Joanne Lockwood: Hello everyone my name is Joanne Lockwoodt and I'm your host for the inclusion Bites podcast in this series I have interviewed a number of amazing people simply had a conversation about the subject of inclusion belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. To join me in the future then please do drop me line to Jo Dot Lockwood that t changeapp dot cod uk that's S Wly changeapp dot code at uk you can catch up with all of the preview shows on Itunes Spotify and the usual places so plug any headphones grab a df. And let's get going today is episode 64 with a title do what you love? Love what you do and I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Mike Pagan Mike describes himself as a skilled communicator non-exec director facilitator. Plus. Lights a bit of swimming and other random weekend warrior activities when asked Mike to describe his superpower. He said I have a voice I am a swimmer a father brother husband and friend none of which are superpowers because he doesn't need one but that's not to say he doesn't have many different types of kryptonite.
Mike Pagan: All of it doesn't.
Joanne Lockwood: No doubt we'll find out about those in a minute hello Mike Welcome to the show.
Mike Pagan: Thank you for having me and I'm I'm really looking forward to this excited to be in your presence and discussing all the wonders of inclusivity and everything that goes with that. Um, but yes i' um, um yes I'm buzzing in a good place.
Joanne Lockwood: It fantastic I mean we we caught up with each other in Newport the other week didn't we had a professional speaking association conference and like anything we don't get much chance to talk. But I'm gonna have an hour with you now and it's gonna be amazing. We're gonna get to know each other better. So welcome aboard Mike Mike tell me then.
Mike Pagan: Now. Thank you for having me.
Joanne Lockwood: Do what? you love? What? love what? you do tell me about your your mantra and your ethos.
Mike Pagan: Well, the simplicity of do what you love and love what you do is is that whole thing when we have the right people around us. We can do more of what we love loving what we do when we struggle with challenges around isolation and loneliness and support and. Challenges but that that happen for everybody. Be that professional or or personal then we lose the love and our Mojo goes our energy drops and and and we go off the boil So a lot a lot of what I talk about and what my focus is on I describe as mental wealth. So ah, when we have a positive mental Wealth Bank balance then we're able to do more of what we love and love what we do along the way and that means having more fun having and more enjoyment and when things go wrong. We We can be braver and we can bounce back more effectively because we've got good people around us helping us along the way. That's it in a simple nutshell ish.
Joanne Lockwood: I get it I honestly I really get that I mean one of the things that I changed my entire career my entire life five years ago and people say to me when you think about retiring I said I don't need to retire because I do what I love I have my passion I want to keep doing what I do for as long as i. Long as I'm physically incapable of doing it. Um, and I don't see I don't describe what I do as work anymore I describe what I do as as a passion project something I enjoy the people I meet the conversations I have I'd like to think I could I would do this if I was. Financially independently wealthy I'd like to think I would continue doing this because it is truly what I love doing and so I completely get that right.
Mike Pagan: And that therein lies that line isn't it that says if you're doing what you're passionate about and what your purpose is and and all those those peas the positive peas then funnily enough. You'll never work a day in your life and and you see people that ah a. A trades person who sort of who works with wood and what they create or a potter and and so on and they're totally obsessed and in love with that whole thing that they're doing um, okay, they might not be buying the next gazillion dollar house and mansion on whatever else, but they are so much happier and and that's the thing to do what you love. Love what you're doing.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's also quite a a privileged statement isn't not everybody is fortunate enough or has the circumstances in order to do what they love that they that often which probably comes into your your your um your mental wealth is how. People still find joy in what they do Even though it maybe isn't their current patch from Project. So.
Mike Pagan: Yeah, that and therein lies the the dead end job the the glass ceiling the that negative environment where the the boss is a bully and you just but I still got to pay the mortgage and I've got to put. Choose on my children's feet and whatever else and it's and it's just finding that way. Forward. Ah, however, when we get into that environment and that's obviously in general a negative sphere when you have better people around you asking better questions of you than you can of yourself. That's where different answers can be uncovered and obviously obviously you have to have an appetite for change which many people don't and therefore they sort of get caught in that vortex of of not progressing and not moving but we're just that that None person asking the right question on the right. Day in the right hour in the right weather front. Whatever it is can be absolutely life changing um in the in the same way you can you can be out and about um, sort of and just find love um, bumping into somebody on the street that you've never met before well it it happens and I'm not saying we've got to sit there waiting for. Lightning to strike before we can change our path and so that's why you find that proactively supportive people that are there with you. They've got your back rather than just being a name in your phone.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, for sure and I completely agree that that support network is is really really key because we're we're greater than the sum of our parts then aren't we where we become more than it's not 1 plus one. It's one plus none plus 10 we we can grow exponentially by having that. Um. Somebody around believing in you I think sometimes someone tapping you on the shoulder saying you've got this, you can do this. It gives a lot of inspiration to people.
Mike Pagan: Um, it's it's it's a scary reality because just just to go sad for a moment but when I when I was writing my book on mental wealth um in that process of doing that I lost a friend to suicide and he was going through an ugly divorce. Ah, estranged from his son as well and covid and loneliness and isolation and this was a very intelligent man who knew exactly what he was doing and so I'm not saying that if I had or somebody else had asked a right question or a different question. There could have been a different answer. But it's that reality of when somebody gets into that space of just finding that one person just coming up with ah a different angle a different light because clearly the monsters in his head were so loud. Um that that's what he was listening to and I and I don't claim that story for for me as a uniqueness. Because unfortunately too many of us and I know I've listened to your some of your shows and you've talked about the the people who've gone in your life. Um, and so so it's it's unfortunately it's an all too familiar tale. But if we if some of those people had had. Ah, group of others asking better questions at the right time in the right environment who knows what solutions or different circumstances could have been manifested by that None question and that's that's why we when we proactively seek and understand where our strengths are in our support network. But. But to begin with we have to understand where we currently are and what the baseline is and sometimes that's actually a lot lower than people realize at none.
Joanne Lockwood: So yeah, a lot of people are there' this fair of showing vulnerability isn't it. It's the the fear of losing face that that pride becomes before a fall statement. It's people think the world is so insurmountable.
Mike Pagan: And the knowledge like.
Joanne Lockwood: Because there's this focus on a barrier that they can't pass and it's so sad I mean you you said None of my I've had I think I think I went down that at least I know at least None people have taken their life through suicide past my brother who did something it rather stupid. Um, so he ended up taking his life. But I don't think he was deliberate. Ah. So yeah, it's and one of those people what the crux of his pain was failing his business. He thought he was never going to recover it. Yeah people going to the the the receivers were going to come in and shut him down and after he is death. All of his friends rallied round his wife and resolved all of the problems that he had and it's just so often true that because everything can be fixed or changed but sometimes.
Mike Pagan: And.
Joanne Lockwood: Asking for that help or being or people even spotting you need that help. It's a real challenge.
Mike Pagan: And ah, what one of the other things we do in that environment. We we invest our energy potentially in the wrong people or people that are not fit for purpose for the way forward. So a classic thing that I'll do with their clients large and small and so. I will ask them to but just start to create what I refer to as ah, a mental wealth scorecard and it's just writing down a list of all the people in your support network that you currently have and it varies some people will be able to write None names down somebody here to write 45 names down whatever. But.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Mike Pagan: Just jot down the name I mean I know in my wife's list that she has the dentist and that's not because she's having an affair with him. It's just because she's so paranoid about her teeth and what goes wrong and she's ah she's not a good dental patient and every time we go on holiday or the dentist goes on holiday the hour before. The day before there's always a problem There's always a crisis so she she doesn't quite have his number on speed dial. But it's certainly yeah, it's there. But so when we start listing these people in our support network and then then this is ah this is non-scientific. So. For anybody who's sitting anything I want some sort of academic referencing and everything else attachs to this? No, you're not getting that this is gut feel totally subjective I want you to now score those people on this on a scale of 1 to 10 yeah so where one is a low score 10 is a high score and people are just. Putting down these names. It could be sort of contacts friends with whatever it is that they are in theirs and and then the scoring is the real point here. Don't give somebody a higher score because you think they deserve it. Give them an honest score of how committed are they in your support network. And and that that's it don't because you're not going to show this to them so it doesn't matter what what number it is so if somebody scores are None None or a 3 they know you they're an acquaintance full stop now. that's that's it don't there's there's no other elements there that we need to go in and debate. We'll discuss. They know who you are you know who they are. That's about the length of it to just carry on your fours and fives. They know you because of a reason could be part of a community. You're involved could be part the school sports. Whatever it is. But if you didn't turn up for two months they won't pick up the phone to ring you and say how's it going Mike where have you been? whatever else um. And then you turn up me say where ah well I've I've been awake as a broke. My leg. Um, oh really didn't know that oh you, you don't need him to be limping to either way so that they're an acquaintance then you got your five s and your six s sorry so you that was none and None is 6 s and sevens now six s and sevens. Some of these will be your best friends so you've you've known them for years. You go to parties with you. You've even been on holiday with them. Whatever it is and and you see them regularly or you don't see them regularly but you've you've got real history there or you got real appetite. However. You're not going to show them your vulnerability. You're not going to ask them for professional financial advice support or insights. You're not going to be but financially vulnerable naked and and and ah open to them. Those are your None none.
Mike Pagan: And when it comes to your mental. Well scorecard that I focus in on here. It's only your none that matter and those are the ones and we add those up. So if you've got 3 eights that means you've got a total score of None if you've got nobody scoring none or None that's fine. That's a baseline that's a starting point. We realized that you haven't got. People it proactively got your back in that network in which case fine we we need to start building and then we go into ways of helping them build and support. But it's just that reality and there's a but particular um speaker friend colleague when I did this with her she went through the list and she realized that categorically. She had nobody that she could score an none 10 she was giving she was supporting she was doing everything for everybody else, but nobody in her support network truly had her back and it was and it was a said it said to me Mike absolutely this is an epiphany. Because I realize I'm I'm completely out of balance I haven't got what I need and it was just that changing her whole approach and focus to but being being but bit more selfish. Whatever words we want to do but the reality was right? Let's start building it. Um, and when you get to that point of proactively building a mental wealth team. You'll have anything between None and None people that score 8 Nines and 10 s um and we can we I'm sure we'll discuss more of that in a moment but it's it's just that initial baseline reality when you know and understand how. Your current support network is set up and whether it's actually fit for purpose for what's coming ahead rather than being fit for purpose for where we were two years ago five years ago whatever else because time has moved forward and will continue to every day.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm gonna give you another Wow there because as you're talking now I'm having a similar light bulb moment I didn't I wouldn't necessarily put it in the language you used it but I recognized some while ago that I had a lot of acquaintances I had a lot of people.
Mike Pagan: Are.
Joanne Lockwood: I was like the puppy dog I wanted to impress them because I thought if I impressed them I get favors back but the reality was I maybe got a dog treat occasionally but I wasn't getting a proactive engagement back again and and someone said to me. Gave me the phrase a couple of years ago hang around with radiators not drained and I realized that there were a number of people a lot of people in my life were sapping me of of my life force of my energy they were people I was having to invest all my effort in to keep the rat jib alive and if I didn't spin the plate. The space. Playkin question down they would never call me. They'd never know if I was interesting or not I'd be sort of trying to arrange meetings or trying to get nights out. They'd never reply or if they did they cancel and I realized a few years ago that that part of my life if I didn't call them I wouldn't miss them because it was just sucking my energy.
Mike Pagan: Debt.
Joanne Lockwood: Now realize I need to hang around with people who care as much about me as I do about them. They'll text me if I'm okay, we'll we'll chat about okay stuff you know mental Health you you feeling? great. How can I help real genuine conversations and so yeah, exactly what you're saying I've I've got ah maybe a couple of Nines and Tens Eight Nines and tens. Not a huge amount but I think I've offset it by getting rid of a lot of the None and belows that people who are actually distracting my life or putting me in situations I didn't really want to be in all the time.
Mike Pagan: It's It's the the reality check here is I'm not suggesting that people dump friendships and said I can't be your friend anymore because you're not committed to me enough. It's it's it's just in them in the mind's eye is dumping your mental. Um.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Mike Pagan: Anchorage to them so that you're actually realizing. Okay, this is a None ne-way relationship most of the time and I'm sort of I've got greater expectations of this relationship or this friendship that is willing to come from the other party. So it's time to just accept the fact that they um are one point zero and I need a 2.0 I need a 3.0 whatever it is I need to upgrade. Um, and oh yes, we'll still be friends and we'll still get on and everything else, but um, my my my personal. Ah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, yeah.
Mike Pagan: Necessity or demands of that friendship are now being recalibrated to the fact that it is more potentially um, superficial's too harsh, but it's it's it's that my expectations are becoming far more in check of what is realistic rather than me constantly being disappointed that set up.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Mike Pagan: He never pulls through or he never follows up or she's always busy and lets me down at the last minute. Okay, that's a 1 ne-way relationship in which case as long as you know that's the case then you have freedom to make choices to then invest in or seek out the positive.
Joanne Lockwood: Um, yeah I probably I produce the phrase drift away not dump because if I don't if I don't make the phone call The relationship doesn't doesn't exist if you like so I'm not dumping anybody I'm just.
Mike Pagan: Setup That's actually going to help you go forward.
Mike Pagan: Yes.
Mike Pagan: Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Not putting the effort into keeping the balloon in the air anymore I've just it just drifts off. Um and I've also recognized I have a number of associates contacts friends business professionals who have whichever category they fall into they often start a a conversation after several months ago seems it's I know it's a bit cheeky but can you out of the blue help me with something. It's like okay so I'm now there to help I'm not or they they beat around the Bush for 20 minutes and then say oh while I'm on the cool can I just say oh yeah I thought I thought that was coming. Why would you phone? Otherwise so it's also recognizing those. that that eq if you like the most intelligent to understand the game that's being played around you and help people see you. But.
Mike Pagan: Ah I've got one of the ches local to me and he he rings me out the blue. Um and he only works literally two hundred meters from but from my offices and and we've known each other for multiple years and we have a good sociable time when we go out and have a drink in a beer or whatever it is like. Plague sports occasionally but he's he's probably a None he's he's more than a 5 but he's certainly not a None and he ring up. Sit now Mike I've got a meeting I'm just about to get on to in on teams and you know me I I'm not very good at that and I'm thinking really. If I'm the best you've got to talked to about it. You really are struggling because so that's not my forte so please don't start ringing me afterwards about teams queries. But I'd be ringing you join and that's ah, certainly how that works but it's just that reality of of knowing that is um.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah.
Mike Pagan: It's ah it's a 1 ne-way relationship. Um, as and as much fun as it is when you're out and about and and everything from that point of View. That's great I Just on my expectations are in check and therefore I'm not offended disappointed or grumpy because other things aren't happening and it's and it's. And it's knowing that and then when we take it a step further and look at so so certain people that we need with specific skill sets in our lives and and those ah then when they're committed to us and helping us on the way then they can get really quite Brutal. Um. Which is what we need from time to time when we get to understand our self sabotage tactics and habits and everything else like that because ah, if somebody who was a ah lower score in this environment started giving you honest feedback on some of your perceived sabotage tactics that you have for yourself. Well okay. I could hear what you're saying there but a you're not close enough and I haven't given you permission to give me that sort of feedback and B What do you know? anyway because you don't know me well enough. Actually I really love doing that and it works So it's this.. There's ah, there's a 2 wo-way street there as well.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I sorry I'm just I'm I'm just chucking out loud there because I I actually have no no I I have ah I have some business buyers and various aspects of my business and I I was talking to 1 of them the other week and.
Mike Pagan: Don't don't apologize for chuckling out now that's good.
Joanne Lockwood: It became clear that they really didn't get me at all. Even though I thought they really did they they made they made a couple of statements and sort of sort of implied that oh I wouldn't do I wouldn't want to do that or that's not how you want to react act as it went and now you completely misunderstood by raison dtre that's exactly what I see as core to what I need. It's it's called into question my whole sort of relationship whether that person is a good advisor because if no I'm paying them they they obviously missed a key element of who I am or what? what my objectives are so yeah I mean think about now. Yeah, but the other thing I realized was yeah I went through my gender transition five or six years ago up
Mike Pagan: Yeah, and.
Joanne Lockwood: There was a point there when I stopped phoning a lot of people a lot of people stop phoning me and what I realized was that my my number 10 my my top 10 person hundred percent 10 was my wife and what I'd been doing is I've been neglecting her as a 10
Mike Pagan: Yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: In her life for 2030 years it was only that realization that I had everything I needed in in my support network sitting next to me None by None that made me realize that I actually didn't need to see gratification from the world I had it and I think. That was the epiphany that we both had if you like that we became soulmates greater than we'd ever been? Yeah, yeah.
Mike Pagan: Yeah, it's it's knowing who your rock is absolutely the strength but just just to add to that one on on family because I know in in my world. My sister would score me a 12 out of None um, as as far as in in her support network. Ah, but for me, she would score a None and that so it doesn't have to be symbiotic here. It's it's down to what is right for what you need going forward and the relationships there and that sort of we can go into all sorts of rigged moraloles as to wise and whatever else I mean I love a dearly as my sister.
Joanne Lockwood: No, no, no.
Mike Pagan: But I don't seek her counsel and and and and working that way through but she does mine and it's it's understanding how that works because because a lot lot of this ah learning for me came from I was working with professional and elite sportsmen and women transitioning to their careers after sport.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Mike Pagan: And um, we were asking a lot of the questions and understanding through to support networks and everything else that we're putting together and the reality check for these guys were they had None people keeping them on the pitch in the pool on the track or whatever yesterday. And the guillotine comes down today and all of those people are not fit for purpose for their way. Forward. Um, and and they're gone. So now the what? what is what is their raison detre who are they? what's their purpose. They want a portfolio career. All of these things are going on and challenging and that just that switch of. What we've got yesterday to now they have to proactively build that new team that's going to build with them over the next three 5 1015 years and and ah when I realized that this transition space happens for all of us I mean clearly you've you've gone through your. Huge transition in the last 5 or 6 years but in the same way as one of my daughters starting off at university went through that transition from school girl to student and then going so we are transitioning at multiple points throughout our lives and and and as we transition. We need the next version of certain friendships of certain professional relationships and it's and it's letting the the ones drift that need to drift and and then proactively and intentionally recruiting other people into that network going forward so that we can make braver decisions. Have more fun along the way because remember this all comes back to do what you love and love what you're doing if if you've got the people around you that are not so much praising and stroking you because that just makes you sound needy but that they're helping they're motivating their uncovering. Um your your strengths that you can go further with. Then as a result of that we achieve more and we have more fun along the way.
Joanne Lockwood: So yeah, ah, I mean we were chatting me before I press the record button around benefits from being being a member of and an association or master divine group or other other things and and this is exactly what you're talk about here. it's it's filling your you so sevens and eights or you six and sevens of people who around you not necessarily your none but having a a good solid crew of people who are there for you will listen to you can advise you nurture you and maybe some of them will not grade themselves that be can to become a None but.
Mike Pagan: So get that.
Joanne Lockwood: I Think well with having a whole group of people in that sort of ready to elevate position that'll step in when you need them and I think if you're not careful what you does you shut yourself off and you.
Mike Pagan: Um, well luck I I know I know I've got people sorry I know I've got people that are six s and sevens that I'd love to be higher up the with the pecking order but they're not committed to me. so so I've got None None options there one is I can. Put in loads and loads of effort of trying to make them love me more than I I appear needy and wanting or I can flip it the other way and say okay well that I'm not fit for purpose I'm not what that's looking or it's not there. It's not on their raison d detre they're like fine this. There's a none reasons and my choice is to either. Um, get weighed down by that or to move forward and and and we can't include everybody on this journey with my my late mother in law always said that if you can count your best friends on more than None hand, you're kidding yourself that's and that was her simple reality. Yeah yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I yeah I can cur I cancur I'd rather have 3 or 4 that all the way I would describe it is if I was standing upright and I fell backwards who would be there to catch me without even without without question.
Mike Pagan: Totally.
Joanne Lockwood: Though, who's got my back ultimately that that there's the kind of people and there's 3 or 4 if that and it's but those 3 or 4 are there and you know they're there. You don't you don't have to look over your shoulder when you're falling. You know they're going to be there for you.
Mike Pagan: Um, yeah, and.
Mike Pagan: Well a story I give you there of people having your back and it's ah ah, last year but my one of my son's friends fortunately was unsuccessful in a a suicide attempt? Um, and the morning afterwards I had a phone call. It's around about Eleven o'clock in the morning and it was from one of my best friends who lives in America and he's the the head of an a and e out there and he just rang out of the blue. We talked None or 3 times a year and I said Boc before we start, why have you run and it was sort of somewhat just ring for chat? No no, why have you rung me now. Ah, this particular moment in time for what reason have you picked up the phone and decided I need to ring mikey and have a catch up and and we we just went ranre circles for about 5 minutes and we couldn't come up with a reason apart from gutfield told him to pick up the phone. He was ringing at halfpast five in the morning us time on his way home from a night shift and for whatever reason I came into his mind's eye and he rang me on the way back I was able to talk to him about what this particular young man had taken what he'd been doing and get the whole. Medical insight into what was going on with this situation that happened and overnight and as a result of that I was then able to go back to the parents of this young lad and give them a different perspective that they weren't getting from the people they were talking to. Um, and the insights were so helpful and so real and everything else and it's and it's that whole point of you you talk there about sort of when when you fall your best ease catch you? Well ah I had this this is thousands of miles apart intuitively he picked up the phone and rang me. And as a result it just it. It helped so many people and including that it it helped hurt my son as well because clearly he had many challenges of survivor guilt and all sorts of other things attached to that as to what was going on. Could he have said something was it his for all of these things which ah the the young man's peer group all went through. Ah, but that's that's where the power comes in when you've got the right people that you invest in and you and you support with then you don't have to ask it happens.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I mean male suicides. Yeah, all time high. We talked about Suicide earlier are men good at asking for help is that is that part of the problem too much pride.
Mike Pagan: Um, human beings are no good at asking for help. Um clearly clearly yes I know the the male rate is higher than the female rate. But the the reality is asking for help is still perceived as a sign of weakness. Um, and it isn't not knowing the answers. Being being afraid of being seen good old imposter syndromes I'm not good enough everything else but that you you talked about the drains I've I for years have used the terminology mood hoovers. But as many people have and these are but that little voice in your head that sort of just keeps on going at you and sort of. Tells you you know good, not worthy all the canttras and stuff like other when you've got the positive people around you that you have intentionally selected then they will work with you and they will lift you and throughout your life. Those people do need a refresh because they're not always going to be there but you've got you. Ah, people that what's it reason season or life. You got this so certain people are there for a reason. Yeah because you've I know you've had a health issue so that they're a doctor or they're associated with that. There's a season so the school years the the sporting years the association years. Whatever it is. But then you got the lifers and those are the ones that you haven't seen them for six months twelve months two years through through covid you haven't managed to catch up but then you meet up again and it's like you were in the same room yesterday and away you go again and and and that's just friendship. So. When when it comes to our professional support network. The mental wealth team. Yeah, it's that there are people in there that yeah, they especially in the professional sector that ask far more potent questions than you will because in the professional sector so accountants and solicitors and wealth management. Ah, that they're devoid of that emotional connection to the thing that you're trying to create and they will turn around and and cut through the the nonsense you've been sold I mean for for me in the noughties I did quite a lot of property investing. Um, some that went well and some that went spect accurateularly li lily lilyly wrong um and had I spent a few hundred on independent legal advice I would have saved myself None figures and some. Of costs over None ears but I do now have a property in cyprus that's worth a quarter of what I paid for it None years after I put the original deposit down the list I yes, I'm one of those muppets. Um, no, it's not i.
Mike Pagan: If I looked at the brochure again now I would still look at it said there that's quite good the way it's set up but the reality behind it was so not there and that a proap professional team that I didn't have in those days would have asked me better questions would have pulled the thing apart and would have come out with that beautiful phrase. Run forest run and I would have because that's the point you pay for independent and advice. So that you you learn it you you learn from them because you don't want to read the None pages or the 447 pages of small print that are all written in their favor. Not yours and when it all goes wrong which it does. Um, you you get royally messed up.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I've I've been through the business school of life I've made some Wow learning I've had some significant learning exercises in my life I've I've ah companies go bust on me ah owe me over under a K I've made. Tax planning decisions that went badly wrong. And yeah, so I've i've've I've got a whole portfolio of life skills that I've I've I've acquired through through trying things and looking back on it. Yeah I suppose some of it comes down to what you're just saying having the right advisor having the right support network would have.
Mike Pagan: This.
Joanne Lockwood: Potentially how headed those things off but then you can't you can't wish and and want it just is and yeah I'll probably make similar mistakes again but open and never the same ones.
Mike Pagan: Yes.
Mike Pagan: Um, but but if you've got the right people around you that you're asking questions of so a classic example recently with with my wealth manager who's a who has become a personal friend as well and or knows a friend none and then then working with but long story short. Um, I'm I'm north of 21? Um, and so because I have to say that because it's a podcast see and they can't see how youthful I am not um, but it's the question of critical health cover and life cover came up and. I don't and I was investigating critical health and so and I said okay can you can you look into this for me that to which he did and a few days later came back with 3 suggestions. Um, and to which I then responded with oh and what about this other one that that I've I've I've been talking to because they've been chatting to. And he came back to me with this simple message saying I know this person who says trust your professional network because they know more than you do and they do the research and they come up with advice. That's right for you because they know you and they respect you and they understand your nuances and how it works. The company you're referring to there was not on my list because it's not in my top 3 whose advice. Are you going to take if so it was very tongue-incheat totally barbed. Um, but it was just the reality check if you're paying for that support and advice. Why are you second-guessing it and trying to come up with other stuff. Take the advice go with it because that's what you're doing and obviously if you trust and respects and it works then that advice 99 times out of a hundred will come out right? That's the point take the advice go with it so I did. And got back in my box and I shut up.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, um, and I think that that's key when we're working with our teams. Our staff our support networks if you try and micromanage everyone or question everybody. Why do you employ people if you don't trust them? Yeah at the end of the day.
Mike Pagan: Step.
Joanne Lockwood: I Often say to people when they're saying what do you think of this I say I'm going to go with you? Yeah, you've you suggested that I've got a couple of tweaks but fundamentally I'm not here to argue with you my opinion just my opinion you I Trust you let's go with you. Let's go with your plan a if plan your plan name doesn't work.
Mike Pagan: My.
Joanne Lockwood: Let's tweak it later but think in order to empower people and give people that sense of belonging within your Organization. You have to you have to have to let them be creative and let them come up with the ideas. Otherwise what's the point of being a leader what you end up doing is is making all the decisions and that's not the role of the leader. But a leader is to empower people to drive it forward and you're just there to set direction strategy.
Mike Pagan: Absolutely And and that that links directly into that whole world of self-care which is one of those priority parts of ah where I focus on this mental well team when we when we hone in on our self-care then there's a lot of things that we can do that Ah will it.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Mike Pagan: Improve that some of which we can take control of and responsibility and make happen but a lot of the time we don't again, we don't have all the answers so we need to bring in experts whether it be nutrition and alcohol and drugs and whatever. But also in what we're doing in in other areas like meditation and mindfulness and all these okay. It's it's not woo-wooo nowadays because people realize it does work but ah for me I've always said I can't do meditation and mindfulness because I can't sit still for long enough or I fall asleep which but then um, over the years as as mentioned yeah and in the introduction I'm I'm a swimmer. Um i. several years ago with the team of others we were the fastest men's full relay team to swim the english channel in 2015 so so so some crazy stupid stuff and I did a relay not a solo so I'm mad not what I can never quite work out which way but in that process though I realized that I was. Actively or consistently taking on what I refer to as active mindfulness. So when you're doing endurance activities or repetitive activities where stroke after stroke steppo after step rotation on a bike or whatever it is. You're doing this long term. Cumulative activity when we then tune out through that process. So when I get out of a river a lake or out of the sea after having a swim. My brain is sharp. It's it's fresh I've had these so little messages popping in whilst you're swimming along and and because you cause you're getting into good old flow state. Ah, you're getting into different environments but and and that works for me and so it's it's things like that that help me achieve stuff because as a result of my activities but it's but you have to do that in a way that works for you I've I've always jokingly referred to myself as number 6 in my family. That's wife 3 kids and a dog and over Christmas time we had 8 puppies as well. So I was number None um, but ah, the the reality check is I have to be number one so that I'm fit for purpose to look after those guys or to help or to support because that they're young adults now. So. It's not a question of ah. Ah, potty time or anything ugly like that which we can all just about remember when that happened but that reality of okay so if I'm going to be fit for purpose for them then I've got to be in my mind's eye or my way of working mentally and physically healthy through what I do and how I work that means doing my swiming. So I'll get up on a Sunday morning and go and do early morning swims which to some people to to old mikey going back years ago would have been no, why would you do that because you got to go out and party and really have too many drinks on this Saturday night and everything I ah believed me swimming in a lake.
Mike Pagan: Burping up riocka or Maalbeck is not nice. So it's it's so things like that way you're looking after self-care by default I'm drinking less which therefore means default you're you're getting healthier which means you're returning home at nine thirty on a Sunday morning with fresh bread from wherever. And suddenly the family will love you as well because you didn't disturb any of them and you brought them fresh bread and they're smiling result.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, yeah I can relate to the burping up riok or melbe on ah on a Sunday morning maybe not swimming. But yeah, certainly I remember those ah cloudy head days that i' I'm actually pleased I I stopp drinking and thirty four days ago I've got an app that tells me that um, ah.
Mike Pagan: Yeah, just keep you let on another day gone. Um.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, and I realized that it's created more space in my head to think about stuff I'm not I'm not spending half my life recovering from a hangover or trying to create one. It's ah ah, it's a different reality and I spending more time as you say doing this repetitive fitness stuff. Follow treadmire on a.
Mike Pagan: All.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, elliptical cross-trainer type of thing or bike or even walking up the hill I was I started doing again and um I remember I wrote an entire blog article while I was swimming fifteen hundred meters so I was just doing it and in my head I wrote the blog article out the pool sat in the cafe on my phone and just.
Mike Pagan: Yes.
Mike Pagan: Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: The blog article I'd written while I was swimming straight on into into the machine and I find I do that a lot I I'm not 1 to have the radio on a noise in the background because for me I just want that nothingness around me and if I'm concentrated and saying it's great if I stop working.
Mike Pagan: Yeah, okay.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm now drifting off into this other world of quiet where I could start self-healing with thinking wandering and my wife often come over to me and she said what are you thinking about nothing. She's been. What do mean you said about nothing I was just my mind was clear. And I was waiting for something to happen in there and just to arrive as a thaw but till it did I was happy just not thinking about anything in particular.
Mike Pagan: I Think my response there would have been nothing to report or empty head. Both are great.
Joanne Lockwood: Um, and it's I think one of the things I've learned over the last five or six years is the piece you can have in your head when you let when you when you've got no baggage. no no secrets No no agendas no nothing you you really have 1 voice which I I found is incredibly and.
Mike Pagan: Please having your names. What.
Joanne Lockwood: Incredibly empowering to have this one thought or or an absence of any noise to allow you to just clear things and that's for me that that was an epiphany if you like to get to that point.
Mike Pagan: Um, it's it Well having having the surname of Pagan It wouldn't surprise you that I'm not a practicing religious person. But ah if if I was to follow a religion. The only one I would consider would be buddhism and the one I enjoy in there is that that whole zen space.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Mike Pagan: And for for me that definition of success of not looking over your shoulder. Um for something that you've missed or what if or just because you're content in the moment. Um, and and that only happens when you allow yourself the time. Um, and we're talking about alcohol. I did some research left a few years ago I gave up alcohol for about four months and it was just a personal journey like you're doing at the moment so a reflection of why was the dependency or was it just habitual how much you're consuming. How does it work. Are you a selfish dad because you don't want to drive it. Two o'clock in the morning to pick up one of your beautiful young daughters from the middle of coventry are having stumbled out of a nightclub or they should be getting into an uber you think? Yeah, so but but that's interfering with my drinking. How could they possibly want me to do that and it's areas like that like. I did the research and I worked out conservatively I would donate 15 hours a week to the god of alcohol. So that's for cumulatively throughout the week I mean that could be higher. It could be lower and um for anybody listening to this that isn't a drinker that let's let's ah. Take the word alcohol out then replace it with Tiktok videos replace it with box sets replace it with Netflix replace it with all these things that hemorrhage and use up your time energy and effort. So 15 hours a week if the average working day is none that's None working days a week you're donating to the god of alcohol and that's excluding hangovers and that's a hundred days a year. So a hundred days a year. You're donating to the god of alcohol. Um, and ah so I'm not saying here. Everybody has to give up alcohol I have to give up ticktok or whatever it is. It's just the reality check that if you want a guilt free. Fortnight's holiday you only have to reduce your those addictions by 10% because that will get you None working days back which is the amount of time two weeks on holiday would be now I've realized certain people turn out I do a 900 hour week because I'm sort of committed to the cause. Well. That we need to have a different conversation with you about different things but it's that reality of where we are hemorrhaging time energy and effort because we don't have any time but then weve we've got a coach who's turning around seeing these ill-sering habits and saying ah what what you doing? where's where's that going where's all that effort happening. Reality check turns around and says okay I'm I'm I'm I'm my own worst enemy here I need somebody holding me true to what I say I should be doing and as a result of that I will step up and achieve more changes our game.
Joanne Lockwood: I love it. Love it. I was as youre as you're talking I was just reflecting on something that happened yesterday I had a bit of a quiet start I went to the nail bar I had my nails done like I like to do on a Monday morning. It's a good start to the week just again, None thing. A good thing about going to a nail bar if you've ever never been with to one mike. Is that you can't do much with your hands because someone has got control of them so you can't play with your phone but my now technician tends to have very kind of elevator type music on the about a very soft, very acoustic type remixes. It's very very calming and I find that that 2 hours
Mike Pagan: That.
Mike Pagan: I would fall asleep.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, that there's 2 hours of having my nows done is a great time to just have a conversation with someone just chill out do nothing and she did my eyebrows afterwards and again I find having many eyebrows wax to equally quite kind of therapeutic just again, you can't do anything you' just gotta lie there and enjoy it and I came back from that I just I've a texts. Set more wife for text and do you fancy just nipping to the down to the seafront. Well grab ah grab a salad from the the cafe down there and we're go just go park up with a roof down on the car and just chill out by the water for an hour and have our lunch to it. Yeah and we did that we came back and I just felt so energized and. By shifting my entire work life balance and and my wifes now she works with me. It allows us to have these freedom moments where we say I've got 2 hours in my schedule. Let's do something different with it. Lets just enjoy that rather than having a having having having to have a two week holiday I can have a 2 hour mini break and just.
Mike Pagan: Well the the next 4 hours that you were back in the office you achieved more in those 4 hours and you probably would have if you'd been there all day.
Joanne Lockwood: Enjoy the life. Oh yeah yeah, I actually said to my wife last night I said oh wish I didn't take this to hours. So after the die because the next 4 hours got really hectic. But then those nick four hours they were they were instantly productive because I had the focus to do them. Yeah.
Mike Pagan: This this this all feeds into but the none book I wrote was called faff which is sort of the um, the the subtitle was the false art of feeling fulfilled and it was all to do with faffing about and the the self sabotage habits and challenges we have and how. We can change it and but it's it's also recognizing where we hemorrhage it and it's it's just that reality of of knowing I can make that I'm in control here I have a choice um and and it's knowing where we work best as well. I mean there are people listening to this who are probably part of that None a m club. 20 minutes meditation 20 minutes planning and 20 minutes exercise ah now I haven't got a problem with getting up early but then there's early. So if it's got a None at the front of it I'd better be going on ah to an airport to go somewhere nice I don't it's not a daily chip choice. But I'm still up early now. There's other people who. Categorically are not positive and good morning people. But they're night hourss and they they absolutely crunch it. Well if that's what works then go for it. We don't have to be in this world. We're in nowadays going through years of lockdowns and understanding that. So. Judge me on my performance. The fact that I happen to be working different hours to you doesn't mean to say I'm not working and it's getting that balance of what we do that works for us in the times that are fit for us.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm I'm change him unashamedly a a nine o'clock in the morning get out of bed person unless a client has booked to nine o'clock meeting with me in which case um I'll get up at ten tonight no half 8 full of past eight. Ah yeah, um.
Mike Pagan: That 5 2 yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: But I've I've learned over the years that the more time I have the more I pad it out with stuff that is maybe procrastination or or not focused. So if I if I squeeze my day from 9 till four o'clock or something and have a break in lunchtime. So I've got probably 4 or five good hours.
Mike Pagan: Um, yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I get 4 or five good hours I don't need to spend 10 hours I need to get up a five o'clock this is this is the way I work now I I know that if I constrain my time I get more done because otherwise I'll just fill I'll fill the time I've got I don't become any more productive. It's like deadlines I'll do I do the thing I have to do to hit the deadline. Not.
Mike Pagan: Yes, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Not in advance the deadline that's made my brain work. So.
Mike Pagan: Um, but but people won't achieve that though unless either they are able to be self-reflective to that level to understand that they are. They are the problem. Um, or they employ somebody else.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah.
Mike Pagan: To actually be honest and brutal and supportive with them to ask those questions and challenge and and that's why it's so important and as ah, ah as you go through sort of the building. Ah a team around you then we we get to the point whether they're coming from a mastermind group or they're coming from a self-appointed. Ah, self-care or others. We get the the better questions asked by these people who are sitting there outside of our mind's eye and ah they are with respect with support with love with challenge um getting us to do more that. Then we can on our own. Um, and that's that's the the key part of it and sort of I sort of splutting through that slightly because I I know for well that from my perspective when I've got people around me and some asking me better putting me on the spot and then I step up. As everybody does. But if we've got too much time available then we fill it and that's where things like good old social media and whenever else. It's not bad. Social media by any means but we we need to know? Um, ah years ago there was a thing called rescue time which was an app that people could put on their phones and. Computers and there's there's a none different ones nowadays but they're they're all there and you just don't want to see at the end of the week the number of hours that's attached because it's a really wow that's scary. And you wonder why? the next generations coming through are struggling with fomo and all the other challenges attached to that because they're just getting caught up in that incessant need for likes and touch points and everything else versus actually what what does a realistic um, achievement look like. And if I've got that right? then I've got people around me that are holding me accountable for the things I say I'm going to do and the next time I meet up with them I will have done that because if I haven't done it then I'm going to look like a ah muppet in front of them and which is disrespectful to them and um and my time and their time. So I step up and that's why we need these people these parties to challenge us provokers and just include us in everything that's going on but also stretch and and as a reason of being stretched that makes us braver we can braver we have more fun underway is the theory.
Joanne Lockwood: I Could yeah I completely I've I'm bought into it I've bought into everything you're saying how do you nudge people into an orbit where they become self-aware.
Mike Pagan: And it's it and it works in practice.
Joanne Lockwood: That that surely that's the biggest barrier to people having great mental wealth doing the things that you're talking about is is finding that need to change or recognizing having that epiphany go if I keep doing what I'm doing I'm gonna get same results and it's not what I want sometimes you how do you nudge them into that orbit we say I get it now like you've just done with me. Yeah.
Mike Pagan: Um, that there are there are certain environments where it's ah it we have that lifeanging diagnosis that means that the smoker decides to give up smoking and or somebody in the family. Ah, becomes critically ill or passes away because of something and you're doing the same thing. So oh really, it's in my Dna I'd better stop. Ah that those are those are the the epiphany moments that are out of our control. They come in and we take steps and we change things. The reality check around that is knowing what you do on a cumulative basis that's going to help you go forward. So a classic example I give you for me is is my father was a short little fat guy and I don't mean that disrespectfully that's that's who he was so it's in my Dna to be the same way as he was. And at the age of about None I made a pact with my best mate that we would never go the way of our fathers. My father was a short little fat guy. His father was huge in comparison and it was just that. Wheezing when they got to the top of the stairs because there was no fitness and there was no quality that their health and nutrition and alcohol and everything else was was that was there and it was in my Dna um, and so that that was a light bulb moment for me. At that point I know I was young for it. But I've also been very sporty so that was part of so it was It's knowing those light bulb moments and seizing them. Um, and it's of rather than ignoring them so continuing the story of my father in the late 1950 s and early nineteen sixty s as a bachelor in Singapore he he partied hard shall we say and had a lot of fun involved in the cricket club out there. His best mate moved to Bangkok um and set up a container ship business from Bangkok my father moved back to the Uk in. 64 something like that 65 met my mother eight weeks later they were engaged my sister and I came along and in 9099 my father sent his friend a Christmas card saying Mike is moving to Australia just letting you know this chap picked up the phone and rang my father. Um, ah I know this this sounds rambly but just just bear with me on this and um as it. You should tell Mike when he gets to Australia to meet up with my friend Newton we did some land deals in the 1970 s he's a top bloke if he can help mike in any way I'm sure he will there. You go.
Mike Pagan: So I turned up in Australia wife baby rucksack no car. No job. No house I spent a little bit of time getting to know my wife and daughter because I'd been in the corporate world. So we we know what that means? Ah, as far as working hours and so I then turned up at Newton's door he was in this palatial house in the middle of the smartest area of Perth aren't answer the door this little old guy came to the door and said hi on'm newton come on inmate I'm feeling a bit crooked today. Just had my none dose of chemo but in you camp let's have a chat and see what we can do. Long story short. He was considering investing in http://anew.com business that was about to go live that had no commercial skills with the directors that were running it. They had great ideas but no commerciality. So I got plugged into that so he didn't invest in them I got plugged in and I took Golden Handcuffs and a pocket money salary. Because it was a startup dot com business I moved back to the Uk 3 years later as a result of that I then set up my business which has evolved to what it is now twenty years on which is also to do with performance coaching support and the the world of mental wealth as we've been discussing three months after I met Newton. He was dead so I had the narrowest of windows to make the contact with this person and I could have easily missed it if I'd gone six weeks later he might have been too poorly to take the court I do not know, um, ah but that narrowest of windows that connection going back. Thirty odd years none prior to that where my father was a partying and so that guy changed my life. He doesn't know it. He has no idea about it but the power of that network and seizing these little opportunities that come along many of them turn into nothing but as a result of a Christmas card. You should tell your lad might to hook up with my mate Newton we did some land grabs in the 1970 s and that categorically changed it so that comes back to your original question there about how how do we get somebody to step up. How do we challenge if they're not looking for it. The opportunities are around us. We just have to have sometimes we need them pointed out and then if they pointed out we then need to be held accountable by an external party that we respect and we will do as we say to and then as a result of that that network can generate all sorts that can as I say. Change your life forever.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I concur and I suppose I've I've been through several evolutions of my life. A couple of at least a couple of evolutions of my life one with my gender my career change and I think this time round I was more aware. Of those butterfly moments. You know that flapping of the wing is altering your trajectory. So as you say that contact that person like I can trace back almost to the person this person put me in contact with somebody put me in contact with somebody that one conversation. Put me where I'm sat today without that person. The trajectory would have been completely different I'm not saying it'd been worse or better or anything I just know that that that sliding door has put me here in this seat today because I met None person for coffee in a cafe in Richmond and who said just tell me how I can help you.
Mike Pagan: Um, yeah.
Mike Pagan: Ah, flighting girls.
Joanne Lockwood: So the person who introduced me to that person created opportunity that I could never foreseen I had to do something with the opportunity I had to make it happen. They didn't give me anything. They just said how can I help by asked and so yeah, it's it's incredible. It's being I guess I guess.
Mike Pagan: Good.
Joanne Lockwood: Key message really is to be open and aware when those situations occur and be open enough to be receptive when someone says to you have a chat or let's have a talk and be curious. Be be that growth. Mindset isn't up.
Mike Pagan: Yes, could constantly curious. It's actually a newsletter I've written recently. Yeah that whole thing if we're constantly curious and we can actually sort of unlock other opportunities and you you never know what's coming and this is all to do with choices not making a decision is a choice to accept the status quo.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Mike Pagan: So making a choice to do something differently is is a choice not making a decision is a choice we have those choices and we make them the whole time and ah quite often when it goes wrong or we got a negative mindset where everything else we we blame situations on everything else outside but actually summer ah not always.
Joanne Lockwood: And so.
Mike Pagan: But a lot of the time. It's ah it's the a choice that we've made or a choice that we to make to not make a decision that has then evolved into the circumstances that we're now in.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I've talked about some theled day and I've been on a previous podcast I talked about green man navigation when I was in l a or 25 thirty years ago we didn't know where we were going to go for lunch. We just thought but were indecisive. So I said well look. But get to a cross crosswalk. Um, and we just go whichever whichever wear' got the green man we're going to go across the road there next next time we get to a intersection. We're going to go green man green man green man never turning on never going on a red man and we just found ourselves snaking through downtown all a until we went. Oh. There's a restaurant. Do here. We go. We went in and had certain way. It was absolute good. Dive. It was called um lotter burger. It was greasy. It was horrible. It was it was say disgusting but I remember that afternoon where where we're out of indecision came a plan and that plan led us to somewhere. Okay.
Mike Pagan: Um, ah.
Joanne Lockwood: Um, not saying It's the perfect outcome but we had an outcome and we we always talk about this green man navigation just take the opportunities of the come see where it takes you and be brave enough.
Mike Pagan: It's yeah and it's generated a story for you there that you reflect on it and there's ah somebody in one of my mastermind groups used to be quite a good runner back in the day across country and so on and and did well into his twenty s but then stopped running entirely and then through lockdowns. Started running again. Um, and ah one of the things he actually started to do was so instead of having a running route and just being very diligent. Whatever else he would just run and he could be out for 40 minutes he could be out for 2 hours 40 minutes depending on what it was I'm going to turn right at that tree I've no idea where it will take me and this was all. Cross-country fell all over the place in theory looping back to where he lived but it was just opened his eyes to ah the whole love of that sport again which he'd totally left behind and was no longer enjoying and I think that's part of this this control freakery that we always have. And the choices we do and do not make um when we have people around us helping us make those decisions and helping us make those choices better then then then it works because the the issue of isolation is it I believe it kills creativity and prevents decision making so when we. Deal with isolation by building support teams this mental wealth team our our network around us then we are able to make those decisions and even when things go wrong as they still will go wrong. We can bounce back more effectively because we've got good people around us that help us and give us a hand up at when we need it.
Joanne Lockwood: And and on that note wow it's been a fantastic hour I can't believe we've been wrappingtting on and hopefully you the listen have enjoyed it as well. We we've be talking now for my best part of an hour including the green room chat beforehand so Mike amazing I love the concept of mental wealth. You've you've. You've opened up things in my mind that I I probably had locked away hadn't thought about but you given some context so how could be people how could people get in contact with you. It's the best way.
Mike Pagan: Simplest way I'll give you I'll give you None mediums. Ah None is straight through the website Mike Pagan Dot Com so that's good old religious surname mike pagan dot com or the other one is if find me on Linkedin. And if you do look me up on Linkedin. Please say where you've've you've heard and connected from because that way I'll know the conversation and everything else and um I can really hook into you. Ah, but yeah, but those are the None areas I work on and and go back to that whole thing of where we spend time energy and effort on the things that matter. I I don't do loads of other social media because I don't want to do them badly and I would so I focus and stick to a couple of key areas. Ah because that way they're done consistently and they're done well and people can come have conversations and we can talk about books we can talk about everything else. That's out there. But it's it's that. Set up the conversation in the none place through the right mediums.
Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. And do you want to? finally talk about your monthly challenge booklet.
Mike Pagan: Oh yes, yes, um, so I always like to sort of finish these interview discussions with a couple of things. So so ah, firstly, ah on a monthly basis. There are different things that we can do um and and I've done this for years in my sports and so. Um, and I realized that sports activities isn't for everybody so I'm not here to preach as somebody that you've all going to go out and buy a leotard and start doing fitness stuff. Um, however, there are different activities. We can do and it's it's part of that cumulative effect. And so there's a booklet I have that if you drop me a message across I can send that through to you directly? Ah, but in there, it' just talking about different challenges will work and some will feel slightly more extreme than others depending on where you are on that focus but but on a month- by month basis by cumulatively doing more activities. This is going to strengthen our self-care and as we look after ourselves better then we become stronger and fitter and wiser and and more capable if we're not investing in our personal development. You're listening to this podcast you are clearly investing and serious about your development and how you can work further so this is where it comes through. So. It's it's a simple little booklet I'll send across and the and the the final call to action I would say as well is if you recall that story I said about my friend ringing from America at the right time at the right place at the right hour. My challenge goes out to allley view. If your gut feel is saying that I need to talk to somebody or I haven't spoken to somebody for a period of time do not tweet them. Do not text them do not stroke them or like anything they've said pick up the phone and ring them if you live close enough go around and see them. You do not know what is going on inside somebody else's world or inside their minor inside their situations at the moment that phone call could be a breath of fresh air out of the blue which is just the tonic we need. We can achieve so much more if we got good people around us doing good things more of the time and there are some very very good people out there. But it's our job as good humans to just pick up the phone reach out and be that little bit of special for somebody else. You do not know what you might be uncovering and helping and they know that their loved liked and supported which can open up all sorts of doors for them so please. Pick up the phone have a chat.
Joanne Lockwood: Thanks! Thank you Mike Amazing and a huge thank you to you? The listener for tuning in getting this far really appreciate it please making make content Mike you'd love to hear from you also keep to subscribe to keep updates on future episodes of the inclusion Bites podcast b I t yes. Tell your friends Stanley colleagues I've got some amazing content on this on this on this pod so please please share the love with other people I've also got number other exciting guests. Ah, can you believe I've got more exciting guests lined up that I'm sure we'd be equally inspired by over the next few weeks and months and of course if you're and a potentially inspiring guest and you'd like to be on the show. I'd love to have a conversation and get you on and and as always if you've got any comments or suggestions to how I can improve then please do email me to Jo Dot Lockwood Cch chap dot code at Uk and finally my name is Joanne Lockwood it's been an absolute pleasure to hoses podcast for you today. Catch you next time bye