Joanne Lockwood: Hello everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I've interviewed a
Joanne Lockwood: number of amazing people who have simply had a conversation around the
Joanne Lockwood: subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world
Joanne Lockwood: a better place for everyone to thrive. If you would like to join me in
Joanne Lockwood: the future then please do drop me a line to
Joanne Lockwood: jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot
Joanne Lockwood: uk. You can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes,
Joanne Lockwood: Spotify and the usual places. So plug in
Joanne Lockwood: your headphones, grab a decaf And let's get
Joanne Lockwood: going. Today is episode 44.
Joanne Lockwood: The title. Losing the labels. And I have
Joanne Lockwood: the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Brianna Tucker.
Joanne Lockwood: Brianna helps her clients streamline their operations through educational
Joanne Lockwood: and process improvement techniques. When I asked Brianna to
Joanne Lockwood: describe her superpower, she said it is her listening skills
Joanne Lockwood: and ability to see through all of the fog. Hello,
Joanne Lockwood: Brianna. Welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne.
Brianna Tucker: Thanks for having me on the show today. I'm really excited to
Brianna Tucker: just chat with you and just have fun.
Joanne Lockwood: So where are you based? I am based in
Brianna Tucker: Jo. I am based in Wisconsin.
Brianna Tucker: Actually, I am probably 30 minutes from a major city,
Brianna Tucker: Milwaukee. And, it's absolutely beautiful
Brianna Tucker: outside, which is rare for us because it's usually cold. We don't really
Brianna Tucker: get summer. So I'm glad
Brianna Tucker: that I got to be in Milwaukee instead of where I'm actually
Brianna Tucker: living at, which is Hartford, Wisconsin. But
Joanne Lockwood: in the UK, you know, we have rain, we have sun. We don't get much
Joanne Lockwood: sun, then we get more rain and we'd be wind. Jo, weather for us
Joanne Lockwood: is is variable. And I think we've had about in the middle of our middle
Joanne Lockwood: of our summer, we've had 3 days of heat. That's our summer. So we're making
Joanne Lockwood: we're making a question. I could probably survive over there because it's about the same
Brianna Tucker: here in Wisconsin. Excellent.
Joanne Lockwood: So when we're chatting earlier, you we we settled on the title of this podcast
Joanne Lockwood: of of losing the labels. Tell me about why that's what
Joanne Lockwood: why that's passionate for you. Yeah. Jo,
Brianna Tucker: my experience as a woman of colour in
Brianna Tucker: Wisconsin, has been crazy.
Brianna Tucker: There's often times Jo much pressure on us
Brianna Tucker: to act a certain way, respond a certain way,
Brianna Tucker: look a certain way. And with that,
Brianna Tucker: there's so many labels of what's good versus bad,
Brianna Tucker: what's derogatory versus what is positive.
Brianna Tucker: Even, you know, just defining what derogatory is. It's just so
Brianna Tucker: complex that it gives you this
Brianna Tucker: uneasy feeling and this anxious feeling of what am I doing
Brianna Tucker: wrong now? Because you're so afraid of what label you're going
Brianna Tucker: to get, whether it's you're ignorant or you are too aggressive
Brianna Tucker: or you're, you know, just
Brianna Tucker: just all around a bad it's a bad feeling that people get
Brianna Tucker: when, you know, they have these labels and especially on black
Brianna Tucker: women here. It's very it's not easy
Brianna Tucker: to, avoid those
Brianna Tucker: those labels of angry black woman. And
Brianna Tucker: so you go through so many different trainings and
Brianna Tucker: courses on how to walk, talk, wear your
Brianna Tucker: hair, what makeup to wear, how to wear your makeup, what jewelry to
Brianna Tucker: wear, even how to enunciate your words, in
Brianna Tucker: a particular way. So, you know, it would be
Brianna Tucker: life changing to have that moment to not be defined
Brianna Tucker: by any one thing and just being able to be yourself
Brianna Tucker: unapologetically.
Joanne Lockwood: Wow. Do you think do you think it's you said as a
Joanne Lockwood: black woman, do you live in a mainly white
Joanne Lockwood: district or white town? Well, the town I'm in now is
Brianna Tucker: predominantly white. Believe it or not, we have a
Brianna Tucker: lot of diversity in Milwaukee and especially Madison and probably
Brianna Tucker: even the Appleton area as well. But people don't really talk
Brianna Tucker: about it because it is a predominantly white state, but
Brianna Tucker: there's so many disparities with the income that the only thing people
Brianna Tucker: hear about Wisconsin is how racist we are. But
Brianna Tucker: we do have tons of diversity here. It's just,
Brianna Tucker: unfortunately, nobody knows about it because they only hear about that bad
Brianna Tucker: label of the racist state.
Joanne Lockwood: I'd never heard that myself. No. I mean, that's a surprise.
Brianna Tucker: That's like everybody whenever you say you're from Milwaukee,
Brianna Tucker: there's 2 things you hear. There's black people there, and
Brianna Tucker: then you also hear, isn't that the most racist state
Brianna Tucker: and city in the world? And I'm like, well, I don't know if it's in
Brianna Tucker: the world, but I know that we are very segregated, but
Brianna Tucker: no different than any other state or city.
Joanne Lockwood: So you're kind of middle America that this that in that in that
Joanne Lockwood: zone. Is that right in the is that right in the red zone
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Vertically, is it? Exactly. We're usually,
Brianna Tucker: one of the states that makes that final decision, or we have a very
Brianna Tucker: high influence on how things go, especially during,
Brianna Tucker: the presidential election. Jo
Joanne Lockwood: is there is there a lot of poverty in your area, or is it a
Joanne Lockwood: is it working spouse? In the city I live in now,
Brianna Tucker: there is not a lot of impoverishment. But in the city of
Brianna Tucker: Milwaukee, yeah, definitely. But it also is
Brianna Tucker: siloed to certain zip codes in certain areas.
Brianna Tucker: Like, you can literally drive down the street and see
Brianna Tucker: the transition of impoverishment to, you know,
Brianna Tucker: an affluent area just by driving down one block, you
Brianna Tucker: know, in the same direction. And that just
Joanne Lockwood: those those those districts aren't just black districts or they're white areas of
Joanne Lockwood: impoverished as well, are there? Not as
Brianna Tucker: much, honestly. It's mainly minorities. And and that's
Brianna Tucker: just not black people. That's Hispanics. And
Brianna Tucker: the the Hmong community, it's
Brianna Tucker: minorities in general. Wow.
Joanne Lockwood: So you talk as a as a as a black woman intersectionally that,
Joanne Lockwood: yeah, a lot going on in terms of your life and your history and your
Joanne Lockwood: background. Yeah. How much do you think
Joanne Lockwood: you're influenced by being black versus being a woman, or do you think there's
Joanne Lockwood: there's equal oppression going on in both parts?
Brianna Tucker: Well, I guess for each person, it's
Brianna Tucker: different. For me, I can say that I've felt more
Brianna Tucker: oppression from my blackness than I have from being a
Brianna Tucker: woman. Being a woman
Brianna Tucker: has been actually a bonus in some situations because
Brianna Tucker: people want that, again, a label of being diverse.
Brianna Tucker: And so they love the fact that I am a woman,
Brianna Tucker: but my blackness intimidates them. And that's a word that's
Brianna Tucker: often used when referring to, especially, people of colour
Brianna Tucker: in general. Jo you think there's a lot of white
Joanne Lockwood: fragility where people are are kinda scared of of
Joanne Lockwood: of having their privilege challenged and Yeah. Threatened by the presence of black
Joanne Lockwood: people. Is that Oh, yeah. Is that the culture? Well and I I can't say
Brianna Tucker: that that's necessarily the culture, but that's definitely something that
Brianna Tucker: you feel as a person of colour here in Wisconsin.
Brianna Tucker: You, you, go through
Brianna Tucker: different experiences where people blatantly tell you and it
Brianna Tucker: and show you why they
Brianna Tucker: don't like you. And usually, it's because of the colour of your skin.
Joanne Lockwood: Jo it's not not subtle racism. It's overt and in your
Joanne Lockwood: face. Overt. Yeah. I have gone on interviews
Brianna Tucker: in which the managers have called me back
Brianna Tucker: after the interview and told me, we don't hire your kind here.
Brianna Tucker: So, yeah, it's it's blatant. It's
Brianna Tucker: not covered up in any way, shape, or form. They are
Brianna Tucker: very direct. And it depends on the company too.
Brianna Tucker: Right? Like, you know, that's not the experience with everything, but
Brianna Tucker: in most cases, for myself, I've had
Brianna Tucker: people blatantly tell me or even when I went to college, I'll never
Brianna Tucker: forget, my advisor told me
Brianna Tucker: that he was not going to waste his time on me
Brianna Tucker: because I was a black female, and the only
Brianna Tucker: thing that was gonna happen is I was gonna drop out and have a whole
Brianna Tucker: bunch of babies and lay on my back. So he was
Brianna Tucker: wasting his time by trying to encourage me to become an
Brianna Tucker: engineer. So, yeah, it's
Brianna Tucker: blatant. It's raw and direct. And so if you don't have
Brianna Tucker: tough skin, it'll kill you
Brianna Tucker: emotionally. Is this is this 2020? This is not Rosa Parks. This is
Joanne Lockwood: not 1950 show. No. Exactly. This this shit
Joanne Lockwood: still happens? Yes. Wow. Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, when we talk about racism in the UK, a lot of it is
Joanne Lockwood: more systemic and structural rather than in your face. I'm not
Joanne Lockwood: saying in your face doesn't happen. Right. But it doesn't happen to the
Joanne Lockwood: same extent. You know, I'm I'm completely blown away by the
Joanne Lockwood: over experience you've had. Oh, yeah. Or even
Brianna Tucker: another experience for me that is, like,
Brianna Tucker: I guess, ingrained and burned into my memory
Brianna Tucker: is when Barack Obama got elected the first time.
Brianna Tucker: There was a group of white supremacists driving next to me,
Brianna Tucker: as I was on my way to visit a friend to celebrate, you know, that
Brianna Tucker: Barack Obama had won the election because that was a huge deal here in
Brianna Tucker: the United States or just anywhere in general.
Brianna Tucker: And the cops helped the white supremacists try to tip
Brianna Tucker: over my car. And
Brianna Tucker: I I my car actually did tip over on 2 wheels,
Brianna Tucker: but thankfully, I don't know if it was the wind or whatever, but it
Brianna Tucker: knocked me back onto all fours and I was able to speed up
Brianna Tucker: enough that I could kinda disguise myself in traffic.
Brianna Tucker: And that's the only reason why I'm still here. But it's
Brianna Tucker: blatant. It's not it's not
Brianna Tucker: hidden at all. There's no buffer in most
Brianna Tucker: cases. I'm really struggling to
Joanne Lockwood: find words. This is this is
Joanne Lockwood: a new concept to me. I I mean, you hear about
Joanne Lockwood: it. You see the press, especially in the in the
Joanne Lockwood: wake of George Floyd's murder and some of the riots, some
Joanne Lockwood: of the was it the Tulsa? I saw some stuff in Tulsa and the massacre
Joanne Lockwood: there. And I've never heard a conversation with
Joanne Lockwood: somebody who is telling me like it is for
Joanne Lockwood: them. This is eye opening and ear
Joanne Lockwood: opening and Oh, thank you. It's it's incredible. I mean,
Joanne Lockwood: I don't mean that in a it's incredible how
Joanne Lockwood: how powerful that is. And Yeah. And
Joanne Lockwood: how I think coming from middle class
Joanne Lockwood: United Kingdom, we're so buffered from this experience that you have, and
Joanne Lockwood: it's just to us, it's kind of TV and Hollywood. Right. But
Joanne Lockwood: it's real, isn't it? Yeah. It's very real. I
Brianna Tucker: mean, like I said in the beginning,
Brianna Tucker: there is an immense amount of pressure and I
Brianna Tucker: can say that as, you know, just from my own experience,
Brianna Tucker: where you are constantly living in a state of survival
Brianna Tucker: mode, where you're trying to figure out, okay, what do I do? Where do I
Brianna Tucker: go? How do I get there? Do I travel by myself,
Brianna Tucker: or do I have to travel with other people? And what kinds of other people
Brianna Tucker: am I traveling with? Because I can't have too many white people, otherwise, they
Brianna Tucker: look suspicious. And I can't have too many black people because that looks suspicious.
Brianna Tucker: So I have to have, like, a ratio of people
Brianna Tucker: around me that looks diverse so that I'm safe. And even
Brianna Tucker: then, I'm still not safe because if I say something that
Brianna Tucker: feels or can be perceived as aggressive or
Brianna Tucker: intimidating, I still could lose my life.
Joanne Lockwood: You say, if you're with too many white people, that's also not safe?
Brianna Tucker: That's also not safe. Really?
Brianna Tucker: Because it depends on, 1, who the white people are,
Brianna Tucker: where we're going, and in some, like,
Brianna Tucker: I've had instances where, because I went to a I had
Brianna Tucker: a very unique experience growing up. My mother,
Brianna Tucker: is an amazing person and she was a teacher in the public
Brianna Tucker: school system for Milwaukee. And she placed my
Brianna Tucker: brother and I in private schools. And Jo, when I went
Brianna Tucker: to high school, it was a predominantly white,
Brianna Tucker: affluent high school. And here I am living in impoverishment.
Brianna Tucker: Jo, I got to see both worlds firsthand.
Brianna Tucker: And I will never forget the day that we, which
Brianna Tucker: was bad on my part, but I snuck out
Brianna Tucker: with my friends and we went to lunch off campus.
Brianna Tucker: And, we got stopped by the cops and the
Brianna Tucker: cops pulled me out of the car. And
Brianna Tucker: they told me that I don't belong with my
Brianna Tucker: friends. And Jo, they tried to put me in the
Brianna Tucker: police car and luckily, one of my good friends was
Brianna Tucker: like, Jo, she has to go back to school. She goes to school with us.
Brianna Tucker: And I had to show them my ID card just to show them that
Brianna Tucker: I really did go to that high school because most people know that
Brianna Tucker: that's a very affluent high school. And once I
Brianna Tucker: showed him my ID card, he was like, Yeah, just be safer
Brianna Tucker: next time. And then, I got back in the car and we went
Brianna Tucker: back to school. So, yeah, it's
Brianna Tucker: very real. It's something that you
Brianna Tucker: I don't know that a lot of people think of because as a
Brianna Tucker: woman of colour, it's something that we don't usually talk about. You just kinda
Brianna Tucker: live it and put all these rules in your head
Brianna Tucker: of what should I do, what shouldn't I do. And
Brianna Tucker: hope and pray that it that'll keep you safe to see the next day.
Brianna Tucker: But there's no there's no actual
Brianna Tucker: confirmation that that will, you know, because you do have
Brianna Tucker: situations like Breonna Taylor. And that hit me harder
Brianna Tucker: than anything because I'm like, Breonna Taylor is very close to
Brianna Tucker: the name Joanne Tucker. And how hard is
Brianna Tucker: that to know that even in my own home, I might not be safe?
Brianna Tucker: And that's the one place that I'm supposed to feel safe.
Brianna Tucker: And here I am living Joanne experience where I
Brianna Tucker: am consistently thinking, praying
Brianna Tucker: and just being
Brianna Tucker: strategic all day, every day to make sure that I
Brianna Tucker: don't do anything that may appear aggressive,
Brianna Tucker: rude, or too ethnic or urban
Brianna Tucker: is another phrase that they use here. Just so that I could make it to
Brianna Tucker: see the next day and I can see my family and my loved ones.
Brianna Tucker: So it's very real and
Brianna Tucker: powerful even today.
Joanne Lockwood: So a random knock at the door at night
Joanne Lockwood: must have Freaks me the hell out. Yeah. Freaks me out.
Brianna Tucker: So you don't feel safe in your home? You don't feel safe in your car?
Joanne Lockwood: No. You didn't feel safe on the street? You didn't feel safe in the shop?
Brianna Tucker: No. And I I can't tell you,
Brianna Tucker: how many times. And actually,
Brianna Tucker: it's so bad to the point where you don't even acknowledge
Brianna Tucker: it yourself until someone else sees it. Because
Brianna Tucker: I was actually shopping with a good friend of
Brianna Tucker: mine and she's white.
Brianna Tucker: And we were at a store,
Brianna Tucker: and the store clerks consistently
Brianna Tucker: followed me around. And I'm so used to it that it
Brianna Tucker: didn't bother me, but it bothered my friend because
Brianna Tucker: she was like, hey, what's what's going on? Why is this happening?
Brianna Tucker: And I'm like, do you not see my skin?
Brianna Tucker: Do you not see what they see? They
Brianna Tucker: think I'm gonna steal. They think I'm going to do
Brianna Tucker: something or destroy something because there's such
Brianna Tucker: negative inner or negative images of people of
Brianna Tucker: colour here that they don't trust us to
Brianna Tucker: just come into a store and shop. And that
Brianna Tucker: person consistently followed me, and then they called for
Brianna Tucker: the casual cloth
Brianna Tucker: security and police officer to follow me until we got out of the
Brianna Tucker: store. So it's all day every
Brianna Tucker: day to the point where you just do stuff
Brianna Tucker: naturally. It's not even a second thought anymore.
Joanne Lockwood: This is so ingrained in the white mentality
Joanne Lockwood: that white is good and black is bad is is ingrained at the
Joanne Lockwood: core, isn't it? Yeah. This is not a this is not like a
Joanne Lockwood: casual thing. This is like No. A real deep held belief Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: They are better. You are you are worse. Yeah. And like I said,
Brianna Tucker: I can't even say it's just black, unfortunately. It's anything
Brianna Tucker: different. Hispanic or Chinese. Anything different. Far east.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Anything different.
Joanne Lockwood: So what about other communities? The LGBT
Joanne Lockwood: community presumably is is different, is it? Yep.
Brianna Tucker: And here, that's, you know, you have certain conservative
Brianna Tucker: cities that that's not okay. You don't openly
Brianna Tucker: express your love to someone if you are within the
Brianna Tucker: LGBTQ community in certain cities because
Brianna Tucker: they will let you know that that's not
Brianna Tucker: appropriate according to them. So,
Brianna Tucker: yeah, it's anything different. Being a woman and
Joanne Lockwood: being gay or being trans is, like,
Joanne Lockwood: what that is I I I don't
Brianna Tucker: even know if I have the words of how much
Brianna Tucker: anxiety that that brings to me
Brianna Tucker: just thinking about what that person may go through.
Brianna Tucker: Because especially when it comes to being someone that might be trans
Brianna Tucker: or gay, men and women get
Brianna Tucker: that horribly. Like, they're isolated. They
Brianna Tucker: are spoken down to and just
Brianna Tucker: ridiculed and they experience so much so
Brianna Tucker: much hardship just in general because that's not something that
Brianna Tucker: you are allowed to do. It's very conservative.
Joanne Lockwood: So the people that are there that you believe to protect you, the
Joanne Lockwood: government, the state, the police,
Brianna Tucker: they're they're not they're they're they're institutionally part of the problem, aren't
Joanne Lockwood: they? They're there. Yeah. Like, Jo. I I
Brianna Tucker: rely and I'm sure I can save that for at
Brianna Tucker: least a lot of the people that I know. We rely on each other.
Brianna Tucker: I've my first mind would never be to call the cops
Brianna Tucker: if I was in a a bad situation. It would be to call certain
Brianna Tucker: relatives or, you know, my mom or certain friends
Brianna Tucker: that I have. I would never call the police first. They
Brianna Tucker: would be the probably the last people that I would call.
Brianna Tucker: And even with lawyers, you know, my brother, unfortunately, he
Brianna Tucker: had a bad experience with lawyers where the lawyer was just like, hey, you're gonna
Brianna Tucker: go to jail either way, so just take the plea. You know, that's
Brianna Tucker: a very real experience. And so,
Brianna Tucker: no, you you just don't trust any government officials
Brianna Tucker: or any people that are within government because it's
Brianna Tucker: a pattern of, hey, you're
Brianna Tucker: not actually going to help me. You're only going to help yourself.
Joanne Lockwood: That's a white judge, a white jury, white lawyers. In
Brianna Tucker: lost cases. Yeah. The white press have already found you
Joanne Lockwood: guilty? Yep. Exactly.
Joanne Lockwood: This sounds like a a story out of the 1800,
Joanne Lockwood: not a 2020 story. This this is
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, I I had a belief that at least things were better than they
Joanne Lockwood: were. This sounds like Jo progress has been made in decades. No. In
Joanne Lockwood: fact, worse. No. Yeah. It it's
Brianna Tucker: I will say, we saw a huge shift here
Brianna Tucker: in the United States, you know.
Brianna Tucker: And it doesn't mean by any means that Trump
Brianna Tucker: influenced any of those things. But during his election
Brianna Tucker: time, people became more aggressive. Whereas prior
Brianna Tucker: to that, and actually, I would say even with Barack Obama
Brianna Tucker: with how many threats he had to his life between
Brianna Tucker: those two presidents, we saw a huge influx
Brianna Tucker: of, blatant racism being increased
Brianna Tucker: opposed to suppressed. And, the way
Brianna Tucker: in the violence, the acts of violence is crazy.
Brianna Tucker: Like, it it's not necessarily that it didn't happen before those 2
Brianna Tucker: presidents, but it definitely got worse during
Brianna Tucker: those 2 those 3 terms or whatever.
Brianna Tucker: So, yeah, it just So it it
Joanne Lockwood: prodded that white fragility and and and gave them a a
Joanne Lockwood: common reason to fight back against the
Joanne Lockwood: rising of black people or something. Is that is that how it seemed? Yeah.
Brianna Tucker: I'm How dare black people have have rights? How dare black people dare to have
Joanne Lockwood: a president? Well and and again, it wasn't
Brianna Tucker: just black people. It was how dare,
Brianna Tucker: them legalize different, you know, the
Brianna Tucker: marriage of 2 same sex couples or,
Brianna Tucker: you know, how dare they allow different
Brianna Tucker: things to occur that we don't like? If it's not a conservative
Brianna Tucker: thing, how dare they? We don't like that. We want it
Brianna Tucker: to be conservative. Hence, this sort of demonization
Joanne Lockwood: of liberal, any anything that is liberal or progressive
Joanne Lockwood: seen as anti church, anti Christian,
Joanne Lockwood: anti family values. Yep. Exactly.
Brianna Tucker: Exactly. But but your community have a faith, a religion,
Joanne Lockwood: family values. Yeah. You you don't
Joanne Lockwood: ostracize people who are different from your faith, do you? You you Well,
Brianna Tucker: I will say that I was raised in a Christian house, so my
Brianna Tucker: father was actually a minister. Jo I was
Brianna Tucker: a preacher's kid, but I
Brianna Tucker: I actually ended up growing up to become spiritual.
Brianna Tucker: I don't identify within the Christian community anymore just because I
Brianna Tucker: didn't feel comfortable ostracizing people that didn't look like
Brianna Tucker: me, and especially, people that identified
Brianna Tucker: within the LGBTQ community because my experience in
Brianna Tucker: was that people that were within that community, they were some
Brianna Tucker: of the greatest people. And I couldn't imagine
Brianna Tucker: how a God that I believe in would
Brianna Tucker: ostracize them and choose me, even if I
Brianna Tucker: was, you know, the worst person in the world, but they were
Brianna Tucker: the greatest person in the world. I couldn't make that connection. I
Brianna Tucker: couldn't understand how that could happen. So
Brianna Tucker: I I still obviously, you know, know a lot about the Christian faith,
Brianna Tucker: the Catholic faith, because I grew up in Catholic schools. But
Brianna Tucker: myself, personally, I identify as spiritual just because
Brianna Tucker: I couldn't I I truly took
Brianna Tucker: love my neighbor as myself, literal. I I would
Brianna Tucker: love myself unconditionally. So I the only thing I can do is love
Brianna Tucker: everybody else that same way and show them that same respect. And
Brianna Tucker: especially with some of my experiences,
Brianna Tucker: if that's my story and every person is an
Brianna Tucker: individual book Joanne an individual story, I
Brianna Tucker: don't know what their story is. I can only see the cover.
Brianna Tucker: So I I don't wanna do
Brianna Tucker: anything that's disrespectful or hurtful or
Brianna Tucker: that ostracizes other people, especially because I don't
Brianna Tucker: know their story. I don't know what happened to them in their, you know,
Brianna Tucker: previous life or in the past. So I
Brianna Tucker: always that's just how I chose to live my life is
Brianna Tucker: just be respectful and kind and loving to everybody because
Brianna Tucker: we all deserve it. Yeah. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: I'm certainly not religious, but I do have a kind
Joanne Lockwood: of spirituality, and I I believe in that inner inner
Joanne Lockwood: voice, that inner calm, that more Buddhist, I suppose, as a sort of a
Joanne Lockwood: mantra. But you're right, that love our neighbor
Joanne Lockwood: as you'd love yourself sort of religion
Joanne Lockwood: My interpretation is that religion doesn't shouldn't teach you to hate or it
Joanne Lockwood: doesn't teach you to hate. Right. That's a human thing, isn't it? That's a human
Joanne Lockwood: thing. Yep. Judge judgment is a is a human
Joanne Lockwood: thing, not a not a a spiritual godly thing.
Brianna Tucker: Right. And for me too, it was, if we're all created
Brianna Tucker: in his image, then we're all great. We're
Brianna Tucker: all amazing in our own And none of us are mistakes. And none of
Brianna Tucker: us are mistakes. We're not we're not mistakes, are we? Right. Everything is perfect.
Joanne Lockwood: So Right. So As I say, I there's so many
Joanne Lockwood: so many challenges and and contrary messages
Joanne Lockwood: in in text. I I I I'm I'm quite comfortable being
Joanne Lockwood: spiritual, not religious. And Yeah. Likewise.
Joanne Lockwood: Jo you you your your business,
Joanne Lockwood: Browning, BC, is it? Yeah. Browning Business Consulting.
Brianna Tucker: Mhmm. Yeah. What what what is your you
Joanne Lockwood: you you've got a DNI, focus. What what is it you're
Joanne Lockwood: doing? What working with companies? Yeah. So, actually, there's
Brianna Tucker: there are 2 different companies. Browning Business Consulting,
Brianna Tucker: I focus on process improvement. And, essentially,
Brianna Tucker: what I do is I work with my clients to lay a good
Brianna Tucker: foundation so that they understand what are my operations.
Brianna Tucker: I need to be able to always answer the 5 questions, who,
Brianna Tucker: what, when, where, and why. You know, like,
Brianna Tucker: and you start with the what. What are you trying to accomplish?
Brianna Tucker: Okay? Who do you need in order to accomplish that?
Brianna Tucker: How are they going to help you? When should they
Brianna Tucker: help you? And why are they important to that
Brianna Tucker: process? So helping them critically
Brianna Tucker: think and make sure that every decision they're making operationally
Brianna Tucker: answers those 5 questions so that it is a strategic
Brianna Tucker: way of how they do their operations. And, you know, you're also
Brianna Tucker: giving that view of, is this efficient, is this
Brianna Tucker: not efficient opposed to right or wrong?
Brianna Tucker: That has been, you know, what's really catapulted
Brianna Tucker: my clients into business growth and development. And it
Brianna Tucker: makes it simple opposed to, you know, trying to speak from
Brianna Tucker: this academia level. It brings it
Brianna Tucker: personal and something easily relatable. And then, I have
Brianna Tucker: a partnership with someone that's, in HR here
Brianna Tucker: in the States. She's amazing. And it's
Brianna Tucker: called DE and I Associates. I mean, Advocates. I'm
Brianna Tucker: sorry. And there, what we're doing is
Brianna Tucker: we are utilizing the local talent that
Brianna Tucker: are already in diversity and inclusion. I know that I am
Brianna Tucker: not an expert in that realm. I know what my lived experience
Brianna Tucker: is, but I can't speak for everyone. And I know that there are people
Brianna Tucker: that have actually taken the time to educate themselves,
Brianna Tucker: to go through the different trainings, and etcetera Jo that they
Brianna Tucker: can appropriately treat, teach those subjects, help
Brianna Tucker: people understand the difference between conscious and unconscious
Brianna Tucker: biases. So we use
Brianna Tucker: those subject matter experts to kind of take people
Brianna Tucker: through diversity school. So you go through a couple
Brianna Tucker: of different workshops with different subject matter experts.
Brianna Tucker: It's not just one, you're going through multiple. And
Brianna Tucker: then my partner and I are working with you strategically to make sure,
Brianna Tucker: one, you are inclusive in your hiring process
Brianna Tucker: because she's an HR expert and real like I said,
Brianna Tucker: she's absolutely brilliant. Jo she helps them make sure
Brianna Tucker: that their job descriptions are written in a way
Brianna Tucker: that is inclusive for everyone. And then I, on the other
Brianna Tucker: side, come in and help you look at your operations and
Brianna Tucker: see, okay, are you doing things in a way
Brianna Tucker: that is accessible for other people and not
Brianna Tucker: just the typical, hey, I am,
Brianna Tucker: you know, maybe able-bodied person or I'm a
Brianna Tucker: person that's able to visually see things easily.
Brianna Tucker: So 2 different businesses, but kinda the the same thing.
Brianna Tucker: And obviously, with my own personal business, I just try
Brianna Tucker: to, do my best to incorporate the things that
Brianna Tucker: I'm doing for the DE and I business within my Browning Business
Brianna Tucker: Consulting Business. And making sure that people understand
Brianna Tucker: that for me and Browning Business Consulting
Brianna Tucker: Business Consulting, diversity is more than just
Brianna Tucker: a word. It's it's an ex it's
Brianna Tucker: my lived experience. And so, as a
Brianna Tucker: person, you are going to be treated only as a person. I am
Brianna Tucker: not going to do anything to you
Brianna Tucker: or disrespect you or talk down to you
Brianna Tucker: or demean you or try to make it
Brianna Tucker: seem as if I'm so educated and you're not. I'm
Brianna Tucker: going to make sure that your experience is the
Brianna Tucker: opposite of what I experienced.
Joanne Lockwood: I love that you start with the the what. Because when
Joanne Lockwood: I consult with clients around DEI,
Joanne Lockwood: I always start with what are you trying to achieve? Yeah. And then
Joanne Lockwood: next question I ask is why does it matter to you? Right. Because if you
Joanne Lockwood: don't know what you're trying to achieve and why it matters, there's no point in
Joanne Lockwood: embarking on the journey. You know, you talk about the where. I talk
Joanne Lockwood: about the direction of travel, the speed of travel. But unless you know what
Joanne Lockwood: you're trying to achieve, you never know if you've got there. Right. Jo and you
Joanne Lockwood: have to get you have to understand why it matters to you as well as
Joanne Lockwood: a business and as a person. So I think that's a great starting point,
Joanne Lockwood: and I use that without putting in the words you did.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's it's it's very powerful to to really
Joanne Lockwood: root it in that what. What are you trying to achieve? Yeah. And
Joanne Lockwood: then everything should fit into place. As you say, if you answer those questions
Joanne Lockwood: into my order, it starts fitting into place. Yeah. Right.
Brianna Tucker: Well, because I noticed, with my work as
Brianna Tucker: a employee,
Brianna Tucker: that in most cases, we we
Brianna Tucker: have a list of tasks. Right? But we never really understand the
Brianna Tucker: whole story behind those tasks. We're just doing
Brianna Tucker: them. And so, things aren't done efficiently because it's just
Brianna Tucker: like we're checking off a checklist and making sure things are getting done.
Brianna Tucker: Whereas, if you're critically answering those questions, then
Brianna Tucker: you're starting to think, okay, how do these tasks relate to one
Brianna Tucker: another? And are these tasks even necessary in order to
Brianna Tucker: accomplish what we're trying to accomplish? Because
Brianna Tucker: usually, in business, there's multilevels. Right? You have
Brianna Tucker: your, you have your business goals,
Brianna Tucker: and then you have your operational goals. And then
Brianna Tucker: within those operational goals, you'll probably have even more goals
Brianna Tucker: as far as like how you accomplish those different tabs. And so,
Brianna Tucker: when you break it down and you just start from the bottom up
Brianna Tucker: because in most cases, that's what people do.
Brianna Tucker: And you look at how everything relates to one another, you
Brianna Tucker: can see that domino effect of how this one task
Brianna Tucker: leads to everything else being accomplished.
Brianna Tucker: So I found that starting with, you know,
Brianna Tucker: letting them look at their operations and
Brianna Tucker: analyzing how are how's everything getting done? Who's
Brianna Tucker: helping you to get these things done? Then that starts them on a
Brianna Tucker: path of starting to look at everything that they're doing
Brianna Tucker: because they're putting it into practice and then they're also able to see the benefits
Brianna Tucker: of, okay, I answered these 5 questions
Brianna Tucker: and now, I'm realizing that there's some things that I could
Brianna Tucker: probably clean up to make it more efficient And it
Brianna Tucker: just, you know, kind of naturally promotes
Brianna Tucker: that continuous improvement type environment.
Joanne Lockwood: Do you ever get frustrated that you find yourself
Joanne Lockwood: talking to the converted, the echo chamber, because the
Joanne Lockwood: people you work with are already woke. They're already thinking in
Joanne Lockwood: this way. Sometimes, it's it we we actually
Joanne Lockwood: wanna bang the heads together with the people who aren't in the room, the people
Joanne Lockwood: who aren't engaging, people who aren't listening. Because, generally, I'm sure the many of
Joanne Lockwood: the companies you work with are already on the right path anyway. They're already thinking
Joanne Lockwood: in that more diverse, more inclusive way.
Brianna Tucker: Yes. As far as diversity, yes, they
Brianna Tucker: are. As far as their operations on the other hand, it's,
Joanne Lockwood: you know Okay. It's still a little bit different
Brianna Tucker: because they're not answering those critical questions.
Brianna Tucker: They are kinda just taking it day by day and
Brianna Tucker: surviving. So, you know, similar to me, they're just working each and
Brianna Tucker: every day. And most of my clients have been smaller businesses, so
Brianna Tucker: it's easier to control, you know, how diverse your
Brianna Tucker: company is. And to your point, yes. In In
Brianna Tucker: most of the cases, my clients have been people
Brianna Tucker: that even if they don't
Brianna Tucker: want to have this super diverse
Brianna Tucker: culture, they are at least able to know that
Brianna Tucker: respecting that is important and you have to do that in order to be
Brianna Tucker: my client because I won't tolerate anything outside of that.
Brianna Tucker: So, yeah. Like I said, to to that point,
Brianna Tucker: I'm talking to people that already feel and
Brianna Tucker: acknowledge the same thing that I do as far as diversity, but we still gotta
Brianna Tucker: clean up their operations. For sure.
Joanne Lockwood: People often ask me, do I experience a lot of bias
Joanne Lockwood: about my own identity in business and the world the
Joanne Lockwood: world I work in? Right. And generally, I don't. The
Joanne Lockwood: reason is Interesting. People people know who I am.
Joanne Lockwood: I don't hide who I am. Okay. It's kind of right in my identity
Joanne Lockwood: right out there in the middle. So people who come to me come to me
Joanne Lockwood: because of who I am. So people who don't come to me,
Joanne Lockwood: maybe don't come to me because of who I am, but then I don't hear
Joanne Lockwood: them. All I hear is the people who do wanna work with me. So I
Joanne Lockwood: I I have a very positive experience in life because
Joanne Lockwood: I only ever work with people who wanna work with me. And then they come
Joanne Lockwood: to me. So Right. I I suppose I that's a privilege I have
Joanne Lockwood: is that by being professionally trans, I
Joanne Lockwood: avoid I avoid that that that stigma of of trying
Joanne Lockwood: to hide it or cover it or Right. Or
Joanne Lockwood: mask it. I just I'm out there front and center, then that creates its own
Joanne Lockwood: market. So I I realized a while ago that I I am privileged.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not I'm not a, I don't have another
Joanne Lockwood: role, if you like. I'm not an account and I'm not a
Joanne Lockwood: codeveloper. So trying to get over that job whilst
Joanne Lockwood: being trans. I have the privilege of being professionally trans, which
Joanne Lockwood: means that's what you get. Yep. That's what you're getting. I don't I
Joanne Lockwood: don't that's what you're gonna get. So in a way, it's a
Joanne Lockwood: superpower or at least it's Yeah. It is.
Brianna Tucker: It definitely is. And
Joanne Lockwood: I I guess you're working with mainly black owned
Joanne Lockwood: businesses. So being black helps you with those businesses, is
Joanne Lockwood: it? Well, actually, I my most of
Brianna Tucker: my clients are white. So Wow. Okay.
Brianna Tucker: You know? Does that go against the, the grain in terms
Joanne Lockwood: of the societal expectations? I mean, it it's,
Joanne Lockwood: you know, from when you were talking earlier, it sounded like you are more likely
Joanne Lockwood: to be rejected, but there's obviously a community or a
Joanne Lockwood: side side of your society that is open is is inclusive.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Ironically, none of my clients live in
Brianna Tucker: Wisconsin. But Okay.
Joanne Lockwood: Okay. So outside of the borders. That's pretty much Yeah. They're outside of the
Brianna Tucker: borders. They're, you know, East Coast, Southwest,
Brianna Tucker: part of the United States. Jo, I think
Brianna Tucker: obviously, and that's another thing that's kind of interesting,
Brianna Tucker: I guess, about the United States is the way people
Brianna Tucker: embrace cultures and diversity in different areas
Brianna Tucker: is crazy. You can literally actually see
Brianna Tucker: and feel how even city by city
Brianna Tucker: within some of the states that, you know, diversity is
Brianna Tucker: accepted or not. Jo, yeah,
Brianna Tucker: ironically, most of my clients have been white, white
Brianna Tucker: women, ironically. Well,
Joanne Lockwood: that's fantastic, isn't it? That's Yeah. It means you yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: So has has the world changed where you are
Joanne Lockwood: locally in the last 18 months since George Floyd or
Joanne Lockwood: has it got, you know, heightened awareness? I think it's
Brianna Tucker: more heightened awareness. I believe that,
Brianna Tucker: more people are starting to acknowledge those experiences
Brianna Tucker: where prior to George Floyd and more
Brianna Tucker: so Breonna Taylor as well, that
Brianna Tucker: it was kind of like like you were saying earlier, where it's things that you
Brianna Tucker: feel like it just happens on TV. It's not something that actually happens
Brianna Tucker: to you. And I know that in Wisconsin, we've had,
Brianna Tucker: other victims similar to, Breonna Taylor
Brianna Tucker: and George Floyd that have experienced that and
Brianna Tucker: they, you know, sued the city and etcetera. So I think it's
Brianna Tucker: the awareness has become stronger.
Brianna Tucker: Mhmm. And there's obviously some people that
Brianna Tucker: still say, hey, you guys are making this up. But there's a
Brianna Tucker: lot more people saying, I don't even think I
Brianna Tucker: realized what was going on because I felt like
Brianna Tucker: this was just something in the history books.
Brianna Tucker: And they're taking those actionable steps to try
Brianna Tucker: to unlearn some of those unconscious biases that they
Brianna Tucker: didn't even realize they had. So it's it's been
Brianna Tucker: both negative and positive, I guess.
Joanne Lockwood: Are they conscious or unconscious? Oh, yeah. A lot of these
Joanne Lockwood: sound like a brain has a brain. Hate, isn't it? Yeah? It's Cultural
Joanne Lockwood: hate. It's both.
Brianna Tucker: And that the biggest difference is the acknowledgement of it.
Brianna Tucker: Right? Because in some cases, yes,
Brianna Tucker: you are raised a certain way. You might be raised to think
Brianna Tucker: like, I remember one person told
Brianna Tucker: me that, she was raised to think that black people were
Brianna Tucker: inherently ignorant and that, you know,
Brianna Tucker: Hispanic people were inherently hard
Brianna Tucker: workers and that they were only good for labor work.
Brianna Tucker: And she didn't realize that that was something
Brianna Tucker: wrong, that that that's not something you should think about
Brianna Tucker: those people. You should just get to know them as individuals.
Brianna Tucker: So it's she she knew that that was there, but
Brianna Tucker: she also didn't understand how that
Brianna Tucker: thought or that bias affected the rest of her life and
Brianna Tucker: how she treated people. So it's a combination.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm still struggling to find some words after listening to you speak
Joanne Lockwood: all the time. It's such a different world
Joanne Lockwood: that you're telling me about that I had no appreciation existed.
Joanne Lockwood: As I all I've seen is the Hollywood representation, the CNN
Joanne Lockwood: representation. Well and now you know a real person that
Brianna Tucker: has experienced that consistently throughout her entire
Brianna Tucker: life. I mean, the stories
Brianna Tucker: are endless even from I remember
Brianna Tucker: or another example, I should say, of how things
Brianna Tucker: happen here is I typically wear protective styling for
Brianna Tucker: my hair. I absolutely love my hair. It's
Brianna Tucker: naturally curly, coily, brown hair, and
Brianna Tucker: it actually turns red too, believe it or
Brianna Tucker: not. And I had an experience where I
Brianna Tucker: wore my hair in its natural state. And a white
Brianna Tucker: woman thought that it was beautiful and tried to touch my hair, and I
Brianna Tucker: told her no. And basically,
Brianna Tucker: to make a long story short, I almost lost my
Brianna Tucker: job because I told her no. She reported me and
Brianna Tucker: said that I was, again, aggressive, rude,
Brianna Tucker: disrespectful, all because I wouldn't allow her to touch my natural
Brianna Tucker: hair because I knew, hey, you know, black hair
Brianna Tucker: is beautiful, but it takes a lot of work for us to maintain it
Brianna Tucker: and protect it and, you know, make sure that it's healthy. And I'm like,
Brianna Tucker: literally, this is a 2 to 3 day process to get my
Brianna Tucker: hair the the way that it needs to be. So I don't want you
Brianna Tucker: touching my hair because that means I have to start this process over, and I
Brianna Tucker: usually only do that on weekends. And how about just respect the fact
Brianna Tucker: that I need personal space and respect that
Brianna Tucker: that I want my personal space. But yeah,
Brianna Tucker: she reported me and said that I was being rude and aggressive
Brianna Tucker: and mean. And thankfully, again, other people
Brianna Tucker: came and said, hey, that wasn't the situation.
Brianna Tucker: Like, Brianna just said Jo. And the
Brianna Tucker: lady continued to try to touch her hair and she said no again. And then
Brianna Tucker: eventually, Brianna walked away. But that's
Brianna Tucker: kind of the story here, or at least for me is,
Brianna Tucker: I have so many experiences where if it wasn't for
Brianna Tucker: other people validating the experience that I was living,
Brianna Tucker: no one would believe me.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, I've got black friends in the UK, and they tell
Joanne Lockwood: me they're often getting people touched in their hair or asking
Joanne Lockwood: about the hair. The hair is always a big deal. Yeah. And it's it's
Joanne Lockwood: another micro question. It just becomes a kind of, oh, here we go again, doesn't
Joanne Lockwood: it? Yep. Exactly. Exactly.
Brianna Tucker: And and like I said, the the irony is even when you say
Brianna Tucker: no, it's like, I don't care that you said
Brianna Tucker: no. I'm gonna do it anyway because that's what I wanna do.
Joanne Lockwood: Jo you feel that you're having to comply
Joanne Lockwood: and allowing white people effectively take
Joanne Lockwood: over your take over and tell you what you can and can't do, and they
Joanne Lockwood: feel they got rights to it? Exactly. That's exactly how it is. I
Brianna Tucker: mean, even like you said earlier with, you know,
Brianna Tucker: even within the health care system or whatever, it's more of,
Brianna Tucker: hey, I'm the white person. You're gonna tell I'm gonna tell you what you
Brianna Tucker: should do and you're just gonna do it. And if you don't do it and
Brianna Tucker: you don't comply, then this is what's gonna happen to you. Even down
Brianna Tucker: to healthcare, I mean, there's been instances where I've had to
Brianna Tucker: advocate for myself by hopping from doctor to doctor to doctor
Brianna Tucker: to doctor because, hey, this doctor over
Brianna Tucker: here said, Jo, that's not what it is. You're
Brianna Tucker: fine. You're allowed to tolerate that. Or
Brianna Tucker: Jo, you shouldn't get this because you're just trying
Brianna Tucker: to get more drugs, so you can sell the drugs or
Brianna Tucker: so you can take the drugs. So it's
Brianna Tucker: that constant, I'm going to tell you what you need, opposed
Brianna Tucker: to listening to what I'm saying and
Brianna Tucker: acknowledging that my experience or whatever I'm telling you
Brianna Tucker: is what it is for me.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, again, listen to the incredible stories around
Joanne Lockwood: this white or privileged entitlement that occurs,
Joanne Lockwood: and it it occurs in the UK, but never to the extent you describe
Joanne Lockwood: it. Is there optimism for the future? I mean, can you see
Joanne Lockwood: things changing? Oh, definitely. I would
Brianna Tucker: say, especially here in Wisconsin, I have seen
Brianna Tucker: quite a bit, like I was talking about earlier where, you know, that
Brianna Tucker: conscious, unconscious bias combination is being
Brianna Tucker: acknowledged now. And so a lot of people are
Brianna Tucker: wanting to have those conversations to see, okay,
Brianna Tucker: what have we been doing? Because similar to you, it's like, I'm
Brianna Tucker: so disconnected from this and there's things that I'm doing that I don't even
Brianna Tucker: realize I'm doing. I wanna learn. Jo I feel
Brianna Tucker: like between, you know, us all
Brianna Tucker: growing together and seeing
Brianna Tucker: different experiences and being open to have those conversations.
Brianna Tucker: And, you know, just people willing to educate themselves
Brianna Tucker: as well. Right? Like, not relying on those minority,
Brianna Tucker: communities even within LGBTQ. Like,
Brianna Tucker: we're not gonna rely on that community to educate us on how
Brianna Tucker: they should be respected. We're also going to do the research for
Brianna Tucker: ourselves and make sure that we're asking
Brianna Tucker: questions and not being afraid to ask ask those questions and
Brianna Tucker: have those tough conversations. But it's definitely starting to
Brianna Tucker: happen. And so I feel like, you know, I may not
Brianna Tucker: see it in my lifetime, but I know that
Brianna Tucker: it's going to happen sooner than later because people are
Brianna Tucker: actively doing things now to try to make things
Brianna Tucker: better later. Even in Milwaukee?
Brianna Tucker: Even in Milwaukee. We're actively doing things
Brianna Tucker: now to try to make things better.
Brianna Tucker: A lot more different initiatives, a lot
Brianna Tucker: more auditing as far as, like, HR is concerned
Brianna Tucker: to see are we truly diverse? Are we truly inclusive?
Brianna Tucker: Have we ever had any experiences where people
Brianna Tucker: felt isolated? There's more companies
Brianna Tucker: trying to incorporate holistic,
Brianna Tucker: approaches to healthcare. So including things
Brianna Tucker: like therapy sessions or support groups and,
Brianna Tucker: you know, different groups to advocate for the rights
Brianna Tucker: of all humans. Jo, yeah. Even here,
Brianna Tucker: I mean, it's they're baby steps,
Brianna Tucker: but even baby steps are good steps. They're all steps. They all
Brianna Tucker: count. Yeah. I I
Joanne Lockwood: agree that we can all walk away from the problem,
Joanne Lockwood: but we may not be able to change the world on our own, but we
Joanne Lockwood: can change the world around us. So if we choose
Joanne Lockwood: not to make a difference, then we're letting it we're letting it pass for
Joanne Lockwood: somebody else to take over. So I think we all gotta be the 1. And
Joanne Lockwood: if we're all the one, that makes a difference. Yeah. And that difference adds becomes
Joanne Lockwood: cumulative, doesn't it? Exactly. That's what we can all do. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: When people say, what can I do? We you can change yourself. That sort of
Joanne Lockwood: thing. Exactly. Yep. And we infect other people with this
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion virus. Right.
Brianna Tucker: Exactly. You know? Spread it everywhere. Yeah. And
Brianna Tucker: and the thing that I've learned to embrace too, even for
Brianna Tucker: myself is being okay with
Brianna Tucker: knowing that you're not going to understand everything. I'm
Brianna Tucker: never going to understand what your life is like as a trans woman
Brianna Tucker: because that's not my lived experience. And even
Brianna Tucker: my experience to another black woman's experience, I'm not going to
Brianna Tucker: understand that because that wasn't my experience. But I am open
Brianna Tucker: to, you know, just hearing your story if you're willing
Brianna Tucker: to share, respecting your space, and respecting
Brianna Tucker: your voice. And as long as we all just start
Brianna Tucker: there with, like I said, asking those
Brianna Tucker: questions, even if they're hard or even if they may not
Brianna Tucker: come out the right way, you know, because that's the other big fear is
Brianna Tucker: that, hey, I might ask you a question that technically is inappropriate and I
Brianna Tucker: don't want it to be inappropriate, but I I'm I'm
Brianna Tucker: curious. I wanna know. So kind of a a two way
Brianna Tucker: street, right, where I'm willing to be
Brianna Tucker: open to have those questions and comments and
Brianna Tucker: conversations, but I'm also expecting you to do the
Brianna Tucker: same thing. And if we all kinda commit to just
Brianna Tucker: that basic thing, yeah, it can change
Brianna Tucker: tremendously. Yep. Do the work.
Brianna Tucker: Do the work. Do the work. You can do the work yourself.
Brianna Tucker: Yep. I agree. I think too often people
Joanne Lockwood: put too much reliance on other
Joanne Lockwood: people Oh, yes. To do the education, to tell me how
Joanne Lockwood: tell me where I'm going wrong. Right. I mean, YouTube, that
Joanne Lockwood: you can watch tens and thousands of hours of YouTube if you want lived
Joanne Lockwood: experience and wanna hear, if you wanna ask a question. Yeah. I mean,
Brianna Tucker: there's and believe it or not, there's so many
Brianna Tucker: shared stories similar to mine from all different
Brianna Tucker: communities on even something as simple as TikTok, which is
Brianna Tucker: one minute, you know, in most cases. Or if you are a
Brianna Tucker: person that you love to read books, there are tons of
Brianna Tucker: educational books on, you know, being supportive
Brianna Tucker: and and breaking down those conscious and unconscious biases.
Brianna Tucker: So, yeah, there's too many resources now for us
Brianna Tucker: not to take some onus on ourselves and do the work.
Joanne Lockwood: Well, I can't believe we've been talking for almost an hour. That's incredible.
Brianna Tucker: Thank you so much. You made it so easy. I
Brianna Tucker: appreciate that. I know you were a bit worried at the beginning whether we
Joanne Lockwood: could talk for an hour, but I I knew we'd find some words and Yeah.
Brianna Tucker: I definitely was. I was completely freaking out because
Brianna Tucker: I thought, what the heck am I gonna say? And to such
Brianna Tucker: a a audience that has heard so many great speakers prior to
Brianna Tucker: me, it was like, man, this is pressure.
Brianna Tucker: They're exciting. But it was amazing.
Joanne Lockwood: You're right out there on the the people I've interviewed,
Joanne Lockwood: and this is right up there in terms of personal impact. This is right up
Joanne Lockwood: there in in yeah. I've I feel moved. You've almost reduced
Joanne Lockwood: me to tears on a couple of occasions. So, yeah, you you have you
Joanne Lockwood: have made me the one who who has learned from
Joanne Lockwood: this and I I really I've been this so much. I've
Joanne Lockwood: valued what you said so much and, You are way too kind.
Brianna Tucker: I'm just No. Sharing my story so that other people
Brianna Tucker: know that they're not by themselves because Yeah. We don't talk about
Brianna Tucker: it and that's part of the problem. So, even
Brianna Tucker: if I don't have someone. Someone listening to my story, that opens up because
Brianna Tucker: I'm sure even in the UK, people just probably haven't shared
Brianna Tucker: their story because it's so taboo to do. So, even
Brianna Tucker: if maybe they listen to it and they become more brave
Brianna Tucker: to let their voice shine, that's that in and of
Brianna Tucker: itself is huge to me and I appreciate you just
Brianna Tucker: saying that and acknowledging my experience. So thank you.
Joanne Lockwood: Okay. Thank you. How could people get a hold of you if they
Joanne Lockwood: wanna find out more? Sure. They can reach me. I am on
Brianna Tucker: Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn. My username
Brianna Tucker: on all three platforms is bbiz,
Brianna Tucker: B-B-I-Z, Consulting. And my website is
Brianna Tucker: actually the same. It's bbizconsulting.com.
Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. I'll put those in the show notes that there there as well.
Joanne Lockwood: Thank you so much. So a huge thank you for the listeners for
Joanne Lockwood: tuning in, for listening, for making it to the end. And I'm
Joanne Lockwood: sure, like me, you could have listened for another hour or so.
Joanne Lockwood: This has been amazing. So do keep do subscribe,
Joanne Lockwood: because you'll hear future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's
Joanne Lockwood: B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends. Tell your colleagues so they can share
Joanne Lockwood: in these stories as well. I've got a number of other exciting guests lined
Joanne Lockwood: up that I'm sure you'll be equally inspired by over the next few weeks
Joanne Lockwood: months. Of course, if you'd like to be a guest, please let me know.
Joanne Lockwood: And I'd always welcome feedback, suggestions on future shows, and how we can
Joanne Lockwood: improve this to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: And finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been an absolute pleasure to
Joanne Lockwood: host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.