Joanne Lockwood: Hello everyone my name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the inclusion bites podcast in this series I have interviewed a number of amazing people as simply had a conversation about the subject of inclusion belonging and generally making the but world a better place for everyone to thrive. Like to join me in the future then please do drop me a line to Jo Dot Lockwood as c change chapman dot code it uk that's swly change happen dot code it uk you can catch up with all of the previous shows on Itunes Spotify and the usual places so plug in your headphones, grab a dcaf and let's get going. Today is episode 66 with the title unhiding oneself at work and I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Cat Kien Cat describes themselves as someone who teaches people to write job postings to remove bias and get the right people to apply. But I asked cat to describe their superpower. They said that they never forget a face and they ask great questions. Hello cat welcome to the show.
Kat Kibben: Thanks so much for having me Jo.
Joanne Lockwood: It's a pleasure. So absolute Pleasure. We've never met in person I don't think but we've chatted a bit online. We've done a few webinars together and I've been really looking forward to just having a chat with no no other agenda than than having a chat for a podcast. So Really great. It's a cat. We're talking just now about hiding and unhiding oneself at work. So What does that mean to you.
Kat Kibben: You know it's interesting I spend so much time talking about job postings. But on the other side of a job posting is somebody who has to live with their job right? and I.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Kat Kibben: Think about this from 2 perspectives the side of me that had to exist in corporate America and the side of me that exists now as an entrepreneur and someone who's traveling the country and honestly I spent most of my life hiding. Having this deep knowing of myself whether it was coming out as a lesbian many years ago or realizing that I was trans later in life and and being able to put words to a feeling I always had I don't want anyone to think I was like reading a book one day of like interesting that could be that.
Joanne Lockwood: Thank you.
Kat Kibben: Like this is definitely something that all of the signs were there but I never had language for it because I grew up in a military family and so military family. It was against the rules to be gay trans was not even a conversation and. That put me and really conditioned me to believe that there were going to be 2 versions of myself that I would get to go to work and be 1 person and I wouldn't have to talk about my personal life I could just hide all my personal things. And then go home at night and be whatever I wanted to be and then show up the next day and be the best person at work and the best person at home and the truth is that if there's a gap between who you think you are at work and who you think you are at home. There's often a gap in success too. You're never going to be the best in your career. If you're pretending to be something else and I did that and I will never forget my very first corporate job and having someone ask me about a date I had that night and I said I was going on a date with someone named Stacy. And they immediately said oh who is he what he's like what is he like and it made it so obvious to me that whether they had an issue with me being gay or not they assumed I wasn't and that I shouldn't be and from that day forward. It kind of put this lens on my mind that.
Kat Kibben: I had to pretend until I knew it was safe. Fast forward many moons later and I couldn't hide anymore I cut off my long curly hair I had curls down to my shoulders I wore pink shirts I did everything to fit in because I cared more about my career than being who I was. And when I started my own business I realized that I couldn't keep pretending about who I was being and still create connection. I'm a writer I Want to connect with people I Want to tell stories. That's that's what I love about the work I get to do every day and yes job postings are stories. They're not just junk content for the internet. And the more I told the story the more I realized how much it enabled the success of my business it enabled the success that I wanted which was really just to feel like I mattered you know I think that's what we all want I think we all worry if we're doing it right? If if. Who we are is enough to get what we need out of life and ultimately I think that in hiding myself it it created a very good business case in my mind that who I am doesn't matter and that's not real or true and I've spent the lack what had us running into each other is. That I feel like I've come out over and over again. But I've also talked a lot about being out at work I say all of this with great privilege the the privilege of running my own business. So There's no boss to fire me for being trans.
Kat Kibben: I Write the policy I decide how this is going down I can fire someone for misgendering me if I want to like I have all the power in the world. But that's also open to my eyes to the great privilege that is and and what it feels like for other people and so that's been kind of the addition to my business. The new thing that I've done. For so much of my career I didn't want to be the gay person I wanted to be good and now I acknowledge that I can be good and I can be good in everything that I am and that's really I think probably what brought me to this conversation with you.
Joanne Lockwood: Awesome I'm just listening to you there. There's there's so much of a saying there that is so relatable and ah yeah, so so insightful and I just pick up what you said you're traveling the country. Um I know I've seen some of your postings on Linkedin Facebook.
Kat Kibben: Are.
Joanne Lockwood: Just explain what do you mean by traveling the country. How did that start.
Kat Kibben: I was gonna say people are like you think I like went for a trip. No I took on a much bigger journey. So the backstory behind it is that my mom got really sick a few years ago she has rheumatoid arthritis she was in the military for 25 years retired um, saved up every single day off I remember she had six months of vacation days when she retired she retired six months early because she had never once taken time and within two years she was 100% disabled ah her arthritis.
Kat Kibben: Rheumatoid arthritis makes your bones very sharp and brittle and what happened is she was pulling up her sheets one night and ripped every single tendon in both of her hands and I realized that we can save every penny every minute. And it will not change our ability to enjoy it at the end There's no right time to live your life now is the only answer and I had lived my whole life with this rigor around this then that this this working and then this living and I realize that they both have to happen at the same time. And in the years of therapy and coaching and everything else. It took to convince me that I was actually allowed to do this because you know this is like I breakcking a lot of rules I bought a van I converted it into an Rv and I've been traveling the country for the last year running my business speaking training. Ah, teaching people how to write job postings from everywhere in the country because remote means remote you can live anywhere and I've done. It.
Joanne Lockwood: And it just means. Ah ah, an internet connection from somewhere doesn't it over three G Five G satellite if you can hook up to the it to the net then you're in on you.
Kat Kibben: Um, maybe.
Kat Kibben: Yeah, but on the same hand and I know you know this feeling. It also means I experience a lot of different places and it's another dimension of learning how to live out loud because I can't just hide in my apartment and you don't even realize how much you hide in your apartment until you can't. Hide in your apartment or I guess you can, but there's wheels and windows and you have to move it every once but the fridge isn't very big. You won't last long Forre hungry.
Joanne Lockwood: You have to go shopping eventually and you can't get an easy delivery because they're not sure we will be ah now second tree.
Kat Kibben: You get any delivery. You do not have an address.
Joanne Lockwood: Past a water tap or something. But.
Kat Kibben: Ah, it's an interesting you learn a lot of things that you can't do without an address which is a whole other dimension of just realization and and again like you you have to live presently and with people there's There's not a lot of separation. You can do.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Joanne Lockwood: When we when we're chatting before we went live. You were talking about your realization of need for an anchor point or something to hang on to that because you're traveling your mobile. You're moving around you.
Kat Kibben: In this lifestyle.
Joanne Lockwood: Constantly changing your location. Stability is not there. You realize combining that with your gender transition of Gender identity. The flux of that you found that that this your psychological safety of mental Health is being impacted by not having this kind of. Anchor this cramp on on side of the mountain you can hang on to.
Kat Kibben: Yeah, you know I think it's twofold right? It's the burnout that comes from constant decision making not just for physical. Well-being do I have food do I have water. But this second dimension of am I safe here which you don't have to do when you're going from your house to a store and back and you can go to the bathroom before you leave you can you don't wait until you get home right. There are just a lot of different decisions that I didn't have to make before and it didn't really hit me until I went to somewhere where people don't give you weird looks and so I was just outside of New York city and I caught myself running out of a bathroom. Wow. I was washing my hands and I heard someone flush and and I caught myself like slamming the sink and and trying to like drive my hands very quickly and run and the person didn't react to me at all and what I realized is that it's the exhaustion of fear over time and I can't even imagine what it's like. For trans people who are worried about what their employer is seeing. They're worried about their job. Stability they're worried about coming out to other people how that might feel because as much as I I know that I've experienced this over time. We don't think about it.
Kat Kibben: A lot and we don't think about what it means when your survival is on the line not just to go to the bathroom and not just for literal survival but your survival and your your paycheck right? The the things that help you survive every day.
Joanne Lockwood: Um.
Joanne Lockwood: For people living say in the U K and we think we got it pretty tough as trans people here. Um, just can you explain because you're living in the us if you don't mind me saying you're trans masculine nonbinary assign female at birth and your your identification your id. Drive a nice passport social security. All these is currently still in your assigned female at birth name. So you you sent to me before went live about the the risk you have of being in the wrong space is that you could be arrested or you worse you could be.
Kat Kibben: Yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Experienced violence by people trying to evict you or or take law into their own hands. So that's something we don't really have in the Uk I know people are frightened sometimes and they're cautious about bathrooms but not to the extent you described I don't think.
Kat Kibben: Yeah I I personally have been pulled out of bathrooms by Bouncers I have um, had people's husbands wait outside of the bathroom and I know people who. And ah and I've read enough headlines to add fear. Add fuel to the fear of people who were literally beaten up outside of bathrooms because they thought there was a air quote a guy going in the girls bathroom as a.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Kat Kibben: And the the joke I make even though it's not funny. Is you know? do you have a men's and a women's restroom in your house like is there's are you just the fanciest person in the world that you have a fancy potty for everyone at your house because that's how I live and I don't know what you think these think's about to happen. But.
Joanne Lockwood: Man.
Kat Kibben: It's it is this constant questioning in my mind of just wondering if I'm going to be okay and that question alone is enough to make me never want to be outside at all.
Joanne Lockwood: I can relate to that. It's even though my life is so much simpler now than I've transitioned you know you talked about earlier about having this gap between 1 person and the other person is this duality of life. We have to cover mask. High part of your identity and that double thinking it to do in every conversation I've exchanged that simplicity of thinking that simplicity of life for another complication where I'm always got 1 eye 1 ear on that threat. You know, maybe maybe as humans. We've always had this fight flight or freeze. Part of our bodies. That's always sometimes that adrenalines kicking in that hyper awarenessreness to threat is now there which inherently causes our stress levels to rise means we're probably doing damage to our health by being in that constant of anxiety but I I to certain extent I don't feel the. Threat of violence or the threat of being arrested I'm more worried about a flashpoint someone screaming pointing the finger or making a big deal of it. So I try to minimize myself try to sneak and sneak out without looking sneaky if that makes sense. Yeah, you don't want to appear shifted by by by being too careful. Do you.
Kat Kibben: More.
Joanne Lockwood: Got a smile. You've got to interact you got to you got to sort of be the person who they're expecting you to be in the bathroom so that must be really complex as someone who you have a deep Voice. You've been on tea for a while testosterone for a while so you you don't have your your birth voice anymore. So you must.. It must be really hyperware because you've got to you've got to a blend in in a female restroom yet. You don't present in a very I Hope you don't mind me saying so you don't look very feminine which I hope is a compliment.
Kat Kibben: It's me I like thank you. That's both good to me that that's how I like to live my life. This is the first time in my entire life I've looked in the mirror and not hated the person on the other side and I also.
Joanne Lockwood: I was a comfort. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kat Kibben: Was socialized as a female for my entire life which means I was taught to not make too much noise to be pleasant to be kind to be gentle and loving in all of these things and it's.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Kat Kibben: Fascinating to wander the expectations of others based on how they see me and I never once realized it until this period of my life. So when I had the long curly hair and everything I fit right in I got it I played the part they got me no one could spot me. You know, then the next phase of my life I cut my hair off and and people started but I still had a very high pitched voice big smile. My face looked different. There are a million different dimensions and when I started my transition. What was fascinating to me is when I pass when I pass mail people treat me differently I remember the first time it happened while I was traveling in fan life. So like you mentioned I in December and this is something I'm open about I've been on testosterone for 2 years as of december.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Kat Kibben: And the first time I passed was when I was in van life and I remember because people were being so nice to me and I was like why are people being so helpful I'm talking like it was like the seas parted when I walked down things and and people are holding doors and and then they were like.
Joanne Lockwood: The.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Kat Kibben: Thanks sir and I realized it was white male privilege I was experiencing for the first time in my life and so I think there's just this complicated all these complicated perceptions that play into it too of gender and socialization and then when you experience it? What the other side has and and.
Joanne Lockwood: Okay.
Kat Kibben: And the realization when they realize that you're not what they thought you were and what happens to someone's brains when their expectations get rattled right? There's just oh many pieces and it ah even without knowing what's happening in their mind exactly.. It's always happening in my mind.
Joanne Lockwood: Um, this whole social contract to agenda and our gender roles how we behave to each other is so complex and the hardest bit I found transitioning myself was having to unlearn as you mentioned having to unlearn all these things you've been given the expectations. And it's not like when you're growing up because when you're growing up, you're learning. You're not unlearning, but in this post transitional during transition. You've got to try and forget all these habits or these traits you have to relearn but you think but why do I have to play this game because. But actually it's because you want to fit in you want to be part of society. You want to be accepted as who you are in your head therefore you've got to play the the social construct agenda and the other way around. Um and it's it. It can be quite ah I'm going to say the word fuck. It's a mind. Fuck isn't it. It. It really does mess with your head and. Just like you when you said someone called you sir, it's extremely validating when someone holds the door open or they carry your bag up the stairs or say you first or sorry Madam didn't mean to butt in in front of you or just something like that you go oh wow Thank you so much. You've seen you actually seen me. You seen me the inside me and I think wow it is so magical when that happens isn't it.
Kat Kibben: Yeah, and you know when when you said the part about fitting in I think that's something that I I have a unique experience with that for a lot of dimensions. But I mentioned I was an army brat when I was a kid. And moved 13 times before I graduated high school I am a professional fit inner like that that was literally I had to do that to survive as a kid and so coming out is further complicated by this belief that I have to be liked by everyone and that I have to. Fit into these environments and when the truth is like we don't have to belong everywhere. But in the spaces that we choose to belong like we have to live out loud and I think that's the hardest part when you again, no matter who you are I think we are conditioned not to stand out.
Joanne Lockwood: He.
Kat Kibben: We're told to fit in. That's that capitalism benefits off of us believing the same things that everyone else does but that system hates us and so it's almost like a rejection of that system say I don't have to belong everywhere I want to belong in spaces where I'm loved and and embraced and.
Joanne Lockwood: Um.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, celebrated as's a great word embraced and celebrated for who we are not for who we're not and that's that's where the magic happenss isn't it.
Kat Kibben: Celebrated.
Kat Kibben: For not pretending anymore right? I I think the people that I feel the most understood by in my life are the people who acknowledge that I spent my whole life pretending to be something you know I will never forget being I I couldn't have been.
Joanne Lockwood: Here again.
Kat Kibben: More than nine or ten years old looking in the mirror and saying I am an ugly girl I I'm such a cute boy but I am an ugly girl and only having that and like being a teenager is hard enough. You know you add in this layer of like but I'm not the thing I'm supposed to be and I don't even look like what I think I'm supposed to look like and there's just so many layers that if you make it here where you and I are sitting to be able to live out loud where so many people today I think because of the people came before us. Have the opportunity to live out loud like we are badass motherfuckers like we did not land here by accident and that's why I will choose to live out loud. That's why I choose to talk about my experience even though sometimes I have those moments like so.
Joanne Lockwood: A.
Kat Kibben: Well too much like I'm still working it out in my brain but I'm willing to admit that I'm still working it out in my brain because it means that someone else might think but might know they have permission to actually live.
Joanne Lockwood: And it's interesting. You talk about that puberty and and trying to come to terms with that. That's that you back then I don't know about you but I I found at the age of 49 having another puberty in a different direction was also a tricky experience not just for me. But. For my wife for people around me I was there in in in short dresses. My boobs out. Um, go clubing and partying like it was 1999 and all like my wife's going ahead of it. You're nearly fifty. What are you playing at you're not 19 anymore. But you kind of you got to go through that second puberty. In the same way you went through the first one to discover who you are again who am I I've got to I got to break up those rules and rebuild this identity. So I am now and I it does tear do that testosterone do that to you does it get I want to? ah.
Kat Kibben: Oh my god live in a van Jo I was not the plan I know you look at me and you see the masculinity. But seriously if you asked me two years ago do you want to go camping I would laugh in your face I would laugh in your face and now I lived outside. For like weeks at a time you know I I almost think there's we call it puberty and it it does feel like puberty in many of the hormonal ways. But on the other side. It's this rediscovery of what you like without the rules of gender trying to confine and box you in i. And to like love things that many people see as inherently masculine and to not take any shit about it or to adapt or conform because of your safety and 1000000 other reasons that we adapt to this world.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I can say relate to that and you're right? It is once you take those constraints off of you and and you realize that the world is just full of bullshit and and it's about forcing you to comply to fit into the the government and the structure getting in line getting a queue. To control kind of the matters to behavior they should behave so that people are kind of malleable in in Society. Once you realize you can change the fundamental identity of who you are the rules in in the whole of life are up for grabs. Yeah I'm not saying I want to be anarchic or or ah oppose the government on the infrastructure. But I now know. I Can now see them for what they are. Yeah, we can use the matrix analysis to film and how we we we live in this world ah of of control by people and how we can actually sort of step back and go yeah I see what this all is now this is this is just an invention by by Humanity and I don't have to play that game anymore.
Kat Kibben: Yeah, the rules aren't real. You know I'll never forget I think it was a coaching session and I said something and she was just like is that real who who made up the rule and if you can't name them. It's made up you know and and I actually can't name any rules right? like unless you're reading like a Commonwealth Guideline or you know that the law those are made up by someone who will hold you accountable for that. But not many of those guide your joy not many of those regulate your dreams.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Kat Kibben: You know and what feels good to you I was actually just on a presentation and teaching about pronouns and I was explaining that it's like a resonance like when you hear a gong go off and it has this note and for some people that's beautiful and for other people they hate it and that resonance. Is what I've discovered in this and that joy has resonance in my life and and when I hit those spots I can feel that vibration of goodness and for so long I just went off of everyone else's roadmap like that sounds good to me sounds good to me sounds good to me and for the first time in my life been like no no hell no I will not wear that dress to your wedding and I'm gonna live like this and yes, many ah many people before I before I set my own boundaries. Yes I would wear dresses as and be people's brides madeids long flowy purple dress. That's all I'm gonna say.
Kat Kibben: Um, like what we we say? Yes, we just say yes because of some rules and then we're like wait wait a minute.
Joanne Lockwood: Ah, yeah, ah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah expectations. So You know I left school I joined I I joined ah the Royal Air force in the Uk I Ah did that for a few years I had to earn money I had to have a combination then like that I wanted to get married then I went to have children I had to pay for the house pay for the children. Pay for school pay for college pay for everything else and suddenly you run this convey about anything. How should I get here. I'm not I'm not unhappy and I never I Never I would never say my life was unhappy but I didn't know I could be happier that I was missing something I didn't realize what that as you put it. The gap was between.
Kat Kibben: And.
Joanne Lockwood: Where I was and where I had to be or needed to be and it's yeah, really interesting what you say there and and when you say about this resin of the are the right pronouns it is yeah unsolicited correct gendering is such a validation and someone says Madam sir into this sir.
Kat Kibben: Yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Say she they call me love or something other that all sudden every time I hear it. It's her. Oh Wow and because you're almost pause for the the bracing of the wrong gender coming out, You're almost like rigid with dying. You're going to get it Wrong. You're going. Oh you didn't oh Wow. Thank you? Oh That's amazing. Thank you And. I Love that the resonance that resonance of it being perfectly for you? yeah.
Kat Kibben: Yeah, well and I think that allows us space because our fear costs us a lot. You know being scared constantly washing your hands and running out or.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Kat Kibben: Standing in the stall a little too long waiting for everybody to leave. You know those minutes they don't they seem minute and they are in the big picture of how we live our lives but the cost is the resonance of fear. It's the vibration of it. It's the belief that we shouldn't be here and that's not.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Kat Kibben: Good for us. That's why I love learning from Alok a L Okay and like will not begin to pronounce their last name because I will butcher it but I they start with love and I think that's most Trans people.
Joanne Lockwood: Um.
Kat Kibben: Don't get to start from a place of love because we start from the rules we start from the what everyone told us to be when in truth we should just start from if we truly love like deeply loved ourselves and knew and could assume safely that every person around us. Was a good decent kind and loving being how much better our lives would be how how much better our experience would be simply because we're not constantly trying to make ourselves fit into something that does not leave that lingering good feeling.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Joanne Lockwood: Um, you said earlier about in your earlier stages in Life. You felt like you needed permission permission to be queer permission to be Trans permission to travel permission to step outside of your box and. I Would maybe even suggest permission to start a business and have a voice So How did you kind of challenge that you know limiting Belief Imposter Syndrome Whatever you want to call it. Um that you needed someone's validation to take a step forward. How did you overcome that.
Kat Kibben: Normal.
Kat Kibben: I will admit probably not in the healthiest ways and I I think it was because I required the permission because I had an attachment to money and being good. So. For me, you said you know I had to get the money to pay for the house. Do the thing to do the thing right? I thought all of my dreams relied on me being good at work and so I wanted to be good more than I wanted to be anything else and I think what I came to is that being good isn't enough for me, you know. Like being good at work just to be clear like not just like being good high level. But I mean like being good at a job is not the life legacy that I want to leave like I don't want to be like cat Kivin Best marketer ever I just love the writing.
Joanne Lockwood: Nick poops.
Kat Kibben: You know I want to I want to actually live a life where I connect with people and and I feel like I'm part of their life and they're part of mine and and so I think what it was was giving myself permission that if something. Didn't turn out if the work didn't turn out. It wasn't because of who I am it's because of the work and who I am are two separate things and so I think that's what really led me to this place where I was like it can be an and not an or situation. But it's harder than it sounds. It's the.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Joanne Lockwood: Um, yeah.
Kat Kibben: We I know you know based on the look on your face right now that other people can't see but I know that we all know that feeling of feeling like it's a choice. There's There's some choice between being who we are and fill in the blank and mostly it's your dream.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Joanne Lockwood: And as a saying isn't everything you ever desired on the other side of fear and it's about being able to take that 1 step forward realizing if you step off the edge. It's ah it's a curb not a cliff and.
Kat Kibben: And.
Joanne Lockwood: People are there that people have got your back people. Want you to win people want you to succeed but until you've taken that step you don't know the parachute is there the support's going to be there and often what we talk about here is there's no easy way back. Is there once you've made these kind of you you out out open. You've changed people's perception of you forever and you can't go back in the box. So that's the real bravery step and I I hate it when people call me brave because you're not brave at the time you're scared at the time you're worried everything's going on your head if you look back over your shoulder six years later you go. Ah, maybe I was a bit brave or foolish or foolhardy.
Kat Kibben: Yeah, you know I Actually that reminds me because when I came out as Trans That's the thing that everyone said oh you're so Brave. You're so brave and I didn't want to I I. So I wrote this post because I went to the doctor for my affirming care and I had had to change providers because I had gotten insurance except long story short I Go to my doctor and they prescribed the wrong dose like so.
Joanne Lockwood: You. So.
Kat Kibben: The needles are different sizes. There's 2 ways to dose testosterone and the needles are 2 different sizes I'll just leave it at that not to go into a whole medical thing and they kept giving me needles that were too big and so I literally would have like been poking my insides like I could have ended up with sepsis or something really bad happening to me and I got so mad. But I also realized that that like the time to sit around and be mad was a privilege in itself that there are kids out there who want gender affirming care who don't have 6 hours to sit in a Walgreens who can't argue with a doctor who don't and and. I felt for almost like I had to come out because I was so mad that I needed other people to know that this was not acceptable and and now and everyone's like man. Yeah they're all like that's so brave and very ah and I'm like no I was just real mad.
Kat Kibben: Um, I was really really scared and it should.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, and I can care what and care what you're saying about we we sitting here today have privilege. You have what I would appear to say is good mental health good source of income. Yes, you've got issues I've got issues. We've all got issues. But. You've taken control of your life and some of that took privilege to do take their control I took control of my life and I speak to other trans people today who are struggling as you say getting getting on pathways getting affirmative hormone treatments accessing surgery accessing, psychological safety and care. Changing their id having a family support There's a whole lot of things that I know I'm privileged. It wasn't easy I I had to work at it. But I I think through some of my own lived experience of personal identity I was able to. Take control of my life in the way that other people may may may not be able to. So yeah I certainly acknowledge I have a privilege and some of it may well be my my historical assignment at birth privilege that I was socialized I have a certain personality. And maybe that came from my history and I haven't lost that I freely admit that sometimes so yeah, it it is a privilege to be able to take control of your life and and change because it's it's so easy for people to say if you work hard enough. Anyone could do anything because that's that's bullshit as well. Isn't it. It's not It's not the case. Not everybody.
Joanne Lockwood: Has the same starting point and we've got to acknowledge that.
Kat Kibben: Yeah, absolutely and I I believe that living out loud is paying it forward somehow paying it forward paying it back because I recognize that I could not you and I could not sit here and have this conversation twenty years ago
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Kat Kibben: Not even you know and that's not multiple lifetimes you know that's one. It's it's not a whole life even and I I now that I'm on the other side of the fear of being out I recognize the value because. Even though we can't control all the privilege and and the things what we can do is allow a lived experience that at least gives someone access to a story that turned out different the thing that I did not have the privilege of access for at a very young age is. The idea that you can be queer and okay I learned from the media what it meant to be gay and it meant you would be killed the first trans person I ever saw on Tv was murdered and they. Now. There are a lot of other stories told there are a lot of other inputs. However, if they only get one I really hope that it's people like us right? like that. We've that that we by exposing.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Kat Kibben: Parts of ourselves that we will allow not over but right not not like using who we are for some kind of marketing pitch I don't mean it that way but by at least like opening ourselves up to have conversations like this by creating platforms where we allow other friends people to have conversations like this that truly.
Joanne Lockwood: Um.
Kat Kibben: We're we're we're using the privilege for good and.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I yeah I certainly agree with that and I think I mean I've often described myself as professionally trans and I think that's also a privilege I don't have to pretend I'm not trans I didn't have to hide myself in the thinking. Maybe when I'm in having a coffee. Maybe when I'm in the supermarket in the mor or something like that or the shopping center. Maybe then I don't want to be professionally trans but in the day job when I'm engagement companies and doing my business is actually part of my superpower. They're hiring me because I am not despite who I am and I I think also. You don't mind me saying by being out as nonbinaries and they then pronouns explicitly on your Linkedin profile and youma it or everything else. You're also saying hey I'm I'm gender nonforming I'm trans I'm I'm a non biary. You're not hiding in the shadow either by making that statement.
Kat Kibben: Yeah, you know I tell people when I do this when I talk about pronouns and I educate people you'll laugh because I have this slide and I'll I'll say I am not a Dei expert from a human being that lives.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Kat Kibben: As a nonbinary and Trans person in this world and these are the stories I Told the people I Love when the people I Love asked me how do I be better to you. This is what I told them because then my colleagues asked me how do I be better to you I call it my gay job and my day job my day job is job Posting. And I believe that they do add up to the same things both ah every bit of work I do is because I want to help people imagine a new life and whether that's a life in which they have a new job or they can be who they are Those are both worthy.
Joanne Lockwood: Me.
Kat Kibben: Of ah the time and the work and and also because I know that education and me living out loud has consequences on bottom lines as well. On actual people's lives on I'm getting a little choked up because I'm thinking about the statistic that I always talk about so.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Kat Kibben: The trevor project did some research and they say that every 45 seconds a kid between the ages of 13 and 23 who's part of the lgbt community attempts suicide and the thing that we don't talk enough about when we say attempts suicide is the questions they are asking themselves. And the questions they're asking themselves is does it matter if I'm here.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, who would miss me no who would care. Yeah, and that's the fundamental difference between being lonely and being alone and how you see yourself isn't it you if you believe you have no sense of belonging.
Kat Kibben: And that's the hardest question. Anyone can ask.
Joanne Lockwood: In anything. No one cares for you. What if I if I'm never no longer here. No one will care and that that is fundamentally I think the same story that most people who maybe survive an attempt would say and often if you can just say I care this talk you matter. Is's often what people want to hear isn't it. That's the as that. That's the that's the sad thing I had 3 3 people in my life who've taken their own life and I did 2 of them I don't understand why I don't understand why why did they think no one cared because or their their life was wasn't worth anything. I find it so hard because they were loved and ah and they're deeply missed. They're deeply missed. Um, my brother took his life. Accidentally I think when he was 18 misadventure. He ah, he suffocated on butane. In ah in ah in a bin liner. So I so I truly believe it was an accident I don't believe he intended to ah to take his life I think he just fell asleep passed out and it was too late. You couldn't stop it. But yeah, you can never ask that question once they're gone. Can you why or? what.
Joanne Lockwood: Especially when there's no note or no inclination. So yeah now I feel for what you just said there and it's yeah, it's the work that Trevor project does is amazing and I think all ourtvt huge charities around the world really do really do a valuable and and worthwhile cause.
Kat Kibben: Um, yeah, it's I don't I just.
Joanne Lockwood: Trying to protect people and give people hope. Yeah.
Kat Kibben: Hope is so fleeting in this world. It is I think it's something that we all are craving even more so over the last two years than we ever have and I think it's more important than ever that.
Joanne Lockwood: He.
Kat Kibben: Feels Cliche to say but I truly believe that my priority in my living is that I can help other people figure out how we rely on each other because when you peel back all the layers. You You can put whatever topic you want on top but the world gets to be a better place when we care a little bit more.
Joanne Lockwood: But it does it does let's ah talk about your your day Job. We've we've talked extensively about both of our gay jobs. Um, so to talk to me about your your job posting because I. I think we we did a Web article together. We've talked about this before. So I Really like to just hear your perspective on where businesses make mistakes or where people aren't thinking about enough about their recruit marketing is is effectively what we talk about here the recruit marketing they that their offer. So.
Kat Kibben: Well I think a lot of people say I want to stand out I Want to be best in class. That's a signature phrase for every business but they don't actually do the thing we want to be an inclusive organization. But the action behind it. The work isn't happening.
Joanne Lockwood: Where do people go wrong.
Kat Kibben: And so many moons ago I was a employer brand copywriter and I realized that when it comes to hiring. There are just a million variables. We don't control but the one we can is how we ask how we talk to people how we describe work and that if we create more. Openness and clarity around the work itself. We can actually create better access that we can help someone have a better life because if you hate your job you hate everything. There's very little going on in your life. That's right if you specifically hate where you have to sit for forty or more hours every single week. And so I spent the last 5 in the same way that that pronoun presentation was created by stories and experiences with others I also spent that time writing job postings and experiencing it with others and truly the best way to stand out was just by telling the truth and I was like. And the truth is what I do but like I can do this and that's what I that's what I've been doing is teaching people. How to tell the truth in a way that's actually universal instead of just doing following rules that were completely made up I'm realizing how much. Being who I am applies to my work every day as I'm explaining all this but truly, it's like telling the truth and not following the rules is actually creating better outcomes for companies around the world.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: I don't need to worry about what someone else is thinking about me I can think how I think is right and I can say that without looking over my shoulder. Okay, ah of course I care if people like what I say but I'm not worried about my job I'm not worried about people not liking me because. Are plenty of people who do like me so it's not a problem. Um I I work with a lot of organizations and yeah as you know I work into kind of ta recruitment space as well around the dni area. The biggest I constantly hear organizations say it's so hard. To find a black lawyer so hard to find women in Stem.. It's so hard to find people I'm thinking you're just asking the wrong questions you're you're fishing in the around Ponds. You're not, You're not marketing because ah, theres a bond company that it's so difficult to find a black lawyer these days in this fish field I said well. If you were a black owned firm specializing in this field I'm sure you know where to find black lawyers who specialize in this work. So It's kind of like a football analogy If You're not winning your games change the manager change the way you're doing things if you keep doing the same things with the same people you're going to get the same responses. So. How do you tackle your recruitment marketing and the job postings to break those kind of myths and and and and the way we've done things all the time.
Kat Kibben: So what I found is that they're actually using psychological tactics that are sending these people running so we need to understand the like socialization of people right? So there's a very small percentage of this world. That's told they can do anything they want. And shown over and over that they can do whatever they want and they can be successful for the rest of us we have something in our head that says well maybe that's not me and what I found is that there were tactics that everyone uses that sends people running. And it triggers something deep inside of us. Let me give 2 examples so years of experience everyone uses years of experience I need 15 years but all you're saying is I want someone fifteen years older because we know that spending time doing the exact same job. We don't do the same work. We're both cap consultants. We do wildly different work but we both have 2 years of consulting experience. It doesn't work. It's inherently ageist and it's the only way that most compensation teams know how to just like distribute people and they'll be like I want I want no experience what you're saying is I want someone young. It's cues and you don't need to say I want someone young I can read between the lines. That's what I mean by the psychological piece here's the part that's really interesting is the requirements list right? So when that list exceeds one third visually of a page. We actually see fewer women apply.
Kat Kibben: By default. Even if they have the exact same experience as the man sitting next to them. Fewer women will click apply on that job because they have the perception. They could not possibly qualify and so what we've been able to do and what? ah the work that I'm really proud of is that everything we do is based on the dei lens. In that we actually consider the psychological tactics to create the outcomes instead of just saying like don't say he she right? like. That's the obvious crap. That's the like I read a job post today that said he or she will like we it has to go beyond that. And so what we're doing is really teaching people how to describe experiences because experiences are universal skills are not.
Joanne Lockwood: I and potential and learning ability flexibility adaptability and I I beat my head against the wall. Sometimes it's not about time served It's not about what you've done for somebody else. It's about what could you do and what can you do for me.
Kat Kibben: When done it before if you've done this, you'd probably be qualified for this job. Honestly, if most job postings were just written that way if you've done this before you should apply to this job and a short list. We would have a better workforce. We would have.
Joanne Lockwood: In the future.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, but what we then rule out is people who could do that job from. They've got transferable skills. They've done a similar job but not that job so we're denying them the opportunity by saying this is the type of person we want the type of skills we want. We don't need to have.
Kat Kibben: Applicant pool.
Joanne Lockwood: You don't need to have been this person in this company before provided we we believe in your ability to to on board and and pick it up because every company is different isn't it. You know the first three months you're learning about the rule set you're learning about the people you're learning about your processes and all the kind of the language if you could learn that. You could learn the job if you've got the aptitude and and and and willingness to get stuck into it.
Kat Kibben: Yep, 1 of the easiest ways to remove bias is to create contrast right? So for example, um, it's ah well they worked at a startup and I'll ask what does someone who worked at a startup know that someone who never worked at a startup could not possibly know.
Joanne Lockwood: And.
Kat Kibben: And that's the truth and that contrast I said my superpower is asking questions I think that contrast helps someone actually understand what they're looking for and say more clearly because a lot of people. You know the internet became popular and we thought we could just copy and paste our way to to. Ah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, yeah.
Kat Kibben: Transparency honesty and speed and that's just not how things work. But.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm just I'm just trying to read the psychological cues you gave they worked in the startup so working in the chaotic environment. Um, uncertain future and poor or inconsistent management. No idea what you're going to be doing day in day out and the goalposts change frequently.
Kat Kibben: Um, that but yes.
Joanne Lockwood: And you're expected to work long hours and give all you've got with no potential into future. So is that what we're saying working the startup means.
Kat Kibben: Yeah, you don't say you worked at a startup you say you've worked in an environment where deadlines and priorities changed constantly. You know when to ask questions and how to change direction quickly.
Joanne Lockwood: So yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kat Kibben: That gets you the right person because that person when you hear that you go yes or no yes I want this? No I don't and I'd rather be honest I'd rather tell you the truth and be like no I don't want this. Then to tell you some lie or make up some buzzwords and create a little bingo card for you that you apply to so that I can tell you in six weeks no No
Joanne Lockwood: Um I Think honesty Honesty is really powerful when you're looking to recruit and I think sometimes I speak again I speak to the companies and they say well we're we're very poor at female representation. Senior leadership on the board. How do we recruit people into that position I said well be honest, tell people we're not our track record is poor. But however, we are committed to change and we're looking for people who are willing to come into this environment knowing.
Kat Kibben: Um, yeah.
Joanne Lockwood: We've got a poor track record and help us change and develop then where you you going to attract people who have some resilience who have some tenacity to get stuck in and you're not misselling the challenge they're going to face. So I think really really important to do that.
Kat Kibben: Yeah, well I Even that it's like.
Joanne Lockwood: Your you've just come up as offline I don't know if if you've it says offline to you? Okay, cool. So we'll pick that up later so we'll carry on to see what happens.
Kat Kibben: It did and then it said you're back.
Kat Kibben: Um, Ah, it's probably all these airplanes? Um, no I And even that right? So I would probably Respond. Ah, we're looking for someone who's worked in a male dominated environment and driven change in this this or this you know start to really give that context because at the end of a job posting. Someone should be able to say yes I've done this and yes I Want to do it again or no I haven't no I don't want to.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, yeah.
Kat Kibben: And if there's an education gap that we can fill as you have to learn this again just telling the truth 9 times out of 10 if somebody shows me a job posting and says is this good or not I say I don't know because I don't know if it's telling the truth if you just tell the truth. It's better than most people's.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, because it is kind of like demo mode isn't it on ah on one of these video games. You know, not actual game footage. That's what we're trying to do. We're trying to but both sides are trying to bluff and bluster their way to either be hired or Hire. We're trying to create this sort of like false. Yeah, it is sales and marketing. But we at both parties are trying to sell themselves to the other and hope they accept.
Kat Kibben: But we cannot create equitable workplaces if we never identify what we need I Truly believe the more I do this the more I see that understanding minimum requirements and what it takes to drive Success. Is a leadership skill and you cannot be successful as a leader if you cannot do those 2 things.
Joanne Lockwood: I agree I and I think that inclusive leadership and investing in our leadership tier is is one of the best investments organizations can make get that right? get the right people in the backbone of the business then you can create great teams and and nurture great culture. I think if we if we keep hiring people who haven't got who haven't invested in leadership training Empathy Eq Cultural Intelligence humility vulnerability all the kind of skills we know cognitive bias all these kind of things we don't invest in in people to do that then our teams will never. Will never thrive in my opinion.
Kat Kibben: Living out loud is a consequence of a great condition. It's not bravery. It's knowing that you can be safe and that's I think what you just described as the education that it takes for it leader to be a safe positive leader for their team.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, there to support the team not to lead the team as such but to be to to get the best out of the people that they are looking after or encouraging nurturing to to deliver more to deliver better. Yeah for sure. Ah, can't believe we've been yacking away for almost an hour now and it's a bit absolutely fascinating one day we will meet somewhere somewhere. Um and I'm really looking forward to that so cat tell us tell the audience how they get hold of you get a bit more detail about. The type of customers you work with or or the type of business you're looking for be really interested engineer that.
Kat Kibben: Yeah, so my full name is Kat Kibbenrina and I'm the only Kat Kibbenrina Kibben in the world. So if you spell my name right? You will find me if you spell my name wrong. You will find a Navy priestess and you'll know you're in the wrong place because we don't look alike.
Joanne Lockwood: So.
Kat Kibben: And what I do what my day job is is that I teach people how to write better job postings and so if you have that on your list as I want to overhaul my job postings or you're looking for training options that make your recruiters better facilitators of a great hire. You should call us so my company is called. 3 years media 3 like the number all spelled out ears like the ones on your head and you know how to spell media 3 earsmedia.com is my company and it's named after 2 dogs with 4 ears and I'll tell you the story if you book a call.
Joanne Lockwood: I.
Joanne Lockwood: I ah I should have asked you that at the beginning nice so I could get the story of no, that's intriguing and I hope our our listeners ah make contact and and and find the story about the 3 years so yeah that's really good. Um, so Linkedin you're Linkedin, you're welcome. Ah, oh excuse me, you're welcoming people to connect with you on there say hello reach out and you've got your website as well s but yes, the the van life. Yeah, it's it's a fascinating story and.
Kat Kibben: Yes, and of course Instagram if you want the van life. That's the the pictures that you can see.
Joanne Lockwood: I'm quite proud to have been following your journey for the last twelve to eighteen months since you've been on the road. Um, yeah, um, experience some of the highs and lows and some of the reality of that with you is. It's been really fascinating so cat. Thank you It's been awesome. Um, let me just ah. Say goodbye to our listeners and ah wrap up the show so where are we now where's my show notes gone here. We go I'm I'm all I'm all I'm all that all over the place. So a huge thank you to cat firstly and a huge thank you to you? the listeners for tuning in and getting to the end I really appreciate you. Taking the time to listen to the whole podcast. Please do subscribe ah please subscribe to keep updates on future episodes of the inclusion Bites podcast that b I t e yes, tell your friends and colleagues share the love share the link I have a number of other amazing Can there be any more amazing guest I don't know but we'll try a number of more amazing guests lined up. I'm sure you'll be inspired by over the next few weeks months and hopefully years and also if you'd like to be a guest I'd love to have you on the show and also I'd love any feedback and suggestions to Jo Dot Lockwood C Changeap and dot code itk let me know if you like the show. Let me know if you you hate it. Let me know how I can improve it all feedback is welcome. My name is Joanne Lockwood and it's been an absolute pleasure to host his podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.