WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.439 --> 00:00:04.960 Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for the 2 00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:08.800 Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number 3 00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:12.465 of amazing people and simply had a conversation around the subject of 4 00:00:12.465 --> 00:00:16.224 inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better 5 00:00:16.224 --> 00:00:19.730 place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the 6 00:00:19.730 --> 00:00:22.550 future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@changehappen.co.uk. 7 00:00:25.730 --> 00:00:29.433 That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co 8 00:00:29.434 --> 00:00:32.395 dot uk. You'll be able to catch up with all of the previous shows on 9 00:00:32.395 --> 00:00:36.140 ITunes, Spotify, at the usual places. So 10 00:00:36.140 --> 00:00:39.660 plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's 11 00:00:39.660 --> 00:00:43.440 get going. Today is episode 46, 12 00:00:44.454 --> 00:00:47.815 with the title Stretching Imaginations to 13 00:00:47.815 --> 00:00:51.655 Achieve What's Possible. And I have the absolute honor and 14 00:00:51.655 --> 00:00:55.420 privilege to be joined by Marcus Cauchi. Marcus 15 00:00:55.480 --> 00:00:58.699 describes himself as someone who challenges idiocy 16 00:00:59.239 --> 00:01:02.140 and attachment to traditional ways of doing things. 17 00:01:02.925 --> 00:01:06.705 When I asked Marcus to describe his superpower, he said it's 18 00:01:07.005 --> 00:01:10.625 being able to ask shitty and uncomfortable questions. 19 00:01:11.370 --> 00:01:15.136 Hello, Marcus. Welcome to the show. Hi, Jo. 20 00:01:15.210 --> 00:01:18.890 Thanks for having me. My pleasure. Been looking 21 00:01:18.890 --> 00:01:22.635 forward to this for some time. So, Marcus, we were talking 22 00:01:22.635 --> 00:01:26.475 just now before we started about stretching imaginations to achieve 23 00:01:26.475 --> 00:01:28.655 what's possible. What do you mean by that? 24 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:34.679 There's a lovely quote from Mark Twain that your eyes won't see when 25 00:01:34.679 --> 00:01:38.140 your imagination is out of focus. And 26 00:01:38.955 --> 00:01:42.635 I see an awful lot of attachment to this is the way 27 00:01:42.635 --> 00:01:46.310 we've always done it. People 28 00:01:46.530 --> 00:01:50.370 holding on to received wisdom, which is anything 29 00:01:50.370 --> 00:01:53.830 but wise. There's a lovely story. 30 00:01:54.585 --> 00:01:57.785 Whether it's true or not doesn't really matter. Never let the truth get in. We 31 00:01:57.785 --> 00:02:01.545 have a good story. In the 19 seventies, there was a captain 32 00:02:01.545 --> 00:02:04.960 who was commissioned to observe and, 33 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:08.019 do a time and motion study on artillery firing. 34 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:11.860 And he was watching these gunners load these guns, 35 00:02:12.605 --> 00:02:16.444 and, after they, carried the shell and, put it in the back 36 00:02:16.444 --> 00:02:19.965 of the breach, and closed it, 1 of them would turn 37 00:02:19.965 --> 00:02:23.790 around, stand to attention facing Lockwood, and 38 00:02:23.790 --> 00:02:27.629 the other 1 would march 8 paces, turn around, stand to attention with his 39 00:02:27.629 --> 00:02:30.775 right hand behind his back and hold up his left arm. 40 00:02:31.155 --> 00:02:33.815 And he couldn't understand why they were doing this. 41 00:02:35.635 --> 00:02:39.480 And the the 1, who walked backwards would nod and then the other 42 00:02:39.480 --> 00:02:43.239 1 would fire the gun. Anyway, long story short, 43 00:02:43.239 --> 00:02:46.185 he asked them why and said, well, no idea. That's the way we were trained 44 00:02:46.185 --> 00:02:49.945 to train, trained to fire the guns. And that's why, we fire the 45 00:02:49.945 --> 00:02:53.710 guns in this man's army set Who trained you? The gunnery sergeant. 46 00:02:53.770 --> 00:02:57.610 So off they went off, you went to the gunnery sergeant Gunny. Why do you 47 00:02:57.610 --> 00:03:00.405 teach them to do it this way? That's the way I was trained to train 48 00:03:00.405 --> 00:03:03.045 them, sir. That's the way we train them in this man's army, sir. That's the 49 00:03:03.045 --> 00:03:06.645 way we fire the guns in this man's army, sir. So after, 50 00:03:06.965 --> 00:03:10.650 you know, a couple of weeks of observing this behavior, he couldn't 51 00:03:10.650 --> 00:03:14.410 fathom for the any any reason why they would do this. And he 52 00:03:14.410 --> 00:03:17.390 was in the pub outside the barracks in Lark Hill. 53 00:03:18.845 --> 00:03:22.605 And, this old codger came in who had been in world 54 00:03:22.605 --> 00:03:26.145 war 1 as a gunner and said, have you got any idea 55 00:03:26.500 --> 00:03:29.940 why they do this? And so, Oh yeah, they're holding the horses. Now they haven't 56 00:03:29.940 --> 00:03:33.220 had horse drawn artillery for 50 years. And, 57 00:03:33.700 --> 00:03:36.974 my question is always, why are you holding the horses? 58 00:03:37.674 --> 00:03:41.055 If you want better answers, you have to ask better questions. 59 00:03:41.674 --> 00:03:45.520 And self reflection is something that almost never 60 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:48.500 happens because people are so busy and fixated 61 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:53.105 on doing things the way they've always done them. They don't question. I 62 00:03:53.105 --> 00:03:56.785 reckon any important process needs to be reviewed every 3 63 00:03:56.785 --> 00:04:00.405 months. Why why did we start doing it this way? 64 00:04:00.870 --> 00:04:04.230 Why are we still doing it? Does it serve us? Does it serve our 65 00:04:04.230 --> 00:04:07.990 customers? Does it serve our people? And if it doesn't, is there 66 00:04:07.990 --> 00:04:10.535 a better way? And if so, what is it? 67 00:04:11.655 --> 00:04:15.355 And, you know, I'd if we bring this into the context of, 68 00:04:15.735 --> 00:04:18.955 diversity, equity and inclusion, 69 00:04:20.470 --> 00:04:23.210 why is it we recruit people of a certain type. 70 00:04:24.230 --> 00:04:27.930 Most of my work is around sales. And if you listen to the tonality 71 00:04:29.095 --> 00:04:32.615 of, a salesperson, are they 72 00:04:32.615 --> 00:04:36.294 somebody who is heavily motivated by 73 00:04:36.294 --> 00:04:39.870 scale, self interest and scarcity or dog eat 74 00:04:39.870 --> 00:04:43.010 dog, because that means that they're probably a taker. 75 00:04:44.910 --> 00:04:48.465 If they are heavily focused on self interest 76 00:04:49.005 --> 00:04:51.664 and abundance, they're really more interested 77 00:04:52.365 --> 00:04:54.625 in keeping what they've got. 78 00:04:56.330 --> 00:04:59.550 If they are somebody who is focused on 79 00:05:00.090 --> 00:05:03.824 delivering universal value, but also scarcity, They're 80 00:05:03.824 --> 00:05:06.645 probably someone who's very much about control. 81 00:05:07.425 --> 00:05:11.010 And if they're abundance, thinkers and 82 00:05:11.010 --> 00:05:14.850 they have universal value, as key drivers, 83 00:05:14.850 --> 00:05:18.450 then they're very much focused on service. So I 84 00:05:18.450 --> 00:05:22.235 want people who want to serve. I don't want 85 00:05:22.235 --> 00:05:25.595 to people who are, people who are interested in the status 86 00:05:25.595 --> 00:05:28.335 quo, who are selfishly self orientated, 87 00:05:29.370 --> 00:05:33.210 or who are trying to, operate in a command and 88 00:05:33.210 --> 00:05:36.965 control structure. That's not how reality works. We operate 89 00:05:37.745 --> 00:05:41.444 in complex systems against wicked problems, 90 00:05:42.465 --> 00:05:46.040 and wicked problems require you to 91 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:49.800 understand that the first solution will probably fail, and 92 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:52.620 you've got to gather data. Stakeholders 93 00:05:53.400 --> 00:05:57.135 differ. The rules change as you play, and there is no 94 00:05:57.135 --> 00:06:00.815 perfect answer, only imperfect options. And so 95 00:06:00.815 --> 00:06:02.595 that's the world that I play in. 96 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:08.040 Brilliant. I mean, there's a there's a couple of lovely quotes in there, and I 97 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:11.640 think let go of the horses. I think that's that's brilliant. We 98 00:06:11.640 --> 00:06:14.925 gotta we gotta analyze the real 99 00:06:15.225 --> 00:06:19.065 history behind some of the ways we do things, and you're you're 100 00:06:19.065 --> 00:06:22.525 so right. I I see so many examples of the commander control mentality. 101 00:06:23.260 --> 00:06:26.880 If I can't see you, I can't trust you. That the whole 102 00:06:27.180 --> 00:06:30.320 struggle that people have working flexibly, agilely, 103 00:06:30.700 --> 00:06:34.365 remotely really breaks down that command and control 104 00:06:34.365 --> 00:06:37.965 because many of our leaders have been trained or they've 105 00:06:37.965 --> 00:06:41.730 evolved in this controlled way, haven't they? And 106 00:06:41.730 --> 00:06:45.110 they wanna see the people. They wanna manage the people. 107 00:06:45.570 --> 00:06:49.385 They haven't learned to evolve their style so that 108 00:06:49.385 --> 00:06:52.125 they can empower the people that are working for them. 109 00:06:53.305 --> 00:06:56.825 And that's key. In order to earn trust, you have to give 110 00:06:56.825 --> 00:07:00.330 trust. And in order to have 111 00:07:00.330 --> 00:07:04.010 control, you have to relinquish control. You hire great 112 00:07:04.010 --> 00:07:07.705 people. I mean, Steve jobs is, famously quoted, for what's you 113 00:07:07.705 --> 00:07:10.745 know, saying something along the lines of what's the point of hiring brilliant people if 114 00:07:10.745 --> 00:07:14.510 you're gonna try and stop them from being brilliant, by controlling them? 115 00:07:15.070 --> 00:07:18.830 You need to create an environment where they can thrive. And 116 00:07:18.830 --> 00:07:22.670 I see this, I mean, diversity is a topic that 117 00:07:22.670 --> 00:07:25.475 most organizations pay lip service to, 118 00:07:26.335 --> 00:07:30.095 because they say we're an equal opportunities employer, and they 119 00:07:30.095 --> 00:07:33.294 put a tick in the box. And they hire for difference, and they fire for 120 00:07:33.294 --> 00:07:36.990 not fitting in. They make it impossible for people 121 00:07:36.990 --> 00:07:40.750 of difference, to fit in. We're all freaks. We're 122 00:07:40.750 --> 00:07:44.315 all different. We're all broken. And what we need to do is 123 00:07:44.315 --> 00:07:48.075 find people whose imperfections fit neatly with our 124 00:07:48.075 --> 00:07:51.610 imperfections so that we can become better. And there 125 00:07:51.690 --> 00:07:55.389 there's a wonderful experiment of a picture of a tiger in the grass. 126 00:07:55.849 --> 00:07:59.210 And most people will say that they see the 127 00:07:59.210 --> 00:08:02.075 tiger, or if they're more from the Oriental, 128 00:08:03.895 --> 00:08:07.575 environment, they'll talk about the jungle, with a 129 00:08:07.575 --> 00:08:10.690 tiger. But unless you get both 130 00:08:11.310 --> 00:08:15.150 and you get to see the whole perspective, then 131 00:08:15.150 --> 00:08:17.970 you miss out. And so you end up being very blinkered. 132 00:08:18.735 --> 00:08:22.515 And, that means that you, diminish your creativity 133 00:08:23.215 --> 00:08:27.055 in tackling difficult problems. At the moment, I'm on a 134 00:08:27.055 --> 00:08:30.890 mission. I have 5 big, great big, hairy 135 00:08:30.890 --> 00:08:34.730 assed audacious goals. 1 is to take 8 companies to a 136 00:08:34.730 --> 00:08:38.315 $1, 000, 000, 000 profitable revenue without the wheels and 137 00:08:38.315 --> 00:08:41.834 wings coming off with customers for life and to become 138 00:08:41.834 --> 00:08:45.595 destination employers. So people are queuing up because they 139 00:08:45.595 --> 00:08:49.170 love to come to work here. The second is 140 00:08:49.170 --> 00:08:52.550 to, rip the legs out from the entire marketing 141 00:08:52.850 --> 00:08:55.990 and advertising industry, which is a monstrous con. 142 00:08:56.754 --> 00:09:00.595 There are 4.3 quadrillion, digital adverts served 143 00:09:00.595 --> 00:09:04.035 up every year that get 1 or 0 clicks, and Google and 144 00:09:04.035 --> 00:09:07.810 Facebook make $265, 000, 000, 000 on the gullibility 145 00:09:08.269 --> 00:09:11.870 and idiocy of their, their customers. The venture 146 00:09:11.870 --> 00:09:15.435 capital and private equity market is utterly broken and corrupt, and it's 147 00:09:15.435 --> 00:09:19.195 creating a bubble, within technology where people are 148 00:09:19.195 --> 00:09:22.940 fixated on revenue growth, new logo acquisition, and 149 00:09:22.940 --> 00:09:26.459 a fictional pipeline because that allows them to fiddle, their 150 00:09:26.459 --> 00:09:29.920 notional value instead of creating strong fundamentally, 151 00:09:31.005 --> 00:09:34.385 well built businesses with people who love coming to work, 152 00:09:34.685 --> 00:09:38.464 give massive discretionary effort that are led by fantastic 153 00:09:38.605 --> 00:09:41.940 leaders who get twice as much out of, 154 00:09:42.260 --> 00:09:45.700 their employees through discretionary effort and giving them 155 00:09:45.700 --> 00:09:49.115 trust than people who try and command and control who get half as 156 00:09:49.115 --> 00:09:51.855 much as they possibly could. So there's a 400%, 157 00:09:52.955 --> 00:09:56.740 differential. The 4th is making sales a force for 158 00:09:56.740 --> 00:10:00.580 good. There were 2 studies that came out at the end of 2020. 1 from 159 00:10:00.580 --> 00:10:04.105 Gartner that said 33% of business to business 160 00:10:04.105 --> 00:10:07.725 buyers want a 100% seller free buying experience, 161 00:10:08.105 --> 00:10:11.290 and that's a damning indictment of our industry or our 162 00:10:11.529 --> 00:10:15.209 profession. And another study 163 00:10:15.209 --> 00:10:18.810 from LinkedIn that said 67% of buyers 164 00:10:18.810 --> 00:10:22.475 consider sales and salespeople to be morally bankrupt. And I can't 165 00:10:22.475 --> 00:10:25.375 disagree. I'm amazed it's only it's only 67%, 166 00:10:26.395 --> 00:10:29.930 because the values, and the behavior, 167 00:10:30.870 --> 00:10:34.569 that, permeate from investors through leadership, 168 00:10:34.629 --> 00:10:38.265 through management, through to salespeople that then put the 169 00:10:38.265 --> 00:10:41.785 customer at the end of a long chain of, abuse and make them a 170 00:10:41.785 --> 00:10:45.404 forgotten afterthought, make that inevitable. 171 00:10:45.850 --> 00:10:49.070 And then the 5th is to look at the sales training environment, 172 00:10:50.170 --> 00:10:53.565 and work out why that isn't working and fix it 173 00:10:53.885 --> 00:10:57.565 because people should really want to learn. They 174 00:10:57.565 --> 00:11:01.245 should want to get better. Instead you 175 00:11:01.245 --> 00:11:04.750 have 3 groups of people. You've got a tiny fraction who want to 176 00:11:04.750 --> 00:11:08.450 learn. You've got a bunch who are entitled and they expect, 177 00:11:09.274 --> 00:11:13.035 their company to serve them up training. And then you have 178 00:11:13.035 --> 00:11:16.770 most others who just wanna be left alone and to get 179 00:11:16.770 --> 00:11:20.370 on with it and survive on their basic salary, and they may take home 180 00:11:20.370 --> 00:11:24.055 commissions 4 or 8 months in the year. And all of 181 00:11:24.055 --> 00:11:27.735 that is broken. Now when you tie them all together and you look at the 182 00:11:27.735 --> 00:11:31.490 problems with, culture, investors, 183 00:11:32.029 --> 00:11:35.630 compensation, measurement, recruitment, and hiring 184 00:11:35.630 --> 00:11:39.069 onboarding training, their perception of the 185 00:11:39.069 --> 00:11:42.445 customer, the customer cannot possibly feel 186 00:11:42.445 --> 00:11:46.205 safe. And so the central theme around 187 00:11:46.205 --> 00:11:49.760 all of this is creating buyer safety. I 188 00:11:49.760 --> 00:11:53.440 fundamentally believe every buyer deserves to be safe whenever they 189 00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:57.060 are dealing with a salesperson or a vendor organization. 190 00:11:57.815 --> 00:12:01.655 And 99 times out of a 100, I believe that they cannot 191 00:12:01.655 --> 00:12:04.715 feel safe, which is why you create this adversarial 192 00:12:05.015 --> 00:12:08.730 relationship between vendor empire. And that doesn't serve 193 00:12:08.730 --> 00:12:12.430 anyone. And so I'm looking at all of these things 194 00:12:13.050 --> 00:12:16.505 as a complex system. And in the same way that if you 195 00:12:16.505 --> 00:12:20.345 take a digital, an SLR camera, you got 196 00:12:20.345 --> 00:12:24.080 film speed, the ISO number, You got the aperture, and you got the 197 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:27.840 shutter speed. If you change any 1 of those without adjusting 198 00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:31.220 at least 1 of the other 2, then the picture gets distorted. 199 00:12:31.845 --> 00:12:35.204 Now companies are way more sophisticated than 200 00:12:35.204 --> 00:12:38.185 that. You've got all these different moving parts, 201 00:12:39.580 --> 00:12:42.960 working often against 1 another 202 00:12:43.500 --> 00:12:46.640 because you've got a culture that is command and control, 203 00:12:47.755 --> 00:12:51.535 encourages internal competition, and that drives 204 00:12:51.595 --> 00:12:55.180 blame, excuses, avoidance behavior, and 205 00:12:55.180 --> 00:12:59.020 everyone playing cover your ass. And none of that is 206 00:12:59.020 --> 00:13:02.780 good for anybody. All it does, it serves a tiny handful, 207 00:13:02.780 --> 00:13:06.475 I lie, a tiny handful of people, who benefit from 208 00:13:06.475 --> 00:13:10.235 the status quo. And my view is that the 209 00:13:10.235 --> 00:13:12.495 status quo needs to be rocked. 210 00:13:14.360 --> 00:13:17.959 I agree completely. And I think when you look at I 211 00:13:17.959 --> 00:13:21.555 mean, picking up on something you just said there, the the concept, this black 212 00:13:21.555 --> 00:13:25.235 box thinking that the Matthew Syed, book and quote 213 00:13:25.235 --> 00:13:29.075 that where you empower your people. You you you 214 00:13:29.075 --> 00:13:32.910 put the decision making closer to the point of 215 00:13:32.910 --> 00:13:36.509 contact rather than having to refer back. You get better outcomes as the 216 00:13:36.509 --> 00:13:39.925 airlines found. And as we still see the 217 00:13:39.925 --> 00:13:43.685 challenge in organizations such as the NHS, where they have this very 218 00:13:43.685 --> 00:13:47.399 much command and control structure, Everyone is ass covering. Everyone's 219 00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:51.240 worried about litigation. Everyone's worried about making mistakes. Nobody's prepared to 220 00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:54.779 be open. Okay. I'm generalizing their apology to anyone from the NHS. 221 00:13:54.920 --> 00:13:58.665 Let's feel us that way. But from an outsider's perspective, we we do end up 222 00:13:58.665 --> 00:13:59.885 couching a lot of this 223 00:14:02.345 --> 00:14:05.880 based in in the protection of of 224 00:14:05.880 --> 00:14:09.720 stopping people failing, if you like. Whereas and I think you you I picked 225 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:13.180 up what you said earlier. It's about failing quickly, learning. Okay. 226 00:14:13.695 --> 00:14:17.135 If you've got your if you've got your fingers deep into someone's brain, you don't 227 00:14:17.135 --> 00:14:20.829 want to fail quickly there. But if you're doing other tasks, you've got to 228 00:14:20.829 --> 00:14:24.589 learn and and I've had this discussion with people in the past where I 229 00:14:24.589 --> 00:14:27.975 said we've got to fail quickly. And and all these 230 00:14:27.975 --> 00:14:31.575 NLP practitioners start giving me all this rubbish about. It's not about failing. It's about 231 00:14:31.575 --> 00:14:35.335 learning. I said, no. You learn through failure. You learn through making 232 00:14:35.335 --> 00:14:38.370 mistakes. You learn through Absolutely. Trying. And 233 00:14:40.189 --> 00:14:43.149 we could you can change the language, you can put all this soft stuff in 234 00:14:43.149 --> 00:14:46.509 there. No one's no one's a loser. Everyone's a winner in their own 235 00:14:46.509 --> 00:14:49.725 right. But really, what you got to do is you got to learn that you 236 00:14:49.725 --> 00:14:53.404 don't always succeed, and learn how to deal with that. And learn from 237 00:14:53.404 --> 00:14:56.200 that. I think what's happened 238 00:14:57.300 --> 00:15:00.660 is we've become afraid, to have 239 00:15:00.660 --> 00:15:04.315 conflict. And 240 00:15:04.315 --> 00:15:07.615 we're, we're afraid of all conflict. Whereas constructive 241 00:15:07.835 --> 00:15:11.610 conflict is fantastically useful. We 242 00:15:11.610 --> 00:15:15.070 tread on eggshells. I've done a series of conversations, 243 00:15:16.090 --> 00:15:19.845 around, d and I. And what's 244 00:15:19.905 --> 00:15:23.585 really interested me is when you have a grown up conversation with people who 245 00:15:23.585 --> 00:15:27.360 are wildly different, I I've spoken to you. I've 246 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:30.340 spoken to Ricky Arundel. I've, had, 247 00:15:31.520 --> 00:15:34.900 Dave McQueen on. I've had Rod Jefferson on, 248 00:15:35.475 --> 00:15:38.774 and, you know, a variety of people who 249 00:15:39.475 --> 00:15:43.080 have a very different perspective to me. What I'm looking 250 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:46.600 for is the common ground. And this is where I 251 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:49.960 think people misunderstand the concept of win 252 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:52.925 win. Win win is difficult 253 00:15:53.625 --> 00:15:56.925 because it's about finding a win for everybody 254 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:02.320 without compromise. And the problem is that win win is 255 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:06.160 often about capitulation. We give stuff away in the hope 256 00:16:06.160 --> 00:16:09.875 that they may give us the business or whatever. It's 257 00:16:09.875 --> 00:16:13.635 bloody hard work. Leadership management are 258 00:16:13.635 --> 00:16:17.160 bloody hard work. They require you, to put 259 00:16:17.160 --> 00:16:20.760 yourself in harm's way, to be vulnerable. And the 260 00:16:20.760 --> 00:16:24.600 root cause the the root origin of the word vulnerable comes from 261 00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:28.205 the Latin will never able to. And it means to put yourself in 262 00:16:28.205 --> 00:16:32.045 a position where you may get wounded or hurt and do it anyway. 263 00:16:32.045 --> 00:16:35.410 It's an act of courage. It's also 264 00:16:35.550 --> 00:16:39.310 requires you to come with an open mind. And this is where 265 00:16:39.310 --> 00:16:42.905 there is a massive difference between the majority who 266 00:16:42.905 --> 00:16:46.525 operate playing a finite game, where the objective 267 00:16:46.585 --> 00:16:50.210 is to get to the end of the game, having won 268 00:16:50.210 --> 00:16:53.890 or not lost. And that's taking a bigger piece of a 269 00:16:53.890 --> 00:16:57.490 shrinking pie. And I see this all the time and it drives 270 00:16:57.490 --> 00:17:01.285 scarcity, mindset. It's 271 00:17:01.285 --> 00:17:05.045 very self, selfish. It means that 272 00:17:05.045 --> 00:17:08.480 you become very protective. You're a detractor. You're cynical. 273 00:17:08.859 --> 00:17:12.380 You snipe. You're focused on keeping what you've 274 00:17:12.380 --> 00:17:15.440 got. It creates mistrust. 275 00:17:16.575 --> 00:17:20.175 Whereas an infinite game player, their objective is to keep the 276 00:17:20.175 --> 00:17:23.935 game going and make the pie bigger. So everyone can 277 00:17:23.935 --> 00:17:27.690 have a bigger slice. It means that you need to learn how 278 00:17:27.690 --> 00:17:31.390 to accept others for who they are without judgment. 279 00:17:32.965 --> 00:17:36.585 It means that you have to, embrace the difference. 280 00:17:38.005 --> 00:17:41.640 I did, a really interesting interview with a lady called 281 00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:45.480 Cora John, Warren, who, heads up 282 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:49.274 the sales team for, a company called Rare Recruitment, 283 00:17:49.274 --> 00:17:52.794 and they place black candidates in law 284 00:17:52.794 --> 00:17:56.429 firms, hedge funds, accountancy firms, and 285 00:17:56.429 --> 00:17:59.889 management consultancies. And the frustration 286 00:18:01.309 --> 00:18:05.070 of placing these brilliant minds in places where they cannot 287 00:18:05.070 --> 00:18:08.865 fit in, and they, they end up leaving. So you've 288 00:18:08.865 --> 00:18:12.245 spent a fortune ticking a box being woke. 289 00:18:13.740 --> 00:18:17.340 Diversity is not about, ticking a 290 00:18:17.340 --> 00:18:20.799 box. Diversity is about pooling incredible talent 291 00:18:21.340 --> 00:18:24.835 and having different perspectives, different races, 292 00:18:25.055 --> 00:18:28.595 genders, sexual orientations, different religions, 293 00:18:28.815 --> 00:18:32.520 politics, socioeconomic backgrounds so that you can 294 00:18:32.520 --> 00:18:35.960 come up with a much better solution. And, my 295 00:18:35.960 --> 00:18:39.100 experience has been fueled over the last 2 years, 296 00:18:40.095 --> 00:18:43.635 by running my own podcast. I think we're up to a episode 330. 297 00:18:44.575 --> 00:18:47.875 I've had access to 4 and a half 1000 years 298 00:18:48.500 --> 00:18:51.800 of collective experience on that podcast. Now 299 00:18:52.500 --> 00:18:56.235 I cannot even begin to tell you how that 300 00:18:56.235 --> 00:18:59.774 has shifted my ability to conceive of new solutions. 301 00:19:00.235 --> 00:19:03.674 That 2 years ago, when I first started it, there wasn't a hope in 302 00:19:03.674 --> 00:19:07.360 hell. I I knock out 2 to 3 episodes a week because it's 303 00:19:07.360 --> 00:19:11.120 become an addiction. You know, the the learning that I 304 00:19:11.120 --> 00:19:14.855 get and the fact that my thinking has been challenged so consistently, 305 00:19:15.875 --> 00:19:19.715 and we fight and we disagree, who cares? I don't mind fighting. 306 00:19:19.715 --> 00:19:23.460 I don't mind being wrong. You've got to leave your ego at the door 307 00:19:23.460 --> 00:19:26.440 and you've got to stop your attachment. 1 of my mentors, 308 00:19:27.059 --> 00:19:30.805 Mark Galston, who wrote what the, a book that if you're part of 309 00:19:30.805 --> 00:19:34.585 the species, you have to read it. It's called just listen 310 00:19:34.805 --> 00:19:38.405 by Mark Galston. And he's become a mentor of mine, a good 311 00:19:38.405 --> 00:19:42.210 friend. And he's come up with a wonderful phrase that he taught me, which 312 00:19:42.210 --> 00:19:45.809 was let go or be dragged. The 313 00:19:45.809 --> 00:19:49.625 Buddha said that attachment is the root to all 314 00:19:49.625 --> 00:19:53.085 misery. You need to let go of your attachment. 315 00:19:53.625 --> 00:19:57.330 If you don't, then it will end up grinding you 316 00:19:57.330 --> 00:20:00.930 down. You will start judging others. There 317 00:20:00.930 --> 00:20:04.630 is a fabulous model that describes every broken, dysfunctional, 318 00:20:04.995 --> 00:20:08.675 screwed up relationship you can or will ever have on 3 points of a 319 00:20:08.675 --> 00:20:12.275 triangle. It's called the drama triangle. And if you imagine an 320 00:20:12.275 --> 00:20:15.860 equilateral triangle on its sharp point, and at the 321 00:20:15.860 --> 00:20:19.620 bottom, you have the victim voice, top left, the 322 00:20:19.620 --> 00:20:23.080 persecutor, and top right, the, the rescuer. 323 00:20:24.465 --> 00:20:28.005 The victim's voice sounds like it's so unfair. 324 00:20:28.304 --> 00:20:31.850 Why me? It's always happens. And their favorite byline 325 00:20:31.910 --> 00:20:34.730 is save me, help me. 326 00:20:35.430 --> 00:20:39.030 Okay. The persecutor comes with a jabby index 327 00:20:39.030 --> 00:20:42.765 phone, pronoun, sorry. Jabby index finger and the pronoun 328 00:20:42.765 --> 00:20:46.385 you in capital letters, shone up in lights with 329 00:20:46.385 --> 00:20:50.120 Joanne exclamation mark at the end. You piece of shit. 330 00:20:50.180 --> 00:20:54.020 You always. You never. You're such a. And it diminishes you 331 00:20:54.020 --> 00:20:57.565 at an identity level who you are. And the most 332 00:20:57.565 --> 00:21:00.865 divisive, interestingly enough, is the rescuer. 333 00:21:01.005 --> 00:21:03.825 Rescuing is helping without boundaries or permission. 334 00:21:04.890 --> 00:21:08.570 Rescuers tend to end up as micromanagers. They suffer from upward 335 00:21:08.570 --> 00:21:11.950 delegation and create learned helplessness. Persecutors 336 00:21:12.965 --> 00:21:16.184 drive out any form of entrepreneurialism, free thinking. 337 00:21:17.045 --> 00:21:20.725 They, they eliminate risk taking because people don't put their head above the 338 00:21:20.725 --> 00:21:24.360 parapet and victims love a pity party. 339 00:21:25.300 --> 00:21:28.680 There's nothing they enjoy more than, sharing their wounds, 340 00:21:29.795 --> 00:21:33.015 and comparing how bad their wounds are. Rescuers 341 00:21:33.315 --> 00:21:37.030 also tend to be molly coddling and permissive and ego 342 00:21:37.250 --> 00:21:41.010 thrives on drama. So anytime you hear anyone take 343 00:21:41.010 --> 00:21:44.710 any 1 of those 3 positions, you've now got attachment 344 00:21:44.850 --> 00:21:48.515 through the ego. Now my favorite philosopher, Bruce 345 00:21:48.515 --> 00:21:52.355 Lee, was asked what's the best way to avoid a punch. And he said, be 346 00:21:52.355 --> 00:21:56.030 somewhere else. It's bloody awesome advice. You 347 00:21:56.030 --> 00:21:58.850 only have to move your head to the side that's somewhere else, 348 00:21:59.470 --> 00:22:02.850 but be somewhere else. And that is the winner's triangle. 349 00:22:03.304 --> 00:22:07.144 So instead of being a victim, you're vulnerable. Instead 350 00:22:07.144 --> 00:22:10.980 of being a persecutor, you're assertive. And instead of 351 00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:14.340 being a, a rescuer, 352 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:18.019 you're nurturing an empathic. Now this triangle 353 00:22:18.924 --> 00:22:22.544 is on its flat base, so it's very stable. 354 00:22:22.764 --> 00:22:25.985 The drama triangle is on its point, so it's very unstable. 355 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:30.559 And in fact what tends to happen in the drama triangle is 356 00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:34.100 people just swap positions. It's so unfair. 357 00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:37.785 You always do this. You're always picking on me. You 358 00:22:37.785 --> 00:22:41.305 don't understand. I'm doing my best. Yeah. And 359 00:22:41.305 --> 00:22:45.010 people, go around it. In fact, I'm not very proud of 360 00:22:45.010 --> 00:22:48.630 this. I have to be honest, but it was a good object lesson. I remember 361 00:22:48.690 --> 00:22:51.835 having a fight with my wife without involving her. So, 362 00:22:53.495 --> 00:22:57.015 1 Friday, she said to me, I'm gonna decorate the living room 363 00:22:57.015 --> 00:23:00.810 tomorrow. And so I in my family, DIY stands 364 00:23:00.810 --> 00:23:04.590 for don't involve yourself. So, I've 365 00:23:04.810 --> 00:23:08.455 very smartly gave her a kiss, went to sleep. Now 11:36 366 00:23:09.075 --> 00:23:12.534 the following day, having watched, the cookery 367 00:23:12.595 --> 00:23:16.274 programs, I thought, Jo. I wonder if she wants help. So I went 368 00:23:16.274 --> 00:23:20.040 downstairs and I said, sweetheart, do you want help? 369 00:23:20.260 --> 00:23:23.940 And she said, only if you want to. Now in my 370 00:23:23.940 --> 00:23:27.505 world, only if you want to meant get your 371 00:23:27.505 --> 00:23:31.265 bucket and brushes and pull your weight. So I went to the garage, I 372 00:23:31.265 --> 00:23:34.485 got my bucket and brushes and this cloud formed over my head, 373 00:23:34.860 --> 00:23:38.480 Lightning, thunder, hail, and, 374 00:23:39.420 --> 00:23:43.155 I can't believe she's roped me into bloody thing. I 375 00:23:43.155 --> 00:23:46.515 hate I think DIY had a long 376 00:23:46.515 --> 00:23:50.280 week. Anyway, went into the living room and started 377 00:23:50.360 --> 00:23:52.300 tearing off little bits of wallpaper. 378 00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:57.800 And after about 8 to 9 minutes, she just looked across and said, sweetheart, are 379 00:23:57.800 --> 00:24:01.434 you okay? You don't really seem fully engaged in this activity. 380 00:24:01.895 --> 00:24:05.735 And I said, well, you know, straight into victim, you know, I've 381 00:24:05.735 --> 00:24:09.290 had a hard week. And I said, well, you know, I, I know you had 382 00:24:09.290 --> 00:24:12.970 a hard week. I haven't seen you at all. And I 383 00:24:12.970 --> 00:24:16.685 thought it'd be nice to do something together. Now I managed to have 384 00:24:16.685 --> 00:24:20.285 an entire fight with my wife without her 385 00:24:20.285 --> 00:24:24.065 even being involved. That's how stupid we are as a species. 386 00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:27.940 So I look for that stuff. It's 387 00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:31.680 everywhere. You look at the things that we, we consider to 388 00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:35.425 be entertainment, dramas, soap operas, 389 00:24:35.645 --> 00:24:39.485 reality TV, the news. The news is all about 390 00:24:39.485 --> 00:24:43.120 watching other people's misery. So we can say, thank God that's not me or 391 00:24:43.120 --> 00:24:46.720 mine. That is very 392 00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:50.420 true. And I've had conversation with journalists and publishers and editors, 393 00:24:51.465 --> 00:24:55.305 And there has to be a human tragedy in 394 00:24:55.305 --> 00:24:58.800 there somewhere for it to be newsworthy. Person gets up in the 395 00:24:58.800 --> 00:25:02.640 morning, has a great day, comes home, has dinner, goes to bed 396 00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:06.400 is not newsworthy, which is the majority of what we do. People want to be 397 00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:09.525 taken out of that mundane reality 398 00:25:10.065 --> 00:25:13.525 and shocked and all into something else on there. And that's what sells. 399 00:25:14.705 --> 00:25:17.445 There there's a, theory in 400 00:25:18.130 --> 00:25:21.970 transactional analysis called okay. Not okay. And 401 00:25:21.970 --> 00:25:25.775