Joanne Lockwood: Hello everyone my name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the inclusion bites podcast in this series I have interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation about the subject of inclusion belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. To join me in the future then please do drop me aligned to Jo Dot Lockwood a c changeapp dot code at uk that's swly http://changeapppan.co.uk. You can catch up with all of the previous shows on Itunes Spotify at the usual places so plug in the adphones. Grab a df. And let's get going today is episode 58 with the title outright optimism and I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Lisa Braithwaite Braithwaite ELisa Braithwaite describes herself as a public speaking coach and trainer whose on a mission to help purpose-d drivenven thought leaders build their. Visibility credibility and awareness for their work when I asked Lisa Braithwaite to describe her superpower. She said it is the ability to make mistakes a mess up in her presentations and yet still recover like a pro hello Lisa Braithwaite welcome to the show.
Lisa Braithwaite: Thank you Jo I'm excited to be here.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, likewise we've planned this in for several weeks and it's finally here the day's finally here. So thank you so much Lisa Braithwaite tell me about your outright optimism.
Lisa Braithwaite: Outright Optimism First of all I will say that I was born this way So not everybody can necessarily. Create the level of optimism that I just happen to be lucky enough to be born with but I just find that I am always able to see the silver lining when something goes wrong I Really can only dwell on it for about a day. And then I'm just back on the bike and going forward again. I Just really see a world where people are valued for who they are seen as contributing members of Society. No matter what they're. Age or Race or gender identity or body shape or size appearance sexual orientation or anything else that is currently feeding so much discrimination and oppression and I have this optimistic outlook that we are making progress. And that we will continue to make progress.
Joanne Lockwood: I I love that ah born this way. That's one of my favorite lady Gagale songs baby I was born this way and i've've I've been in bars and shouted that out at the top of my voice. So many times is such an Anthem So when you when said that I just had this vision of.
Lisa Braithwaite: Ah, yep.
Joanne Lockwood: On Garga saying baby I was born this way and yeah, sometimes let's be proud of who we are and and as you say regardless of who all the characteristics that people like to label people with just be yourself be yeah, authentic, The authentic person isn't it and I've noticed that.
Lisa Braithwaite: Um, absolutely yep.
Joanne Lockwood: On social media recently you've been using this hashtag this is what professional looks like haven't you and because you you okay, our listeners can't see your face here today but you you have ah a a distinct look and you want to so smash that myth that you have to look a certain way to be pro. To be professional.
Lisa Braithwaite: Um, yeah again I was born this way and I do also really identify with that song ah throughout my life growing up as a teenager as a college student as an adult I always felt like I didn't really fit in and a lot of people feel that way for a lot of different reasons I just always felt like a weirdo a goofball I've always been really silly I've always just ah, been just 100% myself I just have always. Breast myself in my own unique way and even though I went through that that whole growing up phase where you feel like everybody thinks you're weird and you don't want to be weird and I used to write things in my journal like. Stop being so weird and I would make new year's resolutions to stop being so weird but at the same time I would also say I need to be more more myself and so I struggled with that like a lot of people. But as I've as I got into the professional world. I really started to look around and just think why am I trying to fit into some thing that is so not me that that's so outdated and let's just say patriarchal and. You know that really it was something that was created this word professionalism something that was created by white cisgender men where people wear ties and suits and and women have a certain kind of hair and wear makeup and heels and and nylons and I just. I started questioning that a long time ago, but it's only been in the past few years where I just let myself completely I decided I wanted to have pink hair. So I now have pink hair and I decided I wanted to shave. Ah, most of my hair off so I shaved most of my hair off and I decided I wanted to get back to the fun bright colors that I used to wear when I was younger and I just I just have found myself. Practicing what I preach I've been telling my clients for decades. Be authentic, be yourself be fully expressed on stage as a speaker and I've been writing about it in my blog and I wrote about it in my book and yet I myself was not as fully expressed as I wanted to be and.
Lisa Braithwaite: It just all came to a head with this hashtag on Linkedin. This is what professional looks like I started seeing other people putting pictures of themselves on Linkedin changing their profile images to look like who they really are with their pink purple hair their tattoos. There are natural afros and and all of these things that people have been sort of hiding and trying trying to fit in and so not showing who they really are and so I've been really identifying with those people and creating this fun little community around this is what professional looks like.
Joanne Lockwood: Because ah, we're we're living in a world where where we're we're hyper visible on social media and this is creating this sort of kind of toxic kind of culture where you have to be perfect and we're we're living in the world of of snapchat Instagram filters perfect skin.
Lisa Braithwaite: Who.
Joanne Lockwood: Faceap where we're We're resculpting our faces and our blemishes to look like almost like the Barbie doll clear sort of image of everything and that's that's really putting pressure on on young women and girls and even people in their older part of their life to to conform isn't it and it's that.
Lisa Braithwaite: Yet.
Joanne Lockwood: You must have felt that pressure as well. I guess.
Lisa Braithwaite: Well, yeah, it's interesting that you brought that up because another place that I find myself trying to be more authentic and more real is around my own issues with aging and body positivity in about 10 days I'm going to be 57 and ah I spend a lot of time on Instagram which is really where ah the worst of these filters and the worst of ageism and appearanceism happens and I started. Ah, showing making videos and showing pictures of myself with my full body. This was hard for me and I said okay so I I get on stage and I speak in front of audiences. Obviously I do this virtually and I do this in person and when I'm on stage in front of an audience. They see the whole they see the whole thing they see my whole body. They see my 57 year old postmenopausal shape you know and so I decided I'm gonna start putting more full body images and videos of myself and I'm gonna put myself out there and say this is. I'm 57 this is what I look like I'm not going to hide it because this is the real me and I'm not going to say oh well when I've lost £20 then I'll start making videos or when I've when I've um. You know, a lot of women went gray over the pandemic and because they couldn't get their hair colored and there are a lot I see a lot of women saying well when I get my hair colored when when I get back into the salon I'll start making videos and I'm just I'm just 100 % against people hiding who they really are and not showing their real selves. So this is another thing that I've been I've been just promoting with my speaking up for change Hashtag this is what professional looks looks like Hashtag this is how you look in the world. Why do you want to try to look like something else.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Lisa Braithwaite: When you're on social media and curate this perfect image when every other day out in the World. You're at the grocery store you're at meetings with people you're you're out in the world looking like what you really look like so this is another big issue for me. And a personal one where I am trying to face my own challenges and get out of my comfort zone by being okay with showing people what a real 57 year old unfit woman looks like.
Joanne Lockwood: So well I'm with you I turned 57 in January this year and I finally admitted I was no longer in my early 50 s or my mid 50 s I was in my late fifty s so I kind of owned that rebrand I'm now I mean I'm in my late fifty s I think 57 is kind of yeah late fifty s so I'm with you there and.
Lisa Braithwaite: Right? yep.
Joanne Lockwood: I went up at the point when I was gender transitioning five six years ago I used to use filters I used to use photos smoothing I used to sort of get rid of the blemishes I'd spend 20 minutes on my photograph before I published it and I think what I realized was that's who I wanted to be but then then I thought hang on a minute. I'm transitioning not to be something I want to be but but to be someone who I am so I was trying to aspire to this image that I wasn't and I think the gender dysphoria the the body image issues I had.
Lisa Braithwaite: Oh.
Joanne Lockwood: Causing me to want to hide who I was but then I found that I had to go out into the real world I had to go to the the supermarket and go shopping that I had to bring my my real self into the world I think by kidding myself. Ah about who I wasn't it made me less happy rather more happy and it created this this this thing and.
Lisa Braithwaite: I.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, for the the listeners. You can't you can't see me but I had a hair transplant I've had my second hair transplant now and as part of that they shaved my head so I've got I picked to be ah, a grade zeroes with a week's growth on it at the moment and I I went through this phase early on but last august. About the need to wear a wig because I wore a wig I had a top who had a hairpiece and weave alling but when I started going to go for the hair transplant I decided that this is the chance to lose that that comfort blanket a of a wig and just be me and I yeah. I'm privileged my brain works in that way. I know I can I can cope with that. But yeah I did cry when they shaved my head I cried I cried but then I went don't be silly girl waky waky this is you I went and I ownd it and when I had the second hair transplant a few weeks ago I they said are you? Okay, if we shave your head I said bring it on bring it on and I don't even feel the need to wear a headscarf a hat. Okay I'll be wearing a hat because it's sunny I don't want to get burnt but I'm not wearing a hat to cover it or hide it. Ah, it's so liberating because if I if I was to wear a wig now or a hat.
Lisa Braithwaite: Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Now all the time there have to come a point where I took it off. Ah what point am I good enough to take it off and that was what's going through in my head rather than get to this point in six months a year time I got okay I'm okay now I could trust myself with that actually every day I live today. One day better I never have to go backwards I never have to readjust my body image I'm always I'm always getting better I can style it I can die I can do I so for me, it's very very empowering just to own my look. Yeah big lipsticks like lipstick like you wear big chunky earrings. Soulle singer look and just go this is me and if you want to look at scars on my head I've had the transplant if it makes you feel like wow so it's gone on here. That's fine. But I'm not scared of it. So I'm completely with you take the wrapper off take take the take the filters off just be you.
Lisa Braithwaite: The.
Lisa Braithwaite: The word you used liberating. That's that's what I hope people will feel by listening to my message and you know by by kind of joining this. Community and joining this conversation I Want people to feel free and liberated and not trapped by some societal expectations by gender socialization. By the norms that we've all been taught are quote appropriate or quote professional and because a lot of the people I work with who are who want to improve their speaking They are so afraid to bring themselves to the stage their whole selves. And yet when we break down those barriers and they do something unexpected but something that really expresses who they are and and they just get so much joy from doing it. It's exactly what they say they feel liberated. And why would you not want to feel liberated. Why would you want to feel trapped I will say that I mentioned gender socialization before and there are all kinds of socialization that we aren't aware of or we're in denial about. And so talking about these issues of gray hair and not wearing makeup versus not wearing makeup I know so many women won't even go outside to pick up their mail without their lipstick and their mascara and when I talk to people about this. They say oh well I enjoy it I. I Enjoy it I do it for myself and I am inviting people to question that are you really doing it for yourself. Do you really enjoy it or do you feel actually a sense of fear if you go to the grocery store without your lipstick. And your your mascara. What's actually going to Happen. What's going to Happen. What are you afraid of? are you doing this now. Granted people do a lot of things because they like it and I understand that I love my lips. I Love my bright lipstick or lip color or lip balm or Lip gloss I have a dozen of them in my purse at all times I Really enjoy it I don't wear it because ah you know society tells me to and I'm also happy to go without lipstick and without any color on my lips.
Lisa Braithwaite: And I do that all the time too. I think a lot of us are just unaware of how strong the gender, especially the gender socialization but all kinds of socialization have been how how strongly we've been influenced by it. And I Just want people to question am I doing this because I really love it and want to do it or am I doing it because I've been told this is what I'm supposed to do and when you allow yourself to kind of open your mind and and.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Lisa Braithwaite: Really look at why you're doing the things you're doing and allow yourself to escape those those rules and those you know ah prescriptions that have been put on us since we were small children. Ah, there's that. That breath of fresh air that freedom that oh God you know why I hated wearing heels. Why did I wear heels every day I hated wearing heels when you really think about it I really hated it So That's where I'm that's where I'm trying to go with this.
Joanne Lockwood: Okay.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, but society says you're not allowed to say you hate heels because that's that's that's selling out your gender isn't it. It's it's it's admitting that heels are patriarchal they're they weren't designed by women for women they were designed by other people and selling out a makeup.
Lisa Braithwaite: Oh yeah.
Lisa Braithwaite: Right.
Joanne Lockwood: To make ourselves look more attractive and feel more attractive for who for men. It's not necessarily just about ourselves is it. It's ah I mean I confess you Know've I've had a hair transplant So that's like permanent makeup isn't it I've also I've had my I've had my my face laser all the hairs removed off my face. So again, that's kind of like a body modification.
Lisa Braithwaite: Um, yeah.
Lisa Braithwaite: Um, yep, but.
Joanne Lockwood: And I've also had that I have lots of tiny veins in my cheeks and though I've got quite red puffy cheeks and things I've had those Quarter Eyes. So I don't end up with puffy red red cheeks Anymore. So I have had what you might call permanent makeup applied to me. Ah, but and I suppose a lot of that is deing and ah. I've I've I've played into those cards as Well. I I needed that for my well-being um, but now I've had it I feel as as we use the word earlier liberated. Um I've reset my authenticity if you like if I'm allowed to do that. Ah.
Lisa Braithwaite: Yeah, yeah, and I I don't want to come across as being judgmental of people who do these things I Just want people to really question and and be really clear on why we do the things we do and if you really.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Lisa Braithwaite: Feel like you do this, you are fully you know capable of making this decision. Yeah I did this because I wanted to look younger and I'm happy with it and I like it and I think we also have to own our own internalized ageism old. Older people and we are now we're closer to 60 than we are 50 which is what I realized when I realized my fifty seventh was coming up I'm really now officially much closer to 60 I have to constantly look at my own internalized ageism if we complain about ageism. Out there in the world somewhere who's contributing to ageism and more than people our age who refuse to have gray hair and refuse to have wrinkles and refuse to look actually 57 or 60 or whatever it is so. Again I don't want to judge people who are who are dealing with their own internalized socialization and ageism a lot of people have their own internalized racism their own internalized sexism. We. We have internalized these things against our own. Selves throughout our lives. It's just it's part of our culture but let's question it let's question it when I find myself talking about my body or my face or my hair or these aspects of aging mi. Saying it's bad to get old I don't want to say that because actually I'm really happy to still be here some of us have you know a lot of people haven't made it to 57 and I have had some experiences where I may not have made it to 57 but I'm here and I'm happy to be aging and I'm happy to still be on the planet. And doing what I do and aging is not bad and if we're lucky enough we all do it. So I just invite people to look at their own internalized ageism sexism racism and all these things that we've been taught are we contributing to it ourselves. And just be aware of that.
Joanne Lockwood: I So agree and that was the saying is ah growing old is a privilege denied to many and so yeah by being old is a privilege The the fact that you've made it that far. The fact you've enjoyed a longer life.
Lisa Braithwaite: Yes.
Lisa Braithwaite: Yep.
Joanne Lockwood: And you're right I think we've set these beauty standards or the societal norms where we see people above a certain age as being less worthwhile because they look old and we see it in movie stars Tv personalities where they feel there's a need to. Use surgery or or other but injections or whatever in order to in order to turn back time and I think there's nothing more beautiful than than a natural aging face. Um that you cannot do with a knife. You cannot do with an injection. It. Our our brains are wired to spot that difference and yes it may help you in the mirror but it doesn't actually change how other people see you. It probably actually it does change how people see you because what it does people know that can tell you've had the process the procedure and it's very rare that people can have a face lift or a tuck or.
Lisa Braithwaite: The the left.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, Botox without someone noticing. It is really rare and I think it's a shame that people feel they have to and I hope I never get to that point why I feel I have to do that.
Lisa Braithwaite: I still I still think I'm not ever going to get to the point where I feel like I need to do that. However I will say you know my eyelids are very very saggy now I just had this big. Puffy eyelid on top of I can't wear I makeup or not that I I like I said I don't really like makeup but I can't wear I makeup I can't do anything because of these big puffy eyelids and there's a part of me, you know that's like wow what if I could just get my eyelids back. What if I could get my eye what if I could my eyes could be more. Open looking you know and I'm I'm not going to lie I think we all have those questions what if I could just fix this little thing or that little thing. I just don't want to go down that path and I'll tell you I started going gray when I was 28 and in those days I was dying my hair for fun I was usually like Hennah or something you know I was dyeing my hair red I was dying my hair for fun. The minute I got a gray hair I said. Oh hell no I am not going to be that person who's still dye in their hair when they're 80 and hence you know I'm I'm low maintenance I don't want to spend the money I immediately was like I am not going to start dyeing my hair to try to cover my gray and I have to give my mom. Um, credit. My mom was always very natural. She aged. Naturally she wore makeup when she was younger but pretty much stopped by her forty s I think she went naturally gray silver she had this beautiful silver head of hair and you know I've been going gray now for 27 almost 2028 years oh what's the mouth I said 28 right? I'm gonna be 27. Oh my god almost twenty nine years I've been going gray and I'm not there yet and I'm actually kind of annoyed with it because I saw these women let all their silver hair grow out over covid and they're just these beautiful full heads of. Silver and white hair and I'm looking at myself I still have so much brown hair. But I you know I let myself I let that go twenty nine years ago the hair thing I'm like you know what I am I just. I don't want to spend the money I don't want to be high maintenance I just don't want to have to do that and then I found oh you can actually dye your hair blue or green or pink or purple and I thought well this is a fun way to color my hair without like.
Lisa Braithwaite: Actually covering my silver because it's just a temporary and so now I have all these great silver highlights and a pink kind of a sheen over it. But you know it's It's this ongoing this ongoing question is am I Okay with.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Lisa Braithwaite: How I look am I okay with aging as ah in a natural way am I Okay, with people knowing I'm 57 am I Okay, with looking like a woman looks as she ages and because our society tells us no, it's not okay. I Still struggle with it even though I'm totally against all the all the hiding and the fixing and the you know trying to look like something you're not I'm against all that for myself. But at the same time I can't help but wonder Wow What if I did just fix my eyes. You know I know I'm not going to do it. But I can't help but question.
Joanne Lockwood: It's nice to have a makeup It's nice to have a makeover occasionally isn't it I've I've done some filming recently for some training material and the the company was doing the filming booked a makeup artist for me and I love spending an hour in the chair have my face done I have my hair done. And it was a wonderful hour in the same way having my nails painted. It's ah it a great way to just take time out for yourself. You can't do anything else. You can't really even play with your phone if you just got to sit there just to take that time that hour of of me time and and that's that's how I look at the nail salon. Look at the makeover times have my hair where I'm doing. It's it's really unequivocal me time and I think that's with ah with ah with a beautification as well.
Lisa Braithwaite: Yep.
Lisa Braithwaite: Oh yeah I had that same experience in December I filmed a course professionally and same thing had a makeup artist full face of makeup. She actually. Did my hair better than I can even do my hair I did tell her that I have problems with eye makeup because of allergies. My eyes are always running and watery and itchy. So I said I really really couldn't do eye makeup but she did put some mascara. And you know and I posted this picture all over social media and I'm like check me out with a full face a makeup I mean look I looked amazing. I'm not ah right? I'm not blind I looked amazing with that full face of makeup. But I don't I don't want to look. Like that every day that's me with a full face of makeup I just want to look like me every day and it yeah, it's like it was like kind of a work of art. You know I kind of looked at it like wow this is what I look like when somebody paints on all the right things on my face and makes my face look like.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Lisa Braithwaite: It would look if it were perfect right? But it's not and I'm okay with that. But I also thought wow this is like this canvas that somebody decorated in a way that is a hey I mean it's pretty It was pretty gorgeous. Ah, but again. That's how when I look like I don't want to have to look like that to go to the grocery store to go to the mailbox to get on a Zoom meeting I just don't want to have to do all that all the time and because it's not really what I look like so it was fun. It was fun like you said I just sat in the chair and I got pampered and i.
Joanne Lockwood: So yeah.
Lisa Braithwaite: Came out of it looking crazy gorgeous. But I think I'm crazy gorgeous already I'm just going to say I'm crazy gorgeous without the makeup and I was crazy gorgeous in a different way with the makeup. Ah I've never called myself crazy.
Joanne Lockwood: So I think I think we all.
Lisa Braithwaite: Crazy gorgeous before by the way that's the first time you're hearing it right here for the first time on Joe's show but
Joanne Lockwood: Excellent, Well let's just go with that crazy Gorgeous I Love that too I think well I think you're crazy gorgeous. So why? not um, covered I think broke a lot of these mantras and the I know many many friends who.
Lisa Braithwaite: I Thank you.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, ditched the hills as we were talking about. They're wearing trainers they're they're not carrying the hes in the bag anymore and putting them on the office. They're just staying in their trainers because I guess we're still working Highbrib we're not in the office every day with doing things where I like you I speak on stage I stand up in front of rooms and train people.
Lisa Braithwaite: Yep.
Joanne Lockwood: And I've I've just got comfortable with my my converse or my my vans or something I've got lots of different colors that match my tights or match my outfit. So yeah I have a brand of trainer color that I wear with something else and ah to me that's part of of you know as as you but we do a hashtag here. This is also professional if you like it we can spend what two hundred bucks on a pair of jeans and people and then then become professional. You spend ten bucks on a pair of jeans from Walmart and there's suddenly that they're not professional. So it's just that this is that that. That perceived wealth thing. Yeah Steve Jobs or Tim Cook or or you know Musk and walk around in a pair of jeans and trainers and he's cool. Um, because that's kind of the irony of coolness isn't it and so you got to we' got to break these sort of unofficial rules that people have created and. But that still exists in corporate America corporate Britain corporate Europe ah the thai culture or the suit culture or the the dress culture I do it so therefore you should do it almost isn't it is that sort of the meritocracy is that this is how we all behave this kind of.
Lisa Braithwaite: Um, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Affinity Bias Similarity Bias We all have.
Lisa Braithwaite: Yeah I think you made a good point about the the women wearing sneakers on stage now and and I have been blown away myself seeing some of my own professional speaker friends in a really sort of glamorous stage appropriate. Dress with sneakers I never thought I would see this I never thought I would see this from people who are still dressing fairly traditionally and conservatively but the shoes have changed and I think that those of us who have the privilege. To do. This should be the ones to lead the way and open the doors for everyone else and and this is again part of that This is what professional looks like campaign is I'm asking the people who and I mean people It's not like I'm the only 1 Saying this.. There's a whole community of people who are out there saying this showing pictures of yourself with your with your visible tattoos showing pictures of yourself with your nons straightened hair I mean I now i've've I know that. Black women for for a long time have been straightening their hair because they were told that their natural hair the way it grows or natural hairstyles that black women like are considered unprofessional What I didn't know is that white women have been told. Curly Hairs Unprofessional white women have been straightening their hair because they've been told Curly hair is unprofessional I didn't even know that So I've been learning so much about different groups and different. You know different. Um. People What they've been told is or isn't professional and I think for those of us who can because our jobs are not at risk because we're self-employed or whatever it is we work for a company that that is open minded and inclusive I think the more of us who can show our. Selves in the workplace on the stage. Whatever it is doing the thing we do challenging these norms I think we're the ones that are going to open the doors for everyone else because we decide what's professional. We need to Decide. We can't have some.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Lisa Braithwaite: Vague notion again of this quote Patriarchy. The patriarchy isn't a person. It's an institution but there are individuals inside of companies and in workplaces it's individuals who can make these decisions and who can. Speak up for Change. So the more of us who get out there and say look I'm ah I'm ah I'm an attorney I'm a judge I'm ah you know again, these are privileged people and I get that but people who are in these visible privileged places The more. We can open doors. People will be able to follow the the other privileged people will stop keeping the doors closed right for the people coming up behind I don't know if I made that sound right? but.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Lisa Braithwaite: I Just feel the like the visibility is such a big part of it.
Joanne Lockwood: Do do you think people have got used to appearing on camera over over covid near the Zoom calls the team calls because I remember going back sort of twenty four months or wherever it was I forget how long ago in the past it was now the the early days there was a lot of reluctance to. But your camera on people were paranoid about their backgrounds their washing piles. their' messy kitchens do you think people have have kind of lost that anxiety or do you think there's still a bit of that reserveness there.
Lisa Braithwaite: I still see a little bit of it I think there are a lot of people who still managed to get away with not having to be on camera a lot and I think there is still some anxiety anxiety and I'm seeing it again as. Speaker trainer coach. It's my job to make my participants feel comfortable. So I always invite them and say I I would like you to be on camera for your own accountability for the collaboration and bonding and connection of everybody in this. Group for me to see a human face. So I'm not talking into the void at the same time I understand if you are not in a place that you're comfortable showing on camera because you only have this one location and it's at your kitchen table. With 30 dishes in the background I fully understand that you know I'm trying to be welcoming and open to I don't care if you've showered today I don't care if you did your hair or put on makeup or if you're wearing a sweatshirt and at the same time I understand if for some reason. You're in an uncomfortable position and you don't want to be on camera or you ah I mean there are a lot of people who just don't have enough bandwidth you know they they live in some remote rural area and they have terrible internet access and if they leave their camera on that's going to make their. Experience less effective I try to take all of this into account. Why people might feel uncomfortable I try to let them know that we're I mean this is my thing right? Let's be real. Let's be authentic. This is what I teach and train and speak and coach on. So. I um can encourage you to show up as your whole full self on camera. There's still a lot of people who aren't comfortable with it and it's okay, I'm still doing my part to invite people to get out of their comfort zone.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Lisa Braithwaite: And do it anyway. Not everybody's there yet.
Joanne Lockwood: There was this gold. There was the the infamous golden rule which has always dressed 1 notch above your audience is it is that is that is that something we were still doing. Do you think didn't that rule still applies or is it I'm gonna dress how I feel.
Lisa Braithwaite: Did you actually see my post about this. Did you see? Yeah I I actually wrote about this just maybe two days ago on Linkedin and of course I made a video because I've been enjoying Instagram reels I'm having a lot of fun.
Joanne Lockwood: I may have I may I did see that the other day but I'd already heard that statement in the past? yeah. A.
Lisa Braithwaite: Making Instagram reels and then writing a serious post that goes with it. Yeah, so I did write this the other day and I I have particular issues with that concept of.
Joanne Lockwood: I've been watching them I've been watching some of them. Yeah, no fascinating. Yeah essay.
Lisa Braithwaite: Of you know dressing 1 level above your audience because I don't feel like that's even accurate anymore I don't know that we have levels and what I talked about in the article is how we used to say. Ah, you know, basically your options are dress. You know for business dress business casual or dress casual like those are the only 3 things and what we're starting to see is that there are so many variations. There's ah, there's ah ah so a. Spectrum of how people dress and it's based on so many things your age your culture your your industry your company the season just all these different aspects of your background and who you are and who your company is and who your industry is that I just don't think we can say there are. 3 ways you can dress anymore. So what I like to look at is yes how will my audience be dressed. So if I'm speaking at a conference I will ask the organizer and they'll say maybe oh you know we're encouraging business casual at this.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Lisa Braithwaite: Conference. Okay, some people might consider business casual a polo shirt and khakis right? That's kind of the traditional male version of business casual women have a little more flexibility so then for me I think ok, what's my version of business casual. You know I can still show up in my big earrings I'm still going to have my pink hair poofed up into like ah a surfer wave I'm still going to wear bright colors but I might be a little more casual in my own in my own look. So I'm kind of I'm kind of saying you should still balance what your organizer wants with who you are as a person you still need to bring your own style your own personality your own vibe to your presentation. And so if they tell you business casual and ah you know a polo shirt in Khakis is not your thing don't wear a polo shirt in Khakis. So I you know I I and I and I don't believe in dressing necessarily when they say above your audience.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Lisa Braithwaite: Anyway I believe in bringing your full express self to the engagement in a way that enhances your message and that might be how you dress also enhances your message. So don't show up in an evening gown if everyone is in you know. Business suits. Ah but try to try to balance what your organizer is expecting of you in the audience with who you are as a ah fully self expressed person.
Joanne Lockwood: But yeah, ah, it's brilliant. Um I was reminded as you were talking there about a client I had probably about a year ago I was doing some consultancy work for them all remote all online and I was having a chat with my contact there. Ah, head of the board meeting that I was gonna kind of present my my findings to the board and I just thought out of respect I'd just say what is typically the dress code of the board are these virtual meetings. Um, am I am I goingnna bother put some makeup on ah and ah ah and a posh frock or or we' just gonna sit here on my t-shirt. She's Thank you so much for asking I was I was gonna mention it to you that I thought you should dress but a little bit better I thought cheeky I thought I always felt like thought oh yeah I was I was probably I was probably playing a t-shirt. It wasn't I yeah, it probably a black t-shirt. So I didn't I don't tend to.
Lisa Braithwaite: A little bit better than you were in that meeting. Oh.
Joanne Lockwood: Sit in front of a camera room in my in my in my home office in anything but maybe a skirt Maybe a pair of leggings Maybe a t-shirt something. Um I'm not nobody else to see me so I did I put some lipstick on and a bit of makeup and I and I put a dress on. Um.
Lisa Braithwaite: Um, same that was cheeky.
Joanne Lockwood: I think I'll probably just put it over the top of my t-shirt to be honest, um, and then I turned up it and everybody all these board members were all in a variety of yeah I think one was in a polo one was in a t-shirt one was and there was this complete randomness ah of dress code and I thought I should just. Me I I didn't need to I didn't need to worry. But I think this plays into this I call it bias by proxy. It's not me. It's them I'm okay what you're wearing but you almost got this nervous as about introducing me to to your friend because I don't fit their norm. And you're almost embarrassed to introduce me sort thing and I think that it was almost like that and I thought afterwards I thought yeah I'm not goingnna do that anymore because I've also realized in life that and maybe again this is ah me speaking for a position of privilege that not everyone's gonna like me there are people who are going to embrace me love me for who I am. How I dress how I show up my deep voice by short hair at the moment and some people just embrace me as a woman and that's fine, but there are other people who get really really confused by it and it goes against everything in their psyche and that they're not going to engage with me. So. Why do I have to worry about people who don't want to talk to me I've got plenty of people who do want to talk to me and what how I dress doesn't really or so the quality of how I dress doesn't impact my likeability. So I've kind of learned now that um, having spent fifty odd years of my life wearing suit and ties.
Lisa Braithwaite: Um, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And it spend the latter 7 years of my life wearing dresses I've kind of broke that so social tour anyway, that people have had to get their head around. So yeah, it's it's immensely liberating empowering all those words we've used already tonight and sorry for for me, it's tonight for you. It's ah it's lunchtime.
Lisa Braithwaite: Um, lunchtime right.
Joanne Lockwood: Um, being on the west coast of the us. So It just puts in context into this. So Yeah I think I think we we do get so hung up and because we want to be Liked. We Want to impress. We want to be seen as valuable by and our close add that value for some reason you know. The right watch the right shoes the right car.
Lisa Braithwaite: I Can tell you exactly why? that is this is what I tell my clients we are social animals We we fancy ourselves you know so far. Ah above animals because we have these big logical brains and we've evolved.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Lisa Braithwaite: To the certain degree but we are still animals. We still have those internal protective mechanisms that that keep us part of the group right? because as social animals. We rely on the group. The herd the pack we rely on that group for our security and our safety this is how humans evolved over time now. You do you pull yourself out of that social. Group by looking different by sounding different I mean just getting up on a stage in front of people getting in front of an audience now you are vulnerable to not just the lions. Who might see you and you're separated from the herd. So first of all the lions can see you and the lions can eat you, but you're also putting yourself out in front of the group in a way that you might be shunned rejected ostracized. And the worst thing that can happen to a human is to be put into isolation and have no group and have no protective community. So. It's an absolutely biological need we have to be part of the group and. When people say when people say oh I'm afraid of you know public speaking or I'm afraid of or I you know I don't want to do this thing I don't want to put myself out there. It's about being judged and criticized and possibly ostracized. I mean that's really what it's about and when when we talk about people judging I look at this as really like I just use this expression. It's like dogs sniffing butts. Okay, so Joanne you're out in the world. You're walking around looking like Joanne. People are looking at you and they're deciding is Joanne my kind of people would I like Joanne would Joanne like me could Joanne be part of my group and we are constantly making those judgments all the time. Because we want to know are you part of my pack. Are you part of my herd are are you dangerous? Are you safe and so that's normal. It's natural. It's biological. But because we're human and we have these big logical brains we can actually then.
Lisa Braithwaite: Look at those thoughts and look at those attitudes and say okay I see where I'm jumping to a conclusion or I can see where I have a bias here and is that legitimate right? So We have the biological urge to judge and to. All these things because we wanted we need to Connect. We need to stay part of the crowd and part of the the herd but we also have the ability to step back and actually look at our thoughts and our attitudes and beliefs and figure out where did this come from and is it legitimate.
Joanne Lockwood: so so I'm I'm sniggering to myself now because I'm thinking I actually don't want half the world sniffing my butt so I'm actually quite comfortable being seen as different in that way because i.
Lisa Braithwaite: Um, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I Don't know about you I've I reckon I've had far more interesting conversations with a far more diverse group of people since I've been visibly different from the from the Norm. Um. There are people who want to associate with you because you're different because you're not the nor because maybe it unlocks an inner desire of their own and maybe if you find it if you're in a big event.. There's always the the stereotypical suited and booted and posh crowd.
Lisa Braithwaite: Um, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: There's the ragtag and bobtails on the outskcots and the ragtab and bobtails. You know the diversity table tend to have more fun. You know we're sitting there. We're laughing. We're enjoying it. We let our our our hairs down our our guards down with we're just being on that authentic and I say I've I've just had far more interesting and engaging conversations with people.
Lisa Braithwaite: Oh yeah.
Lisa Braithwaite: And that's exactly it. We've found our crowd. We found our herd right? because I feel safe and comfortable and connected in a herd of people like you and like me who are.
Joanne Lockwood: Being me? Yeah, yeah.
Lisa Braithwaite: Living kind of fully expressed living out loud as they say I feel that's my heard. That's my safe space and so I think we are still sniffing Butts we are but we're now we're sniffing butts to look for the people who actually look different from each other.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: So yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lisa Braithwaite: Rather than the people who all look alike you know, um I think we still are looking for our herd in our community I mean again I talk about this on Linkedin all the time that this is what professional looks like has become a community a community of ragtag. What did you say ragtag? ah.
Joanne Lockwood: So va ta bob tiles yeah Frank Tank Bob tiles. Yeah
Lisa Braithwaite: Ragtag and bobtails and and you know, ah you know outsiders and but the the more the ragtag and Bobtail Outsiders and weirdos and goofballs come together the more we and I don't want to say we create that as its own as a norm because. Everybody has their own uniqueness. Everybody has their own weirdness and goofballness on the inside. It's just that they're not showing it so I would say the norm would be let's create a new norm of personal self-expression. Whether or not, you're weird or whether or not you have crazy hair or whatever it is is not really the issue are you fully expressing yourself as the person that you really are and the person that you really want to be It doesn't mean you have to go and make your hair pink or or stop straightening your hair or stop wearing suits even just. Who do you really want to be can you fully express that personality that style that vibe when you're at work when you're on a stage etc. That's that liberating feeling we're talking about or maybe you still want to wear a suit and a tie.
Joanne Lockwood: Indeed exactly.
Lisa Braithwaite: But you want your suit and tie to be ah you know, bright orange and bright green like I've been watching the replays of better call saul rewatching the old seasons because the new season of better Call Saul just started and I love his style and he goes from wearing suits and ties. Wearing suits and ties. But the new suits and ties are bright colors and they you know they fit his personality and his style. So again, you don't you don't have to make huge changes. The the goal is to feel liberated and to feel. Free and like you really are expressing yourself the way you want to in the world.
Joanne Lockwood: Indeed and if anyone who's listening is is wondering about the reference of Ragtang and bobtail. It was my my reference came from a children's Tv program when I was very young, probably caught the end of it. It's probably I think it was broadcast on Bbc in the 1950 s and early nineteen sixty s so just just. Probably a bit before my time but' it's it's quoted in Samuel Peps's diary in Shakespeare a Bob Taylor is ah is a horse's tail cut short a tag is a bit of ripped clothing on on a hook or something so it's's it's kind of meant to be that kind of scruffy Raggy Taggy sort of um.
Lisa Braithwaite: Right.
Joanne Lockwood: Non-conforming um, sort of ah people or whatever. So yeah, it's a kind of a a bit I suppose it originally was more of a slur but now I just think it is ah a kind of interesting expression meaning kind of flots of and Jets some of people sort of thing. Ah.
Lisa Braithwaite: It's when you address it's when you address the bad things that people have said about you and you you you accept it as your own right? You take it on as your own. Ah your own description.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Lisa Braithwaite: And I like that. Yeah I mean calling myself a weirdo or whatever it is. It's just I'm a weirdo I own it and I like to own I like to take back those words that used to be slurs and you know.
Joanne Lockwood: So yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah.
Lisa Braithwaite: And make it my own.
Joanne Lockwood: I Yeah I feel I feel the same about the word queer. Okay again I have the privilege not of not having grown up in a world but that was used against me as ah, as ah as a slur or a pejorative term or an insult. So I have the luxury of of maybe coming to that word later in life but it kind of. It means it to me it just means I don't have to live by a predefined rule like I can I can choose to dip in and dip out of social constructs or social norms and where I need to and feel like it and I noticed the title of your book is um. I mentioned your book while we're here is around ditching perfection isn't it and what would say is perfection is the enemy of of good enough or getting it done isn't it and that's the the struggle we go so hung up.
Lisa Braithwaite: Um.
Lisa Braithwaite: Yet I actually use I use the expression in my book. Perfection is the enemy of authenticity.
Joanne Lockwood: But so we're so busy trying to please others or or chase this ideal that we forget maybe sometimes the purpose I guess.
Lisa Braithwaite: Yeah, yeah, because so many people who and I kind of mentioned this before about people not wanting to get on video because they need to lose weight or I mean they perceive that they need to lose weight or they they need to get their hair colored or their teeth are crooked. Or or they they haven't had enough time to create the perfect presentation or whatever it is and there's just no such thing as perfect First of all and you can keep waiting to get ready to get ready to get ready and never be ready and at some point you just have to. Put yourself out there and so the the subtitle ditch perfect ah insights for speakers on ditching perfection and creating connection is all about the fact that your audience just wants to relate to you. You need to be approachable and accessible and a real human being that your audience can relate to so that they can actually take your message and go run with it if you present yourself as somebody who's up on this pedestal and you're so far ahead of your audience and so perfect and so. So fabulous that your audience could never possibly achieve what you've achieved. How is that helpful. How is that helping them. So yeah I'm all about showing up making mistakes ah screwing up just being myself and.
Joanne Lockwood: Out.
Lisa Braithwaite: And letting letting people see the real the real me.
Joanne Lockwood: Amen to that are youmen that I've I've noticed when I was I was looking through your website earlier. There's a lot of lot of resources. So your website is coach http://Lisa Braithwaitebee.com if I'm right and you've got a lot of resources on there for people who want to improve their Speaking. Um. Also in addition, you yeah, you obviously obviously offer coaching but there's a free ebook on there isn't there which people can download and read.
Lisa Braithwaite: There is 21 tips to immediately improve your presentations is my free ebook and it includes little tips like some of the things we've been talking about and other more technical tips about speaking and that is. Absolutely free I also have a blog with over fifteen hundred blog posts on it so that is called speak schmeek and that is that is where my book actually came from about 60 posts from my blog. Ah, turned into my first book I say first book because I have enough posts on there I could probably write 10 books I just haven't yet.
Joanne Lockwood: We we've all got a book in there somewhere haven't we and some of us have 2 books or 3 books. So ah brilliant. So I'm sure our guests would love to get in contact with you so apart from your your website coach http://Lisa Braithwaiteb.com ah the C O A.
Lisa Braithwaite: Um, yep, yep.
Joanne Lockwood: CHLIS a b dot com. Um, how ask can people get in contact with you.
Lisa Braithwaite: The 2 places on social media where I spend the most time are Linkedin and Instagram so on Instagram I'm coach Lisa Braithwaite be I'm pretty much coach Lisa Braithwaite be everywhere I'm I'm also coach Lisa Braithwaite be on. Ah, Linkedin I mean my link is literally http://instagram.com/coachLisa Braithwaite be and http://linkedin.com/ I think there's in I n and then slash coach Lisa Braithwaite be so you can generally find me at coach Lisa Braithwaite be everywhere and I enjoy kind of bringing the the various. Parts of my personality to Linkedin and Instagram which are completely different kinds of platforms and I am enjoying myself immensely on both so please come and connect with me and join the speaking up for change and this is what professional looks like. Community especially on Linkedin. That's where that's where this is really flying high right now.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, and we're we're we're connected and I I can vouch for the fact that I'm seeing these posts I've wandered onto onto Instagram as well looking at some of the stuff you're posting on there and yeah, it's your you're walking the talk completely. So yeah, it's absolutely fantastic and you you're building a community of other people who are.
Lisa Braithwaite: Trying.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, resonating and echoing your thoughts which is which is absolutely fantastic and it's been a a real pleasure to to chat with you today I can't believe we wow 59 minutes we've been yacking away and I'm I'm sure like I'm sure we could have carried on for another couple of hours and we had we had probably half now in the green room but we pressed the record button.
Lisa Braithwaite: Probably.
Joanne Lockwood: And no doubt we'll probably have ah another 10 minutes after we offered we stop. So no, it's been absolutely fantastic. Um, so thank you Lisa Braithwaite and thank you also to the listeners for tuning in for getting to the end please do subscribe. Yeah. If you want to keep in touch subscribe on Apple Podcasts Spotify or other platforms to keep updates on future episodes of the inclusion Bites podcast that's be I t yes, tell your friends tell your colleagues please share this I've got another number of other exciting guests lined up. I'm sure you'd be also be inspired by over the next few weeks and months and of course if you'd like to be a guest then please do let me know you can drop me line to Jo Dot Lockwood as c change happen dot code at uk let me also know if there's any ways I can improve future shows and finally all it is to say is my name is Joanne Lockwood and it's been an absolute pleasure diosis podcast for you today forward to next time. Thank you bye.