Joanne Lockwood: Hello everyone my name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the inclusion Bites podcast in this series I have interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation about the subject of inclusion belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. To join me in the future then please do drop me a line to Jo Dot Lockwood Hasd change happen dot code uk has s stuly change happen dot code it uk you can catch up with all of the previous shows on Itunes Spotify and the usual places so plug any your headphones grab adf. And let's get going today is episode 66 with a title staying positive in a world full of negativity and I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Caroline Cavanaugh Caroline describes herself as an anxiety specialist and professional speaker. But I asked Caroline to describe her superpower. She said that she's been described as a philosopheraptor how whilst not intended in the nicest of ways she'd like to think she still has the tenacity and focus but a much cuddly away hello Caroline and welcome to the show.
Caroline Cavanagh: Thank you so much John it's lovely to be here and we've had a couple of attempts at this. So it's lovely that we're now live and I'm really looking forward to having a chat and seeing where we go with this.
Joanne Lockwood: So likewise I'm really excited to hear what you have to say to Caroline staying positive in a world full of negativity. That's not easy. Is it sometimes.
Caroline Cavanagh: Oh it's my immediate answer to that is it's as easy or as difficult as you want to make it I love in a lot of the work that I do I love making it very practical. So the best way if you'll join in with me to kind of bring this alive if if I was to say right? I'm going to count to None look around where you are at the moment and count how many blue things there are yeah None None 3 4 5 yeah there's some blue things around you. How many green things did you see and often when people do that. It's kind of I used to do this a lot um going into schools I used to run assemblies and the kids would go oh miss you only told us to look for blue things and then you kind of see the pennies start to drop. The the green things were always there but you see what you focus on and we are surrounded through social media through the news especially in negativity. But there's equally a lot of positive things as well and so a lot of the work that I do is really. Helping people to see the green things in the world rather than focusing on the blue.
Joanne Lockwood: It. That's so true. What you're just saying there as you're talking is we buy a new car then every car we on the road is one like ours isn't it. We suddenly we start latching on this this brain picks up on the things. It's focused on and there's I if you see that remember that is a video where.
Caroline Cavanagh: Absolutely yeah, yep, um.
Joanne Lockwood: People are playing base basketball and playing the basketball to each other and in the middle of the video a gorilla walks on the screen waves everybody and walks off again, but all you instructed to count the number of passes in the basketball. So you just don't see the gorilla and when you brought your back again and go.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah, yeah, and now.
Joanne Lockwood: How did I ever miss that guerrilla walking through that that people playing basketball and you're so right we we're so focusing on in the moment the news What we've been bombarded with. We don't stop to see the other things in life doing that I think that's very true What you just said.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah, yeah, and so a lot of the work that I do. It's all around anxiety so negativity naturally will often lead people to worry about things. Yeah worry is another word for anxiety and actually anxiety is a socially acceptable word for fear. We don't tend to use the word fear very much because it's a 4 lettered F Word and a bit like the other one. It's kind of socially unacceptable. So we've changed it for anxiety. So what we focus on can give us particular feelings. And so a lot of the things that um cause anxiety is purely a relationship of what we are focusing on so I talk a lot in in metaphors it it sometimes drives people mad but it helps to clarify things I think it's like putting a different lens on your camera. You know if you have a great big you know telephoto lens you see things in a lot of detail but you miss the bigger picture whereas if you put a different lens that goes down to a very you know short focus then you'll see you might be looking exactly the same thing but it looks very very different. You know, put a landscape lens on your camera. You'll see a big picture wide but you lose some of the detail. Um, but in each of those you will get a feeling based on what you're looking at. So if you want to change anxiety a lot of the things at the time is about helping you to refocus on other things to give you a different feeling. None of my big premises is anxiety is not a bad thing. You know the role of fear is to keep us alive if we didn't have fear, you'd walk out in front of it in the road without checking for cars. You'd put your hand on something hot fear's role is to keep us alive to keep us safe. So it's not a bad thing. It purely becomes an issue for people when it becomes overly dominant does that make sense.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's the same route as biases that they're not all bad that keeps alive so biases and fair anxiety fight or flight this is part of our brain here that reacts keeps us alert. The.
Caroline Cavanagh: Um, it's a survival instinct. Yeah, and it's a survival instinct.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, um, there's ah, there's a great saying I love in it. It's everything you've ever desired is on the other side of fear is fear is always holding us back. It's the thing that stops us living our life freely if you like it's the anxiety. It's all those challenges. So.
Caroline Cavanagh: You.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah I'd I'd reframe that a little bit in I'd say what we what we stay within is our comfort zone and comfort zone doesn't necessarily mean it's comfortable. What comfort zone actually means is you understand how it works so therefore by definition. What.
Joanne Lockwood: We've lifted a world for last.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Joanne Lockwood: Um.
Caroline Cavanagh: Outside of the comfort zone is you don't understand how it Works. It's uncomfortable and to get from comfort to discomfort. That's where fear is the border because by stepping into something that you don't know that's where fear actually is a positive thing because fear's role is to actually. Improve your performance so that the real high feelings of fear adrenaline. The the butterflies in the tummy The heart rate the the Sweaty Palms That's actually all a physiological response to make you perform better. So when we're so actually stepping out of the comfort zone into uncomfortable actually being in a physiological and mental state that allows you to perform at a higher level is a good thing but people often misinterpret that and go oh I can't do that. It's too scary or take a smaller step.
Joanne Lockwood: I.
Joanne Lockwood: I've I've learned that I mean you're a professional speaker as well. I'm a professional speaker just before I I step onto a stage in front of a room full of people. My heart rate is going. My stomach is churning.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: My brain is telling me I can't do this. My brain is telling me I'm going to mess up my brain is saying run away now and I've almost said to a lot of people if if someone came up to me 30 seconds before I run on the stage said Jo your thoughtsts cancel. Don't worry you you don't have to do it. My pencil was saying I would I'd say. Thank you I'm off by.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And so and it's not until I step on that stage and I'm sure you have the same sort of emotions and say the None word and then suddenly all of that fear or that anxiety just fades away and you're there doing your job you you then relax into it.
Caroline Cavanagh: Um, yeah, yeah, very similar I mean I um, it used to be when I none started out speaking I would start worrying probably about 40 hours before and have the sleepless night and all that malarkey. But again I use the tools that you know I do generally practice what I pee preach but now like you it's that kind of probably about 30 minutes or so before I start you know I can feel the heart rate rising. But now I kind of welcome. Okay I know this is a good thing because I'm going to be more alert more on the ball. You don't want something standing in front of an audience of you know 150 people that's kind of laid back. You want someone that's on the ball and firing and that's what adrenaline does for you. So again, it's what you focus on you can see that feeling as something that's going to hold you back or you can see that feeling as something that's going to drive you forward. Do you want to see it as a negative or do you want to see it as a positive. It's a choice.
Joanne Lockwood: Is it a ah ah truism is it if we push our boundariies all the time does the our anxiety line move it just we just can cope with more or is it. Our base anxiety is always there.
Caroline Cavanagh: Fear is always there because it's keeping you safe. So as I say we when people say I never want to feel anxious again we'll go and sit in a cave That's probably the only solution if you want to get up and living. Then you are going to experience anxiety or fear at some point but the more you push those boundaries the easier it becomes to continue to push them so I've got this lovely little mathematical thing so bear with me if you think of um. A square that's kind of one meter by one meter you've got ah one Meter square if you take None step out of that and get to two meters so that's quite a big step. You've increased it by hundred percent but then your area of your comfort zone is then four meters so it's increased disproportionately to then take another step. You're going from two meters to three meters so that's easier proportionally than going from None to 2 that was 100% from 2 to 3 that's only 50% from 3 to 4 that's only 33% from force and so on. And each time the general area of your comfort zone is increasing disproportionately. So the more you step outside those boundaries the easier it becomes and the more confident you become people often say to me oh you know Um I want to be more confident confident. Isn't something you get, you can't just go to Tesco's and buy it. Confident is a result of bravery. So. It's like the the Abc you go from anxiety through bravery to get confident and it's that bravery of stepping outside your comfort zone. That allows you to grow.
Joanne Lockwood: So I took on the role of ah the presidency of ah of a national organization. Um, as I taught ten fifteen years ago and people asked me about why did I do that or how did I do it? Whatever I did. I and I I fliply always say because I could because what had happened was ah throughout my career in this organization I I moved up a ladder None rung at a time. So I dis roles within my local club stepped up did another role in my local club steps up a bit more and then I became the chair of the local club.
Caroline Cavanagh: Ah.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yep.
Joanne Lockwood: So I was up about 5 rungs up then I did some of the area stuff and the district stuff and stepped up stepped up then I did some stuff on the national executive and the committees stepped up and stepped up then I realized that the the distance between where I was today and doing the presidency of the entire association was one rung.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yep.
Joanne Lockwood: So taking that extra 1 rung was incrementally easy I was just I could touch it I could feel it I could be it I knew I could do it and I'm I remember saying someone the year the year after I finished I I'm slid down the pole next to the firemans pole down to the bottom and someone said well you do it again. I looked back I went I could never do that again.
Caroline Cavanagh: Easier. Yep yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Because I'd slid down the pole. It was now a massive ladder again and so exactly what you're saying there is you're doubling the squares. You're just taking another step and another step you look over your shoulder think Wow haven't I come a long way but the reality is the next step is so close. It's touching distance.
Caroline Cavanagh: Absolutely yeah, yeah I I take an awful lot from nature and I don't remember whose quote it was um, but someone said yeah in nature. 2 things are happening. Things are either growing or they're dying you know and it's a little bit Blunt. It's a little bit binary but actually it's quite True. So as individuals we can keep nudging and you don't have to be you know some superhuman or you know or rosseraptor.
Joanne Lockwood: That's a yeah.
Caroline Cavanagh: As long as you are taking steps. You know you can do it by the meter you can do it by the millimeter but whilst you are still pushing that comfort zone out you are growing as soon as you stop pushing it. It starts to shrink and that's one of the big things that happened. That's caused this massive rise in anxiety during the pandemic because everyone's comfort. Zone was forcibly shrunk. Yeah, one of the things I love driving I'm quite a confident and hopefully competent driver. But I didn't get in my car and drive for I think it was about ten weeks and the none time I got in the car I could actually feel my heart rate rising again I felt nervous because that comfort zone of you know, driving all over Europe. Had suddenly gone to not driving at all. You know it very quickly bounced back to where it was but it was a real clear sign of how comfort zones if you're not nudging them out. Do start to ping back and if you bring this into you know the corporates.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Caroline Cavanagh: People have been working from home. They're now being told to go back to work. That's actually a source of anxiety for a lot of people even though they may have been working in an office for 20 years of their career but it's it's making that step. It's making that None step is the hardest 1
Joanne Lockwood: So yeah I see a lot of that. Yeah.
Caroline Cavanagh: Then you inch and you inch and you inch so going back to work and again a lot of corporates that are doing this well are inviting people back to the office one day a week then two days then three days rather than saying you've been working at home for None ars You gotta come back full time. That's. Too much of a jump for a lot of people so break it down into those incremental steps that makes it much easier to do.
Joanne Lockwood: I.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, we went from a kind of ah a fomo society fear of missing out to a Jomo society which is the joy of missing out. You didn't need all that high energy extrovertism partying mixing.
Caroline Cavanagh: Mom.
Joanne Lockwood: And then we moved from a Jomo Society was this to a cba society where we we can't be asked. Yeah, be kind of our static position is kind of comfort zone at home. Why do I need to go out. Why do I need do this I've meant perfect. Well for two years I'm happy and that's the challenge isn't it moving people. But for for the can't be asked.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Rooted to the sofa which to the home to through Jomo back to Fomo and it's getting people to read recalibrate. You know.
Caroline Cavanagh: Well interesting I've seen a lot of things on the other side of well of people that were you know suddenly working from home and going why the hell. Do I want to go back to spending an hour on a packed train every morning to work in an office with people I don't actually like and so for a lot of people. Ironically yeah, flipping it on again overseeing the positive is a lot of people have gone. I want to do something just for me now and had complete career transformations or said yeah that thing I always wanted to do I am now going to do it so you know there's been a whole spectrum of of responses to to the lockdown. Um, and some of which I think again are really positive giving people a new lease of life to really, it's enough of a change out of their comfort zone to say actually this step that I've been thinking about for a long time from where I am now is much more achievable.
Joanne Lockwood: We as ah as a a society just think about the UK for a moment here. We've found a lot of change in the last three or four years here brexit has created anxiety for a lot of people in terms of their businesses or they're traveling or the way they're interacting with people then we obviously covered.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yep.
Joanne Lockwood: Multiple lockdowns the vaccination scares whether we should be vaccinated not vaccinated. We had un decisions. We've had a lot of anxiety in our political establishment around our faith and confidence in our leaders to manage and govern effectively. We've now got the war in Ukraine. Desabbilizing a major part of Europe and creating another bit of fear and unknown we've got now we've got traffic disruption lack of resourcing against ah people being able to fly and because of the the covid pandemic and we got cost living crisis. We've got oil oil prices energy. But so.
Caroline Cavanagh: Um, finances. Yep.
Joanne Lockwood: As a society. We've been through a lot in the last three or four years and it it doesn't seem to be getting any better. We seem to have this which must be really impacting on people's mental health.
Caroline Cavanagh: Um, yeah, absolutely and this is where again, it's what you choose to focus on so to give you a very personal example when the Ukraine situation was sort of in in the. Big focus and I was thinking about that today. Actually we hardly ever see it on the news anymore I'm sure it hasn't ended but when it was really that focus my husband and I did have a discussion. Do. We go down the road of of having um a refugee. Do we make open our doors. And it was a really tough call. Um my my daughter was just about to start sitting array levels and I thought well actually bringing 1 to 3 people into our home and disrupting that environment at a time when we actually need a lot of stability is that a good cause and it was a real like heart versus head. Doing the right thing for her for people who are now homeless. Um, and in the end we decided we wouldn't ah get a refugee but we would make a donation to a charity to hopefully help them in that way and that was my decision. This is what we can do therefore do what you can do. I can't solve the war I can't save soldiers lives therefore I'm not spending a lot of my time on energy worrying about things that I can't have any impact over. Um, with all of these things you know it is a reality you know our electricity bills have gone through the roof worrying about it all it's going to do is to actually diminish your own mental health your enjoyment of the day so bring it back to what can you do. So you know can you be more disciplined in turning off lights. Can you change things to be more. You know, environmentally friendly use less electricity. What can you do because as soon as you put yourself back in a position of control. You reduce the anxiety so it's like anxiety and control. Are 2 ends of a line and as soon as you increase or decrease the control. The anxiety increases similarly if you increase the control the anxiety reduces you can't have them both present at the same time It's almost like None ne's black 1 ne's white and there's shades of gray all between and so as soon as you put yourself in that and take back an element of control. You will be reducing your anxiety.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, a previous guest and and speaker a friend of mine. A lady called Mandy Hickon in her former life. She was a iraf fast ship fighter pilot. She used to fly tornado f four s one hundred feet above the ground through mountainous regions into Afghanistan and places like that.
Caroline Cavanagh: Oh.
Caroline Cavanagh: Well yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And 1 of her phrases you I often quote is control the controllables so you can't control everything what you can do is control what you can control and ah another phrase that someone put in an acronym is cia controlled influence or accept if you can't control it.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yes, yeah, yeah.
Caroline Cavanagh: Accept yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Can you influence if you can't influence it can you accept it and if you can't accept it You then have to pick another option. You have to say well I have to invent something or I have to control something or change the rules and step out of this because if you if you end up not being able to accept something that could be worse. Not be able to control something so it's move to a point where you either accept it or change it and sometimes.
Caroline Cavanagh: Um.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yep.
Joanne Lockwood: Given a rock and a hard place change may be better than than staying where you are.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah, yeah, yeah I think that's a great acronym and when I tend to focus more on the on the control. It's a but you accept the energy process aren't going to be coming down any time soon. Yeah, can you influence them? probably not. But that you want to become a petition a Politician overnight. So What can you control exactly? Yeah yeah, um, and yeah, then.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, yeah, you can control your usage your spend. Yeah.
Caroline Cavanagh: You can limit that to a limit. What else do you? then? let go of you, you prioritize? what's a priority for you. You know my my had a lovely conversation with my son years ago where he was getting very upset because all his a couple of his school friends were.
Joanne Lockwood: I wait.
Caroline Cavanagh: Always in designer clothes had the you know latest gadget and gimmick and he said you know why don't why don't I have that and I said to him. Well we've decided that we're going to spend our money on experiences so you have amazing holidays you know age None you've been to 3 continents in the world. We go to the theater we go out to lots of restaurants. That's how we decide to spend our money and it means the compromise on that is you get your jeans from tescoes. It doesn't matter you because you're going to rip them in the first week anyway. But that's aside but. Yeah, it's all about choices. What? what is a priority to you um you know Maslow's hierarchy massively dated but it's still relevant. You start off at the bottom you know, have you got shelter have you got can you be meet your you know food needs.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Caroline Cavanagh: Once that's ticked you go up to the next level. Um, and so it's coming back to Well yes, we all need to be warm and sometimes that means you have to compromise on something else if that becomes your priority but you're back in control when you make those decisions.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Joanne Lockwood: I Love what you say about the Ora your family ethos of mantra if you know stuff met so memory not stuff and it took me a long time to realize that in my life. Maybe I had to do my forty s and get into my fifty s before I realized that memories were now more important.
Caroline Cavanagh: Um, yes.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: But then I I suppose on the other side is I had stuff most of my life I bought cars I bought expensive things big house on that So I did all that and I think what happened was I realized that that didn't give me satisfaction. It was memories with people and family that suddenly become more.
Caroline Cavanagh: And.
Joanne Lockwood: Inanimate objects and possessions. Um, it didn't need the fastest car didn't need the newest this so it didn't need to be shiny anymore. Just adequate and working. So yeah, it took me on want to realize that and maybe we should teach that in our schools memory is not stuff. It's ah ah, a good.
Caroline Cavanagh: I Think for for the likes of you and me that's important. But for other people the stuff is important. You know some people do genuinely get that pleasure for every time they get in their Ferrari They feel good.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, good mantrothing.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, Oh yeah, completely I don't knock it. Um.
Caroline Cavanagh: For me all I need is a car that starts when I turn the ignition on I don't really care what it looks like. So again, it comes down to that um choice what you what you focus on gives you the feelings that you want. So if it's the if it's the red ferrari and driving it. You know. Ninety Miles an hour that makes you buzz brilliant do that. But for me I would rather be in the center of you know borneo hunting for some you know, weird out there animals or something it's it's it's a choice.
Joanne Lockwood: Oh completely completely? Yeah, yeah, but for me under sort of for me here I found myself chasing the next fix through stuff and I really.
Caroline Cavanagh: Do what makes you happy.
Caroline Cavanagh: Um.
Joanne Lockwood: That's what that's the epiphany when I've I found I could get my fix for memories from family from experience from that emotional connection with with those memories and yeah I mean I I could have a track day I could drive a fast car could do all that sort thing. And that's a memory as well. So yeah, if you're building memory through stuff as well. That's even even greater. Yeah I suppose for me I just reached that point point in my life where focusing on what was important to me now and ah I always tell my children don't buy me tat for Christmas or birthdays buy me a memory and ah.
Caroline Cavanagh: Um, we have.
Caroline Cavanagh: You.
Joanne Lockwood: But daughter bought me a yeah, an experience day we went to walked with our packers for 2 hours we weren't in the field we had an nowpaca each. We just walked around with his alpaca on a lead feeding it and watching it have a poo and have a wee and or something and it was just a wonderful 2 hours to spend together.
Caroline Cavanagh: Um, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And that was an experience that I will never forget I'll treasure that now for the rest of my life and there was those I think laying down those memories and and again you talk about fear and anxiety. It was sort a great opportunity to destress to chill take it easy.
Caroline Cavanagh: Oh.
Joanne Lockwood: Focus on the alpaca not on anything else going in the world. No mobile signal. All those kind of things so it was ah it was a great opportunity to spend time with my daughter for 2 hours or 3 hours and technical couldn't get in there and yeah it was a that's a memory.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yep. Yeah I mean this year we've we've decided we said to our our kids men there. Their kids are None and None now. Um is we're going to go skiing for Christmas and that will be your present. Yes, there'll be a couple of token things that you can open on the day but that will be the present is you know all spending. Um yeah, a week of over Christmas in the alps because that to us becomes something and actually they're really excited. They don't care that they're not going to get.
Joanne Lockwood: So yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I Yeah I think it's I think it's magical I think it's magical. Well but I'm ah I talked to a lot of leaders and ah so my white orbed's inclusion belonging I see a lot of leaders.
Caroline Cavanagh: Designer, Whatever or gizmos is because that will be.. That's how they determine their fund there. What.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yep.
Joanne Lockwood: Not truly allowing their staff to perform at their best and a lot of people have anxiety over pressure to work too much to deliver and I certainly talk to people who are kind of being overloaded with work tasks. How do? How do you help people sort of overcome that that loading or the overloading that you can often find in the workplace.
Caroline Cavanagh: It's yeah, that is a really tough None um, many many years ago I used to work for Honda um, you know very japanese culture and so this would have been in the mid 90 s and it was very much that. You didn't leave the office until your boss had gone so people would be sitting there literally playing you know video games on their on their laptop because they couldn't be seen to be leaving their desk because their bosses was hadn't left yet. And hopefully we've moved a long way from there but there is still this um fear or failure and it's it's determining what for you is failure so you know. I left companies probably before I was kicked out because I was quite like theociraptor again I would bite people quite readily and say things that didn't necessarily go down well and hopefully I've got a little bit more decorum about that now. But I encourage people to say you you are the only None experiencing your life. And to stand up and actually say I cannot do all of this work in the time that you've given me is a responsibility that you should place on yourself because the only person that's struggling. Is you. Yeah, so fear of failure fear of judgment they're they're very similar in terms of their orientation and especially I do a lot of work with teenagers and a lot of teenagers. Do really worry about the fear of judgment and so judgment is purely an opinion. So allow someone the opportunity to change their opinion. Well notice. It is an opinion. You don't have to take it on board. So similarly if you have a strong opinion share it but accept that others may not agree with it. But the source of that you know I'm I'm overburdened I'm worried I'm working too hard who is going to suffer from that. It's only ever going to be you and and it's it's you know it's not tough. Oh sorry it is tough. It is hard to step out of that comfort zone and and put your hand up and go. Actually I cannot do this where we go from then is rather than just giving your boss. The the problem is I can't do this but I can do this this and this and if we did this differently that would save us more time.
Caroline Cavanagh: So again when I had when I worked in the organization and had quite a large team with me I always said never come to me with a problem. Always come to me with the solution and we can then discuss if that's the best solution and between us we can work out where we go. But your problem isn't my problem take ownership of your problem and find the solution because again coming back to what we are talking about that puts you back in a place of control Now if you pass the problem over to your boss and just go Oh I'm struggling then you're still not in any other place of. Control because you've given the problem to someone else whereas if you go Okay I'm struggling and this is what I need doesn't necessarily mean you've got it. But you've taken a step further down that line of control.
Joanne Lockwood: You you can ask for resource you can ask for help you can ask for prioritization. You can easy phrase for me I always say is I've got four things I can do 3 which one gives which which is the least important thing today.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah, which one which one can I drop yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's working on techniques like that because I see a lot of burnout in in in people in work and anxiety and all this kind of pressure is because they don't not they want to say yes they want to be seen as competent as you say the fear of being judged badly isn't this is is kicking in.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah, but I'm certainly seeing within organizations as the sort of diversity inclusion on a sort of very macro level is starting to come in. There is more acceptance of people that you know not to make light of it are different in some way. That is also now opening the door to conversations about other things as well. So It's moving away from fitting into the stereotypical This is how I need to be to make being different being unique, much more acceptable and tolerated Now. We still got a long way to go but I do believe it is getting better and so making those conversations easier to have Also I don't know is that something that you'd agree with.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I think there is a yeah you say diversity inclusion inclusion belonging workplace wellbeing I see as as big ticket items these days and I think George Floyd covered
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: In the Uk we had Sarah Everards Rape murder and abduction and the murder of other women of anxiety around that so people are waking up now to this? Yeah, if we do end danger when I say waking up of being the woke culture for me being woke is just becoming socially aware of the challenges in societies we are becoming more aware. About people's challenges about the in the workplace getting along um, leaders are more more acutely aware now of their responsibility of how they make people feel organizations realize that their culture is dependent on their employee engagement their employee experience. There's a global talent shortage. Struggling to employ and recruit people and again the candidate experience has to be fantastic. Otherwise you end up making offers that get counter offered or declined at the last minute. So I think employers are definitely tuned into the fact now that we're living in a different world and the the the focus on people.
Caroline Cavanagh: Um I think um I would love to get in a time machine and go forward. You know 1020 years I was talking to an organization just a couple of weeks ago um
Joanne Lockwood: Is critical to their survival and their success. So.
Caroline Cavanagh: Big name in the finance industry who are doing a lot of work at sort of middle management and below in terms of staff. Well-being and mental health but the head of the organization when he was approached for investment just turned around and said. I don't employ people to make them happy. But this is someone that is very much of a you know? should we say a much older generation that would have been in that organization right? The way through for the you know for 45 years of of his career. And had got to the top but he was still running that mentality so that becomes very hard to change. But you know when he does move on and someone that has ah it'll open mindded. There will be a continual and it's that proverbial. Um, you know the rolling Stone. It gets faster and faster. Change is happening and I think the pace of change will increase as you know even people of our generation who are you know a force for change. Ah bringing people up below us that's going to mean that it becomes the norm rather than something that you're fighting to achieve.
Joanne Lockwood: You and you're right? It is to be reality that there are still organizations out there that have um is to say people within it who are living in a different era and different mentalities and different culture.
Caroline Cavanagh: It just takes time. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And there else to this pervasive thoughts about you know I own you you're here to do what I So my bidding again we come back to perception perspective opinions and judgment I'd like to think that those are becoming less less and less. But I I completely agree that maybe at the senior levels at the board level.
Caroline Cavanagh: M.
Joanne Lockwood: There's a lot of that old school thinking where their their pressure is shareholder value. They don't they don't need to be happy. They want you to deliver a shareholder value and maybe they haven't quite crossed that threshold yet to understand that happy people deliver better value and it's also and I admit it's a very privileged thing to say is if you're not happy with where you are rather than.
Caroline Cavanagh: Ah, slowly more normal.
Joanne Lockwood: Anxiety or fear about it then you have the opportunity to change and that is leave find another job and I appreciate that it's a very privilege thing to say to say to someone if you're not happy leave because there are many people who can't for whatever reason or they're not in in a marketplace where they're they have they feel they have value.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Joanne Lockwood: So yeah, it is but you you you have the choice to put up or shut up or get on with it or to make a difference and I also say to people if you if you're working for bass working for organization where you don't find your values are being respected then you either just have to assimilate yourself into it or make the ultimate sacrifice say. This this place isn't for me I'll leave in the so way. The company would do to you if you didn't fit into their values and ethos they was to exit you out the door so you have the same choice to make your own decision. So I would encourage people to do that. But yeah, say it's very pri thing to say and not everyone's in enough is able to sort of.
Caroline Cavanagh: M.
Joanne Lockwood: Make that life changing or job changed for whatever circumstance.
Caroline Cavanagh: When I when I first started working as a therapist I used to think that one of the most debilitating emotions was guilt but I've actually reviewed that and I would now say that the most toxic emotion is regret. And regret kind of has 2 prongs. There's regret of things that you've done but actually you can turn that into a positive because there's learning whereas regret of things that you didn't do and can't then do can become very very debilitating. And so bringing that into you know, regret for not leaving a company. You can't ever change that whereas regret for leaving means you you learned and you can use that learning to go on and get a better job. And as you say you know that it's a very easy way for some people or latens. There's all the buts and wherefors. But I would come back to very basic. You are responsible for your quality of life. Yeah, people often say that makes me angry. No one can make you have a feeling they can physically hurt you by pushing you over punching you but no one can make you have a feeling and the evidence of that is if I was to tell a joke and make people laugh. Everyone would find me funny. But I can tell a joke and there would be a myriad of responses. Some people might laugh, Some people might chuckle Some people might not find it. Some people might find it offensive. It's exactly the same words. It's how that's internalized and you create your own feeling. And then that's yeah, right, The way back to where we started. We create our own anxiety by what we focus on.
Joanne Lockwood: I so when I I was on a panel the other day and the their curveable final question to the panelists was what what bit of advice would you give your 5 year old self and I said Mike moments once was just do what you're going to do just keep on being you.
Caroline Cavanagh: Oh.
Joanne Lockwood: Because when you get to 57 you'll you'll be happy with life. So don't change the thing just just just be you and I think if we regret for a great decision' made in the past that changes who you are today. So if I'm if I if I made if decisions a ten year old or None ear old then I may not have made by met my wife I may not have my children. My children would have grown up in the way you've done it. The relationships I've built and the life I've had since but all have changed I'm not saying change worse or it just changed different. So if I'm completely satisfied with a lot of what I have today. How can I regret that because by changing None thing.
Caroline Cavanagh: Me.
Joanne Lockwood: Could destabilize everything I have today. So you're right? It's about if I if I if I wish I'd done something differently. There's different to regret I've now I can now learn I can now take the opportunity. Yeah I may regret spending a lazy Sunday and not not doing something I should have done or I could have done.
Caroline Cavanagh: No.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yes, yeah.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Think okay I'll I'll learn from that and do it next Sunday or make sure I do or or not beat myself up or just go actually I needed a rest I didn't need to do that today. It didn't matter and then maybe looking at the? yeah yeah, the mattering spectrum does it in the in this kind of things did it really matter.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah.
Caroline Cavanagh: O.
Joanne Lockwood: And what am I beating myself off about. So yeah, it's It's a good good point about regret. It has no value. It has no doesn't change things regrets and change like guilt or shame is just it's just emotions that you you can't do anything with it's about learning educating focusing deciding What's next.
Caroline Cavanagh: 1
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah, yeah, and even say going back to to guilt people often see guilt is a bad thing but all of our emotions have a role guilt again is from learning I used to have a huge amount of guilt. Um for for not doing enough not being enough. And it was when I was doing my training as a hypnotherapist I put myself up as the guinea pig for one of the interventions and um I went back to a memory when I was probably about None or None something like that. My mom was a big baker and she'd make this whole batch of cookies. Put them on the kitchen windowsillll and said Caroline leave those alone there for tea and of course as soon as she left the room I snuffled none of them ran up the garden and ate them all and that guilt because I knew I shouldn't done. It was still seated within me as a kind of negative energy that I'd never released. And that then you know carried on being triggered so as for guilty about this because I knew I shouldn't be doing it so the role of guilt is learning and as soon as I kind of forgave myself and went okay us None they were only flipping cookies. The world is still spinning did mum notice probably. Didn't find out certainly didn't tell me offer it. It's okay and as soon as I kind of gave that permission to forgive myself the rest of the guilt just kind of dispersed guilt is again. It's an emotion is a positive emotion because it helps you to learn. Don't steal things. Because it feels bad. Yeah yeah, and that's that's always what any anything when you when people come to me or feel real guilty. It's always about doing something that you was wrong. So.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, yes, doing something you know is wrong. Yeah, that's about sets about selfdiscipline isn't it. Yeah.
Caroline Cavanagh: Learn from it. Forgive yourself move on. Don't do it again. So again, all of our emotions. Yeah well.
Joanne Lockwood: You or or change your relationship with with right and wrong I'm not saying if it'st it it' societally unacceptable then yes I I agree but sometimes we we can feel guilt about something we perceive is wrong because that's our own internal. Moral Compass or standard the the world doesn't Necessari see it is wrong is is we we internalize as through shame Guilt. It's a hidden secret. Whatever that may be.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yep.
Caroline Cavanagh: Let me yeah and again that sort of comes back to what what are you focusing on what's wrong, watch right? You can focus on the wrong you're looking at the negative but what? yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, yeah.
Caroline Cavanagh: I didn't look at all the things that that None year old that did but really good I was just focusing on the 1 thing that she did was quite bad.
Joanne Lockwood: And I know a lot of people feel a lot of guilt and shame about their sexuality their gender identity. Maybe even their mental health. Whatever it may be or their or their their lack of or I know people feel kind of.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Guilty about not being an extrovert not being able to mix at parties not being allowed conversations. There's a whole lot of stuff there that I think as youre pointing out the the response we're looking for really is is learning and growing and how do we? How do we move past that. How do we start to love ourselves and accept who we are None
Caroline Cavanagh: Um.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yes.
Joanne Lockwood: That's sometimes the biggest challenge isn't that we we don't love ourselves enough.
Caroline Cavanagh: There's still something that I would would love to see that you know to become more inclusive and accepted generally is this perception that mental Health is a weakness. So if someone got a bit had ah a tumor. You wouldn't necessarily. You wouldn't see that as a weakness if someone only had one arm you wouldn't see that as a weakness but people then see mental Health yeah anxiety or depression. Whatever it may be that is a weakness. No, it's just a part of your mind. That's not working to its optimum just as if you have a tumor.. It's that organ is not working to its optimum. It's no different but there is still a big diversity in how physical illness and mental illness is treated.
Joanne Lockwood: So I noticed that some of the notes you said through earlier that you were 35 years old with a young child and None five weeks pregnant a young child when you moved to Germany that must been a a challenge um to be upped and dropped in a new community out.
Caroline Cavanagh: Um, yeah, 35 weeks pregnant. Yeah yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: To that teacher about yourself.
Caroline Cavanagh: To be very self-sufficient. Yeah, that was um so I told my husband was in the army I told him I was pregnant two days before he went off to Iraq so he was off in Iraq for seven months he came back. We had a week and holiday and then literally moved out to Germany um, when I was 35 weeks pregnant where I didn't know another soul. Fortunately I did speak germanm so that helped a little bit. Um, but yeah too and my daughter at the time was um, 18 months old. So I had a toddler. No support network new home. Um, and Nick was quite senior as well. So the military hierarchy is is a fun thing to play it around in especially as a woman so I was effectively chief bitch which made it quite hard to make friends at times. Um, and yet you you become quite resilient. Um I think army wise are they either become very strong or they move out of the Army Network you it does teach you to become very resilient. Ah, very self self-supporting but it is it is a fabulous network to be part of as well. Um, give you another very positive example, my daughter got pneumonia and the german hospital system is is very different. You basically as a parent become the nurse. So I had to be with her None um and literally all the nurses do in german hospitals is deliver medication. They don't do the kind of you know, snuggling down and and all the touchy feeling stuff. Um, and my son at the time was five months old and as all these things happen nick was away in another country I can't even remember where um it happened in the middle of the night so there was me a baby and a very very sick toddler 2 am in in hospital so as soon as I thought it was relevant I called a friend. And literally within 3 hours someone had picked up my house keys had gone and fed the dog someone had picked up the baby and just said don't worry about her him we will be he will be looked after until you're back out the hospital. And literally that was it. He was just past you know from house to house. He was always looked after he might not have been hugely happy but he was safe that was my only priority so I could give all my attention to Nadia had I not been in that military environment I don't think that would have happened.
Joanne Lockwood: So it's their instant family. Their instant support network.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah, it's just that whole kind of okay what needs to be done. It will happen.
Joanne Lockwood: And so because your your your your husband was a senior officer or rank rating or whatever see you assume the equivalent role as the ah as the wife partner.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You are you know.
Joanne Lockwood: And you you have to sort of hold court over the people of more Junior ranking wives, etc, etc and you're expect to be the head of the head of the wives. Yeah.
Caroline Cavanagh: But that's yeah, that's a kind of the that's the expectation and that there's there's certain roles and functions that um that you have to fulfill and you know Nick and I have a very good relationship and I said to Nick look okay I will. I will do certain things but I do them in my way I will host all the dinner parties. But you know I will expect people to walk in kick off their shoes and curl up on the sofa if that's what they want to do I'm not going to do the whole stuffy. Things and I will do the meet and greet. But I'll turn up on the doorstep in my welly boots with the dog and a packet of biscuits and see where we go from there so I do things my way and it will either go down well or it won't because again i've.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Caroline Cavanagh: Manage to develop this kind of thicker skin of this is who I am I don't need to be loved. You know it's lovely when you are but I don't need to be loved and I will do things that make me feel good.
Joanne Lockwood: Um, your story about moving to Germany Pregnant sort of ah it' sparked a memory that my yeah I had a concept for my mother so I was born in 9065 and my father was in the navy.
Caroline Cavanagh: So.
Joanne Lockwood: And he was posted out to Singapore because in the mid 60 s there was a lot of trouble out there benglaysians so the bridges were out there keeping peace in their area and my mu flew out to join him shortly after he was dispatched on ah on ah I h miss bullwark I think he was at the time and she didn't realize she was pregnant with me and she's found out.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yep.
Joanne Lockwood: She was pregnant with me I think shortly after she arrived and she was told at that point there had had it been known. She was pregnant or that that far pregnant she wouldn' have been allowed to fly that was the rules in those days. So I think it's military transport. The flying was probably different in the mid 60 s and so she she was faced with raising.
Caroline Cavanagh: Price yeah.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Me She was giving um a local person called an armor who was her effectively her assistant because it's so hot so sticky. So I think even if she wasn't pregnant. She would have had somebody who had helped her a La boshine laundry and everything another.
Caroline Cavanagh: M.
Caroline Cavanagh: Show.
Joanne Lockwood: But yeah, she she had ah she had an armor which who affected to became my nanny and of course I suppose she had the luxury of of my father working and living near the ship near the base so he wasn't He wasn't stationed away. But obviously you went off an exercise so she was thrown into a different culture. Um.
Caroline Cavanagh: H.
Joanne Lockwood: A completely different language. Yes, it's using a kind of microcosm of expat service personnel around her but it was ah again you could I suppose you could argue that german Germany is is a not too dissimilar culture from a european perspective yes language and other other rules. But yes she she was definitely Malaysia.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And Singapore and it was a completely different world. So yeah I was talking to about the other week and to put your sense. She must have had it tough. She must have had a this real fat really isolated and.
Caroline Cavanagh: Um, more.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah I genuinely feel it was a real privilege to be an army wife for the how many twenty odd years that I was there were times like that which were incredibly hard. But I've also had access to so many things so many privileges and and seen so many events and um.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Caroline Cavanagh: You know, trooping of the color in back in in London or things like that that I wouldn't have had access to if I wasn't yeah doing the role that that I was so again. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: And clearly yeah, you're a very confident self-assured woman those those of her mind got a business that's successful able to tackle challenges and I'm sure. You grow into that as as you evolve in that in that sort of situation where you are you are put in those difficult tough situations.
Caroline Cavanagh: Know you know that that's kind of you to say? Thank you but I haven't always been confident now I didn't go to university because I was too scared to leave home. Um, yeah, there's lots of things that I can say I didn't do because of anxiety. So I'm not anything special but I have learned I have become who I am today because I just kept nudging that comfort zone out and now it's quite big but you know there's there's nothing special about me I've just carried on like I think one of my favorite words is curiosity.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Caroline Cavanagh: I'm just curious I was ah as a gymnast to quite a high level when I was young and um, the way my my trainer quickly queued into if I was having a bit of a tantrum about something said I couldn't do it. She'd just say oh Caroline. Okay Caroline. You can't do it. Because if someone says to me, you've got to go left my curiosity goes what's down the right hand puff in. So if someone says you can't I'm going to go? Well let me see if I can and that I think it's the curiosity that probably for me is the inherent strength that I've always had.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Caroline Cavanagh: To see what's just the other side of that bit that I don't know and as we've you know said when when you go outside the comfort zone. That's when confidence grows.
Joanne Lockwood: I used have a a reputation for yeah I have a reputation people would used to ask me what did I want to do did I want do this or do want to do that. My response always be can I do both please? um and I'd always.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I'd always insist on doing the none thing the thing that was chronologically first because there's always the chance you can do the None thing as well. But if you if you turn down the none thing and you don't like the None thing you've missed you missed the opportunities I'd always I'd always take the first option and when I was out in the in Los Angeles for a while where I was done to work over there. Bank and we had to be hired a castle weekend I think it was a thanksgiving weekend where the whole place just shuts down. We haven't got family we we we drove this? Ah I think it was a pontiac or a Ford something Mustang or something we drove it with the roof down up the eye up the I one. I went yeah the pacific of the pacific highway and we got to this place called Oxnard which is not particularly not particularly nice town bystan it's kind of industrial and we were looking for something to eat and we all going. Well I don't know what? What do you? fancy? What do you? fancy? What are you fancy? So I just said hang on a minute what we do is we do what I call green man navigation. We get to an intersection and we whichever light was green. We cross the road. We get to the next one we we curungu straight every time it's green. We cross the road that way so we were navigating around around in this town basically by green man intersections. We just keep going straight from there and eventually we came across this burger join and said well this is where destiny has taken us.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yep.
Joanne Lockwood: We went ah at ah at a big full of messy burgers and the and the borrow of the story is is that that burlar was absolutely awful. It was really really awful. It wasn't the place you would have chosen but we got there by chance and we had fun that day just the randomness of not having any predetermmined plan.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah, oh.
Joanne Lockwood: The in the absence for decision use something else to create a path for you and yeah and I've I've used that technique on a number of it so comes now which path is clear is go that way and then see what happens and ah, it's a great way of just I don't know movings of anxiety. Just.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Abdicating the decision if you like for a bit and just go up with the flow and a lot of people sometimes find that really difficult to just let go and go with the flow and it's and I think it you don't have to have a plan. You don't have to know what you're going to do next but I appreciate sometimes people like that.
Caroline Cavanagh: No.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Caroline Cavanagh: You' going to be a big source of anxiety is the what if you know what? if XYEd happens so it's it's going projecting out into the future and my response always is what if it doesn't you just flip it.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, yeah.
Caroline Cavanagh: Your brain will answer whatever question you feed it. So if you feed it a negative question. You know what if I get made redundant What if my husband has an affair your mind will go down that rabbit hole leading to a particular emotion typically you know anxiety whatever it may be whereas if you just flip the question.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Caroline Cavanagh: What if he doesn't what if I get the job it will answer that question too leading you to a very different place. So again, what if it's It's a really easy one to to change what you're focusing on to give you a different reality.
Joanne Lockwood: And yeah, completely what on that now I mean we've been talking for coming for an hour now and it's been amazing. We could carry on talk about this all day and I've got loads of more questions I can ask you. It's been fascinating to get to know you better and hear your story as well.
Caroline Cavanagh: I Think we could.
Caroline Cavanagh: Likewise.
Joanne Lockwood: So Caroline Kanaugh how do people get hold of you. So.
Caroline Cavanagh: So ah I made life easy both for me and everyone else. It's just Caroline Kavanaugh Dot Co uk um and on there there's all sorts of things. Lots of free downloadable resources on how to reduce anxiety. You can get a copy in my book. Which is called anxiety alchemy um, one thing that I ah, do recommend for people. It's to get a real good feel for not only my work but how you can use the mind differently is. It's a thirty day course and I know we all join these courses. The intention of doing thirty days you know it's it's there you can dip into and out of it. But it's 30 different techniques to reduce stress we live in a stressful world. So the more tools that you have in your toolbox. The more finesse you can have in whatever situation that you're faced with so there's tools that are great if your stress level is about to be at implosion then there's None or 3 things that are really good at just bringing you down that notch. Some great tools that can again bring you down further. There's ones that are really good at stopping it building up in the none place. So um, it's ah, easily accessible. It's very cheap and it's just a series of very short videos that you learn you practice and when you're ready you move on to the next one so but yeah best thing is just Caroline Kavah Dot Code Uk have a have a look around because there's lots of lots of stuff on there both from my own and and from other people as well.
Joanne Lockwood: And and just for the people listening to this kavana is about CAVANAGH all right.
Caroline Cavanagh: It is indeed. Yeah and it's Caroline C A R O L I N E because that can be spelt in lots of different ways as well.
Joanne Lockwood: Yes, ah we've learnt not to make assumptions on this podcast because yeah I've had some fantastic Irish guests on here and how they spell the name and how they pronounce it are completely different. So yeah, if we we can't make any assumptions.
Caroline Cavanagh: Very much saying.
Caroline Cavanagh: Yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Caroline. Thank you It's been a blast. Absolutely fantastic and it's been an honor to have you here today. So for our guests people are listening huge thank you to you for tuning in please do subscribe to keep updates on future episodes of the inclusion Bites podcast that's b I t yes. Tell your friends tell your colleagueleys please share the love I have a number of other exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you'd be equally inspired by over the next few weeks and months and of course maybe if you're listening in and you'd like to be a guest. Please let me know and of course I'd always welcome feedback and suggestions on how I can improve the show and ideas. So please email me http://joe.lockwoodacnchapman.codek and finally my name is Joanne Lockwood it's been an absolute pleasure to host his podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.