Joanne Lockwood: Hello everyone, my name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the inclusion bites podcast.
Joanne Lockwood: In this series I have interviewed a number of amazing people has simply had a conversation about the subject of inclusion belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive.
Joanne Lockwood: So let's join me in the future there, please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk that's s double e change happen dot co dot uk.
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Joanne Lockwood: Today is episode 47 with the title escaping the ECHO Chamber dni lingo.
Joanne Lockwood: The absolute honor and privilege to be joined by McCall REP describes itself, as someone who is challenging the status quo and helping leaders and colleagues redesign workplaces so works for everyone.
Joanne Lockwood: But I asked Greg to describe your superpower, he said, his his his humor and he would like to think he has an ability to make people smile laugh and relax Hello Greg welcome to the show.
Greg McCaw: An absolute pleasure to be here, Jo I guess this podcast will tell whether I have the ability to make people laugh, although that's not what i'm here for today but we'll see.
Joanne Lockwood: But drastic so we're talking just before we came live around so far unexpected so tell me about the ECHO chamber of deal I lingo and.
Joanne Lockwood: And how that impacts.
Greg McCaw: I am, so I think something that i've really noticed in this profession is that we reuse the cm lingo and terminology that am it's.
Greg McCaw: In diversity and inclusion that we use in business Bingo and it's making its way into that hall of fame.
Greg McCaw: And I think things like bringing your authentic self to work is one that we said these well meaning statements, all the time job, but very rarely do we really unpack.
Greg McCaw: What it really takes to create an environment in which somebody can be themselves and.
Greg McCaw: When we're saying things like ally ship or bring your authentic self to work.
Greg McCaw: or anything from this space at D and I, we need to remember, in the majority of the conversations were having we're not chatting to D and I experts.
Greg McCaw: So it's so important that we unpack what those statements actually mean.
Greg McCaw: And what it means for the person that you're speaking to and how that person that you're speaking to can actually go about helping others.
Greg McCaw: Be their authentic selves or high they might be an ally, or what the term intersection holiday actually means we wanted, and we know it's important but what does it actually mean.
Greg McCaw: And so I think we are running the risk in the space of D and I and getting caught up too much in the lingo and not spending enough time on packing what those words really mean for people.
Joanne Lockwood: hmm I agree, I i've heard people now, I think the new bus by the psychological safety, which is an evolution of bring your whole self to work.
Joanne Lockwood: And if you look at the the merriam Webster box that an Oxford English dictionary definitions of those phrases then.
Joanne Lockwood: it's it's it's a great place to be you know you can you don't have to look over your shoulder, you have to watch your language, and you know that people around you aren't going to cause micro aggressions etc, etc, so it's an evolution probably more meaningful because.
Joanne Lockwood: What is bringing your whole self to work, I mean we don't know over share do we.
Greg McCaw: know, am a no not at all, and I think psychological safety as another it's a perfect example of another word that's our statement sorry that's been continually overused and.
Greg McCaw: add a really interesting conversation somebody at work That said, we need to start measuring psychological safety at work and a responsible, we already do.
Greg McCaw: In many of the different questions that we asked in our engagement surveys, but let's maybe just bring together those different questions around whether somebody feels heard.
Greg McCaw: Whether they have high levels of trust within the team that they're in and whether they feel that they can challenge the views and perspectives of leaders in an organization all of those things that contribute to psychological cfd.
Greg McCaw: Are there you'd never and I guess, this is, you know, going back to the point of falling into the trap of DNA lingo you'd never asked the question and and engagement survey, do you feel psychologically safe.
Greg McCaw: Because for the majority of people they've read that and said that I don't actually really know what that means, but what you do instead is you unpack it and a multitude of different questions to really measuring whether cfd exists within your organization.
Joanne Lockwood: It also means different things to people, I mean i'm we're both part of the LGBT Q plus X, Y zed community.
Joanne Lockwood: it's broader spectrum and it means something different to me than it does to you or maybe someone who is a young black woman or someone who has autism or whatever it means different things to different people so.
Joanne Lockwood: What are we really trying to say when we say it what's the motivation behind the state would be like.
Greg McCaw: yeah and that's a good point and not realize and us all a sermon a will, and what we currently do too much i'm assuming that we all share the same experience at work.
Greg McCaw: And unnatural, we have to accept that there is not one big homogenous shared experience of the workplace.
Greg McCaw: And that different diversity groups come to work and have different needs and have different experiences.
Greg McCaw: of work, and indeed feels different barriers to opportunity or different obstacles to overcome, and I think we can set a.
Greg McCaw: tall ambitions and broad ambitions around bring your whole authentic self to work and creating such a psychological safety, but until we really begin to.
Greg McCaw: Think about high different facets of diversity experience our world of work and begin to glean and gather feedback from them and high they.
Greg McCaw: Experience a our practices or policies how our everyday decisions impact those different diversity groups.
Greg McCaw: Then it's really hard to create or make that ambition of psych psychological cfd it's really hard to create that overall ambition of bringing your most authentic self to work.
Greg McCaw: If we don't on packet and delve into the detail of what actions need to happen at a more granular level for that ambition to actually be the alliance, because it can't be realized in.
Greg McCaw: grand gestures cabinets, you can do a massive fanfare and a company am all hands and said that we want everybody to bring during a.
Greg McCaw: Most authentic selves to work and everybody leave your big grand town hall and go back to their desk but their everyday experiences don't stack up to that.
Greg McCaw: bashan a matter where we've just got to be careful when we're making these statements we've got to ask ourselves the questions will our actions, help us realize these ambitions, because they're important things, but our actions need to.
Greg McCaw: to connect back to those statements and the tactics, we deploy need to connect back to those statements.
Joanne Lockwood: And hmm and also is is this phraseology almost excluding a large chunk of the workforce, because I mean I spent a good chunk of my life.
Joanne Lockwood: In the straight white male perceived category and I didn't have any see problem in bringing all of me to work, I was just me every day.
Joanne Lockwood: So when we focus on on this bring your whole self to work a psychological safety does it really resonate with everybody some people do i'm just me every day.
Greg McCaw: Welcome completely Jo and that's that's such a good point because.
Greg McCaw: What we don't want to do in the work of diversity, equity and inclusion is alienates a group of people from the conversation.
Greg McCaw: and especially alienated those that whole real privilege and power and our organizations and can be real drivers of change.
Greg McCaw: So it's important for me, but wife's there's some very negative statements out there, like.
Greg McCaw: A steel and mail I generally find though that type of rhetoric incredibly unhelpful for driving this work forward in a positive direction and on the example that you've just given the thing that I always say to people is that you know how the world of work, works for you.
Greg McCaw: And you know what barriers or obstacles you've had to overcome what we're asking you to do in this work is to consider that not everybody has the same experience at work.
Greg McCaw: And to learn how those experiences might vary and how you as a straight white meal might be able to leverage your privilege and your power to am.
Greg McCaw: A drive change, and those are the conversations that I have with some of our leaders in.
Greg McCaw: Our business, they are an important part of the conversation I remind them of that that I need them to be part of it and and that what we can't do.
Greg McCaw: A is shut them off from the conversation because waste a cut remember the rest of the San Jo steel mill and whatever it is, but and.
Greg McCaw: White white that might come from a really emotionally charged plates and a place of like I want to see change, and I want to see a better organization.
Greg McCaw: What you do by shutting those groups of people off from the conversation is move the burden of responsibility back to underrepresented groups to drive the change.
Greg McCaw: And, and that inadvertently that passion, you have to go well, not straight white male has nothing to do with the conversation.
Greg McCaw: And you're pushing the burden of responsibility back onto the people that really need to see the change instead of engaging with those powerful.
Greg McCaw: People in your organization and helping unlock something and then that helps them realize a a higher that drives.
Greg McCaw: The change and am Nick one thing I was really inspired by by one of our chief executives a when they got promoted into a CEO role was is that they rang me and said that.
Greg McCaw: Am listen Greg I know that this work might not apply to me and but I tell you what I am going to do an Italian what I do you have as a chief executive I have partner.
Greg McCaw: In this role and i'm going to use that power as a force for good and i've never felt so inspired by a leader in a business acknowledging the power and the privilege that their holes.
Greg McCaw: And I would hope that the reason that got there is because the level of engagement and energy that we put into making sure we don't shut people off from these conversations.
Joanne Lockwood: yeah I agree to.
Joanne Lockwood: Say that you know we.
Joanne Lockwood: We have to, we have to get people with power and privilege to open the door, and if we if we go armed with stones and rocks and.
Joanne Lockwood: and aggression and which I know when we are in a minority characters that you feel this kind of pent up frustration, a lot.
Joanne Lockwood: If you don't engage with people and beverage, the first thing that happens is they often slam the door shut pull the drawbridge up.
Joanne Lockwood: stand on the ramparts fair inbox on new boiling oil it's fun to repel the board, because the intent on protecting their costs are such.
Joanne Lockwood: But that they feel under attack and it's kind of a way of how to be engaged with people who can make change and deliver change from their position of power without making them feel threatened that's the real challenge that I see.
Greg McCaw: And it and it is a challenge, when so much of our work is geared around placing the burden and responsibility on T er geez or networks or minority groups.
Greg McCaw: And underrepresented folk and we need to face up to the reality Jo that we cannot fix this problem by task in a smaller group small group of volunteers to drive change.
Greg McCaw: That will never work will never see the change that we need to see.
Greg McCaw: and wives they don't want to discredit to the work of Dr g's and businesses that plan incredibly important role and that can be catalysts for change, but they need to be in poverty and given power.
Greg McCaw: AMA and the right way to drive that change, but if we assume that that's the only vehicle for change your most effective path to change will fail.
Greg McCaw: On will not see the change that we need to see and so it's important to spend time with leaders and to not take some of the emotional sentiment that I fade of when I met a.
Greg McCaw: And i've participated in many protests or marches i'd side of work that I don't take that into the meetings that I have with leaders.
Greg McCaw: Like I don't call them with the charge that I have or that emotion that I have in that moment and bring it into a conversation with me with the CEO because immediately they're just going to go whoa.
Greg McCaw: This is too much to digest and you need to invest time and helping them think goodbye, what are the everyday actions decisions and behaviors of a senior leader at Director of Vice President or a CEO.
Greg McCaw: Where you should probably be thinking about diversity equity or inclusion and how can you consider it more when you make those decisions when you take those actions are in the behaviors that you display.
Greg McCaw: And that investment and that time investment of what you're helping them really understand what privileges hi they leverage there's.
Greg McCaw: To create a better workplace for others, is where I will and see change and that work takes time because.
Greg McCaw: We have to accept that change happens in the everyday actions of the individual, not in once and done training programs.
Greg McCaw: AMA when you do trend with leaders The other thing that I think it's also really important to think about.
Greg McCaw: Is that you might do this and me is and course in your directors might come off the back of it and go i've got it.
Greg McCaw: I know what I need to do you know to drive change, but the other thing we need to think about in our line of work is what behavioral niches are reinforcing mechanisms.
Greg McCaw: Are we going to play us in different parts of the employee life cycle, or the courses of that directors career to remind them.
Greg McCaw: about the learnings that that tech for my tree and and to embed it further and so like I commented on a post, the other week AMA where I talked about how the industry of D is lettered in once and done activity.
Greg McCaw: And and we're not thinking enough about high when we do work, how do we embed it on how do we measure the effectiveness of the programs of work we're delivering an organization.
Greg McCaw: and take more of an iterative approach Jo like when you do something it's okay to go the battery and, of course, that we run didn't drive change and it didn't work so let's not do that again.
Greg McCaw: And I think that's what we've got to accept that the that there's no end point and network, we have to be iterative in our approach.
Greg McCaw: And test and learn different test and learn different things from our our leaders there's no one size fits all solution to get your leaders, just to wake up tomorrow and am tech a completely new course.
Joanne Lockwood: agree and I talked about polarity so we can't get to the end, but what we can do is, we can tend towards a positive.
Joanne Lockwood: environment, so what we're looking for is came from the the negative of a neutral to the positive and that's that's our direction of travel.
Joanne Lockwood: And one day we're probably nudging into the diversity strand in a bit more next week come back to the inclusion, but we're going to try and do this, hand in hand and lockstep so that was the end up with.
Joanne Lockwood: Mitch mismatch or where we're not really including anybody and we're just pitch working people in three tokenism or making performative actions, just to satisfy.
Joanne Lockwood: How it looks in the organization, so I completely agree, but yet there's no magic bullet about polarities around making positive direction, so we got to be careful that, as you say.
Joanne Lockwood: When we're doing these training courses what what's our objective when we go into the training is it.
Joanne Lockwood: I hope it's about the journey it's around this is the beginning or, this is the next stage, the reinforcement.
Joanne Lockwood: And when we come out meet ups and my courses, but one thing I was at the end is what's next what you're going to do next, how you can take back to your whole back to the business.
Joanne Lockwood: and implement what we've talked about, because if it just stays in the room, then it's been a it's been a fun two hours, but it has actually changed anything hasn't.
Greg McCaw: No, not at all and I worried that our industry is getting caught up in PR over progress.
Greg McCaw: And and there's a lot of theater and D and I and there's a lot of great headline grabbing work that you can do.
Greg McCaw: But the reality is this is complex, cultural change, and it needs to be worked on and chipped away at and you need to have an iterative approach.
Greg McCaw: And i'm very passionate about a testing and learning as you go and recognizing your your successes but also really recognizing your failures and your programs to work.
Greg McCaw: On what hasn't worked and what hasn't driven change am and the point that you made a about what's the outcome, I am very passionate and talk to our DNA leads by business outcomes.
Greg McCaw: So that if you're starting a program of workout always ask the question what's the business i'd come that you hope to see it's a great idea, because often are not the things that we do in D, I will never be criticized as a bad idea.
Greg McCaw: And, but what I can do you hope to see what change, do you hope to bring about as a result of that program or mentoring scheme that you've chosen to do.
Greg McCaw: High will it make a difference to somebody in an organization, are you hoping to say that more people move through the talent pipeline into senior roles.
Greg McCaw: Are you hoping to create more safe spaces, or for people to regard that there are safer spaces for them to talk and an organization we've got to be very focused on the am.
Greg McCaw: I comes that we want to see underlining those it comes to our organizations biggest opportunities am.
Greg McCaw: On priorities, because they D and I industry has turned into a multi billion points industry, so you need to pick and choose your programs of work on your tactics carefully and actually.
Greg McCaw: latter backup clearly to the icons you want to see your the strategy that you've laid out for the business.
Joanne Lockwood: yeah we've worked together on a couple of projects and some training and some programs in the band.
Joanne Lockwood: And I know some of the the passionate work you're doing to make sure that what you're doing within your organization is joined up.
Joanne Lockwood: across the entire organization is not just a dni initiatives are hiring talent acquisition initiative marketing, but so often, I see this disconnect between corporate appetite for change the dni strategy, the playbook wave on a call it.
Joanne Lockwood: And then the implementation by the people on the ground so hiring managers hiring in our own image or or or not learning the still looking at to one degrees as delicate every universities are still looking at CVs and names.
Greg McCaw: yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yet you know these organizations that you know I know the directors, I know the people in the dni positions I know the people in the head of ta.
Joanne Lockwood: The hiring managers aren't reflecting the corporate policies had everybody's life changed to the point where it matters because it's getting getting lost somewhere in the ether isn't a message.
Greg McCaw: Yet completely Am I think when you lay out an ambition and my role globally is Am I cover quite a few countries and my role.
Greg McCaw: And our will globally was to lay out a shared ambition and some key pillars for us to get behind to drive change, but how they look.
Greg McCaw: And each of our countries will look completely different, so that they can realize their local opportunities and challenges.
Greg McCaw: And, but to operationalize the invention, one thing that was really important for me, was to not just launch this ambition and our brand which is everyone included.
Greg McCaw: that's the collateral in the brand of our dni strategy i'm not saying screen button lovely but how do you then operationalize that ambition and grow the understanding of what chins needs to take place.
Greg McCaw: And one thing that we are testing at the minute and am have made a commitment to run for the next two years is our dei learning series and labs.
Greg McCaw: which will specifically target our ehr amp D teams, so what we're saying is we're not launching this strategy and just dropping in a one off training session for you folks.
Greg McCaw: The training here to help us realize this long term ambition that we've led light and these three theaters that are broken up over the next five years, as we embark and heck each of these phases and approach the goals that we need to meet.
Greg McCaw: we'll create spaces in which we can learn together experiment together and talk about how we can fit this into some of those challenges.
Greg McCaw: Am so that learning series will commence in October, it will run for all of next year, and I have full intend to continue to run it and to help support our teams and.
Greg McCaw: You talk about the people on the ground, I think the forgotten people Jo every time and di or he hr.
Greg McCaw: Like it's fallen into human resources, because it feels like it's normal home I Max Okay, and where the United belongs and sexism have a conversation.
Greg McCaw: But what we need to remember is is is that HR can be the master of everything can be skilled and absolutely everything, so I can't a pet my time and energy into the three and a half thousand leaders we have across our business as.
Greg McCaw: A some of that work will happen at a local level, with some of the country leads, but I can put a serious time investment and to.
Greg McCaw: Closing the knowledge gap with our ehr amp D teams and we will invite to your point about example around talent acquisition.
Greg McCaw: will invite different people with different skills into the learning series as well, so in the new year we're one running one specifically around data and insights on how to become a powerful storyteller.
Greg McCaw: And the when you've got you polo SMEs and data off your HR is that, how do you turn it into something compelling a really strong narrative to drive change.
Greg McCaw: And we'll be inviting people from our analytics teams to come and participate in those am a learning labs they're the experts i'm not the expert at data and analytics those folks are so it's it's right that we empower them.
Greg McCaw: And to help drive some of the change in the organization so that's one thing I don't need one example of what we are doing to try and make sure that the big ambition appear is well understood across the organization.
Joanne Lockwood: I think so right that we often see D and I, as a spin off of HR or the people team and I coined an activity or they pee pee seems quite topical.
Joanne Lockwood: it's about positive people experiences and when I talk about people experience it's not just employee it's not just candidate its customer is stakeholder.
Joanne Lockwood: it's anybody that any person any people that touch your business and you want to have a positive people experience and inclusive experience of belonging, this.
Joanne Lockwood: that's what we create brand to create belonging and an allegiance to our marketing everything, and I think we too often just think of it, I i've seen organizations, focusing on.
Joanne Lockwood: A colleague colleague experience and they're forgetting the customer experience or the service user experience and then they look at each other go.
Joanne Lockwood: Well, if that was if that was a colleague colleague will be invoking the quality out, but when.
Joanne Lockwood: A customer we forget about that or we're so focused on the customer you forget about the colleague experience and the new you allow customers to almost.
Joanne Lockwood: Have a negative experience and your colleagues so yeah there's there's often is this mismatches man and the brand the whole culture and vibe from the top level board level, and I think so right that we need to have it in every directors report, in the same way risk.
Joanne Lockwood: Targets strategy we talked about this every day in the boardroom every direct has their own report.
Joanne Lockwood: dni this be woven through that as well, not as a separate people for the day and it could be, they could be the checks and balances that could be the knuckles what have you thought about the other coaching the mentors but not the responsibility.
Greg McCaw: To completely otherwise DNA teams risk taking everything under their wings effects when actually Our job is to.
Greg McCaw: redesign and rebuild current practices processes and policies, so your job isn't to take over from the rewards team and redesign and and for you to redesign the way of work it's for you to drive more positive outcomes through reward.
Greg McCaw: Through marketing through supply chain and and am an ideally the outcome that you would want to see that D and I is a natural enabler and a metric featured and strategies.
Greg McCaw: But I do think we have a long way to go in scaling and enabling people to present the information and a compelling way that we could so much DNA in our organizations, we are a.
Greg McCaw: A data rich and we just don't know how to pace that of data together to get a complete picture of somebody experience at work.
Greg McCaw: But we always look at it in isolation will present an exit interview report and then we'll present our sex monthly engagement survey.
Greg McCaw: And then we'll look at our pair decisions, and these are all looked at in separate pieces of information and data.
Greg McCaw: But what we really need to be doing is pulling that data together and joining up one complete experience of a colleague.
Greg McCaw: So that we can ask tougher and more uncomfortable questions around whether underrepresented people in our business have a different experience.
Greg McCaw: Whether they have a different view on opportunities, whether they're impacted differently on pair whether they say or provide us different feedback and our exit interviews.
Greg McCaw: And that's where there is one thing, but I think the other more and more probably more powerful catalyst of that is insight.
Greg McCaw: drive in the story around what that data tells us, because we can fill it backs up with the other all day long.
Greg McCaw: But if we're not shipping it in a meaningful way to drive change and throw some really uncomfortable questions towards our leaders around what the data is telling us then we're not using the data as a as a driving force for good.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes, that will lift experience and covering what's really happening not as often as you say, of data can tell you anything you wanted to tell you it's really uncovering.
Joanne Lockwood: The blips the glitches not normalizing those anger or their sister glitch I was chatting to a young black graduate she.
Joanne Lockwood: joined this whole organization with a cohort of a dozen or so other graduates of various backgrounds and genders ethnicities and she felt really empowered that she'd been putting this questions came she felt that the the organization sales were really dni focus.
Joanne Lockwood: And then she found out that one of our White white colleague female graduates have been offered a promotion that wasn't advertised, it was kind of one of those water cooler conversation type.
Joanne Lockwood: Do you want this role and that completely destroyed her faith in their internal processes, there was no openness there's no there's no.
Joanne Lockwood: She didn't even know the vault existed, let alone, it could be applied for, and one of our black colleagues felt the same.
Joanne Lockwood: So this still goes on an organization, where we even be believe there is equity within the internal recruitment process, this is one story shows this is one example of probably many that are uncovered.
Joanne Lockwood: And that's that's what we're trying to fix as well as.
Greg McCaw: 100% that this is, I get very passionate and I pull my dei soapbox about stuff like this.
Greg McCaw: AMA it's great to have an external marketing campaign or brand around your diverse and your commitment to diversity equity and inclusion.
Greg McCaw: But if that is not backed up by the internal reality of what your people experience dead today it is meaningless as an authentic and as performative.
Greg McCaw: And that's where we've really got to challenge ourselves to go to where the hard work is at.
Greg McCaw: and waste things Jo like webinars and training and setting up Dr j's are all incredibly important if we don't start to get into tie our work back to business it comes.
Greg McCaw: and driving greater a parody and equity for our people, we will not see change and that's a perfect.
Greg McCaw: example of it, where there is an ambition to do well and diversity, equity and inclusion, but the internal reality of our employee was completely different and the biggest thing I would encourage and I talked about this a lot.
Greg McCaw: Is stop measuring employee engagement a by the majority don't present it back as the experience of one group of people show me what that data looks like for different diversity groups.
Greg McCaw: So, like an organization we've had a really clear goal that by the end of 20 2020 all of our brands, need to be measuring and engagement across all facets of diversity.
Greg McCaw: And that's a challenging thing to get to that I would love Jo to be able to switch on tomorrow.
Greg McCaw: The backs there's some hard work and frameworks and foundations that needs to be built, first, but some of our brands have already begun to do it.
Greg McCaw: And we're already beginning to see a variables and experience and differences and experiences across different groups so.
Greg McCaw: i'm you know external a reality, a MED or your external ambition needs to be backed up by some real experiences.
Greg McCaw: Internally, and you need to be able to substantiate that it is, and I think, to get there to really get to that point where your big bold statement on your website means something.
Greg McCaw: you've got a really pick apart the processes practices and policies that people experience day in and day out and work.
Greg McCaw: And really ask yourself how much of the working landscape, have we redesigned or redeveloped or disrupted, to make sure it's that.
Greg McCaw: are suited to everybody at work before we make that statement externally, and I think it's fine to have these.
Greg McCaw: Statements on our websites, but I think we need to be anchored in a better reality as well and tampered with that we're not there yet we have so much more work to do, and this is the plan we've led to get there.
Joanne Lockwood: yeah I completely agree with whenever i'm talking to companies about their engagement data, the first question, I will say is who says.
Joanne Lockwood: If you can't tell me who said that not by person person, but by by demographic into sexual demographic.
Joanne Lockwood: If you can't tell me who they are, who are the 85% they're happy and who are the 15% that aren't happy about that 15% that aren't happy, who are the 5% that really aren't really, really aren't happy.
Joanne Lockwood: can be tapped with what the partner in what their ethnicity, what their sexuality is can we can we drill down so actually we can build a model here is that.
Joanne Lockwood: Black women in their 30s are.
Joanne Lockwood: Often, more disenfranchised than black women in their 40s and we can set start looking at why that exists because there are different.
Joanne Lockwood: Different trajectory in their career there's no training purposes, no there's no opportunity for the words for them in the 40s off more seconds in their 20th graduate programs, and then you get into this.
Joanne Lockwood: vacuum when nothing happens whoops oh yeah you did better look at why that group of stalling in their career or or their motivation and that's often what people don't see.
Greg McCaw: Absolutely absolutely absolutely and what you've just described, there is brilliant, because what we're talking about there is is, then, that the tactics, we deploy and the initiatives.
Greg McCaw: We take are designed around the experiences of our people we've actually really got to the work of designing am tactics around real business problems and real experiences.
Greg McCaw: As where I worry, sometimes in a world of dni we don't do enough to understand our internal reality properly.
Greg McCaw: are quite comfortable taking a bit of baseline data from a survey that hasn't broken dying by different facets of diversity.
Greg McCaw: i'm also really comfortable and happy ripping off somebody else's D amp a strategy and just left and injected it into our organization.
Greg McCaw: Without any question around whether it will work in ours, and it might pay a better dividend, but the likelihood is it will drive the change that you need to see.
Greg McCaw: And, and again I love when I hear some of our really data driven leaders like our CEO for the UK will go where are the real problems and opportunities, we need to know that.
Greg McCaw: Am like we've just a needed immediate change to our the way that we do engagement and when you work with me, am a Joel Skype that and gaming we did do this, but we am just launched.
Greg McCaw: A diversity equity and inclusion measurement total am that's come into effect and will be across a 100% of our bronze by the end of next year.
Greg McCaw: And, and then our second battle to that is then to begin to just aggregate that data and a look at what it.
Greg McCaw: looks like for different groups of people because, whilst it's really important for us to have a horizon strategy and be really clear in the trajectory that we're heading in.
Greg McCaw: Water what what type of company, we expect to be in three to four years from nine so that we align our tactics and our programs of work up to driving that change.
Greg McCaw: What real time engagement data also gives you is the ability to lesson learned and act in the moment.
Greg McCaw: And neck immediate changes to people's experiences at work.
Greg McCaw: So, like not everything hinges on the strategy and the other thing that's really important for us, and I think should be important for every other organization is stopped doing sex monthly engagement surface.
Greg McCaw: stop it, because that is not that cannot be the only space for people to be heard, we need to create more spaces for different groups of people.
Greg McCaw: and of all identities and all backgrounds, with different perspectives and experiences to feed back more regularly than every six months, so we're often the frequency of our surveys.
Greg McCaw: Across all brands AMA, some of whom have moved to just three to four simple questions awake.
Greg McCaw: Because what that enables us to do is it improves over liability of data.
Greg McCaw: But I think the other really important conversation topic is all of this COMP set on the eye and he HR defects, we need to empower managers to drive change.
Greg McCaw: And what real time engagement data gives them as a real picture of how their colleagues fame and allows them to take action in the moment to drive positive change, and then make them feel that they are really part of the journey of driving a more inclusive culture.
Joanne Lockwood: Because that also allows with that with that frequency to pick up on societal pressures as well, whether it's a black lives matter trigger whether it's a Sarah rod.
Joanne Lockwood: Violence against women and girls trigger whether that's a gas price hike trigger is over budget trigger we can start looking at what's going on in society.
Joanne Lockwood: And then mirroring our employee experience and say, well, actually what we got here is we've got people from low socio economic backgrounds or status being impacted more significantly, as a result of what's going on in the world and we can start.
Joanne Lockwood: use our corporate power, if you like, a Africa into the white about also recognize the limits bands and challenges are people have to showing up I think that's really, really, really good, and you can you can map that against what's going on in the world, I think that's really, really powerful.
Greg McCaw: So powerful am and complex and it reminds us of how complex this work is that it can be solved in simple one off service.
Greg McCaw: And the complexity of it is high, but when you accept that this work requires in depth think game and data analysis, you can and not example you've just give Dr brilliant and meaningful change.
Greg McCaw: Instead of just assuming that we all show up to work and have the same experiences were able to really dig in to the experiences people have.
Greg McCaw: identify the gaps in those experiences and then act quickly to close those gaps that's like that's that's what really gets me out of bed in the morning.
Greg McCaw: that's what excites me about this one.
Greg McCaw: Is shutting down and clothes and experience gaps for groups of people that's what makes this work incredibly exciting.
Greg McCaw: But to do that, you need, especially from a global perspective, maybe last so in a smaller organization, where you could maybe take a different path to change, but, for me, I cover.
Greg McCaw: 75 different nationalities and a may we're a global business, so I need a scalable solution to be able to less than I am, and to glean insights am we of course don't rely.
Greg McCaw: on it as our single source of truth, but am you need to think of when you're a big organization, you need to think of scalable lessons listening solutions.
Greg McCaw: I am as well and that that's the most exciting thing about having an engagement tool that enables you to do that not a survey, but a real property that enables you to Dave and Edit their experiences and, as you said, look at where the doubt chefs when something happens society as well.
Joanne Lockwood: Oh yeah that's as a major challenge when you've got that the territories that really cultures that be different languages.
Joanne Lockwood: And the nuances that occur between cultures and different countries where the language translations, the time zones, all these things have major factors and it's we've got different privacy laws gdpr in Europe we've got different privacy laws in what we can and can't collect we've got.
Joanne Lockwood: Society check differences in terms of LGBT inclusion how men and women are viewed in society, how race differs between cultures as well, we think about.
Joanne Lockwood: race in one way, but in Berlin, they think about race in a different way in terms of the Turkish immigrant population will be looking at race in Japan or China they're thinking differently so.
Joanne Lockwood: We often look at it from our own maybe Western UK lens sometimes forget about the nuances that DNA has around the world, as you go out and try to.
Joanne Lockwood: create some modernized view of the world, or do we really need to separate it and say, well, this is our view from this territories of even this territory or how do we kind of extract that.
Greg McCaw: So I work with a fantastic team of DNA leads am who are dotted remind our various brands, who have real depth of understanding in the cultural nuances that affect this work.
Greg McCaw: and am what we need to do at a global level, well, what we have done at a global level, as set out some key principles for us on diversity equity and inclusion so we've started some principles and how we believe this work should be delivered most effectively.
Greg McCaw: we've laid out some am benchmarks and standards that we built using the total from the global inclusion Council.
Greg McCaw: Am which provides it's a global effect framework to help us drive towards and strive towards best practice.
Greg McCaw: And there are some goals that we've agreed globally, that we want to achieve and like.
Greg McCaw: Really understanding our internal reality better, you know that go can apply under any culture or any am a country.
Greg McCaw: That before we begin let's work, it is important that the right foundations are in place, having strong foundations matter for any strategy in any country.
Greg McCaw: and am a really putting the land over your practices policies and processes matter in any country or any culture.
Greg McCaw: But what we've said from a global perspective is that high that work is delivered and what our country's am a defined to be their greatest opportunities and challenges is their decision to make.
Greg McCaw: that they have to decide, based on their market and their local challenges, so that I don't expect America, India and Australia to be redesigning or the cm policy.
Greg McCaw: Or am implementing the cm training initiative, then need to look at our overall global ambition and create a local strategy that ladders back up to the principles that we've sat.
Greg McCaw: And, but recognizes that there are markets and not just their country, but even their office locations depends on where they are, are entirely different so.
Greg McCaw: that's our shared ambition and our shared goals, so we don't have a one size fits all and our organization for diversity equity and inclusion.
Greg McCaw: And you know, an example last week was I was working with one of our team in Portugal around beginning to build I Portugal dei ambition on strategy.
Greg McCaw: And, but we ladder that backup quite carefully to our overall global ambition, I am, which is you know we've set three principles I, which have a lot of work underneath it but.
Greg McCaw: Am it might sound rudimentary and the issue, and I say it, but our three principles are to create embed and measure.
Greg McCaw: That we want to ditch once and done activity and focus more in driving long term cultural change.
Greg McCaw: And that, when we create an activity or believe that a tactic is right for our organization that we also put as much thought and energy, and I will embed it.
Greg McCaw: So that that thing that you've created or that tactic that you think is right you're also thinking about how you can embed a deeper into the employee life cycle to bring a bite lasting change.
Greg McCaw: And so, as long as those three principles are been followed and our approach to work in each of our countries and each of our territories am that's fine, but we have to accept that the the landscape of DTI.
Greg McCaw: looks entirely different across different countries and you can't take.
Greg McCaw: Any European centric approach, I am when you go into either of those countries or as your companies owned by a US based company you can't take the US centric approach to drive and dni which just adds to the complexity, Jo and the daily fun of working in diversity, equity and inclusion.
Joanne Lockwood: Is within Western Europe there's a whole different nuances between between countries and their cultures and.
Joanne Lockwood: And what matters to them so yeah no you're right, I can imagine that when we're talking about far east apac region there's a lot of different cultures there which.
Joanne Lockwood: As a as a British English person i'm nowhere near familiar enough to either have a comment on some of those cultures and that's.
Joanne Lockwood: that's, if you like, I said the beauty of D and I and and acquiring that culture diversity to understand those coaches yeah I find that fascinating to understand the different challenges and the different environments that that operate in the world, do you think.
Joanne Lockwood: So we have 1920 months on from from the lockdown in the UK and similar ties with lockdowns and other in other countries around the world.
Joanne Lockwood: We focused a lot in that time around, employee experience you know the same storm different boats really been person centric pushing people home caring.
Joanne Lockwood: Do you think that the employee, experience has started to wane a bit to think, do you think employers are taking their foot off the pedal here, and here we go back to the old ways or.
Joanne Lockwood: ask you to comment, in a general sort of way, maybe not within your own organization, but, but what do you hear about the expense of others.
Greg McCaw: Generally, what I see it in a the an organizational context is it says that organizations are.
Greg McCaw: Some are leaning to dictating am flexibility, which you know and itself was quite ironic because that's not flexible and and.
Greg McCaw: Others are leaving it entirely at the choice of the employee so we've seen big organizations go out and go work your way work anyway and there's been no amount of webinars or Ryan tables that i've been invited to on the future of work or hybrid work in.
Greg McCaw: So I think some organizations are still trying to find their fate on it, I don't think it's.
Greg McCaw: I don't think the conversation is dying or dropping off, but I think what we need to do and accept is we won't have all the answers moving into this new world of work.
Greg McCaw: And that's why it's so important for us to continue to map people's experiences ask difficult questions.
Greg McCaw: test and learn from our new hybrid policies or ways of working and ask and are they working for everybody.
Greg McCaw: And really take an iterative approach to this, you know i've seen know and have playbooks and manuals and guidance and those are useful and needed to a degree, because, whilst you might say something like.
Greg McCaw: Everybody can do what they want, and the company gives you the freedom to choose if 90% of the company had back into the office.
Greg McCaw: And then the other 10% or SATA home feeling under pressure to move back into the office as well it's tough sometimes playbooks and principles are helpful to at least empower people to go well, that decision i've just made for myself as okay my company will support thought.
Greg McCaw: I had met, but we need to take an iterative approach and make sure that we're regularly test in high people fail like hybrid working, and you know at a very rudimentary and basic level, and if you have your first collaborative hybrid matan.
Greg McCaw: Stop the meeting 1520 minutes early and am whiteboard or ask for feedback on how was that experience for everybody in the room.
Greg McCaw: And how was that experience for those of you that joined us on zoom or Microsoft teams, or whatever your choice and technology platform is.
Greg McCaw: And there and high wizard For those of you that are in the room, and what are the gaps between the feedback of those that join remotely.
Greg McCaw: And those that were in the room, and wherever the experience gaps and take those learnings from every meeting you have and every interaction, you have or every experience that you create and use it to keep closing the experience gaps as we.
Greg McCaw: walk through this journey together of learning how to get the best out of this.
Greg McCaw: I am, so I think that's probably the best approach, am I must go to companies like that, but I think are just trying to have all the answers for the.
Greg McCaw: first day of hybrid working you know we're not gonna have that we don't know like we can do as much to prepare our workforce for this, but we've got a pen test and learn I sound like a broken record, but I just do a very agile approach to doing work.
Joanne Lockwood: I think I think we have to be I think that's one thing we have learned is there is no one size fits all it's, as you say it's about test adapt learn tweak try something else.
Joanne Lockwood: Because I spoke to people who've been passionate about going back into the office because that's their either their home environment.
Joanne Lockwood: Is a suitable for them it's noisy, whatever it may be, or they're just they're just they're just a people person that has to have that interaction.
Joanne Lockwood: And they've come back they found the whole back in the office suboptimal it wasn't what they expected because.
Joanne Lockwood: People are expected to see their work, working on the same day or the the boss wasn't there because many people still working remote.
Joanne Lockwood: The commute the mask wearing the tube the whole drudgery go back into the office didn't live up to their that the hype, if you like, so yeah I think even that the most.
Joanne Lockwood: strong advocates about going back to the office are still saying wait a minute isn't what it used to be so we've got to try even adapt that and think about how we're going to end.
Joanne Lockwood: It right it's this initiative process, and I think we need to look at everybody's experience.
Joanne Lockwood: avoid creating this two tier work structure where the people in the office seem to have.
Joanne Lockwood: The power to people work remotely still seem to be the slackers or the yeah the disrupt yeah they're not really working at home, today, as we have a chance that culture that language, how we perceive people have their effectiveness.
Greg McCaw: But what a great job for us to embrace challenge for people teams to embrace that yes, your culture was i'm.
Greg McCaw: Taking slightly from hearing so many companies say but we built our culture on am a US being in the office and connecting face to face well you've.
Greg McCaw: got a great culture you're known for your fantastic culture, what a great opportunity or challenge for you to create a culture that reaches everyone everywhere, what a challenge to fear Center to go that if somebody joins us remotely.
Greg McCaw: In tech in a door sets can we create the same experience for them, or a great not the same experience is not the right word but can we can create a great experience for them.
Greg McCaw: If they've joined a remotely because the one thing people don't have that joined all of our businesses remotely a social capital.
Greg McCaw: They have missed it on the night sights the office gatherings the team meetings, the water cooler chats.
Greg McCaw: And they've joined remotely so they've not had the opportunity to build those relationships and do not social capital.
Greg McCaw: I am, and you know that creates not just a dilemma, and a challenge for us to face into and people experience teams or here HR teams.
Greg McCaw: But it creates a dilemma for us in diversity, equity and inclusion that because, for our line of work.
Greg McCaw: I don't want somebody that's chosen to operate 100% remote late lose it and career progression.
Greg McCaw: On pair decisions, a may or exciting project work or opportunity there access to that opportunity should be to see him as the colleague was chosen to come in every day.
Greg McCaw: A man, and I think it's something that, as you say, will need to task to adapt and learn from but.
Greg McCaw: Continually create a strong continuous feedback loop of what this experience is really like for employees.
Greg McCaw: And that could be through surveys, I think my preferred approach would just be open an open feedback loop where people can just go to and dump feedback at any point in time, and what their.
Greg McCaw: hybrid experiences like because I agree, I went to, and the first day I went back into our leads office, it was fantastic, because I think I spent a more time.
Greg McCaw: greeting people and saying hello to people that I haven't seen any 18 months, and how can people with permission if they were comfortable with that am.
Greg McCaw: I got back to my desk and and.
Greg McCaw: As it got towards the end of the day, I was like i've got to make the commute night back to Manchester and I am not looking forward to getting on the train.
Greg McCaw: And the idea that I might not get a saint or it might be packed am you know you're reminded of the productivity that i've also enjoyed from working from home and how much i've been able to achieve am a working remotely.
Joanne Lockwood: Oh for sure I I read if i'd have to go traveling around the country around the world, all the time I wouldn't have time to do everything I have to do anymore is.
Joanne Lockwood: I I could do 10 things that I rather than one thing that I by by being in 02 mean it's it's a it's a selection of privilege I enjoy.
Joanne Lockwood: I had this big debate with somebody recently when they were talking about.
Joanne Lockwood: How people need to get back to the Office for culture, how people need to go back to the coffee good the Office for enrichment.
Joanne Lockwood: For earlier career advancement of research, etc, etc they're coming up all these reasons why it's go back to the office and I tend to urban culture.
Joanne Lockwood: Now we talked about trying to dispel the myth about hiring for culture, we want, we want culture and values apple was the first thing he said we we did you back for culture, hang on a minute.
Joanne Lockwood: Why do I need your culture, why can't I treat my culture, like my pension.
Joanne Lockwood: I can take my culture with me, so why not invest in me, so I can build a local culture, I can have time my family my children.
Joanne Lockwood: and get involved in my own community projects, I can I can socialize locally, because i'm not Community because i'm not doing all this stuff.
Joanne Lockwood: I can actually build I actually best now in my own culture that I can now take with me to any organization, I suppose the organization and.
Joanne Lockwood: Have days, where I meet people be hard we do all those great things I enjoy the people, but I want to build i'm going to build my own family works in the family work is work it's not kid ourselves, we want to act like a family but families, families don't fly.
Joanne Lockwood: Do six what to do so bill if organizations could encourage people to build their own culture.
Joanne Lockwood: locally in their own communities and then their value that'd be a paid invite treat them like give them opportunities, etc, etc that's why people will stay that's why people will be loyal not because of some nebulous culture and emerge and caps.
Joanne Lockwood: And sweatshirts and things the other people think is culture, and I think that's what we've got to think about when we talk it's great music nation with.
Joanne Lockwood: The rearrangement of work where people haven't haven't met their employer that to me that they've been on boarded remote only some they have to go to work and, if not find the people are working with all.
Joanne Lockwood: Of what they thought it was just going to be this great reset but people start paying run around.
Joanne Lockwood: The neighborhood is culture.
Joanne Lockwood: So I think one of those is is if we will in the future work if we get organizations to find new people and help them build their own.
Joanne Lockwood: Work for work from anywhere there's a quick word from work remotely work from anywhere work from different locations.
Joanne Lockwood: to minimize the Community a cop 26 we're talking down about reducing our own personal impact on the environment that's commuting that's electricity usage that's fossil fuel us is whatever that may be.
Joanne Lockwood: The future of society it's about being is not consuming as much, and if you're commuting with consuming, so I think we've got to try and encourage people not to consume in the same way, so that that's a great advocate for working remotely So how do we, how do we do that, how do we do that.
Greg McCaw: let's say I am it's it's first accepted, and I think less relies on the leaders that we talked about in an organization have to accept that am.
Greg McCaw: Yesterday, is good, is no longer good enough and that the constraints am or the structures that you've put in place to create a culture.
Greg McCaw: Pre pandemic are gone they're broken they're no longer fit for purpose, and if you don't begin to challenge yourself on how to create better experiences for people.
Greg McCaw: And more enrichment at work with your colleagues who choose to work remotely and have, as you said, greedy and the gift of time and.
Greg McCaw: more valuable time with their families, their needs, organizations and businesses well for behind we've gotta let go with traditional working constraints and challenge ourselves it's new thinking job it's new grind.
Greg McCaw: it's not a space that we've been in before, and the answer just isn't hybrid working I am it's deeper than that and it's more complex than that.
Greg McCaw: So don't let your approach to culture be dictated by traditional working practices, first of all, except and it met that what's gone before, will no longer work night, regardless of what your.
Greg McCaw: Regardless of what your works possession or your company's possession is on hybrid working what's gone before, will no longer work.
Greg McCaw: And if you're not prepared as a business to evolve and think about right folks let's get into a room let's do a hackathon.
Greg McCaw: let's talk about the different experiences and facilitators of our people.
Greg McCaw: ditch the traditional constraints and talk about the types of experiences that we'd really want to create for people build some different personas.
Greg McCaw: And matt bad experiences based in those personas and poker leaders together to really hack hack into the problem that we have, but also the opportunity that lies ahead of us to create a fantastic company, regardless of where you are and I love what you said by.
Greg McCaw: You know your culture and your experiences could just be the time that you now have had gifted back to spend with your family.
Greg McCaw: Or that time that you have to go for a walk on am a lunch time that we've also got to be okay, with some people might not want to a some people do come to work to get paired and clock off, but not everybody needs am and a.
Greg McCaw: Well fee hugely attached to your companies, and I think it matters that you feel fulfilled personally and have a purpose, so that you belong to an organization, but not everybody might feel passionate about the company's overall purpose.
Greg McCaw: AMA so you've really got to challenge yourself and thinking around how you engage people remotely I don't have all of the answers on that, but I think the place to start as a stay build.
Greg McCaw: personas map by the different types of characters and people that you might have in your business.
Greg McCaw: Experience map what their experience might be like and then ask yourself the question what type of experience, would you want them to have.
Greg McCaw: High would you want them to fee when they're at home and not in the Office what am about your organization, its values and its goals.
Greg McCaw: And really hack around the problem and and come up with some solutions, but I said, has to start with accepting that am what we did yesterday, is no longer good enough today.
Joanne Lockwood: I think that's a great place to leave this we've been going for over an hour, so I think that's.
Joanne Lockwood: I love that completely when you're talking about it's about the hackathon it's about looking at the real people's experience, how do you want to make people feel when they're working either from the office of remotely and what's that.
Joanne Lockwood: what's the objective what we trying to get out of people in terms of their feeling, how do you want to make them feel so yeah I think I think that's really powerful that.
Joanne Lockwood: Without that engagement without that true talking to our to our colleagues and send their lived experience we're never going to solve that problem, and I think making these broad brush statements.
Joanne Lockwood: is always going to do is end up benefiting some and disenfranchising a whole and others, which is why we talk about split nation that will the time so that's been really tough love love chatting with me for now Greg it's been absolutely fantastic.
Joanne Lockwood: So how do.
Joanne Lockwood: people get hold of you i'm sure that it is on LinkedIn or something or house.
Greg McCaw: Not the only but they you know they can follow me on instagram if they want Jo but all they'll see as pictures of am a ginger fluffy cats like it's not the most engaged in a platforms.
Greg McCaw: And where you made some see something more meaningful of substance would be on linkedin so if people want to reach out to me they can connect with me on linkedin.
Joanne Lockwood: yeah a lot of work you're doing with flutter The sub brand and also the sky betting gaming there's a lot of good stuff that you're doing I know this, so people are looking for inspiration.
Joanne Lockwood: Then, by following you and following some of your team they'll be able to get a lot of a lot of.
Joanne Lockwood: feeling for what you're doing what you're trying to achieve so it was listened to you today i'm sure we'll take inspiration for that.
Joanne Lockwood: So thanks Greg and a huge, thank you to my listeners for tuning in and.
Joanne Lockwood: and get to this fire in the podcast Thank you so much, please do subscribe and keep updated for future episodes of the inclusion bites podcast as, be it yes.
Joanne Lockwood: Please tell your friends tell your colleagues i've got a number of exciting guests lined up that i'm sure you'll be also inspired by over the next few weeks or months and, of course.
Joanne Lockwood: If you'd like to be a guest, please let me know i'm always looking for guests, so if you have any feedback or suggestions, please contact me jo dot lockwood see change happen dot co dot uk.
Joanne Lockwood: Tell me how we can improve tell me what you like tell me what you hate, so my name is Jonnne Lockwood it's been an absolute pleasure to host podcast today catch you next time bye.