Joanne Lockwood: Hello everyone my name is Joanne Lockwood niib your host for the inclusion bytes podcast in this series I've interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation about the subject of inclusion belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive so join me the future then please do drop your line to Jo dot Lockwood @ SEE Change Happen dot co do uk that's S E E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You are able catch up with all of the previous shows on itunes spotify and the usual places so plug in the headphones grab a decaf and let's get going today is episode 55 with the title. Being on the periphery of society and I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by Khakan Qureshi BEM. Khakan describes himself as someone who is ah the founder of finding a voice a writer speaker and undercover activist when I asked cakan to describe his superpower. He said. Is being able to offer logic and reason in complex situations. Hello Khakan welcome to the show.
Khakan Qureshi: Hi Joanne. It's lovely to be here I'm really pleased to be here nice to meet you again.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes, thank you so much So Khakan tell me how have you felt on the periphery of society.
Khakan Qureshi: I think what it is for me is that even as a young child um in the playground I never quite fitted in with everybody around me you know, obviously those young boys and girls. Um and I felt different and I couldn't I couldn't put a a label to that difference. I just felt that I was different in many ways. Um, and as I grew older that difference kind of manifested itself in different ways because I wasn't masculine in a fussoppoles to fit in with the peers you know are the boys because they were quite sporty. They were playing games. Rough and tumble. Um, and I was I was in a girl you know and I didn't fit in with the gills because boys and girlsll didn't mix in the playground at that point. Um, and I stood out but with the facts that I used to like playing with the the dolls doing the girlsll's hair sort of playing singalong. Hop scotch skipping ropes that type of thing so you know but that kind of marked me out initially from from a very young age but then at the same time as I grew older the other marked difference between myself and others was that although I'm born and bred here in the midlands. And I'm of south asian heritage I didn't feel that I was muslim enough for the muslim community and I didn't necessarily feel too south asian because when I to speak and or the open punjabi um, people used to sort of ridicule the way I was speaking they said it wasn't strong enough. Or I didn't speak pronounce the words correctly and and then sort of mock me in that way too. The other aspect to that is that you know being muslim and I had an awful lot of um, hindu and sikh christian friends. Um, and I didn't quite fit in with them. Because clearly I was muslim but my muslim friends as well. Didn't feel that I fitted in with them because I seemed to show characteristics either traditional or cultural or otherwise that seemed to fit in more with sikhism or hinduism. So in that respect you know. I was always the outsider There was always something about me that marked me out as being different and hence why I I said that I was on the peripherals of society because to all intents and purposes. Not only was it about my sexual orientation and gender identity that was kind of being. Picked up on but it was also the way I presented myself culturally and within my ethnicity and you know in the community as well. I didn't quite fit in with the muslim community didn't quite fit in with the the sea or the hindus I didn't quite fit in with any sort of.
Khakan Qureshi: Community. Um, and in hindsight I Just think that made me much more of a shy introverted young boy. Um, and it kind of made me take myself into myself and a to spend a lot of time in the bedroom used to spend a lot of time reading books and an awful lot of time with um. My mom in particular and my 2 sisters so being the youngest of 7 Um I've got 2 older but 2 older sisters and four older Brothers I didn't quite fit in with them either. Um, because I didn't fit the the kind of. Stereotypical Gender roles of the males within the the family household. Um, those who would you know they'd always have time to go out. Do their things and come home late whereas I was very much um, ah suppose conditioned I suppose or brought up to be a homebird and tried to respect the the culture. Um, what we deemed as quite normal things in the household and I don't speak up about what I was feeling or what I was expressing So even in the family home There was things that mark me out as if to say well you know I'm not a kind of a practical person to go out and do things I was much more of a. Ah Thinker I used to reflect a lot and analyze a lot. Um, and again it is a case that that marked me out as different and even now in the workplace as Well. There's always something that I seem to go against the grain of what everybody expects you know, whatever their rules are. Even though I try to adhere to it sometimes I challenge and question it in other ways as Well. You know, policies and procedures. So and it always kind of marks me out as different and hence why I say I'm when they're peripheral. Um, and I think maybe a lot of people might be able to relate to that as well because on the 1 side we're trying to look for. To place ourselves in a box but on the other side we want to break out out that box and make us make us a bit more unique than what we are.
Joanne Lockwood: So I'm I'm not part of the muslim community I'm consider myself ethnically British white middle class to large extent with no real Religion. So I look at religion from the outside and I would always Imagine. My Maybe my naivety or my position that the muslim community is is quite formal and quite strict in terms of the adherence to the faith is that is that a fair representation or is it is it or is it becoming more relaxed as ah as a faith.
Khakan Qureshi: Um, is that that so much about it's becoming more relaxed I think what it is is that if we look at the history of islam it's been quite a progressive religion anyway, um and I think it's about how people adopt or adapt what is expected of us for example in our household on the 1 side. Um, yes, we adhere to certain traditions and certain aspects of the faith but on the other side as a whole as a family. We were quite liberal in our in our thinking as well and we had to learn to adapt to what we today we call it british values but we had to kind of learn to compartmentalize. You know. How we behaved outside the family home and how we responded to people outside and again we had to be different on the inside of the household. But you know we were very kind of um we talked a lot about different things. There was no kind of real taboos as such. Um, the only taboo was about sexuality and mental health and even now and forty. Ah, years later that still seems to be very much a taboo subject matter within the younger generation and families which is a great shame. You know, but even in the extended family. We have people. And individuals who are quite um, quite orthodox I suppose in their approaches and then we've got some people who are quite flexible in their approaches. Some of my for example, my family some members of the family accept me as a gay man and my partner and some of us don't. You know, um I think it's just like any other faith and religion out there that there's people who there's such a wide spectrum of religion. You know in in the abrahamic face that people are kind of it's like not necessarily pick and choose but it's way we're brought up.
Joanne Lockwood: It did do account for because I've noticed some of your posts on Facebook and social media. How you you always seem to have examples of people telling you that what who you are goes against muslims ah values that your. Kind of how can you be a good muslim. How can you? yeah be gay and muslim. These things are incompatible and there's ah, you're getting into a lot of debates about this that must be quite challenged for you.
Khakan Qureshi: Well it is you know because as I said I've had it for so long from such a young age you know going back 40 years and then you you just get to a certain point when you just think oh come on. You know where there's a progress where's how how we going to make change and attitudes. Um, and I think for me personally. Um, when the algaebt school rowuse occurred here in Birmingham in 2019? Um, I really wanted to flag up to say that these young people who are protesting outside primary schools which is supposed to be 1 of the safest place that a child could ever be. You know, creating a hostile environment. They did not represent either my community in Birmingham and they did not represent muslim or pakistani people. Overall some people kind of contract that and say yes they do they they do represent pakistani muslims. Um, but I was saying you know the younger generation who are protesting. I asked them specifically you know that they are born and bred here in this country with all its um equality laws same sex legislation etc. What was occurring in their mind to go out there and protest about some books which were celebrating diversity. And that to me was quite stressful and distressing. Um, and I really want to try to get to grips with that and they kept saying yeah we educated here? Um, but this is our faith and this is our religion. This is what it says and I asked. It's a number of individuals at that time but have you actually read the quran and. 1 of the lead protesters had read it but he had read a ah very very fundamental aspect of it and then the other younger lead protester. He hadn't read it at all. In fact, he told us openly that he had no interest in religion whatsoever but he only did this to save his. Sister um, and that to me it didn't make sense and it was contradiction in terms because for me with my research and my upbringing and the way my parents treated and accepted me that symbolizes and demonstrates what being muslim is what it is to have that faith. Because it's about acceptance and unconditional love and respecting me for who I am rather than what I could have become or what where my life was taking me and yes to all intents and purposes There was a point in my life where my mom did talk about marriage for a couple of years um and growing up as well. Maybe I was confused or not but I did have aspirations or rather I tried to fulfill my parents expectations of me to think. Okay, yes, whatever you want to do if you want me to get married and have children I'll I'll try that but there was something inside me.
Khakan Qureshi: That told me this isn't what I want and this isn't who I am so.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, the overriding imperative is to be honest with yourself at the end of the day you can't You can't live your life by other people's rules and by pleasing other people all the time. So yeah I I fully respect to understand that at some point you had to say actually know this is me.
Khakan Qureshi: It was and and as I said because I was so introverted and quiet in some respects and for me to actually come out the way I did um I just thought to myself where did that come from. But I think the seed of that coming out stems from the fact that. I had such a close relationship with my mom and my bond was so strong and we've always been very open and honest about anything in our lives. Um, and at that point when she did finally confront me to ask me about ah you know, but how can I change so much because I was a homebird. Went to london for a couple of years came back and I started going out and for me it was about asserting my identity and my personality and what I was wanting to do and it was during that time period that I I met my partner and then my mom became a little bit suspicious I suppose. And she began asking questions 1 evening and you know it's quite a traumatic emotional ah conversation that we had but I thought to myself right there and then I can do this 2 ways. It's either I tell my mom openly or I can say it's just a friend.
Khakan Qureshi: And lead a lie and I just thought I can't do that and I just thought whatever the consequences of that coming out I have to face up to it. Um, so I did come out to my mom. Um and I was really fortunate that my mom had said whatever makes you happy makes me Happy. You know, um. And I had to partner at the ah who understood the culturalron dynamics you know and he was saying if they throw you out ka car. You've always got a place with me. You can always come to my house and live me good and proper. Um, which is what I did do. They're still together about 30 years later um you know.
Khakan Qureshi: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so you know but with my dad as I said it was a different kind of um attitude he was somewhat um homophobic for a long time. But I think there was anger from both sides and my relationship with my father wasn't great at the best of times anyway. And there was there was conflict but not sort of like major conflict. It's just that our relationship wasn't as strong as it could have been I didn't have that relationship with my dad the same as my siblings had with him. You know they could interact and talk freely with him whereas for me, it was like um. But dad uses out. It's quite abrupt with him to be honest and but I didn't realize how why we collided the way we did until he passed away and I wrote a short novella and I realized we we shed so many strong characteristics. Um, that's possibly why we clashed and then I realized that. We carry so much. Um, passion I suppose passion to make change and make lives better for other people. Um, because my father was an activist in his own right? He tried to integrate the south asian communities into the British communities. You know he's trying to find ways to show that you know the south asian community aren't aliens at all. We might share different foods or dress sense or you know different ways to pray. But at the same time we're still human beings and we still have the same issues and struggles as our western counterparts. Um. And here I am somni years later perhapsly following in his footsteps but taking that little leap in a different direction slightly because I advocate for algabt quality in the south asian community.
Joanne Lockwood: Amazing. Ah, just listening something you're saying there about I remember telling my mom about me about 5 or 6 years ago. So I'd I'd lived my life a majority of my life before I transitioned and I remember telling my mom. And I asked her did you have any idea and she had no idea I hadn't signed posted this at all and I felt like I had to tell my mom because I didn't believe I could be honest with the world if I couldn't be honest with my mum. It was 1 of those things that you should be able to tell your mom anything and if you can't.
Joanne Lockwood: And are you being honest, withs yourself or so I was very passionate about making sure that I told her face to face. Um and she was amazing. Absolutely wonderful. She yeah she embraced me we hugged. Yes, it took her a few months to get the hang of it to to.
Joanne Lockwood: To be brave to meet me as me and she had tears. No eyes occasionally and I'm still not sure whether those tears and ah the tears no eyes were happy tears or sad tears I've never asked but all I knew was she she embraced me from the first moment I told her which is fantastic and my father I like yours.
Joanne Lockwood: We clashed over many many years and I've gone long periods where we don't talk and when I I told him because he is. He has a hearing impairment I wrote him a letter and that's how he likes to communicate and he wrote me a letter back and it wasn't a rejection. It was a don't be hasty. We can fix you think about your future and and what this will mean um, but at the time it it really made me kind of I say angry. Not angry with a big a angry little. Are you maybe frustrated that he thought he could fix me but then I I read it again a year later
Joanne Lockwood: And saw that there was actually love in there. Actually what you wanted but he was worried about me not worried about himself. So I saw it a different light and wrote back and said look I've missed you. It would be a shame if we never communicated again I Want to meet I Want to have a coffee I want to chat and I want to rebuild our off.
Joanne Lockwood: Relationship as as a parent and child something and we have we've met since and it was a completely indifferent Experience. We didn't talk about me at All. We talked about other stuff and if anything it was very powerful to have a conversation that didn't revolve around talking about me. So I Really enjoyed it and I'm looking forward to seeing him again Soon. So I Really understand the the challenges of interacting with parents especially when you're telling them something so profound as being gay or being Trans or be or being different if you like so I can I can I can I can empathize completely with that.
Khakan Qureshi: Yeah I think I think for me as well. That 1 of the other differences I suppose is because they had such high expectations that you know that I was like um like the darling of the family I suppose and they used to say that whatever Mom wants kon will do it. You know. He's the 1 who'll go down the excuse the pun but the straight and narrow. You know, um and that Kian is the 1 who's going to sort of get married and give Mom what she wants because 1 of her um dreams I suppose was to have a beautiful home have lots of grandkids around. You know that's kind of um. Sounds. It's a bit stereotyped image but to be that kind of grandmother. Um and likewise my my father was the same as well. But I mean obviously they've got their headlock grandchildren but they thought that old give them a beautiful wife. She'll be you know helping a mom in the kitchen and around the household and so these stereotypes were there. Um, and I was quite happy to work along those stereotypes and try and make it happen initially. But there was a point in my life where I just thought this isn't me and I began to question who I was you know and especially as a student in London um. Where I went to a drama college and I was surrounded by people who quite openly identified as part of the Algbt community and you know and there was that the time period that I was there. Um I had lots of questions in my mind that I kind of I didn't know who to tell you know. I thought at some point was I was I gay was I transgendered was I bisexual I had all these kind of conflicting questions to try and figure it all out. You know where at some point it impacted on my mental health. Um, you know and that kind of. Drew me back a bit again because you're looking now sort of circa nineteen ninety ninety two whereby there was the age of you know yourself there was h iv aids section twenty eight you know there's not only was there um political oppressions at that time. So. You know and then I I call it now I call it religious guilt because I used to think if I go out with somebody and they happen to be of the same sex and I I was to kiss them. You know that straight away will put me in Hellfire and damnation because we were brought up that being gay is Forbidden. It's a sin. And likewise in the church as well. You know I hear many stories from christian people who say you know I've identified as part of the Lgbt community but my faith from the church says that god doesn't allow it so you know I think that level of oppression.
Khakan Qureshi: Coming from all sides you know, politically socially in the family. Um and it it was a case of how do I come through this and at my mind at that time again. It was 2 ways. It's so that I try and be stronger and battle on.
Khakan Qureshi: Or I end it all and that was my 2 options I didn't think there was going to be any other adoption. You know? So yeah and for me again as I said of being on the peripherals everybody who was a drama student.
Khakan Qureshi: But happened to be white. There was only about 4 or 5 of us who you know identified as people of color and but I had no role models. There was no support systems in place. No kind of ldbt counselors or people that I could talk to openly about what I was feeling or what I was going through. Um, the stigma surrounding mental health was still quite well very strong you know because nobody wanted to open up to say I need help really not in that the the wider communities and if even in that as a south asian if you did raise your voice so I need some help. Again, you immediately stigmatized and it was a taboo subject matter. Um, but I managed to pull myself through.
Joanne Lockwood: That's been a tough time I mean as you say it was vice the kind of I suppose. It's becoming the the tail end of the beginning if that makes sense of of the Aids Epidemic Pandemic where. Was being understood better by the early ninety s in some respect obviously still no Pep or prep there was still. It was still but life expectations still extremely short and there's still a lot of stigma around being gay and and the link with H I V whether you had Hv or not.
Joanne Lockwood: It was still assumed that it was a gay disease and it was It was even the religious argument was it was God or your God inflicts is on you for being gay and and so there must have been a huge amount of internalization of of of hatred and religious conflict there if you were going through it.
Khakan Qureshi: Yeah I think for it. Ah I think we got we have a term for it nowadays isn't it we could they say it's internalized homophobia and at that time I think that's what I experience again I couldn't put a name to it but I was 1 of these people that on the 1 side if. I'd seen a gay couple or an individual who expressed themselves and confirmed that they were part of the Lgbt community and the 1 side I appeared to be quite appalled by it and I wanted to step away from it. But on the other side it was like I want a piece of that I want to be able to express myself in that way. I admire that person that the confidence that they have to be who they want to be and there's no qualms and no ifs or butts about it. They were just there. Um and it took me a long time to come to terms with who are who I was and what I wanted and what I needed you know, um. And that's when you know when I came back from london um, and I met my partner a year later um and that was ah that was ah ah a barrier that we overcome overcame as well. You know because to me initially it was a case of okay, he's a white to guy older. But that was it that was the only thought that I had um, it's only much much later that people said but there's other aspects of your relationship kukcon that have you ever considered and to me I just thought no, we're a couple together um but somebody highlighted the fact that we're you know, different ethnicities different religions. Red different kind of age group different outlook on life. You know, excuse me. Um and I'll say oh my gosh. Yeah, there are so many differences but you know that's what makes it your unique relationship because we learnt to overcome that that difference.
Joanne Lockwood: You can celebrate the difference rather than see it as a problem't I think that's a beautiful love story in my mind that you you have those differences yet, you're in love and it shows that those differences are largely irrelevant in in the world and but we don't need. Focus on the differences all the time we we can celebrate love and acceptance and and each other without seeing those differences and I think I I think I think it's a great love story and now I think it's Amazing. You've been together about 30 odd years. So That's brilliant.
Khakan Qureshi: That here. Yeah, because 1 1 of our in the early years. Obviously you know I was being um, taunted I suppose by people that I knew to say what am I doing with a white older guy. The emphasis being on the fact that he's white. Whereas my my partner here was being ridiculed because he happened to be going with a person of south asian heritage you know and from both sides we received a lot of derogatory comments about what we were doing and lots of questions were raised as well. You know and at 1 point we were having a meal together with a couple of friends and the friend turned around and said well what? What do you? 2 have in common you know because I en listed all all the things that we had opposite views and tasting like music clothes, styles, etc. And I said it's not so much about there. Materialistic things that matter it's about how we've connected as individuals. Um, and even now it's like we sit together and it's like who would have thought that we've made it for so long you know and in the early years people said oh it's going to take 3 months or six months or a year um but we've come through it not without its own kind of ah barriers and obstacles. We've we've can't kind of faced. We've faced. You know hostility at various stages their lives but whatever life events we've had we've we've learned to it's made us stronger.
Joanne Lockwood: Just like you meet you? Yeah, you've been together for so long so you together you've been through section twenty eight together. You've been through. Um the ah was it the the civil partnership. Ah, act that was created in the early 2000 and then the the ah the same-sex marriage which was 20122013 something like that. So you you see the evolution of zero rights for gay people to be married to be to be recognized.
Joanne Lockwood: To have pensions to be able to claim benefits or or these kind of things to seeing the evolution of those rights and you must be kind of looking back the 30 years and seeing how that your life together has evolved.
Joanne Lockwood: To be recognized and validated by by the world if you um or certainly by our world.
Khakan Qureshi: Yeah, most most definitely you know in the as I said in the early years. It was quite difficult for me to I could quite openly say within our relationship you know with families and that you know I'm gay but in the workplace it was a different kettle of fish you know because there were times when I thought. I can't say you know because if somebody said do you have a ah partner or I never used to talk about relationships. Um I used to just say something like quite vague and say something like um, yeah I've got somebody in my life and leave it at that and if they dare to ask further questions I'll say. Whatever you're asking. It's too personal to me so I refuse to answer but I'll tell you what John what happened was 1 of the turning points was I was I attended an aids awareness workshop for the City council. Um, and I was there as a participant attendee and 1 of the other attendees. Um, she said gay people to me are like a sheep with a dog's head or a dog with a sheep's head she said I just don't get it I don't understand it at all and I didn't have the confidence at that point in my life to speak up. You know I just said I just told her. It was a very insensitive comment to make but I kind of left it at that. But when I went home I was so angry with myself and so upset I did say to my other half and I said I can't stand this if people are going to be making comments about us and people like me and you being who are gay. You know we're we're trying to get on with our lives if people are going to start making those comments I need to speak up about it and that was turning point. So when people did begin to ask me about being gay I'd quite openly say yes I am or if they did start saying things which are very critical or homophobic or bio Phobic transphobic. I used to kind of challenge it in a way that you know I didn't want to offend them either to create a hostile environment because it's a workplace but I did it in a way that sort of made them think twice about what they were saying and even now to this day. Um in a work in the workplace I still find that I'm challenging people.
Joanne Lockwood: Um, yeah, my my wife finds it sometimes confusing for her we we won't we' been married 34 years and I transitioned what 5 or 6 years ago so for twenty Well twenty eight years of our marriage I was her husband. Um, it was very easy, very vanilla and now she when she's describing me she has to sometimes decide. She's gonna describe me as a husband and sometimes she describes me as a partner because sometimes it just doesn't make sense to go here's my husband that I walk in so she.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm Goingnna be present. She'll describe me as a partner because she feels less awkward that way. Um, so we we actually joke about it. Um, am I going to be your partner. So am I going to be your husband just because of societal expectations and just making it easier for straight people and and Non -trans people to get ahead around it but we kind of go. Ah.
Joanne Lockwood: It doesn't matter. We don't need to fight this battle Today. We just we just go along with whatever it makes you more comfortable. So yeah, we recognize it and ah but my daughter's walking around tes goeses with me and she shouts oh dad I kind of go cringe but at the end of day I'm a dad and I I love being a dad so it's ah a. But. People give you a funny look sometimes it's like how does that work you go? Well it. It just works I'm cool with it if you it doesn't matter to me. So yeah, it's.
Khakan Qureshi: Yeah, and I think that's really important isn't is that about how you feel as well isn't how comfortable you feel when people are sort of um, calling out to you or sort of labeling you I suppose you know, but it is is kind of.
Khakan Qureshi: You you look at the life and you as you quite rightly says looking at how things have evolved I think another turning point for me was we lived in devon for a couple of years in 2005 and we came back in 2000 7 um and obviously we had experienced homophobia at that point up until that point and then I've seen this? Um. Stonewall advert emblazoned on the side of a bus to say that you know, um homophobia is a crime call the police if you're a victim of it and I was so so impressed that I came home when I said to my other half I said you know if anybody says anything hoophobic now. We can call the police straight away. And that really offered us a lot of reassurances you know and so you know when when we do feel attacked. We do call the police now you know the last number of years we've called the police and whereby at 1 point in our history if you call the police. It was generally. Ignored really you know and that in itself is ah that's a milestone to be honest, you know little things can make such a huge difference and offer so much reassurances I'm just hoping that the the next generation coming through. They don't have to put it with the crap to be honest that we've. Ah, to put up with.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I mean I wrote to the stats recently and four out to five hate Crimes Ltbt Q Plus hate crimes still grown unreported and it's it's higher amongst a younger generation I Guess it's going to be because younger generation are more likely to fight their own battles or.
Joanne Lockwood: Or see the the authority of the police in a different light maybe get more when you get older. Maybe you you're more likely to to report it? Um, but if we're looking at 4 a 5 and level of underreporting then the level of hate climate's still going on still prevalent. We see stats we see. Um.
Joanne Lockwood: Reports around ourtbtcu plus in in employment. We still see people coming out of University packing their gain us away in the in the trunk and going into corporate life and cover and mask until they know it's safe and this is still going on and we still see Yeah the um.
Joanne Lockwood: Prevalence of of banter and jokes and homophobic microaggressions. Maybe not blat in some cases but people are made to feel less than so even we're in 2021 we still see a lot of oppression from lgb and the t and the queue community still being in.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, in the mainstream media on Twitter everywhere is it really it.
Khakan Qureshi: Yeah, and and it's shame rate and I think it doesn't help and you have um you know leaders of the world who are very much conservative in their outlooks. Um, and I think that's 1 of the reasons why there's pushback against the lgbti plus community. Because they're saying it's okay to demonize us and then followers I suppose they pick up on that vibe and they do what they think is right for them. But you know it is utopia to us for an ideal world in which we're we're just free to be who we want to be you know, but we. There's nothing stopping us for striving for it though. Is there really? um, you know and and and like for me looking back on my my years. The childhood years and coming through it. Um I just wish I had that little bit more strength or confidence to be who wanted to be you know in the eighty s we had the gusts and the new romantics and the punks and all these different subcultures and the the conservative not the conservative like political conservative but the more kind of reserved aspects of me. Um I loved that but because I was brought up the way I was. You know that muslim people don't do this so asians don't do that I just thought I can't you know and but I just wish that people had that confidence to do what they needed to do you know and that's why I applauded the um, the lgbt.
Khakan Qureshi: Ah, schools that implemented no outsiders program to introduce diversity and respect and inclusion to say that we're all different. We're all different. We've all got different aspects and different identities and that we also be respected and loved for who we are. You know if if we had that type of thing. But now I was a child I think my my mindset would have been completely different to where it is now.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I agree I think we have evolved a long way I think the the level of I think this word acceptance of of of Queer community is is greater than ever ever has been. But there's still the vocal majority or I'm sorry vocal minority. You.
Joanne Lockwood: Who are very loud, very well financeanced very well organized as you as you intimated probably backed by the popularists of more right-wing governments and and and movements and around the world because ah yeah, you look at what we talk about at the moment so a couple couple of months ago it was world. Blood day wasn't it so thirteenth of June august.
Joanne Lockwood: Check the the rules were changed on on game and being and donate blood and answer the same questions as anybody else so being a man was no longer a barrier you still like everybody else you have to say if you have diseases or risk or whatever. So yeah I thought that was a mistake but that's 2021 before that became.
Joanne Lockwood: And now we're now we're debating the banning of conversion therapy. Why are we debating this. We're having conversations around or hang on a bit we need religious exceptions we need to have this. We need to have or we can't have We can't ban conversion therapy against Trans people because that means we're going to have to be.
Joanne Lockwood: Positively ah and affirming people's identities is like hang on a minute we're trying to pick apart legislation says to ban conversion therapy and to sort of question. All the elements of it I think are we still there are we still debating that basic right to exist all right if we were talking about banning. Straight conversion therapy it imagines imagine a straight person being converted through electrolysis or electrocuting to be gay imagine the uproar yet. We still put put queer people through this conversion therapy. Even though maybe it doesn't happen often in practice. But there's still pressure.
Joanne Lockwood: To fix people isn't there I can't believe 2021 we're still talking about this being socially acceptable.
Khakan Qureshi: What I think it's quite ironic that the very person or peoples who started up the campaign to ban conversion therapy. 1 of the main reasons that they set up that campaign um is because of the religious aspects of it. You know it's because of the religion that they stepped it upper gear to say this needs to be banned and yet the government equalities office are looking at exceptions from religion and to me that doesn't make sense because I was approached by um, couple of people from that office and I Said. You know if it's if the campaign stems from conversion therapy in a religious setting and you're looking at maybe sort of respecting other people's religious viewpoints Then? what's the point. What's the point in having the consultation. Um, So yeah that that. I Just said you know what? you just needed to create a blanket band completely. You know what? why? Why should we have these conversations and asking various organizations and individuals about whether or not that they agree with the wording Why can't they just make it law to to ban it completely. But they said that's not were accessive but you. As as politicians go they they can implement laws willy nily without debate and Consultation. Can't they really you know and this is basic human right? sorry.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I mean that I consult now. Yeah, there's something today I so I read some today about there' this debate again around. Um, whether Misogyny should be a hate crime at including anti um homophobia.
Joanne Lockwood: Or homophobia is part of the 1 of the sentencing factors in the same way that racial racial tension or religious tension is is a sentencing factor. They want to add homophobia sexism et etc into that as well and I noticed when I read the consultation they talk about an exception that says. Gender criticalical views will be allowed so we want to. We want to make sure that trans people queer people or agpt q Bus people are protected or but yet. But we we make an exception for people who are gender criticalical who want to attack trans people. That's okay, still you think hang on a minute you're you're protecting a b c d e f g at h o j.
Khakan Qureshi: The.
Joanne Lockwood: But what about the tea where does it when when when do we find it when did we finally find a place in society where we're not the front line of attack anymore and it's like yeah I'm sure you felt this maybe in the ninety s and and the early 2000. It's like every day you wake up and go ah here we go again here. We go again and it's just this onslaugh. I mean I'm I'm pretty resilient person. But even I'm getting kind of like ah this's just turn the volume down I can't I can't venture on to that anymore.
Khakan Qureshi: Yeah, yeah, and I think it is about sort of like you see I think the keyword is resilience isn't it and for some of us we do have that resilience but our mindful as well that there's some people who are. Not uber sensitive or hypersensitive but they've they've got different kind of mindsets their world is different to ours. You know their life journey and experience is different to ours. So for Them. It's about what will trigger them and how as I said to you earlier. It's about how it impacts on mental health as Well. You know, um. Some people are quite in tune with their own personal mental health but some people aren't they don't realize what can make them upset or what can trigger them until they're actually in in that position. So you know like ah some of us are are really good in challenging the status quo but some of us. We get. We can only go so far and then we have to withdraw for whatever reason and and we have to be mindful of that sorry.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, you look at? yeah, my resilience only goes so far it has a it's bit like a dosl battery. You get so far then do the but the power goes and my resilience is fades as well. So yeah, it's I have to I have to? yeah. Protect myself sometimes and it's not always easy.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes, um, you can do you want to talk to me about your british empire medal I know you're very proud of that and we haven't covered it so far so how did that come about I think you've also said you've got interesting story about how you first found out, you've been nominated. So.
Khakan Qureshi: Um, well I think because I've done my activism for so long now the Albi Activism for the South Asian Community Um, and I definitely am a minority in the minority and definitely um, the peripherals of.
Joanne Lockwood: Tell me about that.
Khakan Qureshi: The whole kind of age alga bt activism spectrum. Um, because 1 is I find a lot of activism is based in London or up north like Manchester predominantly london I would say and there's me do my little bits here in the midlands and there's very few very few. Ah, think just half a dozen of us who are activists in that on rights and we identify as south asian career or algabt. Um, so what happened was um at the beginning like February twenty twenty um I received a a letter to say I was nominated. For what they call a points of light award which is um given by downing street and now it's not politically affiliated I'm just making that clear is whichever party is in government at that time they will hand 1 out. There's honest, so many. Recipients who receives the points of light awards and I was really fortunate to receive that 1 um and then later on in the last year in Summer I received an email and I thought it was a phishing scam because it was it had the yeah didn't like the royal. Signage on there and I just thought this has got to be a joke you know to say that I've been nominated for a british empire medal and I even spoke to my partner about it and we just kind of um I didn't delete it fortunately but I saved it and I just thought you know if it's real. Um. I'll I'll work with it but I had to do quick google search to make sure that it wasn't a efficient scam. Um and I didn't really comprehend fully the impact of being nominated for 1 until I received a hardcopied letter through the post. And then I realized it was official. Um, yeah, so the the nomination was there because of my advocacy for Lgbt equality. Um, and obviously they thought they thought I was a deserving individual I think 1 of the aspects on that is because maybe they think that I uphold. British values inverted commas um, but hence why I said that I I kind of look at logic and reason through complex situations because it weighed so heavily on my mind and you know I kind of thought do I accept it. Do I not. Um, you know looked at the reasons why I should accept. It looked at the reasons why? ah I shouldn't and I know that has got um, links to very much a colonial past but there's other reasons as to why I accepted it you know and and looking back now.
Khakan Qureshi: I am very proud of it that to be honest and I think my parents in particular who you know the passed away I think they would have appreciated it a lot and especially my dad he would have been very proud of me to think that 1 of his sons has received his haccolade from the Queen herself you know. Um, as I said he he he championed the south asian community and although we clashed I stepped in and I look at the the flip side the the more taboo subject matters sexuality gender identity and mental health. But. I'm still striving for change that makes it better for us to integrate a lot more than what we have been.
Joanne Lockwood: So who actually presented you with the the empire medal who was the first pinderon.
Khakan Qureshi: Um, um, well it would have been the Queen but because of covid regulations that didn't happen so we went to the university of Birmingham and it was the Lord lieutenant who um, pins the badge.
Khakan Qureshi: So that was an honor in itself and I have heard that there will be aparthe at Bookingham palace next year. So um, we'll see.
Joanne Lockwood: So there' be kind of a catchup for all of those that receive their you know their awards in other places to come and and have ah that would be lovely I I went to ah a palace garden party. Um, back in 2010 I think it was the year that the heavens opened.
Joanne Lockwood: And a hailstoned like crazy in London I'm standing in the middle of Buckingham palace lawn with my wife being bombarded with sort of hepely size hailstones but we had to meet the Queen. We got to meet prince philip duke of edinburgh at the time. And it's very nice for the cucumber sandwiches. But yeah, it was a a good honor to go to go to the garden party but as she was as you were speaking I remember at the beginning of this this episode you said that there weren't any role models as you were growing up that there was no queer muslim people that you could look up to or aspire to and.
Joanne Lockwood: I I thought myself 1 of the the biggest challenges we have is lack of role models lack of visibility lack of people actually being just being themselves and so when you said that you accepted the the empire medal.
Joanne Lockwood: Knowing about some of the colonial past and some of the other sort negative connotations I Just perceived you as such a great, a great honor for you. Not only for you but also being an advocate for the South Agent Ltpd Community you've given hope and light to others just by.
Joanne Lockwood: But being you and having that recognized I think I think I think that is ah it' a great honor and I and I'm immensely respectful of of what you did to earn it and be awarded it and the fact you you accepted it as ah as a voice to the community I think I think I think it's great I I want to see more. Openly trans people more openly gay people in public office in football in everywhere in every work in life. And yeah, we can we can we can celebrate programs like strictly having the same sex couple with John and johans in this we can celebrate that but we're still seeing it as a.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, kind of I don't know a circus act is's kind of celebrating them really. We should be just recognizing that Some people are gay. Some people are straight. Let's just get on with it We we shouldn't have the the tokenistic Carpul there We should be having a a whole blend of people. Um.
Joanne Lockwood: Not just 1 gay couple we we should have fifty fifty if you like or whatever the ratio is. But yeah I think again the bbc I guess step on x-shells that they're trying not to offend anybody still um, it's going to evolve over time. Maybe we will see. an openly gay prime minister an openly trans mp at some point in the same way that we we are starting to see openly trans people in inceial roles in organizations at lung last and it won't be just such a ah kind of ah a blip and unusual side. It will just be kind of.
Khakan Qureshi: Exactly exactly and that's why I I say to people that when the kind of change that I want to see that. Yes, we do have Lgbt organizations or what I have you but I'd like them not to exist if that makes sense because I want to get to the point whereby if somebody says.
Joanne Lockwood: Part of Everyday life.
Khakan Qureshi: Have you got a partner and you know you can say you've got a husband wife or whatever you can and if they say are you gay or part of the Lgbt community and if you say yes, it's a it's a so what? It's not a big deal that to so up whereas now we're still experiencing that. Ah oh my gosh. This person has come out as gay or this person's come out as. Trans or bisexual. Um I think 1 of the more major bastions of the world is where I want to see changes in football to be honest I would like to see an openly gay footballer I know 1 came through recently. But I haven't seen anybody in the u k step forward. Um, and I think that will make a huge change if it if it does.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, like I I kind of I not to defend it but there's I can understand the challenges of being an international footballer who's openly gay it limits your competition in sport it limits your marketing potential in certain countries of the world and.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not saying it's all about you. It shouldn't be about the money and it shouldn't be about um the abuse you you're going to get if you come out and those things but it's there's an immense amount of pressure to be openly gay in in sports still doesn't know. It's if if you think about Qatar world cup openly gay and traveling there.
Joanne Lockwood: Makes you a target. It makes you um draw it means you you can't travel with a partner you you've got to have separate hotel, rooms, etc, etc. You can't show. Yeah whole hands in Public. There's a whole lot of things that the media is going to be all over you and your life will no longer be about how good your football is. It's about how. How gay your football is if you like and it's bad enough with racism in football at the moment isn't it. So I think I'd love to see a change as well and it's going to need more than Rainbow laces campaigns to create that safety. Maybe we can see the younger generation being more open.
Khakan Qureshi: This.
Joanne Lockwood: Being out before you're famous. Maybe maybe that's the even Tom day's didn't he he he Tom came out as effectively questioning or or buy or not sure for a while and he you and he wasn't confident enough to come straight out and say I'm gay I'm in a relationship.
Khakan Qureshi: Yes, it is here.
Joanne Lockwood: That's a huge amount of pressure isn't it. It's a huge amount of pressure to ah to compete and have that media attention on you as well.
Khakan Qureshi: Yeah I do understand that side as all but that's why 1 of the main topics that I discuss when I when I'm at conferences and workshops is about how not being true to yourself does impact on Mental health um, you know and then you. Stats about mental health are really high as well. So you know it's it's a twofold. Ah dilemma isn't it isn't it do come out with you not and if you don't come out. How does it impact on your mental health and yes there are some people who are able to lead. Um for want of a better word. Phrase dual lives. They're able to do that. But it's in the long term who does it impact on most you know.
Joanne Lockwood: Oh completely I Completely agree. It's um, since I was honest with myself and honest with the world I My mental Health is is. It's completely different I have a different view on the world. So Yeah I understand the difference between that that. Unlocking that freedom of expression that freedom of who you are how how that empowers you to just be a better version of you as I Ah yeah.
Khakan Qureshi: Are. Exactly exactly so you know but going back to the original point being that being on the peripherals I'm sure we've all been on the peripheral of a community at some point in our lives and some of it's more so than others. Um. But when you come through as South Asian Muslim Pakistani brown-skinned and gay you know and not being able to fit in in any particular kind of quarters I suppose or groups it it does kind of make you rethink life and. How you navigate through it as Well. You know and and as a come.
Joanne Lockwood: You kind of built your own you built your own chosen family I Guess now you've you forged your own way of living rather than let' fitting into other people's communities. You've created your own your own family your own community.
Khakan Qureshi: Yeah I've tried I've tried to you know so of I've got people that I can rely on people that I can trust you know and it's a very diverse range of people and you know yourself from looking at my Facebook there's so many different people on there who are you know some are atheists some are ex-muslims. Some have got very kind of varied viewpoints on the world. Um, but I'm glad that I've attracted these kind of different people. Um, you know because that's what life is all about isn't it attracting connecting sharing viewpoints in a respectful way rather than kind of her anger anger. Um, you know and I think it just helps and for me though as I said to my partner and he says to me as well is that you know we can lead the the lives as best as we can and if we die and there is a god or allah we're not exactly going to have the opportunity to come back and say you know what. You've got it wrong or you've got it right? you know because we've got to just make the best of what we have.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes, live life your life be you? um stand up for what you believe in and hopefully be a a fantastic role model for others who follow I Think there's a very good molves and standards to live by. So yeah I commend that completely.
Joanne Lockwood: Your background is in health and social care and you spend a lot of time working with homeless people so you must see a lot of the impact of of mental health especially within the homeless or or the rough sleeping community is it is it getting worse I mean do we see are we seeing. Higher rate of mental health issues now than we ever have.
Khakan Qureshi: Um, well I I don't necessarily work with street sleepers or street homelessness I work with young people who um, for whatever reason you know it could be family dynamics have changed or relationship has broken down or something. So um I work with young people and in the last couple of years. There are a number of young people coming through who are experiencing more anxiety and depressions than ever before I don't know if that's because of covid kind of um and the restrictions that's placed upon young people who are sole kind of wanting to get out and socialize a lot more. That could be 1 of the reasons or or something completely different, but we have noticed in the last year that people entering the service are experiencing more anxieties and depressions than than before and it has peaked a lot more whereas before we might have maybe 2 or 3 individuals. We're having a lot more coming through with those kind of um. Diagnosed or undiagnosed mental health issues and it's a shame you know? Um, but I'm quite fortunate that I recently received my mental health first data certificate and so I'm now able able and better ecrypt to sign post individuals and refer them to the necessary. Organizations or agencies that require that that support. Um, but you know the mental health aspects of of it whether they're wholeness or not um, plays an integral part of our conversations that we have on a regular basis in the workplace you know because we're we're very mindful now of how. Where people are coming from how they're identifying what they're going through. You know what's their end result I suppose.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I I hear you I I see a lot of examples of this with other people I talk with the Health Social Care sector. And yeah, it's It's a challenge. It's we're in this always on world now Social media pressure likes how we're. But always on the spotlight and it must be a lot of pressure for young people to live in that world I mean when we were younger we could just turn off once we once it got Dark. We left the park took off football went home and then we were were off and there was no pressures there. So yeah, now it's almost more pressured.
Joanne Lockwood: Online to to be liked to be popular to be part of something and yes, it's is. It's a real struggle.
Khakan Qureshi: What that there is that? um, but again, that's I think that that there's an element of owning privileges at that an entitlement but the other side to that is um, we we we do have a number of like refugees and. Coming through from different parts of the world. So Their objectives are completely different their priorities definitely to be housed as well. But again their mental health pressures come from the fact that they're experiencing loneliness or isolation or not being able to socialize as much as what they could do if they were say back home. Um.
Khakan Qureshi: Bearing in mind that number of offleen political persecution for whatever reason and you know so so I think working with homeless people and social care in the last twenty ah years is people have so many different issues and different dynamics to contend with that. Um, you know some. Aspects of their identity sometimes is pushed aside and some aspects are brought to the forefront. Um, you know which does make a huge difference and some people like you said earlier are very comfortable in their own skin and they make their voices known and that's a good thing.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, Ga Thank you so much Khakan I can't believe we've been chatting for an hour already I can certainly keep keep chatting to you all night. Um, so thank you so much I'm sure our listeners would have much to ponder and take inspiration from if they want to get in touch with you. Are you happy for people to get in contact with you.
Khakan Qureshi: Oh that's fine. They just use my name Khakan Qureshi I'm on Facebook Twitter Insta Linkedin and send me an email if they need to as well. So yeah I'm quite happy to connect with people as long as they kind of respectful towards me and me towards them.
Joanne Lockwood: How would they do that.
Khakan Qureshi: Um, and I'm happy to help out where I can as well.
Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic I'll put your contact details in the show notes. So people do want to get older for you. They can and also when I share this on Linkedin I'll tag you in and again people can get older of you that way as well. So so thank you so much. Um, thank you that pleasure. Thank you to the listeners and thank you for tuning in for.
Khakan Qureshi: Um, ah thank you very much for having me.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, staying online and and listening this far. Please do subscribe to keep updates on future episodes of the inclusion bytes podcast at b I t yes, tell your friends and colleagues please do share these episodes have a number of other exciting guests lined up that will surely be equally inspired by over the next few weeks and months and of course if you'd like to be a guest. Then let me know if you've got other comments or suggestions how we can improve the show again, please email me do Joe dot lockwood at Sea changee happen dot code uk and finally my name is Joanne lockwood It's been absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.