Joanne Lockwood: Hello everyone my name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the inclusion bites podcast in this series I have interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation around the subject of inclusion belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. Like to join me in the future then please do drop me a line to Jo Dot Lockwood as t changee happen dot coded uk that's S Wly changeapp dot code at uk you can catch up with all of the previous shows on Itunes Spotify and the usual places so plug in your headphones. Grab a decaf and let's get going today is episode 62 with the title. It's painful not to belong and I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome my guest lizette offly lizette describes herself as the genius maker lizette oley founder of genius material and the genius principles when I asked isettete to describe her superpowers. She said tenacity and sense of humor not taking herself too seriously allows her to get back up again and keep going I know that feeling hallow is that. Welcome to the show.
Lysette Offley: Hi Jo thank you very much for having me here I'm looking forward to our chat.
Joanne Lockwood: Absolute pleasure I know we planned this a while ago and it's finally great to get you on the show. Thank you So liette tell me it's painful not to belong What does that mean to you.
Lysette Offley: I should I should imagine that most of us at some point have experienced that feeling that uncomfortable feeling. There's something wrong I certainly know that I have in my time 2 2 things in particular jump into my mind. The first perhaps was when I was at school secondary school I had to. Bored for a couple of years so having started the school as a day girl or as the borders called them day bugs I then had to board for a couple of years so I ended up not in either camp really not belonging to the one and not belonging to the other. All the the friendships had already been made by the time I joined the other camp and that felt really uncomfortable I was into everything I was in the orchestra I was in the tennis team and the lacrosse team and and so on and so on so I was in groups. Thank goodness. But most of the time I felt like a fish out of water didn't know. Where to go who to talk to how to be really felt very uncomfortable.
Joanne Lockwood: How did you overcome that or was it just a case of um, bouncing back and and being resilient.
Lysette Offley: Um, well I guess at the time I simply got on with it I just made the best of everything I could make the best of like I said I was you know into lots of stuff and so there were times when I certainly felt included like the orchestra for example, um, but. At the age of you know, 141516 I just got on with it the way that it was over time things changed And for example, when I went off to university very quickly. I found myself included for want of a better word. Just felt as though I belonged I was loved I was accepted I existed as I am and you know nothing wrong, but you know the the opposite and I guess I hung onto that experience as ah as an alternative that you can always probably. You can always find. Somewhere where you can feel like you belong. But then maybe that's something that you may or may not learn as you get older and wiser and get a bit more experience under your belt.
Joanne Lockwood: So you mentioned a couple of things here so inclusion and belonging. There's there's a difference isn't there. How do you experience the difference between those 2 phrases or words.
Lysette Offley: Okay.
Lysette Offley: I Guess in that example, for me inclusion is where where perhaps the environment are the people circumstances. Make it easier for you to step into that space and join in and be part of what's going on belonging perhaps is the feeling that comes out of that that you you're not worried that you're in the wrong place that you feel as if you have ah. Part in that place and I'm just just trying to cast my mind back to how it felt I can't speak for anybody else. But I think that's how it materialized for me.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it's I think it's different for each of us and I I know I know't what it's like to be excluded I Know what it's like to be tolerated product with and I guess I know what it's like to be included and I suppose for me when I think about belonging is that extra level.
Lysette Offley: Of.
Joanne Lockwood: Above inclusion is where you're truly part of something your opinion really Matters. You're part of the organizing you're you're the go to person you have value you feel that I feel like the passion or the understanding of the mission that. If you're trying to achieve I think that's that's for me is that that extra on top of inclusion where you feel part of the organization or part of where wherever you're taking part in whereas including you kind of you've let in aren't you you.
Lysette Offley: Yeah, you're you're making me think Yes, yes, you're making me think about it and I guess possibly for me because I am an extrovert which means that most of my energy goes out towards other people rather than inside myself and I guess. Belonging part for me is no longer focusing on me whether what I'm doing what I'm saying who I'm being is acceptable and okay, but actually just so much myself that I disappear that I'm focusing on what I'm doing there.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah.
Lysette Offley: Who I'm doing it with So I think you know I've not really thought about this too much before. So it's a great conversation to have makes you think.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, do you remember the the American Sitcom was it Canadian Sitcom Cheers Ah, the bar where everyone knows your name and I think difference for me being included is walking in everyone says hi how you doing what can I get you.
Lysette Offley: Um, me.
Joanne Lockwood: Belonging is where everyone knows your name. Everyone knows what you're going to drink. Everyone is pleased to see you. There's kind of this extra level of thinking This is my place That's that for me is the kind of the the icing on it.
Lysette Offley: No.
Lysette Offley: And another dot that I'm now connecting is that my dad was in the army and we did a lot of traveling a lot of traveling you know in my early years. It wasn't till I was eight years old that I spent more than 2 terms in any 1 primary school. That's how much traveling we did.
Joanne Lockwood: No.
Lysette Offley: So I guess the belonging thing just wasn't really a thing it hadn't materialized. It didn't know what it was know you'd like ah gotten this I'm you know I'm I'm going about how many years trying to think about it now.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Lysette Offley: But I suppose I didn't expect necessarily to feel like I belonged I didn't have much experience of that any any any feeling of being established or comfortable in environment wasn't for long each time.
Joanne Lockwood: Um.
Lysette Offley: And you know what there are you know there are pluses and minuses with that. There are skills and experiences that I've acquired because of that and other things that I've missed out on because of that there's no right or wrong about it. But it doesn't have tickle me now having lived in the same area for the last thirty two years
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Lysette Offley: That I also come up with things like oh yes, but I know someone you can talk to that can help with that you know because I now know I'm more familiar with my own environment and and that only began for me in half a lifetime ago
Joanne Lockwood: And. Yeah, and picking back on what you're saying about how you were you started off as a day girl or debug as you put it and then moved on to being at a border you weren't excluded from either camp but you never really fitted in either because that's the belongings. Yeah.
Lysette Offley: And.
Lysette Offley: Ah, and then yeah, that's right? and no one else knew that that's how I was feeling and I think that's one of the things about the feeling of belonging or rather the opposite of that that very often other people don't realize that you're struggling.
Joanne Lockwood: My my tribe if you like my my my people.
Joanne Lockwood: Click button.
Lysette Offley: And in fact, only a week ago I got ah an email from Dr. David Hamilton who is a world class author and much loved and he's on the speaker circuit. He's a global name in you know self-development and he was talking about all this very same thing. And also saying that other people more than likely won't recognize while he seems confident and happy on the outside sometimes he's struggling with these insecurities on the inside and that's that's tragic really for all of us because we're so we're more the same than we are different.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Lysette Offley: We all need the same things and there are so many of us who you know for the want of ah a gentle word or you know a kind word or you know something could feel so much better I went to a school reunion yonks ago and as I walked in through the door I could either have lunch with.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Lysette Offley: Ah day bugs and you know I used that word because that was a term that borders used so it was definitely a them and us situation. So I could either go and sit and have lunch with the day girls or go and sit and have lunch with the borders I didn't know what to do. And by that I mean I didn't know what I was supposed to do what other people would think of me if I chose a over B Anyway I Chose a and got into conversation with somebody who had always been in that camp and she was astonished that I had any of these negative feelings.
Joanne Lockwood: You know.
Lysette Offley: At school. She said that I seem confident and happy and like I keep saying into everything she had no idea and she obviously you know was the sort of person who would have gone the extra mile for me if she'd realized that I was struggling in any shape or form but I didn't let on because for me, there was something wrong with me. That I wasn't accepted and I bet that's part of the problem for a lot of people too not feeling as if they're belonging not knowing what to do or how to be in order to be accepted and all the while making it mean that there's something wrong with them.
Joanne Lockwood: So does think that yeaht that plays into your identity. Um, when you you again, using your day versus Borders analogy there.
Lysette Offley: And that's in a way how I got into the work I do.
Joanne Lockwood: You didn't know what your identity was where you a day girl or where you were border and you didn't want to be picking aside, you wanted to be in the middle of everything so your identity was confused therefore you didn't feel like you you were belonging fully in either camp because you weren't bringing.
Lysette Offley: Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Who you were because you didn't really understand who you were as well and I think I mean I'd give an example in my own life when I gender transitioned about five years ago I was a member of a club and the club is for men so when when I was invited back to. Come as ah as as me as as a woman it didn't feel right because my entire identity around that club was as a man but I wasn't a man. It just felt uncomfortable. I was felt very welcome I felt very included but I didn't belong. There. It wasn't my people or.
Lysette Offley: Um, and in the example that I'm using of course a teenager desperately. We all go through it. Well.
Joanne Lockwood: It just felt wrong. So I think our identity is is hugely important when we think about whether we belong as part of something or not.
Lysette Offley: We all go through but it's common for us to go through a phase where we just want to fit in as a teacher of 20 years watching the the teenagers growing up understanding that they all like to feel as if they're rebelling against Authority their parents. The school. You know, just. Being themselves doing things their way and they all end up looking the same Anyway, you know they've all got their skirts hoked up to here in their socks down to their you know and their tie round round the neck in an attempt to not conform. But they've all. Not conformed in an identical fashion because that means they fit in they fit in with each other and we go through that we go through that phase I think where it's really important to us to to begin to learn who we are so that we can be ourselves but at the same time We're an acceptable version of ourselves that.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, yeah, is that Anarchic isn't it. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Lysette Offley: That our peers accept is it's quite a complex thing Really I mean you know time and time again I think just how amazing we are as human beings that we we we can do any of that stuff at all.
Joanne Lockwood: It's kind of creating our our tribe isn't it our safe space. The people we've for comfort around that. Yeah, the people have ah trusted it in hearts is our belonging our identity I think everything about um.
Lysette Offley: Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.
Joanne Lockwood: When we can relax our psychological safety. We trust those people around us. Yeah, you think back to every generation of of young person who's grown up I think since postwar I think rock and roll with the 50 s was the first time that children were allowed to have an identity that wasn't based around their parents. That's when we had some freedom. Yeah.
Lysette Offley: Um.
Lysette Offley: Yes, and and a uniform their own uniform. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And we're able to break out and I think if you dont but but by childhood I suppose I grew up in the the tail end of the sixty s and the early part of the 70 s so it was kind of a bit of flower power flares hippie moved into rockers punks.
Lysette Offley: O m.
Joanne Lockwood: And then evolved into new romantics and mods and and rockets and so each one of those different groups different based on music based on culture based on dress sense created their own subidentity their own identity who they were I'm a mod I'm a rocker I'm a new romantic I'm a punk. Yeah and you see say.
Lysette Offley: Um, yep.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, trying to be different but they're being different within a tribe within a community where they have that sense of belonging. So.
Lysette Offley: That's right because of course you know as time's gone on and I've I've learnt my craft you know with with the work that I'm doing now I've I've realized that one really quick and easy way of feeling like you belong is to make yourself as a group different. From another group or the others and we we do that? Ah um, watching football you know I'm wearing a blue shirt and I'm a Chelsea fan and the others are over. There are wearing a red shirt and they're an arsenal fan I mean.
Joanne Lockwood: Click button.
Lysette Offley: Fact that they live next door to me and will you know have cups of tea together and and and whatnot is irrelevant right now because right now they're over there in red and I'm over here in blue so you know that can be fun and games and perfectly natural and healthy for us. It's it's. So when it you know when we overstep the mark and we take all of that far too seriously and we think it really really means something about us. It's It's an easy.. It's an easy route to take to find something that you have in common with somebody that nobody else shares because that makes you feel as if you.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Lysette Offley: Really know and understand each other you're another version of me and I'm okay so yeah, it's It's very very interesting and I've I've noticed notice that as I've you know I've learned about psychology and about the way human beings work I can see the wood for the trees. A lot better than I ever could when I was 141516 Just trying to survive.
Joanne Lockwood: It's funny. You saying you are you and your blue shirt chaity sporter I have been to Stanford Bridge once my friends he even named his daughter Charlie after Charlie Cox um Charlie Cook is it Charlie Cook on that? Yeah, um.
Lysette Offley: Um, ah I don't know I didn't know. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Even named his daughter after Charlie anyway, um, but I I so my blue comes from Portsmouth. Um, and my my brother moved to Derby and there was a year where Darby and portsmworth in the both both in the same league and.
Lysette Offley: Okay.
Joanne Lockwood: My brother's children became Derby County fans because that's why they lived? why not I mean it's it's obvious even acquired a bit of a dowby accent and I remember my brother said do wanna go see pompey play Derby when you're up here at the baseball ground or wherever wherever they were playing at the time.
Lysette Offley: Of course, Yes, yes.
Lysette Offley: Woo.
Joanne Lockwood: And I said yeah, that'd be fantastic and it never occurred to me I'd be in the Derby County end so there I was with my brother and his 2 children and my wife Marie we were in the Derby County end and portsman scored first and of course I had to stay sat down I had to put my but my hands but between my legs to go.
Lysette Offley: Yes, ah. Move.
Lysette Offley: M What do you do? ah.
Joanne Lockwood: To sort of lay little yay quietly and then and then Darby so Derby equalized the second half and I remember sitting there thinking I can't be the only person for miles sat on my seat looking miserable. So I had to sort stand up and sort of.
Lysette Offley: Ah, that's funny. Yes, um, yet not hearing yeah go through the motions. Ah, and of course.
Joanne Lockwood: Make it look if I was happy this set that get to the motions and it's the most uncomfortable thing most uncomfortable thing I've ever been through and it may be like again a longing. Yeah.
Lysette Offley: And that's a very benign thing. Yes, and it's a very ah, very benign thing because you're with your family for goodness sake. But sometimes you know the situation can be a lot more dangerous than that can't it.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, and it's now leading me to thinking you know when people cover mask or or hide their identity which is what I was effectively doing it. It was so exhausting and at the end of it I felt this huge sense of relief to go back into the into the air and breathe again and I.
Lysette Offley: Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: It's not until we started talking there I remember those feelings about I was covering a mask in my identity or hiding who I was.
Lysette Offley: Yeah, yeah, well,, that's that's actually 1 of the Genius principles giving yourself permission to be yourself and finding a way to do that safely because it because it's totally exhausting. It uses a lot of your brain power thinking all the time. What am I supposed to be doing What's acceptable here who should I be and if part of your brain is doing that. Well then good luck being good at whatever it is. You are trying to do you know your job of work or being the best parent you can be or you know whatever the situation is exhausting pretending all the time.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Lysette Offley: And and yet you know we all talk about inclusion and yet a lot of people find it very difficult to be themselves in their place of work. They they hide themselves or they pretend to be someone else I even knew somebody who deliberately. Um, started wearing dull color clothes not like her at all normally but started wearing Navy Blue Brown and black at work hoping that she could blend into the background because she felt so threatened there at the same time she was trying to um. Step forward and be available for promotion and new opportunities and that's like you know, putting your foot on the accelerator in the brake at the same time because if you're trying to blend into the background. You're going to end up with the jobs that nobody else wants and you're certainly not going to shine and you know be the best version of yourself and it's just so. Common. That's the tragedy of it all. We keep talking about everyone being themselves and bringing their thing. Oh Oscar Wilde something like be yourself. Everyone else is taken. Great! Great, great but actually doing it can be another thing altogether.
Joanne Lockwood: Oh.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I I hear that be yourself. Yolo be Authenticator and I so my reaction to that is that's easy for you to say that the more privilege you have the less complex. Your life is the less. You've got to hide. Of course it's easy to be yourself. It's a very.
Lysette Offley: Yeah. The the.
Joanne Lockwood: Think it's a very invalidating statement. Yeah, it's like saying everyone can succeed if they try hard enough. Be yourself. Everyone has to take it. Yes, it's an ideal but it almost invalidates Other people's lived experience the challenges they faced in their life and it's yeah it is and when you're talking there about the the complexity of this.
Lysette Offley: A. Yes, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Multiple identities or or covering or identity I Also think of because I've got a computing background and I always think of it's like an extra subrout routine that you have to insert between every word or every sentence you's got all that extra processing going on before you can move on to the next thing that comes out of your mouth and it just slows the program down. Yeah.
Lysette Offley: Um, that's a great analogy. Yeah, how much effort does that take? Yeah yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's you think about people who are in the Lgbt community not wanting to talk about their their wife their same-sex partner. The fact they've got children women who are who don't want children women who do want children who can't have them ivf Menopause We think but all these things that we're talking about in the workplace and we're just zipping our mouth.
Lysette Offley: Ah, well.
Joanne Lockwood: Can't talk about that. Can't talk about that. Can't talk about that.
Lysette Offley: Um, yeah, it doesn't make for an easy existence. Does it for any of us.
Joanne Lockwood: So no and that comes back to. It's painful not to belong because you can't be your truth can you? well.
Lysette Offley: Yeah, yeah, well we're hard and I mean now you know now I know that we're hardwired to belong. You know, physiologically with the same as we were ten thousand years ago when we lived in caves you had to belong not belonging meant being on the outside of the cave and it was dangerous out there so you know so evolution has seen to it. That we try very hard to belong to each other so that we can all stay safe and physiologically we're the same. We've got a different environment different constraints different things to cope with but the the machinery we've got to cope with it is the same so we're still looking for those signs of danger that oh something's up this is getting to be a dangerous situation that look. They just gave me did I say something out of turn am I okay so you know I understand those things now. So when I catch myself even now I'm not even now we're all hardwired to notice those little moments in order to keep us safe. So when I say even now I'm noticing of course I am we all are. But this time around when I do notice those things happening around me and I'm all just wondering if I've you know I've upset somebody or you know something I'm aware First of all that it's that that's potentially what's going on but I'm also aware why I might be hyper alert to it and I'm aware of my stuff that I'm piling into it.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Lysette Offley: And then I might call out the elephant in the room which I never would have dared to have done back in the day when I wasn't sure if I belonged if I was good enough and now I might just say oh what just happened you know did I say something did that trigger something you know have I said something out of turn and then you know boom you clear the air and 9 times out of tennis. Talking about know what what? What? What do you think? just happened nothing happened and I've just thought I've seen something that you know really wasn't there I was just being too vigilant.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I completely completely understand that. Yeah, it's it is yeah I think I I think you're right? This is we have this innate sense of belonging the the tribe the the prehistoric prehistory evolution of of our species our our our communities. We do live in a more complex well but our fundamental needs I mean not everyone agrees with Maslow's hierarchy yeah but belonging is right in the middle there above above the ah survival stuff above the the utility stuff. So yeah, we we have to have to fill this sense belonging before we can sort of get to this.
Lysette Offley: Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and.
Joanne Lockwood: Where we can selffactuate and get on with life and um, ah build relationships.
Lysette Offley: Well, everything comes down to relationships and people. There's nobody exists in isolation I don't think anywhere I don't think it is such a thing you know I don't think it exists. We all depend on other people whether we're conscious of it or not, you know if if you if you want to go and if you want to Eat. You have to get some food where are you going to get the food from who's put it there. You know how are you going to get there to get it. Other people have had a hand in your means of travel or you know. Everything depends on other people having already done something or are in the process of doing something So. No wonder we're we're hardwired to belong because it serves us still now and the world is a much happier place if we. Do recognize the similarities between us you know,? whatever's going on for me if I realize probably pretty much the same thing as going on for the other person that there's a very different circumstance from from fearing the other person because you don't you don't recognize. The way that they're being or you know who they are or what they're saying what they're doing fearing that and then either hiding away from the world because the world's a threatening place or attacking in some way them or anybody else. Both are just unconscious strategies for surviving and neither of them are particularly effective for what happens afterwards it it It reduces the possibility rather than I'm go. You know this sort of thing takes a bit of understanding and a bit of practice but actually.
Joanne Lockwood: Oh.
Lysette Offley: We do all need the same things we all need to feel that we have some control over our own lives. We need to feel as if we're okay, it doesn't mean you have to be perfect, but that we're good enough as we are. We don't.
Joanne Lockwood: Martin.
Lysette Offley: To be something different in order to be accepted. We you know we all need to feel loved and appreciated. We all need to feel that it's okay that we're okay.
Joanne Lockwood: Because some of those fears we have um, fear of humiliation fear rejection fear of making people's judgment. All the things that kind of hold us back and it's ah as you're speaking then I think yeah, we do like to be liked. We like what we need to be loved.
Lysette Offley: Who And And. Oh yeah, yeah yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Need to be valued. We need to have a purpose. We need to understand our part in the big cog of life or society and there's such a fair of of being an outlier. So for some for many people. Not everybody. Some people are happy be on the edge and being an outlier but but as as we said earlier, there's.
Lysette Offley: Um.
Joanne Lockwood: Outlying with another group another tribe who who are outliers together. So there's a community somewhere. But yeah I think there is this what holds people back sometimes is that social responsibility that that need to conform in order to to get that validation of who you are and.
Lysette Offley: The.
Joanne Lockwood: It's really hard on her to to whack that stop button and say hang on a minute who am I what? What do I want when am I where am I heading am I am I really going where I want to be or or I just got on this escalator at the age of 16 and and I'm just heading upwards. So.
Lysette Offley: Oh.
Lysette Offley: But your point about that maslow's hierarchy of needs going back again to school I'm afraid and I'm ashamed to say that I was in the camp who used to you know, bandy it about What's the point of doing latin it's a dead language. No, you've heard it all before it's a dead language. She'll be doing something more useful blah blah blah and I played up in lessons which was your job as a kid you know as ah ah a year twenty year teaching for 20 years and you think oh well, they're just doing what I used to do. But you know now. I am fascinated by language I'm fascinated by the origin of words the spelling of words. Why do you spell this this way but you spell that that way if I paid more attention in my latin lessons I would be the wiser and happier for it. But I was on the bandwagon I just picked up the the. Conversation that was going on around me that there will have been other conversations going on around me but I wasn't paying attention to those I jumped in with this particular camp and I agreed with them wholeheartedly. But I was only 111213. That's my excuse as you. As you get more experiences as you get older you get wiser you begin to notice other things then perhaps you're able to make your own decisions more easily. But you know as that's on an individual basis. But as groups I think. That's the case that there's this natural maturity or not that groups develop at a certain pace for that group and even countries I think develop in in their wisdom and experience and and all of those things.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I would call that a maturity model isn't it when you have level 0 level one and that you can apply that to societies to organizational growth and development where are you and your growth on your.
Lysette Offley: So yes.
Lysette Offley: Absolutely absolutely. But where I am right now personally in my life I can be talking about that sort of thing I wish I'd paid more attention in Latin I'm not scratching about every day looking for something to eat or looking for some way.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Lysette Offley: To earn enough money to feed my family. You can be quite sure I wouldn't be talking about Latin lessons if that were the case so it's it's all very well you know it's it's all very well when you've got the fundamentals in place. The things that we really need the fundamental things that we need. There might be space in your head. For the for the ah more advanced the more developed the more sophisticated thoughts and behavior and when you've when when you've got that in place. There might be a bit of space in your head for the next level up so I'm not just taking care of my lot now now I can think about people I've never even met.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Lysette Offley: But I know it's right for me to lend them a hand or to steer things in such a way that that they are better off than they would be if I just turned my back on them I don't know quite how we got into this. Um.
Joanne Lockwood: Now it's it's brilliant I was chatting to a ah gp trainee earlier and we were talking about. Um, what's going on with training Gps over the last couple of years in covid and about the burnout around the disruption to their studies. How. Lot of imposter syndrome about I can't be a real gp because I haven't had real gp training can I trust myself and we we probably did this at school as well. I remember doing this about being so fixated on my grades my exams and then disappointing myself and then.
Lysette Offley: A.
Joanne Lockwood: Moving on to another worrying about this and it's only when you're I don't know when you're older in the like you're loing the tooth and old enough and ugly enough you look back and go under that really matter did it. It was just kind of it was just another stage to get me to the next door it was up to me to open that door and make the most of it.
Lysette Offley: A ah a a.
Joanne Lockwood: And to move on to the next door and I think we we do. We do expect qualifications to give us the keys give us the give us the yeah the answer but really, they're just they're just enable us maybe to give us confidence or to help us focus or whatever it may be and I think I've never learned Latin in.
Lysette Offley: Hello.
Lysette Offley: Ah.
Lysette Offley: Yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: But I I can right? Click select paste into Google translate and I can translate that in and I dare say I could have a good hash at going and the other way. Um I think I've had I realized that there was there's going to be a little red squiggly line or a green's quiggly line under words in the web processor in 50 years time
Lysette Offley: Yes, what.
Joanne Lockwood: I would have probably paid even less attention at school. The time had I known when the teacher said you're not going to have a calculator where you go in the future and you think well actually I do at the moment I've got one on my watch I've got one on my in my back pocket.
Lysette Offley: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lysette Offley: But isn't that tremendous though you know ah a few years ago we went to a Shakespeare play at the globe theatre and even though the acoustics are so great in there I just kept missing the odd word and couldn't keep up and then had a brainwave googled. On my my phone the script you know the um, the play and while there were just 1 or 2 places where they shift a couple of things around or left a sentence out it was it was almost identical which meant I had my own subtitles and isn't it fantastic that we can do that.
Joanne Lockwood: Forians.
Lysette Offley: We went we went to long grin last night at covent garden and and I kept hearing little um threads little light motifs. They called little um little phrases of music that kept coming back. Um, Lonerin is ah, there's a swan who brings the hero to the stage. He's riding on a swan's back and we kept getting um the first few notes of Swan Lake I thought erlo who stole what from whom first thing I did was went straight to my phone discovered that Swan Lake was written a few thirty few years later. So so Wagner invented that little phrase. It might be a total coincidence or it might be sort of a tongue-in cheek thing going on. So so when I have the time I'll go back to Google and I'd start educating myself on just a little snippet of of music that now I'm fascinated by and that's something that's happened in our lifetime. Obviously some you know. My niece has always had that as a facility so you you can't you can't anticipate when you're at schools this is like me talking to my younger self now you can't anticipate when you're at school. What's going to be useful and why and it's the same same with every experience in life. The best you can hope for is just to suck it all in.
Joanne Lockwood: 5
Lysette Offley: Just get the best experience. You can get the most out of everything you can right now even with things that you can't quite see what the point is right now because you never know it might be a tremendous advantage later on just for fun if nothing else.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, but maybe maybe the the life lesson at school is building Curiosity building Inquisitiveness building the tenacity to find out more and being able to translate into application if you like you learn.
Lysette Offley: A.
Joanne Lockwood: Then you can apply or learning in chemistry. Maybe it's about learning the methods of an experiment. Um, this is this is my conclusion. So I I often still think about my chemistry lessons when I'm writing blog posts or or reports.
Lysette Offley: Yeah, yeah.
Lysette Offley: Really yeah Yeahp Yep great. Yeah, yes, yes, so that's that's about skills and strategy which you can then adapt and use where relevant in your life.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, got to have a conclusion I gotta have my recommendations and a conclusion. So it's kind of so nothing do with chemistry but it's probably taught me a lot of life lessons I use now in a different way.
Lysette Offley: Which is what which what I really enjoy about genius material and the genius principles which is what I do now with people because it it completely transforms their outcome when they've got the the handful of skills that they need makes a huge difference to how they approach something and therefore. Ah, very big difference to the results that they get and it's still the same person. It's you know it's not like ah anything has happened for them that couldn't happen to anyone like like the latin thing if I'd paid a bit more attention than I would have learnt because I was in the right place and I was being taught the right way. It's it's not that I was in the wrong place at the right time I was in the right place at the right time and not paying attention. So now I can't apply any of those rules you know I keep saying to myself one day one day I'll I'll go and buy a book or I'll go on ah a gcsc latin course or something because I would I would love to know. Course thing is as you get older. It feels as if time races away from you and you've got all these other things you've got to do and it'll be on that list forever I bet things that I might get round to doing one day.
Joanne Lockwood: So much of what you do is around development for women from what I understand is that like the Genius principles and material is around.
Lysette Offley: Yes, but not necessary. Yes, not just women though. Um my program. Genius material came out of helping teenagers initially learn how to learn for their gtses their a levels even at degree level. Um, and then somebody pointed out to me that financial services people in financial services needed to pass some exams before the end of twenty twelve or they'd lose their jobs and then I started helping people in professional services. So that's men and women and I teach them how to learn so I teach them what to do. The information they've got so their brain makes a pattern of it sends it to their long-term memory and because we're hardwired to forget once it's in your long-term memory then you'd better have a simple system for keeping it there where the the women specifically come in is because the genius principles is all about using your brain to get. Better results in your life things like confidence procrastination. Um imposter syndrome. All those sorts of things it can often be women in a male dominated environment. Um I'm having conversations all the time with people in top jobs women in top jobs. Who I would call them top jobs. You know who've been extremely successful who've been offered some promotion. They know they can do the job and they still haven't stepped into it some things causing them to think oh yes, but what if what if I can't cope what if they find out I'm a fraud. All these things are going on. And I'm not saying for a moment that that doesn't happen for men because I know lots of men you know clients who have had similar things going on and it's often women in a male dominated environment who just need to understand what's going on in their head. Why. So instead of being thwarted by their thoughts they work with their thoughts so that they they can just safely step forward into a new role and know that they've got every bit as much right to be there. As anybody else and they will learn on the job. No one expects them to know all the answers straight away. It's having the confidence in yourself to know that you'll do your best. It will take however long it takes and everything will be okay.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I'm I think that's that's the thing isn't it. It's it's it's having the confidence to know that everything will be okay because when we've not been through things. Yeah, okay.
Lysette Offley: You Just need you just need to be good enough. You just you just need to know that who I am is good enough I'm okay with me I'm not perfect I make mistakes I misjudge things I say things do things that I wish I hadn't done I'm not perfect. But I'm okay with who I am because none of us is perfect and if I can live with me then it it makes it easier for other people to live with me because we're all in the same Boat. We mess Up. We apologize we try and do better the next time. It's not the end of the world.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Joanne Lockwood: And yeah I think as ah, you can put a bit of French into there and say an earth is an Earth an egg is an egg and and enough is enough. Um, yeah I think if we're not if we're not if we're not kind to ourselves as you say we keep trying to chase this ideal.
Lysette Offley: Ah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And actually that ideal is being somebody else not being not being good enough in our minds is I need to be someone different whereas if we can find that self accept and self-be beliefef self love self-identity we can start to believe that what we are is good enough as you say and I think.
Lysette Offley: Ah, no.
Joanne Lockwood: Another phrase is yeah, perfection is the enemy of progress or something you can never get something done whilst you're always focusing on it and I've had this debates with people in the past and saying it's not about 8020 you know people say you go to get 80% to 20% some percent. No, it's got to be perfect. It's gotta be right? It's got be right and you get to these sort of fit.
Lysette Offley: Um, yeah, yeah, um.
Lysette Offley: Yeah. And.
Joanne Lockwood: But so debates about when is a brain surgeon good enough and I said well surely the definition of good enough. A brain surgeon is the patient makes a recovery in some but they don't die is first of all then they make a recovery to certain point and that person their life is is still productive.
Lysette Offley: Ah.
Lysette Offley: And.
Joanne Lockwood: I Guess that's good enough whether they can walk perfectly. Afterwards is kind of is that failure. No because the outcome has been positive their cancer. Their tumour's being removed. Whatever it is So I think yeah, we we have to set our sometimes our goals on the way in that we're trying to be. Rather than get to the end and go well I didn't meet my goal that I wasn't sure what what?? what? it was Anyway. So I think destination planning is is very useful So We we know when we are good enough.
Lysette Offley: In.
Lysette Offley: I think I think being kind to yourself understanding and generous with yourself. But at the same time acknowledging things that perhaps you can do differently the next time I think is the key you know where there's a lot of research around belonging and learning. We can't learn if we don't feel like we belong.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes.
Lysette Offley: So that's something that schools and universities really need to focus on I remember years ago I was um, quite active at the theatre the local theatre and um. I've done some lovely things down there I've been the md of some of my favorite musicals. You know that's just like heaven. You raise your arms to start nothing no sound whatsoever dead quiet you move and this wall of sound starts. Oh I've got the shivers just thinking about it. 1 occasion I was auditioning for the part of an opera singer I am not an opera singer it was for Jenny Lind in Barnham and I resisted it and resisted it and resisted it. My friends were saying you know go for it. Go for it and I just I'm not an opera singer I'm going to let everybody down. It's going to be farcical and then you know some friends were saying to me but there is such a thing as a light operatic voice. You know blah blah blah anyway, anyway what changed everything for me was the director sidling up to me and saying you're the best we've got we haven't got anyone better for the job. Than you. She wasn't saying you're the best in the world she was saying you're the you know of all the average to better people that we've got who could do the job for that job. You're the one for that job and so I can stop talking. Stop thinking about me I started thinking about the group. What the group needed and auditioned for the part got the part pulled my socks up worked really hard at it because that's what I do. Took it very seriously did the very best I could and I think got away with it I had a blast. Loved it and the whole show all unfolded and it it all worked out happily because everybody who got apart did the best they could too. So sometimes it's worth thinking about you know if can i.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah.
Lysette Offley: What's the best I can do is that is that good enough I don't have to be better than anyone else I just have to be the best I can be is that good enough and the answer ought to be blooming. Well yes, Yes, yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, the best the best today the best in the room. The best the best of the moment I mean I dare say that there being another candidate who was in quotes better. They admit they they but they may still feel that they're not the best.
Lysette Offley: Yeah.
Lysette Offley: Yeah, of course and I do yeah yeah, but it's interesting. It's it's it's and it's not exactly a numbers game. It's kind of ah um, a combination game when I actually have sat on audition panels.
Joanne Lockwood: And they they would have someone they would look up to and say oh hang on a minute I'm not really that good.
Lysette Offley: And realize now how difficult it is because you've got particular roles that you need to fill and you've got a finite number of people you can draw on to fill those posts. And the ideal man. So if you start with the first male role. For example, the ideal man is that man there bang job done brilliant decision but you've got to match him up to an appropriate woman for them to look as though they're falling in love and the story can unfold and now you've got a height thing. You've got an age thing. You've got all sorts of stuff going on so hang on a minute. So let's just pull that man out of there because he'd be really good in that other position over there too. Let's just hang on to him as an idea for the second male role for the moment if we put this other man into that position look. We've got a choice of 2 great options to go against. Blah blah blah blah blah and then you you put that one but you should have a computer program I think to sort all of this out that would be much quicker and so that's why I got the role not because there was anybody else who might have sung it better looked better moved better all those things but because everybody had to slot in to a place where the whole thing as a whole worked. As well as it could work and on that basis I took the role because I knew that it was going. It was going to be okay when I focused on the whole rather than just on me being something that I felt I wasn't it was a lesson it was a lesson there for me.
Joanne Lockwood: So yeah, that sounds I mean yeah, that sounds on something I've got a soapbox sort of talk about which is ah about meritocracy in the hiring process and often when we're selecting who is the best candidate for the job who is the best person for this role.
Lysette Offley: Oh.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, criteria is very very narrow. It's years' experience doing the job before work for a similar company, demonstrable, etc, Etc, etc. But we we often forget the other factors you say the height the accent the yeah, all those other soft skills the your your um.
Lysette Offley: And.
Joanne Lockwood: Empathy your compassion your ability to get on with others and so when we're looking at who the best person is exactly the same way as when you're choosing your leaning lady and leading man. There's a whole load of factors there that make up the best person and I think sometimes in business We we tend to focus on these hard skills.
Lysette Offley: The.
Lysette Offley: Um, yes, yes and and better as a cog in the in the group wheel. That's um, yes, identified from Mixedma metaphors there m.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah's some of the softer nuances that make someone a better fit a better belonging if you like.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I mean we want to challenge and we we don't want. We don't necessarily want culture fit. We don't want to. We don't want to make sure we have this monoculture of people who are the same but we we do need to make sure that we are giving people that fair choice. Otherwise we end up with yeah, just just people who have done it before.
Lysette Offley: Move.
Joanne Lockwood: Without necessarily the the extra dimension who say of of the fit of the other skills they bring. So.
Lysette Offley: Don't you think part of that whole issue though is that it's much easier to see what qualifications years of experience companies. They've worked with it's a lot easier to tick those boxes and put them in the possibility pile than to.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, because yeah recruiters yeah recruiters want to CA Cv they want when they're doing their planning. They're doing their interview planning. It's much easier. Well, it's much easier to is perceived to be much easier to be objective.
Lysette Offley: Have an interview and try and make those judgments for yourself. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: When you're comparing absolutes or evidence. It's a lot harder to be objective when you're looking at potential capability ideas that takes a different type of recruitment process to be able to drill into being creating scoring systems and Keywords and.
Lysette Offley: In in.
Lysette Offley: A.
Joanne Lockwood: And how would you type phrases around situations which you can then evaluate in in a more sort of ah rounded way. So yeah, it's a different skill and we we invented the fact when we invent a fax machine. We invented the cv before then we had application forms didn't we we we used to fill in that.
Lysette Offley: And.
Lysette Offley: Yes, yes me up.
Joanne Lockwood: We we'd wed we'd phone up the company say I'd like to apply for the role or you see it the newspaper and then they'd send you an application form you'd write out Longhand in pencil first and go over the top of inning because you didn't make any mistakes and you post off so we didn't we didn't you know, but we couldn't even photocopy it. So unless we wrote out twice on our own bit of paper. We'd never know what we said.
Lysette Offley: And yeah, that's right and and.
Joanne Lockwood: And then the fax machine came along the printer came along computers came along and we invented the Cv. We all had a resume a then email came along. We now we now Pdf and email it off. So if we if we we invented the cv what probably late eighty s early 90 s we can uninvent it and think of go back to? um.
Lysette Offley: 1 m.
Lysette Offley: A.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, just think about how we can get the best out of people and understand that about potential rather than just past performance. Ah, that' a soapbox of mine.
Lysette Offley: Ah, we we all do have our our own biases unconscious and otherwise I've forgotten which orchestra it was but they um put each auditionee behind a curtain. So so the people choosing.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes.
Lysette Offley: You know some violinists could only use their ears and you know it was quite interesting that that they ended up as a consequence perhaps with a different balance of types of people from different backgrounds from they might but.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes, yes, because from the audience perspective the orchestra of look very orchestral. Don't they they have a certain body stature. They have a certain well to know it says something about people who are playing an orchestra that they look like orchestra orchestral people.
Lysette Offley: How they might have done if they were paying attention more to the cv before they even walked into the room.
Lysette Offley: Me.
Joanne Lockwood: I Guess if you're if you're doing blind or anonymous auditions. Then at least you can take out our visual factor help that that that class element maybe or that the schooling element. It's just pretty down to how much did they sound but.
Lysette Offley: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, exactly which probably is quite important in an orchestra. You just thought yes.
Joanne Lockwood: You tried to think that that was sort of the key key criteria and time keeping and relatability and and being part with I something. Yeah, that's right I'm I'm dying to ask you about? um.
Lysette Offley: Yes, you think so well there are other things. Of course there are yeah yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Grand designs you so you mentioned that your house was featured on Grand designs tell me a bit about that I fascinated.
Lysette Offley: Ah, yes, that was a very very very interesting experience for us because I think we were well I know I was very naive about the whole thing hadn't occurred to me that it was a reality Tv show. And subject to all the usual social media scrutiny just didn't occur to me what did occur to me was it would be nice to support our architect. Um, you know, just get a bit of publicity for him because what he was doing was ambitious and clever and lovely. Um. And he was my first husband so you know I wanted to wanted to do that? Um, but what I hadn't realized is once you're on the telly then you've in effect. You've put your head above the parapet and I just wasn't ready for it. And I found that really hard. In fact I wouldn't even have known about it except that our episode was the let's think about this our episode was the ninety ninth episode but we were invited to London to the studios to celebrate the hundreds. Episode which was going to air the week later but we went to an early viewing of it the night that our show was airing does this make sense. So our show was actually being played to the notion while we were watching the following week and.
Joanne Lockwood: Yep yep.
Lysette Offley: Kevin did a but Kevin Mcleod did ah a little bit of an introduction to everything and he mentioned hashtag Granddesign. So for the first time in my life I went to Twitter and watched the Twitter feed unfold during our show in effect. And I was ah, really really astonished because we built our house for us we bore in mind the effect it was having on the environment and that the neighbors and everything else. So it should have all been. You know all happy days for everybody but we built it in the style that we wanted. For us. Not for someone else. So I could have been perfectly happy I would have been perfectly happy with some people saying oh that's horrid. Don't like that and some people saying oh I quite like it actually that would have been absolutely fine because you know who doesn't have their own taste in in houses as well as everything else. But what I really wasn't ready for was the abuse and what I realize is that because it's a what you call it reality show. There's got to be an angle. Um, we had 2 angles. The first one was the fact that I was married to my yeah to our architect and the second was that there was huge antagonism with the neighbors at the time some old school neighbors who wanted a house with a pointy roof and we weren't going to do that. Um. So they you know the the show interviewed a lot of the neighbors and there was a lot of vitriol and all sorts of stuff going on. Um, and so consequently a lot of the abuse was about how horrid we were as people and I just wasn't ready for it. I found it very difficult now what was interesting. Talking about this belonging thing I joined in the conversation. So the the woman from grand designs joined in the conversation and it I I just said oh I'm sorry you think that or um, it's interesting. You should say that actually x y z. So I was being really kind of um, what would the word be kind of open about the whole thing not giving them two barrels which is what I felt like doing sometimes and you know they would they were attacking me. It would have been nice to have attacked back but I didn't do that I was just but what was interesting what was interesting was that 9 out of 10 of them piped down immediately. It was. It was all oh welcome the celebrity to the fold sort of attitude I'm not bloody celebrity. You know I just happened to be on the on the telly for 10 minutes but all of a sudden because I became a real person or maybe even.
Lysette Offley: Ah, you know a part time celebrity as I say for 10 minutes there was a whole other attitude. It just nipped some of it in the bud but of course as a years ago that was ten years ago and um, you know we're on repeat all the time so there'll always be a flurry of of the same again and I do think. Do think it's unhealthy I do think it's a problem and and it doesn't really affect me very much these days because I'm expecting it. You know I'll see it and I'll go oh we're on again here we go again and I know they don't know me I know they're misjudging me because of the angle. Of the show I know that I'm an okay person you know I had to work really hard. Still do have to work really hard in the face of all of this You're not good enough. You don't belong. We're ostracizing you. We're judging you.
Joanne Lockwood: Oh.
Lysette Offley: It's it's been a hell of a lesson and I do I do think honestly I do think that that you know programs need to take better care of the people they depend on to make their programs. To take you know one very very extreme case the jerry not the Jerry Springer the other one Jeremy Kyle's show stopped dead and dead in its tracks I use that word. Um deliberately you know it's it's not fair because you know ah a lot of people are.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Oh.
Lysette Offley: We're all vulnerable. We all have different levels of vulnerability and we're all vulnerable in 1 shape or form and you know throwing people into a situation that they can't cope with I think is a very cynical thing to do and I'm not talking about any show in particular now I'm talking about in general the way that we treat. The people we see on the telly.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I my wife and I had a similar experience. We? Yeah, but maybe not as extreme as yours but we took partner channel for documentary um over three year period so we were we were followed and and it was a longitudinal study I think they called it of. Gender transitioning so they followed me in the early stages through 3 years of of of our lives and there was there was 8 other people who also featured and we we did receive some ah some good safeguarding by Channel 4 Rdf so we were signed a.
Lysette Offley: A.
Joanne Lockwood: Not sure whether you call them a psychologist a mental health specialist but we had regular calls about how we were how we were doing the crew that we were liaing with were very conscious about our mental health. The impact on us we were briefed and coached about our social media. The point of broadcast How we should lock it down how we just switch it off.
Lysette Offley: That's very good. Yeah, that's good news. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: How we should basically hide hide for a week and that sort of stuff. Um, so we got to be honest I think the show itself landed in a way that it it didn't create a huge reaction. It was kind of the the editorial. Yeah yeah, yeah, the editorials in.
Lysette Offley: Yes, yes, it was trying to create respect and understanding Perhaps that was that was the aim of it. Yeah, so so what was your sorry.
Joanne Lockwood: Editorials in the in the in the papers were basically it was nice. It was lovely. There was no kind of like shock horror react I mean if it I think if it went out today. There'd be a lot more vitriol around it. But at the time it wasn't and our episode the motivation. Um, the motivation was.
Lysette Offley: Um, yeah, really well what was your motivation Sorry so I interrupt you again.
Joanne Lockwood: And I stand by this today was if by telling our story we could help 1 other family 1 other person get on with their life in a better more positive way that was that was our motivation one person to be impacted in a more positive way. Um.
Lysette Offley: Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And I've met people I bumped into people who've who've seen it I've had people contact me on Linkedin I've had people randomly message me and I also I also often show the clip because it also got fear got featured on gogglebox on the following Friday so our clip was the gogglebots clip at the end of the show. Um, so we probably got more views from Gogglebox than we did live on the show and ah I think yeah I I think on Facebook they pasted the they past it like a clip of it of the gogglebox clip and that's so that's and over six million views um and there's a whole.
Lysette Offley: Yes, yes I'm I'm an avid fan. Yep.
Lysette Offley: A a.
Joanne Lockwood: Host of of comments beneath the Facebook posting of which I have dived in there and I decided it's it's too toxic and complicated. Yes, there's a lot of positivity in there. There's a lot of ah people who are advocating and standing up and and on my behalf and our behalf. Um.
Lysette Offley: And yeah.
Lysette Offley: Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: But there's still too much of of the of the negative rhetoric. So yeah, it's not place I want to go. But yeah it it was ah it was a it was um I'm sure yours was it was ah quite a stressy experience having a camera being interviewed. There's a lot more to it.
Lysette Offley: The.
Lysette Offley: Ah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Than I had ever thought there's a lot of ah background stuff be-roll footage. You know this going into a cafe to have ah have a conversation in an interview they're filming your hand. They're filming your feet they're doing it again because there's an aircraft flying over was some music of playing they watch you coming in that they film the same shot for 5 or 6 different angles.
Lysette Offley: Um, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's It's quite interesting to watch them execute their craft. Yeah yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: 1 cameras that they're swapping around. You have to redo everything and so its but yeah, yeah, so now I've got a huge amount of respect for people to do homes under the hammer or some of these daytime program thing I bet you've done that 10 times and when you're walking down the street I bet I know what's going on there. There's someone running with ah.
Lysette Offley: Yeah yep, yep.
Joanne Lockwood: Running on the camera on their shoulder going backwards. Yeah jumping over the bin as you're walking down the street. Yeah, so is a past name process. Yeah, first same process.
Lysette Offley: You do get an insight into the whole thing. Don't you Well so like us then so like us you you were doing it for altruistic reasons I wanted to do some good for you know for.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it completely completely.
Lysette Offley: For Chris our architect. Um now don't get me wrong I also thought it would be lovely to have some sort of record of the builds as we went along. We talked about having one of those um ah time lapse cameras in a tree join the thing but we never got round to that because we you know as it happened we had grand design. So.
Joanne Lockwood: So does? Yeah yeah.
Lysette Offley: So that was a lovely thing for us and you know that's that's part of the motivation but really was to to acknowledge and to give an opportunity to someone else who I didn't owe anything to by the way you know it's it's not like um I changed my mind first time around anyway. So that's what we did but you know there was always that angle. Um with the show and the funny thing about the neighbors and they've you know they've long disappeared or moved on the funny thing was that we'd only just moved into our new house and with all the flooding in this area several of the houses round about they they actually had to do something. You know they really had to shore up or move up or knock down and start again and we deliberately went online and supported the applications of those who had been so difficult with us so you know it felt a little bit as if you know we were taking the moral high ground. And we just didn't want any more agro to be honest with you and you know we've got some great friends around here but we hadn't made friends yet. All we had was what seemed like antagonism and and a couple of times you know I was questioning. Why would we want to live here. Well actually there are loads of reasons why we would. But you know when we were having such antagonism from the from the environment and we didn't feel like we were accepted and belonged then um, you know you sort of like want to disappear dig a hole and jump into it and stay there. You know like hide. But it's all worked out happily.
Joanne Lockwood: It's all worked out happily happily ever after. It's a bit goldilocks. Ah well lizette. Um, absolutely incredible I mean we've been chatting away for well well over an hour including the pre-record Green room. Um.
Lysette Offley: Very happily exactly exactly.
Joanne Lockwood: Really insightful, Really interesting I've I've enjoyed our conversation though and how can our listeners get in touch with you. Okay.
Lysette Offley: Ok doki. So um, it depends what you're after I'm the genius makers. So 1 website is geared towards people who want to learn how to learn efficiently quickly so they pass all of their exams first time with a score of 80% by doing less work. That's genius material so you need to go to http://geniushyphenmaterial.com if you're interested in in mindset confidence procrastination moving to the next level then that's http://geniusprinciples.com. The first one has a hyphen genius hyphenmater dot com for the learning for the genius principles. It's geniuspriips dot com and Jo I've had a blast I've really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you very much for having me on your show. You want one.
Joanne Lockwood: Now it's a pleasure absolute pleasure. Thank you.
Lysette Offley: Reasons I wanted to talk to you is because you're in such an inspiration because because you know when it when it comes to giving yourself permission to be yourself. You are a great example of that and I really wanted to talk to you.
Joanne Lockwood: All. 01:03:50.93 Joanne Lockwood: Thank you, thank you so much. That's ah oh that's wonderful. That's touching. Thank you so much. Thank you? Um lisette amazing and a huge thank you to you? the listeners for tuning in for staying to the end. Ah, please do subscribe if you're not already. You can keep up to date on future episodes of the inclusion Bites podcast that's b I t yes, tell your friends tell your colleagues please share this I have a number of other exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you'll be equally inspired by over the next few weeks and months and of course if you'd like to be a guest. And please let me know I welcome any comments and suggestions on how I can improve future shows if that's possible to Jo Dot Lockwood a sea change happen dot code u k and finally my name is Joanne Lockwood it's been an absolute honor and pleasure to host this podcast for today. Catch you next time. Bye.