Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host for the
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a
Joanne Lockwood: number of amazing people and simply had a conversation around the subject of
Joanne Lockwood: inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better
Joanne Lockwood: place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then
Joanne Lockwood: please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: that's, S-E-E
Joanne Lockwood: Change Happen dot co dot uk. You can catch up with all of
Joanne Lockwood: the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify, and the usual places.
Joanne Lockwood: So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf, and let's get
Joanne Lockwood: going. Today is episode 45
Joanne Lockwood: with the title Living on the Edge. And I have the absolute
Joanne Lockwood: honor and privilege to be joined by Andi Maratos.
Joanne Lockwood: Andi is the CEO of Chrysalis, a charity supporting trans,
Joanne Lockwood: non binary and questioning people together with their family and friends.
Joanne Lockwood: When I asked Andi to describe their superpower, they said
Joanne Lockwood: that they genuinely believe in people. Hello, Andi.
Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to the show. Hi, Jo. Thank you so much for
Andi Maratos: inviting me. It's great to be here. Yes. And
Joanne Lockwood: we're this is the day after with the latest announcement that,
Joanne Lockwood: lockdown has been extended for yet another 4 weeks
Joanne Lockwood: to the end of July now. Another another 4 weeks of talking to people on
Andi Maratos: Zoom, but I know. It's what it is. I
Joanne Lockwood: know. I did my first in person training gig yesterday, and
Joanne Lockwood: it was really strange presenting to a a ring full of
Joanne Lockwood: people socially distanced. Actual humans. Really, really hard.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Say again. Sorry? Actual humans in an actual
Andi Maratos: space. Actual humans, actual space. Yeah. The challenge was
Joanne Lockwood: there was too much space, and it was very difficult to have
Joanne Lockwood: conversations and talk to each other, but there we are. But yeah. Jo,
Joanne Lockwood: hopefully, 1 more month, and we'll be back to
Joanne Lockwood: to normal. And we can talk about what we mean by normal in a minute,
Joanne Lockwood: Shelley.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes. So, Joanne, living on the edge.
Joanne Lockwood: We talked about this just now. So what's living on the edge mean to you?
Andi Maratos: So I think
Andi Maratos: I've never quite
Andi Maratos: known the language, fitted in, whatever, see myself in the
Andi Maratos: space of all of those people over there.
Andi Maratos: And that flows through everything inside
Andi Maratos: me. So that's the music. That's my growing up.
Andi Maratos: Does it enable me to define my gender identity and my
Andi Maratos: sexuality? Probably all of those things are
Andi Maratos: are just edges, not quite in there.
Andi Maratos: But for me, that's, it's a great space
Andi Maratos: because on the edge,
Andi Maratos: and I'm sure there's a Pratchett quote in here somewhere, but you can
Andi Maratos: see things more clearly.
Andi Maratos: Anybody who knows me knows that I love Pratchett. And
Andi Maratos: inevitably, there's going to be some quotes that slip in here from,
Andi Maratos: some of his stories. I think he's, although he's an author, I think he's a
Andi Maratos: great philosopher.
Andi Maratos: And
Andi Maratos: being on the edge. So it makes me see things differently
Andi Maratos: but it makes me that much more able and
Andi Maratos: willing to reach out and,
Andi Maratos: draw others closer to to make the
Andi Maratos: edge a safe space in and of itself. That it's
Andi Maratos: okay to be different. That
Andi Maratos: being different is just as awesome as everything else.
Andi Maratos: And maybe the the more you look at it, the more you explore
Andi Maratos: the, the concept, the more you see that
Andi Maratos: everybody's got a bit of edge inside them.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Interesting. I I mean, I I probably spent
Joanne Lockwood: the majority of my life tucked in the middle
Joanne Lockwood: in typically middle class, typically white, typically
Joanne Lockwood: in a family unit, you know, the 2.4 nuclear
Joanne Lockwood: family, typically on that wrap run of
Joanne Lockwood: acquiring assets, being a good employee, doing as you're
Joanne Lockwood: told, growing in the company. I spent a lot of my life in that
Joanne Lockwood: in that center middle ground. And since
Joanne Lockwood: you're what you say, I would say in the last 4 or 5, maybe 6
Joanne Lockwood: years, I've been edging closer to the outside
Joanne Lockwood: of that. And when you say you can see things more clearly,
Joanne Lockwood: I think you're so right. But then when you're in the middle of everything, there's
Joanne Lockwood: so much going on, so much conformity. You don't have the chance
Joanne Lockwood: to rethink about who you are, what you believe
Joanne Lockwood: in. You you just get caught up in that group think and that way you
Joanne Lockwood: do stuff. Jo, yeah, I can see that. So what have you learned
Joanne Lockwood: from from your edge if you like?
Andi Maratos: I think, yeah, absolutely. Like you say that there is there's more space.
Andi Maratos: You can see more, you can be yourself. So,
Andi Maratos: I like you, I I started off trying
Andi Maratos: to play the game, trying to fit in, did
Andi Maratos: all the things that were expected of me like, you know,
Andi Maratos: going to university, get into that career, get on the ladder.
Andi Maratos: And then and and in that
Andi Maratos: time and that space, I was hiding very much I was hiding who I was.
Andi Maratos: And that's not I say, not necessarily my sexuality or
Andi Maratos: my gender identity, that's my real intrinsic
Andi Maratos: me. That's the me that makes me who I am, which is much more than
Andi Maratos: that. That's the alternative me, the me that thinks differently, that
Andi Maratos: sees things differently, that literally does
Andi Maratos: not have anything else in the wardrobe that's not black.
Andi Maratos: And I tried to conceal that. I tried to conform.
Andi Maratos: I tried to pretend, and I tried to listen to the language and be like
Andi Maratos: everyone else. And it just doesn't work.
Andi Maratos: And eventually,
Andi Maratos: I got made redundant kind of thing happens to everybody. Well, not everybody,
Andi Maratos: but a lot of people go through that. It's a life changing moment. It's a
Andi Maratos: time to reevaluate. And I found
Andi Maratos: myself out of the corporate world and into
Andi Maratos: the education world. And in there, I
Andi Maratos: started to find a place of much more
Andi Maratos: collaboration. Business manufacturing, it's all
Andi Maratos: about competition. It's all about guarding your secrets.
Andi Maratos: But in education, we were there to try and help each other grow
Andi Maratos: and develop and nurture. And even though that's
Andi Maratos: the job of the institution to do for the students, it
Andi Maratos: also does for the staff and everyone connected.
Andi Maratos: And so I started
Andi Maratos: to grow and develop and to to reach out and start to feel
Andi Maratos: who my real me was.
Andi Maratos: And I went I said
Andi Maratos: to my boss, would it be okay if I
Andi Maratos: got stuff put in my hair? Because I'm going
Andi Maratos: to an event, and it takes quite a while to get this
Andi Maratos: stuff installed.
Andi Maratos: And, it's I'm gonna have to be coming into work and sitting at my desk
Andi Maratos: in front of you looking a bit weird for a while. For me to
Andi Maratos: have that conversation with my boss, who's a former army
Andi Maratos: officer, quite proper, was a massive thing. And
Andi Maratos: he said, as long as it's not pink, I don't mind. And
Andi Maratos: I thought, how little you know me? It would
Andi Maratos: literally it it might be any other color, but it's never gonna be pink. But
Andi Maratos: I think that it's just that absolute
Andi Maratos: yeah absolutely you are welcome here as
Andi Maratos: you. Was like oh,
Andi Maratos: wow. I've kind of kind of found my space.
Andi Maratos: And I haven't told this story
Andi Maratos: for ages now, actually, but it still gets
Andi Maratos: me because, yeah, he
Andi Maratos: was a ex army, but
Andi Maratos: he would we were in student accommodation and you needed
Andi Maratos: someone who just totally got the people or individuals first
Andi Maratos: and that you come to university to develop yourself and that he really
Andi Maratos: valued that in his staff and his team as well.
Andi Maratos: And I think that was the switch that flicked. That said
Andi Maratos: you don't have to keep pretending. You don't have
Andi Maratos: to understand that way of
Andi Maratos: being Because actually what you've got
Andi Maratos: is more than that. What you've got is different. What you've got
Andi Maratos: is valuable. What you've got in yourself
Andi Maratos: can create a world where it's okay to be
Andi Maratos: you.
Andi Maratos: The yeah. The being on the edge, living on the edge is valuable
Andi Maratos: and creates change. And, yeah, from
Andi Maratos: from there, maybe I stuck around in that job a little bit long. I
Andi Maratos: was within the education sector for
Andi Maratos: 15 years. I I came out there.
Andi Maratos: But I think yeah. I came out as alternative. I started
Andi Maratos: being visible as my whole authentic self.
Andi Maratos: And from that, I gained confidence
Andi Maratos: in in my authentic me, in
Andi Maratos: my knowledge, in my brain, in my abilities to go
Andi Maratos: forward, to go back into education, to learn more, and
Andi Maratos: eventually to, take the risk, take the leap to
Andi Maratos: take on chrysalis. That,
Andi Maratos: yes, I really could do it. So
Andi Maratos: yeah that was 2017, I took a
Andi Maratos: risk, I believed in me and
Andi Maratos: I believed in my individuality.
Andi Maratos: And I believed it was strong enough that that belief
Andi Maratos: could carry through and believe in all the other people involved.
Andi Maratos: And with that belief, we
Andi Maratos: could all become our authentic selves.
Joanne Lockwood: It's interesting what you said about coming out as alternative.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, III think back to so I'm I was born in the
Joanne Lockwood: mid sixties. I So my kinda growing up formative kinda year
Joanne Lockwood: with seventies, in
Joanne Lockwood: those days, people used to align themselves
Joanne Lockwood: more with music. So punk, you had
Joanne Lockwood: rockers, you had, goths,
Joanne Lockwood: you had Joanne of The Smiths.
Joanne Lockwood: Jo people used to align themselves with with their identities around that. And, of course,
Joanne Lockwood: we had the new romantics of the early early eighties, the Duran Duran, the
Joanne Lockwood: Simon of Bonsolin. So people didn't really
Joanne Lockwood: come out as alternative. They were part of a music
Joanne Lockwood: crowd sort of thing. People were punk, people were
Joanne Lockwood: rockers. Not in not in the corporate world.
Andi Maratos: Absolutely. No. Not in the corporate world. No. But but you can decide
Joanne Lockwood: to weekend. Precisely. Yeah.
Andi Maratos: But you I I've
Andi Maratos: I've spoken with colleagues who, you know, they take all their piercings
Andi Maratos: out for an interview. Guys who wouldn't even have
Andi Maratos: like 1 piercing.
Andi Maratos: Yeah. Certainly in the nineties, you you just wouldn't
Andi Maratos: be seen as you. I think hair color,
Andi Maratos: visible tattoos,
Andi Maratos: and I think those changes that have been
Andi Maratos: driven by those of us who for whom that is an intrinsic part of who
Andi Maratos: we are, but we've gradually moved up in whatever fields. We've
Andi Maratos: seen that, oh my goodness, a tattoo is not going to destroy
Andi Maratos: somebody's ability to perform a function or to to do a job. So
Andi Maratos: things have shifted, I
Andi Maratos: guess I'm kinda kinda
Andi Maratos: going sideways, but this is me.
Andi Maratos: I think that the change that started with all
Andi Maratos: those subcultures are certainly in in the UK with the musical
Andi Maratos: subcultures. I do think that that has been
Andi Maratos: part of what's progressed the wider,
Andi Maratos: inclusion.
Andi Maratos: I don't wanna use the word agenda.
Andi Maratos: Change. You know, just that that greater acceptance, greater
Andi Maratos: understanding of all kinds of diversity and
Andi Maratos: that and I suppose because music is something that you
Andi Maratos: control, that level of self agency
Andi Maratos: that is just an aspect of who you are. And
Andi Maratos: if you wanna grow your hair or if you want to have a tattoo,
Andi Maratos: then it doesn't change who you are. But I still think
Andi Maratos: we're a very long way from that being acceptable
Andi Maratos: at senior level. I think there
Andi Maratos: are small pockets. I think it is coming up.
Andi Maratos: But I was on a call earlier watching lots of,
Andi Maratos: executives talk about how, they're fantastic
Andi Maratos: allies, to the LGBT community from
Andi Maratos: their, you know, senior positions.
Andi Maratos: And they all
Andi Maratos: looked incredibly conformist. In
Andi Maratos: that every single person using he, him pronouns
Andi Maratos: was wearing a shirt, and so on and and
Andi Maratos: so forth. And so I think we're still a long way away
Andi Maratos: from
Andi Maratos: relaxing completely and meeting people on
Andi Maratos: that actual genuine level Jo that
Andi Maratos: then they can become that best person.
Andi Maratos: We still got all the assumptions and the
Andi Maratos: the covering, the need to perform in a particular way.
Joanne Lockwood: We've come out of the weekend shadows into the mainstream over the
Joanne Lockwood: last 10 or so years. As you say, we
Joanne Lockwood: were in the seventies and eighties, we were kind of
Joanne Lockwood: weekend punks. We were And it's huge culture as well
Andi Maratos: Yeah. I think. And that certainly,
Andi Maratos: you know, shifted. You know, we've we've grown up. That doesn't mean that there's not
Andi Maratos: young people in all of the scenes, but, yes, it has
Andi Maratos: certainly become much more. But it it took the rock and
Joanne Lockwood: roll era and the sixties era to start
Joanne Lockwood: establishing youth culture to none. I guess in the seventies, there weren't enough
Joanne Lockwood: people old enough to be not youth culture. People were still in
Joanne Lockwood: their mid thirties, late thirties. Jo now that we've
Joanne Lockwood: got people who have come through that era Mhmm. Of that
Joanne Lockwood: freedom, that youth culture to understand that we're taking that I'm taking
Joanne Lockwood: that into my fifties and sixties now. Yeah. Whereas my my
Joanne Lockwood: parents, they were brought up in an era that that forgotten
Joanne Lockwood: generation, that wartime
Joanne Lockwood: yeah. They were born on the cusp of of the outbreak of war. So they
Joanne Lockwood: didn't already have that freedom in their teenage years to
Joanne Lockwood: express. And maybe, as I say, maybe the the
Joanne Lockwood: rock and roll is where the first teenage culture came from, isn't it?
Andi Maratos: But yeah. I agree. But I think that there's
Andi Maratos: maybe, an over,
Andi Maratos: focus on very small groups.
Andi Maratos: So people talk about the hippies. There were not that many hippies.
Andi Maratos: If there were, we'd be living in a very different world right now than the
Andi Maratos: 1 we're in. And and the same with
Andi Maratos: with the, the subcultures, the the culture
Andi Maratos: of normality, the culture of, as you said, that,
Andi Maratos: go on down the 2.4a half a dog path,
Andi Maratos: do not question, do not assume. Oh my goodness. There's definitely no
Andi Maratos: way that we're ever gonna tell anybody that we're gay.
Andi Maratos: Space that was was prevalent all the certainly all the way through the
Andi Maratos: eighties. Oh, HIV. Yeah. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: The the original partial partial to criminalization of homosexuality in 1967.
Joanne Lockwood: And as soon as that that freedom was it was allowed, then the
Joanne Lockwood: HIV AIDS epidemic took over,
Joanne Lockwood: which kind of put a kibosh on that
Joanne Lockwood: freedom of expression that people then had. And section 28, I mean,
Joanne Lockwood: all those other things going on, you know, promoting promotion
Joanne Lockwood: of gay education in schools.
Joanne Lockwood: So that all that kind of restifled that and it's now only that
Joanne Lockwood: we've got past over that that constraint, if you
Joanne Lockwood: like, we're now able to start restart expressing ourselves. You
Andi Maratos: say we've got past it? Well, it
Joanne Lockwood: from a sexuality, maybe, potentially, point of view, but we still see it in
Joanne Lockwood: Hungary. We see it in Poland at the moment. We see it in many territories
Joanne Lockwood: in the world. But and even in much of
Joanne Lockwood: America, even though the UK is not perfect, it's it's a lot
Joanne Lockwood: more liberal, a lot more tolerant and accepting of of varying
Joanne Lockwood: identities than many places in the world. You know, I'm not saying we should be
Joanne Lockwood: count as lucky or anything because there are still areas where there's a lot to
Joanne Lockwood: work to do, but we do have it relatively
Joanne Lockwood: easier in terms of identity and expression than many other
Joanne Lockwood: countries in the world at the moment.
Andi Maratos: But I do wonder whether we talk ourselves interfering that it's not
Andi Maratos: so so great. Yeah. I
Joanne Lockwood: mean, Twitter, some of the Sunday
Joanne Lockwood: royalties and tabloids, the constant barrage of of hate
Joanne Lockwood: that goes on around certain communities, the the polarization of the
Joanne Lockwood: media, stirring up discord where it doesn't need to
Joanne Lockwood: doesn't need to be there, creating this big debate around taking the
Joanne Lockwood: knee black lives matter, put this hope but pitching
Joanne Lockwood: pitching people against each other all the time, trying to create this this debate in
Joanne Lockwood: the media. Yeah. Debate. Yeah. Telling people
Joanne Lockwood: they have to have a side, whereas before people could form their own
Joanne Lockwood: minds, but now they've been given a side because their their culture, their background, their
Joanne Lockwood: tribe, whatever it may be. And and that that's you have to have a
Andi Maratos: side. You can't have an opinion or a thought or a feeling or
Andi Maratos: an experience. That is not nuanced. It has to be a side. And if you
Andi Maratos: have to have a side, then we have to define it. And, actually,
Andi Maratos: we're talking about edges. There there there
Andi Maratos: is no no other side, is there? You know?
Joanne Lockwood: I mean, without I'm not gonna express my view on taking the knee,
Joanne Lockwood: but what what 1 view I do have, which is a core belief
Joanne Lockwood: of mine, it matters to some people, therefore it matters to me, it
Joanne Lockwood: matters to them. So whatever I my feelings on it are, and
Joanne Lockwood: they're not negative, the overriding thing for me is it's not
Joanne Lockwood: my it's not my cause. It's not my thing I wanna do, but if
Joanne Lockwood: it matters to you, I support you in what you do. And a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: people don't see that as a conclusion of their
Joanne Lockwood: thought process. They wanna debate whether it's right or wrong. I don't care if it's
Joanne Lockwood: right or wrong. I care that you care. Yeah. And that's that,
Andi Maratos: when coming back to talking about the superpower of belief in
Andi Maratos: people that believing
Andi Maratos: that you, you
Andi Maratos: Jo, are important.
Andi Maratos: Your belief structure is important. The actions you take, the
Andi Maratos: reality that you described to me is absolutely true and
Andi Maratos: valid and important. Listening
Andi Maratos: is is where it comes down to, isn't it? But that's the that's
Andi Maratos: the power that that really delivers positive
Andi Maratos: change.
Andi Maratos: If I ignore all of those things and you tell me what's important to to
Andi Maratos: you and I still ignore you, then
Andi Maratos: we're not gonna get anywhere. Yeah. And
Joanne Lockwood: whenever I talk to people, whenever I train, whenever I consult with people,
Joanne Lockwood: I always come from the view that as human beings, we don't get up
Joanne Lockwood: and set off the day to be nasty or have bad
Joanne Lockwood: intent. And all I say is to people is this is what
Joanne Lockwood: makes me happy and this is what makes me sad. And I know generally,
Joanne Lockwood: you just wanna make people happy. So these are the things that make me happy.
Joanne Lockwood: And if we can stick to those, I'm fine. We're fine. And
Joanne Lockwood: maybe it's because I've got a clear understanding of what does make me sad and
Joanne Lockwood: what makes me unhappy because of my identity,
Joanne Lockwood: because of some of the, the struggles I've had in the last few years. Maybe
Joanne Lockwood: other people don't realize through their privilege or their lens
Andi Maratos: that they actually got privileged. In the middle. Yeah. Again, thinking about taking it
Andi Maratos: taking yourself out and having a look at yourself. And and
Andi Maratos: what does that mean? That that being being an alternative for me, that
Andi Maratos: that's, a subcultural thing, but it's being alternative to the
Andi Maratos: mainstream in in whatever way, isn't it? And doing that work.
Andi Maratos: Whereas if you're comfortable in the middle, if
Andi Maratos: you've never felt that tension, if you've never,
Andi Maratos: if everything you've tried has worked okay, then that's
Andi Maratos: alright. And you don't you haven't done that work. You haven't thought about who you
Andi Maratos: are. So you don't really know what makes you
Andi Maratos: happy because you've never really bumped up against the things
Andi Maratos: that don't make you happy. And
Andi Maratos: in counseling, so I'm a person centered therapist.
Andi Maratos: And our second principle for
Andi Maratos: for therapy is that the client needs to be in
Andi Maratos: a state of incongruence. You need to have realized that something's not
Andi Maratos: right. You need to have experienced something out of alignment
Andi Maratos: in order to go and want to actively change it.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I think when you know, going back to what you're saying about this
Joanne Lockwood: space on the edge, in the center, it's very densely
Joanne Lockwood: packed, isn't it? It's suffocating. There's no room to stretch. There's no
Joanne Lockwood: room to sort of enhance and develop. I think you're so right. On the on
Joanne Lockwood: the edge, there is more grass. There is more free space. We're living
Joanne Lockwood: instead of living in the center of the city, we're living in the country, we're
Joanne Lockwood: living on the beach, and I've got my own space.
Joanne Lockwood: And I I love the way that we we have an identity now of
Joanne Lockwood: questioning. I think questioning is brilliant. That's me
Joanne Lockwood: cross legged in a grassy field somewhere just trying to figure
Joanne Lockwood: out who I am, what life's about, what my direction is without
Joanne Lockwood: having noise in my head all the time. So you must do this,
Joanne Lockwood: get on the conveyor belt, get off at the next exit, drive and
Joanne Lockwood: drive. And I think questioning was a was a fantastic place for me to
Joanne Lockwood: be where I just figured stuff out without that
Joanne Lockwood: pressure, but you need to go out of the center. And it's safe in the
Andi Maratos: middle. It's Jo safe in the middle. You
Andi Maratos: if you don't challenge things, then
Andi Maratos: you're not risking much.
Andi Maratos: And I guess
Andi Maratos: we're all capable of achieving intellectually whatever we
Andi Maratos: achieve. And with people take risks in business
Andi Maratos: or whatever. But if you're in the middle, you
Andi Maratos: can do all of those things and look like you're progressing, but you're not taking
Andi Maratos: risks with your core being. You're not
Andi Maratos: going, what if?
Andi Maratos: Yeah. You're not taking that walk down the street when
Andi Maratos: you absolutely know that
Andi Maratos: you're gonna get something shouted at you. Because you don't need
Andi Maratos: to.
Andi Maratos: I had a thought. Where did my thought go, Jo?
Joanne Lockwood: Well, people shouting at you. People shouting at
Joanne Lockwood: you. And that's that's just 1
Andi Maratos: 1 example. But it is about
Andi Maratos: stepping outside your comfort zone. And they're they're cliches that turn to people
Andi Maratos: like, oh, god. I don't wanna do that.
Andi Maratos: But actually, it's amazing.
Andi Maratos: It's amazing being different because
Andi Maratos: you can do so much more. You can you can
Andi Maratos: take a charity and go, no, it's gonna be like
Andi Maratos: this. And and it is.
Andi Maratos: And we've gone
Andi Maratos: stratospheric, really, with the the support that we're offering.
Andi Maratos: If you're if you're different, you can go,
Andi Maratos: oh, heck. Lockdown.
Andi Maratos: Better do something. Turn on a 6 months
Andi Maratos: because you're used to not
Andi Maratos: following those those
Andi Maratos: worn parts of thought because you know, I know that
Andi Maratos: they don't work for me. If if everybody else
Andi Maratos: is doing it, I am not the person to try to persuade
Andi Maratos: to do it because I'll be looking for
Andi Maratos: why. What can we improve?
Andi Maratos: Always. Always. Well, if that's what everybody's doing, surely there's something
Andi Maratos: better. You think when
Joanne Lockwood: you're in the middle sometimes that you you're seeking validation
Joanne Lockwood: from your peers, checking that it's the right thing to do all the
Joanne Lockwood: time. Oh, maybe maybe you're nearer the edge or
Joanne Lockwood: nearer that questioning place. You You're
Joanne Lockwood: so used to making decisions
Joanne Lockwood: that are life changing affecting and realizing those decisions
Joanne Lockwood: whilst they have consequences, they're not the enormous fear that you
Joanne Lockwood: thought they would be.
Andi Maratos: I'd hate to generalize, actually, because I can think of a lot of
Andi Maratos: people for whom living on the edge is constantly
Andi Maratos: anxiety inducing. Mhmm.
Andi Maratos: I think about
Andi Maratos: all the the brackets of diversity
Andi Maratos: and, all the covering that people have to do,
Andi Maratos: all of the extra lifting that you have to do,
Andi Maratos: you know, whether it's visible, whether it's not, whether you come out,
Andi Maratos: etcetera, etcetera. Again, go back to the, being
Andi Maratos: shouted out on the street.
Andi Maratos: But from a personal perspective,
Andi Maratos: I don't know what the middle ever felt like because it was never I was
Andi Maratos: never in it. Jo, yes,
Andi Maratos: I'm used to not getting that affirmation
Andi Maratos: and making risks and just kind of relying on
Andi Maratos: myself. If it feels right, do it. Because nobody's
Andi Maratos: going to properly get what you're doing anyway
Andi Maratos: until they do, until you prove so for me, it's proving myself by my
Andi Maratos: actions. I said I could do it. I did it.
Joanne Lockwood: Mhmm. I've certainly I think I've probably just proven it to
Andi Maratos: myself, but don't think anybody else cares. I I certainly
Joanne Lockwood: Joanne I I've stopped asking permission.
Joanne Lockwood: And I remember distinctly feeling I needed
Joanne Lockwood: to ask permission for things around by
Joanne Lockwood: identity reevaluation, my
Joanne Lockwood: career. I have business partners. I had bosses.
Joanne Lockwood: So I was always feeling that I I couldn't be empowered, but I suppose
Joanne Lockwood: I suppose it's pretty hard for me to to be specific
Joanne Lockwood: about where this change occurred. 1 is, yeah, I I obviously
Joanne Lockwood: reengineered my entire being in terms of career
Joanne Lockwood: and gender identity at the same time. So it's difficult to work out
Joanne Lockwood: whether I found empowerment through change of career and
Joanne Lockwood: and passion and purpose or whether that there was an alignment
Joanne Lockwood: of self. How which 1 was the most crucial
Joanne Lockwood: into finding myself, whether it was my gender identity or was it the alignment of
Joanne Lockwood: passion and purpose. And I still look back on that and think, could I have
Joanne Lockwood: done 1 without the other? I'll never know. There's no control
Joanne Lockwood: group. I can't ever check that. But I do wonder
Joanne Lockwood: sometimes was were they both necessary to find myself
Joanne Lockwood: here? I think authenticity
Andi Maratos: frees up who you are. So if you're looking at
Andi Maratos: 1 aspect of yourself, it's really, really hard to only
Andi Maratos: develop your left arm when you're doing weight training.
Andi Maratos: You kind of have to do the whole thing.
Andi Maratos: And somebody else said to, you know, it's self
Andi Maratos: development is it's never ending.
Andi Maratos: You there's always more you can do. Again, to go back to
Andi Maratos: Rogers, you know, we'll never reach the 7th stage, we'll never reach
Andi Maratos: Nirvana and pure enlightenment because there's always
Andi Maratos: something new to discover.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. You're so right. So my fear sometimes is I'm actually getting
Joanne Lockwood: sucked back in the middle. I'm I'm kinda comfortable in who
Joanne Lockwood: I am, comfortable in what I do. I have a brand. I have
Joanne Lockwood: a what I I have a stuff that I get on with. So I'm actually
Joanne Lockwood: drifting back into into the middle again, not feeling so
Joanne Lockwood: edgy. Maybe maybe my identity isn't edgy. Your
Andi Maratos: knowledge of both what it feels like to be on
Andi Maratos: the edge and your greater understanding of edge
Andi Maratos: people. Mhmm. So in your place in the
Andi Maratos: middle, you are then an ally
Andi Maratos: to everyone who needs you and your power, your knowledge, your
Andi Maratos: experience to make a better space.
Joanne Lockwood: Well, don't get me wrong. Speak the language that we don't. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Don't get me wrong. I'm not looking to go right back into the
Joanne Lockwood: hustle and bustle of the middle. I wanna find a
Joanne Lockwood: little oasis with a nice bit of grass, a palm tree, a
Joanne Lockwood: little bit of water there where I'm close enough to the middle, but I still
Joanne Lockwood: have that that edge space, if you like.
Joanne Lockwood: So I never wanna lose that feeling of freedom. I don't wanna feel like I
Joanne Lockwood: have to comply to other people's expectations.
Joanne Lockwood: And when you talk about being shouted at walking down the street, I wanna get
Joanne Lockwood: to a point where I just go, yep. Okay. Fine.
Joanne Lockwood: Whatever. Yeah. You see, that's not good enough. I want a place where there is
Andi Maratos: no churching at in the street. But being comfortable in my
Joanne Lockwood: own skin Yes. Enough that I don't have to I don't have any
Joanne Lockwood: internalized anger or fear or at
Joanne Lockwood: that person. I can just go I can just see them as
Joanne Lockwood: misguided. I can just see them as that's that's your opinion. It's it's not
Joanne Lockwood: fact. Then it doesn't hurt? Doesn't hurt. It's it it's
Joanne Lockwood: just as I describe it, it's graffiti on the wall. It's just something I drive
Joanne Lockwood: by and read. It's not me. It's just them. And that's not about
Andi Maratos: putting armor on to, defend
Andi Maratos: yourself against the strikes. It is about just,
Andi Maratos: yeah, them just glancing off. They're not
Andi Maratos: they just don't hurt, they don't enter
Andi Maratos: into your world. I guess what you were just saying about
Andi Maratos: how when you're in the middle, you don't think about
Andi Maratos: the outside. And it's the same thing.
Andi Maratos: You know? They're so irrelevant to your experiencing
Andi Maratos: that you can just put them away as, oh, well, that's that that individual.
Andi Maratos: Okay. That's it. I don't need to think about it. Is
Joanne Lockwood: that Yeah. Completely.
Joanne Lockwood: I Joanne back 4 or 5 years, I was I had learned to
Joanne Lockwood: love myself. I think it was probably the key thing. I hadn't learned to believe
Joanne Lockwood: in myself. I hadn't learned to value myself.
Joanne Lockwood: And I think that was part of what gave me
Joanne Lockwood: inspirations to find that who I was, that 1 that 1
Joanne Lockwood: self. And it became Asking
Andi Maratos: permission from the world to be you? Yeah. That kind of
Joanne Lockwood: stuff. Yeah. Feeling like I had to apologize. You internalize
Joanne Lockwood: so much of it because you see it in the media, you see it in
Joanne Lockwood: the press, you see it all over the place saying being you is wrong.
Joanne Lockwood: And therefore, you internalize that I'm wrong. And when you when
Joanne Lockwood: you let go of that and say, well, actually, I I'm okay. I'm cool. I'm
Joanne Lockwood: right. I'm happy with being me. Actually, what you think is not relevant in
Joanne Lockwood: terms of how it makes me feel. And that's quite
Joanne Lockwood: quite a wake up call 1 day. And it's I can't remember
Joanne Lockwood: exactly when it happened, but I remember thinking, wow, it feels so
Joanne Lockwood: quiet now. I haven't I don't have that thought. And
Joanne Lockwood: the other thing I found was having not having
Joanne Lockwood: a lie. You know, I'd lived my life with so many secrets
Joanne Lockwood: inside my head, so many things I couldn't talk about. I think once you shared
Joanne Lockwood: the biggest secret in your head, everything else is just a walk in the park
Joanne Lockwood: and I don't feel that I have to cover, hide, mask. If
Joanne Lockwood: I've made a mistake, if I've don't say I'm not proud of or whatever it
Joanne Lockwood: may be or I'm scared of something, I I feel empowered to say
Joanne Lockwood: it and let it out because I know that holding it in doesn't
Joanne Lockwood: serve any purpose. So it's, yeah, having no sequence is a is
Joanne Lockwood: a really powerful place to be where I'm not saying I'm an open book by
Joanne Lockwood: any means, but I don't have anything inside me that is I I I'd be
Joanne Lockwood: fearful of telling anybody. Yeah. There's a difference between
Andi Maratos: exposing yourself and everything about you to the world
Andi Maratos: and not lying to yourself. So
Andi Maratos: yeah. But you say, you make a mistake. Okay. People do.
Andi Maratos: But, actually, also, I'm really proud of what I did and
Andi Maratos: celebrating that. Yeah. I I remember telling my
Joanne Lockwood: mom about me, whenever it was, 4 or 5 years ago.
Joanne Lockwood: And I always said to myself, unless I could tell my mom I wasn't
Joanne Lockwood: honest with the world, it was part of me saying,
Joanne Lockwood: I've told my mom, therefore I'm not lying to anybody.
Joanne Lockwood: But as I was keeping a secret from someone who I care deeply about, whose
Joanne Lockwood: whose views and thoughts mattered to me,
Joanne Lockwood: Knowing I was keeping something from her meant I was I wasn't honest with everybody
Joanne Lockwood: else. So, yeah, it was extremely powerful for me to to make sure I
Joanne Lockwood: I shared all that information.
Joanne Lockwood: Maybe selfishly at the time, maybe I didn't think enough about how my mom
Joanne Lockwood: would feel about it, but I was more worried
Joanne Lockwood: about my feelings. But, no, with hindsight, it was
Joanne Lockwood: necessary for both of us to move on. Yeah. And and
Andi Maratos: as children, we don't have control over what our
Andi Maratos: parents think. No. We don't.
Andi Maratos: But we will never ever stop wanting their love
Andi Maratos: and approval. And
Andi Maratos: I guess thinking about what you've
Andi Maratos: just said then,
Andi Maratos: You're not always going to get it,
Andi Maratos: But I think it's worth
Andi Maratos: the risk of trying.
Joanne Lockwood: I I think I I this is 1 of these quotes. It's
Joanne Lockwood: everything whoever wanted is on the other side of fear. I can't remember who
Joanne Lockwood: said it now, but that's really powerful. And how often does that fear of
Joanne Lockwood: judgment, fear of rejection, fear, whatever it may
Joanne Lockwood: be, stop you achieving what you want to achieve?
Joanne Lockwood: And it's overcoming that fear that's in your head
Joanne Lockwood: often, isn't it? Yeah. And when you're so scared, of course, things
Andi Maratos: go blaa out rather
Andi Maratos: Joanne, in that that
Andi Maratos: measured space that you can then
Andi Maratos: allow some of their responses in and
Andi Maratos: maybe move forward because it you just threw
Andi Maratos: it and ran away.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Definite no. Definitely. It it yeah. I I
Joanne Lockwood: guess I suppose I'm
Joanne Lockwood: lucky that I've been through that process
Joanne Lockwood: personally, found myself the other side. So it was very
Joanne Lockwood: tormenturous. I was often describe it as the Bermuda Triangle,
Joanne Lockwood: that vortex where there was you had
Joanne Lockwood: to find an exit either the way you came in, the way you wanna
Joanne Lockwood: get out, or just another path. But you you can't hang
Joanne Lockwood: around in that confusion zone. For too long. Otherwise
Andi Maratos: It'll rip your path. You'll get sucked into which your part yeah. Get sucked into
Joanne Lockwood: it. Yeah. But I think that
Andi Maratos: you don't very rarely does
Andi Maratos: anyone come out on the path that they thought they
Andi Maratos: were going to be on when they went in.
Andi Maratos: The the there will be some that it it change the it
Andi Maratos: changes you come out somewhere slightly different.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. But that that's exactly what I said earlier about the questioning area, isn't it?
Joanne Lockwood: Hopefully, you Joanne find a calmness in that vortex to actually have that
Joanne Lockwood: time to think, what? Now I'm here. What I've got all the options open to
Joanne Lockwood: me. Now where do I wanna be? And not feel you've got
Joanne Lockwood: this predetermined exit Joanne. The exit of other
Joanne Lockwood: people's expectations are often are often your own desires.
Joanne Lockwood: We feel that we've got to do something for somebody else. And that's
Joanne Lockwood: that's a struggle as well. I mean, I'm not saying we shouldn't consider other
Joanne Lockwood: people's feelings completely. We must must factor them in.
Joanne Lockwood: But but when they have agency over you, it can become,
Joanne Lockwood: again, you're living someone else's life, not your own again.
Andi Maratos: Yeah. Checking and consulting, but being your
Andi Maratos: own agent. Mhmm. Yeah. I think
Joanne Lockwood: also I recognize that other people had their own
Joanne Lockwood: freedom of expression, their own freedom of choice, their own needs. So
Joanne Lockwood: just because I was shifting myself to the edge,
Joanne Lockwood: the other people around me had their right to not come with me, to
Joanne Lockwood: stay in their comfort zone, to be who they wanted to be. And I
Joanne Lockwood: very quickly realized that was part of the journey that we had I had to
Joanne Lockwood: allow everybody around around me to pick their own path
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And not say, I'm over here. You have to come with me.
Joanne Lockwood: Because, no, people would push back and go, I don't wanna come with you. And
Joanne Lockwood: I go, oh, okay. That's fine. Yeah. And
Andi Maratos: that's that journey of self enlightenment,
Andi Maratos: whatever it looks like, whatever path you take
Andi Maratos: it is and it's always going to be your people
Andi Maratos: will join you, People will share it.
Andi Maratos: But they will always relate
Andi Maratos: to the user they relate to.
Andi Maratos: Jo if they like that you, then they're gonna carry on
Andi Maratos: relating to you. But if they don't,
Andi Maratos: they might drift off, on their own path.
Andi Maratos: So when I was doing my counseling
Andi Maratos: training, you know, they said, oh, this will change. It's like, no. Of course it
Andi Maratos: works. What what? Never going to change any of us. We're all
Andi Maratos: perfectly formed individuals, you know, we're well developed.
Andi Maratos: But actually, no, it does. And you see more
Andi Maratos: clearly, you see what is real love, real affection, real
Andi Maratos: respect. And you've come to value those
Andi Maratos: feelings from people much more clearly, but
Andi Maratos: you value it on their terms. I think
Andi Maratos: that's rather
Andi Maratos: than trying to butt 2 realities
Andi Maratos: together. Is that making sense? I
Joanne Lockwood: get that. Yeah. Because I think when
Joanne Lockwood: as you say, when you try and butt 2 realities together, you're not solving
Joanne Lockwood: any problem. You're not talking. You're not opening up the dialogue. You're
Joanne Lockwood: butting. You're you're you're clashing. You're trying to force
Joanne Lockwood: 2 cultures together rather than unpick the best
Joanne Lockwood: bits from both. And I guess following that
Andi Maratos: through, if you develop yourself,
Andi Maratos: you never lose because
Andi Maratos: you've you don't
Andi Maratos: fall apart horrifically. You can rebuild
Andi Maratos: relationships. You can take aspects that
Andi Maratos: that are the right and healthy parts of those relationships
Andi Maratos: rather than just throwing it all away and
Andi Maratos: and it all breaking
Andi Maratos: down. And I mean, I guess
Andi Maratos: that's specifically talking about,
Andi Maratos: LGBT plus coming out experience, but I think
Andi Maratos: it's it's a truism for for much more about mental
Andi Maratos: well-being and about authenticity.
Andi Maratos: Yeah. That just if you
Andi Maratos: believe that people are amazing, if you believe
Andi Maratos: that they are in if you believe in people,
Andi Maratos: you can believe everyone is acting
Andi Maratos: on their best best motives even if you don't necessarily meet
Andi Maratos: in a place of agreement.
Andi Maratos: And it all comes around, and it's like, well, it's all been written about before,
Andi Maratos: isn't it? But we all we discover
Andi Maratos: it for ourselves. We discover that truth, and everyone will
Andi Maratos: discover their own version of that truth.
Joanne Lockwood: But tell me a bit about Chrysalis. So you took over as
Joanne Lockwood: CEO 4 and a bit years ago, was it? Around about
Joanne Lockwood: that? Yeah. End of 2017. So however many years ago that I'm not
Andi Maratos: sure. I think we've we've lost like 15 months, haven't we? Did somebody just just
Andi Maratos: like Thielman? Yeah. 4 years give or take with a bit of a COVID lockdown
Joanne Lockwood: in the middle. You you inherited a
Joanne Lockwood: the the reins of an organization that was
Joanne Lockwood: not dynamic and not going as achieving what it could.
Joanne Lockwood: So what what inspired you to take
Joanne Lockwood: over, and what have you kind of what have you imagineered,
Joanne Lockwood: if you like, in that process? I think
Andi Maratos: because I knew what the organization could do. Just because
Andi Maratos: it wasn't doing, it didn't mean it couldn't do it.
Andi Maratos: And by that, I'm I'm talking about, you know,
Andi Maratos: that that vision of really creating safe
Andi Maratos: spaces for everybody who needs the support
Andi Maratos: because in doing that, you create places for
Andi Maratos: people to develop themselves and then you gradually make the world
Andi Maratos: a better place. And
Andi Maratos: that mission of Chrysalis is is core to to my
Andi Maratos: belief, my mission. And so I
Andi Maratos: knew it was possible. And
Andi Maratos: when you're kind of on the edge of something, you
Andi Maratos: can see what's going well, but you can see maybe what you would change.
Andi Maratos: I said, you know, even if something's brilliant, there's always gotta be something that you
Andi Maratos: can improve. And
Andi Maratos: so that was the
Andi Maratos: opportunity to Jo, right, well, these things are great. This is what
Andi Maratos: needs strengthening, but actually, where else do we
Andi Maratos: need things? And getting out there
Andi Maratos: and communicating the vision, communicating my vision,
Andi Maratos: around the area, meeting with people like yourself and others who were like,
Andi Maratos: yeah, we want to be allies.
Andi Maratos: And and I guess just
Andi Maratos: just gathering you all up in the wake of, like, this is really exciting. This
Andi Maratos: is really possible. And
Andi Maratos: I took you all on that journey
Andi Maratos: and you all had faith in me that we would come out
Andi Maratos: and we have. We've come out with
Andi Maratos: bigger, we're stronger, we've got over
Andi Maratos: 200 active members. Now I think, you know, we we
Andi Maratos: were around 50 back then.
Andi Maratos: We've got solid data sets. We've taken all of that knowledge, all of that learning,
Andi Maratos: all of that passion from
Andi Maratos: within and from all our allies and
Andi Maratos: formed it into something that says, no. We're we're really we're
Andi Maratos: going somewhere. Yeah. I've seen the
Joanne Lockwood: change completely. I mean, I knew Christus a little bit
Joanne Lockwood: before I met you in that pub in Southampton 1
Joanne Lockwood: night, the London. I think that's where we first met. Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And I've seen an organization that
Joanne Lockwood: was in the shadows, almost like lurking
Joanne Lockwood: on the edge, right on the other edge in the dark shadows.
Andi Maratos: Yeah. The coming in shameful shadows. Yeah. The shameful shadows coming
Joanne Lockwood: into this into the public view, building relationships
Joanne Lockwood: with organizations, the public sector,
Joanne Lockwood: with private sector clients, being proud of
Joanne Lockwood: not only your own identity as a CEO, but also proud
Joanne Lockwood: of promoting other people's identities. I think that's been a real
Joanne Lockwood: shift, not just because it's also in society where people
Joanne Lockwood: are are feeling less ashamed, less ashamed of who
Joanne Lockwood: they are. And I think Christmas is certainly
Joanne Lockwood: riding that wave and bringing people with the organization
Joanne Lockwood: to to to be prouder of who they are, not feel that they're
Joanne Lockwood: they should hide. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. That that
Andi Maratos: taking that that drive to to be authentic
Andi Maratos: and and and take it inwards and and putting
Andi Maratos: it outwards.
Andi Maratos: Jo I think maybe to Jo back to our analogy about edges,
Andi Maratos: Chrysalis was was trying to exist in the middle
Andi Maratos: and didn't see the power of getting outside of
Andi Maratos: that and just go, no.
Andi Maratos: Difference is awesome. Difference is
Andi Maratos: amazing. Let's not try and conform.
Andi Maratos: Let's value every aspect of every single person who
Andi Maratos: comes to us as a volunteer,
Andi Maratos: as a supporter, as a sponsor, as a as a member,
Andi Maratos: and value and celebrate every aspect of each
Andi Maratos: individual's diversity and difference.
Joanne Lockwood: And you've opened up new income streams, you've gone from a charity that was
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not saying destitute, but certainly
Joanne Lockwood: hand to mouth, week to week. We had 6 months left to
Andi Maratos: live. And
Andi Maratos: yeah. So so the first the first
Andi Maratos: task I had was to fund my salary. So,
Andi Maratos: it's only grateful to tutor trust the trustees there who
Andi Maratos: it's what they do, that they take dreams,
Andi Maratos: and they trust and they show faith and they believe,
Andi Maratos: and they showed faith in me, they showed faith in my dream.
Andi Maratos: And that was enough to then be able to go to to the
Andi Maratos: National Lottery, who really believed
Andi Maratos: in us. And and both of them have been amazing funders.
Andi Maratos: And we're still small. I think 1
Andi Maratos: of the great things about being small
Andi Maratos: is if somebody donate to Fiverr, if somebody does a 100 pound
Andi Maratos: fundraiser on Twitch, that makes a real difference. It's
Andi Maratos: you're never just chucking money. It's
Andi Maratos: we're really light. We're really agile.
Andi Maratos: We're massively, to quote the trustees, punching above
Andi Maratos: our weight
Andi Maratos: because we know what we do is
Andi Maratos: absolutely the best. We took what
Andi Maratos: there was. We made it better, and we're not going to stop
Andi Maratos: keeping on with that improvement. There's a lot
Andi Maratos: of people out there who've been hurt through
Andi Maratos: denial, either themselves or through others, through discrimination,
Andi Maratos: through hatred, and abuse.
Andi Maratos: And they're gonna need our support.
Andi Maratos: But, also, I think even if even if being trans has
Andi Maratos: never caused you any challenges, I think you can
Andi Maratos: still come and and share parts of of what we're
Andi Maratos: doing. Come and celebrate. Come and help other people find
Andi Maratos: authenticity. It's, yeah, not
Andi Maratos: Yeah. Just get involved. Like I said to
Andi Maratos: you earlier, everyone is can be an ally to everyone
Andi Maratos: else. You just need to reach out different. At the end of the
Joanne Lockwood: day, we are we're all different.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. So I'm I'm binary or non
Joanne Lockwood: binary, queer. I still see myself as as queer as
Joanne Lockwood: well. So we all have our own sense of self, so we're we each
Joanne Lockwood: need our own allyship. And, I
Joanne Lockwood: mean, the world isn't a dangerous place at the moment, but there's a lot of
Joanne Lockwood: stuff out there, isn't it? Right now, you look at the media,
Joanne Lockwood: Twitter, it's if you immerse yourself into that
Joanne Lockwood: anti trans rhetoric, it's it's quite a quite a
Joanne Lockwood: strain on on your mental health. I mean, I'm I'm a fairly resilient person,
Joanne Lockwood: and I get worn down and tired by yet another
Joanne Lockwood: attack, yet another article by
Joanne Lockwood: these
Joanne Lockwood: supposed charities and well,
Joanne Lockwood: if you like, with a with doctor and professor and their
Joanne Lockwood: titles quoting their their flavor of gender
Joanne Lockwood: ideology, if you like. I think
Andi Maratos: none of none of that is lived experience.
Andi Maratos: It's exactly what we said. It's take a look inside and
Andi Maratos: don't be scared. When, when I
Andi Maratos: do our training, you know, so
Andi Maratos: celebrate your gender identity.
Andi Maratos: Everybody should be proud to be themselves, be proudly
Andi Maratos: cisgender, be proudly white, be proudly
Andi Maratos: of this heritage or that heritage. It's who you are.
Andi Maratos: Yeah. Every every cis person who introduces
Andi Maratos: themselves as a cis person because they're proud of it
Andi Maratos: is someone who's just got that little
Andi Maratos: bit of extra self awareness. Doesn't mean you have to,
Andi Maratos: Yeah. And,
Andi Maratos: and I think that has actually changed in my mind, that's changed
Andi Maratos: over the last few years. So when I started,
Andi Maratos: doing this, I talk about pronouns and people would look at you blankly, and
Andi Maratos: we'd have to go through the English explanation of what pronouns
Andi Maratos: are. And now pronouns are everywhere.
Andi Maratos: And they might even make them onto Facebook 1 of these days
Andi Maratos: officially.
Andi Maratos: And, Jo
Andi Maratos: I so I trapped myself there. And the same
Andi Maratos: with the term cisgender because
Andi Maratos: when a label is given to people, it
Andi Maratos: hurts. It's itchy. It doesn't fit.
Andi Maratos: Trans as a label, so any transgender and all the
Andi Maratos: older words, they're itchy. They don't fit. They don't adequately
Andi Maratos: describe. Also, they will be used
Andi Maratos: as terms to harm, terms to hurt.
Andi Maratos: But when people own the
Andi Maratos: label and affirm the label, then
Andi Maratos: it kind of rubs some of those edges off. So it fits
Andi Maratos: a bit better for other people who want to try it on
Andi Maratos: and to say, well, okay, it's a bit more roomy in here.
Andi Maratos: It's not that marginalised box that I thought it was.
Andi Maratos: And I'm okay in this space. Or,
Andi Maratos: nah. I tried it on and it didn't
Andi Maratos: fit. And why should you not try on the cisgender label and determine it doesn't
Andi Maratos: fit? It's just the same as trying on the trans label and determine it doesn't
Andi Maratos: fit.
Joanne Lockwood: For sure. And, yeah, we've all tried on various labels and decide
Joanne Lockwood: that's uncomfortable or I'm in the wrong room or I
Joanne Lockwood: tried the right handed label and I know I'm left handed and
Joanne Lockwood: or slightly ambidextrous. So, yeah, I know Well, I just don't like labels, and I'm
Andi Maratos: not trying any of your labels on. I am just me. And don't
Andi Maratos: ask me my pronouns because, quite frankly,
Andi Maratos: that's none of your business. There's another 1.
Joanne Lockwood: Just just call me Jo. Just call me Andi. That's the other way I'm looking
Joanne Lockwood: at it. Jo we're right in the middle of 5 months,
Joanne Lockwood: that's central 5 month. There's a lot of lot of logo
Joanne Lockwood: changing going on. Are you are you seeing a lot of real
Joanne Lockwood: action, real change going on the work you do, or we're just seeing a
Joanne Lockwood: lot of transwashing and pinkwashing going on?
Andi Maratos: I think the people you really need to ask that of are the people in
Andi Maratos: those corporations, the actual staff.
Andi Maratos: I get lots of inquiries and they're
Andi Maratos: lovely inquiries about how we can make our service more
Andi Maratos: trans inclusive. Can we talk to some trans people about why they don't find our
Andi Maratos: service trans inclusive?
Andi Maratos: And I said, well, absolutely, I can work with you. We
Andi Maratos: consult with you on this. We can have 3 hour training sessions. We can properly
Andi Maratos: give you the experience of what it is to be gender diverse, etcetera,
Andi Maratos: etcetera, etcetera. These are all things that you will need to
Andi Maratos: put your hand in your pocket to get because we're a tiny charity and
Andi Maratos: we need your money. But I will give you for free. Have
Andi Maratos: you written your transition at work policy? Because if you haven't,
Andi Maratos: why do you think nobody's coming to you? If you've got
Andi Maratos: any support for the trans people in your organisation.
Andi Maratos: I know we've got to wait another year for the results of
Andi Maratos: the census, but that's,
Andi Maratos: I'm really looking forward to those stats.
Joanne Lockwood: I agree. Those stats will give the
Joanne Lockwood: necessary evidence to ensure that the support is given.
Andi Maratos: Yeah. Respect as well. So respect, acceptance,
Andi Maratos: just, that it's a
Andi Maratos: reality. We in the UK, we've got
Andi Maratos: an opportunity there. We're literally the 1st country to ever actually do
Andi Maratos: that. The opportunity to take our place back at the top
Andi Maratos: of the countries that are great to be
Andi Maratos: LGBT plus rather than slip in further and further down because
Andi Maratos: we've got this weird idea that
Andi Maratos: that there is there's an argument about somebody's
Andi Maratos: reality. There is no no argument of
Andi Maratos: I am me. Yeah.
Andi Maratos: I think conflict to someone else's identity versus another
Joanne Lockwood: person's, like, there is no clash. There is no No. There is there is
Joanne Lockwood: no conflict in that. Being trans, being queer, being LGBTQ
Andi Maratos: plus, it's an aspect of human diversity.
Andi Maratos: And that's as simple as that. I I do, I just wanna
Andi Maratos: say I use the term queer with the caveat that I
Andi Maratos: fully respect that for some people that is
Andi Maratos: not a word that they feel comfortable with. They certainly don't feel
Andi Maratos: comfortable with using, and I'm
Andi Maratos: not using it for anyone,
Andi Maratos: for whom that would feel uncomfortable. For me,
Andi Maratos: it's the word that adequately describes
Andi Maratos: that none of those other labels are quite me.
Andi Maratos: But to go back to thinking about corporate pride
Andi Maratos: and, you know, pink washing, trans washing, or
Andi Maratos: whatever. Put your
Andi Maratos: money where your mouth is. Support your your
Andi Maratos: lgbt networks. Yeah. If your
Andi Maratos: group wants a float at Brighton Pride, then put
Andi Maratos: some money behind giving them a float at Brighton Pride. But
Andi Maratos: make sure you've reviewed your policies at the same
Andi Maratos: time. Chat about all the things that you do. You know,
Andi Maratos: pride 365. And if you can show that you're doing
Andi Maratos: that, then fantastic. But for goodness sake, don't stick up a rainbow
Andi Maratos: in your pub window, when you're
Andi Maratos: on the outskirts of the pride square and do
Andi Maratos: absolutely nothing to challenge the homophobic and
Andi Maratos: transphobic behavior of your punters.
Joanne Lockwood: Amen. Completely agree for sure.
Joanne Lockwood: Well, I can't believe we've hit an hour already. We've been yacking
Joanne Lockwood: away. We didn't get to talk about some of the other things we we were
Joanne Lockwood: we were thinking about beyond gender diversity.
Andi Maratos: We we knew it was going to go in a different direction. Yeah. We knew
Andi Maratos: we knew it wasn't gonna be what we planned. We'll come back to that another
Joanne Lockwood: day because I I've read a blog article back at Valentine's Day about the M
Joanne Lockwood: and S Colin and Connie love nest
Joanne Lockwood: cake you could buy as a gift. And my my blog
Joanne Lockwood: along the been long lines of MNS did a a really great job with
Joanne Lockwood: their LGBT sandwich. They put guacamole in it, created this rainbow
Joanne Lockwood: sandwich. But on Valentine's Day, they they created this
Joanne Lockwood: binary cis het cake
Joanne Lockwood: for people. And I 365. Why don't we
Joanne Lockwood: have a Colin and Colin option, a
Joanne Lockwood: Connie and Connie or Connie, Connie, and Colin
Joanne Lockwood: or Colin, Colin, and a Connie Jo that you
Joanne Lockwood: could mix and match your own cake. Maybe that they
Joanne Lockwood: were gender neutral, not using such gendered names as well Jo that you could name
Joanne Lockwood: your cake, name your characters, and you could
Joanne Lockwood: then be more queer inclusive or or gender
Joanne Lockwood: diversity and sexual diversity inclusive. I think
Andi Maratos: just, yeah, move away from gender being the default
Andi Maratos: categorization. For goodness sake, it's, like, literally 5%
Andi Maratos: of who we are. Mhmm. I I do respect that some
Joanne Lockwood: people find it cute. Some people find that part of their identity,
Joanne Lockwood: but provide options where for people where it doesn't fit their identity
Joanne Lockwood: or they want to explore a different side of their personality.
Andi Maratos: Yeah. No. No. III see what you're saying. But if if the concept of
Andi Maratos: Valentine's Day is romance and love,
Andi Maratos: then gender hasn't necessarily got
Andi Maratos: everything to do with that. That's 2 people meeting.
Joanne Lockwood: Or 3 or 4 or 10. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It
Andi Maratos: could be whatever. Try it to nint
Andi Maratos: listen. Yeah. We can evolve those
Joanne Lockwood: stereotypical days celebrations.
Joanne Lockwood: And I'm not saying we should lose the feeling of Mother's Day or
Joanne Lockwood: Father's Day for people who aren't who don't identify in that
Joanne Lockwood: way. And I was looking on Moonpig and I saw
Joanne Lockwood: some some Father's Day cards to my 2 best
Joanne Lockwood: daddies, and I thought that was fantastic. There's some really great
Joanne Lockwood: diverse thinking going on in the Moon Pick card range. But
Andi Maratos: I found Thoughtful have got some very good, more diverse
Andi Maratos: cards as well. So, yeah, other other card provider dictates. Yeah. You
Andi Maratos: have you have to dig for LG Plus, don't
Andi Maratos: you? And maybe what you said about,
Andi Maratos: corporate prime, every time somebody does something,
Andi Maratos: it's a little bit more inclusive.
Joanne Lockwood: What we need to be doing is having it right at the beginning in the
Joanne Lockwood: marketing, the design, the the ideation stage. Someone
Joanne Lockwood: always says, how can we make AAA queer
Joanne Lockwood: or a gender diverse or a sexually diverse
Joanne Lockwood: inclusive version of this product to make sure it's inclusive for all people?
Andi Maratos: Yeah. Yeah. Go back to core principles. What is the purpose of this
Andi Maratos: particular thing, and how can we make sure everybody can
Andi Maratos: have a a slice of cake? Yeah. I think we've gone beyond
Joanne Lockwood: being worried about upsetting people. I think I'd like to think most of the
Joanne Lockwood: most most people in in in this country are now no
Joanne Lockwood: longer afraid of upsetting people by having a a gay cake or
Joanne Lockwood: whatever it may be, affecting their brand. So I'd like to think we've moved
Joanne Lockwood: past that, in which case that's our challenge, isn't it, to
Joanne Lockwood: to corporate UK?
Andi Maratos: We all want cake. Everybody wants cake.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And we don't necessarily want straight cake or cis cake. We
Joanne Lockwood: want all cake, all identities, and we wanna feel part of it. We wanna be
Joanne Lockwood: included in the same way. Please have vegan cake as well. Vegan
Joanne Lockwood: vegan queer cake. Yeah. That's what we want
Joanne Lockwood: Without a rainbow all over it, just just nice cake. It could be a a
Joanne Lockwood: really nice Victoria's bun or a carrot cake or something. Just something something really
Joanne Lockwood: yummy. Yeah. Thank you. On that
Joanne Lockwood: note on that note, so how can people listening support
Joanne Lockwood: Chrysalis? What's what's the best way to get in touch with you? So
Andi Maratos: we are at Chrysalis gim on all of the
Andi Maratos: social media. So that is Chrysalis, spelled
Andi Maratos: chrysalisgim
Andi Maratos: for gender identity matters. Or you can
Andi Maratos: go on the website, www.chrysalisgim.org.uk.
Andi Maratos: If you haven't had enough of me, I do blog weekly on the
Andi Maratos: CEO blog there. So you can always
Andi Maratos: check out what I'm thinking, and you can drop
Andi Maratos: us a message through Facebook, through Twitter, through the
Andi Maratos: website as well. And I
Joanne Lockwood: have personal experience knowing that you can use Amazon
Joanne Lockwood: Smile and choose Chrysalis as the beneficiary of your charity donation
Joanne Lockwood: from Amazon. Yeah. I also know that on Facebook, when it's your
Joanne Lockwood: birthday, you could nominate a charity and you can also nominate Chrysalis
Joanne Lockwood: within that. And Just Giving, you'll set up on there as well. And
Andi Maratos: many other ways I think you can find us on Just Giving. And,
Andi Maratos: if you go to, charitable.travel when you're
Andi Maratos: booking your hollibobs, you can select Chrysalis
Andi Maratos: as your charity there, and we will get 5% of
Andi Maratos: the cost of your holiday. So if you're planning something maybe for
Andi Maratos: next year, then do consider us.
Andi Maratos: Yeah. There's there's lots of different ways we're we're registered on Give As You Live
Andi Maratos: and and all those other places as well. So yeah. And like I say,
Andi Maratos: every every fiber, every pound really will
Andi Maratos: make a difference to the service that we deliver. So Indeed.
Andi Maratos: Or Yeah. Get involved as a volunteer. Come and find
Andi Maratos: out more about what we do. And, again, drop us a message.
Joanne Lockwood: And I'm a passionate supporter of Chrysalis. I always whenever
Joanne Lockwood: I'm asked to nominate a charity, Chrysalis is the only name
Joanne Lockwood: on the list. And you get my
Joanne Lockwood: Amazon smiles and my Just Givings and my Facebooks wherever I can. So
Joanne Lockwood: and also I give my time. I'm proud to be associated with Chrysalis
Joanne Lockwood: and I know how much support Chrysalis and you personally gave
Joanne Lockwood: me in my vortex days where I was
Joanne Lockwood: confused, and I think it's only right that everybody's
Joanne Lockwood: had the opportunity. So fantastic. Well, thank
Joanne Lockwood: you, and a huge thank you to the listener. Thank you, listener, for tuning
Joanne Lockwood: in and getting to the end here. Fantastic. Thank you very much.
Joanne Lockwood: Please do subscribe to keep updated on future episodes of the
Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion Bites podcast. That's B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends.
Joanne Lockwood: Tell your colleagues. Get them to sign up and subscribe as well. I've got a
Joanne Lockwood: number of other exciting guests lined up, and I'm sure you'll be inspired by them
Joanne Lockwood: over the next few weeks months also. And, of course, if you'd like to be
Joanne Lockwood: a guest or if you have any comments, feedback, suggestions
Joanne Lockwood: on how we can improve, send those to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk.
Joanne Lockwood: I'd love to hear from you, and I'd love for you to be a guest.
Joanne Lockwood: So my name is Joanne Lockwood, and it's been an absolute pleasure to host this
Joanne Lockwood: podcast for you today. Catch you
Joanne Lockwood: next time.
Andi Maratos: Bye.