Joanne Lockwood: Hello everyone my name is Joanne lockwood and I am your host for the inclusion bytes podcast in this series I have interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation around the subject of inclusion belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. Like to join me in the future then please do drop me a line to Jo dot lockwood a sea changee happen dot code uk as s wly changeappman dot co dot u k you can catch up with all of the previous shows on itunes spotify and the usual places so plug in your headphones grab a caf and let's keep going. Today is episode 50 with the title learning to talk to listen and to learn and I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by ian chapman ian describes himself as someone who is just a generally helpful kind and decent person and when I asked ian to describe his superpower. He said it is being a connector man if you ask ian to put you in touch with someone. He generally knows them hello again. Welcome to the show.
Iain Chapman: Ah, good morning Joanne good morning everybody ah lovely to join you really delighted I'm on number fifty. Um I like to think that's a bit special but congratulations on the forty nine previously.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I think it is yes I think it is I think I think you have the honor of being the half centuryy and you we could talk about your lover cricket as well in a minute if you wish so that we've got the half century though. Um, so ian when we're talking earlier.
Iain Chapman: Absolutely absolutely.
Joanne Lockwood: You mentioned 1 of your mantresses learning to talk listening to learn what does that mean to you.
Iain Chapman: Well to me so I'll just give you a little bit of bit of background for your listeners. So I'm a fifty four year old I'm a heterosexual male I'm married to my wife sally I've got no children I live in. Ah. Barnsley in South yorkshire um, and I've got a dog so I um have very much come from a background of 2 loving parents who've supported me throughout my life. Um, and. Um, I would say that I don't necessarily fit into any particular um diversity group. You know quite often. we talk about diversity and we talk about you know kind of like ethnicity or disability or um, whoever whatever whatever background um I am just me I just like to be just me. Um, and I think that's 1 of the things that I would love everybody to be able to just be them and I think that's the most important thing. So um, so that's just a little bit about background about me I've I've come from um, a ah, an upbringing where I've been quite blessed to be surrounded by quite a lot of different people. Um, and my my current role. Um i'm. Absolutely surrounded by some amazing people. Amazing colleagues who've literally given me the opportunity to learn to um to develop. Yeah, he's 1 of these things as ah, a white middle class chap in his fifty s you. You hope that you turn into something decent in life as you go through life. Well I think the people that are around me are turning me into an even better person. Um than I probably was a few years ago just by educating you know, listening talking understanding. Supporting connecting? Um so I'm I ah feel like I'm in a really good place in life at the moment. Um, but it hasn't always been that way. Um, which is for me part of the reason why I was. Happy to come and and and and jump aboard and have a conversation because you know ah I ah feel. It's really important in in many respects for whoever's listening that you know life's not a kid in in the words of the.
Iain Chapman: The great ronan keating life is a roller coaster and you've just got to ride it type of thing you know and and you never know what's quite round the corner. So um, so yeah, so that's so that's so that's me I'm a massive sports fan and I've been ever since the age of. 13 I think it was it went to my first football match and ever since then I've been traveling all over the country watching football and not just not just england but scotland and wales and you know. if if I go on Holiday I love holidays I'm a massive traveler and 1 of the things that always seems to happen is we turn up in a city somewhere in the world and the first thing that I look for is a football ground so I'm almost obsessed by it. Um, but at the same time that's. Had its own challenges you know from ah being the stereotypical young man growing up in the eighty s you know going to football to the bloke in his fifty s ah surrounded by some lovely people some great friends but you. You kind of like you look at it slightly differently at this age. You know you don't get so emotionally involved in it. You tend to spend more time listening to those around you and those around you opinions and so what I do during the day where i'm. Sharing and listening and supporting and all those things I then take into my football life and I could be stood in a ah pub pre-match listening to some you know opinions that if that was at work I would be challenging those opinions or if it was. People that I've known for a while I would probably ask why they are saying those things you know in some respects whereas if you're in a pub surround about people that you don't necessarily know you've got to pick and choose your um conversations. They've got to be very careful in my in my. My knowledge you know a few years ago I'd probably been a little bit more. Um, yeah I I be able to I would have probably been a little less careful I'll put it that way. Um, but now I'm I'm far more sensible. My wife keeps saying to me dunk. Don't get into an argument. Don't get into a conversation and she's absolutely right? So that's ah, just a little bit about my background.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes I but that's ah, a great intro ian and I feel like I've got to know you a whole lot better with the last ah couple of Minutes. So as you said you're you're kind of this stereotypical early fifty s white male. Kind of relatively privileged life by your own admission. Stable family background in your childhood. A reasonably stable. Well you sound like you have a fantastic life with your wife and your dog now and and a great hobby when I speak to other people who are. But similar to yourself in terms of age and and and gender and and ethnicity. There's a lot of fear about getting involved in conversations around inclusion and diversity is it almost like this as a white person what you know as a male what you know about being inclusive you almost feel like you're. Um, not qualified to to join in the conversation. So how how do you cope with that.
Iain Chapman: Um I have to say to start with um ah so if you go right? The way back I was I was I was talking about it to my mom. So my mom's in her 80 s um, well no, she's actually eighty on the thirtieth of December. And I was talking about it to my mom because 1 of my very first memories in life as a I'd probably been 3 or 4 years old um was ah my mom and dad did a lot of voluntary work. They. Supported charities. My dad was a preacher in the methodist church a local preacher for 56 years um of his life. You know giving so much time which is where I think I got a lot of my hopefully good qualities from so when I was ah a tiny lad. Um. 1 day a week we used to have a young disabled man that used to come to our house and have tea and as you can imagine as a toddler we're not a toddler going you know 3 4 years old sat at the dinner table with mom telling you what you've got to have for tea sat next to somebody who you haven't got a clue who they are and they're in a wheelchair and they're being spoonf fed and they weren't part of my family and I was talking to my mom about it as I said and I ah i. Ah, found it fascinating that almost 50 years later I'm learning still about what happened in in my childhood. Um, and um, ah it was really interesting because this mom and dad. As I said did lots of voluntary work and 1 of the charities that he supported back then was what was called the spastic society who are now scope and it very much leads on to um, a conversation about language because if you and I will will probably. Touch on this in a little bit if that's okay, but if nowadays if you used the word spastic. You know most of us would put a head in our hands and be absolutely horrified if you had heard that word whereas back then that was that was the name of the charity. And then I I think the charity recognized that it wasn't a name that was yeah cut like doing them any well oh I was about say doing them any favors I don't think it was that I think it was just you know language has changed and things like that so they changed the the charity scope. Um.
Iain Chapman: So right? from an early stage I was so you know polite mixing with um people I didn't know and understanding even though I wasn't necessarily understanding it at the time but it was it. You know there was um. Um, this white young you know 4 year old moving into life with disabled people coming into our house and then 1 of the next memories was my mom um was a volunteer for the samaritans. So back in the day where you had a phone that was at the bottom of the stairs and it actually had numbers in it and you know and you you got like ah a round for ah for all the young people out there who've just got a mobile phone that sits in your pocket. Ah, you know it used to have ah at ah, a um type. A handle and everything and my mum used to sit on the bottom of the stairs for hours at a time talking to strangers and I used to walk into the house thinking who's my mom talking to on the phone and I never never understood and and and this was 7 1017 years old and I genuinely didn't understand and then once. I became old enough then my mom explained to me that she was a volunteer for the samaritans helping people who were in crisis and helping people who were at tipping point in their life and just little things like this that were huge things I think has. Like molded me into the person that I hope that I am at the moment. So so where you talk about me being you know from ah ah you know as I would say a privileged background a white male you know and a lot of people can like. Find it very difficult to get into the conversation but I probably find it difficult sometimes to get into the conversation as well because I'm always worried that I'm offending somebody when I um I was um I'll rephrase that I'm not so worried anymore I was worried and I was worried that I might be saying the wrong thing or I might not have the knowledge or you know did I have the ah you know the experience to being that in that conversation. But then when you actually look back and you think well actually yes because do you do you. You really have to have um you know that level of education to be able to join a conversation. No because we can all join a conversation and and learn. Um and the probably the biggest influence in my life has always been my dad. Um.
Iain Chapman: But dad was an incredibly intelligent map and my dad um basically used to say to me, you know if you learn 1 thing every single day of your life. You will be an incredibly um, knowledgeable person and that's something that I tried to do um you know diversity inclusion is ah. Part of that and it's been a huge part of my life over the last especially the last five years. So yes I did.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I was I mean we the title of this episode is talk listen and learn and it is so right? we we. We've not met everybody in the world and on the basis that everybody is a unique individual. We can't hope to know everybody but what we can do is develop a level of emotional intelligence a level of cultural awareness and cultural intelligence a bit have conversations with different people and ah not be afraid and I think that's the key there is is being confident enough to listen to somebody. Understand what makes them happy and what makes them sad. That's why I often say when I'm training is if if you know what makes me Happy. You know what makes me sad I'd like to think you'll just talk about things that make me happy and not ah, not try make things that make me sad I think if you just boil it down to that when you're communicating then it's a very easy way to start conversations and. And get just get to know people and I always often say is that sit down have a coffee even if that's a zoom coffee or a chat and just just ask someone what makes them tick. You know what makes you special. What's what what your body are you proud of in life and sometimes people will share. Yeah i. You go beyond that superficial. How do you look? you know on the outside you look like a a white man on the inside. You've got this, you're like the tardis you've got so much depth of personality lived experience things that make you happy and sad and just by stereotyping you and judging you by the way you look.
Iain Chapman: 1
Joanne Lockwood: Doesn't uncover any of that that that hidden knowledge you have and I think that's the the powerful lesson that I've learned over probably a similarsat timeframe 5 or 6 years about being immersing myself into this the the dni space and I could see yeah for for. But but when I looked at what you wrote before the show about. Work you're doing with your organization in terms of organizing communications and webinars and sessions and awareness to five ten thousand people across your organization. All of those nuggets you're you're working on. Not only enrich the the lives of of the staff and colleagues. But also yourself I'm presumably. You must be enriching yourself through organizing that and learning about that in your own way.
Iain Chapman: Absolutely it's um, for me it the whole lockdown experience the whole working from home experience for all of our colleagues. Um, it's given us a new opportunity. It's brought everybody I think a lot closer together I think it's it's given certainly aon where I work. Um, it's it's made us look at things how we do things slightly differently as most employers I will guess. And most employees I would guess we've all had to do things slightly differently. Um, and 1 thing that we um recognized was that I'm I'm Mr. Sociable I walk into any of our offices and generally I'll find somebody that I know. I can go and have a chat with and I could sit next to be it from bristol all the way up to glasgow but um, obviously most of the conversations in my local office which was leeds um would happen in a social zone in a kitchen. You know in? Ah, ah you know a coffee shop at lunchtime or a pub or playing sport or all all the all the social things you know, not necessarily when you're sat at your desk doing your job. It was the bits the walking down the corridor or the getting in the lift and saying up morning you're right? Yeah I'm fine. Thank you. So when we went into the lockdown position. We thought how do we connect all these people that are missing those conversations and it was my colleague who you know we sat down and and came up with. This idea and we we decided to call it connecting colleagues speaker series and it gave us an opportunity to do as we said connect colleagues and listen to somebody with a all. Ah so all of the themes. Um, had like ah an inclusion theme you know because we all needed a bit of you know a bit of inclusion at that point you know in in in May Twenty Twenty you know we we were just coming out of ah of you know? oh we were still in a lock ground situation and we just felt that we could do this thing so so our very first speaker. Um, had just returned from shared parental leave and um so we advertised this thing and for some reason 1 hundred and 30 odd colleagues joined us which which was like wow 1 hundred and 30 people joined us.
Iain Chapman: Um, and listened and learn about this colleague's background this colleague's ethnicity his role. Um, and then how it had been for him and his partner sharing the first twelve months of their newborn baby. And it was quite inspiring and so we then did another and we did another and we did another and this has just evolved and it continues continues to evolve and for me, it's it's given not only colleagues the opportunity to learn. To listen to open up what you just said there about a conversation. Anybody can have a conversation. It's having the confidence to have that conversation. It's having the confidence to approach somebody. It's having the confidence to you know, ask that question. Somebody that you know that you think oh can know they feel offended if I ask them a question you know should I be asking them the question. So the whole connecting colleagues thing was getting colleagues of any level whoever they may be. we've had. the ceo We've had um, graduates we've had um any any level any background. You know any gender we've had all sorts of people. Um from scotland all the way down to bristol. You know we've had overseas colleagues joining us and and it's incredible. What you can learn after thirty one sessions of colleagues um talking about things like sexism racism domestic abuse. Um menopause. Um, autism um, you know through to positivity you know, lockdown experience. You know your role you know and I think it's made so many people more aware. It's certainly made me more aware. What's going on in society and that was the whole point was that if we've got colleagues who you know 1 of the recent ones we had 2 colleagues talking about their experience of going through Menopause and it's 1 of those taboo subjects that doesn't get talked about. You know doesn't get talked about work. You know if somebody is going through Menopause they might confide in a friend or colleague or they might tell the line manager some don't whereas we had this conversation we had over 3 hundred people join the conversation and listen.
Iain Chapman: To these colleagues sharing their experiences and it's like wow you know the the brave they're honest, they're open but it's just Everyday life and and but hopefully we're talking about Everyday life and we're inspiring others to talk about Everyday life and then on the back of it. Then hoping that those people that have joined might feel able to open up be themselves you know and not hide something we we talk about being your authentic self coming to work and being your authentic self. You shouldn't have to leave something in the car park. Or at home when you come to work you know and that can be anything that can be your you know your your sexual orientation. You know you might have mental health condition. You know it could be your race. It could be. You know that you know you're struggling. With something going on at home. It could be all sorts of things. But ah, most people tend to hide these things and and we're very much well don't you don't have to hide them. There'll always be somebody to talk and listen to and we're trying to bring that out of people.
Joanne Lockwood: I I like yeah I like to encourage organizations to do exactly as as you're doing in the organization is to have these this program of events and I certainly don't encourage anyone to do this kind of performative hashtag following program is something you doing everything around. Ah, and lgpd history month or so just because it is that month it's about this continual program. Not necessarily just a line to characteristics. But it's around lived experience. You say menopause is very intersectional. It covers whole whole so different sector of women and their experiences. And you say it has been something that has been oppressed in the workplace and almost culturally oppressed as well. Um, coming living working in a a many male background where men as ah women want to feel that we are kind of equal to men and Meoppause is 1 of those things that. Potentially knocks our confidence and you know as you as you're aware things like brain fog things like anxiety that creep in itching heat, etc, Etc. There's a whole whole subculture and language around menopause that many people just aren't comfortable talking about because it's been that that taboo subject I think it's really really powerful.
Iain Chapman: Tis.
Joanne Lockwood: But organizations such as yours normalize the conversation to you're having this conversation around a subject you you may be only partially haveve heard of and then you're hearing people talking openly around it and it gives you that permission to Learn. It gives you that permission to be able to have that conversation yourself and ask questions and be more aware. And I was talking to us a colleague the other day a friend the other day about normalizing conversations around Menopause ah, in 1 way it benefits the workplace but without being flippant about it. It also helps people's marriages and people's personal lives because we're not talking about this. In the home environment either where the cause of many breakdowns and many stresses in marriages are around perimenoppause and Meno um and Menopause times. Ah, but by bringing this into the workplace. We're actually helping people in their personal lives as Well. I think it's so powerful and I think what you're what you're doing. There is is admirable. Do you do you measure the effectiveness I mean I appreciate. This is not around isn't It's not about measurement but can you see Positivity developing.
Iain Chapman: Yeah, you can you can I mean the I mean the all of the sessions that we've done I think I think we've had a combined audience so far of around 7 and a half thousand live. Yeah. Viewers listeners. Whatever you like to call it and then we record all the sessions and um, most of the sessions. So I'll give you the the example with the Menopas session. So um, as with most of your you know your zooms or your Webex's or your teams you know your. Your platforms that you use we have a chat box at the bottom right? So the menopause session created a huge amount of conversation. Huge amount of conversation by colleagues that were listening and colleagues felt that. They wanted to join the conversation in the chat box and um, 1 thing that that I always do with the conversations is I always copy the chat box paste it onto a document. Just to make sure that if there is any questions that we've missed throughout the conversation I feel that it's really important to if somebody's taken the time during that conversation to actually ask a question and as as we all know a a presentation a chat. It goes so quickly. And it's very difficult to make sure that we've actually gone back to everybody so I always do this just to make sure that if there is somebody that we've missed. We can go back to them or 1 of the speakers will go back to them or we'll connect them with somebody. Um and on the Menopause session. Ah, copied it and pasted it onto a word document and it was eleven and a half pages long the chat box just copied onto a word document which just shows the you know the but the power of the conversation and. Um, you know 1 of the things that you know at aon we were hugely supported I think as colleagues we're we're very fortunate. We're hugely supported. You know the the organization give us lots of um. You know, different. Um, you know benefits and support tools and you know we've got mental health first aiders and we've got lots and lots of great things that that we can.
Iain Chapman: Pass on to colleagues on these sessions you know because not everybody's 1 hundred percent aware that we've got all of these brilliant. Um, you know, private medical insurance or an employee assistance program and things like that. So we've got all these things but often people don't recognize that we've got all these things. So. Um, that particular session we had a colleague from our hr team who joined the session as well and spoke about all the benefits that were available so what started as a you know somebody suggesting it would be quite nice if we talked about Menopause. You know to me and I was like yeah, let's go for it and in the end it's turned into a huge conversation a couple of um you know there's follow-ups going on. There will be um, um. Various different things. You know we've we've always had like a a guide on the menopause which is being updated and yeah, you know so there's so much positivity that comes out of just 1 conversation like that. Um, what you said about family. My. Ah, my wife sally she's going through Menopause at the moment and I didn't understand and so I'm hosting a session at work with 3 hundred plus people listening to 2 people who brave enough to have the openness and the conversation and I'm learning. Myself about what's going on in my own house that I didn't recognize I didn't understand I've not had that conversation with you know with with my wife of 16 years I'd not had that conversation. So just where you say the impact. Well the impact. Just on me as an individual's huge because now I can have that conversation I can recognize you know, um, things that my wife is going through you know and the 1 person who's most important in my life is my wife um and yet before that conversation I was slightly blinkered. And it was like up here. She is bad mood again. You know that type of typical you know, um, you know when you live with somebody for twenty odd years like reaction or I've done something wrong and it you know it's just literally what? what. You know? what's happening in in sally's life. So yeah, it's hugely important hugely important. Um, and yet you know do we do? We do anything with all of the numbers all of the um you can know I've got I've got a massive great big spreadsheet of colleagues who just keep joining this thing.
Iain Chapman: Um, because hopefully people recognize that there might be something that's going to come up that will benefit them that will help them. You know, um, 1 of the best sessions that I think that we've done was when um, the um. George floyd got murdered last year in our multicultural network. Um, you know had the platform on speaker series to talk about um, talking to kids about race and there was a you know it was a very awkward conversation that a lot of. People like myself who maybe had kids didn't really know how to have that conversation with their white child. For example, um, can earn our multicultural network people from different ethnicities different parts of the country all jumped on board and just basically helped. You know, like help them. You know people like me understand that it is all right to have that conversation and gave us resources and ideas and thoughts and tips you know and how they've had the conversation how difficult it's been for them growing up you know and then. How difficult it can be for their child to grow up. So yeah, there's a lot of positives.
Joanne Lockwood: And when I when I talk to other organizations. 1 of the challenge they have is. It's not so about much about the people who are in the room because you tend to have a there are certain people who are kind of this use the word woke they're awake they're they're awake to the issues of social injustice. Keen to learn they want to find out more and they're always receptive to to this knowledge. It's the so I often say it's the people who aren't in the room are the ones I want to talk to because they're the ones that are not engaging. So how do you is an individual maybe suggest. Trying to engage with people who are the unengaged which is I will see is the challenge.
Iain Chapman: It's it's a huge challenge I have to say you know and and I think as a personally I think um I'll put work to 1 side but in my in my my personal life. You know I've had many instances especially over the last 2 years you know since locked down you know I'm very passionate about a lot of um you know diversity issues inclusion issues. Um, and I've got some some people that you know that i've. Almost grew up with you know I've known for 2030 years you know that they just won't accept change. You know they they will not accept. They don't you know they you know they they did. They're typical banter people you know, um, many yeah, it's only a joke. Well, it isn't a joke. You know you're constantly being sexist racist homophobic you know? Well I don't mean to say yeah I said only a bit of a joke in it. Well no, it isn't a bit of a joke. Um, and you know these are these. You know there's a couple of of of people that I grew up with up here in in South yorkshire and really good friends. You know we've been friends for years and years and years and um, you know we went through a situation where. They were taking exception to um, you know the whole issue last year of you know following george floyd's death thing and um people pulling statues down and then you know things like the um, the last night of the problems. You know you're not allowed to. Sing rule britannia and things like that and they were they they were literally up in arms about it. Why on earth should we have to change. You know why you know and I was like well just take a step back and and understand and try and listen to other people's opinions. You know the reason. Um, Beyonce's song about her her brown skin I think it was something like that a song about her that she'd written about her daughter. You know they were even commenting on things like that on Facebook saying. But if I'd said this is you know me and my white skin. Ah you know I'd have been burned at the stake for it and I'm like well no, you wouldn't and then we just got into a whole debate and um, eventually I chose to walk away from the debate.
Iain Chapman: Because they weren't listening you know and they didn't want to listen to be honest I don't think they want to listen I think um and I think that's where it can be very difficult. You know there's a lot of people who do want to learn who do want to understand who are kind of culturally curious who. You know want to make themselves slightly more educated slightly more understanding, slightly better. Um in their knowledge and then you get these other people who just literally don't want to um and I think that's the biggest challenge where do you draw that line of right I'm gonna. Back off from my argument now I'm gonna I'm going to choose my battles I'm going to choose my discussions. Um and on the back of that particular incident. You know I I commented on the the fiance say I think I'm sure it was beonce. Um. You know on my 1 of my close friends. You know he he was 1 of you know the people that came on my stangto. For example, you know and I commented and literally some complete strangers were abusing me online. Um, you know, ah telling me to go and. You know, stick me head in a bucket of water and you know, um, you know how dare I question things like that and I was like well hang on a minute this person I've known him since he was 6 you know he's now in his mid forty s so I think I've got a right to comment on somebody that I've known. For however, many years um and the most disappointing thing was that the people that I'd always classed as as friends, you know and they still are friends. They didn't defend me. They didn't say well actually yet you know he's been there when. You know I've had marriage Problems. He's been there when I've needed somebody to talk to when I've Struggled. He's been there as I have for those people. Um and yet when it came to an argument about race. They were like there you know now this is our opinion. Um, and since then I've slightly removed them. You know to 1 side you know I I took myself off of social media I took myself off of whatsapp groups that they were in um because literally it wasn't making me well.
Joanne Lockwood: Oh.
Iain Chapman: You know it was giving me anxiety. It was causing me upset and and so I literally just had to remove myself. It didn't change my opinion. My opinion stayed as it was you know and if anything it just made me stronger in my beliefs and my support for other people.
Joanne Lockwood: I find it I find it very similar that it's very easy to get into a very intransient conversation where you're trying to change somebody else's view who isn't likely to change their view and there is intransigent about trying to persuade you that they're right.
Iain Chapman: You know and.
Joanne Lockwood: As you are persuaded and it becomes a very unproductive conversation which is why I I try not to discuss outcomes or opinions or beliefs I try to get involved in discussions around perspectives and why someone thinks something rather than what they think and it allows me. Therefore not to engage in the in the minute shy of the debate of the argument but trying to understand why they think that and and by having that kind of conversation I found that people often, don't know why they think something it just it just is and by using those that kind of why question. Okay I understand that you have this view of this situation. Why do you think that? Well, what's what's your view of the world then I could chip in but the reason I think it's not fair is because if we only see white people on statues. Um, um, and black and brown people and non-white people aren't represented society. How can they feel part of something they go. Well I don't want to see black people on statues. Well why not? There is much part of the community and help build the environment and if if we don't want people on statues. How about we have cultural representations instead of people. The cultural representations are far more like to survive longer than than people and times change. So yeah's I find that. If we can if we can have a conversation around a perspective and the why someone thinks something is easier but that's also tricky and and I'm with you that I've been in environments with a group of old friends I was at ah a reunion party for people I knew 40 years ago after at f school. And my view on the world has has changed completely and I was with people who who had this who has quite rightly said I haven't had it easy I wasn't denying. They hadn't had it easy. They came from a working class background. Their father was a coal miner that the mine was shut in the thatcher era they had. Poverty and and and challenges in their family as a young person and so they yeah the argument was I haven't had it easier either I'm not privileged and it's really really tricky when you're discussing privilege is to try and swap between it's not about what you've gone through. It's about what you haven't gone through. Because of the color is skin because of your ability because of your your your nearer typicalness your your able bodiness whatever it may be or your straightness or your whiteness or you you haven't gone through and that's a really tough angle to do because you're you're trying to acknowledge their struggle. And not deny them their right to fill. They've had a struggle but but introduce the concept is about what you haven't had and that's that's sometimes the real challenge when you talking about privilege is to to get people into a receptive mind where they well I'm not saying they're going to change their mind and and suddenly have an epiphany and get it. But at least try and talk to them about.
Joanne Lockwood: How to see the world in a slightly different way. So for me, it's around trying to nudge perspectives than than have disagreements on outcomes and that's that's always my my approach. But yeah, it's It's very difficult I'm like here I've I've been in situation and I end up saying I'd just got to take myself out of here this conversation um is not. No 1 Ne's gonna win. No 1 Ne's gonna feel better about this and I'm just gonna I'm just gonna burn out. So yeah, great talking to you catch you another time. It's not even agree to differ. It's just this just differ this just different I'm not creating different I'm just different.
Iain Chapman: Just exactly? yeah, just just walk away from it and and and I mean you you know you you mentioned there you know you used the word burnout you know I mean I'm a huge um, hugely passionate about mental health. You know mental health um is something that I struggle with you know I I struggled with anxiety for many many years. Um, my wife well my but ah in fact, going back to when I said about 1 of the first memories in my life. You know Ah, when I was. A toddler and my mom had agoropphobia. So for 2 years she didn't even leave the house. You know when I was born and I was growing up. Um, when growing up, you know, started to develop. Um, ah you know so right from an early age you know being. Very aware of you know can like my mum's always had this. You know the most caring person in the world but she's always had this slight nervousness about life. Um, and and her anxiety sorry her. Arophobia came back. You know I was in my thirty s and 1 day she rang me my dad was working in singapore and she she she rang me and I was like you right mum and she just burst into tears and I was like what's up should I just can't cope. So I then went from. You know my. Where I lived just down the road and went and stopped with my mom for a couple of days. Um, and for some reason the Arophobia came back on. Um and you know since then you know I think I think you know for somebody who spent so many years helping other people. You know as a Samaritan um, you know the reason that she joined the samaritans because you know 50 years ago she was struggling herself you know and it's something now in 2021 that is you know cut light. We all talk about mental health now. Which is so important which is so um, impactful Mental health doesn't discriminate. You know we talk about inclusion well mental health you know everybody has mental health. They either have good mental health or bad mental health or somewhere in the middle and um. It impacts us all in some way we all know somebody who's impacted by mental health you know, be it depression anxiety. You know you know some people wake up having a bad day and they might not realize that they're struggling. So um.
Iain Chapman: And it's something that when you know where we talked about the title of of this session. You know the talking side of things you know I'm I'm a mental health first aid and my wife's a mental health first aid are in our ah our relative jobs. Um with both people that friends family and colleagues come to. You know and we've both been trained. We're properly qualified. Um where I work we've got 1 hundred and 30 fully trained mental health First aidrs now you know which is quite incredible I think you know hugely impactful in the uk um, get and all of them ah like you know I ah don't know all of them I know a lot of them and they're incredibly inspiring people you know and you feel part of um, can I part of this this this team of people that are there for others and I thought I just so I just think and. You know the whole mental health thing when it's a very personal issue then you get things like what happened to me last year you know where with just you know I'm just you know opening a conversation and then I just get abused and then it affected me personally, you know it brought my anxiety back? um. It knocks your confidence. It makes you feel rubbish. Um, you know and the easiest thing to do is like hide away shy away and then you do not go like you know you you get your tool box out that my counselor gave me a few years ago you know it's all in my back pocket somewhere. And I got it all out and I was like right go on I have a word, be yourself think about it. You know is it that important to you that somebodybos who you've never met before has abused you online is it really that important is it worth making yourself ill why not isn't make worth making yourself ill you've got a. Brilliant brilliant things in your life. You know you're surrounded by an amazing group of friends family colleagues. Why are you letting this 1 person upset you and and.
Joanne Lockwood: They but they can. It's and that's that's the thing I mean I have my own particular characteristic and I know that when I'm putting myself in such situations. I. Ah, put a suit of armor on I'm prepared I've got a padded shoulder pat I've got my all my ankle protectors and knee protectors. So when I go out into this particular environment I know that I've got this kind of protection mechanism around me I've I'm ready unprepared but there are so many times when I I go into a place or go into the world where. I feel safe I feel relaxed I feel kind of okay and I don't put my armor on maybe just go armor light or something or just just display a little just critten lookout and that's when I can be affected because I'm not in the my mental state isn't such that I'm protecting myself. Um, just relax and that's when it can affect me the most and I often just talk about it I don't if you seen the film in June but they have the original 1 but sting I always remember I know there's a new 1 now but they have these suits and so if you try and attack somebody with this this electronic suit they have the swords bounce off. But if you use a really. Low traveling Bullet. It can penetrate and form the wavelength of the suit. So it goes straight through it. So what happens sometimes is even though I've got my suit of armor on someone can get this really penetrating bullet or stab at me that just managed to find that chink in the armor. That's when again I have this. I can have a mental health crisis and um, a loss of confidence and I'll hold it in my mind for weeks and weeks and months and months and months and I still talk about it when the the the parcel delivery person on my doorstep handed me my parcel and then said here you are buddy and I thought. Would you ever addressed my wife in that way. No, you probably wouldn't or the ice cream salesman where near where I live on the beach hand him me ice cream and go here. You are mate I thought again if my wife was buying that ice cream would you have spoken to her in that way. So there's subtle interactions you know microaggressions if you want to call them. Microaggressions.
Iain Chapman: Absolutely.
Joanne Lockwood: Always remind me that I'm not good enough I'm not passing someone's test. So and said exactly what you're saying you you got into these environments to have these conversations to just smile and enjoy life and all a sudden this 1 little thing may seem like a minor thing but this is a mate. Macro aggression. Not a microaggression. It slaps you around the face sometimes and says ha ha you're not good enough and I get what you're saying there.
Iain Chapman: Yeah, absolutely and it's it's so easy as well. It's so easy to I think especially you know when we talk about how we communicate nowadays you know, um, the art of conversation I think is dying out the art of text whatsapp. Email you know, um Webex chats you know, ah online chats facebook chats you know Twitter instagram you know, ah, it's very easy to to look at a comment or look at an email that you may get. And you read it completely wrong. You know the words are the same but you read it in the complete opposite way to the person who's writing it has said it so um or has written it. You know so there 1 thing that I was very bad at that I've I've literally changed in the last six months. So I'm quite an upbeat outgoing friendly character. You know? Ah, but i' um, make time for everybody if I can um you know it's probably 1 of my week. This is I make too much time for everybody and not enough time for myself at times. But um I would talk on all i. Would write as I talk and so I would use an exclamation Mark you know because I'm going like yeah and that's brilliant exclamation Mark and some people look at an exclamation markers. Oh he's shouting at me. Oh that's brilliant. You know or something like that and it and they read it wrong. So I've now. Completely taken. Exclamation marks out of my life and I've replaced them with smiley faces and sad faces and so so many of my emails at work I'll go smiley face or unhappy face. You know it's like oh you know it's. You know it's it's a it's just it's a shame that we couldn't have done it that way unhappy face or perhaps's really brilliant Smiley face. Um, just literally because I think some people work out like always a bit angry and I was probably really happy.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah.
Iain Chapman: So and again, it's just a different way that we communicate and we we can quite easily misinterpret things.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I I certainly so right I I actively pick up an emoji if I'm going to use an emoji. Not not what I would call it the sort of the textbook. This is what the emoji means I want to convey how I'm feeling so if I mean I don't know. I use the shruggy shoulders if I think that's a bit of a bit of a statement I have the slap slap face 1 when I use the? Ah so I'm happy to use the the kind of expressions and the emojis the laugh out loud on this. So I like to I like to pad my text and my sometimes my emails with that. Approachable, friendly reaction as you say rather than just the the dot dot dot or the the exclamation Mark or the the thump thump thump the punctu punctuation that people use say I think it's important that we we learn to recommunicate that that that humanity in our in our nonverbal communication because you're right? we. We've lost the art of rhetoric. We've lost the art of of getting into debate and discussion in a respectful way. It's it's confrontation. It's it's block. It's it's flame. It's it's target is destroying. It's judge and we don't start off end I come back to what I said earlier. It's about understanding someone's perspectives. You don't have to agree with somebody just just go. Okay I get it I understand why you're saying that. Um our answer's different but our workings out ah similar so it's just we have a different outcome and I and I think we we lose that often in text in brief communications on Twitter um, and Twitter is a.
Iain Chapman: Absolutely absolutely I've.
Joanne Lockwood: A really tough place to exist. Ah as ah as ah as a minority. There's too much going on there.
Iain Chapman: Yeah, no I agree I agree and and I'm I'm 1 of these people who you know I do tend to beat myself up if I think that um I could have upset somebody and I've always been 1 of those people. Um, and. You know I go about life like you know, kind like you all right? you are right? You are right? you right? You know, um, and and that's just me, you know that's that's my mom's side of me coming out and you know I am turning into my dad. You know what can I do about helping other people. What can I do. To do this better and what can I do to educate other people and be educated myself. Um I wanted to mention there was something that I ah saw um as a colleague over in Poland had that 1 of our officers in Poland have been doing a. Diversity and inclusion competition type of thing you know and they've been producing videos um about what diversity and inclusion means to those you know groups and 1 of them. Um came out with the line. What if we had glasses. Saw the mind and soul of our colleagues and I thought oh I like that that's really quite deep but wouldn't that be quite good if you could actually sit and have a conversation with somebody and have a pair of glasses on to see what they were thinking. You know where you talk about my superpower I've changed my superpower now I want glasses that can when I'm having a conversation with somebody I can see if they're happy if they're sad. How can I help them become happy if they are sad. You know what's going on in their mind you know if they are from a different gender ethnicity. You know disability. You know if they're sat there. You know not having the confidence to talk about it if I had my glasses on I could see that and I could help them. Um. You know? So if you could see inside a mind and if you could see inside a soul that'd be pretty damn good superpower I think so so yeah I just ah, share that with you.
Joanne Lockwood: Let let me push back on that. Let let me just push back on that is that lazy isn't that asking for your superpower to do all the heavy lift for you isn't isn't it more fun to find that out for yourself and actually put invest that time to have that conversation say. How you can't how you feeling be vulnerable yourself I'll share something about me, you share something about you and at the end of it. We're comfortable with each other that we let go and share I Love the idea of I think I always wanted a pair of attract a pair of glasses to work out if if people were attracted to me when I was younger, you can always look at someone and have like a red light if they like me or.
Iain Chapman: Absolutely yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: So if they didn't like me in a green light if they if they if they liked me to make make dating easier. But yeah as but there is there is no. There is no easy out outcome. You have to invest to get back. Don't you.
Iain Chapman: That's absolutely right? You know you've got to work hard in life. You've got to work hard to to get to know people. You know it would be so easy if you just had a pair of glasses but we know that pair of glasses is never going to happen.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Iain Chapman: You know that pair of glasses will never exist where you could just look inside. Somebody's mind so you have to. You're absolutely right? You know you've got to invest the time to actually make the effort if you want to make the effort if you want to get to know people. You know it it you know, just. as long as you do things and as long as you ask in? the right way you know in a non-judgmental way in a friendly, kind, caring way. It can be absolutely anything. Um, you know and if you're prepared to listen and learn and understand. Um. It makes us a better person and it makes the person that you've just interacted with feel a better person themselves because you you can like they feel like well actually no, that is quite kind you know and is somebody actually genuinely we we I was on an event at work. Um. Ah, couple of days ago about Dewali and 1 of our colleagues. There were four colleagues talking about Dewali and their faith. Um, and 1 of them said the most lovely thing. Um, she said if anybody in. Local office has never been to a temple before and would like to go to a temple I'm sure any of us would be happy to take you to our temple so that you could experience it and I thought how good that you know I wouldn't and I um. Um, you know I'm a kind considerate caring person but I probably wouldn't say just off the top of my head or hang on a minute. Do you know does anybody who's in leads just want to come to. You know? Ah, um, you know somewhere with me and I thought that was pretty damn special I really liked that.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Iain Chapman: Um, and I just wish there were more people left up with that kind in the world. Um, you know.
Joanne Lockwood: And I like that because I I I kind of put my cars in terms. Um I couldn't excuse myself as having any religious belief at all. Maybe kind of ah a spiritualism but not not a a faith a faith and I feel I have I have always felt uncomfortable being in a a church a christian either catholic or protestant church church I've always found but it kind of uncomfortable being in that environment because it it represents something that I don't have a faith or belief in so but I I have visited places around the world. I've yeah I've been to the the chech and the nativity in Bethle ham I've been I've I've done the full jerusalem experience and some of the and some of the religious sites there. Um, but I think because I saw it's more archaeological and not current or his ials like Moica museum. It didn't it didn't but um, ah I think that's a fantastic idea to at least for to understand about someone else's faith and belief to have that appreciation of of what islam means what buddhism means? what? what people who are hindu feels like yeah and.
Iain Chapman: Absolutely yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And and to be invited into a place of worship which is a very ah, very treasured and solid sacred place to people is is a real honor and I think that's that's a really fantastic idea. Yeah.
Iain Chapman: I think so and again you know, um, you know the the lady who said it I mean I I'm useless at guessing ages. You know she wasn't um, you know I would class her as quite a young person. Um, and I'm thinking how many. Young people do I know who would say now if anybody you know, whatever age you are whatever gender you are whatever background you've got and if you want to come with me I'll show you and I was like that is so impressive. And and again, that's on the back of our multicultural network set this session up and it's just inspiring you know and I think that's what you know makes you know I'm you know I'm inspired by people you know and and and that's what I quite often joke to people that I've got the best. Job. Ah aon where I work you know I ah do a lot presentations and I say I've got the best job at aon might not be the highest paid job and it might not be um, can have the most rewarded job. But the reward is what I get in inside. Um. You know and I'm surrounded by great people that give me that reward you know it might not be in my bank account at the end of the month and I I get paid. Yes, obviously. but but you know um you know I don't I don't have targets so I don't get.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Iain Chapman: You know, certain bonuses and you know all those things but I get so much more than a lot of people do I think.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, and people's people's worth and people's self-esteem goes far Beyond monetary value. It is around satisfaction of their own sense of self you know are you aligned with what's important to you and I think that it's far more but I mean. It's easy for us to say we're in our later life when I was in my twenty s and thirty s maybe I had a different outlook and I was definitely on that different part of my life curve where I wanted I wanted stuff and acquisition property and I think yeah when you get to your fifty s you realize that that maybe the privileges you have a lot of that stuff. And that you can now focus on what's really important in life which is around the work life balance to family the environment just being a 1 with the world and and getting remuneration from different elements other than just financial.
Iain Chapman: Absolutely absolutely. Yeah.
Iain Chapman: Yeah, definitely you know? and and you know giving back. You know? Um, ah you know part of my roles community. You know, giving people the opportunity to get involved in mentoring or volunteering or charity work. You know and and. Ah, you know when I see people come Back. You know, somebody's emailed me this morning and said oh um, and I just wanted to let you know that I've become a ah governor at the local school and I've never met this person I don't know you know I was looking back to see if I'd actually been in email. Communication with this person who just literally decided to tell me that this morning and I was like that's brilliant. You know I wake up on a Friday morning and somebody gives me that good news and I was like yeah that starts my day in a really good mood now you know because again some great person's done something great. So yeah, get some you know, um, my my 1 thing that I would just say to everybody is just you know, just take what you can out of life. Um, you know in the most positive way from whatever. Um. Angles that you can take it and and just try and but yeah, just try and enjoy it try and be Happy. Try and put those negatives to 1 side focus on the positives. You know if you need a bit of support find somebody who's going to give you that support because there are people out there that will give people support. Um. Again, take inspiration from people. You know I take inspiration from a lot of people you know from you know I've got my next my next door neighbor. Um, ah their daughter play football and she's in west virginia um, she's 21. She's playing football. In America and once or twice a week I get to watch her games live um because a dad sends me a link and I just think I wish I was that bold when I was 21 years old I wish I had the um courage to. Achieve my ambition you know and her ambition is she wanted to be a female footballer now she's off in America playing football. Um, and I'm just people like that inspire me, you know? and um, yeah, couldn't couldn't make me happier to see people. You know around me inspiring me.
Joanne Lockwood: But thank you ian the title of this episode was to talk to listen and to learn. We've talked I've listened and I've learned so for me I think the objective of this session has been Met. So it's been absolutely fantastic. Having conversation with you. We could have or we. Over the hour. We could have gone on for another hour I'm sure very easily and maybe we'll catch up for a coffee at another time. So how can people get in touch with you. Some of our listeners if they want to connect with you find out more about what you're doing. Maybe they need some inspiration for their own staff Networks or or webinar series. What's the best way to to.
Iain Chapman: Yeah, um, giant. So probably the best way is Linkedin if people are on linkedin um, you know I'm looking at Linkedin every day. Ah so it's ian chapman it's 2 eyes in with 2 eyes I a I n chapman. Um.
Joanne Lockwood: Find you.
Iain Chapman: Feel free to feel free to get in contact. Um, and I'm more than happy to Um, you know, connect with people. Um, and yeah, no, and and thank you I've really I've really enjoyed this morning. It's it's as you can probably tell I I love a chat. But I love a positive you know. Chat and I feel this has been a really positive session and hopefully if anybody who's listening feels that they can take just 1 little nugget of positivity into their day. Um, then that's a big tick for me and thank you Joanne for setting these things up.
Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic, and so a huge thank you to the listeners that if you if you kept going to the end I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for tuning in and getting this far. Um, if you're not already doing so please subscribe and keep updated on future episodes of the inclusion by its podcast. B I t yes, tell your friends tell your colleagues share the links that we have much appreciated I have a number of other exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you'll also be inspired by over the next few weeks and months and obviously I have back catalogue another forty nine episodes if you want to review and go through those as well. So also if you'd like to be a guest. I'm always looking for guests to share your stories show your passion then please let me know and if you have any feedback or suggestions on future shows and how we can improve then send it to Jo dot lockwood at Sea changeinap dot code uk my name is Joanne lockwood and it's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.