WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:04.400 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host for the 2 00:00:04.400 --> 00:00:08.000 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a 3 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:11.585 number of amazing people and simply had a conversation around the subject of 4 00:00:11.585 --> 00:00:15.184 inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better 5 00:00:15.184 --> 00:00:18.810 place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then 6 00:00:18.810 --> 00:00:20.910 please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. 7 00:00:21.269 --> 00:00:24.490 that's, S-E-E 8 00:00:24.490 --> 00:00:28.305 Change Happen dot co dot uk. You can catch up with all of 9 00:00:28.305 --> 00:00:31.845 the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify, and the usual places. 10 00:00:32.545 --> 00:00:36.230 So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf, and let's get 11 00:00:36.230 --> 00:00:39.370 going. Today is episode 45 12 00:00:40.230 --> 00:00:44.055 with the title Living on the Edge. And I have the absolute 13 00:00:44.055 --> 00:00:46.315 honor and privilege to be joined by Andi Maratos. 14 00:00:47.655 --> 00:00:51.390 Andi is the CEO of Chrysalis, a charity supporting trans, 15 00:00:51.390 --> 00:00:55.010 non binary and questioning people together with their family and friends. 16 00:00:56.110 --> 00:00:59.785 When I asked Andi to describe their superpower, they said 17 00:00:59.844 --> 00:01:03.445 that they genuinely believe in people. Hello, Andi. 18 00:01:03.445 --> 00:01:06.884 Welcome to the show. Hi, Jo. Thank you so much for 19 00:01:06.884 --> 00:01:10.510 inviting me. It's great to be here. Yes. And 20 00:01:10.510 --> 00:01:14.130 we're this is the day after with the latest announcement that, 21 00:01:14.990 --> 00:01:18.815 lockdown has been extended for yet another 4 weeks 22 00:01:18.815 --> 00:01:22.655 to the end of July now. Another another 4 weeks of talking to people on 23 00:01:22.655 --> 00:01:26.090 Zoom, but I know. It's what it is. I 24 00:01:26.090 --> 00:01:29.890 know. I did my first in person training gig yesterday, and 25 00:01:29.890 --> 00:01:33.610 it was really strange presenting to a a ring full of 26 00:01:33.610 --> 00:01:36.975 people socially distanced. Actual humans. Really, really hard. 27 00:01:38.635 --> 00:01:42.155 Yeah. Say again. Sorry? Actual humans in an actual 28 00:01:42.155 --> 00:01:45.960 space. Actual humans, actual space. Yeah. The challenge was 29 00:01:45.960 --> 00:01:49.480 there was too much space, and it was very difficult to have 30 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:52.672 conversations and talk to each other, but there we are. But yeah. Jo, 31 00:01:53.135 --> 00:01:56.815 hopefully, 1 more month, and we'll be back to 32 00:01:56.815 --> 00:01:59.935 to normal. And we can talk about what we mean by normal in a minute, 33 00:01:59.935 --> 00:02:00.435 Shelley. 34 00:02:03.649 --> 00:02:06.790 Yes. So, Joanne, living on the edge. 35 00:02:07.409 --> 00:02:11.235 We talked about this just now. So what's living on the edge mean to you? 36 00:02:12.275 --> 00:02:14.455 So I think 37 00:02:15.635 --> 00:02:18.935 I've never quite 38 00:02:19.920 --> 00:02:23.760 known the language, fitted in, whatever, see myself in the 39 00:02:23.760 --> 00:02:26.180 space of all of those people over there. 40 00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:31.155 And that flows through everything inside 41 00:02:31.155 --> 00:02:34.135 me. So that's the music. That's my growing up. 42 00:02:35.690 --> 00:02:39.450 Does it enable me to define my gender identity and my 43 00:02:39.450 --> 00:02:43.150 sexuality? Probably all of those things are 44 00:02:43.290 --> 00:02:46.215 are just edges, not quite in there. 45 00:02:46.834 --> 00:02:50.295 But for me, that's, it's a great space 46 00:02:51.155 --> 00:02:53.415 because on the edge, 47 00:02:55.110 --> 00:02:58.950 and I'm sure there's a Pratchett quote in here somewhere, but you can 48 00:02:58.950 --> 00:03:00.250 see things more clearly. 49 00:03:02.585 --> 00:03:05.565 Anybody who knows me knows that I love Pratchett. And 50 00:03:05.944 --> 00:03:09.645 inevitably, there's going to be some quotes that slip in here from, 51 00:03:10.265 --> 00:03:13.350 some of his stories. I think he's, although he's an author, I think he's a 52 00:03:13.350 --> 00:03:14.090 great philosopher. 53 00:03:17.350 --> 00:03:17.850 And 54 00:03:21.064 --> 00:03:24.605 being on the edge. So it makes me see things differently 55 00:03:25.864 --> 00:03:29.349 but it makes me that much more able and 56 00:03:29.349 --> 00:03:31.970 willing to reach out and, 57 00:03:33.909 --> 00:03:37.424 draw others closer to to make the 58 00:03:37.424 --> 00:03:40.944 edge a safe space in and of itself. That it's 59 00:03:40.944 --> 00:03:43.924 okay to be different. That 60 00:03:44.590 --> 00:03:48.290 being different is just as awesome as everything else. 61 00:03:48.830 --> 00:03:52.430 And maybe the the more you look at it, the more you explore 62 00:03:52.430 --> 00:03:56.065 the, the concept, the more you see that 63 00:03:56.065 --> 00:03:58.325 everybody's got a bit of edge inside them. 64 00:04:01.230 --> 00:04:04.849 Yeah. Interesting. I I mean, I I probably spent 65 00:04:05.150 --> 00:04:08.129 the majority of my life tucked in the middle 66 00:04:10.295 --> 00:04:13.974 in typically middle class, typically white, typically 67 00:04:13.974 --> 00:04:17.354 in a family unit, you know, the 2.4 nuclear 68 00:04:17.415 --> 00:04:21.050 family, typically on that wrap run of 69 00:04:21.830 --> 00:04:25.590 acquiring assets, being a good employee, doing as you're 70 00:04:25.590 --> 00:04:29.155 told, growing in the company. I spent a lot of my life in that 71 00:04:29.375 --> 00:04:33.055 in that center middle ground. And since 72 00:04:33.055 --> 00:04:36.255 you're what you say, I would say in the last 4 or 5, maybe 6 73 00:04:36.255 --> 00:04:40.100 years, I've been edging closer to the outside 74 00:04:40.320 --> 00:04:44.160 of that. And when you say you can see things more clearly, 75 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:47.585 I think you're so right. But then when you're in the middle of everything, there's 76 00:04:47.585 --> 00:04:51.425 so much going on, so much conformity. You don't have the chance 77 00:04:51.425 --> 00:04:54.930 to rethink about who you are, what you believe 78 00:04:55.870 --> 00:04:59.070 in. You you just get caught up in that group think and that way you 79 00:04:59.070 --> 00:05:02.905 do stuff. Jo, yeah, I can see that. So what have you learned 80 00:05:03.125 --> 00:05:04.985 from from your edge if you like? 81 00:05:07.044 --> 00:05:10.590 I think, yeah, absolutely. Like you say that there is there's more space. 82 00:05:10.750 --> 00:05:13.970 You can see more, you can be yourself. So, 83 00:05:16.350 --> 00:05:20.104 I like you, I I started off trying 84 00:05:20.104 --> 00:05:23.865 to play the game, trying to fit in, did 85 00:05:23.865 --> 00:05:27.659 all the things that were expected of me like, you know, 86 00:05:27.659 --> 00:05:30.860 going to university, get into that career, get on the ladder. 87 00:05:32.780 --> 00:05:36.534 And then and and in that 88 00:05:36.534 --> 00:05:40.235 time and that space, I was hiding very much I was hiding who I was. 89 00:05:41.495 --> 00:05:45.340 And that's not I say, not necessarily my sexuality or 90 00:05:45.340 --> 00:05:49.040 my gender identity, that's my real intrinsic 91 00:05:49.180 --> 00:05:52.914 me. That's the me that makes me who I am, which is much more than 92 00:05:52.914 --> 00:05:56.595 that. That's the alternative me, the me that thinks differently, that 93 00:05:56.595 --> 00:06:00.430 sees things differently, that literally does 94 00:06:00.430 --> 00:06:03.410 not have anything else in the wardrobe that's not black. 95 00:06:05.550 --> 00:06:09.345 And I tried to conceal that. I tried to conform. 96 00:06:09.345 --> 00:06:12.785 I tried to pretend, and I tried to listen to the language and be like 97 00:06:12.785 --> 00:06:16.420 everyone else. And it just doesn't work. 98 00:06:18.080 --> 00:06:19.940 And eventually, 99 00:06:22.534 --> 00:06:26.134 I got made redundant kind of thing happens to everybody. Well, not everybody, 100 00:06:26.134 --> 00:06:29.735 but a lot of people go through that. It's a life changing moment. It's a 101 00:06:29.735 --> 00:06:33.389 time to reevaluate. And I found 102 00:06:33.389 --> 00:06:37.229 myself out of the corporate world and into 103 00:06:37.229 --> 00:06:40.905 the education world. And in there, I 104 00:06:40.905 --> 00:06:44.745 started to find a place of much more 105 00:06:44.745 --> 00:06:48.450 collaboration. Business manufacturing, it's all 106 00:06:48.450 --> 00:06:51.750 about competition. It's all about guarding your secrets. 107 00:06:52.130 --> 00:06:55.825 But in education, we were there to try and help each other grow 108 00:06:55.825 --> 00:06:59.505 and develop and nurture. And even though that's 109 00:06:59.505 --> 00:07:03.030 the job of the institution to do for the students, it 110 00:07:03.030 --> 00:07:05.449 also does for the staff and everyone connected. 111 00:07:06.389 --> 00:07:10.134 And so I started 112 00:07:10.134 --> 00:07:13.755 to grow and develop and to to reach out and start to feel 113 00:07:14.535 --> 00:07:16.395 who my real me was. 114 00:07:18.860 --> 00:07:22.620 And I went I said 115 00:07:22.620 --> 00:07:26.195 to my boss, would it be okay if I 116 00:07:26.195 --> 00:07:30.035 got stuff put in my hair? Because I'm going 117 00:07:30.035 --> 00:07:33.570 to an event, and it takes quite a while to get this 118 00:07:33.570 --> 00:07:34.550 stuff installed. 119 00:07:39.490 --> 00:07:42.450 And, it's I'm gonna have to be coming into work and sitting at my desk 120 00:07:42.450 --> 00:07:46.175 in front of you looking a bit weird for a while. For me to 121 00:07:46.175 --> 00:07:49.475 have that conversation with my boss, who's a former army 122 00:07:49.775 --> 00:07:53.420 officer, quite proper, was a massive thing. And 123 00:07:53.420 --> 00:07:57.260 he said, as long as it's not pink, I don't mind. And 124 00:07:57.260 --> 00:08:00.865 I thought, how little you know me? It would 125 00:08:00.865 --> 00:08:04.225 literally it it might be any other color, but it's never gonna be pink. But 126 00:08:04.225 --> 00:08:07.270 I think that it's just that absolute 127 00:08:08.130 --> 00:08:11.729 yeah absolutely you are welcome here as 128 00:08:11.729 --> 00:08:15.474 you. Was like oh, 129 00:08:15.935 --> 00:08:19.715 wow. I've kind of kind of found my space. 130 00:08:22.574 --> 00:08:26.220 And I haven't told this story 131 00:08:26.220 --> 00:08:29.819 for ages now, actually, but it still gets 132 00:08:29.819 --> 00:08:33.385 me because, yeah, he 133 00:08:33.385 --> 00:08:37.065 was a ex army, but 134 00:08:37.065 --> 00:08:40.559 he would we were in student accommodation and you needed 135 00:08:40.620 --> 00:08:44.240 someone who just totally got the people or individuals first 136 00:08:44.780 --> 00:08:48.555 and that you come to university to develop yourself and that he really 137 00:08:48.555 --> 00:08:51.215 valued that in his staff and his team as well. 138 00:08:52.875 --> 00:08:56.350 And I think that was the switch that flicked. That said 139 00:08:56.350 --> 00:09:00.029 you don't have to keep pretending. You don't have 140 00:09:00.029 --> 00:09:03.870 to understand that way of 141 00:09:03.870 --> 00:09:07.445 being Because actually what you've got 142 00:09:07.445 --> 00:09:11.045 is more than that. What you've got is different. What you've got 143 00:09:11.045 --> 00:09:14.585 is valuable. What you've got in yourself 144 00:09:15.510 --> 00:09:19.190 can create a world where it's okay to be 145 00:09:19.190 --> 00:09:19.690 you. 146 00:09:23.735 --> 00:09:27.275 The yeah. The being on the edge, living on the edge is valuable 147 00:09:28.135 --> 00:09:31.970 and creates change. And, yeah, from 148 00:09:31.970 --> 00:09:35.810 from there, maybe I stuck around in that job a little bit long. I 149 00:09:35.810 --> 00:09:38.790 was within the education sector for 150 00:09:39.195 --> 00:09:42.655 15 years. I I came out there. 151 00:09:43.115 --> 00:09:46.600 But I think yeah. I came out as alternative. I started 152 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:49.420 being visible as my whole authentic self. 153 00:09:50.120 --> 00:09:53.260 And from that, I gained confidence 154 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:57.975 in in my authentic me, in 155 00:09:57.975 --> 00:10:01.575 my knowledge, in my brain, in my abilities to go 156 00:10:01.575 --> 00:10:05.200 forward, to go back into education, to learn more, and 157 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:09.040 eventually to, take the risk, take the leap to 158 00:10:09.040 --> 00:10:12.339 take on chrysalis. That, 159 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:16.245 yes, I really could do it. So 160 00:10:16.944 --> 00:10:20.625 yeah that was 2017, I took a 161 00:10:20.625 --> 00:10:24.430 risk, I believed in me and 162 00:10:24.430 --> 00:10:26.290 I believed in my individuality. 163 00:10:28.910 --> 00:10:32.524 And I believed it was strong enough that that belief 164 00:10:33.145 --> 00:10:36.445 could carry through and believe in all the other people involved. 165 00:10:37.625 --> 00:10:41.470 And with that belief, we 166 00:10:41.470 --> 00:10:44.770 could all become our authentic selves. 167 00:10:48.035 --> 00:10:51.254 It's interesting what you said about coming out as alternative. 168 00:10:52.355 --> 00:10:56.115 I mean, III think back to so I'm I was born in the 169 00:10:56.115 --> 00:10:59.779 mid sixties. I So my kinda growing up formative kinda year 170 00:10:59.779 --> 00:11:03.460 with seventies, in 171 00:11:03.460 --> 00:11:07.015 those days, people used to align themselves 172 00:11:07.075 --> 00:11:10.515 more with music. So punk, you had 173 00:11:10.515 --> 00:11:14.220 rockers, you had, goths, 174 00:11:14.600 --> 00:11:17.019 you had Joanne of The Smiths. 175 00:11:19.394 --> 00:11:22.615 Jo people used to align themselves with with their identities around that. And, of course, 176 00:11:22.615 --> 00:11:26.455 we had the new romantics of the early early eighties, the Duran Duran, the 177 00:11:26.455 --> 00:11:29.910 Simon of Bonsolin. So people didn't really 178 00:11:30.130 --> 00:11:33.490 come out as alternative. They were part of a music 179 00:11:33.490 --> 00:11:37.255 crowd sort of thing. People were punk, people were 180 00:11:37.255 --> 00:11:40.795 rockers. Not in not in the corporate world. 181 00:11:41.495 --> 00:11:45.120 Absolutely. No. Not in the corporate world. No. But but you can decide 182 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:47.940 to weekend. Precisely. Yeah. 183 00:11:49.040 --> 00:11:51.460 But you I I've 184 00:11:52.665 --> 00:11:56.365 I've spoken with colleagues who, you know, they take all their piercings 185 00:11:56.425 --> 00:12:00.185 out for an interview. Guys who wouldn't even have 186 00:12:00.185 --> 00:12:02.310 like 1 piercing. 187 00:12:04.050 --> 00:12:07.730 Yeah. Certainly in the nineties, you you just wouldn't 188 00:12:07.730 --> 00:12:10.894 be seen as you. I think hair color, 189 00:12:11.195 --> 00:12:12.255 visible tattoos, 190 00:12:15.115 --> 00:12:18.610 and I think those changes that have been 191 00:12:18.610 --> 00:12:22.450 driven by those of us who for whom that is an intrinsic part of who 192 00:12:22.450 --> 00:12:26.210 we are, but we've gradually moved up in whatever fields. We've 193 00:12:26.210 --> 00:12:29.834 seen that, oh my goodness, a tattoo is not going to destroy 194 00:12:29.834 --> 00:12:33.514 somebody's ability to perform a function or to to do a job. So 195 00:12:33.514 --> 00:12:37.360 things have shifted, I 196 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:41.040 guess I'm kinda kinda 197 00:12:41.040 --> 00:12:42.820 going sideways, but this is me. 198 00:12:45.385 --> 00:12:48.825 I think that the change that started with all 199 00:12:48.825 --> 00:12:52.205 those subcultures are certainly in in the UK with the musical 200 00:12:52.584 --> 00:12:56.130 subcultures. I do think that that has been 201 00:12:56.130 --> 00:12:58.070 part of what's progressed the wider, 202 00:13:00.130 --> 00:13:00.630 inclusion. 203 00:13:04.335 --> 00:13:05.955 I don't wanna use the word agenda. 204 00:13:07.775 --> 00:13:11.320 Change. You know, just that that greater acceptance, greater 205 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:15.000 understanding of all kinds of diversity and 206 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:18.665 that and I suppose because music is something that you 207 00:13:18.665 --> 00:13:22.205 control, that level of self agency 208 00:13:22.985 --> 00:13:26.660 that is just an aspect of who you are. And 209 00:13:26.660 --> 00:13:29.240 if you wanna grow your hair or if you want to have a tattoo, 210 00:13:30.339 --> 00:13:33.964 then it doesn't change who you are. But I still think 211 00:13:33.964 --> 00:13:37.345 we're a very long way from that being acceptable 212 00:13:38.685 --> 00:13:42.500 at senior level. I think there 213 00:13:42.500 --> 00:13:45.720 are small pockets. I think it is coming up. 214 00:13:46.715 --> 00:13:49.695 But I was on a call earlier watching lots of, 215 00:13:51.595 --> 00:13:55.135 executives talk about how, they're fantastic 216 00:13:55.275 --> 00:13:58.649 allies, to the LGBT community from 217 00:13:58.649 --> 00:14:01.790 their, you know, senior positions. 218 00:14:02.810 --> 00:14:06.265 And they all 219 00:14:06.405 --> 00:14:09.925 looked incredibly conformist. In 220 00:14:09.925 --> 00:14:13.705 that every single person using he, him pronouns 221 00:14:14.460 --> 00:14:18.140 was wearing a shirt, and so on and and 222 00:14:18.140 --> 00:14:21.680 so forth. And so I think we're still a long way away 223 00:14:22.300 --> 00:14:22.800 from 224 00:14:26.045 --> 00:14:29.725 relaxing completely and meeting people on 225 00:14:29.725 --> 00:14:33.490 that actual genuine level Jo that 226 00:14:33.490 --> 00:14:36.790 then they can become that best person. 227 00:14:37.330 --> 00:14:40.755 We still got all the assumptions and the 228 00:14:41.375 --> 00:14:44.595 the covering, the need to perform in a particular way. 229 00:14:47.780 --> 00:14:51.540 We've come out of the weekend shadows into the mainstream over the 230 00:14:51.540 --> 00:14:55.345 last 10 or so years. As you say, we 231 00:14:55.345 --> 00:14:58.404 were in the seventies and eighties, we were kind of 232 00:14:59.264 --> 00:15:02.945 weekend punks. We were And it's huge culture as well 233 00:15:03.024 --> 00:15:06.810 Yeah. I think. And that certainly, 234 00:15:07.110 --> 00:15:10.790 you know, shifted. You know, we've we've grown up. That doesn't mean that there's not 235 00:15:10.790 --> 00:15:13.975 young people in all of the scenes, but, yes, it has 236 00:15:14.755 --> 00:15:18.595 certainly become much more. But it it took the rock and 237 00:15:18.595 --> 00:15:22.100 roll era and the sixties era to start 238 00:15:22.100 --> 00:15:25.860 establishing youth culture to none. I guess in the seventies, there weren't enough 239 00:15:25.860 --> 00:15:29.540 people old enough to be not youth culture. People were still in 240 00:15:29.540 --> 00:15:33.385 their mid thirties, late thirties. Jo now that we've 241 00:15:33.385 --> 00:15:36.904 got people who have come through that era Mhmm. Of that 242 00:15:36.904 --> 00:15:40.730 freedom, that youth culture to understand that we're taking that I'm taking 243 00:15:40.730 --> 00:15:44.170 that into my fifties and sixties now. Yeah. Whereas my my 244 00:15:44.170 --> 00:15:47.550 parents, they were brought up in an era that that forgotten 245 00:15:47.610 --> 00:15:50.475 generation, that wartime 246 00:15:51.735 --> 00:15:55.175 yeah. They were born on the cusp of of the outbreak of war. So they 247 00:15:55.175 --> 00:15:58.615 didn't already have that freedom in their teenage years to 248 00:15:58.615 --> 00:16:02.350 express. And maybe, as I say, maybe the the 249 00:16:02.350 --> 00:16:06.190 rock and roll is where the first teenage culture came from, isn't it? 250 00:16:06.190 --> 00:16:09.010 But yeah. I agree. But I think that there's 251 00:16:13.635 --> 00:16:15.975 maybe, an over, 252 00:16:17.394 --> 00:16:20.680 focus on very small groups. 253 00:16:21.300 --> 00:16:24.839 So people talk about the hippies. There were not that many hippies. 254 00:16:26.019 --> 00:16:29.385 If there were, we'd be living in a very different world right now than the 255 00:16:29.385 --> 00:16:33.144 1 we're in. And and the same with 256 00:16:33.144 --> 00:16:36.620 with the, the subcultures, the the culture 257 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:39.899 of normality, the culture of, as you said, that, 258 00:16:41.880 --> 00:16:45.525 go on down the 2.4a half a dog path, 259 00:16:45.825 --> 00:16:49.585 do not question, do not assume. Oh my goodness. There's definitely no 260 00:16:49.585 --> 00:16:52.005 way that we're ever gonna tell anybody that we're gay. 261 00:16:54.380 --> 00:16:57.980 Space that was was prevalent all the certainly all the way through the 262 00:16:57.980 --> 00:17:01.820 eighties. Oh, HIV. Yeah. Yeah. 263 00:17:01.820 --> 00:17:05.635 The the original partial partial to criminalization of homosexuality in 1967. 264 00:17:06.415 --> 00:17:10.095 And as soon as that that freedom was it was allowed, then the 265 00:17:10.095 --> 00:17:13.410 HIV AIDS epidemic took over, 266 00:17:13.710 --> 00:17:17.150 which kind of put a kibosh on that 267 00:17:17.150 --> 00:17:20.855 freedom of expression that people then had. And section 28, I mean, 268 00:17:20.855 --> 00:17:24.635 all those other things going on, you know, promoting promotion 269 00:17:25.654 --> 00:17:29.070 of gay education in schools. 270 00:17:29.610 --> 00:17:33.290 So that all that kind of restifled that and it's now only that 271 00:17:33.290 --> 00:17:36.955 we've got past over that that constraint, if you 272 00:17:36.955 --> 00:17:40.795 like, we're now able to start restart expressing ourselves. You 273 00:17:40.795 --> 00:17:44.460 say we've got past it? Well, it 274 00:17:44.700 --> 00:17:48.460 from a sexuality, maybe, potentially, point of view, but we still see it in 275 00:17:48.460 --> 00:17:51.660 Hungary. We see it in Poland at the moment. We see it in many territories 276 00:17:51.660 --> 00:17:55.255 in the world. But and even in much of 277 00:17:55.255 --> 00:17:58.934 America, even though the UK is not perfect, it's it's a lot 278 00:17:58.934 --> 00:18:02.650 more liberal, a lot more tolerant and accepting of of varying 279 00:18:02.650 --> 00:18:05.850 identities than many places in the world. You know, I'm not saying we should be 280 00:18:05.850 --> 00:18:09.530 count as lucky or anything because there are still areas where there's a lot to 281 00:18:09.530 --> 00:18:12.175 work to do, but we do have it relatively 282 00:18:14.075 --> 00:18:17.595 easier in terms of identity and expression than many other 283 00:18:17.595 --> 00:18:19.215 countries in the world at the moment. 284 00:18:22.330 --> 00:18:26.169 But I do wonder whether we talk ourselves interfering that it's not 285 00:18:26.169 --> 00:18:29.825 so so great. Yeah. I 286 00:18:30.045 --> 00:18:32.945 mean, Twitter, some of the Sunday 287 00:18:33.645 --> 00:18:37.380 royalties and tabloids, the constant barrage of of hate 288 00:18:37.380 --> 00:18:40.900 that goes on around certain communities, the the polarization of the 289 00:18:40.900 --> 00:18:44.580 media, stirring up discord where it doesn't need to 290 00:18:44.580 --> 00:18:48.235 doesn't need to be there, creating this big debate around taking the 291 00:18:48.235 --> 00:18:51.135 knee black lives matter, put this hope but pitching 292 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:57.120 pitching people against each other all the time, trying to create this this debate in 293 00:18:57.120 --> 00:19:00.825 the media. Yeah. Debate. Yeah. Telling people 294 00:19:00.825 --> 00:19:04.664 they have to have a side, whereas before people could form their own 295 00:19:04.664 --> 00:19:08.265 minds, but now they've been given a side because their their culture, their background, their 296 00:19:08.265 --> 00:19:12.050 tribe, whatever it may be. And and that that's you have to have a 297 00:19:12.050 --> 00:19:15.730 side. You can't have an opinion or a thought or a feeling or 298 00:19:15.730 --> 00:19:19.505 an experience. That is not nuanced. It has to be a side. And if you 299 00:19:19.505 --> 00:19:22.404 have to have a side, then we have to define it. And, actually, 300 00:19:23.105 --> 00:19:26.830 we're talking about edges. There there there 301 00:19:26.830 --> 00:19:30.610 is no no other side, is there? You know? 302 00:19:31.950 --> 00:19:35.455 I mean, without I'm not gonna express my view on taking the knee, 303 00:19:35.534 --> 00:19:39.375 but what what 1 view I do have, which is a core belief 304 00:19:39.375 --> 00:19:43.135 of mine, it matters to some people, therefore it matters to me, it 305 00:19:43.135 --> 00:19:46.950 matters to them. So whatever I my feelings on it are, and 306 00:19:46.950 --> 00:19:50.470 they're not negative, the overriding thing for me is it's not 307 00:19:50.470 --> 00:19:54.265 my it's not my cause. It's not my thing I wanna do, but if 308 00:19:54.265 --> 00:19:57.785 it matters to you, I support you in what you do. And a lot of 309 00:19:57.785 --> 00:20:01.500 people don't see that as a conclusion of their 310 00:20:01.500 --> 00:20:05.260 thought process. They wanna debate whether it's right or wrong. I don't care if it's 311 00:20:05.260 --> 00:20:08.885 right or wrong. I care that you care. Yeah. And that's that, 312 00:20:09.265 --> 00:20:12.705 when coming back to talking about the superpower of belief in 313 00:20:12.705 --> 00:20:16.389 people that believing 314 00:20:16.529 --> 00:20:19.870 that you, you 315 00:20:19.870 --> 00:20:23.190 Jo, are important. 316 00:20:23.409 --> 00:20:26.865 Your belief structure is important. The actions you take, the 317 00:20:26.865 --> 00:20:30.705 reality that you described to me is absolutely true and 318 00:20:30.705 --> 00:20:34.240 valid and important. Listening 319 00:20:35.500 --> 00:20:39.340 is is where it comes down to, isn't it? But that's the that's 320 00:20:39.340 --> 00:20:43.175 the power that that really delivers positive 321 00:20:43.315 --> 00:20:43.815 change. 322 00:20:46.915 --> 00:20:50.497 If I ignore all of those things and you tell me what's important to to 323 00:20:50.497 --> 00:20:52.779 you and I still ignore you, then 324 00:20:54.440 --> 00:20:58.195 we're not gonna get anywhere. Yeah. And 325 00:20:58.195 --> 00:21:01.655 whenever I talk to people, whenever I train, whenever I consult with people, 326 00:21:01.955 --> 00:21:05.735 I always come from the view that as human beings, we don't get up 327 00:21:06.430 --> 00:21:10.030 and set off the day to be nasty or have bad 328 00:21:10.030 --> 00:21:13.870 intent. And all I say is to people is this is what 329 00:21:13.870 --> 00:21:17.295 makes me happy and this is what makes me sad. And I know generally, 330 00:21:17.515 --> 00:21:21.055 you just wanna make people happy. So these are the things that make me happy. 331 00:21:21.435 --> 00:21:25.160 And if we can stick to those, I'm fine. We're fine. And 332 00:21:25.700 --> 00:21:28.900 maybe it's because I've got a clear understanding of what does make me sad and 333 00:21:28.900 --> 00:21:32.575 what makes me unhappy because of my identity, 334 00:21:32.715 --> 00:21:36.235 because of some of the, the struggles I've had in the last few years. Maybe 335 00:21:36.235 --> 00:21:39.855 other people don't realize through their privilege or their lens 336 00:21:40.179 --> 00:21:44.019 that they actually got privileged. In the middle. Yeah. Again, thinking about taking it 337 00:21:44.259 --> 00:21:48.075 taking yourself out and having a look at yourself. And and 338 00:21:48.075 --> 00:21:51.755 what does that mean? That that being being an alternative for me, that 339 00:21:51.835 --> 00:21:55.435 that's, a subcultural thing, but it's being alternative to the 340 00:21:55.435 --> 00:21:59.179 mainstream in in whatever way, isn't it? And doing that work. 341 00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:03.720 Whereas if you're comfortable in the middle, if 342 00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:06.665 you've never felt that tension, if you've never, 343 00:22:10.585 --> 00:22:14.380 if everything you've tried has worked okay, then that's 344 00:22:14.380 --> 00:22:17.740 alright. And you don't you haven't done that work. You haven't thought about who you 345 00:22:17.740 --> 00:22:21.500 are. So you don't really know what makes you 346 00:22:21.500 --> 00:22:25.245 happy because you've never really bumped up against the things 347 00:22:26.425 --> 00:22:29.085 that don't make you happy. And 348 00:22:30.460 --> 00:22:33.919 in counseling, so I'm a person centered therapist. 349 00:22:34.860 --> 00:22:38.700 And our second principle for 350 00:22:38.700 --> 00:22:42.415 for therapy is that the client needs to be in 351 00:22:42.415 --> 00:22:46.095 a state of incongruence. You need to have realized that something's not 352 00:22:46.095 --> 00:22:49.770 right. You need to have experienced something out of alignment 353 00:22:50.550 --> 00:22:54.090 in order to go and want to actively change it. 354 00:22:56.784 --> 00:23:00.225 Yeah. I think when you know, going back to what you're saying about this 355 00:23:00.225 --> 00:23:04.040 space on the edge, in the center, it's very densely 356 00:23:04.040 --> 00:23:07.880 packed, isn't it? It's suffocating. There's no room to stretch. There's no 357 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:11.544 room to sort of enhance and develop. I think you're so right. On the on 358 00:23:11.544 --> 00:23:15.225 the edge, there is more grass. There is more free space. We're living 359 00:23:15.304 --> 00:23:17.945 instead of living in the center of the city, we're living in the country, we're 360 00:23:17.945 --> 00:23:20.860 living on the beach, and I've got my own space. 361 00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:25.320 And I I love the way that we we have an identity now of 362 00:23:25.320 --> 00:23:29.085 questioning. I think questioning is brilliant. That's me 363 00:23:29.544 --> 00:23:33.225 cross legged in a grassy field somewhere just trying to figure 364 00:23:33.225 --> 00:23:36.720 out who I am, what life's about, what my direction is without 365 00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:40.559 having noise in my head all the time. So you must do this, 366 00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:44.320 get on the conveyor belt, get off at the next exit, drive and 367 00:23:44.320 --> 00:23:47.705 drive. And I think questioning was a was a fantastic place for me to 368 00:23:47.705 --> 00:23:51.305 be where I just figured stuff out without that 369 00:23:51.305 --> 00:23:55.140 pressure, but you need to go out of the center. And it's safe in the 370 00:23:55.140 --> 00:23:58.900 middle. It's Jo safe in the middle. You 371 00:23:59.060 --> 00:24:01.895 if you don't challenge things, then 372 00:24:04.355 --> 00:24:06.535 you're not risking much. 373 00:24:08.275 --> 00:24:11.010 And I guess 374 00:24:13.710 --> 00:24:17.390 we're all capable of achieving intellectually whatever we 375 00:24:17.390 --> 00:24:21.145 achieve. And with people take risks in business 376 00:24:21.145 --> 00:24:24.905 or whatever. But if you're in the middle, you 377 00:24:24.905 --> 00:24:27.945 can do all of those things and look like you're progressing, but you're not taking 378 00:24:27.945 --> 00:24:31.430 risks with your core being. You're not 379 00:24:31.490 --> 00:24:33.750 going, what if? 380 00:24:35.785 --> 00:24:39.545 Yeah. You're not taking that walk down the street when 381 00:24:39.545 --> 00:24:42.365 you absolutely know that 382 00:24:43.300 --> 00:24:47.140 you're gonna get something shouted at you. Because you don't need 383 00:24:47.140 --> 00:24:47.640 to. 384 00:24:57.285 --> 00:25:00.265 I had a thought. Where did my thought go, Jo? 385 00:25:02.470 --> 00:25:06.150 Well, people shouting at you. People shouting at 386 00:25:06.150 --> 00:25:09.830 you. And that's that's just 1 387 00:25:09.830 --> 00:25:13.595 1 example. But it is about 388 00:25:14.455 --> 00:25:18.215 stepping outside your comfort zone. And they're they're cliches that turn to people 389 00:25:18.215 --> 00:25:20.154 like, oh, god. I don't wanna do that. 390 00:25:22.450 --> 00:25:26.230 But actually, it's amazing. 391 00:25:27.570 --> 00:25:30.790 It's amazing being different because 392 00:25:31.655 --> 00:25:35.335 you can do so much more. You can you can 393 00:25:35.335 --> 00:25:38.775 take a charity and go, no, it's gonna be like 394 00:25:38.775 --> 00:25:42.600 this. And and it is. 395 00:25:43.539 --> 00:25:45.720 And we've gone 396 00:25:46.980 --> 00:25:50.485 stratospheric, really, with the the support that we're offering. 397 00:25:52.065 --> 00:25:54.565 If you're if you're different, you can go, 398 00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:59.059 oh, heck. Lockdown. 399 00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:04.015 Better do something. Turn on a 6 months 400 00:26:04.015 --> 00:26:05.795 because you're used to not 401 00:26:07.695 --> 00:26:11.090