Joanne Lockwood: Hello everyone my name is Joanne Lockwit and I'm your host for the inclusion bytees podcast in this series I have interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation about the subject of inclusion belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. Like to join me in the future then please do drop me a align to Jo Dot Lockward as t changee happen dot code it uk that's S Wly changeapp dot code it uk you can catch up with all other previous shows on Itunes Spotify and the usual places so plug in your headphones grab adff. Ah let's get going today is episode 63 with the title only ourselves can free our minds and I have the absolute honor and privilege to work on Maureen Pascal Maureen describes herself as an armchair freedom fighter an inside outsider. She is also a program manager a safeguarding adults trainer and assertive coach when I asked Maureen to describe a superpower. She said it's her ability to see issues from all sorts of perspectives simultaneously and with empathy hello maureen welcome to the show.
Moreen Pascal: Hi Jo thank you for having me honestly, it's a privilege and an honor to be invited to do my so box thing um to be invited to talk about. Issues and ah situations around the world around inclusion and belonging and for me like we were saying earlier ah equality and diversity for me also complements those central values and. Just listening to you introduced me and my ramscheckle set of job roles and influences I think altogether do they do describe who I am and why I guess I've met you in the none place why I work for house and None network. 1 of the things that I do um as a child and that title only ourselves can through our minds I do really hope I'm not misquoting the wonderful Bob Marley our ip ah his music was an essential part of the way I was brought up in North London says something about my cultural heritage which is caribbean. It's also a nod to my parents when they came to this country. Um, all those years ago in the 50 s they brought ah their culture with them and that reference to insider outsider. Is to do with the fact that I had more than one cultural influence going on in my life and I think this is true for a lot of people who are none none third generation is that you're almost looking at the same situation that somebody who's born in that country with one dimensional culture if I've brought it that way. Is only seen it in one way. So food take through classic one. There's food you have at school and there's food you have at home when you're growing up. There's the music you hear when you go up with your friends and there's the music you hear when you go out to um. Cultural parties you know christenings past Christmas events and so on this sort of double vision almost like I would say like a a superpower super a super skill because you realize that actually when you're growing up. Um. The way we're socialized and normalized into a country. You could only understand how blinker that is when you have another way of looking at the same situation because of perhaps culture or travel or some other influence that's going on in your life and um.
Moreen Pascal: Ah, take the hat my hat off to people and in this particular case to my parents and all that generation who traveled halfway from the world and in my parents' case has never left that island until they came to Britain and so when they made the decision to leave. It was a huge decision. Um, and. Very grateful for this opportunity to do this podcast with you because I almost feel maybe because I'm getting older I want to pay tribute to all those inferences in my life and actually it starts with my parents. You know that reference he made to me been um, ah well I saiddy armchair liberator armchair freedom fighter. But is definitely a nod to my father who when we were growing up as kids he always talked about the political situation of the world. He didn't just talk about our woes and our challenges he always connected it with what was going on in Kenya and what was going on in South Africa and even though I wasn't from sahaku or Kenya. Think at an early age it developed that kind of political way of looking at things and to show the interconnectivity between things that don't look as if they're connected at all and um and he was like that because he himself in. On the island of grenado where he was born. Um, the island was still part of the british empire at that time in the fifty s and he was definitely part of the movement. The trade union movement that was beginning to challenge that kind of cultural hegmony and his generation of young people. Um, were very active and eventually it did lead to grenada having its none homegrown prime minister rather than the governor general but from the form you know the Uk so very early on I say the influence of my father and god bless him. Um. Been really important and I think I've taken that through life that I look at the struggles around inclusion and belonging through a political lens and which is why social justice and um equality so important to me I was a child when. You know the race relations act as it was called then and the sexist cru nation act were coming in I wasn't aware of them. But that's my era That's my decade the seventy s and there was lots going on Joe. There was I remember watching television still black and white in those days and. Seeing this woman with this enormous afro I had no idea who she was but I just remember be aruck by her and the way she was speaking and her confidence and her posture and.
Moreen Pascal: Ah, political statements I was a kid but I've then found out she was Angela Davis I don't know if if you were of Angela Davis part of a sort of um, black consciousness movement in America but this was a time when women were at the forefront. They weren't as vocal and loud and confident and knowledgeable like she was and she was a huge influence on um, my idea of myself and what you should be concerned about and what was important and challenging. The current war rays in british life during the 70 s and so on. So for my father to Andrew Davis um and then as I say Bob Marley with that quote. It's this sense that it's not easy. It's complex that on the None hand you're trying to free yourself from a situation of. Empire oppression. Let's say let's get it out racism and at the same time There's also a process that has to begin inside your of yourself. There's all so that so his very clever quote that as a result of that experience of colonies and colonization. There's the act of colonizing your mind and you almost because it's so powerful and so pervasive you almost have to transform yourself inside out as well as be actively protesting and marching and supporting and being allies with other people. So hence that quote and I think it's so much the way I approach these issues around thriving in the world that allows each and every one of us to be our full potential I see it rightly or wrongly through that through that lens and I don't think it's wrong I just think it's. It adds to the um, the utensils that we have to unpick what's going on I think a lot of decisions and the way we live have a political basis to them. But we don't necessarily investigate them or are aware of them. We just think it's how it is and so you know tough. But actually a lot of things can be undone and unravelled if we had the right political awareness knowledge structure and people in place hence hopefully that explains my armchair liberate a bit meaning that I'm not always th me up and down the streets. But I do support people who do bother to do that may call me a bit.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah.
Moreen Pascal: Yeah, yeah armchair.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I I mean you your quote for ah Bob Marley though I'm just I've just looked at that why you've been talking. It's from redemption redemption song and as we know redemption song is emphatically a protest against discrimination and yeah, the line is we are going to emancipate ourselves from mental slavery.
Moreen Pascal: I.
Joanne Lockwood: Because whilst others may free the body none but ourselves can free the mind and I think what you're saying is you you talk about colonization of your mind. Yes, you are free to walk down the street but there's a lot of other stuff in in one in your heads in the people and some people around you. Ah, that's what you've got to decolonize if you like you got to.
Moreen Pascal: Amen.
Moreen Pascal: Um, a yes.
Joanne Lockwood: Give yourself that mental freedom and escape that mental slavery if you like even though the the shackles have been long since shed.
Moreen Pascal: Yeah.
Moreen Pascal: Amen that absolutely and it's It's a hard battle. It's worrying. Yeah, let me give you an example was it just the other week have you heard of the case of Child Q this is um, it.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes, yes I heard it. Yes.
Moreen Pascal: You know when I was preparing and thinking about doing this podcast with you and becoming really enthusiastic and delighted to have this opportunity to get some stuff off my chest. This would be None of those most recent things that horrified me and kind of I guess emotionally mentally put me back a little bit even though this case hasn't. Nothing directly directly to do with me but that's the whole point Jo is that call me a bit wohoo but I do feel we are connected and just because that's happening to somebody's child in Hackney I believe the school was in London and for the benefit of your listeners who are not um. Know what I'm talking about in relation to char q this is a 15 year old black girl who was on her period who teacher thought she was on drugs or taking drugs they they smelt something. Um, and if I'm Misquoting. Forgive me folks but you can look this up because it's still live the case. Um in in terms of the court proceedings but it happened a couple years back she was 15 at the time the point is she's a black girl a minor in school where it's meant to be a place of safety. Mean you know for most people schools aren a safe space but hey we all know that's not quite true and the number of the story was her own teachers called the police on her because of their suspicion and then left her with the police. Who then proceeded to um, body search her you know without the right term strip. She was naked I haven't heard of something so personally traumatizing for a long time and when when people think you know people ask. What is structural racism for me that embodies it in a nutshell that action. That's what it is. It's a situation where you cannot envisage a young white girl I mean if it did happen to you on white girl I think parliament would be stormed. You know it's unthinkable. But it seems when it comes to in this case and I I am a black person so I'm gonna talk about black people because I can talk about you know from experience is when it comes to being a black person that level of abuse. Apart from leaving people like myself speech this because we're just like here. We go again? Um is um as I say even within her safe space in an institution education. She wasn't actually safe and the people she was looking to um to carry out that you know is zip parenttic.
Moreen Pascal: You know when your parents when you were somebody else's care which teachers carry out. They let her down badly because they had no right? She was a child and as ah, adolescent a minor. She had the right to have an adult have her parents called when the police were called none of that. What happened she was strict.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Moreen Pascal: She's on her period and that's already very personal excuse me and then to be strip searched and then to be apparently the officers and concerned were women in so many levels. Um I'm not connected to the family I'm not the parent. I'm not as a human being. It's horrific and as I say for a lot of people that could only take place because we're not equal black white children are not valued equally There is no respecting or boundaries her parents weren't included. It hurt me to my core and I'm not even I'm not a teacher I would even describe myself as an ecoted inspiration specialist because I'm not and that's the ironly Jo that you get pulled into things or somebody like me gets pulled into things. Even though your profession is something completely different. You cannot ignore what I found it I can't ignore what goes on on in other spaces and you find yourself in this inclusion space because from a social justice point of view I'm involved and that's the politics of it. And the luxuryx of just having a career in engineering or just being the trainer. It feels to me that for a lot of us. We have no choice. We can't just have a job. We have to also be part of the struggle that I can't I'm not speaking for all black people how dareby I can't I'm speaking for me and a lot of other people. Who find themselves drawn in maybe because of our personalities our star signs we we identify with other humans who suffer and I think that's been ingrained in me from a very long time and then the sadness of it. We take None steps forward and then something like that happens I think oh. Right? Then the shooting in Buffalo I think ah you know, ah, how do we do that know? How do how do people get up every day out of bed and carry on when again, it's not just the fact that they were black. Let's be absolutely clear about this It's people just going about their business with shopping more. Um Mondayundane can you get when you're doing your food shopping. They're going back their business shopping getting food in from their family people are expecting guests Grammy was coming next minute eleven people are shot by. Yeah, this is controversial. He's he's described in the media as a white supremacist domestic domestic terrorist and I think that's good that you know I was thinking if this had been some deal with modeling background. Okay, if it'd been reversed it would this would be all over the media.
Moreen Pascal: All over Twitter all over wherever it is and now I'm thinking I'm watching and waiting to see how this is going to be analyzed and picked over because I'm not hearing too much about the impact of that at the moment and. Um, and again if people want to ask me what is structural racism structural racism is when impacts of action are not viewed or not valued in the same way because the humans are not valued in the same way and that's it in a nutshell and we are where we are. We've made some progress in some areas. And then something like this happens I'm not american and yet I'm connected with what's going on because the the theme here was this white supremacist and this is where race comes into it. He's he said um you know he filmed what he was doing and that was the whole point. He wanted to get rid Ofs or whatever annihilate exterminate that people. So for me. Um, being the and the empathic person that I am the social justice person that I am the political person that I am I just look at this on a human level and think. Unless we um, this can only get worse unless there is a concerted systemic joins up and progressive alliance of people like-minded people to fight this this thing. Um, which is so dangerous for lots of groups of people. But I I would say to you do when it starts with None group of people and this this instance it was about skin color. This person has in their head that you're not as good as it then moves on to other groups of people. This is my experience I've been on the fan. It quite a long time. When None group of people start being the target of this kind of oppressive ah discriminatory in this instance racist attack other groups who are marginalized also become they start getting lined up too look at Hitler look at Germany I came back from a trip. Um, from crackle the other week and as part of that we went to outwitz and that was something I always wanted to do because I wanted to pay my respects and to see with my own eyes and to hear with my own ears. What had happened in Europe during that time and it's like we haven't let much you know we. In some respects. We've moved on a lot There hasn't been a war in Europe for a long time but heyho Russia and you Ukraine things you know we don't worry wait. it's it's not always linear. It's kind of if we're not careful cyclical and we have to keep alert and watchful.
Moreen Pascal: So But so so doing this with you today I am both happy to be doing this with you and having met you and we spoken before that's great and that's positive the other side of me is thinking. I'm a bit flat as a result of those 2 things that have happened and the collection is strong because but for the grace of God that could easily be my family member or somebody you know or me because the only thing was they were black that was it. They hadn't done anything to him. They were just going about their business.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Moreen Pascal: And they were out side mistake number one. It's hurtful. It's difficult and.
Joanne Lockwood: Is ah the massive difference of how people are perceived what they're doing in in the world in the streets depend on their skin gun and you're talking that I was thinking back to the January Sixth capital rights in the us there were.
Moreen Pascal: Fit.
Joanne Lockwood: White people touting automatic weapons standing on steps in public armed like like military armed if if those people had been black. The outcome would have been completely different there. There had been snipers that had been shot.
Moreen Pascal: Tell me.
Joanne Lockwood: Had been beaten up. They'd been but the white people were kind of rounded up and pushed away and then they did the investigation afterwards had it been black people. They had been ripe place trunctions military um, and I have no doubt that people would have been shot and killed on the spot. So how and that's America I appreciate that's America that's not the Uk. But we're still so as you've've talked about really this systemic structural racism that exists that that damning report that about the the met police aren't racist came out was it two years ago when over eighteen months ago and the whole country laughed and why hang on a minute how how can you seriously say.
Moreen Pascal: Ah.
Joanne Lockwood: There is structured and endemic racism within many police forces maybe individual officers know but endemic within this within the structure and as we've seen from child q racism existed there which is yeah I'm pleased to see the officers were suspended and and it's been a thorough investigation and child pro protection have been involved. And hopefully we'll see positive resolution but the default belief is that white people are good. Black people are always up to no good They're always up always bad and that exists in many many situations even today in 2022 and I'm sure I don't know if you take any solace from it that.
Moreen Pascal: Um, ah.
Joanne Lockwood: Cresta de dick eventually resigned or was pushed out when they they put the hand up and said yes we agreed the met police is sex is is is homophobic. It. It is racist at its core and something needs to be done because unless we're prepared to stand up and say this nothing will ever change and the rate of change I'm sure you'll you'll be frustrated with. I think even the world economic forum is saying it's goingnna be 50 to seventy years for even some level of gender equality in the western world. Let alone racial equality. Let alone disability equality algbt q plus equality etc so we've got a long way to go and if you don't fit into that.
Moreen Pascal: Um, and.
Joanne Lockwood: Straightjacket of normal or typical or on on the average of of the society then people are marginalized they do suffer discrimination in a structural systemic way.
Moreen Pascal: And I don't want the thing that keeps me going is I guess an optimism or a positivity like a lot of people involved in the kind of work that we do is if I don't have that belief in human humanity. Let's go. In people I um, there's another reason for people to just give up get depressed jacket all in there's so much that's going on at time times you have to turn the off it's disheartening on the posse side on the plus side. Um. What I witnessed around. Um Mr. Floyd's killing and how people from all around the world were doing their thing in support that gave that gave people like myself a bit older a lift, especially as they were younger people of all colors I remember when I used to demonstrate in the eighty s. Um, it was very rare to see white people join black people on a March and I would be marching about so a death in custody that was very common in those days I was a young person and people would be arrested and they wouldn't come out alive people think I make this stuff up. I talk from lived experience not because it's happened to my family and I don't operate on that level I just operate on the so community level and a humanity level but people would be arrested and then mysteriously they wouldn't be alive when they came out. They didn't even get as far as the courts. And there was None particular case that I was involved as a young person. Um the case of Colin Roach so another reference for people like so the recent social history and I don't think there was a public inquiry. So the family and the community set up an independent 1 and I was the administrator on that inquiry. That's one of my things that I did and I really wish I hadn't seen some of the photographs and I'm sure there's members of his family still around. But as part of the inquiry I saw some of the police photographs I wish I hadn't looked. But you know you're young when you think you know everything I still remember I'm still haunted by looking at those photographs so that was real for me. So I know it's american and this is the Uk but we have our own versions of some of this stuff and yet as I say on the positive side looking at what's going on today. 2042 after the um. Killing black lives matter and and the global global support I still have hope and support but right minded like minded people will still rise to the top we we will make progress I have to believe that and on that note, um.
Moreen Pascal: Recently became a non-executive director on the housing association and I don't I don't have normal background. You know, None ears an accountant or 20 years a Ceo of anything and um, but I was still I still went for this position. I was delighted that they said yet we want you on board I asked them as part of the feedback arts the chair. So why did I why did you make this offer by the way I wanted it. Thank you. He said you know you did a great interview meaning that they weren't just they weren't just doing positive discrimination. They were out there looking for somebody who thought differently about what they were doing. They looked at their own composition which was mainly why straight males they were honest about that. I said well if I'm on your board I can make a difference I will definitely compliment what you've got going on here. We're so different I can make a difference and they were laughing and I'll think you straight away. Perhaps I can we can work together because we he saw the humor in what I had to say it didn't work against me when he asked me the question I was able to be myself. They were able to be themselves. But I made it quite clear that yeah there's work to do because who you have around the table affects the person in the street. So simple as that if you haven't got that diversity of thought and experience. Um, it limits the way you look at things. So um. That was one of my reasons for putting myself forward. Wherever I said they liked it anyway and there I am probably the none black person of any gender on the board and so it's a small progress in that regard someone has to be none sometimes and I'm thinking. Like I've done in other roles. It would be good for tenants to see oh okay, this it's a bit more diverse on that board. What's our organization doing I think it's good for tenants are good I think it's good for suppliers contractors. The boards staff just to have a bit of difference on the board psychologically and for people's mental wellbeing. So we'll see how that goes but ah I'm really happy that they they took the argument that oh they were looking for something different, not the same old. Ah, you don't need to you know a htn and other organizations. We've done a lot of work around the composition of boards and. And you've been involved yourself and on one hand we recognized that things are changing so fast. The pandemic through everything up in the air and yet our way of approaching how we should staff decision making um vehicles.
Moreen Pascal: Is not keeping up. It's not keeping up with the rate of change and the disruption that's going on and the kind of agile thinking that you need um by by all means you need people who can do that banking treasury stuff I'm not talking about that I'm talking about people who can help with the. Instability of the situations that we find ourselves in society rather than just thinking you do a plan for 30 years which is you know what has associations. Do you have this 30 year plan nobody knows what's going to happen next year and yet we act as if we know what's going to happen in 30 years but the reality is look what's happened in the world in the last couple of years if it's taught us anything we need more people around the table who can help us solve stuff. We need to be less arrogant about the future we need to be much more respectful about the planet that where we live where none of us control or own excuses me. And there should be a lot more challenge to this idea that corporations and big conglomerates can do what the hell they like with the planet. Well it doesn't belong to them. It belongs to the people who live on it. That's all of us. Um, and I think you know that's in my own humble opinion. Maybe not so humble is way. How our thinking has to change you know all these certainties that we've had in the past we need to get rid of them and it's not happening fast enough as far as I'm concerned and.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I Ah complete I agree what you're saying about board diversity in many public sector organizations including even private housing Associations I mean I know National housing federation the chartitude housing and theres white papers come out looking at where.
Moreen Pascal: Um, and.
Joanne Lockwood: Dni board diversity is very high on the agenda if you look at the recent 2020 charity commission guidance dni board diversity is very high in the charity commission's agenda as well because as you as you well know we need to have lived relatable experience that matches.
Moreen Pascal: Are.
Joanne Lockwood: The the lived experience of the service users of the tenants as the beneficiaries of of the charity or housing association because we need to start rebuilding communities and if you don't have any association with the communities you're trying to support how can you provide resources and responses. Um, antisocial behavior. Um, that goes on in in the communities housing associations are reducing tendencies to now five to 7 years instead of lifetime tendencies that has a massive impact on how people treat their community. They don't see it as a house for life anymore. They see as a house for now.
Moreen Pascal: Michael and.
Moreen Pascal: Um, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Course people aren't going to value where they're living in the same way if it just feels transient. So I think there's a huge amount that representation can do of lived experience in public sector and and and and the private sector to make sure that people are being heard Otherwise we're designing systems and it would go back to this.
Moreen Pascal: Are.
Joanne Lockwood: I Think we're how we started it with but design systems for the incumbent privilege of society that is supposed to cope with the needs of the minority and the excluded How can there be any relation between the lived experience and and and knowing what people need in their communities and I think we have to value.
Moreen Pascal: Oh.
Joanne Lockwood: Lifts Spirit far more than I've done this in the past and I think that's fantastic. The fact that not only have you been through a poor diversity training program yourself and any D training program. But you've also got a role in a housing session is is forward thinking and actually start a.
Moreen Pascal: Um, well.
Joanne Lockwood: To to understand their responsibility and.
Moreen Pascal: I rewadding press with them. It sounds ironic because I wasn't being patronizing when I thought yes, that's the sort of organization I would like to be associated with but let me get None thing absolutely clear around the lived experience. Piece. We don't need anybody doing us any favors us. And even the term marginalize it still is in relation to the the people the groups in power. We're only marginalized because there is somebody who's dominating a situation. You know it's not a badge that we're wearing that there's something wrong with the way we think and operate it's. Do with power so that hence the marginality right? So I'm absolutely clear. Haven't been born here. Um there's a whole swathe of people that we don't take advantage their of their ability. So let me explain something because I'm working on this hypothesis. So I'm delighted and um I got there I still feel hopefully mainly on my own merit and strength of argument. Um, however, I also acknowledge that I had to probably imitate some of the ways in which the you know. These white straight males get onto boards I had to imitate how they do that and that is you use your connections. You know it's taken a long time but normally marginized people don't have connections I have finally learned if I if I've got to get anywhere I have to use my connections. And never did that because your ma you're on the outside anyway. So what connections apart from the people you know, professionally use your connections network learn in my case I had to um I did our ball Dixon's program not the ball diversity one. Because my background is not housing. My background is the sector charity community. So I didn't have the language of housing but I know I'm more than capable of learning it put my I was encouraged by a colleague to put myself on the course I was sponsored by another housing association I think out of their corporate social responsibility. Learned what I had to learn so that when I went into an needoo situation I could speak social housing the yeah the language, the territory and that's what the board excellence program definitely gave me was that and I set myself that goal that within a couple months of getting that I would apply and get this well but I learned through doing the program. Use your connections get stay up to date know know your know your stuff enough not expert but know enough about your stuff to operate credibly as a board member of course I'm just starting this journey and I expect to be learning I'm a learning specialist I'm happy to learn I'm always learning.
Moreen Pascal: In a way that's worked against me because I never focused on None thing always learning lots of different things but the important part I want to make about um how people are left out, not just about race or color or even class it's stereotypes about who. Is fit enough to make decisions and work together. But it's a stereotype. Um, so it it is about Facebook.
Joanne Lockwood: The culture fit the the face fit The you've been to the right school you've been, you've we've worked in a similar organization before had a similar. Yeah.
Moreen Pascal: And I and and I know there's comfort in that because it's it's you know I recognize that you know so we recruit each other and you know and it's comfortable I get that I'm a human I see that I'm not gonna but it needs to be challenged because I think it's day. It's not always um, helpful. The problems that we have now they're huge the challenges we have now um and having the same order response to it is not working. We can see that climate. You know the planets in the mess and here speaking internationally is not just about the Uk government or the american one is that you tend to find these elite groups in all countries. You know. You know who run countries. That's what they do and that's why they and I'm saying politically that that needs to be challenged much more so this is where it's more than jazz race or gender. It's it's about who's in charge. Oh ah, the mess they've made we need to stop allow them to make this mess and. Have a different kind of energy in the room but come back to locally in the Uk our own country I think that because of our school system where you have different branches of schools which is a bit different from my colleagues in Europe who I know I used to work closely with you know we've got a private system state system. Church system all sorts of systems. Ah which aids and abetsts this kind of fragmentization and elitism and people in the middle. Don't get a chance to I think we've gone backwards. They don't get a chance to influence what goes on so I would say even in government you have less. People from working class backgrounds even in the labor party than you used to. You know when the trade union movement was much more powerful than it is and there were it was called working men's colleges. You know those kind of places I mean I know they weren't perfect, but it gave people another outlet. To get that real education to operate in a political context. All those things have gone you might say rightly so but it's also had a sort of negative impact on people just you know the average poster in the street. What I would call working class in a positive sense. Not I'm not being I consider myself working class I'm not I'm not being demeaned when I say that it's about an attitude towards life. It's a mindset and and so even the lead party has become narrower in some respects as we all become middle class. If I'm we'm not contradicting myself and here I'm talking about culture I'm talking about cultures that the predominant culture is middle class even when you're not middle class the culture that predominates that is meant to be seened as better permeates everything how you recruit how you dress for bored.
Moreen Pascal: To be a board member is everywhere how you style your home and that's the culture that dominates has been the one that we should be you know imitating and that has an impact on all sorts of people. Um, and and I'm saying politically There's a kind of diversity that's kind of reduced even though you've got more women empowerment or more black people where there's a kind of another narrowing down that's happened over the years but that's just my opinion more than happy to be challenged on it.
Joanne Lockwood: I was a snigggger there as you're talking because I I remember probably about year eighteen months ago I was doing to work with hdn and I was I was presenting ah to the board of a housing association and um, I've been working with this housing association for a few months. Ah, various things and and I've been sort of pushed forward nominated to get to to present the report to the board and the person I was the asian with was one of the junior board members on hr or something and she sort subly said to me um, will you be wearing what you're wearing now. And I went I said well what's the dress code of the board. She said well just up your game a little bit sort of thing and I thought yeah you could you can see my um, my collarbone and my shoulders and you're nearly now telling me how I should I was addressing. This is this is a woman I mean I did plan.
Moreen Pascal: O.
Moreen Pascal: So.
Joanne Lockwood: Um, um, um, wearing a dress despite the fact you clearly see my shoulders. Um, um what I'm wearing now is a white t-shirt I mean if I told you this was a wedding dress. You go, You could probably believe me, it's it's white and it's a t-shirt but it could well be a modern style wedding. But so there's still this expectation about how you show up and how you look.
Moreen Pascal: Oh.
Moreen Pascal: Um, and.
Joanne Lockwood: It's respectful it. It adds value to your presence all these various things you're judged by so many things and even on a Zoom call you're judged by how you show up to a per your meeting. So.
Moreen Pascal: Um, what? yeah and this is the contradiction for me inside Outsider I get all of those things I also fight against it because all I'm interested in is the content of what you have to say I really am That's all I'm listening for when I'm talking to someone.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Moreen Pascal: And yet what you're saying there. What I've just been referring to is the appearance of things often is more important than what's actually going on. So if you look respectable if you look like you're part of us sometimes that seems to have more weight. Then the intelligent and the incompetence of what's being said and nobody is scrutinizing that because the person who's saying it looks apart as I call it they look in charge. They look sensible. They look and I'm thinking. That's why people get away with murder because is that this bit like um. Ah, present government they sound and look the part and and yet they can carry on making incredible mistakes that you could never make in another. You know, not in a corporate setting or a public sector setting without being sacked but they sound the part they look the part. Um. Call me shallow. But I think that that's one of my bug bears is that we're a very shallow society in a depth seems to have lost given way to appearance and superficiality. Um I'd ever.
Joanne Lockwood: I realized I I I think I have more trust in people that are more authentic and and that doesn't mean wearing a suit and tie wearing a a a dress that looks or Jet wearing a dress with a dragone and and and heeled shoes or things like this.
Moreen Pascal: Ah.
Joanne Lockwood: I always think well does this person look authentic. Do they look comfortable in their own skin. Do they do they are they comfortable in front of me that means far more than someone who's squashed themselves into this formal suit of Armour.
Moreen Pascal: And.
Joanne Lockwood: At the corporate image and I think some of the things on the covid you know in the covid announcements on ah, five o'clock every every night it were just 3 suits or 3 suits and and a woman in a dress with a jacket on it was kind of thinking. I want I want I want to see someone who's not is perpe a tie off now I have a jacket on actually say look here's what I believe not kind of the corporate line like but that then we become disruptors. We become subversive. We become activists. We become outliers that yeah.
Moreen Pascal: Um, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: On the edge of society and isn't this the problem where we go back to power privilege they're scared of of outsiders because and I don't I don't mean everybody I Just fundamentally privilege protects privilege is the way we do things only we know how to do things properly.
Moreen Pascal: Um, oh.
Moreen Pascal: 4
Joanne Lockwood: Only we know how to behave How can we trust anyone who's an weak, an outsider a lower class person. How can we trust someone who hasn't been to Eton because what do they know we think far bigger than they can ever think and these are the perceptions that and you bring someone who's who's prepared to be actually I don't want to play by your rules.
Moreen Pascal: Um, or.
Joanne Lockwood: Everyone gets really scared. They get to their panic. So but oh this person's a hand grenade. What's going to go on next and they're worried about disruption aren't they.
Moreen Pascal: I Couldn't agree more again. So much been going on in the media Jake The young footballer who came out as gay recently was it championship but don't think it's premiership Anyway, it's one of those ships and the irony.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes, yes, yes.
Moreen Pascal: Okay, you know the the forces that catch him that he's fought against obviously he's 17 I can't believe but anyway the strength of mind and purpose. He must have to do what he did okay but ironically the forces that in football that stop that because we all know. This idea there are no gay footballers a loads of nonsense but you know it has to be maintained because the image of the game and someone by the powers that be and that includes some of the footballers and the irony is that you know because we've got this maco image. Oh I imagine this matcher image that football's a man's game where we you know. And then to have somebody come out as gay. We can't have that because it kind of contradicts our we can't we can't line up the possibility that somebody can play football and they get at the same time It's like the None don't go whatever the forces are that stop people from coming out in sports but football in particular. Then you have this young what I would call disruptor just come out just do it I'm 17 I got nothing to lose and then he would probably be seen as being you know the prejudices he's weak gay yeah to be gay equals weak equals effeminate equals. It's the opposite of macho masculine. But he said toxic masculinity because that football has this aor perception in the people who who follow it and the irony is again his behavior there is more strength in what he's done because he knows he said himself. He's probably open to himself up for attention that he doesn't want you know.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Moreen Pascal: Negative attention and for me the ability to be an outlier that he's done just now because he is an outlier for sure because he's what the none or none person infers in 30 years to have done what he's done I'm seeing him as the strong. That's the strong individual. That's the person with who I'd want to be sat around my table helping me make decisions. This person has demonstrated to me. They're fearless. They think for themselves. Um, etc, etc. But he'd probably be the last person because of the prejudice because of these years of toxic masculinity. He's the last person who's going to be invited to um, you know, sit around the table and help make decisions. But the irony is he has more courage. Foresight modernity. Whatever you want to call it his little finger compared to the people who keep the fa propped up and then you have this contradiction that these is you know, um outlines of exactly the people you often need to move things along to open things up.
Joanne Lockwood: And so.
Moreen Pascal: And yet it's this great big drama because 1 teenage boy man young person has come out and said he's gay and it's a big deal in the media I mean it's something to celebrate but it's also a reflection. How sad we are and how slow progress is at the same time. So it's one of those events again. Another one I must stop listening to the radio and stuff where I'm delighted on the None hand but I'm also sad on the other that progress is so slow and I'm willing denial as well.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, yeah. Ah, then if you watch Oh yeah.
Moreen Pascal: About what goes on just making that connection with um, you know the power dressing and all of that and this armoury that we're almost in denial that we're just humans and we have to put on this armourory just to get us ah through a meeting and to be convincing and be taken seriously is ridiculous.
Joanne Lockwood: So yeah, now I was watching ah I if you watched the series freeze the fear with Wim Hof um I was watching the other night and when they're doing this. They were doing the jump off the bridge thing and I was watching. Um.
Moreen Pascal: This predict. There's no authenticity. There. So I agree with you? yes. Okay, yes, yes.
Joanne Lockwood: Professor Green when when he was at the top there and he was seeking inside himself and he decided out of all of them. He was the only one not to jump off the bridge and he climbed back over and um I remember thinking wow you know.
Moreen Pascal: Um, okay oh.
Joanne Lockwood: Everyone else done it. Why couldn't you that I listen to him he said jumping would have be the easiest thing to do by not jumping. It was a tougher decision for him because it would been easier to go with peer pressure. It'd been easy to do what was expected easier because everyone else has to walk back off and say.
Moreen Pascal: Um.
Joanne Lockwood: Hang on it I don't need to do this for you and actually I don't need to do it for me I value my life I Want to be a parent I Want to be a husband I Want to continue my life and I have a responsibility to people who love me not to put my life in danger and I thought Wow yet you're so right.
Moreen Pascal: Um, yeah.
Moreen Pascal: Um, Wow. Ah, oh.
Joanne Lockwood: Go along with what's expected for fear of letting people down for fit because it's easier and then when we stop and question it think actually the most important thing I could do here is what feels right for me and that takes more strength to swim against the tide than just to just go with a flow and I think as what you're saying here about.
Moreen Pascal: Um I am.
Joanne Lockwood: But Jake Daniels is placed for blackpo which is in as you say you play in the championship the other week he came for first appearance. It's so easy to go with the flow because that's what society expects.
Moreen Pascal: It's so easy because you don't want that attention. You know you know you don't want to stir things up. Yeah, it's like keeping a head low almost down um and and therefore not being being able to be yourself and I think that's what I mean in the introduction that you did around me. Sometimes I feel exactly like an outside and I mean I'm ah outside it looking in That's what it feels like sometimes to not be part of the mainstream but I don't necessarily see that as a burden I sometimes I sometimes see that as an advantage. And that's what I mean about being able to see things in more. Yeah if you're in the circle you're looking out into the edges if you're on the edge you're looking beyond the edge and you're looking into the circle. That's how I I would describe it and I think part of freeing your mind is to stop allowing the dominant. Culture to tell you that what you are bringing to the table is not valuable so actually be that being a minority is valuable because you're bringing a different disruptive and perspective whereas if you accept. The status quo being a minority something down negative disadvantaged. No sometimes it is but no sometimes being a minority means that your thinking is is acute because you be in those spaces where you're not included equally not being part of the mainstream and brings to creativity. Because to survive you have to think outside I ah do like that expression I'm not None alive you have to think outside the box. Um b go against the grain because you're not part of the grain anyway, in my case, you know so you often find that you're doing something a bit different because you're not part of the grain. But. That that can sometimes feel very good and so professor green's um, what you've just described about what he did on the program for me. That's also about having the courage I used to call it assertiveness but you know and I still will use that term part of that is to have the courage to be your own person. Even when other people are contradicting you going against you is to have that strength of conviction that you know like you said he doesn't owe the cast or the program makers anything he will still be himself as well as an entertainer with an agent and getting paid. Whatever it is. He was still be himself which is the other roles that he plays and he was bringing that to the show and that's what for me is being authentic. You're not putting on an armor. You're not taking it off. You're not being this for somebody else to fit in and I think in a way that's kind of like a definition or struggle. That's the whole.
Moreen Pascal: That's how you disrupt things is having the strength of mind even when the forces you know the power forces are incredible. Some people have been sacked for be themselves. Some people have lost their lives for being themselves. It's very courageous. Um, I know I'm not fighting any particular. Yeah I'm doing it in the luxury with my own armchair. But I'm with those people you're those people this is controversial that see what you think of this show you know the climate change people who buy on the boatway. Yes, yes, um.
Joanne Lockwood: Exile extension rebellion. Yeah.
Moreen Pascal: Why I won't personally do it myself because I'll be too concerned about the police and today you know and the cold. Whatever I totally have due respect for them and I support them even though a lot of people are anti them because they're getting the way with cars and. People get into places and stuff like that I see I'm with them morally because they're saying wake up, you're you're all sleeping people. We've got to do something dramatic to get you to pay attention and um I get what they're trying to do so even if I had been driving along and they were doing that I were just. Swallow it down I would because they've got nerve and maybe privilege when the police come perhaps they don't get but actually some have been thrown into the ban. But I'm not so sure what would happen to me I need to be alive I need to stay around a bit longer.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah.
Moreen Pascal: I Totally support what they're doing even though it's annoying to a lot of people.
Joanne Lockwood: If you look at I mean I saw something the news yesterday I'm not sure I was going ahead that but there's a planned tube strike for Jubilee weekend. So if you're a ah, an unsatisfied worker with a union or with a body that represents you you have the power in your work.
Moreen Pascal: Are.
Joanne Lockwood: Set to to influence your employer's behavior and decisions by using strike action by using disruption within your workplace to draw home your cause if you're testing about the planet. The only course of action you have.
Moreen Pascal: Um, a yes.
Joanne Lockwood: Is to go on strike to impact other people and that means closing a bridge that means disrupting people's lives blocking fuel tankers if the fuel tankers when um on strike people go Oh That's okay, but if if it distinct from Rebellion blockade that Sin is not okay, hang on a minute. If you want to protest against the Planet. You should have the same rights as somebody who wants to protest against the employer in a way I don't agree with violence I don't agree with anything that's violent. But I Do agree people have the right to create a disruption that highlights a point within the law and this it's not getting into the.
Moreen Pascal: Um, you know.
Moreen Pascal: Um, and.
Joanne Lockwood: The the change of the laws. We're looking at and the the social Justice act and presenting people preventing people from from protesting I think providing people to act within the law as it was I'm not sure about the new law. But as it was I I think we we should all have the right to be standup be counted. We don't live in a in a dictatorship We don't live in a a state where the people.
Moreen Pascal: Are.
Joanne Lockwood: Can't speak especially now with social media. Everybody can be a publisher. Everyone's an author. Everyone's an activist. Everyone can get Twitter following suddenly you can you can be an influencer in your as you said in your own armchair in your in your in your kitchen. So we all have the power to to create our cause one thing I realize is.
Moreen Pascal: Um, yes.
Moreen Pascal: Um.
Joanne Lockwood: I spent best part of 50 years of my life not having a specific identity I just was I fitted into the majority box I fitted into the privilege box and it's not since I I gender transitioned at the age of 52 that I realized that suddenly I do have an identity.
Moreen Pascal: No.
Joanne Lockwood: I Do have to think about how I fit into the planet now I do have to think about what I meet or who I am in relation to other people which I never thought about before I've also realized that the doors that used to open really easily don't seem to open in the same way as they did before So whether it's because I'm.
Moreen Pascal: Are.
Moreen Pascal: Um, and.
Joanne Lockwood: In my fifty s now I'm in 57 whether it's because I'm a woman and whether it's because I'm trans or whether it's because I'm antbt perceived or maybe im I'm a bit too queer to fit into the any any beauty standards of gender. Maybe it's those things or maybe it's just because I mix with different people now I don't know.
Moreen Pascal: Oh.
Joanne Lockwood: But I've noticed there's more friction in opportunities than there used to be um, but what I have found is more camaraderie is the 1 word I'm more empathy and compassion with other people who as you say marginalized marginalized by society not marginalized as a person. Yeah.
Moreen Pascal: Um, who.
Moreen Pascal: No absolutely yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Marginalized by the privilege I Completely agree with that. So I find more camaragerie within the marginalized the the outliers the on the edges and I find that completely powerful and I and I would never have had conversations like this with you and other people I've met had I been.
Moreen Pascal: Um, ah.
Joanne Lockwood: In my own Ivory Tower not looking out and seeing what's going on in the world and I think people try to weaponize the word woke to me I'm proud to be woke I'm a woke I'm woken up to the issues of social Justice The issues of the planet. The issues are occur on the world I'm not perfect.
Moreen Pascal: Are.
Joanne Lockwood: Could do more I'm not sitting here putting myself in in a pedestal saying I'm I'm ah I'm a wonderful person these days but my direction of travel is being more awake to what's going on in the world and I want to learn more about it. Not push back and go hang on a minute you're threatening my space.
Moreen Pascal: And this will actually say amen to that. Um, and like you just said we probably we we us to would never have met if for the same reason you just outlined you know this space that we're in as I say I'm not a specialist I'm not an expert around. Eti mine is. Call me Sunday school you know I just want everyone to be happy I just want everybody nobody owns this planet no one's in charge call me a hippie I just want and want everyone to be happy and to the best of viability. But there's so much in the way of that and that's why some of us are drawn to this space. While also trying to have our own lives. You know what? I mean Jo is that you're contributing to that part of you but you also just want to be yourself which is like loafing your out on watching telly ge to me. It's it's yeah as I say it can be warying sometimes when. Stuff still happens and you just feel for people but we can't let let up. There's too much work to be done and but let's just get this trait. Also we're not being paid favors here. It's about opening up. The panorama the mosaic of human talent there is that we've been denial about because the way our society is set up is to keep certain types of talent and ability rack up and only get space to a certain and that's to all a while disadvantage as. But the other thing I just want to say before you know, um in terms of the things I do I was thinking what is the connection between all of them because they seem so disconnected but actually they are connected so when I'm doing safeguarding training this is for people who work with people who could be victims of other people's abuse you know so. People with perhaps physical learning disabilities because of age or dementia or they are vulnerable not in and of themselves. But to people who may wish to exploit that and so safeguarded for me is also an extension. Of the quality and the inclusion piece because it recognizes that for some people have you seen that wonderful diagram about the difference is in order to level up the playing field. We have to put in training with the staff who work with and deliver services to people who are. More vulnerable to abuse and exploitation because of who they are and for me that is part of Egi is recognizing and seeing they exist rather than in the olden days victorian times show people in a home and forget about them. We've moved on from that. So thank god for that. Um.
Moreen Pascal: So for me, there's a connection with that becoming your board. Non-exe executive director for me is also about etr not only because of who I am and the difference I'm bringing to the table. Um, it's putting my money where my mouth is is I've been moaning about where decisions are made. And so I'm putting myself up for being part of decisionmaking processes. It's lower level than the government but it's still housing. Associations have a great influence on people's life like I've heard you talk about um your home is a huge factor in your well-being and the way you see yourself. So that's that connection I also believe I'm ah I'm into mentoring and the support that none of us get to anywhere without the support of other people and I've been a key advocate of mentoring ah for a very long time before I joined housing diversity network. And the mentoring was all always about supporting young people. You know that stage where you're still becoming yourself or not, you know that awkward period in our lives that a lot. You know we some of us have easier transitions. Others of us. It's very troublesome and I used to be. Running a mentoring program that put the most unlikely people together with teenagers and that taught me something too that when you support a young person your the gift. But you're given that young person and I'm saying that as the person who was managing the scheme not as the mentor so I can pick up those mentors these random members of community. So one of my favorite pairings was a retired older gentleman middle class cuffley blah blah blah headol h child. Yeah, Dubai flying around the world paired him with a fourteen year old boy single parent mums from South Africa you couldn't get more dissimilar to people but the beauty of mentoring is I know that this mentor. Because I recruited him um was humane humane had the time wanted to give back I have an individual here who's talented I mean they usually are aren't they naughty people naughty kids. Um. Multi-tanted but totally and without direction lost put these 2 together the magic that happened the long story I'm short of it is that young person is now running his own business and yes of course.
Moreen Pascal: Influence of his family and friends may have come into it but I know for sure the influence of that mentor was huge because he said so and for me this is where you know the upside of the work that we do. There are still small. Wonderful games happening not always with edi on the label. But it's the action that particular white man he he wasn't seeing himself as an egi warrior but but he recognized that he'd had certain advantages in life and this person hasn't got any and I think he saw a little bit of himself and that was a mischievous side in him. The None did fantastic work together and for me that as that is that story is as much about inclusion and social justice as the big things it doesn't always have to be a big action. It's a mindset. It's about knowing who your tribal and who just wants good for people. And I think I would include that mentor in that group. He just wanted good for somebody else and he wasn't phased by a young black student. He wasn't I oh what do I do who it's like reverse you know he was happy to go into that space. But that's also about mindset that we've we've we've been talking about and sometimes um, the mindset can be inferenced by exposure to people or maybe you've always had that mindset. You just didn't know it until you've been given that opportunity. So I just wanted to throw that in because it's just a reflection of who I am as an individual. And where I get my influences from and I carry that community thing with me everywhere I go that wherever you're doing for me. It should have an impact somewhere or relevance to the community. The people out there, especially the most vulnerable people in society. It should have some benefit otherwise I'm not interested.
Joanne Lockwood: And fantastic and I think on that note, um, that's amazing. So thank you so much I mean I ah can't believe it's been over an hour. We've been chatting away and we could occur him for um and fo and please we're gonna be meeting up in person in the cupric's time and at the think tank in Birmingham won't we so be great to have a.
Moreen Pascal: That's that's why in.
Moreen Pascal: We are yes.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, spend some more time together and and and chat more. But no, it's been really insightful I've loved to hear your perspective and your armchair activism and your inside outsider ah perspective on things knows it's It's stimulated a lot in my head as well. So more how can people get hold of you if they if they'd like to take some mep if it's.
Moreen Pascal: Oh I'd love to connect with people like- mindded people people just you know curious nosy whatever um Linkedin so you've got my name. Um I don't think there are there are that many people who've got my name in the world. So I'm quite easy to find on Linkedin.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, reflect on this conversation.
Joanne Lockwood: Cha us a out because you know you don't spell more and in a traditional way to.
Moreen Pascal: Um, and maybe Jo you can and o yeah, yeah, right? It's spelt like dory. Yeah, it's not spelt in the irish way. So it's mordoubleenfirst name and then my surname family name is pascalpascal as in the french philosopher for those who know that yes mathematician as well. That's right, the mathematician pascal. Yes yes.
Joanne Lockwood: Oh I was thinking the program any language. So um, I'm a computer worst the programming language. Yeah, yeah, yes, that's yeah, so that's my I T I know I I suppose maybe that was named after the philosopher I suppose maybe.
Moreen Pascal: Yes, I have no idea how I got that name but here we are. That's another. That's another podcast. Ah.
Joanne Lockwood: And knows. The podcast and now I've got my name. So Yeah I I the luxury of picking my own name. So Yeah of what just get given them. Yeah yeah I pick both my names. That's that's an a story from another Daysar I made made made my entire name Up. It's ah.
Moreen Pascal: What luck was lock was no, not lock really. Um, oh Wow Oh wow.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it's not my family name at all. So anyway, it's is it's podcast is about you. So it's ah if someone can interview me and ask me that question another day. So thank you so much. Um, as as as maruren said yeah Linkedin is a great place to get get in contact.
Moreen Pascal: Um, would be.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, search for such a morning passco. You'll find her on Linkedin all over the place. So yeah, and so a huge thanks to you? The listener. Um for tuning in for getting this far stand to the end. Absolutely fantastic if you're not already subscribe please do subscribe on Itunes Spotify the usual places. Future episodes of the inclusion Bites podcast that's b it t yes, please tell your friends tell your colleagues please share this episode if you've enjoyed it. I've also a number of other exciting guests already lined up I'm sure we'd be equally inspired by over the next few weeks and months and of course if you'd like to be a guest. Please let me know. And I'd also welcome feedback and suggestions on how I can improve the show, please email me to Jo Dot Lockwood as c change happen dot cod ek and finally my name is Joanne Lockwood it's been an absolute pleasure to host his podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.