Joanne Lockwood: Hello everyone, my name is Joanne lockwood nivea your host for the inclusion bites podcast.
Joanne Lockwood: In this series i've interviewed a number of amazing people are simply had a conversation about the subject of inclusion belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive.
Joanne Lockwood: you'd like to join me in the future, and please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk as S double E change happened dot co do uk you can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes spotify and the usual places to plug in headphones grab a decaf and let's get going.
Joanne Lockwood: Today is episode 49.
Joanne Lockwood: With the title building stepping stones to a better future, I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by Rachel Oliver, Rachel describes herself as a media broadcaster and presenter.
Joanne Lockwood: were asked Rachel to describe her superpower, she said, it is the fact she's Australian through and through June national and proudly ozzy first and foremost, that is her superpower Hello Rachel welcome to the show.
Rachel Oliver: hi Jo and thank you, that was a great welcome and.
Rachel Oliver: it's brilliant to be here and.
Rachel Oliver: let's just go into the Australian but i'm a jewel national and I was born here in the UK in the north of England so for 20 years I have a very, very broad accident and then I went to live in Australia, and I was there for about 34 years and.
Rachel Oliver: 34 fantastic years and working there and in the Middle East as well, we can go into that, if you like us on stage.
Rachel Oliver: But since coming back here i've been back about three four years now, and my Australian accent.
Rachel Oliver: waxes and wanes very much depending on if i've spoken to home, recently, and my kids are still out there, but you will hear some.
Rachel Oliver: Australian isms and you'll also hear some happier you'll hear some broad flat vowels because i'm in rochdale and that's what we celebrate here, so the other super power of God, by the way, I just want to get into that is.
Rachel Oliver: Why i'm a transgender one I reckon that is accelerating that trumps just about every other superpower that there is.
Rachel Oliver: But it's not me 100% and I happen to be transgender so that's why I actually don't use it as a superpower, as such, because it's just the as part of me.
Rachel Oliver: i'm multifaceted i've got loads of assets and and lots of experience in life i've done are many, many things and i've got plans to do many more, but my big passion currently and has been last couple years is.
Rachel Oliver: Is broadcasting and that's an early I never expected to get into.
Rachel Oliver: And it came as a massive massive supplies to me that I had this capability, if you like, and and it's and it's God given I that I am it's it's something that was must have been there just needed the right circumstances to bring it out and and now it's called.
Rachel Oliver: My God and I write my own stuff as well, so um yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: i'll see you on a on a TV show.
Joanne Lockwood: A year or so ago, did I see you on TV today.
Rachel Oliver: Well i've been on the telly a couple of times and but yeah you saw me probably starting my stuff on first dates ballantine's day special rusty.
Rachel Oliver: was named one.
Joanne Lockwood: I remember.
Rachel Oliver: And that was the door that was the door that's suddenly swung open and this pause door into another world swung open and that's how I got into into media, if you like.
Rachel Oliver: and
Rachel Oliver: it's just been life changing it gave me such a best understanding of myself and my capabilities and.
Rachel Oliver: That I wanted to know more, so I did investigate your deeper, and I was asked to do a radio program with who I worked with a moment which is Sunday radio.
Rachel Oliver: And I was asked to represent the LGBT foundation here in Manchester and just on a small talk that we're doing and on death and dying what I subject I mean come on.
Rachel Oliver: But i'm a nursing background i've got a extensive nursing background I was a registered nurse, for many, many years.
Rachel Oliver: So I reckon that could talk about death and dying and how it affects us as trans people, and it does and, and so I want to know from a prolific writer of notes and.
Rachel Oliver: I wake up in the middle of the night and write notes, believe it or not, I have a thing at the side in the bed now, so what I can do it without actually opening one I but.
Rachel Oliver: I died honestly i've gone off now but let's just come back to what I was saying about how I got into it, because.
Rachel Oliver: I did this program and I had 15 minutes of fame that's the radio program and.
Rachel Oliver: I had so many notes that I hadn't touched, so I actually contacted the radio station and said look if you need a transgender person to actually you know bit of input and kept me in and and the producer contacted me and said look yeah we're interested but.
Rachel Oliver: You know, write a synopsis of your hike of what your show is going to be about and.
Rachel Oliver: And we'll make the show and naive Lee I said well who's gonna write this show and.
Rachel Oliver: It just went blank at the other end of the phone for a few seconds, and then I realized to my horror that it was me who is going to be the script behind.
Rachel Oliver: So, and I was given some pointers at not very many, but I was given some and I was given a what's called a one sheet in the trade we use what's called the run sheet, where you put down your notes and your tracks and everything and I produced the show and then i've just.
Rachel Oliver: i've just written show number 35 I think it is.
Rachel Oliver: And i've got each show begets more more more so i've got law, I can probably double the amount of shows that even now, because each one suggests doing something else so and I love it it's just an not only that because we're because we're trans people on a trans person.
Rachel Oliver: What it does is it allows me to express myself and basically talk about being trans in this world and i've got two parts of my program which are pretty constant most programs run around about the same.
Rachel Oliver: In content that the content differs but there's two solid bits in the program and one of them is.
Rachel Oliver: Our boss to transmit which I love doing, I mean it's i'm are transmitted buster.
Rachel Oliver: So i'll do that and then.
Rachel Oliver: And our integrated into the program it always falls in somewhere and later on in the program i'll do a trans ally, or the Trans icon as I call them and they can be trans gender transgender male female non binary or even.
Rachel Oliver: Non trans allies and I have on a couple of occasions brought in.
Rachel Oliver: A non living thing, if you like, one of the great ones I did was I did the pale in one the 1967.
Rachel Oliver: pill, if you like, because that change the structure of society so massive way overnight that I thought he deserved icon status.
Rachel Oliver: And so that i'll bring them in and i'll.
Rachel Oliver: Usually the Trans icons are known certainly known to the trans world but they might not be known to our allies and, by the way, I made trans allies, an entire icon in one program as I did, I took the alive ship, or maybe the icon because I think our our eyes are our most important people.
yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: So you.
Joanne Lockwood: Think I think it's fantastic you what your own radio show yourself present you edit edit but you, you certainly curated you find your guests and so that that's really fantastic so, what was the kind of viewing figures you know, is it is it a watch tales or Center station is it.
Rachel Oliver: No um Well, first of all I work with my producer who's also my sound engineer, and if you hop over and have a listen anytime and i'm hoping that people will.
Rachel Oliver: My sound engineer is called Dom i've got a great sense of humor and a fantastic relationship with Dom I love him to bits is excellent job and.
Rachel Oliver: I asked him if you'll put some olive sound effects i'm a real fan of sound effects and playing with sound and i'll ask him, you know to integrate into the i'll put little notes in my scripts, if you like, just can you do this, can I have.
Rachel Oliver: Can I have simon's kind of have this kind of have helicopters i've got one where helicopters and all that kind of thing, and he actually does it and it's very, very professional now Sunday is a Manchester based.
Rachel Oliver: radio station, if you like, we work from central Manchester and near to the old coronation street buildings, in fact, I think the building when used to be part the coronation street set at one stage.
Rachel Oliver: And that's where we work and record farm and do all our magic, if you like, it goes out to Manchester, but it also goes out worldwide, this is the beauty of my program it's a podcast and it goes out on the day, so you know, on whatever I know it's not set days I work.
Rachel Oliver: I might I do a lot of specials so, for instance i've just done one art for how a week so that went out on Halloween night.
Rachel Oliver: i've got another one coming out in a couple of weeks time and then i've got a special for Christmas Day, which is a noisy Christmas, believe it or not so.
Rachel Oliver: And the reason i'm doing Australian Christmas, if you like, is i've got a lot of Australian listeners, so they hop on to our radio garden I think it's called and they can get the podcast.
Rachel Oliver: Or the can listening directly on Sunday do on Christmas Day on the day so i've got people like to me and friends that say you know, can I listen to your program in virtually all over the world, so i've got America, Australia.
Rachel Oliver: Quite a few in you.
Joanne Lockwood: yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: So all over the world, you see, you got a real kind of global audience so before we came online when I press the record button.
Joanne Lockwood: we're talking about this building stepping stone to a better future and how your tell me what tell me, but what we're talking about tell me about your ethos on this around.
Joanne Lockwood: I identify as trans you identify transits, this is a transport us at the moment, so tell me about the stepping stones, what do you mean by that.
Rachel Oliver: Okay, so stepping stones how.
Rachel Oliver: I fit into the stepping stone ethos, if you hire because the Trans person is the way I look at it is.
Rachel Oliver: Our agenda with it, we are today's generation of transgender people.
Rachel Oliver: and
Rachel Oliver: Part of being trans now is that we, we are representative of our Community, if you like, now.
Rachel Oliver: we're going to pass what we do now into the future, so for people that are not tons yet or maybe.
Rachel Oliver: For some people that are maybe not born yet we're going to pass what we do on this planet for our Community onto them similarly.
Rachel Oliver: People from previous generations, people like April Ashley and lily Elbe, I mean, these are two enormous transgender icons and and one of the biggest one, of course, is master P Johnson, probably the biggest one.
Rachel Oliver: Not all of them have passed, yet I think april's very much alive, but the others have passed they've gone, but what they did is they, they put down the ground rules, if you like, that they they put the.
Rachel Oliver: The level the level data off and they identified the issues.
Rachel Oliver: A lot of the issues that de identified we're still fighting was still in fact we've taken a step back in the last three or four years definitely taking a step back step back.
Rachel Oliver: And back to when April Ashley transition that's so far we've gone back I reckon anyway and and it's our job to represent and push this forward and it hurts it's gonna hurt others were in pain when definitely.
Joanne Lockwood: You said we're going backwards, so in in what way are we going backwards, I mean did we ever do we ever get forward, I mean How far have we come back what was the things that I mean.
Joanne Lockwood: Well, I mean like I took it as often but yet there's hear your perspective on on what it's like to be trans in the worst day, why have we gone backwards.
Rachel Oliver: And we were making quite serious headway, we were taking two steps forward and maintaining those steps.
Rachel Oliver: I just give you a bit of background now I I started transition around about 15 years old, approximately i'm 6362 now i've.
Rachel Oliver: Given myself a year and i'm 62 now so i've been i've been transitioning basic or been a trans woman for 12 years.
Rachel Oliver: And i've seen some ignore I started in Australia, by the way, transitioning and i've seen some enormous changes in how we are perceived and for about four or five years ago, certainly, before I came to the UK.
Rachel Oliver: It was still difficult being transgender, but I could see that will make him movements forward, and then I moved here and.
Rachel Oliver: Then I realized that there were political issues going on here that maybe we're going to cause us some problems, this is about four years ago now, and what i've noticed is in those four years while i've been here.
Rachel Oliver: We definitely definitely have taken steps back and we're having to defend our rights now, whereas before they were rights that we that were just there we didn't have to defend them where they were there, they were in law.
Rachel Oliver: They were relatively secure, but now what i'm finding is that those laws are now being put into question and we're having to defend ourselves quite robustly nowadays, because we are slipping back now if we go back and you might.
Rachel Oliver: you're relatively vague about the same generation as me so if we go back to the 1960s, the late 50s sorry so.
Rachel Oliver: If we go back to the 1960s and the early 60s.
Rachel Oliver: Trans people could self identify them and they seem to have more freedom, then, then we them that we have now, so we have this problem now about self identification now rightly or wrongly, it depends, which side of the of the coin, you on.
Rachel Oliver: You know I mean now state my coin I I believe in self identification.
Rachel Oliver: And yet.
Joanne Lockwood: don't we self declare self identify anyway, I mean I I went to my doctor I said, Dr helped me i'm i'm i'm trans I want you to refer me to a clinic.
Joanne Lockwood: And, in the meantime, I asked him to write lesson which is into the passport office I played my driving us, I did my home depot got to fantasize in the pub.
Joanne Lockwood: yeah that evolved any form of onerous process, so what what what's all the fuss about South ID, then I mean we talked about is to be a major issue in sight, it was what's the big deal I self ids and i'm living my life successfully was the challenge.
Rachel Oliver: That people face exactly exactly that's exactly what that's that's absolutely exactly like.
Rachel Oliver: I was amazed when I started to do the legal aspects of positioning and but.
Rachel Oliver: I do have to say I started this in Australia, because i'm jewel national and I also had to do some really stuff as well, so I haven't had a British passport for a long, long time and.
Rachel Oliver: I just had my Australian passport and then, when I want to decided, I was to come and live here and I decided that I obviously needed a British passport, because I have to play my place and I thought all.
Rachel Oliver: This is going to be hard because i'm applying for passport now in another name and another agenda, and this is just going to be a terrific and I was amazed from a distance between you know we're talking here i'm sat down in Perth 12,000 miles away and.
Rachel Oliver: And couldn't believe how easy it was there were a couple of blips along the way, there was one little blip about.
Rachel Oliver: I had to go to my GP and, by the way, I had a fantastic GP in Australia and the wording wasn't quite what the passport office required.
Rachel Oliver: So, being an Einstein and we are very upfront are these are generally up front and then we'll talk they won't take any nonsense off anybody, myself included, and.
Rachel Oliver: He said, are This is ridiculous, but what he did, is he he read my letter and he wrote the exact words that the passport office had written and and that's all he just he actually Professor them and said.
Rachel Oliver: Well they've got to be happy with this, and of course it went through and I got my passport, so you like we do self identify and when we don't wake you know we don't wake up one morning and say.
Rachel Oliver: You know it's a nice sunny day today I think i'll be a transgender woman we don't do it and and that's ridiculous thing but hey some people actually think that's what we do so.
Joanne Lockwood: We actually spend he spent half my life try not to be we spend all that time repressing it pushing it back doing everything we can, not to transition, not to be not to be honest with ourselves it's far far the opposite we're not we're not rushing out.
Joanne Lockwood: And celebrating this we're fighting it and fighting it, and eventually.
Joanne Lockwood: We get it we can't stop ourselves is becomes necessary, and I think often when we're misrepresented by by people who.
Joanne Lockwood: have an agenda that I don't fully understand myself, but the frustration thing with the agenda recognition at review that without on in 2018 Theresa may government started and then got.
Joanne Lockwood: stuck in the mud under Boris and brexit and coven of the assets into buried, it is that it doesn't offer any solution for people in non binary.
Joanne Lockwood: We as a binary trans women myself, you are as trans masculine friends, I have trans men, we can largely change our passport driving license and continuing the world.
Joanne Lockwood: We can, after bit of fast, we can because mostly access hormones and treatment if we yeah it's not easy, sometimes but it's quite honest, but there is nothing.
Joanne Lockwood: Currently, that someone who identifies non binary can do under the law they can't have a gender neutral passport driving license they can't have a government official documents.
Joanne Lockwood: That aren't binary male or female, and that that's the frustration, as I think that's the key issue attitude recognition for is the protection non binary the other stuff.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes, it's important, yes, we need it, yes, we need that protection but it's there's a whole sector of society, the non binary individuals.
Joanne Lockwood: Who are included at all or protected at all and that's the frustration and we, I think we saw.
Joanne Lockwood: There was rose to oversee Jaguar Land Rover where they they under the employment tribunal, they verified the fact that people are added First Non binary are covered by the protective characters of.
Joanne Lockwood: Gender transition or the intention of transitioning whatever the wording is of the content so non binding for that people do have protection under the law now.
Joanne Lockwood: But they can't do a fundamental human right of having a passport in their own ID and that's the frustration, I think, with it, with what's going on at the moment.
Joanne Lockwood: I can, I can live with a bit of bit of inconvenience if I die they're going to bury me as my birthday yeah and if i've got.
Joanne Lockwood: A really not helpful vicar or celebrant they're going to call that my my birth name or my dead name at my funeral which is going to upset everybody.
Joanne Lockwood: Or if I wanted to get married again which which I don't i'd have to get married in my birth assign gender so.
Joanne Lockwood: To be that's the difference, it makes yeah i'm not bode about my pension at the moment yeah I think pinch, a good company complicated for everybody, so.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes, it's important for me to have that birth certificate, but it doesn't give me a key to the toilet he doesn't give me a right to do anything else other than die get married and be legally recognized, so I could largely live without it is the non binary people that i'm concerned about.
Rachel Oliver: I think that's been picked up very much in you know.
Rachel Oliver: As you know, that recently they asked for submissions, if you like, and I think some for the changes in the act and.
Rachel Oliver: I think a lot of people trans people lot in and said.
Rachel Oliver: You know, there were various ways that people responded and some of them were you know went all the way the whole hog, if you like, of.
Rachel Oliver: Well, we want X, Y and zed and we want this old changing and.
Rachel Oliver: Self identification will give us that.
Rachel Oliver: But what they didn't realize it what people a hot dog realize, is that we have we can do those things, as you just pointed out, we can access certain things.
Rachel Oliver: Yes, there are end of life considerations and which are quite serious, for if you're willing to live with them, then you can you're not going to be the one who's dealing with it anyway somebody else's could be dealing with that, so I can understand what you're saying there.
Rachel Oliver: and
Rachel Oliver: What i'm amazed by is, I have a friend, I have to transgender people here in in my village and we're very good friends, all three of us.
Rachel Oliver: And one of them has got a certificate and two of us haven't and there is no difference in the lifestyle between the one who has under two who haven't.
Rachel Oliver: And I reckon that's pretty significant it's just literally a piece of paper that you stick on the wall, she has a certificate and stick it on the wall and so what big deal, and I think that's been picked up in this inquiry.
Joanne Lockwood: So what you're saying, then, is you haven't suddenly turned into crazy people a threat to society or destroying family values, all the other things were accused of your just.
Joanne Lockwood: Three people getting on with life trying to be happy not causing anybody any convenience and probably destructive and valuable members of society that's so that's what we want to be really.
Rachel Oliver: that's it and I think people I don't know what people think about actually I don't think people think at all, and my the way I live my life is i'm not transgender above everything with the big sign of mad and everything else is subservient to that.
Rachel Oliver: Be transgender is just another part or it's just another part of my life, I mean I as I described myself or your own i'm very multifaceted but many facets and.
Rachel Oliver: In what I do, I mean i'm a military a dealer for god's sake and i've been a gold Prospector i've done it honestly what but some believable when I look back at my life, but none of these were.
Rachel Oliver: You couldn't put trans at the beginning, oh she's a transmitter to dealer or she's a she's a trans gold Prospector that will be ridiculous so.
Rachel Oliver: I think what it does do your is.
Rachel Oliver: I think it gives us another viewpoint which frightens people because.
Rachel Oliver: We can look and you'll be i'm sure you'll agree with this, we can look at a situation.
Rachel Oliver: From entirely two aspects of life, we can look at the male aspect and the female aspect, and I think that's a saleable commodity it's absolutely saleable because we getting a.
Rachel Oliver: 360 degree view point on an issue, instead of a one sided issue you know 180 degrees view and then having to bring another person in to have a loop.
Rachel Oliver: The opposite gender and So what do you think tour because they always say when did when they do surveys don't the men and women they've got it here in one package and I make a joke of this I.
Rachel Oliver: I have in the past, made a joke of it when i've been in employment and said you do and I did it in my last job when I applied for it and got it got the job.
Rachel Oliver: And I did say the interview will laughingly but seriously you do realize that you're going to have to pay me to some of these and.
Rachel Oliver: The person interview me looks absolutely a guest serious because they were going to the idea in their head oh my God this person is asking for another salary.
Rachel Oliver: And I played, along with it a little bit and said you do realize that you're getting two people for the one job so you have to pay me twice and that played about with it for a while and then, and then we had a bit of we had a laugh about it and, but I did.
Rachel Oliver: I didn't mean it in a in a funny kind of way to to explain to them that.
Rachel Oliver: Exactly what they're getting they're getting an all the founder and we are the all we have a true old founders, you know, and if you go back in history you're you.
Rachel Oliver: And i'm sure you'll know this and Jen, and this is about stepping forward, by the way this is come back to what we were saying about stepping forward so.
Rachel Oliver: If we look back at generations that have come before us and we go back quite a way back say but 200 years, maybe, and we go to places like North America and.
Rachel Oliver: And the Indians, the reading the I always want to save that Indians, but if you said that i'm sure to be a Pole, if you said that but.
Rachel Oliver: I always thought.
Joanne Lockwood: of Americans native American.
Joanne Lockwood: nation, some people face first nation.
Joanne Lockwood: yeah indigenous population there's there's yeah there's there's better terms but yeah I know what you mean is better term, then, as you said, the.
Rachel Oliver: back from where i'm from the we have the indigenous.
Rachel Oliver: American is if you're like I don't like the word yeah bridge or Funnily enough, I don't use that word I don't like it, but they are called the indigenous population, but if we just go back and look at North American indigenous population, and we will cook fried indigenous population.
Rachel Oliver: way back in history, they had a third gender.
Rachel Oliver: The islanders and in the Pacific hub a third gender that cherry have a name for it, the the Indians in the subcontinent of India have a third gender.
Rachel Oliver: And these people are highly respected this third generation is actually it's it's almost godlike it's celebrated and they're given us a word I think they still are, in some instances, given a special place in society.
Rachel Oliver: Because.
Rachel Oliver: The societies recognize that these people do have something about them that's different but maybe a different way, a different site.
Rachel Oliver: We could call them walk, I suppose, which is a horrible word that they're using now and they're trying to destroy that word, but I do think we have another I will have a third I reckon we as as trans people will have a different viewpoint on society and.
Rachel Oliver: And that's part of this stepping what were the stepping forward and we need to, we need to nurture this and we need to hold it in in absolute respect and pass it forward into the next generation because they're going to take it.
Joanne Lockwood: yeah yeah i'm with you on that, I mean I I I live a lot of my life socialized and brought up as a as a as a male as a as a person who.
Joanne Lockwood: I network to hang out with mainly men male only groups Melanie clubs and I didn't yes it's not privileged you don't realize a privilege to have when we breathe it in all the time, something to do you lose that privilege and you come out of the.
Joanne Lockwood: That ECHO Chamber into a different ECHO Chamber we come out of that environment you suddenly realize what it feels like to be.
Joanne Lockwood: From an oppressed and marginalized or or stigmatized community and suddenly this hits you in the face like like opening the door of a phrase or something blows into your face ago wow wow as in my previous life I never had any idea it wasn't I was.
Joanne Lockwood: I wasn't asleep to the trading justice I, but obviously I wasn't fully woke I wasn't awoken to what's going on as a white male at the time.
Joanne Lockwood: I didn't even grasp the need or the awareness, I was just doing my thing, and now I think having transitioned having shared and jettisoned.
Joanne Lockwood: A large proportion of my privilege, but not only justin some privilege, but taken on the baggage of an oppressed minority group that is under attack, I now look around the world, and I see it completely differently, and I think when we talk about some of these other cultures.
Joanne Lockwood: With in our past as a nation and Europe and other other we exported Christianity religion.
Joanne Lockwood: With colonialism and we imprinted these these values of add the binary around what the definition of byte of long.
Joanne Lockwood: And we set back other cultures that evolved independently and independently evolved into having multiple genders, and then oppressed that concept, not only in those countries, but also in our own country we're still fighting that there's the biblical.
Joanne Lockwood: it's using a Christian analogy i'm not going to be Christian here, there are other artists, obviously, but using this the typical definitions of right and wrong family values good and bad.
Joanne Lockwood: And the police in people into these boxes about how they can can't behave identify because people now feeling that is disrupting their whole sense of.
Joanne Lockwood: The world is like shock horror sorry, you know we made this shit up several thousand years ago.
Joanne Lockwood: We kept talking about this stuff we made up bullshit I mean we've suppressed and oppress the masses with it.
Joanne Lockwood: And now the message to go hang on a minute, this is all bs, why do we have to live by this made up stuff.
Joanne Lockwood: Around the binary gender the binary vols we can escape that program and I think that's what's challenging people when they realize that they don't have to follow this doctrine at bs that we've we've propagated.
Joanne Lockwood: Over the last.
Joanne Lockwood: centuries and actually we can go hang on a minute we can be ourselves here.
Rachel Oliver: yeah it's true, and then I had a car.
Rachel Oliver: I think you could describe it as a bit of an Epiphany EPI.
Rachel Oliver: Certainly, when I.
Rachel Oliver: Was deciding to transition, but actually I can trace that Epiphany moment.
Rachel Oliver: years before because.
Rachel Oliver: I actually i've got two kids and.
Rachel Oliver: I didn't give birth to my kids hurts get that straight I didn't they've got a mom and i'm not mom i'm still dad and bought and.
Rachel Oliver: My partner at the time we were both nurses will will want senior nurses and one of us had to pat work and and and look after.
Rachel Oliver: was certainly the first child and then two years later, the second one, and so one of us had to decide to abandon the career, if you like, at the time or temporarily or even permanently.
Rachel Oliver: And that felt to me do our reasons for that I was actually involved in another industry, as well as a book, I was a book.
Rachel Oliver: bookseller and and I had that interest, and that was the formation of a business but.
Rachel Oliver: I actually walked away from a very, very good career as a technical theatre nurse and operating theatres.
Rachel Oliver: And I started as an as a became what I described myself at the time as a Mr mom.
Rachel Oliver: I used to laugh about it because i'm going to pick the kids up from all the kids have both of them actually in lead, two years ago and pick him up from school and junior school.
Rachel Oliver: And primary school and i've been the only male in the peg in the in the playground at three o'clock in the afternoon picking the kids up, and it was great I had a bit of a flock around me I loved it and people use I did actually hear that term Mr mom and I used to I used to love it.
Rachel Oliver: And I felt so comfortable in that role, and it was an Epiphany moment I realized that there were aspects of my masculinity then that weren't masculine and.
Rachel Oliver: and
Rachel Oliver: Essentially I started to look at life from that moment on, I started to look at life differently, and which, of course, when.
Rachel Oliver: much deeper much deeper much deeper way into my 40s and I got to the end of my bodies and I realized that i've been fighting.
Rachel Oliver: My gender issues for 15 years and it couldn't go any any further could not, I could not happily live life any longer, and being a fake because I actually felt that I was.
Rachel Oliver: faking being a bar this time I was thinking i'm faking being a man it's ridiculous I don't feel like a man, and then I look back at my and i'm sure you've done it I look back at my life before transition, and it was like stepping stones, all the way through to where I was now of of.
Rachel Oliver: The signs that I, you know i've got a female mind a female be in a male body and something had to change it had just had to alter and and i've done, you know the usual things that a lot of trans women do when you look back on the right they've been in the military.
Rachel Oliver: or they've done very masculine talk some of the things i've done a bit salt masculine it's just unbelievable but that's because I was.
Rachel Oliver: I was proving myself, I was proving my testosterone and hey look, you know in basically that's what I was doing showing the muscles and doing that and.
Rachel Oliver: it's all a lie, because as soon as as I soon as I went on hormones I realized, it was like a big ol weight coming off and I realized that wow.
Rachel Oliver: This is it, this is what I should feel like and how liberating it felt to tech that you're up that masculine your coffin so in the corner and say that set now the new anymore and.
Rachel Oliver: That liberation has stayed with me, ever since I could never Imagine going back to that it would be.
Rachel Oliver: It would be unbelievably crew to return to that and I don't think I don't think people who are anti trans realize the depths of our transition now how deep it is and and how permanent it is.
Rachel Oliver: For what 99% of ours it's permanent we're not going to turn down that we don't want to walk back through that door was locked.
Rachel Oliver: You know i'd have it sealed up and brick took behind me i'm quite happy to do that that's how that's how firm I am about my.
Rachel Oliver: My progress has been I can, where I am now in society, so I think we've got a lot to offer society, and I think it's time that people like the mainstream media i'm very grateful for the media.
Joanne Lockwood: And I do apologize i've.
Joanne Lockwood: Just as you're talking, I was thinking, I do remember that.
Joanne Lockwood: There was a Disney pixar film called inside out and it's This is like his characters in someone's head and they put his balls and they put them into shoots for the memories.
Joanne Lockwood: And one of the characters is kind of like this, this grumpy red blue key character and he keeps driving the head and keeps taking over and.
Joanne Lockwood: Pushing everybody out the way and at the end they kind of they get the male character and then the women start driving the personality.
Joanne Lockwood: And so I felt I had this is grumpy blokey character in my head silencing all my female voices all the things that are going on taking over the time talking for me.
Joanne Lockwood: putting words into my mouth my brain didn't want to use doing things that I didn't want to be, and finally, if you say this transition the.
Joanne Lockwood: The the I also think about you know people talk about male or female brain I for me it's around that testosterone.
Joanne Lockwood: and lack of testosterone estrogen lack of estrogen so going from a brain, that is, has testosterone.
Joanne Lockwood: Driving emotions and thoughts versus our brains, driven by a surgeon is a completely different way of looking at life and so by by stopping the testosterone feed and putting the.
Joanne Lockwood: I was able to silence that that that the entity in my head that didn't really have a place, and now I don't know how you feel, but I have, I have when i'm quiet i'm quiet, I have peace in my head when I have one voice, I have one me I don't have this conflict this argument this.
Joanne Lockwood: is dealing with the aftermath of situations that I got myself into and when Why am I doing this is.
Joanne Lockwood: It sounds remote controlling my body I don't like this is not where I want to be, and then try and deal with it, but now I feel completely in control of who I am.
Joanne Lockwood: Silence when it's quiet I don't there's no conflict in my head there's nothing going on and it's just this one voice one me that's that's the difference i've noticed and I can't even remember what it's like next is what five or six years i've almost forgotten about how noisy and and.
Joanne Lockwood: distracting and conflicting it was i'm just.
Joanne Lockwood: Just relaxed and calm and it's that's that's for me the significant part.
Joanne Lockwood: yeah allowing me to be me not driven by somebody else that's that's a significant difference i've noticed.
Rachel Oliver: yeah I I couldn't concur with that and I actually call each to do mistress East region and I lovingly call about because i'm I sees the German very much in a female form and.
Rachel Oliver: And i've said a number of times how grateful I am to Mr.
Rachel Oliver: For taking care of me but.
Rachel Oliver: It does change the way you think about.
Rachel Oliver: yourself and your family, but it also changes, how you think about the world and.
Rachel Oliver: You know just going back to what you said before.
Rachel Oliver: But before free transition I hadn't had any zero interest or experience of the LGBT world it was like I used to read about it and hear that, on the news radio to TV and then the newspapers were before I abandoned reading newspapers and.
Rachel Oliver: Though it was it was the LGBT Greg LGBT in capital letters and I never got involved in it and literally the moment I started to take hormones, I was.
Rachel Oliver: thrown into this world surrounded by these big letters and had to find my place in that world and we're 50 but I certainly did belong in it, because society told me, you know belong into that world and that's where you are and.
Rachel Oliver: I found my place now in that world I know exactly where I am and what I had to literally I mean literally go online at the time and start.
Rachel Oliver: Looking at words starting to understand what the LGBT system and world is all about, and what it constitutes and we're about siam on it, so I had to do a little a a crash course in.
Rachel Oliver: In diversity and.
Rachel Oliver: That taught me so much about how little, as you said, from before how how I ignored this, if you like, for nearly 50 years.
Rachel Oliver: And and got away with it and, basically, I got away with it not not bothering and all of a sudden, because it affects my life and how I live it and how society views me I had to be.
Rachel Oliver: crushed into it and to understand how it works and where we fit in it so i'm and of course now i'm a big advocate for not only the Trans part the big T but i'm also a big advocate for every other every other aspect every single one of them, because we're all on this diversity.
Rachel Oliver: You know mogul down if you're high we're we're on it together and we're all fighting the same battle in different ways, but we're all we're all fighting the same issues.
Rachel Oliver: And I think we that's why it's important that we stay together and look after each other and and support each other, you know so i'm very happy to stand for lesbian.
Rachel Oliver: Women and you know gay men and bisexual people and non binary people I think non binary people, especially get a really bad do.
Rachel Oliver: and
Rachel Oliver: As you said before about you know there's.
Rachel Oliver: there's no legal definition on passports actually there is there are a couple of countries around the world, one of our style, by the way, where you can have an x.
Joanne Lockwood: On your passport and the US states in the US, now I didn't move to and.
Joanne Lockwood: Denmark, Germany, now have a third gender as well, so there are a few in.
Rachel Oliver: A few and the growing, and I think Ireland, of all places, I think they've.
Rachel Oliver: Ever and they've got it and rightly or wrongly, having an x Now let me just tell you about an x, which is one of the one of the worries because I worked in the Middle East, before years and.
Rachel Oliver: I worked in Saudi in Abu Dhabi and around that region back in the 80s, I wasn't transgender I wasn't gay I wasn't gay man, by the way, and I I I lived out the, you know as a hetero male no problem whatsoever, but I understand.
Rachel Oliver: What it's like to live in that society it's tough it's tough if you're not it's a tough society if you're not.
Rachel Oliver: heterosexual and.
Rachel Oliver: And you know our job it's a tough society to live in and one of the big worries I have about an x on a passport, and this has got to be dealt with at some stage in future, but one of the big ways of an x is it's identification it's an identification of somebody.
Rachel Oliver: Gender status or actually non gender status, if you like, and we're gonna have to educate some stage this might not be our this might not be our.
Rachel Oliver: generation that that can do this, it might be the next generation that are going to be dealing with this, and I suspect that it is they're going to have to educate people places like Abu Dhabi and Saudi Arabia and Qatar and all those.
Rachel Oliver: Westernized.
Rachel Oliver: bought our countries.
Rachel Oliver: Who are firmly against being gay or lesbian or transgender, for that matter, and who would who would take a passport, with an x on it and actually draw that person now.
Rachel Oliver: On the basis that that's that's identified them as something different now i've traveled to Qatar as a trans woman i've traveled through Qatar.
Rachel Oliver: And I ate was one of the most frightening experiences i've ever had because are all the time, even though I traveled on a female passport i'm present entirely female.
Rachel Oliver: It worried me that whilst I was on the territory that I could there might be some way they can identify and then i'm going to get white town and.
Rachel Oliver: One of the places I would love to go back because I lived there and I loved it was Abu Dhabi and Dubai I live there for a few years and I absolutely loved it and I want to go back certainly to Dubai because it's gone into a city and massive city now a beautiful city and.
Rachel Oliver: i'm desperate to go on a weekend, or you know longer and spend some time there but it's impossible to do can't do it.
Rachel Oliver: i've had to sort of you know, come to the fact that is not something i'm it's not on my bucket list anymore it's hard to be crossed off.
Rachel Oliver: Which is a sad it's very sad because you know, I do have memories there and I, I do have places that mean a lot to me or certainly to places there and.
Rachel Oliver: and Saudi Arabia is the same, although Saudi Arabia is still very much a clause country and I can't see opening up not in my lifetime probably not in the next generations lifetime either, but.
Rachel Oliver: I think we do, I have to be concerned about a marker and you know.
Joanne Lockwood: And yeah I agree that it is signpost more and certainly in countries where LGBT Q plus acceptance isn't isn't the same as everyone else in the world, and I mean i've a conscious as a trans woman as well yeah I I flew to Melbourne last 2019 I think it was.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's where do you go do you go by China.
Joanne Lockwood: Do you go via ever fly emirates via Dubai and I decide I to decide that Hong Kong I felt was my least worst option as being a kind of a lot less likely to for me to have a problem as a trans woman flying.
Joanne Lockwood: I didn't want to fly emirates I didn't want to, of course, we do by people told me, I was probably be okay wouldn't be an issue.
Joanne Lockwood: But I didn't want to take that chance and i've had off of office for speaking in in in Russia, and I again I was I didn't get it in by I wasn't too much, but I said to them and I actually went to tab to Kiev.
Joanne Lockwood: Ukraine, and I was a bit nervous about going there, but as it turned out care was very, very cosmopolitan no one noticed me.
Joanne Lockwood: I think, because certain countries aren't hyper focused on trans people that they don't even see you and it's maybe maybe we're more noticeable.
Joanne Lockwood: In countries like the US and the UK and other trans people are more open yeah but yeah I had no no trouble in Kiev and talent and other countries around the world.
Joanne Lockwood: But yeah i'm still a bit nervous, I was nervous when I went to Tel Aviv, because you hear these stories about the Israeli secret service and.
Joanne Lockwood: Something but I had no trouble going into the country, I had no trouble being at the Wailing Wall on the right hand side, having previously 20 years earlier, been on the left hand side.
Joanne Lockwood: Where am I sure, am I, my skirt and without passing and I did, and when I accepted the country I know people often get very interrogated leaving out of Tel Aviv.
Joanne Lockwood: But the security kind of looked at me asked me a couple of questions and just waved me on maybe I was too difficult I don't have to.
Joanne Lockwood: say about my experience so far has been.
Joanne Lockwood: Positive their countries i've traveled to, but I also have a conscious about the fact that a lot of the world is now inaccessible to me, as I was born in Singapore.
Joanne Lockwood: yeah i've been back there once 20 odd years ago, but I know that I probably wouldn't want to go back to Singapore, again, I certainly couldn't go back to Malaysia.
Joanne Lockwood: Where I lived with my my family when I thought I was born so i'm very conscious about I can't put my trans in this away, but I know there's some people who identify maybe as gay or lesbian that have, as I said, they feel.
Joanne Lockwood: They can pepper gayness away in their trunk do their job and come home.
Joanne Lockwood: They may not be able to share their their hotel room with their partner, they may not be able to do other things have been about talk about their relationship they gotta be careful about the social media postings, but they can sometimes function if they want to.
Joanne Lockwood: Because you're not.
Joanne Lockwood: As necessarily visible, but as trans people we we carry ourselves where we go with is we are, we are us and we're worried about getting called getting arrested gang and prison getting.
Joanne Lockwood: All those are things that could happen to us lead in a toilet in America or something.
yeah.
Rachel Oliver: that's exactly right and and.
Rachel Oliver: I asked traveled.
Rachel Oliver: during transition I have traveled I traveled extensively back and forth between here and Australia and Perth and Sydney and here two or three times during my initial transition period, and I did go through.
Rachel Oliver: Singapore, with some trepidation, although it boiled down to it now, and it will do, because I have children input and I would.
Rachel Oliver: Happily traveled to Singapore, happily, I came back to Singapore, when I came back to live here.
Rachel Oliver: And I do it again, with no problem whatsoever, I felt very and I stayed over in Singapore as well, I felt very comfortable I didn't feel threatened.
Rachel Oliver: Although I have read things online that the world is you know it's shrunken down now like, as you say shrunken down to two blowing now or corridors, if I want to go, and I do consider Australia, by the way, is home.
Rachel Oliver: I live here in the UK, but I don't recognize UK is my home, my home is a star and.
Rachel Oliver: I always think i'm always thinking about the code is to get back so one of the corridors is, of course, as you've identified is Hong Hong Kong and another one is Singapore and.
Rachel Oliver: I wouldn't go to Qatar, but the other one that worries me tensely and is the is the way from across to America and Merck and.
Rachel Oliver: Across the States and then Hawaii and then on to Singapore, there are the, especially the southern States of America definitely definitely a to be avoided, I think.
Rachel Oliver: And I don't think that a lot of CES people have it, I identified this in one of my radio programs actually Earlier this year I did a spoof program about travel to UK so travel to you and.
Rachel Oliver: Where I pretended I was traveling to you and the big laugh, we had a ball doing this, one I pretended that we were going to you and I visited each country, but why why I did it that way was, I wanted to get across to trans.
Rachel Oliver: People who were interested in the Trans experience, who who might not understand us to well or even our allies, I wanted to get across to them that the world was natural and how tight, it was and that we even in our own.
Rachel Oliver: You opinion area, we had to be the workplace is that we're not viable to go to forums are not safe, and so I didn't go to Paul and and I just identified a couple of issues, then going on in portland which would got worse, by the way.
Rachel Oliver: And then I hopped all the down into Europe and Germany and.
Rachel Oliver: and presented the program is or was traveling through, and it was brilliant I loved it, we had a ball, making it was a big laugh and.
Rachel Oliver: And, and then we came back to La or Ireland and that allows me to express just how forward thinking, Ireland has become.
Rachel Oliver: And how it, you know what what it's only 100 miles away from the cloud I don't know 500 miles, maybe.
Rachel Oliver: And the difference in sinking between one country and another that that speaks the same language and essentially we're essentially the same people and and it was just a great illustration of.
Rachel Oliver: of how the world is shrunken down falls and how frightening that is for people I like a zoo and especially you, because I know I have sent you you on Facebook and what you do on Facebook and how you travel and I did see that you went to Kiev.
Rachel Oliver: and
Rachel Oliver: Have a lovely to go there after good care.
Rachel Oliver: But you've traveled and I thought oh my God that's a bit risky, but then I thought well hey is it is it risky and let's see you know, obviously it's been Okay, for you and but I mean holidays I wouldn't just certain places, I wouldn't holiday in.
Rachel Oliver: outside of the UK I would think twice about going to certain places in Europe.
Rachel Oliver: Although Malta, I believe motors brilliant.
Rachel Oliver: Plus I love mall to anyway so.
Rachel Oliver: I will world is pretty normal.
Joanne Lockwood: i've had no problems in what with the traditional Western Europe so.
Joanne Lockwood: Italy, Germany, Spain, Portugal, belly eric's Canary Islands, Amsterdam the Netherlands i've had no problems and there's a tool.
Joanne Lockwood: i've traveled extensively before to Sweden, Finland and I wouldn't perceive I would have a problem of those countries if I went back there now.
Joanne Lockwood: So yeah I think it's just the further east you go you've just got to be more cautious and I think the mentor I would have is don't carry your flag with you, so if you can go there as a transparency and go there was a gay person.
Joanne Lockwood: But it's around not.
Joanne Lockwood: Yet as soon as they would describe it not promoted the gay agenda of the Trans whatever that whatever that K agenda might be but it's not propagating.
Joanne Lockwood: conversation conversations around being transmitted if you just want to go there and be you have a holiday.
Joanne Lockwood: I see that many places you'll actually have no problem if you started waving a flag around and started promoting.
Joanne Lockwood: Trans rights in in Poland, you probably get gets short shrift if you just went there as a trans woman, you probably have a reasonable time if you're in.
Joanne Lockwood: Maybe the core towns like Gdansk or Warsaw or one of the major the major base, and if you were there other package on a in a in a corporate hotel you probably again have.
Joanne Lockwood: A reasonably seamless experience, I think the panic really is where you may be straight off of the path into activism into promotion or into.
Joanne Lockwood: Public signs of effects or maybe if you are same sex couple holding hands, then you're going to have issues if I wife and I kept two foot apart and we're just friends, again I suspect we'd be fine most of these countries.
Joanne Lockwood: yeah so yeah it's just recognizing.
Joanne Lockwood: We have double think about how we're safe and but The thing is, we I don't know about you, but every time I go to a toilet motorway service station.
Joanne Lockwood: You walk into this is like a sugarcane is that you walk in you go right you go left to go and you've got no idea what's behind.
Joanne Lockwood: Often it's about software to cure 50 women place for the beta for the cubicle at, but you kind of something in this zone, we feel very vulnerable, looking around over your shoulder go.
Joanne Lockwood: I feel very uncomfortable they are very people's eyes are on me and I feel so uncomfortable I can't wait to pee and get out again.
Joanne Lockwood: yeah and I did if you felt the same that that.
Joanne Lockwood: there's a very high anxiety places where you just you just feel kind of under threat, even though it's perceived or real I don't know but I often I often struggle with a specific environment.
Rachel Oliver: um yeah I don't get it acutely but I get what we call imposter syndrome.
Rachel Oliver: i've had a couple of times and and.
Rachel Oliver: You know I felt a couple of times i've i've never felt threatened anywhere but I have felt, I want to get in and I want to get out fast.
Rachel Oliver: Only a couple of times.
Rachel Oliver: i've got one memorable one well and.
Rachel Oliver: And it was in the nightclub it's about two years ago, it was in Manchester actually and there was a big queue of women and and I got stuck in this queue and it was just the best.
Rachel Oliver: It was you know we ended up because we were all waiting to do their thing, and you know the conversation was just just Seville conversation, not about me being trans because nobody knew, but you know it was.
Rachel Oliver: Bad it was actually more about my age, because all everybody else around me was like in their 20s, and there I am this old woman.
Rachel Oliver: And I was getting propels forward by some women like you go next you got are you are, you are I tell you Okay, and I know I thought, well, I am actually but yeah and.
Rachel Oliver: What I want, I didn't know they're funny story I didn't notice that some of them were going in in pairs and that's what women do some women going, you know some women going to the toilet in pairs friends do, and I was Dreading it, I thought oh my God I hope nobody comes me.
Rachel Oliver: Because I just don't know what to do in that situation, but it just didn't it didn't make me laugh at the time but um but yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Thank you, I, like you, and quite.
Joanne Lockwood: An ample lady so.
Joanne Lockwood: Getting to people are trying to keep it going i'm in there it's not like we weren't fit trust me we're not going to fit.
well.
Rachel Oliver: I think you like that I think that's why I was safe because there's only me.
Rachel Oliver: there's definitely all in the able to get in some of these cubicles I mean, I think we should stand up for women's rights here and say what you need to make.
Rachel Oliver: But when you look at a man's too, because when you look at a female cubicle they're not saying the dimensions are not.
Rachel Oliver: Now cubicles are built for men big men were big muscles ladies, to me, too, because I made for petite women.
Rachel Oliver: You know, to do their thing and hang the handbag on the back of the door and that's all the fit for, and I think, so we need to stand up for maybe we can do that and say well let's have some a changing dimensions, please you know.
Joanne Lockwood: toys, please.
Joanne Lockwood: what's your handbag he coat your scarf and all the other things you're taking there with you.
Joanne Lockwood: And then the hooks not there you go try and balance everything and then the door, the door doesn't work it's like.
Joanne Lockwood: it's all.
Rachel Oliver: About that to where you have to stick your foot in you have to stick your foot out because you know that door is going to come bashing on to your for any second now.
Rachel Oliver: And because people have a tendency is you know, to push first and then and then wait for an answer, and you know.
Rachel Oliver: Somebody actually put that online a couple days ago, what do you do, was it wasn't a trans person, it was a female What do you do when you're in a cubicle and it.
Rachel Oliver: doesn't work, how do you help people do you sing or whatever, and I wrote to them, and I said you just say when it's put sticky I go and when it's partially just say it's taken and they'll soon goal.
Rachel Oliver: and
Joanne Lockwood: Shall.
Joanne Lockwood: We wait.
Rachel Oliver: We have given some friendly advice to another lady who, who has to negotiate the the toilet system in this country.
Joanne Lockwood: it's been an absolute blast own.
Joanne Lockwood: I can't believe we've been nattering away now for over an hour over now we'd be not doing.
Joanne Lockwood: Well, absolutely Thank you so much for your insights and your your straight talking ozzy.
Joanne Lockwood: me northern straightness it's been fantastic Thank you so much, and.
Joanne Lockwood: How can people get in contact with if they want to get in contact.
Rachel Oliver: And well you.
Joanne Lockwood: Know Facebook, or just or just Google you.
Rachel Oliver: I am on Facebook i'm awfully on Facebook as Rachel Oliver and you'll see my happy smiling face when I when I did first dates last year, and also, I did steps packed lunches well.
Rachel Oliver: couple of episodes of that and and I recently did a course in TV presenting so i'm hoping to pick some work of actually on because I do voiceover work for my station.
Rachel Oliver: and have done a couple of specials for them so i'm hoping to pick stuff up that way, but you can get me on Facebook easily you'll easily find me.
Rachel Oliver: and
Rachel Oliver: If you want to listen to my show you can go on.
Rachel Oliver: triple w dot sondra radio.com.
Rachel Oliver: And you can it's very easy to find and there's once you're on the they'll tell you where to go or, if you want to listen to my past performances not podcasts and there's about 2324 of them at the moment.
Rachel Oliver: On nick's cloud and it's free to listen to a mix cloud just type in Rachel Oliver and you'll get all my shows.
Rachel Oliver: and
Joanne Lockwood: So, just to clarify Sunday radios so n D r.
Joanne Lockwood: radio.com so amp D ra di o.com and.
Joanne Lockwood: They can listen to your show there yeah.
Rachel Oliver: yeah they can listen to all the output of Sunday radio, including mine there's a little section for ritual Oliver.
Rachel Oliver: And and podcasts and the day after my show is released on radio on Sunday, it goes automatically uploaded onto mix cloud podcasts and it's the in perpetuity.
Rachel Oliver: So you can go and listen to honestly the subjects are covered are met, I just did it conspiracy show last week, actually, it was quite an interesting thing and there's lots of humor and and yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: i'm on there now i'm on there now I found on the radio and I found as a menu option called our presenters I found you on there and i'm now looking at your bio.
Joanne Lockwood: The gorgeous photo of you with a short sm seven be microphone stuck in front of your face, and we are absolutely listed there, so I can see that absolute fantastic so people can certainly tune in and find out more that's fun that's awesome.
Rachel Oliver: yeah it's very entertaining i'm sure you're this Oh, by the way, I have a northern pete policy which is very important to me, so you can actually listen to 22 hours of me crackling on like to buy watch and but you'll never hear the same music twice.
Joanne Lockwood: Excellent excellent so unlike unlike my playlist playlist I have the same artists on repeat often, so I do like my earworms to.
Joanne Lockwood: loving, so thank you anyway, so thank you so much it's been a joy and a pleasure to have this conversation with you and.
Joanne Lockwood: and also a huge Thank you to the listeners, who are you've listened this far, thank you for tuning in please do subscribe to keep updates on future episodes of the inclusion bites podcast that, be it yes.
Joanne Lockwood: Tell your friends and your colleagues, please share, I have a number of other exciting guests lined up i'm sure you'll be also inspired by.
Joanne Lockwood: Over the next few weeks and months, and also remember if you'd like to be a guest, and please let me know.
Joanne Lockwood: And I always welcome feedback and suggestions and how I can improve the show to Jo dot lockwood a sea change happen Dakota UK so Finally, my name is joann lockwood it's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast mood today catch you next time bye.