:22:30.424 that and thinking, oh, are you sure that's a fit for me? So I 353 00:22:30.424 --> 00:22:34.105 really felt like I didn't really have anywhere to go with it. And I I 354 00:22:34.105 --> 00:22:37.485 have a course actually. It's it's called the 24 principles to feminine success, 355 00:22:38.390 --> 00:22:41.029 and it's something that I've taught for around 5 years. And it was actually really 356 00:22:41.029 --> 00:22:44.549 hard for me to articulate at the time. I just kind of had a download 357 00:22:44.549 --> 00:22:47.425 about it. I was like, oh my god. This is really important. And I I 358 00:22:47.505 --> 00:22:51.125 still teach it now. It runs through g level radio, the podcast, and, 359 00:22:51.265 --> 00:22:55.105 you know, it it's really about how we introduce more feminine based principles 360 00:22:55.105 --> 00:22:58.900 into positions of leadership whilst honoring the masculine ones as well because we 361 00:22:58.900 --> 00:23:02.120 all have masculine and feminine energy, but we've been taught that 362 00:23:02.820 --> 00:23:06.275 more masculine based principles and 363 00:23:06.275 --> 00:23:10.115 more powerful than the than the feminine ones. And I often 364 00:23:10.115 --> 00:23:13.780 say the suppression of women also has equal to the suppression 365 00:23:13.860 --> 00:23:17.480 of the feminine and feminine based principles which we really 366 00:23:17.780 --> 00:23:21.515 need to introduce back in to bring balance and harmony in. And when I started 367 00:23:21.515 --> 00:23:25.355 looking at those principles, I was like, this is the reason the world's such a 368 00:23:25.355 --> 00:23:29.115 mess. You know? Climate change, you know, poverty, all of 369 00:23:29.115 --> 00:23:32.455 this stuff. But at the same time, 370 00:23:32.466 --> 00:23:36.034 it's very important to not, you know, 371 00:23:36.045 --> 00:23:39.865 really blame the masculine principles as well because 372 00:23:39.865 --> 00:23:42.925 then we perpetuate more of the same problem. 373 00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:52.160 I think I was watching on telly last night or the other night about 374 00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:55.885 this role of they now have a role on film sets and TV programs called 375 00:23:55.885 --> 00:23:59.645 the intimacy coach that helps define 376 00:23:59.645 --> 00:24:03.250 the boundaries and barriers between between 377 00:24:03.470 --> 00:24:07.230 actors on on set and what is they can they they 378 00:24:07.230 --> 00:24:10.905 negotiate, what is appropriate or inappropriate for their 379 00:24:10.905 --> 00:24:14.665 own personal space. And I I was 380 00:24:14.665 --> 00:24:17.565 like amazed that we're we're down to that level of now, 381 00:24:19.230 --> 00:24:22.450 having to help women create these boundaries because 382 00:24:23.150 --> 00:24:26.995 they're often put in uncomfortable situations by male 383 00:24:26.995 --> 00:24:30.615 directors or male costars or whatever it may be. And, 384 00:24:30.995 --> 00:24:34.835 it's really interesting to see that the intimacy coaches, they're an integral part 385 00:24:34.835 --> 00:24:38.279 of filmmaking. Oh, wow. That's that's that's 386 00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:42.059 incredible. But what does that yeah. That's quite horrifying 387 00:24:42.120 --> 00:24:45.785 what that shows in terms of in terms of it's funny. 388 00:24:45.785 --> 00:24:48.905 Someone put something on LinkedIn. It was a good couple of years ago now, but 389 00:24:48.905 --> 00:24:52.425 I think it might have been around the me too movement of, you 390 00:24:52.425 --> 00:24:56.170 know, business networking when we were allowed to be in the same room, 391 00:24:56.549 --> 00:25:00.390 which we haven't been for quite some time, you know, to is it 392 00:25:00.390 --> 00:25:04.115 acceptable to give someone a hug and a kiss, you know, and all of 393 00:25:04.115 --> 00:25:07.415 that. And it's such it's so important we're having those conversations, 394 00:25:08.355 --> 00:25:11.315 but then it's kind of I don't know. It's kinda sad at the same time 395 00:25:11.315 --> 00:25:14.920 because I'm I'm not if there were if there were too many rules put 396 00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:18.540 in, you know, that that's just as human beings, we're not that linear. 397 00:25:19.240 --> 00:25:22.755 It really is, you know, but but for me 398 00:25:23.075 --> 00:25:25.575 Oh. Part of that is, you know, I'm 399 00:25:26.995 --> 00:25:30.770 very empathetic Jo I can read a situation like that and and know 400 00:25:30.770 --> 00:25:34.530 what's appropriate and what isn't. And I appreciate that a lot of other people don't 401 00:25:34.530 --> 00:25:38.130