Joanne Lockwood: Hello everyone my name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for the inclusion Bites podcast in this series I have interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation about the subject of inclusion belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. Like to join me in the future then please do drop me a line to Jo Dot Lockwood as t changeapp dot codo ek let's s stuly changeapp dot code at Uk you can catch up with all of the preview shows on Itunes Spotify and the usual places so plug any headphones grab a decaf. And let's get going today is episode 57 with the title creating balance and representation in technology and I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Nicole Hardyman Nicole describes herself as a software and day to engineer who is passionate. About inclusion and diversity. Ah, one of the co-founders of the Swindon inclusion and diversity network when I asked Nicole to describe her superpower. She said people talk to me and she has been told that she has a listening ear hello to Cole. Welcome to the show. Hello.
Nicole Hardiman: Hi Jo thanks for having me on. It's great to be here.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes I think we planned this months ago and it's finally got to that time. So thank you so much Nicole creating a balance of representation in technology I know you're passionate about this so tell me more about your passion.
Nicole Hardiman: So I've been working in technology for a really long time and if you want to know exactly how long that is I was absolutely on call for the millennium bug so quite a while and in that time i. I've been quite ah a lonely lady shall we say there's not been a lot of females in the tech teams that I've been in so I can room absolutely working in 1 place where it wasn't just that I was the only tech person the young female in a tech team or the only female on that floor I was the only female in the building other than the receptionist and. Ah, the time it didn't occur to me to mind about that. It didn't cross my mind to be concerned or worried. But as time has gone on and the more I was spoken to other ladies. The more I realized that sometimes women in technology feel extremely lonely. They feel extremely isolated. And they don't always have as much of a voice as they would like to have they feel a little drowned out so it's really important for me to make sure that that people who are underrepresented in technology have a voice because you know around half of our population is female. So our tech team should be representative of. Population at large. Um, otherwise we do end up with some well there have been some quite well documented phone paths. Let's go with that.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes, and it we we can cover those in a minute if you like So Why I mean I hear this all the time I work with a lot of recruiters. So My kind of sweet spot is is avising recruiter and I hear so many times it's really really hard to find great female talent. And really is it well.
Nicole Hardiman: There is a very small pool of female talent and I think that as ah as an industry. The technology industry is actually starting to look in the wrong place for that female talent. Um, there's a lot of. I need some really brilliant software engineers I need them now I need them all to be very senior and they should be female because I've got an id quote to hit a I really don't like that we've got an I and d quoted to hit that's terrible. Let's come back to that one in a bit but. The pool of ladies that are out there who are that senior is really small. There's some that is a statistic and I think it was the women in technology website actually came up with there's less than 10 percent of women are full stack. Um, debs. So for your developers that are doing full stack development only ten percent of those people are female. Um, let alone as identifies anything else I think you know those those numbers are ridiculously small. So if we're all trying to fish from the same pond and there's only 10% of that pond is female then we're not. To attract all of that talent unless we've got something really special going on and we're really making sure that we're looking after the ladies that we've got I think what we need to be doing is saying do not text for everybody and we need to demystify it. We need to say that it's not just for people who can. Code in 6 languages and understand four databases and know how to export everything into the cloud and can then splice data here there and everywhere it's for anybody who wants to do anything and it's a really creative process and I don't think we talk about it in the right way to encourage more ladies to think about that as a career. Um. They often talk about my my niece. So um, complicated family didn't meet my lece until she was about 7 um and she said to me what too tear and I said I worked with computers and she said to me can girls do that and I said girls can do anything they want to do if you want to work with computers. That's why she's the only girl in her Skype drop right now. So I am. Super proud of her that's amazing. But if 1 conversation that says girls can do anything. Can they encourage my niece to do that. What could that do in a school what happens if we go into school and say do you know? what? this isn't really heavily nerdy stuff. That's really frightening and maybe we've turned it into something that yeah um, subset of the population can do. If we go in and say this is really creative look at the art that you can create with technology look at what you could what you could build what if you wanted to do something and I'm I'm getting horribly stereotypical and I know a lot of the schools are what if you wanted to do something with textiles.
Nicole Hardiman: But then you added some information to that or some robotics into it and turned it into something completely different and I don't think we give that Opportunity. We just say right? This is for people who sta at screens and numbers and text all day and these are things that you might want to do with It's more creative I mean I have I have um a raspberry Pi and my raspberry Pi goes in the craft covered. Next to my cross stitch because in my mind those 2 things are both creative things they they belong together. But I think it's It's not a lot of people that think like that. So I think it's getting into the schools.
Joanne Lockwood: So I I've had I think 3 raspberry pies over the over I don't I have I I I think I got the first one when it first came out and then I got the next one that had a bit more graphics memory and I I I would I would spend hours. Downloading the image and and tweaking it and working out what was going to be part of the build and and booting it up and and seeing what I could do with the thing I don't think I ever ah programmed with it I I used it more as a yeah ah did display some graphics and things like that I was using some tools I think I wanted a media service. That's what it was at the time I was using a. Ah, now before plex whatever that yeah the um, there's a media server you could download and I think I built that on it. There was a built for pride because it it had a very good graphics chip and even though it Wass only a telelo one process. It was the graphics chip but could render 10 atp and and Dvds and things on that. So.
Nicole Hardiman: All sorts of magical things with it. 1 of the one of the guys I work with is put a kubernetes cluster on it which I think is fantastic. Some raspry pi.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I remember that back in? Yeah yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I've seen people using them in basic forms to run the the white the sort the Tv verception areas of buildings and you can you can connect to them and you can put ah put an image on it and for what I think I paid about £37 if I remember rightly for the first one. And for for better technology. Okay, you didnt spend another hundred pound on the box the keyboard the or the other interfaces but it was still great value just to play with um.
Nicole Hardiman: Like my current favorite thing is the 8 pans 99 camera unit that I've got I'm hoping to do some time lapse photography of my garden. So maybe we'll see but just like I said creative I think it's creative.
Joanne Lockwood: I Um yeah I love playinging with it and but then I've always been probably like stuff quite geeky for all of my life and is is that is that part of the problem that we we give it that label of geeky. We give it that label of nerdy.
Nicole Hardiman: Um.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, Bill and Ted type thing. It's kind of got that it it doesn't have the even the image of of men who are into the subject isn't they're not attractive. Men is is a stereotype is it. They're kind of baggy t-shirt with skulls on it and and long hair and kept in the dark.
Nicole Hardiman: Step.
Joanne Lockwood: So even the even the male stereotypes is not attractive. Let alone how we get women to believe that that's a career path and.
Nicole Hardiman: I think there's ah, a really interesting Tv advert and I can't remember which channel it's on but there's a Tv program that's being pushed at the moment called beauty in the geek where I think certain ladies who might appear to be fairly shallow in the adverbs at least I don't want to make an assumption about them. Um. And they've sort of paired them up with guys who have been in the tech market and ah a rather little bit than well off and they they've decided this is a dating show and I was like you're not helping me because you've created this persona of you know the big bang theory type guys who you can't sort of hold a social conversation and that's.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Nicole Hardiman: Not true. That's not what technology is about at all I mean more and more as technology moves forward. We're doing things like agile which is a way of working which is really collaborative and you know you have to be able to to. Be very social in those situations. It's not shut somebody in a cupboard anymore and let them program for hours and hour hours and hour hours and hours it's now how do we do this together and I think the more that's happening if someone as long as we can give people a voice and include people then that's a really great place to be and it actually opens a lot of doors.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Nicole Hardiman: But it's it's not something that people look at in that way.
Joanne Lockwood: So is the challenge The inclusion element of of or is it the creating aspirations for young women Young young girls to see it as a career if they were to get to the point where they were. They had an interest would they be included. But how do we get the interest there.
Nicole Hardiman: I Think it's both I Really think there's a huge thing about demystifying Tech I would give you another family story and my older sister is a seamstres and she runs in her in her work. She does her sewing I don't know what you call that so group of people doing a motor seing and upholstering and all the rest of it. She has a work board. So a big white board that has post its on it that has work to do work in progress work that's blocked and then it tells you who's doing the work and I said to her you're just running a canbo and she said what's that and I said it's It's basically a Canband board.. That's what you're doing. It's one of the principles of agile you could go and be a scrummaster or something. And she went. No. No I can't do that last turkey I was like no, you don't understand you're already doing it this this is it. This is the job in that she was like no it can't do it. It's techy and point blank refused to even look at it because that was a technology thing because I think we have created something so. Closed in so Ivory tower that people can't bring themselves to look at it anymore because it's frightening. So How do we make that less frightening and it's something that it does start in the schools you know because we are schools that don't have a great stem. Um. Or don't have great numbers of ladies or girls moving into stem also tend to have some really large numbers of ladies and no guys in things like home Economics. So How are we taking those you know, really early stereotypes and breaking them and saying this isn't scary. This is okay. This is something we can you know work on together and the things that I as a woman bring to that or somebody else as a guy or whoever somebody else identifies brings to that. It's all going to be something different and all of our experiences are really valid and we'll all approach problems in a different way. So. Bringing the the wealth of diversity of thought or even the let alone diversity of you know,? whatever we want to call ourselves is really really really Important. So It's It's how we how we break that and I think it's.. It's really hard I recently was working on a white paper with a tech talent Charter. It's in hackathon to create a white paper which is a good job if anybody wants to have a go at that They quite often have them on their on their website. Um, but. When we talked through that we were saying you actually have to go after people to talk to them about rescaling and technology but you can't do it passively. They can't come to you because it's too frightening. So How do you go to them and say are you really good at problem solving are you really good understanding this flow of work. Are you really good at you know.
Nicole Hardiman: Are you created spreadsheets because often it's not a big leap then to go out a little bit more and actually think about a tech job Some of these people are already doing it but they're so scared of admitting that that's technology because that's frightening I mean I used to.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Nicole Hardiman: Previous role. They swept the national trust and we just talk about Tech Phobic people because National Trust has a lot of volunteers and we'd quite often say that some of the folks there with Tech Phobic So You'd need to approach the problems with them in a different way and I am scared that we are creating. Generations of people who are still tech-fabic.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, because we try and as you say we we mystify it and and layer it in in Acronyms and C cleaky kind of words and and we paint the picture if you look on films and things the the person that's trying to diffuse the bomb.
Nicole Hardiman: Are.
Nicole Hardiman: On.
Joanne Lockwood: Is kind of geeky and or the person trying to hack the world or break into the mainframe is portrayed as being really complex and and yeah, if you're in if you're in Tech world. You know that if they show on the screen is completely made up and you can't do it though. You can't just push a button to connect to the entire systems and.
Nicole Hardiman: Let's not x.
Joanne Lockwood: Hack and stuff but know I'll just think back as you're talking there. You know we we go back to Ada Lovelace you know, ah who was arguably well is is was the the first computer programmer very instrumentally even a programming language was named after ada and i.
Nicole Hardiman: We.
Joanne Lockwood: When I was in my early career I learned Aida ah, which is very similar to pascal if you've ever done pascal. Um and it was completely alien to me at the time it was because we were were doing embedded um systems into chips and and blowing eproms at the time and.
Nicole Hardiman: Um.
Joanne Lockwood: Ada was used as the cross compiler to generate the machine code never to put into these these flight systems and then I also thinking about the yeah, the movie that came out four or five years ago called hidden figures about the the black women who took part in the in the american space program didn't they and in those days.
Nicole Hardiman: I Love that movie.
Joanne Lockwood: It was typing typing was a woman's job so the original data processes the original computer operators were all women and therefore and a lot of the mathematical calculations were performed by women and we can see classic examples if you go back even further here we look at Bletchley. Look at what happened to the code breakers during the war. How the government attracted people by using cryptography type adverts in the evening news or the the papers around crosswords and puzzles to get these people in and because the men were oft fighting and on the front women were the people who were left to hold the fore and they were allowed to shine. And they were allowed to be intelligent and be clever and show their skills so somehow along the line. This woman's work women's job got usurped by men I don't know maybe in the mid 80 s maybe because I've got friends I went to school with one was a. Ah, kicks developer for Ibm Hurssley who became a master inventor and had numerous patents registered under her name and she's now a visiting professor at sheffieldd university and she is right in the middle of of this software data programming.
Nicole Hardiman: Well.
Joanne Lockwood: Um, and very influential certainly in ibm and some of the other work. She's been doing she collaborates on open source now and does a lot of projects across the world. So when did it become not ah a female subject when but was that in the 80 s or was it before.
Nicole Hardiman: I think it's fascinating I think in the eighty s I think we we definitely didn't have well we we didn't I was going to try and suffer a sugar face it then but I'm not going to. We did not have an inclusive culture in the 80 s let's just be flat. Um, and I think it was really difficult then I mean if even. In the 90 s when I started. It wasn't really seen as a thing I you know I have been in the meetings where somebody has suggested I take the notes because I'm the female or can I get them a coffee place. No I'm not going to put it without but that's my personality type. Um I will tell somebody to go and get lost. Maybe not know what um but I was I was talking to somebody recently who who'd had something very clumsy said to them something well-meaning but very clumsy and it's it's just. Even even the language becomes very uninclusive. Let's go with that. Um, but from from where it came from I think it it must have been around the 70 s or the 80 s where everything was. Extremely powerful. It was extremely heavy going. There was you know very wolf of wall street kind of stuff and everybody was dressing in power suits with shoulder pods and ridiculous things in the ages. That's the one.
Joanne Lockwood: Of the shirts with the white collar and the sort of striped shirts or the Banker shirt. Yeah I remember those? yeah.
Nicole Hardiman: And I think it just became a really toxic place to be because everybody was competing and it's It's not a comfortable place and if if that's somewhere we or you're really not comfortable being then I think that's it's something we sort of took a step back from.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Nicole Hardiman: But now I'm not sure exactly when it happened but it you definitely did I would listening to ladies now talk to me about why they might want to leave technology. It's often about competition and 1 ne-upmanship and trying people trying to you know. Put people down to get ahead and I think the 80 s was very much that.
Joanne Lockwood: Is there still a situation for younger women and probably in their teens and 20 s where they they can't necessarily invest the same sort of time a man can because the family commitments because the home expectations if they want to have a relationship and a family. Ah, tend to be the default when it comes to the home. Ah, admin doesn't so when you're trying I mean I remember when I was developing my I career I I I'd lock myself away for hours and suddenly realize it's three o'clock in the morning I'd be in work until I got kicked out by the security people at midnight whenever. And I think that sometimes it sort sucks you in the technology because it's always there. You can always do more? Um, do you think that that plays a factor is it availability of time.
Nicole Hardiman: I think it definitely does I think there's there's something really key there actually because I think and we've seen it through the pandemic where our engineers and I'm not going to say all of them because I think that there's a. Are becoming a more progressive society and I think there's a lot of people who are doing their their fair share of the childcare and all the rest of it. Um I've certainly had 1 to ones with engineers that I look after one of the guys we had a 1 to 1 with whose 5 year old sat on his lap and that was fine. You know we managed. I talked to this young lad about his rock quite a lot before I managed to speak to his dad about his programming but you know that that was all right, but for the most part it's been the ladies that have had to bear the brunt of that childcare and the homeschooling and all of the rest of it and I have conversations with them so I look after other engineers.
Joanne Lockwood: Martin.
Nicole Hardiman: Now at this point in my career. That's what I do um and I spoke to a lady who also does that and she said well I wanted to move more into management because I just couldn't keep up with the tech anymore and I saw what do you mean? she said I don't have time in my life to be able to do all of the things that the guys count and and she. Said that straight to me so I was like why I haven't really thought about it that way before because if you look at where there aren't larger numbers of ladies in technology at the moment. It's those very junior levels where we've put some work into the grassroots and put some working to school and people are starting to come through the system now.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Nicole Hardiman: But as soon as you get to like a mid-level developer. They become invisible. They go right? they disappear and you know I I hear people talking about things like you know they went on maternity and they didn't want to come back into a technical job because. Technology moves so fast. They haven't been able to keep up and now they were a year behind because they've taken time out to have a family which you know as employers we need to look at to make sure that that's something that we can help people with because you know with the right buddy system with the right access to training with the right? you know. Availability of having some actual time in your day job to say right? We know you've had a year off these are the things that we've moved forward with this is some training you can do. We're going to give you time to get back up to speed because they're brilliant people and they really understand the foundations of it I mean you know. Having a baby doesn't make you not a technologist which is you know and and people are leaving the industry because they really feel they can't keep up which is terrible so we end up with fewer and fewer senior technical ladies which is is really difficult because those senior decisions are then made completely. By guys and we end up with things like I think the Iphone thing was fairly well documentcumented where you know the design team should basically created a phone that was the right size for a man's hand but a lady tends to they were finding women drop them more often. So um, yeah, things like that or I've seen things where um. Color schemes have been put in and they're saying you know this pink stuff is for women and I think gosh if you'd have had one woman on your tech team somebody would have said away that's a great idea. Um, so you know and we're missing that we're missing the way that. You know we navigate things differently? um um I've read study recently saying that we navigate websites in different ways. So if that's the case then the navigation is only being put in by guys because they're the only senior engineers that are around so how do we change that up and make sure that everybody's represented and that we can. You know work in a way that works for everyone and not just they copying the same demographic as the tech teams because they tend to be middle class middle age white guys.
Joanne Lockwood: And that that is definitely I mean you're pointing out there. The the Ux the the user interface you're right that this seems to be a very structured standard approach to things and that. It's not only ah, a male female thing. There's a neurodiversity thing. There's a a dyslexia thing. There's ah a colorblind thing. There's accessibility Dexterity Hands. So If if it's thinking in a very monologue so way we're not, We're not seeing the needs of others. Not.
Nicole Hardiman: Um, absolutely.
Joanne Lockwood: So by at least recognizing that you need different voices, different views different opinions. You're going to get a ah better product. That's more relevant to the to the end user The person's trying to engage with aren't there. Okay.
Nicole Hardiman: And I think the way of thinking I mean um, we had ah an engineer recently? um, not female definite guy but he'd come from a different. Um. Ah, different background So Most of my engineers will come up through computer Science. They'll do a very standard degree. They'll go through very standard you know route into where they're Going. Um and the engineer that I'm talking about who come up and he was their Bookck player and who's gone from being a bricky to being a techie and he's brilliant. Really really, really good, but he approaches every single problem in a completely different way to all of my techies because he just didn't come up that route So He's not constrained by some of the things that the others would be.. He's not ah but we've always done it like that because he's never seen it like that So he's just going to do it the way that makes sense to him which was.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Nicole Hardiman: Brilliant I Really love that approach. You know having people from different backgrounds from different like say different neurodiversity status. Um, and if you come in with a different life experience and you bring something different to that team that enables you to work as a team differently and and for me my. Experience becomes richer and you've got more because of the visibility that you have you've you've got more likelihood of making something that's a brilliant product. So organizations are missing out. But again, the people that they're looking to grab are such a small pool that they need to start really early.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Nicole Hardiman: In the schools to start encouraging people demystifying this technology to say do you know what? you can come and do this because what you bring to the table is super valuable and I don't think we do that.
Joanne Lockwood: Do you think schools are us starting to focus on this I mean I I don't think we in 2022 with all the what I know about schools and there are new initiatives around the kind of degendering the experience just do you see that schools are up a. Influencing younger generations of of of stem and tech people.
Nicole Hardiman: I think they're trying to but I think I read something really recently about Jordan the country um having better laws around homosexuality than the Uk did twenty years before we we. Legalized and and made everything more sensible. Um, but in reality as a gay person in Jordan then there was more of a likelihood of you being harassed by the police because despite what the law said the cultural the social norms still didn't agree and I think we're a little bit I mean that's. Extreme example. But I think that's a little bit where we are with school. There is a you will you know, not genderize subjects and therefore you'll allow all the students to go and do whatever it is that they want to do but we're still in a society that's gonna say. You know what little girl you shouldn't be playing with that action man you should have this dolly and it's something that's really built into us and it's going to take a long time to to come back from there.
Joanne Lockwood: I Often we talk about having antenatal classes and I would like to see pre-parenting classes where parents are actually kind of encouraged to think in a in a genderneutral way about the aspirations. They're setting for their children.
Nicole Hardiman: Me.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm not talking about transed on Http://binaryalgaeptq plus stuff here I'm just trying to say let's try and create this aspirational level playing field or or boost aspirations of young girls to have more. Belief that they can be who they want to be and what that might mean because I I think we are still spoon feeding our children the blue and pink the the girl and boy stuff gender reveal parties the toys Everything we're doing everything we're doing is is is probably is promoting and propagating the.
Nicole Hardiman: Um, yeah, oh gosh. Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, gender stereotyping and we we know that by time you get to 7 8 nine ten those stereotypes are almost locked in to the child's vision of of their future and it takes a very forward looking set of parenting to really fight against the world. Yeah, we've only recently seen in the last 3 or 4 years Disney Pixar producing content that is creating aspiration for for young for young girls and young women. We're still seeing stereoty typing women in movies behaving like men but with type pants on.
Nicole Hardiman: Um, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: For the benefit of the men. So it's still sexualizing and and someone told me once that I never thought this before but the film bugsy malone if you remember Bugsy Malone with the splurged guns. It was like a kid playing gangsters and they've really rejected that film because what it was doing to it was sexualizing. Young teenage girls to be hanging off the shoulder of it of a young man sort of thing and I and I thought wow that's ah so insightful. So we becoding these messages into the young people's heads from very early eight this is your role. This is your role and that's. Kind of a god take responsibility for so kind of bringing that out of the system and where so.
Nicole Hardiman: Yeah, and it's really difficult I mean I love what you're saying about the Disney stuff I mean I know nobody can see behind me at the moment but behind my head there are three Disney princesses and they're the modern ones they are about you know, breaking tradition and moving forward with your own thoughts and and working hard and and.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Nicole Hardiman: You know, achieving things rather than waiting for somebody to come and save you and I think you know the the narrative is changing. Yeah, the narrative is definitely changing I think it's really important to make sure that we're doing that with our young people. But you know.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, the snow white even beauty. Yeah.
Nicole Hardiman: It's so ingrained because you know Grandma's still gonna buy dollies for the little one when I was a kid my mum until I was about 7 my mu refused to buy me trousers to which point I didn't carry to go and climb trees in my skirt and get in terrible trouble. But um, there's a. Ah, real sort of difference between me and my sister so I was once I was in my trousers I was allowed to have a computer because that's what I wanted to do I wanted to play games. My sister was brought up with lots of dollies and she had a pram. My sister's got a large my children which means I don't have to have any. Um. But you know that works for us. That's what makes her happy. This is what makes me happy. But um, it's it's a real difference and you know even my own upbringing I can see that sort of change because I I can't even imagine doing what she does I mean that takes ah a level of strength and emotional foritude that I probably don't have. But she's great at that and she thinks what I do is some kind of black magic. So I think it's it's something we need to just again there there are those weird barriers aren't there. We need to break it down.
Joanne Lockwood: And yeah, there's so many women in in their twenty s thirty s and even early 40 s who almost feel apologetic for not wanting to have children for whatever reason that may be and it seems almost like you're failing as a woman to not do your part. And I've met many women who've constantly have that microaggression of having to explain themselves all the time I don't want them.. It's not that I'm Gay. It's not that I haven't found somebody I Just don't want children if that's okay with you and yeah, it's fine.
Nicole Hardiman: Yes.
Nicole Hardiman: It creates a real strange reaction with people actually I was um I went on a work conference and I ended up flying home on the same plane with ah with a customer and we heard we. We talked about techie stuff. We talked about um geospatial design software that avoid clashing in factories. Very boring. Um, and on the way home on the plane because it was it was in Vegas which sounds really really lovely, but it was really not because it was very customer focused I didn't think I did anything fun, but um, we flying home and he was talking to me and and we were talking about things I was like oh I don't mark kids and he just almost. Blank to me at that point. How could you be so selfish what a terrible thing to do. That's really awful I said no no, no selfish should be having them when I didn't want them I'm not having kids I'm not being selfish I'm just care who's going to look after you when you're older I was like well across that bridge when I come to it I don't know. But he was absolutely horrified that I would not want kids and I've never had that kind of reaction from someone before very strange. Um.
Joanne Lockwood: And. But that's that that that's repeated time time Again. There's his expectation isn't there. Yeah, why aren't you engaged when's the wedding when you're gonna yes, ah and it it plays out time time again.
Nicole Hardiman: It really that I mean when we got married that was one of the first things when he having the babies. So what if we don't.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah I will admit to our daughter got married last year and my wife and I were quite excited about the fact that they're planning a family that is on their radar. We didn't say we but you must you must you must. We were. We were very conscious about the fact we didn't want to put your pressure on we understood. The the risks that people go through and the emotional stress of it being difficult. Whatever it may be so we were very conscious about the fact that we didn't want to sort of see that idea but and we said is it okay to talk about the fact that you' think about having a family openly and then went. Yeah, yeah, please we want to talk about it. So.
Nicole Hardiman: Moves.
Joanne Lockwood: So we we don't even want to put pressure on and I've worked in environments where there was a sweep stake on a woman who just got married about how soon she was going to leave to have a baby and people had a sweepstake on it and people are quoting from anything between yeah, three months to a year
Nicole Hardiman: Oh gosh, no.
Joanne Lockwood: Before she could pick any pregnant there was I remember it being very open but not not obviously publicly open but men would generally talk about it wasn't ah so if that if I'm aware of that It must happen more often than than not ah I think also about.
Nicole Hardiman: In.
Joanne Lockwood: I mean I tend to transition five six years ago now I forget when and I've noticed myself that I've I dumb myself down not to appear too clever in certain situations. So I'm I'm a professional speaker I travel the world with laptops and cables and a v get and I'm pretty. Ran I t company for 30 years I'm pretty technically competent in terms of self-sufficient. But I find I turn up some venues. It's just easier for me to go oh could someone help me plug this in because I'm not sure what I'm doing something thing because there's people there to deal with all that and I I don't know why am I playing the stereotype am I oh i. I just taking advantages of those helps there I don't know but sometimes if I I feel like just saying like come on. Let me deal with it. You want you're making a hash of it I could do this pet then you go by Thekacope oh come on you. You do it then.
Nicole Hardiman: I mean I've I've done that myself I have done I remember um I think we've got new monitors in work sometime ago might not even been this work I can't even remember where it was and um, the new monitor came with a usbc connection and I was thinking that. 1 of my guy here was my H Dmi cable I need to plug all of this in and and I haven't really thought about it and I obviously hadn't had enough coffee that day and somebody said to me give it in. Let me do it. And I said fine I shall be a princess then and just stand over here and made a big deal out of it made him feel really awkward which probably wasn't the best way to deal with it but it will also just just take it make it go away make it sorted out which is you know. I probably um, more techy than he was saying. Yeah, it's very weird then um.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, or maybe maybe it's just a realization that I'm there to do this job not to do that job and maybe maybe it was just a realization that you're that you're paid to worry about the technical stuff I'm but I'm paid to speak and inspire. So Maybe I should. Just do what I do best and let you do what you do best if I don't absorb the stress of the whole thing. Maybe maybe that's what it was so.
Nicole Hardiman: Maybe it was a really interesting thing I listened to it I think it was a radio full podcast I can't remember um but there was um, ah candola is the guy's surname I can't remember his his first name but he does a lot of it on inclusion and diversity and um, he was talking about. Organizations that get their gender balance right? at a senior management level. So if you do end up with fifty fifty or forty eight 48 and 4 or whatever that happens to be yeah um and um.
Joanne Lockwood: And some the binary people as well. Yeah.
Nicole Hardiman: And he talked about if you create this program where you eventually get to ah for shorthand I'm going to say fifty fifty that you know I mean if you get fifty fifty then um if you leave that certain amount of time it goes back to being predominantly male. Because the bias doesn't just exist inside the men it exists inside some women as well. You know we've been brought up that way. Um, and it's not a self-perpetuating thing if you get to fifty fifty it doesn't carry on inuity first Tuesday because you've got women on the board or whatever they don't automatically hire more women.
Joanne Lockwood: And and.
Nicole Hardiman: Um, I find that really fascinating because I definitely see that you know it's not just board level. It's everywhere and it's how we start lifting each other up to make sure that we do get those you know opportunities and we don't sort of.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Nicole Hardiman: Take a step back and go on I know you do it and we're all guilty of it. We all do it.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I was I was on a plane flying back from someone I can't know where or when but I was with 2 other female kind of colleagues who were going to his conference and when the pilot did the pilot announcement. The pilot was female and the the 2 of whom I sit next To. Looked to each other went and they're almost like freaking themselves out but we just heard of people about pilot and we're more worried than we would have been if it as a male pilot just so we started analyzing this what what was going on in our heads about we we were I and D professionals if you like.
Nicole Hardiman: As.
Nicole Hardiman: Um.
Joanne Lockwood: Questioning the fact that a female pilot came on and we weren't thrilled. We were kind of more nervous so you're right? So we have own group Bias we have we look at other women and say you see women it tends to view mens as being more authoritative they had the deep voice the way men men speak.
Nicole Hardiman: Um, yeah.
Nicole Hardiman: Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Height advantages their physical browwess seen as more competent and reliable. So yeah, ah women who speak softer with upticks or with modulating voices seem less confident therefore you less trustworthy therefore you're not going to have faith in them and and those are the those built in biases that. Really almost impossible to shake isn't it.
Nicole Hardiman: There's there's 2 things there I think there's I've I've been on a lot of unconscious bias or workshops recently it's obviously all organizations are trying to make their I and d after they're looking for inclusion to be a real focus for them and where I work is is no exception. But what I tend to see is we get on these workshops and it very quickly becomes a man bashing session and it shouldn't because bias exists in everyone and we need to acknowledge that and if we don't acknowledge that we're just perpetuating the problem so that's 1 thing but you're you're right about. Um, people who speak with authority and people who are a little bit softer and from a technology perspective I see that in a scrum situation. So when you do software development in scrum you have um, two weeks sprints you have a planning session up front where everybody's supposed to have input. And at the end you have a retrospective where you talk about what went wrong and what went well and how you can do things better the next time and in that planning situation if you're a quiet person. You don't get a word in because some of those folks are quite big and bullshy and they're very loud and they're very confident and if you're. And and that's not just female thing if you're just generally quiet or shy person then it's really hard to be heard or be seen and I think the same happens with Retros you can say.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Nicole Hardiman: I Don't think this worked very well and we didn't work very well together and I think there was you know something behind that and I'd like to explore it and work through it for next time if the other person is then big and loud and overbearing then that can really be quickly being Well, That's you,? You're very quiet you you Know. You took it to heart and you shouldn't have we just carry on and then for you never get heard I think that's it's so important to make sure that his voices are heard and you know if you've got a really good scrum master he was He was the person who officiates all these things if and believe doesn't Know. Um. Then that's great because they can say no that that's a really valid then and we need to listen and we need to work through that. But usually you know if we if we're gonna talk about Bias and thererumasters tend to be I see more women in that role than I see guys at the moment. So if somebody's really overbearing and talks over the top of them. How much sort of interjection. Do. We actually get so it becomes really difficult I don't know what the answer is I wish I did.
Joanne Lockwood: Know So they're seen is less effective. Maybe not selective for the bigger projects because people see them as they're okay for the little stuff we got representation but they really haven't got the gravitas if you like to they've got the bigger projects.
Nicole Hardiman: And.
Nicole Hardiman: Um, yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Even though they're probably more thoughtful but empathetic more collaborative more inclusive themselves. They're just not seen as having that authority.
Nicole Hardiman: Yeah, and in some place that person could have their own bias in which case they will take a step back and let the land people speak up.
Joanne Lockwood: We and and but we do. We do see that I think we were talking about just now about how our own group bias we're not, we're not pushing ourselves forward and yeah, the crabs in the bucket. The queen bee the super chicken. All these kind of. Tend to Peck at people and and push them down for stealeding our space or making ah damaging our brand because I'm I'm good and actually I don't want to give you space to become good as well. Okay.
Nicole Hardiman: Um.
Nicole Hardiman: I think Queen beers is a real phenomenon in technology I think you know there have been so few ladies in that tech space that it's it's very easy to almost create yourself a special status because you know if you're. Female and loud enough and the word I'm going to use is gobby I'm not going to be frightened of it. Let's I've been there and I have done it. Um, if you're that person and you've got that bigger voice then it's really easy to say you know this is me I'm representing I'm doing a thing but as soon as somebody else comes in. They're not as loud or if they're not as big. You know it's it's really easy to sort know what they're not doing what I'm doing. They're not helping us how do we move it forward from there and I think it's real hard I think you know you sometimes see it when you do um interviews and recruitment. And I think some people almost expect it if you're a female interviewer I think they sort of come in and they almost get a little bit more quiet if they see a female interview at a text space which is we've tried really hard in my current organization to make sure that um, our interview panels are diverse so there there are people with different. At least trains of thought diverse trains of thought on an interview panel. But I've been to to interviews where there's been a lady and they are very very almost over the top getting close to aggressive because they're trying almost like trying to prove a point and you'll get through a little bit and then. It almost tones down and you can have a normal but human conversation. But it seems to start not everybody of course not everybody but the haves been in situations where they seem to start very loud, very aggressive and almost like that. This is my authority. This is my space and I'm gonna you know I feel like I have to do something to own it. But then.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Nicole Hardiman: I Think you can get past that bit but it's it's whether people have the energy or the inclination to get past that and find the human being underneath.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I was in a run training facilitat training last week and one of the it was a mainly female cohort on this train that I was running ah 1 of the one of the women in in this cohort was very senior in the organization. And she presented this very tough hard exterior and almost like scary. Ah and I over the course of the facilitation workshop she opened up about a lot of ah her previous history in her background and she became very human very vulnerable at that point but that definitely seemed to be something that.
Nicole Hardiman: Is.
Nicole Hardiman: In.
Joanne Lockwood: Because of her role she needed to be aloof scary and and almost dominating and I guess that's learned behavior but by fighting in a man's world.
Nicole Hardiman: Um, yeah I think and and I'm I'm going to generalize who who will have to forgive me but I think if you look in tech companies. There are certain ladies who've got to a a certain level of seniority and they are basic emulating men. They are. They're being a guy and they're not being themselves and I don't think that helps support the wider female tech population because I just think that you know it it so shouts that the way to get ahead is is to be 1 of the guys and I don't think you need to do that I think. I mean if if if I look around my current organization. It is something that it is taken me a little while to be okay with but there seems to be a senior leader cookie cutter. So if you're female. They seem to all have the same haircut. They seem to all wear the same dress. They all wear the same shoes. And they all have the same speech pattern and I not like them and it took me a really long time to think oh my gosh I not like these other ladies. How am I ever going to progress. It's going to be terrible. It's gonna be really well and all of a sudden I realize I'm not like them. How amazing is that.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes.
Nicole Hardiman: But it took me a long time to figure that out. It took me ages and you know I'm I'm in Myff voice and to to wait that long I don't want other women to have to wait that long I want them to see that whatever they bring to the table is the best thing that they can bring and they don't have to be somebody else. You don't have to pretend to be a black to do that.
Joanne Lockwood: It's It's really interesting. You say that because when I was going through my gender transition I was chasing this aspiration of womanhood. What I thought it is you say the cookie cutter the the shoes the dress. Whatever and I. I was chasing these ideals about how one should behave and to be accepted and what I realized was as I was running this way. The smart money was running the opposite way saying actually I want to be myself I don't want to conform I don't need to be defined by by how I look how I sound how I dress and that I. I Put the brakes on the so hang a minute I'm I'm chasing an Id an idealist being somebody else I didn transition to be myself. Not be somebody else and that was the realization I had suddenly I think hang on a minute I don't want a transition to be somebody else I Want I transitioned to be me so I parked myself or but who am I. How do I want to look how do I want to dress and thats that was empowering but not everybody is able to just whack the stop button on the escalator they they just keep going to the Destination. Don't they.
Nicole Hardiman: Yeah I think you see it a lot and I think you know there is a a society will need to conform I mean it's um, well it's it's all around social Identity theory If you if you want to dig into some of that stuff. But it's it's fascinating to me and it's very.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Nicole Hardiman: Social Identity theory is is one of those things. It's really important that you know society has that because it makes us all drive the same way on the road. It means you you don't stand up in a theater and turn around the other way and start talking to random people because Society doesn't agree with that sort of thing but it also causes us problems if you go back to the the blue and pink tories. That's what society says we do girls get pink ones boys get blue ones and that's where we're moving forward from it's it's it's fascinating to see how that then affects us. Yeah, not just in the workplace. But you know in the you know do you become one of these cookie cutter people who are. Followed the thing and they've done fashion and trends and staff I would rather be me and be comfortable. But I Also recognize that that's not going to work for everybody that I look after and support so I need to make sure that if that's.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Nicole Hardiman: How they'd like to be then I support them the best that they can but I would love for them to understand who they are underneath rather than trying to go for this ideal which I don't think works anyway.
Joanne Lockwood: And I agree what you said earlier about some of these I and DEdiSessions tend to end up being a white male batching session and here's very derogatory terms I get really really passionate.
Nicole Hardiman: A.
Joanne Lockwood: In same way I think you are that we can't be inclusive by demonizing another group and if we're not careful when we end up doing is saying you're the problem. Actually I see people who hold the power and the privilege as being the solution not that they may they may hold the keys to the problem.
Nicole Hardiman: Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: But they were actually they hold the keys to the solution as well. Because yeah I look back? Yeah hundred odd years ago women were allowed to vote by men. So we we hate that I hate that phrase women were allowed to vote by men but men held the power men had the parliament men had the mps men had to vote to allow women to vote and it's like. Sounds so crass now but in order to make real change. We need the people who have the keys who have the power who have the keys in the castle to put the drawerbridge down and start those discussions in the same way that white people have a responsibility to work on racism anti-racism able-built body people have have have the responsibility to. Create systems and processes for disabled people, etc, etc. So the people hold the power and the privilege must take responsibility and I think we need men in the conversation and the number of times I go to I and d events webinars panels and 99% of the people attending are women.
Nicole Hardiman: Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: We we end up in our own echo chain. But we're trying to solve the women in stem of and trying to solve the women's representation trying to fix sexism what we? what? we'd never do is we never have the people who can check make the change in the room with us and I but I was I was ah, not not to location dropy odds in San Francisco I was I was on a panel at a conference there and the panel was out around gender equality in the workplace and I remember looking out into the audience 6 or 700 people in rows and rows of chairs I just sort of van to the audience. Can we just have a look around us how many men are in the room and it was like 5 or 6 men out of 600 women where are all the men. The men are are learning about software and and sis and other things in the other room. Why do we make change this is back to you Nicole how do we make change unless we get people listening who can make the change.
Nicole Hardiman: It So So difficult So My current organization have started the women in tech group so that we can have a a place where people don't feel so lonely that you know there are other people going through the same thing that you're and um I am asked quite frequently. Where's the men in tech group I was like you are more than Welcome. Come and join the women in tech group The women in tech group is not for women and it's not for techies. So It's for people who want to support women through their technology journey. Whether that's whether they're just curious or whether they are super into the code and they are you know they can in binary or whatever they do when they're going to sleep. Um. And I've been really clear I think inclusion means everyone you can't take somebody out of that equation and as I mean in technology women are a minority group if you you can't take a minority group and then solve that problem when the majority of people are not going to be involved in solving it and. It's a really really difficult thing to do. Um, yeah I have heard of a lot of people who are on the public speaking circuit who will not do the women only conferences anymore because exactly like you say we become an echo Chamber We talk about the problems. We talk about how things can't be solved. Without the support of the people who are not in the room and we've we've got to do this together I mean um, when I talk about inclusion and diversity I always put the eye first because let's include all of us and then hopefully we become more diverse. We're not diverse and then we'll include people. It doesn't work that way Around. Um and it's allowing everybody to have a voice and standing up the allyship piece is really key when you see the problem somebody needs to shout about it and that doesn't need to be somebody of the same. Diverse characteristic it means to be everybody in the ring going hey that wasn't Right. Don't do that and it's It's a really really tricky thing to create the psychological safety for somebody to call that out. It's it does start with everyone. It doesn't just start with. These are the people feeling the pain it needs to start with everyone.
Joanne Lockwood: And psychological safety. One of the fundamentals of there is is is being a being allowed or feeling in power to speak up to give your view and most importantly to be listened to and respected for your your perspective. It have to be agreed with or not saying you're always right.
Nicole Hardiman: Absolutely.
Joanne Lockwood: But allowing your deb to be able to express that so people can hear you and that's that that's I see a lot of people who don't want to speak up for fear of victimization for fear of retribution for fear of being seen as as not good enough. So for saying something or oh come on. Everyone knows what we're talking about here. Why do you need to say something first.
Nicole Hardiman: Yeah, it's it's really difficult and I think you get the opposite then so I've recently in the past couple weeks started a new job and I have had at least 1 person go oh well, they needed to hire woman into that space so you've probably got it because of that it's like no let me tell you how awesome I am. That's where I've got this job but it's the mindset that comes with it that goes with that then we create a whole other set of problems which is is again really difficult because I've now in a position where I need to prove how great I am at this job.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, yeah.
Nicole Hardiman: Because everyone assumes I've only got it because I'm female.
Joanne Lockwood: So that's a real dilemma and and I've I've I've had conversation with other people about who've walked away from positions because they felt they got it because they're a woman. Um and I I suppose what I said to them was why not take it and celebrate it.
Nicole Hardiman: On.
Joanne Lockwood: Because a man will get it because he's a man. So why? not why not a woman take it because she's a woman. It seems fair to me and as as ah as a Trans woman I know I've been tokenized in various I've been included because I'm Trans but I also think of all the times I've been excluded.
Nicole Hardiman: Please.
Joanne Lockwood: Because of who I am so why not cash in my my chips where where they're available and and be unapolitic. Go I'm here This is now my space I can occupy this I can have my voice I can be who I am and and and speak oh I can or I can walk away and go and know you're tokenizing me I don't want to be on there. And then with grumble in the background and now i'mm I'm gonna take my opportunity and ah make sure that I use it and and I would encourage other people to say Okay I'm a token I'm a token fine. Great Yay! But better to be me than somebody else. Yeah.
Nicole Hardiman: Um, that a quiy thing is that.
Nicole Hardiman: Let me show you what I can do from here. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And I know it's not easy. It's not easy being for one. The only as you said right? at the beginning that you were you were brought up in a world where you were the not the only woman in the building. Um, who wasn't the cleaner sort of thing and that's the sometimes you have to we have to have a foothold. We have to say.
Nicole Hardiman: There.
Joanne Lockwood: I've got the personal character and strength to do this said I'm going to do this or we have to wait for somebody else and that person maybe ten years later
Nicole Hardiman: I remember having a conversation with somebody and they were like what what do you think about? Um I and d and I said well what I think is I really don't want to be the first person to do anything but if somebody used to be the first to break that barrier. It's down all going to be made. Ah, don't want it to be me because I don't want that situation to have existed before then but if it has to be broken. Let's break. It.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, excellent I Love that I love that So you you got your your dream of the future is equality equity representation I remember the world with the world Economic Forum publish a report around.
Nicole Hardiman: Gender Report teams.
Joanne Lockwood: Gender equity or gender equality and they they were quoting 2074 for the western world 2074 that's I don't know how many was that 50 to 5052 years time can we wait 52 years and then I thought well there's half it 2046
Nicole Hardiman: Gosha.
Joanne Lockwood: Still 26 years time is that hang on it half it again. 13 years is that still too long. It is isn't it so how every time every time we look at those numbers and that that is for the western world if you include Middle East far east and other countries that are less progressive with.
Nicole Hardiman: Um, it's still.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, gender equality where up to hundred fifty two hundred years plus to before we create this change and what's going on in Russia and Ukraine right now we to see that's a a very male lead thing that's going on this is There's not There's not enough female representation there at all. Otherwise like no doubt we wouldn't have got to where we are today and in this so the pro. Oh yes I know I know but it's a very It's a very patriarchal chests beating situation that's going on but by by a few people and I'm not trying to be to say it's all is all about male problem. But how how do we get? tangible.
Nicole Hardiman: Um I know females can be just as horrible as man. Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: Progress in the next ten years that we haven't achieved in the last seventy or eighty or a hundred or had 200 years
Nicole Hardiman: I think we need organizations and not just commercial organizations but educational organizations to be braver and say right if we start opening people's eyes earlier. Yeah, we might not be able to measure that by return on investment. We might not be able to. Say that this program encourage x amount more people into stem subjects. But I think we've got to start speculatively doing that and making it more open to everyone as an age where you know people can make those kinds of life choices or we start going to places like um. My organization has contact centers where you know people phone up and they put all your details into the various system we go and talk to those people proactively and say John this isn't scary. You are already doing 90% of it because you're using these systems. This is how we bring these people through and you know, really embrace that diversity of thought not just the diversity characteristics that they come with so I think those things are going to be absolutely key in the coming years to really open up the technology sector in particular but it's.
Joanne Lockwood: No.
Nicole Hardiman: It's really difficult because whoever puts the money in might not be the person who benefits. So if we went into schools and did a huge program around helping kids learn more stem. Um my engineers at the moment are helping a um ah consulting organization that we work with work with their raspberry pi.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Nicole Hardiman: Um, challenge so they send raspberry pies out to schools and get the kids to do ah inventing things which is brilliant. They've come up with some really fascinating stuff stuff that the industry is not fixed so helping people do that. But you've got to recognize that. But those kids might not grow up and then want to join that company. They might join somewhere else. They might do something completely randomly different. That's still in the stem field So you've got to put the investment in knowing that you might not get a return on it and it's I think that's difficult for organizations to swallow.
Joanne Lockwood: I I think yeah I think I seen other I've seen organizations start to look at this academy type approach where you're not listening who looking to recruit or nurture into the subject through the school through the University What you're maybe doing is picking up people in there.
Nicole Hardiman: Is.
Joanne Lockwood: Late teens early 20 s who've become lost or maybe returning parents or people mid career pivots and saying look these opportunities exist we've we got global talent shortage we're we're fighting. Weve got the great resignation we got is it's a candidate market at the moment I think the only realistic way is for for employers to. Breed and train their own futures and I think the other thing you're right about is you' got to do it selflessly. You got to recognize that you're not training necessarily just for you. You're training for society to improve the opportunity. So of that social conscience so that by having more underrepresented people. Marginalized communities women whoever we want to talk about here what we're getting. We're reducing joblessness. We reducing homelessness we're reducing mental health concerns. We're reducing reliance on the state. So organizations can be do this as a public service altruistically but yet still benefit so there is still the roi or the return on the academy. Think you're right I think that's that's the key here is organizations have got to think not necessarily 5 in in the future but 20 years in the future about their part and in in the future here. So on that note, um I can't believe we've been chatting for at 1 hour 1 minute and 54 seconds it's it's the time has flame passed and.
Nicole Hardiman: Move stand.
Joanne Lockwood: How do people get hold of you I'm sure people who listen to this would love to have a chat with you and hearing your experiences.
Nicole Hardiman: They can certainly find me on Linkedin my surname's pretty ah unusual. So there's not a lot of Nicole Hardman's out that said they want to find me on Linkedin I'm really happy to chat and and talk through this. This is absolutely one of my my favorite subjects to talk about and say if anyone would like to see that that would be great.
Joanne Lockwood: And if they're in the wilpshire Swindon area. Are you still looking at restarting the ah the I and d swindon network at some point.
Nicole Hardiman: I Think we absolutely will. We've taken a little break because one of our founders has had lovely little girl which is amazing and I think everybody else got quite heavily bogged down with pandemics. We were working from home and working extra hours and covering all those extra things. But yes, it's definitely something that we'll.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Nicole Hardiman: Kick back off and and hopefully we'll get some in-person things going on which will be amazing because I think everybody's got teams fatigue or Zoom fatigue. Whatever you want to call it now.
Joanne Lockwood: So well I'd love to volunteer to come along and and be another one of your panelists or speakers one night if you ever want to invite me back. Excellent. So Nicole thank you I really appreciate that and I'm sure our listeners have.
Nicole Hardiman: Your fold you to that.
Joanne Lockwood: Taking a lot of that in. Um there's an ah awesome amount of content. We've just talked about and I'm I'm passionate about gender quantity I'm passionate about equity and equal for everybody. So thank you for listening please do subscribe to keep updates on future episodes of the inclusion Bites podcast as b I t yes. Your friends and colleagues I'm I'm sure you have plenty of them so please share this the link and make everybody aware I've got a number of other exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you'll be equally inspired by over the next few weeks and months and of course if you think you can inspire people if you haven't got imposster syndrome you and got nimiting beliefs and you'd like to just put your name out. There. Let me know I'd love you to be a guest and as always I welcome any feedback on suggestion that you have to Jo Dot Lockwood a c change happen dot code uk let me know how we can improve future zone. So finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood it's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.